D&D:O Shorts #1 - Two Weapon Fighting vs. Great Weapon Fighting
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 дек 2020
- Can Two-Weapon Fighting ever really compete, damage-wise, with Great-Weapon Fighting in D&D 5e? Let's discuss.
Master Sustained Damage Comparison:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Podcast Version Available Everywhere and Here: dndoptimized.buzzsprout.com/
/ dndoptimized
/ dnddeepdive
/ colbypoulson
Bro, people who like this type of content don’t care how long it is...
Don't believe her when she says that to you
Facts! Come on, its a nerd topic. :)
The length of these videos is part of the draw for me I can listen for an hour and it makes time run faster
lenght =/= bloat.
Make it as long as you need it to be to say everything you want to say.
But you should make it concise
@@texteel there is always Reddit etc for quick answers.. & other Channels like literally DnDshorts who focus on quick info compromised in short videos. Colby though will explain the pros and cons and possibilities and nooks and crannies etc.. in his time.. and yeah, for him 20 mins is REALLY short & his regular viewers (🙋🏼♀️) don't mind at all & rather enjoy the lengthy in depth videos😊
Liam O’Brien looks really good. Didn’t know he was so good at math!
(Stop worrying about the video quality; you are the show, man.)
lol thanks! (Dagger Dagger Dagger!)
Ultimately, these short deep dives into the math behind specific decisions are exactly why I come to this channel, and the length is much more manageable! Please keep these coming!
Hitting X and whipping out both sabers in KOTOR was badass, I did it all the time while I was running around.
cast force speed and then spam twirling your lightsabers while running around ^^ for sure.
If you wanted to play a small race that has disadvantage on heavy weapons (because that's allowed), two-weapon fighting is competitive.
Woo, almost 1k subscriber gain since I subscribed a couple months ago! You're growing quickly and putting out stellar content, keep it up!
thanks!
I love watching your channel grow. Keep up all the hard work. it won't be long until you're up there with all the big D&D channels. One note, now that you have 3 separate shows, you should sort them into playlists to keep the channel organized.
Thanks! Yeah, thought about this today - thanks for the reminder :)
I love this video, very useful. I read a post comparing GWM PAM and TWF today. I’ve only ever played full-casters, but I’ve been thinking a lot about the various ways to Gish. Familiarizing myself on the ins and outs of martial classes involves lots of math, thank you for the helpful considerations.
Really enjoyed this new format!
I think fighting with two handed weapons should’ve been something like “ As a bonus action you can make an attack using both weapons at once” or something
Two weapon fighting is already pretty good at very low levels. If that were the case, it would be good at mid levels and overpowered early on.
I've seen an added bullet to the Dual Wielder feat that allows you to make two attacks with that bonus action attack while TWF. Must be very careful with on-hit scaling. I like adding this kind of thing to weak characters (all dual wielders) to make them feel cool
@@Adam-pc2cm You mean unlike a V Human GWM from turn 1? A lvl 2 Barb can use Reckless Attack to offset the -5 to hit for GWM so not you're swinging a D10 or D12 at +13 damage. Yeah...the guy with a second D8 +3 damage will be OP. Right.
At the very least the two weapons fighting Feat should let you attack with both weapons in one action
22 min short xD I love it
😂
More videos from this amazing channel the better!
This was nice! I like the short(er) focused video. It'd be nice if you could also offer up some analysis of homebrew fixes that some DMs use. Maybe not to push a certain fix, but to help DMs who are looking for fixes understand the impact they'll have at various levels.
Man, I’ve been looking heavily into this recently. Excited to hear your take on the comparisons between these two
Great stuff, Colby
but gotta say had me laughing with the suggestion you were doing something quick 😂
Ok, maybe a little too much to ask: a video about optimizing exploration (wilderness, dungeons...). Something about the best uses for the tools and abilities :D
I like your videos, and I really appreciate the work you put into your spread sheets. I have spent some time falling down the rabbit hole of bounded accuracy in order to understand the hows and whys of the changes when they shifted to D&D Next (5e). An interesting topic to explore may be where the line of bounded accuracy is and how do you break it. For Example, your attack modifier is so great that every hit lands, making armor class irrelevant, you can do less damage but if you can break bounded accuracy, your DPR increases. On the opposite side, you can create a build that has an impossibly high AC so no, pure melee attacks will ever land making you impossible challenging to hit. You survive longer, and while you may sacrifice DPR, you survive longer to deal more total damage. Then there is the middle ground optimization where you examine the combination of both, looking at your AC as a survivability to continue to do DPR round after round, and your attack modifier and dmg to be optimal. If you haven't followed Alice yet down that rabbit hole, there are some really good articles about understanding bounded accuracy and how to break it. Keep up the good work.
Thanks will look into it!
@@DnDDeepDive I put together a quick demonstration in the style of the sheets to highlight this point.
You can see that a +2 bow with +2 ammo outperforms a third shot when going against enemies with AC > 13. Where is someone going to get a 2+ bow? --> by upcasting Magic Weapon, and where is someone going to get +2 ammo, it costs 5gp and you can collect half on pickup. +3 Ammo is just 11gp too, still pretty cheap when examining the benefits of it. If you want a copy I think I set it up for you to download.
The Ability Score Modifier only applies to the first dice roll. It would be an easy edit if you wanted to tweak it though just modify the Calculated Damage at the bottom of the set. Also, the Damage is calculated based on the average dice roll, and that damage multiplied by the probability of rolling a successful attack. In this way you get a better representation of what the damage should average out on both successful and unsuccessful rounds. Best of luck in your analysis.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xtmfcROP8NJayrk0gbLpAet340ulinzAiZ9j8AowNs8/edit?usp=sharing
@@jameshwren Thanks!
Added a Relative HP Calculator sheet. It is the less often talked about optimization technique,
Offense wins gams, Defense wins championships. As AC goes up and improving the difficulty to hit, Healing Spells also become exponentially better, especially over 25 AC.
