Ken Should come with a whiteboard next time. or release an illustration of all the things he thinks of. I like how he always brings a physical/imaginary aspect to the talk. Allows one to rotate ideas. PS it is quite interesting how "Cartesean"/Geometric some of the analogies are. The general language of the discourse
it is blowing my mind how it seems I am contemplating and discussing with others topics that seem to be covered in every new video that comes out. Its like I am doing homework and the teacher is giving review lessons. I am not intending to do this but it is occurring. Love this channel
I’m currently reading Nishitani and I’d love to see if you guys can find some commonality between his description of Sunyata as “absolute openness” and the stance of learned ignorance that allows the world to open up to Socrates.
This might not be the right place to say this, but I sincerely hope Dr. Vervaeke considers at some point speaking to members of non-Christian faith traditions. I would particularly like to hear him talk to Western Yogis, practitioners of Advaita Vedanta, Buddhists (perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi or Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen Rinpoche?) and, of course, Moslems. I get this eerie feeling that there is a Christian coalition building that is starting to believe that Dr. Vervaeke's consistent conversation with them is building some kind of setting where Cognitive Science is "proving" the "truth" of Christianity and the "falsity" of other traditions. I'm well aware that I need to sit with and consider my own discomfort and its significance. If any of you know of good channels or blogs with 4E cog sci people or people who think in terms of the concepts in AFTMC and After Socrates doing the sort of thing I describe, I'd like to know about them. I will try in my own way, but my podcast/channel is pretty weak, let's be honest.
Hi John, my mind made several connections to psychological types by Jung, specifically thinking, feeling, intuiting, and sensing as ordered in the video title. If this mapping is correct, Jung is further explaining the introverted and extraverted attitudes of each function, which may be correlated to the inspirational and aspirational versions of the four leaps you mentioned. For example, both you and David experience reason as inspirational and love as aspirational. Jung would say that adopting an introverted thinking attitude would make feeling shift towards extraversion. I will also add, "account of" would be your dominant (sometimes called hero) function (reason-thinking), "account for" would be your auxiliary (sometimes called good parent) function (faith-intuiting), "account to" would be your inferior (sometimes called anima) function (love-feeling). And both David and you share the same topology. I am aware that you criticize Jung for taking a Kantian point of view, and you view these leaps as a co-creation of self and reality. However, his formulation could still be helpful.
THIS made me happy. On point! 🙌🏽🌟✊🏽 Sorry, I am behind on things because ai have priorities. Not cross posting on my instagram but if you knowC you know♾️
I'd love next time to hear the distinction between "goodness" and "The Good"/"The One" discussed a bit. Why does Plato use that word specifically? Thanks gentlemen 🙏
26:55 - Consolidating different arrangement of notions I struggle with that as well, My suggestion: 1. Try and reduce the "notions" to a small group. 2. Collect all the relevant arrangements of those notions. 3. Make new notions for each arrangement, new notions must be orthogonal to the previous notions. 4. Repeat the process on the new notions. 5. If Loop doesn't end, that is, you always come up with new notions, and their number does not decrease, Consider those your "predicate notions", and construct axioms :) Personally I think the notion of "All possible Intentions" might be of/the first one/s. Followed by the notion of "Sub Group Variants as a product of Analysis". Followed by the notion of "Observation space of orthogonal intentions of a system" .
Suggestion. I wonder what would happen if you guys experimented with a slightly different format where it is allowed to be silent for a while, process what somebody said and gather thoughts before speaking, like with japanese tea ceremony. A little bit like with your After Socrates demonstration. It might turn out that the conversation is less chaotic and more from the heart. Now, I know pauses might be frowned upon in such a medium like YT... but what if it works? Just a thought. ^^ In Pageaus terms maybe, it would allow to feel into the angel or spirit overlighting the conversation more smoothly.
19:26 You are talking about Gödel’s incompleteness theorem. These always map so well onto the foundations of mathematics, which is not that surprising it grew out of theology, it’s the one place square in the center of sciences where the medieval mindset has somewhat been preserved. "We know that God exists because mathematics is consistent and we know that the devil exists because we cannot prove the consistency." ruclips.net/video/FHsvGZzuYcY/видео.html For example the existence of an infinite set is equivalent to the consistency of arithmetics, just like the ground of being which itself is not one of the beings, that makes being possible. I would wager that Jonathan Pageaue was explicitly inspired by formal logic and set theory maybe via his brother or maybe he rediscovered it intuitively? For example: talking about the parts constituting an object as a leap of faith = quantifying over natural numbers, is weaker than quantifying over sets of natural numbers (second order number theory) etc.
