Do you follow the counterintuitive logic mentioned at 21:14 about the opponent's flop bet sizing choice dictating if he should check or bet large on turn?
I understand how bigbet/call is a far more pressurized situation on the flop than is smallbet/call, and thus warrants more aggressive oop turn betting - but at least a bit of consideration needs to be given to the fact that the turn paired the middle card, no?
It's the natural progression. Gamer plays magic, tries to get into the competitive scene, realizes how insanely difficult it is to have the skill edges, realizes that the money to skill to time commitment ratio isn't worth while, and becomes a poker player. Magic the Gathering is the child of chess and hold em. Having skill edges in mtg already provides skill edges in similar strategy card games.
2 month old comment but yeah, same for me, except I actually was a travelling grinder and semi-pro magic player. With how much they have gutted pro play, you need to be a content creator to make any sort of money playing magic or top 30 in the world basically. I have a bigger edge over the field in magic than I do in poker, but I've made more in MTTs in the past couple of months playing poker than I did in seven years of winning magic tournaments, counting travel costs. Not to mention you don't need to buy a deck that's going to lose value to play poker!
I was a big MTG player in the 94-96 years. Ended up getting a divorce in 2001 and sold the majority of my cards to make ends meet for what I thought was a huge profit...until you look at how much they are worth now. I still have a few lesser valued cards but it is depressing to think how many events I could play at WSOP if I still had my original collection.
I played / judged to 2003 and then sold out when in 2004/2005 .... started buying back in 2011 and have built a reasonable holding with both the collectables boom and making some good moves at the right time.
The dry side pot analogy is really apt and well explained. It's hard for new players to understand the difference in pot odds between calling and raising.
Is his value that's losing really just AT and JJ? What about JTs? QTs? KTs? He 3-bet but didn't have to call a 4-bet pre and he never faced a bet or raise post so I think he is wider than we are giving credit for here.
I actually like Villains check on turn and having a protected checking range, out if position, this deep Like sure, knowing the exact holdings, betting all 3 streets would get heros stack, but with him blocking top set, there are not many hands that would be able to call 3 streets. At the same time, this assumes people will bluff when checked too on the turn, which isn't always the case.
I had some thoughts about this hand that I wanted to discuss in general. First if the guy with 1010 should have gone for 3 streets of value - In my opinion he should not have and the way he played was better because it would let the hero even call with hands like 88,77,66 etc. My logic behind that is that since he is blocking all the top pairs with the top set he knows that hero probably does not have much jj+ in his range and there are more suited connectors, suited aces, random pocket pairs. Calling the flop cbet by hero narrows the heros range to pocket pairs that decided to call the flop thinking that a 10 or 9 is not in Villains 3bet range and he is probably cbet with ak,aq,aj, kq type of hands often. Checking on the turn made sense because in Villains heads what could hero have, he could have jq for open ended, a9 for turned trips, number of pocket pairs in the range of 55 to 88. and a lot of them would either bet themselves like 9 for trips for value or pocket pair would just fold off thinking opponent does have a overpair or something and jq is the only hand that would probably call a bet that wouldnt bet. The big almost pot sized bet on the river was also looking relatively bluffy to me like definitely could have been ak,aq that is trying to rep aa or kk and hero possibly could have made the call with much worse hands like 66,77,88. Looking at the heros hand I agree that villain could have gotten 3 streets of value but considering the general ranges the way villain played it was probably better. Regarding the hero betting the turn - I don't think he should be betting because at the point as the hero, it feels like the opponent either has a hand like ak,aq,aj kq,kj, some suited aces also since hero said he was running hot and playing a number of hands. There are very few hands that hero beats with which villain can call a bet so I don't think hero should bet for that reason, most ace highs would just fold. And sometimes opponent could be trapping with aa or kk and that would be bad. The narrow range of hands which hero beats with which opponent could call are jj, a10 for top top. Also as hero said a lot of players in general when there ak or aq or aj are just ace high then they try to bluff on the river and try to represent hands like aa kk qq etc and checking behind lets villain bet with all of those hands. I think the general idea of checking on turn and calling river as long as river was not an ace made logical sense to me. If the river was a king then it is somewhat of a weird spot and I would say then its a call 50% of the time Anyway let me know what you think
I would have checked the turn. A bet leaves you vulnerable to a check raise with super strong hands and builds the pot making you potentially pot committed if he shoves the river. There are few hands you're up against that will improve on a river on this disconnected a board.