@@DnDDeepDive docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xtmfcROP8NJayrk0gbLpAet340ulinzAiZ9j8AowNs8/edit?usp=sharing
The main issue I see with dualwielding is that the off hand is locked to bonus action. You can't leverage an action surge or an extra attack like another character would with a 2h weapon.
Eldritch knight needs like 1 tier high of spells and their spells to scale that way xD such a cool class conceptually, kinda sucks they aren't the best
In the context of the phb, I think they’re top tier. The problem comes when the hexblade and bladesinger entered 5e. Those two subclasses are Much stronger gish roles. But giving a fighter some shield spell slots is such a huge boon.
@@dylancumpston2524 necro, but true
It's 3 years later and maybe some rules, feats, or features have come along to help... maybe not. But I like the idea of fighting with 2 daggers since I reread it and found you can make ranged attacks if the weapons have the thrown property. This means either your main attack (action) can be thrown, or your secondary attack (bonus action) can be thrown, or both, or neither, I love this versatility of choice that's open to two-weapon fighting with daggers.
I know there is a fighting style called Thrown Weapon Master that allows you to add +2 to the damage now and a feat that allows you to get a fighting style in case your build doesn't give you one. Incidentally only fighter, ranger, and swords bard give you the fighting style without taking the Fighting Initiate feat.
There is also a feat from one of the Critical Role books that allows you to add 20 feet to the short range and 40 feet to the long range of weapons with the thrown property, among a few other things it gives you.
I think this can be a fun build even if it falls short of the damage output of other builds. It can do enough to still be relevant. And it's just so much fun playing style, and flavor wise!
Hell yeah, back around the way the various dnd dieties intended! Definite noticeable improvement in quality from the last one with the new software; as to be expected as you get used to it!
This channel is growing nicely. Good job.
Hmm weird idea: Twinned Shadow Blade? Mixed with Extra Attack.
You can't Twin Spell Shadow Blade because it has a range of Self. Good idea though, believe me, I wish it did.
Oh I forgot about that restriction. Thanks for pointing out.
@@AnoNYmous-bz2ef Anytime! My best use of Shadow Blade came before the Tasha's Errata. I play a Human (Variant) Arcane Trickster Rogue whose main means of stealth kills is Shadow Blade. 2d8 Psychic starting at 7th level is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you can generate advantage to also stack Sneak Attack.
So happy for more content, so sad for dual wielding. Loved the Kotor reference, I was expecting a Drizzt memory. I have a solution however; the rules for creating custom spells. TWO Shadowblades at the same time, probably a lvl 4 spell, scales at 6 and 8.
I'm running a Drow Bladesinger Priestess of Eilistraee who's only offensive spell aside from Shadow Blade is Mind Sliver. The rest of my spells are defensive and utility. I can confirm, it is a TON of fun. Our DM is fine with the fact that at level two he can't hit me, because I he loves my roleplay and how I am trying so hard to not fight unless absolutely necessary.
The little halfling is definitely your new monk build mma fighter
What I find interesting is quarterstaffs, they count for the polearm master feat, and can be wielded in one hand allowing you to use a shield or use the dueling fighting style. Also using the staff spell focus as an improvised quarterstaff because it basically is one allows you to use your proficiency in simple weapons to use it. They are monk weapons so the second attack from polearm master can be replaced with the monk die(eventually a d10 instead of the d4). I'm sure there are other fun tricks you could do with them too.
I wouldnt invest levels in monk for a little bit increase in damage in one attack. Besides monks already have a free bonus action attack that has the same conditions as polearm master, their martial arts. Though that requires you to not use a shield or armor.
Came up with this idea for dual wielding.
Two -WEAPON FIGHTING
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. If you have the Extra Attack class feature instead, you can use a bonus action to make two attacks. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attacks, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
And to balance things out...
GREAT WEAPON FIGHTING (Fighting Style)
When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2 . Additionally, you add your Strength ability modifier multiplied by 1.5 to the damage of your attacks. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain these benefits.
Love this kind of discussion video. Could you maybe see if there are other none bladesinger builds that would work well with shadowblade. Maybe a sorcerer dip with a bard to get extra attack. Or maybe warlock?
A couple weeks ago Crawford went on a tiny twitter rant about this. The gist of it was, the Two-Weapon Fighting rules on page 195 (which state that your bonus-action attack does not get your ability-mod to damage) ONLY applies when you are using those rules. Anything else that gives you a bonus action to attack does not use those rules, and the general rule is to add your ability-mod to damage.
Shorts#1 Video- No Diff, Audio - Yes! Somehow There is Less Echo in The backround.
Great video. I've had the same question myself.
One thing I would really like to see is an optimized de-buffer. I watched your optimized support character, which was great, but it was focused on buffing/healing allies and their abilities. What if I wanted to optimize how well I control the battlefield and lockdown down enemies with status effect, spells, etc.?
And as a follow-up question, is there a way to determine which is better: buffing one's allies or de-buffing one's enemies? A concrete example of this conundrum is choosing between Bless and Bane for your concentration at level 1 or choosing between Haste or Slow for your concentration once you have access to 3rd level spells. Any thoughts?
I love the concept, it's just so hard to quantify... so heavily dependent upon what you're fighting and their own resistance to your spells, and the stat that you're debuffing, and, for example, if you're lowering their chance to hit, that will be better if the character they're attacking has a high AC vs. a low, but how do you know who they're going to attack? etc. Hm...
With regards to video quality, I wouldn't worry too much and I can hardly tell the difference. The is a vlog that really could be a podcast. I would focus on anything that can streamline your process. If anything I would look at making some cool visual aids maybe graphical representation of your data or maybe animated shorts to show fun little animations of how your data would work in theory.
Watched a bunch of your videos now and I think I'd like to see your #1 optimized build.