37:07 sometimes it’s appropriate to jump off the 300 foot cliff. In the context of a desperate experiment it’s perhaps appropriate. Normalizing every desperate experiment though is disaster. However let’s assume desperate experiments became normalized, a new desperate experiment might rise. Crawling to the edge of the cliff peaking over the side and dramatically backing off, being left to tremble in terror at the sight of any body of water eventually becoming dehydrated…
Interesting to see how the concept of transcendence become more rounded here. Up, down and into but also" to" and "for" what sur-"rounds" us, as in circumscribing but also in a way circum- stancing/ standing us?!
the 'leap' discussed at 38:43, being both a leap and being carried, is found quite succinctly in the mythologem of the invisible bridge, where one takes a step out from a precipice and lo, there is ground carrying you across.
Yes, the more we leap into the virtues, the more opposition we will face from others. I was foolish enough to believe that if I wanted to live a life of wisdom that it would make my life fuller and easier, to be that guy who solves all problems. However, a true life of wisdom does not make us rulers over men, but servants of The Good, True, and Beautiful. Yet from our upbringing and history, our hearts yearn to be on top of the social hierarchy, and a half hearted attempt of chasing after the virtues produces no fruit. That is why wisdom, faith, and love demand a "leap".
I am genuinely curious how many pages a whole podcast equates to if im reading along with cc on 🤔 I genuinely feel i learn something new every time i listen/watch/read with each new episode. Appreciate your time JV ❤🍄
I keep thinking about how this dynamic could be captured in for example a social media platform, search algorithm or decentralized organisations in order to fit the way we orient to reality instead of corpos orienting us to consume goods... I've been giving this a whole lot of attention but it's hard for me to grasp and put into code. If someone else reading this have been thinking along the same lines I'd be very interested to hear your take on it!
18:20 in the same way we shape our hand in the shape of a glass as we reach for the glass along with the appropriate posture of our back and speed we thrust our arm to the way the arm is bent, I wonder if there’s something here analogous as it relates to each form of leap. I’m perhaps having difficulty expressing what I’m thinking but maybe someone could help me and expand on it.
Rarely do I critique one of your vids but the ads were way too much and made it hard to get caught up in the conversation. 2 long ads every 3 minutes is too much. Otherwise this is another gift as always.
I wonder how this sense of through-line can be tied into the Ulrichian treatment of esse which introduces a crisis, i.e., what will be our response to this mysterious gift of the through-line, to put it rather clumsily. To say it another way, what does it ask of us given its donative nature?
I'd love to get into the misology more. Falling short of participating in the virtues all the time, it might actually be easier to grasp their goodness vis-a-vis where it fails. Ironically that which is easier is through the most pain. And the hardest thing to grasp is directly into the right relation.
Amazing! You are finding ways and means and words to explore/grasp the particularities of parts of the inner world I never thought was possible. These are like hidden paths (I also sense they are ancient paths! and I am walking in dense fog!) connecting to one another in many meaningful ways, you also teach me what tell-tale signs to look out for. Philosophy always attracted and hugely frustrated me. Your conversations are leading me somewhere.....!
This conversation is on the edge of my understanding and knowledge in philosophy as a layman, but I managed to gain a lot of insight and appreciation for what is. I love how you are mapping the areas of reality that are loosely called "spiritual" and making it digestible for the current left brain hemisphere dominant zeitgeist. While "democracy" and personal freedom seem to be so dominant in our age, I couldn't help but think when you mentioned the inner tyrant over the self, that the meaning crisis often inflicts this inner invisible tyranny, as people cannot cope with the lack of direction and subsequently lack of relevance.
I got a lot out of this conversation, thank you to all three of you for offering your hearts and minds to us listeners. At several points I was left with a desire for the question of the "jumping off point" to be addressed in relation to the different leaps. My sense is that the leap which an individual is called to take is a consequence of whatever habitual patterns in which they are entangled. For example, when entangled in a pattern of self-doubt or spiritual doubt, the need to take a leap of faith may arise. Or when entangled in a pattern of isolation, the need to take a leap of love may arise. It seems that the act of leaping and the consequential liberation necessarily transcend the conditions from which the individual leapt. In fact the act of leaping and consequential liberation transcend even the type of leap that was taken. Yet it is the subjective condition of the individual who is caught in habitual patterns which necessitate the differentiation of "types of leaps."
I am big fan of Dr.Vervaeke, his view is equally treating life and learnings as harmony with respect to people's well being that is warmth in it. Cognitive science can do it is amazing intellectual care, which I would like to learn from him. Thanksgiving to his presence in RUclips video!
Could there not be a 5th leap? The leap of life- the leap into life which I think is well paired with each of the other leaps and for Me, it adds reality and could give way to understanding them all. And I felt like 4 wasn't quite there yet and was missing a point , and adding Life as a 5th , almost like a core aspect. I have drawn a diagram and it makes more sense to me . Plus none of these would be possible, I don't think, without life. 🤔 Life including the mind body soul and spirit and then what is beyond spirit like consciousness. That to me is fulfillment of the whole and the whole as a sum of its parts each having become whole. You need life to make these moves. Walking by faith , walking in love, walking with body, walking using reason and walking as life works.