Not sure most people are bluffing AK on this run out it wins at sd a lot. IP has all the suited broadway, AQ, AJ w bdfd and maybe even off suit combos of AQ and KQ,
@@zpgJiggleBilly ok and I assume there’s some sort of cap on the total number of power levels you could have in your hand? So that you can’t just print out all highest level cards
Bart mostly asks callers about diff hands he'd take action with for balance such as bluffs, but I'd like him to ask about willingness to play for stacks, such as if he 4bs QQ to say 500-550-600 there, does he fold or call a shove. I think that offers more clarity as to motives to just call. As played river snap call. Cooler.
I'm the caller, the reason I didn't 4! pre is cause vs this villain it folds out all his bluffs that'll provide me value on later streets. As played, if I 4! to $550 (the number I was thinking) I 100% would call off to a shove cause it's only 200BB in the straddled pot and he is capable of shoving with both AK and A5s there as well as AA/KK. He's actually potentially got some JJ and TT as well as AKos for example is in my range to 4! back.
@@KIP_NZ Hey Tx for owning the hand here. One thing I find interesting from a conceptual standpoint, is the theoretical sizing amounts to keep hands in vs giving marginal hands/draws a much steeper price to catch up. It's almost as if they're saying the new paradigm of Big Bet Poker is profiting from barreling worst hands vs playing for stacks. IDK. I'm a Senior, Old School trained guy who's played in too many great games to bet so small when you smash the flop etc. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, but the bottom line to me is when push comes to shove, we usually need big hands to win big pots. This fit the bill. I'd run with it instead of playing defense.
@@TheMightyDoon I don't want to give away too much of CLP's behind the curtain material but before I subbed to the site I 100% thought like you do, you need to pile money in while ahead to build a big pot or play for stacks but I've for sure changed my mentality and game to playing a multi-street game and to extract value from not only their made hands, their draws but also from the bluff parts of their range. That last component was the bit of V's range I was targeting by not 4 betting pre.
I think or know that people when telling a story or setting a narrative use the term « obviously « w/o really thinking about it.. none of this stuff about magic is obvious to me or 95% of viewers.. go on
I’m a CLP subscriber. I love it and have learned so much…. ie combinatorics, Which after 30 years of playing brick and mortar Poker, I was woefully ignorant of! What Encourages me most is how often, on these hand review videos, you Bart, are wrong! Maybe I’m not such a Poker Dufus after all?! Thanks for what you do…😅 Someday soon I’ll summon the guts to call in a hand for you. Old man coffee
@@giacalonebuilding4443 actually looking at this again in GTOwiz, QQ & JJ are only 4b here like 20% of the time, and TT like 5% of the time, which is much less than in 100bb config. I guess playing deeper, you are much less happy if someone 5b you, since you likely have to fold these holdings. However, from a live standpoint, 5b are so rare, its probably fine to 4b at a higher frequency and just snap fold to 5b that will not be light enough.
Do you follow the counterintuitive logic mentioned at 21:14 about the opponent's flop bet sizing choice dictating if he should check or bet large on turn?
I understand how bigbet/call is a far more pressurized situation on the flop than is smallbet/call, and thus warrants more aggressive oop turn betting - but at least a bit of consideration needs to be given to the fact that the turn paired the middle card, no?
Sometimes I wish I could just have Bart sitting next to me In every decision I make lol
Bart would say, go ahead and act, then we'll talk about betting more next time.
@@MichaelJamesActually 😂😂😂😂
Not sure my wife would be comfortable with that
I sometimes wish Bart would read to me as I'm falling asleep.
did not 4!bet to keep his bluffs in?? Would he folded TT to a 4!bet?
These videos are like crack. I can watch like 40 in a row and burn a full evening if I'm not careful. Thanks for these gems Bart!
I think these videos are more like sleeping pills. I can put 3 or 4 in a playlist at night and fall asleep before the list ends.
It's the natural progression. Gamer plays magic, tries to get into the competitive scene, realizes how insanely difficult it is to have the skill edges, realizes that the money to skill to time commitment ratio isn't worth while, and becomes a poker player. Magic the Gathering is the child of chess and hold em. Having skill edges in mtg already provides skill edges in similar strategy card games.
I was never a good magic player.... that's why I became a judge obviously....
2 month old comment but yeah, same for me, except I actually was a travelling grinder and semi-pro magic player. With how much they have gutted pro play, you need to be a content creator to make any sort of money playing magic or top 30 in the world basically. I have a bigger edge over the field in magic than I do in poker, but I've made more in MTTs in the past couple of months playing poker than I did in seven years of winning magic tournaments, counting travel costs. Not to mention you don't need to buy a deck that's going to lose value to play poker!