Hmmm... would depend on the goal of the build. Support? Tank? Sustained DPR? Burst/Nova damage?
@@DnDDeepDive wouldn't really matter what type as long as it was early enough in the process... from concept to completion and especially how you resolve choice branches...
@@perlygatekeeper In that case, I'd say it's *probably* this one: ruclips.net/video/8g869Lju5Ws/видео.html
I enjoyed the crunchy video! I will be watching more on this channel!
Have you considered using a straight Rogue using a Shadow blade (so Arcane Trickster), the 2 Weapon Fighting feat and fighting style, and the Sentinel feat so that they can get an attack using their Reaction when someone attacks the Tank (and to be fair, the Fighter with Polearm Master attacking with their Reaction as well) for the Two Weapon style combatant? Getting Sneak Attack twice per Combat Round (once in their Turn, once in an opponent's turn) really ups their damage per round. Not sure if it gets there- I think it will depend on how often the Great Weapon Master -5 to hit makes them miss.
Thanks! I like the idea! It's a little tough to assume they'll be attacking someone else every round (depends on how much the DM is going to meta game you :) ) but I'll have to put it on the list of potential future episodes!
@@DnDDeepDive I agree, the DM attitude does play into it- but a tank with the ability to force opponents to either attack them or have disadvantage should help!
@@markzohn5986 for sure!
Rhythm of War! My next book. I just finished Ready Player Two but will be starting Rhythm this week. It's pretty beefy!
It's sooooo good. Much more similar in pacing, tone, and theme to Oathbringer than the first two, but I am loving it.
The best build I found for two weapon fighting is the swords bard with spirit shroud as a magical secret but I haven’t crunched the blade singers
Shorts too! Yes!
"shorts" being a relative term here, of course ;)
@@DnDDeepDive lmao you aren't wrong there my guy
Love mixing it up with some short form videos. Could you talk about damage dealt as it impacts AC? Like I have a hard time using something other than shield and sword w/ dueling for that mix of high AC and consistent damage.
I guess what it boils down to is: how much damage are you willing to give up for a +2 bump to your AC? (Of course, there can be other benefits to wearing a shield, if you take the Shield Master feat especially, or the protection fighting style, or find a magic shield, etc.) At the end of the day, unless you're somehow using shadowblade, your best damage will come from a PAM/GWM combo, but that requires investment in feats that, once taken, will make it that much harder to justify equipping a shield...
That said, for Paladins, especially if you multiclass into Sorc, taking a shield is a no-brainer since most of your damage is coming from smite instead of your weapon...
It also kinda sucks because there is also a magic item and MANY different class abilities that give bonus action attacks outside of feats, but two weapon fighting is so powerful early game that it makes buffing it difficult as it could then be overpowered early on.
I’ve been going over Lv1 damage today. If you go rogue and take magic initiate hex, TWF beats out a lv 1 fighter PAM (over 4 rounds where the rogue doesn’t get 2 attacks on round 1) but a barbarian PAM still beats it out. I was going against 13 AC because that’s the average for a CR1 creature but I can’t imagine it makes a big difference because neither use GWM
Again sir, great video. When it comes to martial blade singer, what’s the thought with dual wield and tensers transformation vs the “big stick” fighters?
haven't crunched the numbers, but pretty sure that, depending on level and enemy AC of course, it would likely outperform my Fightarian - at least when the spell first becomes available - say, levels 11-14 or 15 would be my guess...
I never remotely considered this before, but I wonder if Tenser's Transformation would be good on a Bladesinger Monk? Follow me on this - Minotaurs and Lizardmen have "natural weapons" that can be used to make unarmed strikes. When pressed, Jeremy Crawford has said that natural weapons count as weapon attacks for the purpose of things like spells, features, and Divine Smite. All together, we're talking about a monk/wizard that can do 4 hits (2 attacks + flurry of blows), each 1d6+2d12+mods... that's about 86 average damage if everything hits, starting at level 13. Not too shabby.
@@RJWdevelopment ha ha! The build would be super MAD, but would have a fantastic AC with bumps from both Wis and Int (while bladesinging). I think I would totally do this *if* I were playing a one-shot or something that started with level 13+ characters :P. Getting them there would be slightly painful...
As a DM, I'd allow a player to make two off-hand attacks if they have the extra attack feature and the feat.
So 11th lvl fighter would make 3 or cap it at 2? Cus a hasted echo knight with a +4 con would be able to make. 15 atks in a single round. If you keep it at 2 it’s 14. Echo knights are scary.
@@Taguren I'm not sure if I would allow a third off-hand attack... I'd have to see whether the player in question is able to do their turns quickly enough as a level 10 fighter before judging that.
15 attacks may take some time. On the other hand: a wizard concentrating on a 6th level animate objects and casting scorching ray at 5th level would be making 18 attacks, to put things in perspective.
It's a difficult one, yeah - the only thing that comes to mind that two-weapon fighting *might* benefit from better is with thrown weapons.
Because AFAIK, you can start with two weapons in hand, throw one - throw the other with a BA - and that second one will benefit from Dueling. Then draw another weapon w/ multiattack, and attack again - again getting dueling, and all 3 getting thrown weapon style.
It's still not *great*, but with a Yklwa you can technically be attacking with a d8 weapon, and getting 1 attack at +2 dmg and all other ones at +4 on top of regular. One downside is needing 3 fighting styles... But does have some benefits, as you're not walking into melee (not necessary with PAM/GWM as well, obviously, but those tend to be melee in my experience). I don't *think* it works out, but it might be an interesting one to try to optimize as a challenge.
I think your point is very strong. That raises the question: Is there a consensus yet on how to best fix this in terms of house rules?