I like this idea of the leap into life, but to me it seems like more of a meta-leap than one of the other four. If I can assume that if one needs to "leap into life" then there is some aspect of death or "anti-life" that they are overcoming. I think that the negatives of the four leaps are all aspects of anti-life.
I love listening to all the deep abstract philosophical discussion, but it leaves me with a desire for change and/or transformation. This generally leads to the very practical question What do I do now? I think I'm starting to realize that may be a question wrongly asked, that phrasing the question in that way fails to really take in all that is being said, perhaps the better question to ask myself is How am I living? or How can I improve how I'm living? Improve in the sense of better seeking the True, the Good, and the Beautiful. I believe your typical response to What do I do now? is the ecology of practice response, which I never felt directly answered the question, but I'm starting to think that's because it was the wrong question. When I ask How can I improve how I'm living? the ecology of practice response makes a lot more sense. Did any of that make sense? Do you think it's possible to give concrete examples of how these leaps unfold in your everyday life? Or is this more of a tool of teaching the language/concepts? Is it possible to pull the abstraction down to something concrete without giving something up? Is this more just something you need to experience yourself to know it? Really appreciate all your work, and would love if you and Ian McGilchrist would talk together again. I have been listening to a lot Dr. McGilchrist lately and he has a lot of converging points and shared language.
I've felt the same tension within myself after listening to these types of conversations for years. I've not figured the answer to the 'what do I do now?' question. But my viewpoint lately has been that we should do 3 things after listening to these sorts of conversations: 1: Do everything we can to live out the truths discussed in the video on a daily basis. 2: Share what we've learnt from these conversations with others. If you find the conversations interesting then you'll probably find within yourself the impulse to share them with others anyway. 3: Read deeper on the content discussed, research more in related areas, and ponder the topics discussed more deeply. That's what I try to do, anyway. Hope this helps😁😁
Hello John. Im begining to consider myself post christian as ive worked on integrating that past and the language ive been imbued with through my upbringing within its narrative, but on this path i have only become more certain that christianity is not something i can participate in. Over the past few years i have seriously engaged with the taoist texts, the tao te ching and the Zhuangzi, and i have found myself enamored by the beauty of the narrative while also finding peace in what i perceive as the sort of agnosticism that taoism presents in relation to narratives altogether. I have seen video after video within the neoplatonic revolution in this little corner of the internet, but i want to know more about its zen counterpart. The through line i find to be spoken about often, however, not being from that culture, i do not know how to filter the woo from the true so to speak and any recommendations as far as literature or important figures would be greatly appreciated.
A tremendously significant development of ideas here, which is absolutely essential to understanding the unity of being and Transcendence as integral to each other and serving the subtleties of exploring unitive ontology of participation. Great work rendered delightful by Ken's grin and generally highly sensitive treatment by all . Thanks!!!
Around the 31ish minute mark, i think Love maps onto Beauty, Faith onto The Good, and Reason onto Truth, but in any model I've done previously I've always put love in the center of the triad of truth goodness beauty. I also appreciate John's comment on how these can be mixed and shuffled.
Would love to hear more about the primacy of beauty, because I was painting the whole time I was listening to this! To me, finding myself in right relation to nature, through photography originally, has been the defining aim of my life. These days, I don't take as many pictures, but I still find myself in the exploration of beauty through music and art (which is still inspired by nature and the time I spend in it). Thank you gentlemen!
Beautiful! Been waiting for this for a long time and boy was it worth the wait. Too much to review from one video but absolutely loved the discussion around each Leap. Thanks Ken, David & John🙏
Rosemary Desjardins, her text "Plato and the Good" (Brilll, 2004), explores Plato's understanding of dialectics as explored in his dialogue "Philebus". She shows how each four levels of consciousness, as displayed by Plato's Divided Line in the Republic, is a kind of leap of rational intuition, leading to a more whole understanding of the world. Vervaede's Relevance Realization has a very good place in that. She shows how each level of understanding on the Divided Line presents us something more Real, Causal, and as a Criterion for lower levels of realty consciousness, precisely because what the soul finds relevant in lower levels of consciousness explains much that is real, but, she says later in her book, it always needs revision based on new relevant insights at each level. D C Schnidler cited her work in his "Plato's Critique" so he's familiar it. I would like to see what he thinks about applying your Relevance Realization to her understanding of the mechanics of Plato's dialectics. Along with Schindler's "Plato's Critique", her book is one of my lasting fundamental texts for understanding Plato. Also, Later in her text she tried to apply the way in which dialectics impacts the true philosopher, in their "divine mania", the four mentioned by Plato in his "Phaedrus" the mania of Love, Prophecy, Poetry, and Healing. It's such a great work, I could try to find a copy and send it your way.
