What do YOU think should be the ruling here? 🧑🏫 A. Play is paused whilst they try to locate his lost timebanks B. It’s his own fault and play continues C. He is given new timebanks D. Other ruling..?
1. You can't pause the player from thinking about the hand, so pausing is a hard no! 2. To talk about and get him new time chips you still need to pause the play 3. Sorry bro, it's your own fault...dead hand city
Play should remain active while someone goes to find his timebanks. If timebanks aren't found, play is dead (fold). If the timebanks are found, take away the number of time banks used before an action is made, just as would have occurred if his timebanks were on the table. If not enough timebanks are remaining for the time before he made an action, play is also dead (fold) and all timebanks are taken.
B. If Shorr went all-in with a bluff and then Lonis, after being given more time by the TD called and won the hand then there would be all hell to pay! Play should immediately continue. Shorr won that easily but it could easily cause a 's' fight!
@@dylanmccaskill643 - nobody believes that 26 companies would put Hellmuth as as a paid "advisor" on the payroll. My guess is that they paid him a consulting fee whenever they need a job. Especially when there are far more popular pokers with an active social media presence and business they've created (e.g. Doug Polk). We're in the era of influencers, and Hellmuth isn't one. Hellmuth doesn't bring the following to your business like a Doug Polk would.
At the end of the day what's the harm in looking for his timebank chips? If he doesn't have them his hand is dead, if he does then he should have to spend enough for his hand not to be dead I know it's fun and all to say a quippy line and end with "period" but that compromise has basically no draw backs
@mnm1273 because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules. I don't think it's a big deal either way, but the TD should have killed the hand then looked for his time chips. You disagree. Ok.
@@dominicbiondi4097 "because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules" no it doesn't. He's using timebank chips, he shouldn't have a second more than the timebank chips he's trying to use allow. The issue is just 'if timebank chips are misplaced can he still use them as long as their existence is proven'
@@mnm1273 and if they don't find those chips, then what? It opens up a can of worms you don't want. But hey, you believe what you want, Dude. No skin off my nose.
I think the ruling should be to continue the clock while the timebanks are located. The clock can be paused to explain the scenario to the players, but then resumes afterward. The issue with pausing the clock indefinitely is that it effectively gives him more time to think about the hand (not that he'd do this intentionally, but in principle it's exploitable). I don't agree with auto-killing his hand either, although I appreciate the point that in a larger-field tournament it may not be practical to deal with this. If the timebanks are not located, or if he uses more time than the retrieved timebanks grant him, then his hand is dead. If it is found that he went over time, even after the fact, then the hand is dead and the pot (as is) should be awarded to Shorr *even if Lonis calls and either wins or loses the hand.* In other words, if he calls and wins, but it is found that he is "over time," he must still forfeit the pot (minus the river call) to Shorr. Similarly, if he calls beyond the allocated time and loses (for example, in this hand, but if no timebanks were found), his call is invalid and he does not need to pay the river bet. In this case, it would save him, but that's what would happen normally if over time. My position effectively doesn't penalize the player for forgetting the timebanks, and could potentially slow things down after the call while the floor sorts out if he indeed had timebanks and if went over or not, etc. I think that's fine, it's an ultra-rare situation that will almost never be repeated, and maybe there could be one warning per table or something.
Craziest thing I’ve ever seen. One time there was a casino employee tournament for a satellite to Vegas. 1 table, everyone knew everyone. Couple hands after break, we see the flop three ways. Guy bets 2000 and this lady who’s never played has just a stack of black chips and calls leaving a few behind. Other person calls. Turn comes and the guy bets 4000. Lady has 600 left and says call. She then proceeds to take 4 yellow chips out of her pocket. Everyone was pretty stunned and eventually she empties 15k more from her pockets. I was dealing and having never dealt before didn’t know what to do. Thankfully everyone understood she didn’t know and let the hand play out as normal.
Rule 1 in most poker rule books, including PTDA: "The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules."
OK Nick giving Hellmuth a hard time over his claims about being an advisor to a bunch of companies was pretty funny, but that aside the table conversations are so inane I wish they'd just mute the players. Unfortunately people keep telling poker tournaments and streams that they want to hear the table talk. Me, I'd much rather hear the hand analysis.
Initially, I thought kill his hand until I saw what had happened. I agree with you, Jonathan. In a friendly tournament like this, get his time extensions.
Haven't got to the end of the video yet, but your GTO tournament charts don't reflect the advice you just gave. At 40 bb effective, a BB raising range is TT-QQ, 55-66, ATo-AKo, KQo, QJs+ and JTs. I don't see any K2o, Q3o, etc.