Not that I know of - someone else mentioned Treant Monk's homebrew fix, which is probably in the right direction. I'd say a tweak to the Dual Wielder feat that maybe would grant a second off-hand weapon attack after level 5 might be a good place to start. Or perhaps allowing the player to add their proficiency bonus to attacks made while Two-Weapon Fighting?
@@DnDDeepDive Hmm... I think I will crunch some numbers and post some ideas in the subreddit.
I have a divine soul, devotion paladin sorcadin that regularly out damages our great weapon master champion fighter (lvl 17). I am Sword/shield 6 paladin, 11 sorcerer... stuff like spirit shroud + smites+ quickened booming blade/3smights. Creates incredible nova.
I'd love to see a Sorcadin build (Sorcerer and Paladin)
on the list!
By later levels, the fighter barbarian might have a magic weapon, which might stack hard enough to negate shadow blade, since it can't stack with a magic weapon. So while this is true if your DM never gives anything, usually the fighter will pull ahead again anyways
Trickster rogue. At 13 can cast booming blade then attack with shadow blade as bonus action. And they get sneak attack. Should be close or higher than the eldritch knight.
I think you run into trouble on this but may be wrong. I think booming blade doesn't count as an attack action its a spell casting . Off hand attack as a bonus action requires you take the attack action, so off hand attack with shadow blade won't work if you booming bladed.
@@jeffdietz630 You are correct sir. I guess one would have to take 6 in bladesinger. That would be booming blade with shorts word, a second short sword, then a shadow blade. Should be 6d6+5d8+flat damagex2.
This was also errata'd in tasha's as booming blade now requires a material component of a weapon with a monetary vaule. Which the shadow blades dont count as
There is ONE dual wielding option that might compete - two lances. I've been mulling over this one for weeks. Tasha's unleashed the option of super strong, small characters, that can take a feat at level 1 (Dual Wielder), and by Level 3, both Artificer Battle Smiths and Ranger Beast Masters can be mounted. Rangers get the benefit of 2 weapon fighting style, which is the larger boost to damage early on. Artificers can infuse weapons and armor for extra stats, and use Intelligence for damage, making them SAD - easier to scale. By level 4, they can take Piercer, to push Strength to 18 and a modest boost to damage (rolling 3 d12's on a crit sounds almost unfair). All of this isn't even mentioning the incredible utility of your mount being able to dash every turn. You're zipping through enemy lines 80 Feet at a time, and because you're hitting them with reach, you don't have to worry about opportunity attacks most of the time.
From there, I'm having trouble deciding which route, or mix of routes, will lead to the most late game damage.
Barbarians can add rage damage and advantage on every attack, and zipping 80 Feet away, don't have to worry about the disadvantage on defense. Ancestral Guardian can tap someone and run away, giving the enemy disadvantage on attacks on your allies, but too far away to retaliate.
Fighters of course add the 3rd attack late game. Boring but efficient. Also brutal burst damage with Action Surge. Cavalier gets a bunch of mounted combat bonuses.
But one intriguing option I'm thinking about is... :: dramatic music:: Bladesinger. Concentration of choice might be Darkness, and now you're COMPLETELY immune to opportunity attacks (enemies can only OA against targets they can see), and you end every turn far enough away that the Darkness doesn't affect your allies. With your high AC, they'll have a tough time hitting you with disadvantage. AND if your DM lets you play as a "small elf," (Christmas theme?) you can use Elven Accuracy on your lances, because you use INT not STR for all your damage. At Wizard 5 you take the Phantom Steed spell, and Mounted Combatant feat, and now you're hitting with advantage every turn by default, and freeing up concentration for Animate Objects (Phantom Steed is NOT a concentration spell).
You're much better than I am at the high level stuff, so you may have even better ideas going past level 9. But for now, I already have so many possible combinations to consider. I was going to spend a bunch of time crunching in Excel before debuting this idea, but today's video (and the Beast Master and Bladesinger 2.0 videos) were just so relevant to this idea, I just had to share this work in progress. (Speaking of which, you asked what good is a Crossbow Expert Beast Master? Well howabout a mounted one!)
Sorry for the long post as usual, lol. I know Mr. 1600 subscribers over here is running shorter on time to respond these days. All good! Just happy to see your channel's success.
ha ha! Mounted combatants! Noooooooo! :) I have to do this eventually.
I like this the builds are awesome, but unless it is a build I think I will want to run I don't want to watch the whole thing. These shorter videos covering things similar to this seem awesome. Also, I saw a comment where someone called you Critlander best nickname ever.
Hey man I just came up with a homebrew feat for this, would like to know your thoughts one it. Maths wise it matches a Greatsword with Great Weapon Fighting style and Great Weapon Master Feat :)
Two Weapon Master
Prerequisites: Fighting Style- Two Weapon Fighting.
When you choose this feat you may choose to adopt a Two Weapon Master style each round of combat.
Masterful Flurry:
When using Two Weapon fighting, instead of an attack you can instead as a bonus action take a -5 penalty to hit on all attacks and double the number of attacks you can make that round. In addition, you add +4 damage to each attack.
Half of these attacks must come from your offhand weapon that you are wielding, and you can add your modifier to the damage of these attacks. (E.g. Str, Dex or Cha etc) These attacks can only be applied to yourself and not be passed to another creature by any means. (E.g cannot be used in conjunction with the beast master trait)
Whirlwind Defence:
As a bonus action you gain +1 AC when Two Weapon fighting. Also if you, or a friendly creature that is within 5 feet of you is targeted by an attack, as a reaction, you may impose disadvantage on that attack.
Looks fun! I wonder if that Flurry might be a little *too* strong, but you should try it out in game and see :)
@@DnDDeepDive its equal to GWM, GW Fighting with a greatsword :) 0.2 difference on average (if it all hits). Unless there is a crit involved and GWM is way ahead ^^ Let me know how it goes our dwarf fighter will start using this sunday
Ok.. anf how this flurry works with extra attack? You give up your bonus action attack in order to get 4 attacks?