John, you hit on a problem around 26:20 that I've struggled with endlessly. "Reshuffling the mappings" seems more and more possible the more universal/transcendental a concept is. E.g: I've pondered a mapping between the 3 Orders of worldview and the 3 transcendentals that goes: Narrative - Beauty Normative - Goodness Nomological - Truth But I could see how various switches could justifiably be made. I've come across the same problem with the 4 Ps. So part of my current project is to collect various plausible mappings and initiate a discussion around their pros and cons. Great discussion so far!
Socrates didn't actually say "I know that I know nothing". Or anything even similar. It's a common misquote. The closest we get is when he was asked why he seemed to be wiser than someone he was talking to. He said: "I seem, then, in just this little thing to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know I do not think I know either." That's it. - wiki.
Bloody fantastic, you remind me of how great philosophy can be Also, since you are looking for suggestions, I heard Ian Mcgilchrist speak about how metaphor is not a sort of fancy elaboration of language but must rather be understood as the fondation of language. I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
As I listened to the discussion on Kant, Graham Harman's object-oriented ontology hearkened to me. Regarding philosophy as a (general) whole's move to Hegel's immanent dialectic after Kant's performative contradiction, his take (as of 5 years ago in the talk this is quote from) is that Kant actually didn't go far enough: "I think that should not have been done, I think that was one of the great missed opportunities in the history of philosophy, that moment right after. What should have happened is instead of saying we need to get rid of Kant's stupid thing in itself, we needed to say Kant's thing in itself is great, the problem is he limits it to humans. Oh we poor humans are so tragic and finite that we can't get at things the way they really are, we're trapped in our categories and it's based on time. No all objects are trapped! When fire burns, cotton fire does not make contact with all the aspects of the cotton, it makes contact with a caricature of the cotton, a translation of the cotton....everything is relational but not directly....nothing that touches anything makes direct contact with anything else." This seems to resonate with the talk of aspects. The tension between making full contact and never being able to truly make contact. Is this perhaps another paradox/pairing that is missing in the synthesis? We are contacted, but can never contact fully in return. What about those objects we are trying to find a throughline for? Are they "seeking" contact as well? It seems to me that playing with contact/non-contact may help define the tension between appearance/reality, part/whole, relative/absolute. And thanks so much for affording second- hand participation in the fire!
The preparation of this great Stoic, Catholic mystic was arduous. And necessarily so, the message she was fashioned to give to the world is for the hearty and strong.
We inhabit a universe that is constrained by physical laws as well as unseen moral laws. Individuals and cultures who consistently align themselves with these laws prosper, and those who disregard them suffer unnecessarily. William James stated that religion consists in the belief that there is an unseen order to the universe, and that our supreme wellbeing comes from aligning ourselves to it.
There is an organizing principle at work in the cosmos and at each level of emergence, a new transcendent property begins expressing itself and testing state space as if it were looking for value or meaning. We are part of this process and we have no idea where it came from or where it will end. There are many who will give an explanation depending on what they are connected to but who is correct? How can we answer a question like that? Experience is a nebulous thing, we can only wonder. There are miracles everywhere you look, you just have to allow yourself to return to the mindful condition of childhood to see them. They are there whether you perceive them or not. I won't tell you what to believe, I'm telling you to look deeply into the place you are in and drink deeply from the well of experience.
Just wondering John , do you ever interact with women on your show because it seems to be very male-dominated and it would be great to get a woman’s perspective on some of the topics that you discuss
Ah , thank you John. I just finished watching your video with Jordan Hall , it was a good, well done. Great to see all three of you. God bless your hearts ❤ this is such a beautiful conversation.
Yes!!! Please continue these conversations. I deeply appreciate each of you and the sweet conversation between you. Just relistened to pt.1 this week. Very excited.
I had the word 'pain' coming up. There is pain in the four notions. Obviously body being the one carrying it more forcefully but it is nonetheless present in the four.
Thanks Ken yes You are an interresting and as I feel grounding part in this trio
Imagine dialogos between D.C.Schindler and Bishop Maximus 🤯
Ken Should come with a whiteboard next time. or release an illustration of all the things he thinks of.
I like how he always brings a physical/imaginary aspect to the talk.
Allows one to rotate ideas.
PS it is quite interesting how "Cartesean"/Geometric some of the analogies are. The general language of the discourse
Oh wow, what a nice surprise.
it is blowing my mind how it seems I am contemplating and discussing with others topics that seem to be covered in every new video that comes out. Its like I am doing homework and the teacher is giving review lessons. I am not intending to do this but it is occurring. Love this channel
I’m currently reading Nishitani and I’d love to see if you guys can find some commonality between his description of Sunyata as “absolute openness” and the stance of learned ignorance that allows the world to open up to Socrates.