If it's not on the table before the hand began it's not in play. Players can justifiably use a lack of time banks to pressure a player, so having extra time not in plain sight is not dissimilar from not having your big chips on display. Of course, before the next hand you can sort out the missing time banks. Floor could give the player a very short amount of time to announce their decision in circumstances where they didn't realise they're hand would be folded - this would be discretionary, but certainly reasonable where the floor can act quickly to the situation.
'Not on the table before the hand began it's not in play' is a double edged sword. If he had accidentally left a 10k chip on the other table is that not in play when he calls Shorr's all in? Tricky situation but I would let him use the timebanks he says he has and pause the hand when he has made a decision, if it turns out that he wasn't correct then his hand is folded whatever he decided, as it would have been from running out of time. Having time banks at the front is not required like high denomination chips afaik, so not sure having them out of view should be considered that relevant, if they had been behind his wall of chips and out of view from Shorr, I don't think Shorr would have any grounds to complain when he used one. (Maybe if Shorr had specifically asked if he had timebanks, but then the situation wouldn't have arisen anyway.)
@@mattc3581 if you left a chip on the other table and got felted you'd be out, regardless of whether your opponent had enough to put you all-in with that chip. If you've still got chips when the mistake is found the chip would be added back to your stack next hand.
@@dwaynerex7385 for you and the skan dude, Johnathan clearly explained it in regards with PokerGo studio's environment. How do yall doubt a top world-class player with good reputation bruh.
Pause the tournament, check how many he has used, give him all the timebanks he should have that he hasn't used yet. If he did use all his timebanks his hand is dead.
So are you just supposed to get stacked every time on the SB with top pair mid kicker if someone has two pair or better? Surely BB will have that scenario some portion of the time, more than a random bluff for all in
This! I know it depends on the line both took down the streets but this is the type of call I think I'd make and I personally don't think I'm a great player lol. Whenever this happens to me, I feel like I made a blunder. How is this call supposed to be plus ev?
@@JasonJia909 In terms of just the chips he was getting pot odds that meant he only has to be winning 28% of the time to make this call correct. (I know chips value slightly differently in a tournament, but since we are talking +ev, on a basic level 28%). There are certainly missed draws or lower pairs with a draw that missed, even QQ, which Shorr could have turned into a bluff on the river. I don't know if that is 28% of Shorr's range but if the caller feels he has any read then he could certainly choose to make the call here.
@@mattc3581 ya maybe it's just hindsight but I feel like in these situations if I'm right 2/3 I'm not actually realizing 2x my stack in terms of actual equity or payout, but the 1/3 of the time I'm wrong (and it feels like it's more than 1/3) I legit lose all of my equity. Guess that's what ICM is all about haha
@@JasonJia909 Yeah, so as I said tournament the ICM value of the chips is slightly different. Cash game you can just say the odds of being right need to be better than the pot odds. But in a tournament the value of a big stack is not as much as the negative value of being out so you need better odds of being right to make it worth calling, how much better is very hard to model, but something to consider.
@mattc3581 yup yup exactly. Imo tourney is harder than cash haha. Plus variance is obv greater. But at least you don't have those days where you just run through multiple BIs within a span of a couple hours lol
There is more to rules than just fairness or whatever... they also help to keep things moving, the tournament clock is ticking and it's not right to burn time for the other players at the table. Should have just called the hand dead and moved things along.
its a hard B. The whole point of time limits and time bank is for the game action not to last forever. if he gets anything elce its not fair to the rest of the players
Assume he's telling the truth and check the other table/cameras. If you can verify, he gets his time banks back minus what he used. If you see he didn't have any left, if he folds, he gets a penalty. If he calls and is right, he gets a penalty and has to give the pot back to the person who should have won the hand.
The closest poker decisions are the ones that generate the most discussion and thought. Clearly Jesse considers calling and folding close in EV, so the theoretical cost of getting rushed into a snap decision because he lost his chips can't be much either. Of course the content producers want to make it sound like a momentous decision -- "for his tournament life!" -- and of course the tournament should be as fair as possible, but serious students of poker should treat it as a marginal decision either way that won't matter much over the course of his career.