@@Fr4nZeR Yeah that's how I intended it. And it still matches Greatweapon Master blow for blow so doesn't blow anything out of proportion.
@@Fr4nZeR And yes that means a level 20 fighter would get 8
Nice video format. I played a Minotaur Stone Sorcerer until lvl 9 (lvl 8 sorcerer and lvl 1 paladin, my GM stoped the campaign before i could take lvl 2 paladin saddly). I had a blast playing that character and was wondering how would optimize it for damage or tankiness. Thanks in advance!
will add it to the list!
What about the champion fighter:
Lvl1 - two weapon fighting
Lvl4 - dual wielder for battleaxe and warhammer and +1AC
Lvl6 - crusher feat
Lvl8 - slasher feat
Lvl 10 - Defense style +1AC.
Lvl 11 - 4 attacks with a good chance to proc one of the feats
Its not about damage per se, but about usage of attacks and conditions
what about some druid using flame blade spell?
I should also add shadowblade stands for 1 minute and we don't get more than one 7th lvl slot very soon to have it as 5d8. we can have Flameblade for 10 minutes (for back to back combats) and if we cast it as 6th lvl we get 4d6, and 5d6 for 8th lvl slot.
I didn't do enough math to make sure how it works but I'm thinking a druid using shillelagh (before combat or as a prepared action) on the offhand, and flameblade in the main-hand, can do something comparable to the bladesinger.
There's a reason armies were dominated by "we hit people hard with our long heavy sticks" and not "we poke people a lot with our small shiny pokers" for such a long time.
but multiclass and feats are both optional rules
and might as well be homebrew and are just as well balanced as you pointed out
Order Cleric Voice of Authority on Rogues to get a guaranteed 2nd sneak attack (thru a reaction attack) evens up some of the comparisons. I would argue the big fighter barbarian would not be optimal to grant the reaction attack bc their damage per attack is much less than that of a rogue. Between blesses and healing words you can keep your rogue in constant reaction attack mode.
Even works for ranged sneaks.
If you have any big damage per attacks hitters, (i.e like Paladin Smiters or Rogues) keep pumping spells onto them for the reaction attacks. Unfortunately the reaction attack granted by Voice of Authority I don't think qualifies as an attack of opportunity so I don't think you can load it up with Booming Blade if you have warcaster.
But to your original point dual v. Two handed agreed two handed is superior wrt damage.
Consider a 1 level Order cleric dip on an abjuration wizard with eldritch adept casting mage armor via armor of shadows on your rogue every round for extra sneak attack and as a means of charging up your ward. A twofer resource free ward charge and granting free reaction sneak attack.
Shhh! You’re giving away my next “team up” episode! 😋
@@DnDDeepDive Need to confer with dungeon master to determine if familiar delivered mage armor is cast from you or from the familiar. If the former it should qualify for Voice of Authority and increases the order/abjurers range in this gambit significantly from touch to 100 ft.
Dang fly in the ointment. In order to qualify for Voice of Authority you have to cast a spell with a spell slot of 1 or greater. Casting mage armor via armor of shadows does not use a spell slot and therefore won't qualify. Ohhh well.
1. Nerf Polearm Master (do not add modifiers to damage from attacks with the blunt end).
2. Nerf Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter (only once per round).
3. Be happy.
Have you crunched the numbers on how spirit shroud stacks up to shadow blade when it comes to two weapon fighting? Since you would get the extra D8s on your offhand attacks as well.
yep! It's close, but doesn't *quite* get there (at least, not until you're upcasting both at 7th level, but at that point, you should probably be using Animate Objects or Tenser's or Summon Fey). Still worth considering though, especially with the nice slow feature you also get.
It's probably pretty broken but I'd like to see something that allows you to keep attacking if you have 2 weapons and don't miss. Like every time you land an attack you can make an extra attack on the same target with a weapon in your other hand
I've been toying around with this build. Pure fighter Lvl 11 / eldritch knight /custom lineage (elf) / Feats: Crossbow Expert (0) / Sharpshooter (4) / Eldritch Adept (Devil's Sight) (6) / Elven Accuracy (8)
Access to Darkness spell around lvl 7. Granted you won't be 20 in Dex until you hit lvl 12. All the elements for damage are here [Triple Advantage / -5 to hit +10 to damage (mitigated a little by the Archery fighting style)/ Bonus Attack/ 3 attacks / round]. Without multiclasing you get much faster progression, most campaigns I play in tend to end around lvls 10-13. Any thoughts?
I like it. In my Ranged Fighter build I essentially went this same route but without easy access to advantage, it suffered. When I redid the build (episode 18) I opted for Warlock levels after Fighter 11 to compensate. EK is probably the better route - even though you delay your Dex cap, getting access to darkness/devil's sight earlier would be worth it. That said, the once per turn damage from both Rune Knight and Genie Patron probably puts that build ahead at level 14... but yeah, especially if you're ending the campaign at 10-13, it makes total sense.
let a twf character use the off-hand attack as part of the attack action so it frees up their bonus action and all other rules still apply
so if the char takes twf style its essentially 2d6+10 compared to gwf being 2d6+15(if GWM is proc'd with a great sword)
How about a revised version the Dungeon Coach and Treantmonk's Dual Wield fix to allow the character to choose if they want to focus their attacks on one target or split their focus on two different targets, at the cost of their bonus action. Please review and critique:
Two-Weapon Fighting would now be broken down into two fighting options, Dual Wielding and Two-Weapon Fighting.
-------
DUAL WIELDING (as per existing two-weapon fighting RAW)
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
-------
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can elect to attack the same target with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand as part of the same Attack action. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the off hand attack, unless that modifier is negative.
In the event of a spell/enchantment or other effect that adds extra damage to your attacks (Hunter’s Mark, Holy Weapon, Magic Weapon, etc.) you only apply the extra damage once per attack. For magical weapons, all bonuses and effects are added for both weapons to damage rolls, but only the best bonus is added for attack rolls (to preserve bounded accuracy).