The ol boat up check and check the turn trick. Works every time!
Works to make you way less money than just triple barreling would have?
@@Jermo484 He's being sarcastic
I was a big MTG player in the 94-96 years. Ended up getting a divorce in 2001 and sold the majority of my cards to make ends meet for what I thought was a huge profit...until you look at how much they are worth now. I still have a few lesser valued cards but it is depressing to think how many events I could play at WSOP if I still had my original collection.
I played / judged to 2003 and then sold out when in 2004/2005 .... started buying back in 2011 and have built a reasonable holding with both the collectables boom and making some good moves at the right time.
I love the first part is about mtg🎉 😂 always happy to see others start chit chatting about their hobbies
As a Magic: the Gathering RUclipsr and poker player, this might be my favorite video of yours ever!
The dry side pot analogy is really apt and well explained. It's hard for new players to understand the difference in pot odds between calling and raising.
60% of the time, the 4bet works every time.
Is his value that's losing really just AT and JJ? What about JTs? QTs? KTs? He 3-bet but didn't have to call a 4-bet pre and he never faced a bet or raise post so I think he is wider than we are giving credit for here.
I actually like Villains check on turn and having a protected checking range, out if position, this deep Like sure, knowing the exact holdings, betting all 3 streets would get heros stack, but with him blocking top set, there are not many hands that would be able to call 3 streets.
At the same time, this assumes people will bluff when checked too on the turn, which isn't always the case.
I got into poker because people in the MTG scene started playing. Huge overlap in playerbase. They also use poker terms in MTG a lot now
I had some thoughts about this hand that I wanted to discuss in general.
First if the guy with 1010 should have gone for 3 streets of value - In my opinion he should not have and the way he played was better because it would let the hero even call with hands like 88,77,66 etc. My logic behind that is that since he is blocking all the top pairs with the top set he knows that hero probably does not have much jj+ in his range and there are more suited connectors, suited aces, random pocket pairs. Calling the flop cbet by hero narrows the heros range to pocket pairs that decided to call the flop thinking that a 10 or 9 is not in Villains 3bet range and he is probably cbet with ak,aq,aj, kq type of hands often. Checking on the turn made sense because in Villains heads what could hero have, he could have jq for open ended, a9 for turned trips, number of pocket pairs in the range of 55 to 88. and a lot of them would either bet themselves like 9 for trips for value or pocket pair would just fold off thinking opponent does have a overpair or something and jq is the only hand that would probably call a bet that wouldnt bet. The big almost pot sized bet on the river was also looking relatively bluffy to me like definitely could have been ak,aq that is trying to rep aa or kk and hero possibly could have made the call with much worse hands like 66,77,88. Looking at the heros hand I agree that villain could have gotten 3 streets of value but considering the general ranges the way villain played it was probably better.
Regarding the hero betting the turn - I don't think he should be betting because at the point as the hero, it feels like the opponent either has a hand like ak,aq,aj kq,kj, some suited aces also since hero said he was running hot and playing a number of hands. There are very few hands that hero beats with which villain can call a bet so I don't think hero should bet for that reason, most ace highs would just fold. And sometimes opponent could be trapping with aa or kk and that would be bad. The narrow range of hands which hero beats with which opponent could call are jj, a10 for top top. Also as hero said a lot of players in general when there ak or aq or aj are just ace high then they try to bluff on the river and try to represent hands like aa kk qq etc and checking behind lets villain bet with all of those hands. I think the general idea of checking on turn and calling river as long as river was not an ace made logical sense to me. If the river was a king then it is somewhat of a weird spot and I would say then its a call 50% of the time
Anyway let me know what you think
What happens if hero bets turn $250 and villain calls. Then villain leads river all in. Lol
I call. Not much else I can do.
Bart needs to have just a chill fucking podcast. When he talks poker, he kind of looks like a vampire.
I would have checked the turn. A bet leaves you vulnerable to a check raise with super strong hands and builds the pot making you potentially pot committed if he shoves the river. There are few hands you're up against that will improve on a river on this disconnected a board.
Not sure most people are bluffing AK on this run out it wins at sd a lot. IP has all the suited broadway, AQ, AJ w bdfd and maybe even off suit combos of AQ and KQ,
Star Wars Unlimited the new next Magic killer
I also played magic in the early 90s and enjoyed that convo
thank you Bart
So to flip it .. if you had the pocket 10’s hand would you risk putting in a smaller river bet sizing to induce a raise? ????
