One of the first thing I learned when I went in to be a professional diver was; never ever feel ashamed of aborting a dive! It's not a failure, it's being responsible and making the right call.
Dude, you’re avatar/photo is BRILLIANT! I kept thinking I had a hair on my screen and was like, why the hell is this hair scrolling and not wiping off! I was seriously bugging out for a split second. Funny!
Theres a climber named David Shaw who died on Everest. It's eerie to hear of a diver named David Shaw dying on the other end of the spectrum. As above so below.
@@dianebays5484 they probably had summit fever. Edmund Hillary The first ever to summit Everest had some things to say about them for not helping a fellow human being. If they had the strength.
Me: not a diver at all. _Binge watched Mr Ballen videos which has me now terrified of scuba diving especially in caves._ RUclips: here's more diving tragedies. Also me: let me binge watch all these *dive talk* videos as they are super interesting and informative.
Oh my goodness! That's exactly how I got here! Should be washing dishes but there are so many super interesting posts just now. (One of my fav films is Sanctum but not sure if it's a true story or not. Any info?)
Let the dead rest were they lie. Especially at that depth. This is exactly why they leave people on Everest. Life is for the living and that shouldn’t include a death sentence for attempting to retrieve another body at that depth or in the case of Everest at that height. They all died doing what they loved to do so respect that and let them lie in piece
I once got in an argument with some people saying they should send teams to collect bodies on Everest. Which I said was a terrible idea. People die just trying to walk up it. What do you think would happen to rescue teams engaging in dangerous, complex tasks, and hard labor?
@@conservovirtus5796 it’s like a DNR Do Not Resuscitate order. When you climb high or dive deep there should be a limit to where there is no body retrieval.
@@1986BBG. I agree. People get apoxia just trying to walk up it. What do you think is going to happen to people trying to rappel down cliffs, carry bodies, etc. You would think that would be obvious...
@@conservovirtus5796 yeah but people try to push the limit. A firefighter would not go into a five alarm fire if death outweighed the actual chance of success. Life is for the living, people at least know where the loved ones died and are in eternal sleep so they need to have comfort in knowing that and never push others to try a body retrieval attempt.
Ever since hearing about this I have always wondered why someone would risk their life trying to recover a body. I hope no one ever risks their life trying to recover my body.
I believe that some of the earliest human rituals we know about have to do with care of bodies. The idea that the bodies of the dead matter seems to be something very very deep in human culture. I agree it doesn't really make sense, but it seems to be a pretty universal impulse that we see in many different setting/sports. I guess it must have had some adaptive benefit for humans as a species, even if it was not beneficial for individuals, to go back so far and last so long. It is a fascinating question.
@@tflbo As I think about what you say, I realize my post likely showed some inconsideration for the loss of a loved one, likely from my own personal issues. Some of the rituals around the dead are very personal and don't logically make sense without considering the emotional/psychological needs of humans. We are deeply relational creatures and also very logical creatures, a fascinating and frustrating blend of emotions and cognitions. It is a tragedy to dismiss the ritual and emotional needs around a death and I certainly don't mean to do so. My post was about my perspective, coming from my experiences, thoughts, and issues. From my limited perspective I don't see the need to retrieve a body and I feel angry (protective?) about someone losing their life in an attempt to do so. Thank you for sharing Tara. It has helped me to think more deeply about this issue.
I highly recommend watching the documentary "Dave Not Coming Back". It is very well done and tells you the whole story. This wasn't a rushed dive after the record dive. This was an extremely well planned dive that just didn't end well. In fact, a second diver Don Shirley, also almost died on this dive.
@@cameronmahaffey3798 from what I read the second diver barely made it back to the surface and was very sick with a lot of issues after he came out of the water so I think that’s what they by the second diver almost died. I believe the second diver is actually the man narrating the video
Not knowing anything about diving, it sounds to me that extremely well planned dives shouldn't "just not end well". Or is this level of risk expected in the diving world?
I have been on a Dive Talk marathon and something struck me today. The fact that you guys react to these tragic life loss dives and share so much information is doing a serious service to the Diving community. The things that you guys are commenting on is going to save lives. You two are very very kind to do this and i have so much respect for you both.
Got a family friend who's a cave diver and used to work in Hawaii but now works at the NYC Aquarium. I'm fine with just doing the doggy paddle but love to learn about anything I don't know about. Love you guys, you never fail to entertain!
I didn't realize this would send as a comment I thought it would be some private message or something so this is possibly the WORST video I could have picked in my binge watching to do this I'm so sorry!
David's Body floated up after he died the bag with Deon's body was entangled and was recovered as well. He achieved his mission at the cost of his life. It was doomed from the beginning.
Feel terrible for the parents of the first guy. Loose your son and then have to see this happen because they are trying to recover his body. Horrific all around
The craziest part is that after the body was recovered...the parents cremated the bones and sent the ashes right back down into the same cave. Still smh over that bit
Laying it out in such simple terms as “things are happening 31 times faster than at the surface” really drives home how insanely dangerous those depths are. I have no dive experience, but we can all appreciate the impossible difficulty of the simplest of tasks under those circumstances. Even without all the anxiety and exertion.