This might not be the right place to say this, but I sincerely hope Dr. Vervaeke considers at some point speaking to members of non-Christian faith traditions. I would particularly like to hear him talk to Western Yogis, practitioners of Advaita Vedanta, Buddhists (perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi or Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen Rinpoche?) and, of course, Moslems. I get this eerie feeling that there is a Christian coalition building that is starting to believe that Dr. Vervaeke's consistent conversation with them is building some kind of setting where Cognitive Science is "proving" the "truth" of Christianity and the "falsity" of other traditions. I'm well aware that I need to sit with and consider my own discomfort and its significance. If any of you know of good channels or blogs with 4E cog sci people or people who think in terms of the concepts in AFTMC and After Socrates doing the sort of thing I describe, I'd like to know about them. I will try in my own way, but my podcast/channel is pretty weak, let's be honest.
Yesss David and Ken are always a delight!
Hi John, my mind made several connections to psychological types by Jung, specifically thinking, feeling, intuiting, and sensing as ordered in the video title. If this mapping is correct, Jung is further explaining the introverted and extraverted attitudes of each function, which may be correlated to the inspirational and aspirational versions of the four leaps you mentioned.
For example, both you and David experience reason as inspirational and love as aspirational. Jung would say that adopting an introverted thinking attitude would make feeling shift towards extraversion.
I will also add, "account of" would be your dominant (sometimes called hero) function (reason-thinking), "account for" would be your auxiliary (sometimes called good parent) function (faith-intuiting), "account to" would be your inferior (sometimes called anima) function (love-feeling). And both David and you share the same topology.
I am aware that you criticize Jung for taking a Kantian point of view, and you view these leaps as a co-creation of self and reality. However, his formulation could still be helpful.
THIS made me happy. On point! 🙌🏽🌟✊🏽 Sorry, I am behind on things because ai have priorities. Not cross posting on my instagram but if you knowC you know♾️
I'd love next time to hear the distinction between "goodness" and "The Good"/"The One" discussed a bit.
Why does Plato use that word specifically?
Thanks gentlemen 🙏
26:55 - Consolidating different arrangement of notions
I struggle with that as well,
My suggestion:
1. Try and reduce the "notions" to a small group.
2. Collect all the relevant arrangements of those notions.
3. Make new notions for each arrangement, new notions must be orthogonal to the previous notions.
4. Repeat the process on the new notions.
5. If Loop doesn't end, that is, you always come up with new notions, and their number does not
decrease, Consider those your "predicate notions", and construct axioms :)
Personally I think the notion of "All possible Intentions" might be of/the first one/s.
Followed by the notion of "Sub Group Variants as a product of Analysis".
Followed by the notion of "Observation space of orthogonal intentions of a system" .
Suggestion. I wonder what would happen if you guys experimented with a slightly different format where it is allowed to be silent for a while, process what somebody said and gather thoughts before speaking, like with japanese tea ceremony. A little bit like with your After Socrates demonstration. It might turn out that the conversation is less chaotic and more from the heart.
Now, I know pauses might be frowned upon in such a medium like YT... but what if it works? Just a thought. ^^
In Pageaus terms maybe, it would allow to feel into the angel or spirit overlighting the conversation more smoothly.
19:26 You are talking about Gödel’s incompleteness theorem. These always map so well onto the foundations of mathematics, which is not that surprising it grew out of theology, it’s the one place square in the center of sciences where the medieval mindset has somewhat been preserved.
"We know that God exists because mathematics is consistent and we know that the devil exists because we cannot prove the consistency."
ruclips.net/video/FHsvGZzuYcY/видео.html
For example the existence of an infinite set is equivalent to the consistency of arithmetics, just like the ground of being which itself is not one of the beings, that makes being possible.
I would wager that Jonathan Pageaue was explicitly inspired by formal logic and set theory maybe via his brother or maybe he rediscovered it intuitively? For example: talking about the parts constituting an object as a leap of faith = quantifying over natural numbers, is weaker than quantifying over sets of natural numbers (second order number theory) etc.
37:07 sometimes it’s appropriate to jump off the 300 foot cliff. In the context of a desperate experiment it’s perhaps appropriate. Normalizing every desperate experiment though is disaster. However let’s assume desperate experiments became normalized, a new desperate experiment might rise. Crawling to the edge of the cliff peaking over the side and dramatically backing off, being left to tremble in terror at the sight of any body of water eventually becoming dehydrated…
Interesting to see how the concept of transcendence become more rounded here. Up, down and into but also" to" and "for" what sur-"rounds" us, as in circumscribing but also in a way circum- stancing/ standing us?!
the 'leap' discussed at 38:43, being both a leap and being carried, is found quite succinctly in the mythologem of the invisible bridge, where one takes a step out from a precipice and lo, there is ground carrying you across.
Yes, the more we leap into the virtues, the more opposition we will face from others. I was foolish enough to believe that if I wanted to live a life of wisdom that it would make my life fuller and easier, to be that guy who solves all problems. However, a true life of wisdom does not make us rulers over men, but servants of The Good, True, and Beautiful. Yet from our upbringing and history, our hearts yearn to be on top of the social hierarchy, and a half hearted attempt of chasing after the virtues produces no fruit. That is why wisdom, faith, and love demand a "leap".