You do understand that Lonis gets free extra time to think about the hand while the game is paused? You shouldn't be rewarded for such a mistake obviously
You're dead wrong...his hand should be dead in any instance. He should have seen he didn't have his cards before the time ended. It's no one elses fault he left them, if he did leave them. So you're saying he gets extra time to think while they go look and see? No, it's his fault and he should pay the penalty. Especially since he should have seen he was missing them beforehand. Harsh but the fairest way to deal with it. The rule is the rule and should NEVER be compromised under any circumstances
What do YOU think should be the ruling here? 🧑🏫
A. Play is paused whilst they try to locate his lost timebanks
B. It’s his own fault and play continues
C. He is given new timebanks
D. Other ruling..?
Lacking action by Lonis in any way, his hand is dead.
1. You can't pause the player from thinking about the hand, so pausing is a hard no!
2. To talk about and get him new time chips you still need to pause the play
3. Sorry bro, it's your own fault...dead hand city
Play should remain active while someone goes to find his timebanks. If timebanks aren't found, play is dead (fold). If the timebanks are found, take away the number of time banks used before an action is made, just as would have occurred if his timebanks were on the table. If not enough timebanks are remaining for the time before he made an action, play is also dead (fold) and all timebanks are taken.
Daniel Negreanu would have been shrieking "No participation trophies in my poker world!"
B. If Shorr went all-in with a bluff and then Lonis, after being given more time by the TD called and won the hand then there would be all hell to pay!
Play should immediately continue. Shorr won that easily but it could easily cause a 's' fight!
The Nick Shulman/helmuth commentary is worth listening to outside of the poker hand.
"It's not that I don't believe you, it's more that I don't give a *bleep*." Had me dying
I honestly thought they were in the booth at first, I was so confused lol.
Honestly fucking hilarious
"We know..... We know..... We know"
“I just think you might be using the word ‘advisor’ liberally.” 😂
Hellmuth never fails to not be cringe af.
@@dylanmccaskill643 - nobody believes that 26 companies would put Hellmuth as as a paid "advisor" on the payroll. My guess is that they paid him a consulting fee whenever they need a job. Especially when there are far more popular pokers with an active social media presence and business they've created (e.g. Doug Polk). We're in the era of influencers, and Hellmuth isn't one. Hellmuth doesn't bring the following to your business like a Doug Polk would.
lmao schulman is too funny, "can you advise this spot for us?"
It's the player's responsibility to keep track of his time chips. Period. Hand is dead.
At the end of the day what's the harm in looking for his timebank chips? If he doesn't have them his hand is dead, if he does then he should have to spend enough for his hand not to be dead
I know it's fun and all to say a quippy line and end with "period" but that compromise has basically no draw backs
@mnm1273 because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules. I don't think it's a big deal either way, but the TD should have killed the hand then looked for his time chips. You disagree. Ok.
@@dominicbiondi4097 "because it gives him more time to think about his hand then allowed by the rules" no it doesn't. He's using timebank chips, he shouldn't have a second more than the timebank chips he's trying to use allow. The issue is just 'if timebank chips are misplaced can he still use them as long as their existence is proven'
@@mnm1273 and if they don't find those chips, then what? It opens up a can of worms you don't want. But hey, you believe what you want, Dude. No skin off my nose.
@@dominicbiondi4097 "and if they don't find those chips, then what? " as I said in my very first comment "If he doesn't have them his hand is dead"
Schulman doing a great job of hiding his sarcasm in convo with Hellmuth hahahaha
ah yes the guy who raises big preflop and bets all three streets for value, "surely he's bluffing and doesn't have my king with ten kicker beat"
pros will polarise like this, not your 1/2 nits
@@slowfuse even so, it was pretty thin
He's such an idiot, I would never call a hand that beats me!
@@slowfuse well some bluffs got there and also you block clubs, so i think its a pretty easy fold
1. Always protect your chips
2. Always protect your cards
Newest rule 3. Always protect your time bank chips
Got so wrapped up in Schulman/Hellmuth that I forgot we were analyzing an actual hand here
I think the ruling should be to continue the clock while the timebanks are located. The clock can be paused to explain the scenario to the players, but then resumes afterward. The issue with pausing the clock indefinitely is that it effectively gives him more time to think about the hand (not that he'd do this intentionally, but in principle it's exploitable). I don't agree with auto-killing his hand either, although I appreciate the point that in a larger-field tournament it may not be practical to deal with this.
If the timebanks are not located, or if he uses more time than the retrieved timebanks grant him, then his hand is dead. If it is found that he went over time, even after the fact, then the hand is dead and the pot (as is) should be awarded to Shorr *even if Lonis calls and either wins or loses the hand.* In other words, if he calls and wins, but it is found that he is "over time," he must still forfeit the pot (minus the river call) to Shorr. Similarly, if he calls beyond the allocated time and loses (for example, in this hand, but if no timebanks were found), his call is invalid and he does not need to pay the river bet. In this case, it would save him, but that's what would happen normally if over time.