Sounding like some high school virgins in the beginning of the video
Ten minutes to get to the actual hand is a bit long
I never understood the appeal of magic, why would I play a card game that’s pay to win??
If you don't want to pay, just print them off and use those to play. Paying is for the collectors aspect. Proxy cards are accpetable in play.
@@zpgJiggleBilly ok and I assume there’s some sort of cap on the total number of power levels you could have in your hand? So that you can’t just print out all highest level cards
Why would you play poker when it’s pay to win?
you are play to win against others who are paying to win - so it evens out.
If you don't wanna play constructed then play limited.
@@zpgJiggleBilly while playing with friends and some events. Most events will not allow proxies.
Villains hand gets counterfeited, right?
Not really. He still has tens full. Caller rivers nines full.
Bart mostly asks callers about diff hands he'd take action with for balance such as bluffs, but I'd like him to ask about willingness to play for stacks, such as if he 4bs QQ to say 500-550-600 there, does he fold or call a shove. I think that offers more clarity as to motives to just call. As played river snap call. Cooler.
I'm the caller, the reason I didn't 4! pre is cause vs this villain it folds out all his bluffs that'll provide me value on later streets.
As played, if I 4! to $550 (the number I was thinking) I 100% would call off to a shove cause it's only 200BB in the straddled pot and he is capable of shoving with both AK and A5s there as well as AA/KK. He's actually potentially got some JJ and TT as well as AKos for example is in my range to 4! back.
@@KIP_NZ Hey Tx for owning the hand here. One thing I find interesting from a conceptual standpoint, is the theoretical sizing amounts to keep hands in vs giving marginal hands/draws a much steeper price to catch up. It's almost as if they're saying the new paradigm of Big Bet Poker is profiting from barreling worst hands vs playing for stacks. IDK. I'm a Senior, Old School trained guy who's played in too many great games to bet so small when you smash the flop etc. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, but the bottom line to me is when push comes to shove, we usually need big hands to win big pots. This fit the bill. I'd run with it instead of playing defense.
@@TheMightyDoon I don't want to give away too much of CLP's behind the curtain material but before I subbed to the site I 100% thought like you do, you need to pile money in while ahead to build a big pot or play for stacks but I've for sure changed my mentality and game to playing a multi-street game and to extract value from not only their made hands, their draws but also from the bluff parts of their range. That last component was the bit of V's range I was targeting by not 4 betting pre.
I think or know that people when telling a story or setting a narrative use the term « obviously « w/o really thinking about it.. none of this stuff about magic is obvious to me or 95% of viewers.. go on
The pot update on the river is wrong. Good hand analysis though with tricky player
Classic example of nitty Crown regs afraid to 4bet pf 200bbs deep btn vs sb
I'm still confuse,who actually won the hand? And why?
Villain won TTT99 v 999QQ
passed up the 75 dollar black lotus back in the day. oops.
So this kid is throwing the baby out with the bath water bc the baby isn’t perfect?
I’m a CLP subscriber. I love it and have learned so much…. ie combinatorics,
Which after 30 years of playing brick and mortar Poker, I was woefully ignorant of! What Encourages me most is how often, on these hand review videos, you Bart, are wrong! Maybe I’m not such a Poker Dufus after all?!
Thanks for what you do…😅
Someday soon I’ll summon the guts to call in a hand for you.
Old man coffee
What are you smoking ?
bart, thanks for all you teach us
Awesome content as always!
🤓 Alert!
4bet pre callers logic for calling is bad. Only 2 better hands exist and the number of worse hands that will call is greater than 2
Dude you didn’t even talk about poker until like 5 mins into the video. WTF
It’s a 20 min video for one hand. Do the math🤷🏼
And ...?
Poker. That's gambling, right?
deserved for being a nit flatting QQ to a 3bet bu vs sb with a bunch of dead money in the pot already.
Yeah hands like JJ-KK are mandatory 4b in this config bc they need protection more than trapping
JJ and QQ do a good bit of calling IP. 10/10 4 bets more than JJ and qq
@@giacalonebuilding4443 actually looking at this again in GTOwiz, QQ & JJ are only 4b here like 20% of the time, and TT like 5% of the time, which is much less than in 100bb config. I guess playing deeper, you are much less happy if someone 5b you, since you likely have to fold these holdings.
However, from a live standpoint, 5b are so rare, its probably fine to 4b at a higher frequency and just snap fold to 5b that will not be light enough.
standard play to mix call and 4bet especially deep
What is "deserved"? Losing this hand? I guess that means you think SB folds TT to the 4 bet?