Please speak to how Trauma is involved here🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼❤️❤️❤️
I am genuinely curious how many pages a whole podcast equates to if im reading along with cc on 🤔 I genuinely feel i learn something new every time i listen/watch/read with each new episode.
Appreciate your time JV ❤🍄
around 30
I keep thinking about how this dynamic could be captured in for example a social media platform, search algorithm or decentralized organisations in order to fit the way we orient to reality instead of corpos orienting us to consume goods... I've been giving this a whole lot of attention but it's hard for me to grasp and put into code. If someone else reading this have been thinking along the same lines I'd be very interested to hear your take on it!
18:20 in the same way we shape our hand in the shape of a glass as we reach for the glass along with the appropriate posture of our back and speed we thrust our arm to the way the arm is bent, I wonder if there’s something here analogous as it relates to each form of leap. I’m perhaps having difficulty expressing what I’m thinking but maybe someone could help me and expand on it.
Rarely do I critique one of your vids but the ads were way too much and made it hard to get caught up in the conversation. 2 long ads every 3 minutes is too much. Otherwise this is another gift as always.
I wonder how this sense of through-line can be tied into the Ulrichian treatment of esse which introduces a crisis, i.e., what will be our response to this mysterious gift of the through-line, to put it rather clumsily. To say it another way, what does it ask of us given its donative nature?
I'd love to get into the misology more. Falling short of participating in the virtues all the time, it might actually be easier to grasp their goodness vis-a-vis where it fails. Ironically that which is easier is through the most pain. And the hardest thing to grasp is directly into the right relation.
A Yay!!! so encouraging you will forever scoff at the confused Nays!!!
Amazing! You are finding ways and means and words to explore/grasp the particularities of parts of the inner world I never thought was possible. These are like hidden paths (I also sense they are ancient paths! and I am walking in dense fog!) connecting to one another in many meaningful ways, you also teach me what tell-tale signs to look out for. Philosophy always attracted and hugely frustrated me. Your conversations are leading me somewhere.....!
This conversation is on the edge of my understanding and knowledge in philosophy as a layman, but I managed to gain a lot of insight and appreciation for what is. I love how you are mapping the areas of reality that are loosely called "spiritual" and making it digestible for the current left brain hemisphere dominant zeitgeist. While "democracy" and personal freedom seem to be so dominant in our age, I couldn't help but think when you mentioned the inner tyrant over the self, that the meaning crisis often inflicts this inner invisible tyranny, as people cannot cope with the lack of direction and subsequently lack of relevance.
You really should have on Prof Eric Perl (re: neoNeoplatonism)
Also how can painters get involved? I'm a painter/ artist.
I got a lot out of this conversation, thank you to all three of you for offering your hearts and minds to us listeners. At several points I was left with a desire for the question of the "jumping off point" to be addressed in relation to the different leaps. My sense is that the leap which an individual is called to take is a consequence of whatever habitual patterns in which they are entangled. For example, when entangled in a pattern of self-doubt or spiritual doubt, the need to take a leap of faith may arise. Or when entangled in a pattern of isolation, the need to take a leap of love may arise. It seems that the act of leaping and the consequential liberation necessarily transcend the conditions from which the individual leapt. In fact the act of leaping and consequential liberation transcend even the type of leap that was taken. Yet it is the subjective condition of the individual who is caught in habitual patterns which necessitate the differentiation of "types of leaps."
I am big fan of Dr.Vervaeke, his view is equally treating life and learnings as harmony with respect to people's well being that is warmth in it. Cognitive science can do it is amazing intellectual care, which I would like to learn from him. Thanksgiving to his presence in RUclips video!
Why did the beauty fall in love with the reason? Because it was so rational!
The greatest gift and complete bind is self-sacrifice.
Could there not be a 5th leap? The leap of life- the leap into life which I think is well paired with each of the other leaps and for Me, it adds reality and could give way to understanding them all. And I felt like 4 wasn't quite there yet and was missing a point , and adding Life as a 5th , almost like a core aspect. I have drawn a diagram and it makes more sense to me . Plus none of these would be possible, I don't think, without life. 🤔 Life including the mind body soul and spirit and then what is beyond spirit like consciousness. That to me is fulfillment of the whole and the whole as a sum of its parts each having become whole. You need life to make these moves. Walking by faith , walking in love, walking with body, walking using reason and walking as life works.
And I think one can even use climbing alternatively to walking I suppose
@@dalibofurnell Heideggerian ereignis, i just learned of this one, revealing into essence ... peace/gl
I like this idea of the leap into life, but to me it seems like more of a meta-leap than one of the other four. If I can assume that if one needs to "leap into life" then there is some aspect of death or "anti-life" that they are overcoming. I think that the negatives of the four leaps are all aspects of anti-life.