My position effectively doesn't penalize the player for forgetting the timebanks, and could potentially slow things down after the call while the floor sorts out if he indeed had timebanks and if went over or not, etc. I think that's fine, it's an ultra-rare situation that will almost never be repeated, and maybe there could be one warning per table or something.
Wow, I knew Hellmuth was full of himself, but he is going off here. Schulman at the end saying what everyone was thinking. 😂
Craziest thing I’ve ever seen. One time there was a casino employee tournament for a satellite to Vegas. 1 table, everyone knew everyone. Couple hands after break, we see the flop three ways. Guy bets 2000 and this lady who’s never played has just a stack of black chips and calls leaving a few behind. Other person calls. Turn comes and the guy bets 4000. Lady has 600 left and says call. She then proceeds to take 4 yellow chips out of her pocket. Everyone was pretty stunned and eventually she empties 15k more from her pockets. I was dealing and having never dealt before didn’t know what to do. Thankfully everyone understood she didn’t know and let the hand play out as normal.
That's absolutely hilarious and 10 times crazier than this video
You were lucky everyone at the table was forgiving
Helmuth straight up cappin’
WTF is Helmuth saying in this video. Jesus Christ do I have to take him serious cause of the holdem bracelets?
Rule 1 in most poker rule books, including PTDA: "The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules."
OK Nick giving Hellmuth a hard time over his claims about being an advisor to a bunch of companies was pretty funny, but that aside the table conversations are so inane I wish they'd just mute the players.
Unfortunately people keep telling poker tournaments and streams that they want to hear the table talk. Me, I'd much rather hear the hand analysis.
Initially, I thought kill his hand until I saw what had happened. I agree with you, Jonathan. In a friendly tournament like this, get his time extensions.
Haven't got to the end of the video yet, but your GTO tournament charts don't reflect the advice you just gave. At 40 bb effective, a BB raising range is TT-QQ, 55-66, ATo-AKo, KQo, QJs+ and JTs. I don't see any K2o, Q3o, etc.
Vs. a SB limp, specifically.
Love your content. Find it very helpful.
Phil Helmet is pathetic
If it's not on the table before the hand began it's not in play. Players can justifiably use a lack of time banks to pressure a player, so having extra time not in plain sight is not dissimilar from not having your big chips on display.
Of course, before the next hand you can sort out the missing time banks.
Floor could give the player a very short amount of time to announce their decision in circumstances where they didn't realise they're hand would be folded - this would be discretionary, but certainly reasonable where the floor can act quickly to the situation.
'Not on the table before the hand began it's not in play' is a double edged sword. If he had accidentally left a 10k chip on the other table is that not in play when he calls Shorr's all in?
Tricky situation but I would let him use the timebanks he says he has and pause the hand when he has made a decision, if it turns out that he wasn't correct then his hand is folded whatever he decided, as it would have been from running out of time.
Having time banks at the front is not required like high denomination chips afaik, so not sure having them out of view should be considered that relevant, if they had been behind his wall of chips and out of view from Shorr, I don't think Shorr would have any grounds to complain when he used one. (Maybe if Shorr had specifically asked if he had timebanks, but then the situation wouldn't have arisen anyway.)
I'm pretty sure that if he had left a chip on the other table that chip would be gone forever
@@mattc3581 if you left a chip on the other table and got felted you'd be out, regardless of whether your opponent had enough to put you all-in with that chip. If you've still got chips when the mistake is found the chip would be added back to your stack next hand.
If Phil was half as good in reality as he is in his own head, he’d be the best person in the history of the world😂
Give him 30 or 60 seconds and deal with time banks later. I think he got so stressed and confused that he made a mistake
He might have already used them though...people are sneaky in poker and some times forget.
That would be unfair if he didn't have the time banks at all, suddenly all players would be asking for an extra time bank
@@dwaynerex7385 for you and the skan dude, Johnathan clearly explained it in regards with PokerGo studio's environment. How do yall doubt a top world-class player with good reputation bruh.
If you can't hold it, you don't own it.
If he had the time banks then his hand should be live whether he's ahead or behind in the hand.
If he had none then it's an automatic dead hand.
So, how does Hellmuth plan to be a billionaire someday?
Pause the tournament, check how many he has used, give him all the timebanks he should have that he hasn't used yet. If he did use all his timebanks his hand is dead.