-------
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING STLE
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
- You can use Two-Weapon Fighting and Dual Wielding even when the one handed melee weapon you are wielding in your primary hand is not light.
- You can use 2 one handed finesse melee weapons even if they lack the light property.
- If Dual Wielding, add your ability modifier to the damage of the off hand attack.
-------
TWO-WEAPON-MASTER FEAT (replaces Dual Wielder)
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
- You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
- You can use Two-Weapon Fighting and Dual Wielding with any one handed melee weapons
-------
General Rule Change: If you have the Two Weapon Fighting style or Two Weapon Master feat, any time you use your free interaction to draw or stow one weapon, you can also draw or stow a second weapon.
This fix should accomplish several things:
- It does not add a bunch of additional attack rolls to bog down combat rounds. Attacking with Two Weapon Fighting uses one roll for both attacks, attacking with Dual Wielding allows at most one additional attack roll.
- It enables dual wielding to be consistent with the damage output from two handed weapons.
- It removes the free action economy issue of drawing/stowing two weapons if a character specializes in dual wielding (via feat or fighting style).
- It removes the requirement for a character to sacrifice their bonus action to utilize dual wielding, thus opening a plethora of options for fighting/spells/beast companions/etc.
- If you select the two weapon fighting style, you can effectively use two one handed melee finesse weapons or a single one handed melee weapon and a light weapon in your off hand.
- If you choose the Two-Weapon Master feat, you can use any one handed melee weapon in either hand, and gain a small AC buff.
- Regardless of whether you select the fighting style or feat, there is a marked increase in your capabilities over the standard two weapon fighting rules.
- Choosing both the fighting style and feat has desirable synergy and utility.
Thoughts?
Video looks good to me, mostly watch on iPhone so detecting the difference would be hard to see probably.
Yes, in a world without Feats.
I always like to know what the optimized best dpr could be, and then make suttle changes for character choice. So that it's not THE BEST, but still great. And help solidify the theme of your character. Like the shadowblade bladesinger. Work that spell into the characters storyline and how they call it forth kind of like a pact weapon. Its pretty cool.
Question. Booming blade requires you have a weapon worth 1sp for the material component. Do you have to make the attack with said weapon? I mean I totally have a dagger dude. Let me cast booming blade with my shadow blade
yep, all my Bladedancers make a big deal about the Shadowblade spell in game... it's usually somehow woven into their backstory :). Ah... the old "can I BB with my SB?" debate! :) Check out my first "Slidin' Into my DMs" episode for a nice little convo about that one! Short answer: rules as written I don't think so, but check with your DM!
Step 1: Worship the best god (Eilistraee). Step 2: Call it a moon blade. Step 3: PROFIT
Imagine having to find a really good magical weapon for your offhand as well... Wow. No thanks! :D
Not sure if it is fair to include bladesingers bladesong in the damage, since that would be a limited ressources in similar style to the action surge, I know it last the whole combat compared to once per combat, but still...
hey do you have any builds with firearms i have not seen any in your play list. I've been wanting to play a warhammer 40k ogryn type of barbarian who uses a gun until it runs out of ammo then swing it like a maul like a Ripper Gun in the 40k universe i would like to know whats the best way to use the burst fire feature on automatic rifles in game and are there any spells could buff the weapon
Thanks! Great info for my pally build. Do you recommend dueling or 2handed GWM for max expected dmg per round?
I’m running a conquest pally so I don’t get a class feature to reliably bump hit chance like the vengeance pally.
I accept the dueling is probably more reliable, but I don’t know if the dmg potential from gwm catches up.
Thanks in advance ^
No problem! The 2 handed route will definitely net better damage per round on average, especially with the PAM and GWM feats (and GW fighting style helps too!). Without advantage, the numbers get closer at higher enemy AC, but especially at low to mid enemy AC it's not really close :).
@@DnDDeepDive That's about what I expected. Thank you!
I jus thought, you could go eldritch knight 7, and bladesinger 13. then you could attack as a bonus action. and you get the nova still as well, and you don't need to duel wield which means you can get the dueling style to add a touch more damage as well XD
Losing out on the strongest wizard spells losing song of victory, unlimited castings of shield and mirror image via spell mastery just so you can bonus attack cantrip and action surge per short rest? 😂 That is by far much weaker than a standard singer.
What about an Eldritch Knight who can cast Hex on the opponent for the extra 1d6 necrotic damage per hit? Hiw does that affect the equations? (I looked this video up because of the video with Nerdarchist Dave.)
What about the new spirit shroud spell? Also probably a bladesinger, but makes all dual wielded weapons 2d8, for every attack (in the event your DM isn't letting you cast GFB/BB with shadow blade or relegating it to your offhand) Admittedly adds a d8 to every attack so might be a wash with polearm master, but still worth mentioning. Melee cleric with dip into ranger hunter to get 4 attacks a round? This build wouldn't come online fully till level 10 I guess but not terrible and at 13 you get access to 5th level slots to start bumping your damage again
I love Spirit Shroud. The reality, though, is that thanks to PAM, there's no way to give a TWF *more* attacks per round than a Heavy Weapon Master can get, so yes, buffing one would buff both equally in that regard, and thanks to GWM, it's very very difficult for a TWF to ever do more damage.
I like the Treantmonk Feat variants (well, I like the class variants too, actually), which potentially brings dual-wielding close to or surpassing great weapon fighting, in some cases. www.gmbinder.com/share/-M1INWuCodxU6ZbZknA_.
Basically it allows you to use your bonus action to get an off-hand attack for each attack you have (so 4 total at fighter5 and 6 total at fighter11). For a barbarian that gets his rage damage added on each hit, it suddenly becomes more attractive to be dual-wielding with that feat.