I love listening to all the deep abstract philosophical discussion, but it leaves me with a desire for change and/or transformation. This generally leads to the very practical question What do I do now?
I think I'm starting to realize that may be a question wrongly asked, that phrasing the question in that way fails to really take in all that is being said, perhaps the better question to ask myself is How am I living? or How can I improve how I'm living? Improve in the sense of better seeking the True, the Good, and the Beautiful.
I believe your typical response to What do I do now? is the ecology of practice response, which I never felt directly answered the question, but I'm starting to think that's because it was the wrong question. When I ask How can I improve how I'm living? the ecology of practice response makes a lot more sense.
Did any of that make sense? Do you think it's possible to give concrete examples of how these leaps unfold in your everyday life? Or is this more of a tool of teaching the language/concepts? Is it possible to pull the abstraction down to something concrete without giving something up? Is this more just something you need to experience yourself to know it?
Really appreciate all your work, and would love if you and Ian McGilchrist would talk together again. I have been listening to a lot Dr. McGilchrist lately and he has a lot of converging points and shared language.
I've felt the same tension within myself after listening to these types of conversations for years. I've not figured the answer to the 'what do I do now?' question. But my viewpoint lately has been that we should do 3 things after listening to these sorts of conversations: 1: Do everything we can to live out the truths discussed in the video on a daily basis. 2: Share what we've learnt from these conversations with others. If you find the conversations interesting then you'll probably find within yourself the impulse to share them with others anyway. 3: Read deeper on the content discussed, research more in related areas, and ponder the topics discussed more deeply.
That's what I try to do, anyway. Hope this helps😁😁
Hello John. Im begining to consider myself post christian as ive worked on integrating that past and the language ive been imbued with through my upbringing within its narrative, but on this path i have only become more certain that christianity is not something i can participate in. Over the past few years i have seriously engaged with the taoist texts, the tao te ching and the Zhuangzi, and i have found myself enamored by the beauty of the narrative while also finding peace in what i perceive as the sort of agnosticism that taoism presents in relation to narratives altogether. I have seen video after video within the neoplatonic revolution in this little corner of the internet, but i want to know more about its zen counterpart. The through line i find to be spoken about often, however, not being from that culture, i do not know how to filter the woo from the true so to speak and any recommendations as far as literature or important figures would be greatly appreciated.
A tremendously significant development of ideas here, which is absolutely essential to understanding the unity of being and Transcendence as integral to each other and serving the subtleties of exploring unitive ontology of participation. Great work rendered delightful by Ken's grin and generally highly sensitive treatment by all . Thanks!!!
John, thank you for everything you do ♥️
Discovering you has changed my life profoundly
Around the 31ish minute mark, i think Love maps onto Beauty, Faith onto The Good, and Reason onto Truth, but in any model I've done previously I've always put love in the center of the triad of truth goodness beauty. I also appreciate John's comment on how these can be mixed and shuffled.
Anyone else have to rewind 10 seconds each time because every sentence is mind blowing and profound?
Would love to hear more about the primacy of beauty, because I was painting the whole time I was listening to this!
To me, finding myself in right relation to nature, through photography originally, has been the defining aim of my life.
These days, I don't take as many pictures, but I still find myself in the exploration of beauty through music and art (which is still inspired by nature and the time I spend in it).
Thank you gentlemen!
Beautiful! Been waiting for this for a long time and boy was it worth the wait. Too much to review from one video but absolutely loved the discussion around each Leap. Thanks Ken, David & John🙏
Thanks David, Ken and John!
Rosemary Desjardins, her text "Plato and the Good" (Brilll, 2004), explores Plato's understanding of dialectics as explored in his dialogue "Philebus". She shows how each four levels of consciousness, as displayed by Plato's Divided Line in the Republic, is a kind of leap of rational intuition, leading to a more whole understanding of the world. Vervaede's Relevance Realization has a very good place in that. She shows how each level of understanding on the Divided Line presents us something more Real, Causal, and as a Criterion for lower levels of realty consciousness, precisely because what the soul finds relevant in lower levels of consciousness explains much that is real, but, she says later in her book, it always needs revision based on new relevant insights at each level.
D C Schnidler cited her work in his "Plato's Critique" so he's familiar it. I would like to see what he thinks about applying your Relevance Realization to her understanding of the mechanics of Plato's dialectics.
Along with Schindler's "Plato's Critique", her book is one of my lasting fundamental texts for understanding Plato. Also, Later in her text she tried to apply the way in which dialectics impacts the true philosopher, in their "divine mania", the four mentioned by Plato in his "Phaedrus" the mania of Love, Prophecy, Poetry, and Healing. It's such a great work, I could try to find a copy and send it your way.
Ken´s a bit 💫struck❣
John, you hit on a problem around 26:20 that I've struggled with endlessly. "Reshuffling the mappings" seems more and more possible the more universal/transcendental a concept is.