So are you just supposed to get stacked every time on the SB with top pair mid kicker if someone has two pair or better? Surely BB will have that scenario some portion of the time, more than a random bluff for all in
This! I know it depends on the line both took down the streets but this is the type of call I think I'd make and I personally don't think I'm a great player lol. Whenever this happens to me, I feel like I made a blunder. How is this call supposed to be plus ev?
@@JasonJia909 In terms of just the chips he was getting pot odds that meant he only has to be winning 28% of the time to make this call correct. (I know chips value slightly differently in a tournament, but since we are talking +ev, on a basic level 28%).
There are certainly missed draws or lower pairs with a draw that missed, even QQ, which Shorr could have turned into a bluff on the river. I don't know if that is 28% of Shorr's range but if the caller feels he has any read then he could certainly choose to make the call here.
@@mattc3581 ya maybe it's just hindsight but I feel like in these situations if I'm right 2/3 I'm not actually realizing 2x my stack in terms of actual equity or payout, but the 1/3 of the time I'm wrong (and it feels like it's more than 1/3) I legit lose all of my equity. Guess that's what ICM is all about haha
@@JasonJia909 Yeah, so as I said tournament the ICM value of the chips is slightly different. Cash game you can just say the odds of being right need to be better than the pot odds. But in a tournament the value of a big stack is not as much as the negative value of being out so you need better odds of being right to make it worth calling, how much better is very hard to model, but something to consider.
@mattc3581 yup yup exactly. Imo tourney is harder than cash haha. Plus variance is obv greater. But at least you don't have those days where you just run through multiple BIs within a span of a couple hours lol
There is more to rules than just fairness or whatever... they also help to keep things moving, the tournament clock is ticking and it's not right to burn time for the other players at the table. Should have just called the hand dead and moved things along.
Fate was on his side because his dead hand would’ve saved him money.
Dear god Hellmuth is so insufferable.
Man. Thats a weird spot. You know it really affected him.
Dont make special contextual rules. One rule.
I could listen to Shulman bust chops all day
its a hard B. The whole point of time limits and time bank is for the game action not to last forever. if he gets anything elce its not fair to the rest of the players
Assume he's telling the truth and check the other table/cameras. If you can verify, he gets his time banks back minus what he used. If you see he didn't have any left, if he folds, he gets a penalty. If he calls and is right, he gets a penalty and has to give the pot back to the person who should have won the hand.
The closest poker decisions are the ones that generate the most discussion and thought. Clearly Jesse considers calling and folding close in EV, so the theoretical cost of getting rushed into a snap decision because he lost his chips can't be much either.
Of course the content producers want to make it sound like a momentous decision -- "for his tournament life!" -- and of course the tournament should be as fair as possible, but serious students of poker should treat it as a marginal decision either way that won't matter much over the course of his career.
Does anyone else find Renka and Donnie's commentary unlistenable?
Hand should be DQ. Bring the cards or you lose them
Pause. Get the time bank chips. Then proceed
You do understand that Lonis gets free extra time to think about the hand while the game is paused? You shouldn't be rewarded for such a mistake obviously
@@pierrearr who cares? He made the bigger mistake of calling.
@@mannygomez8738 I refuse to believe you're that dumb. The outcome of a single hand has nothing to do with making a correct ruling lol
If he is out of time bank chips the hand should be dead.
Time expired before he started looking. Dead hand
boasting to schulman seems pretty -EV
They need ban sunglasses at tournaments….who agrees? 😂
How do people forget timebanks? There litterally the size of chips, kept right next to ur chips. Do people forget chips too??
Personally, if you don’t have the time bank chips, sorry. It could set a precedent that you don’t want. Dead hand.
Hand dead. Lucky too, he might have called.
Hand is dead. If it's not on the table, it's not in play.
No one wants or cares about your 2 cents on the matter in that moment Phil.
Forgot his time Bank chips? The hand is dead either way
You're dead wrong...his hand should be dead in any instance. He should have seen he didn't have his cards before the time ended. It's no one elses fault he left them, if he did leave them. So you're saying he gets extra time to think while they go look and see? No, it's his fault and he should pay the penalty. Especially since he should have seen he was missing them beforehand. Harsh but the fairest way to deal with it. The rule is the rule and should NEVER be compromised under any circumstances
Love This
God give him a chance to fold but he still call.
Give him time, and the hand is dead if they cant find the time chips, even if he called. Easy
this is common...
Dead hand.
Technically yes
You snooze you lose imo
He forgot his time banks; it's his fault.
His hand is dead
hand is dead
pause
Nice hand,shame about the Donald Trump of poker bottying on in the background
trying to make a billion baby
glhf
ruling, no time chit; hand is dead when time runs out.