Sure, it's homebrew, but well thought out IMO
Spirit shroud is a good choice but the problem is that it's a paladin spell. Paladins are so incentivized to be gwm its not often gonna happen. Be a sword bard and steal it but sword bard can steal other stuff that's probably better. 5th level spirit shroud will make 9d8 per turn plus mods and magic weapon
Does the Revised Ranger +4 on all attacks get even close?
Mounted Dual Wielder Lance?
Would you consider throwing daggers with Sharpshooter as, say, a Battlemaster Fighter with Archery and Throwing weapon styles to be Two-Weapon fighting? This might be a bit more competitive
YUUUS always went with 2 different lightsabers instead of a double blade! gotta have that customization!
100%!
Another comment, do you have a build that optimized sneak attack? I feel like something that increases chances to hit/crit would be helpful.
Would Hexblade warlock be an option for a solid two weapon fighter?
Well lets be honest: The shadowblade exception does not really depend on two-weapon fighting to be great. As the Dungeon Dudes would say: A high tide floats all boats.
Right - it's just the only Two-Weapon fighting build I can think of that's competitive with Great Weapon Fighting (while, admittedly, it's *almost*, but not quite, as powerful just taking the Duelist Fighting style instead and foregoing your second weapon).
What would the numbers say for a Sorcerer that twin cast shadow blade. Because you can maintain concentration on both because of the twin spell meta magic
You can't twin Shdow Blade: it has a range of "Self".
question? could someone duel wielding lances with mounted combatant to out do great weapon master+ polearm master?
I know two handed weapons do more damage,but for the aesthetics i want to build a dual weilding barbarian
In my experience the main benefit for Two Weapon Fighting, is it allows you to gain an extra attack with a finesse weapon. This is good for low level Rogues, to fish for a hit on which to sneak attack. Ultimately if a rogue doesn't land their sneak attack on their turn, their DPR goes through the floor.
The only way Rogue competes with Fighter is if it doesn't multi-class. The number of sneak attack dice scales with level, so the more levels you spend on other classes the less impactful the sneak attack will be.
Shadow Blade: IIRC Shadow Blade is just 1 weapon, are you suggesting that we main hand the Shadow Blade and off hand something else? I guess our DM that is handing out Flametougne at level 3 could give us a Rapier for our off hand....
I think Bladesinger would beat out Hexblade in use of Shadow Blade simply because if they use one of their attack actions to cast Booming Blade they can get both the Shadow Blade AND the Booming Blade damage on that hit. However, I think that is a pretty optimized build for Two Weapon Fighting, and in the interest of objectivity it should be compared to Optimized PaM+GWM builds.
I think an optimized Paladin Warlock multi-class might still be able to compete with the Bladesinger... I think. I'll drop a level 20 build down below and you can tell me what you think.
This is a theoretical build that isn't super practical to level, but is just a theoretical build that maximizes the passive damage of a paladin / warlock combo.
Race: Elf (I took Drow for thematic reasons, and used RAW ability scores)
Ability Scores @lvl 20: 13, 14, 14, 10, 10, 20
Subclass distribution: Oathbreaker 8, Hexblade 12
Feats: Elven Accuracy, PaM, GWM
Damage Relevant Invocations: Improved Pact Weapon, Lifedrinker (level 12) :: I also take Devil's Sight, Eldritch Smite, and Relentless Hex but they aren't significant for damage calculation in a vacuum.
Concentration: Spirit Shroud (up cast to 5th level for +2 d8/ hit)
Attacks / Round: 2 regular, 1 bonus action PaM
Damage Breakdown: Assuming +1 weapon from Improved Pact Weapon
Attack 1: 1d10+ 2d8+ 6 (Proficiency) + 5 (charisma mod) +10 (GWM) +5 (Aura of Hate) +5 (Lifedrinker) +1 (Improved Pact Weapon) :: 1d10 (6) +2d8 (10) + 32 = 48 dmg on average.
Attack 2: same as attack 1.
Attack 3: uses 1d4 instead of 1d10, for an average of 45 dmg
Average DPR assuming every attack hits is about 141 dpr sustained.
By my calculations a basic level 20 fighter with the same feats should be able to sustain 137 dpr with a +1 weapon, should everything hit.
I realize that's not a massive difference in DPR, but the fighter has 2 more attacks / round, and the Padlock can smite on top of all 3 attacks if they need to. Additionally, the higher damage / hit is much more significant if you're consistently landing your attacks of opportunity when enemies enter your reach. But the relative impact of that damage is difficult to quantify.
Have you considered builds with a paladin dip for the extra smite?
Always a nice add - I tend to shy away from stuff that would be considered more "nova" or "burst" but not really "sustainable," but everyone loves a good smite now and then :P. It's just hard to crunch numbers unless you're comparing to other "what can this build do when using their limited resources?" builds, though I have done one focused on that - episode 5, that makes some nice use of smites :).
@@DnDDeepDive I agree with you but the 3rd smite adds to the 2 weapon allure. I'm not giving up my bladesinger. Lol
@@DnDDeepDive I mean an 11 level paladin dip is super sustainable i don't know what you are talking about
19:10 Wouldn't the great weapon fighter barbarian have the advantage on higher armor classes also, since they can reckless attack always for advantage and there's nothing that's giving the shadow blade two-weapon fighting a bonus to attack rolls? *And the shadow blade can get advantage only in dim or dark light compared to always with reckless attack.
What about for the hexblade warlock? Can a Shadow blade in one hand and your Pact weapon in the other, compete with with your Polelock build, assuming you're in dim light or darkness?
wellll... I think the problem with Shadow Blade for Hexblades is that, RAW, the Shadow Blade can't qualify for your Pact of the Blade stuff... "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest." With Shadow Blade only lasting 1 minute, I don't think you could complete the ritual. If you had a DM who was willing to let it be your Pact Weapon, then it might come close.... losing the +10 from GWM would hurt but an upscaled Shadow Blade would eventually make up for it...