E.g: I've pondered a mapping between the 3 Orders of worldview and the 3 transcendentals that goes:
Narrative - Beauty
Normative - Goodness
Nomological - Truth
But I could see how various switches could justifiably be made.
I've come across the same problem with the 4 Ps. So part of my current project is to collect various plausible mappings and initiate a discussion around their pros and cons.
Great discussion so far!
Socrates didn't actually say "I know that I know nothing". Or anything even similar.
It's a common misquote.
The closest we get is when he was asked why he seemed to be wiser than someone he was talking to.
He said:
"I seem, then, in just this little thing to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know I do not think I know either."
That's it.
- wiki.
💓Evolutionary Leap💓
Computationally irreducible syntactic framing.
21:27 that's why sometimes I think that, the Logos surly have a code structure, it can not be other way. We are always de-coding ourselves.
Bloody fantastic, you remind me of how great philosophy can be
Also, since you are looking for suggestions, I heard Ian Mcgilchrist speak about how metaphor is not a sort of fancy elaboration of language but must rather be understood as the fondation of language. I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
John's got a picture of an Arizona Green Tea bottle with the word "Wisdom" on it hanging on his wall.
As I listened to the discussion on Kant, Graham Harman's object-oriented ontology hearkened to me. Regarding philosophy as a (general) whole's move to Hegel's immanent dialectic after Kant's performative contradiction, his take (as of 5 years ago in the talk this is quote from) is that Kant actually didn't go far enough:
"I think that should not have been done, I think that was one of the great missed opportunities in the history of philosophy, that moment right after. What should have happened is instead of saying we need to get rid of Kant's stupid thing in itself, we needed to say Kant's thing in itself is great, the problem is he limits it to humans. Oh we poor humans are so tragic and finite that we can't get at things the way they really are, we're trapped in our categories and it's based on time. No all objects are trapped! When fire burns, cotton fire does not make contact with all the aspects of the cotton, it makes contact with a caricature of the cotton, a translation of the cotton....everything is relational but not directly....nothing that touches anything makes direct contact with anything else."
This seems to resonate with the talk of aspects. The tension between making full contact and never being able to truly make contact. Is this perhaps another paradox/pairing that is missing in the synthesis? We are contacted, but can never contact fully in return. What about those objects we are trying to find a throughline for? Are they "seeking" contact as well? It seems to me that playing with contact/non-contact may help define the tension between appearance/reality, part/whole, relative/absolute.
And thanks so much for affording second- hand participation in the fire!
The preparation of this great Stoic, Catholic mystic was arduous. And necessarily so, the message she was fashioned to give to the world is for the hearty and strong.
We inhabit a universe that is constrained by physical laws as well as unseen moral laws. Individuals and cultures who consistently align themselves with these laws prosper, and those who disregard them suffer unnecessarily. William James stated that religion consists in the belief that there is an unseen order to the universe, and that our supreme wellbeing comes from aligning ourselves to it.
Thank you John❤️
There is an organizing principle at work in the cosmos and at each level of emergence, a new transcendent property begins expressing itself and testing state space as if it were looking for value or meaning. We are part of this process and we have no idea where it came from or where it will end. There are many who will give an explanation depending on what they are connected to but who is correct? How can we answer a question like that? Experience is a nebulous thing, we can only wonder. There are miracles everywhere you look, you just have to allow yourself to return to the mindful condition of childhood to see them. They are there whether you perceive them or not. I won't tell you what to believe, I'm telling you to look deeply into the place you are in and drink deeply from the well of experience.
Just wondering John , do you ever interact with women on your show because it seems to be very male-dominated and it would be great to get a woman’s perspective on some of the topics that you discuss
Ah , thank you John. I just finished watching your video with Jordan Hall , it was a good, well done. Great to see all three of you. God bless your hearts ❤ this is such a beautiful conversation.
Holy moly you got DC Schindler!!! He is the man.
Awesome to see you all together!
Yes!!!
Please continue these conversations. I deeply appreciate each of you and the sweet conversation between you. Just relistened to pt.1 this week. Very excited.
23:06 that reminds me the Pseudo Dionisio aeropagita, the luminous fog.
I always want to ask "what is beauty?"
Thanks John.
I had the word 'pain' coming up. There is pain in the four notions. Obviously body being the one carrying it more forcefully but it is nonetheless present in the four.
This makes me think of "suffering faith" in a way that seems resonant with some of Kierkegaard's work
@@KevinFlowersJr Melancholy then could come to mind.
@@bedardpelchat but then what would the 'pain' of reason & love be? 🤔
@@KevinFlowersJr Not too sure: despair and resilience? 🤔
Holy moly
N37⭕️
🌚☄️❤️💫
7:10
Does anyone have the link to part 1?
It's in the description at 11:40 pm Toronto time anyway. I looked before I started and had already seen one. Peace
He pushed the sword down instead of trying to pull it out. 🗡️ in 🪨