@@DnDDeepDive yeah, i agree the shadow blade can't be your Pact Weapon, but I was curious if an up casted Shadow Blade in one hand and your Pact weapon in the other stood any chance against the benefits of GWM and Polearm Master of the Hexblade?
@@kcin3288 ah, I see. Hm... would have to crunch the numbers. My guess is that you'd likely be better off with the +10 to damage on every attack until high enemy AC when the -5 to hit really starts to hurt, but if we're always fighting with darkness/devil's sight, and especially if we have Elven Accuracy, it's probably *very* high enemy AC... especially after level 12 when we'd be adding double our Charisma bonus to each attack with our pact weapon... of course, the *real* problem is that you can only use your Charisma bonus to hit and damage on your Hex Warrior/Pact Weapon, so you'd be using Str or Dex for the Shadow Blade, meaning you'd likely be very M.A.D.
A lot of this is based on the AC of the target. A character using GWM and Reckless attack slaughters versus low AC and is not nearly as good as you demonstrated. I actually think that Dual-wielders should have their own Feat comparable to GWM called Dual Weapon Master. This would grant an additional +1 AC over Dual-Wielder, grant one additional Attack when they take the Attack Action, as well as alowing them to ready or stow three weapons in a round (so throwing characters get something too).
How would you homebrew to balance the scales a little. Not necessarily completely as twf has the ac boost but much closer they each tier of play?
The easy route would be to give Dual-Wielder a comparable buff: if not -5, +10 then -4 +8 etc. But that would be boring :). I think I'd rather see something like an extra attack on the BA, but I'm sure that would present balancing issues of its own :).
can a bladesinguer cast somatic spell if he using with 2 weapons? beacause in your buil you take resilent and no warcaster, sorry for the bad english
technically no, though at our table you can drop a weapon to cast a spell and pick it back up as a free action on your next turn - your results may vary so check with your DM!
It's still not GWM+Polearm good, but let's not forget Rangers dual-wielding with Hunter's Mark (possibly with Rogue levels).
I'm kinda new to D&D so ignore me 😅
In my head dual wielders get more attacks and can spread their damage across a few enemies more than two handed weapons. Then the dual wielder also gets a bonus AC.
Two handed weapon users do more damage in general but dont have the versatility of of the more attacks and the bonus AC.
What do ye think of this.
So just for pedantry at level 2, since your Dual wielder is behind by 1-2 damage, wouldn't a Ranger with Piercer, TWF fighting style, and Hunter's Mark bridge that gap (trading the 1d6 sneak attack once per turn for a +1d6 on each hit from HM)? You lose your bonus action first round to set up, but you assumed Rage for the PAM Barb at 2 so I think that should balance out.
Sounds about right - time for a level 2 one-shot!
What do you think is needed to put them on equal footing?
I'd say a tweak to the Dual Wielder feat that maybe would grant a second off-hand weapon attack after level 5 might be a good place to start. Or perhaps allowing the player to add their proficiency bonus to attacks made while Two-Weapon Fighting?
@@DnDDeepDive Well, I was thinking that since two handed does more damage, we should be more accurate, which two weapon fighting is. I honestly think that the bonus action should grant as many attacks as weapon attacks that you have. For instance, a fighter with 4 attacks would be something like 8d6+60 and have like a plus 7 or 8 to hit. The same fighter two-weapon fighting, because it doubles your attacks would be 8d6+40, but would have like a plus 12-13 to hit. Would that be enough to offset it. I'm not good with the dnd math stuff lol.
KOTOR!!!
Do you have Numbers for bloodhunter with dualwield?
Not currently, but plan on doing a BH soon...
Hexblood / elf BladeSinger? now whit hex spells.
What do you think?
Nice at early levels, but once you can get third level spells, your concentration options are better (3d8 shadow blade for 3rd level spells, Summon Fey for 4th level spells, Animate Objects for 5th+)
@@DnDDeepDive have you have at loot at Stronghold & Followers? i know its 3party, but its super cool to have a chanse to build a fort (and you get som super cool power)
@@staalhugger4927 I haven’t - will have to check it out!
I would be interested in a video about optimizing something besides damage, but I am probably going to be voted down.
He already has videos about builds optimizing tankiness and healing ability. I'm sure he'll also have builds optimizing other things in the future.
@@CitizenCain1 I see the one about tanking. What is the title of the one about healing?
@@alanschaub147 So far it's admittedly a small list - Beat Totem Barbarian, Tankadin, and Support Bard are the extent of the non-damage focused builds thus far :P. I'm planning on doing another tank for next week though!
@@DnDDeepDive Take a look at a Dao Genie Warlock for battlefield control.
You no longer need to multiclass into Druid to gain Spike Growth.
Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast + Grasp of Hadar will pull enemies back and forth across that area of effect and shred them.
There are also great feats like Telekinetic and Crusher to bump them back into the area where you want them. A Dao patron adds bludgeoning damage even with Eldritch Blast, so Crusher can be used at range.
I think a Tomelock is best to get access to cantrips like Shillelagh, Mold Earth, and Minor Illusion.
Warcaster might be worthwhile later to maintain concentration on spells like Spike Growth, as well as to dual wield clubs. I you use Shillelagh + Booming Blade on your main hand club and then an offhand club attack, then that gives two opportunists to hit and move opponents with Crusher.
It all seems pretty good. At 14th level you get Limited Wish. Beat that! 💫
@@alanschaub147 sounds juicy...
Resolution is great. Focal distance could probably be improved. You want your face to be sharp and the background a bit less. You look great, but could benefit from gaining some depth from the background.
I see a diploma from the University of Utah. Now we can stalk him! 😁
@@alanschaub147 lol
Thanks for the feedback - I'll have to play with the focus settings next...