Love the channel but I need to correct you on a couple mistakes Woody. First of all Dave discovered Deon Dryers body on October 28, 2004, the day he made his record setting dive. It was not until January 8th 2005 that the recovery dive took place. He had an entire team of people helping including his friend Don Shirley who nearly lost his life also. After 10 years the body was no longer bloated...it had turned into corpse wax or 'Adipocere' where the body fat becomes a soapy type of wax. This is what caused the body to float which in turn caused many problems which contributed to Dave's entanglement which ultimately cost him his life in addition to the carbon dioxide buildup in his re-breather.
Thank you. I really do need to do a follow up as I simply reacted without tainting myself to reviewing any data or facts prior to watching. I need to do that and appreciate your comment very much!
I am really not sure about the part of buildup inside the re-breather. It surly doesn't sound like the device is the issue, except if you count the back mounted counter-lung being responsible for negative static lung load, resistance in the flow coming from pure engineering limits, and so on. It sounds more like he was reaching the flow peak/plateau for that gas density he was at. To put it short - at that depth, you cannot afford to "work very hard" cus you won't be able to exhale the Co2. The buildup was inside him, not inside the device.
he had no one helping him past the cave roof below! the teams were only there to take the body off him at 3 different stages while he decompressed! He had no experience in body retrieval and thinking the body was a skeleton and not going to turn to dust when he touched it was a fatal error in judgment ! I run a forensics page and study the body farm on decomposition of a body in all sorts of situations. Bodies also fall apart and its a well known fact the hands and feet and heads also fall off during decomp. 10 years under the water this body would be anything but solid with just bones left on what appeared to be flesh. a lot of that silt was the body disintegrating when it was disturbed. If not the the oxygen tanks and dive suite it would have floated up to the surface long ago. The only thing keeping this body together was the dive suit. Thats y it was moving around as it was disintegrating when Dave tried to get it in the body bag. This is y ppl study and research decomposition of bodies and also retrieval. Being a good diver is one thing... being an expert on body retrieval is a completely different expertise! It also looked like Dave freaked out upon discovering this observation as well. hence another reason for the heavy breathing.
@@DIVETALK FYI, there was actually a documentary about this dive that came out in 2020 (I think) called "Dave Not Coming Back." Not a great doc, but at least gives a lot more info about the events
As a psd who's recovered a lot of bodies, he shouldn't of worried about bagging until a deco or had family and cameras stage somewhere outside dive site, and do what you can and come back. There is no time limit for a body, it's not a rescue it's a recovery.
I haven’t double checked but from what I recall the body had been there for a while and I think the body bag was more for trying to ensure everything stayed in one piece rather than for obscuring it from view, that was a secondary consideration.
If i were the kid's parents, I would have insisted he not try to make the recovery. I wouldn't want his life on my hands. The cave was as good a burial spot as any for their son.
People act all upset over climbers using hiking markers like greenboots, but its faux outrage thats completely misplaced. Are they going to go and recover those bodies? I don't think so. What's disrespectful about leaving them where they fell? It serves as a warning and a catalyst for introspection for all who pass by. I beleive that marking their graves with a monument of some kind and learning a lesson from their deaths is the best way to honor them
Wish he had watched a better version of this. Because there’s more to the story, even one of his dive partners had problems… started suffering from severe vertigo and started vomiting underwater. Took him several weeks to recover.
I know this is a 2yr old comment but the thought of having vertigo while diving is an experience I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. I’ve only experienced vertigo once and it was horrible, and that’s when I’m still on the surface relaxing my body!
900 ft deep to recover an already deceased diver? I know nothing about diving, but that sounds an awful lot like the Everest no help line of altitude. All you can do is fend for yourself , or you wont make it .
That deceased diver was there 10 years. Dave went for the record dive and he accidentally found him down there. Then he decided to make an action for retreiving,but not just 1 day,or the next day after his 1st dive but months after preparing,planning and with the team of 12 divers. But on the bottom he was alone. You have the whole documentary on youtube about it.
@@Coach_Vedo : oh wow, they planned for months? That makes some of the things that happened even weirder then: Shaw going to the bottom alone, Shaw rushing it on a breathing apparatus where too much exertion can create toxic CO2 levels, and the second-to-last guy in the helpline going down further to check on him after more than the planned time passed instead of abandoning the plan which ended up causing him serious medical problems and nearly killing him as well.
There were team members along the ascent line (they went down after him). But I have to agree that it made no sense to attempt the most dangerous part all alone. However, Dave himself explained it to the team by saying “better to have one person dead than two or three.” He felt that if he got into trouble at that depth, no one could save him anyway.
He was probably right, and that would be my main criticism of this video. Woody emphasizes that a team is needed because he wants to illustrate the danger, but the more accurate and responsible thing would be to say “don’t even do this, leave the body alone.” I understand that he was trying to “not be mean” about Dave Shaw’s purpose in diving… and in any case, the lesson of not even trying this should resound to anyone thinking about it in the future, from the facts themselves.
Diving as a team is nearly impossible, at that depth, little people had the experience, and diving to world record depth the second time along with others may cause everyone to die if one had a problem
I've never gone diving (and problably will never go). I always assumed that all you had to do was grab some tanks full of oxygen (kind of like filing an helium balloon), and you were good to go. Yet I realise each dive is so technical, and so many parameters have to be taken into account, this is insane.
This is a very difficult example of technical diving. Open water diving is very safe if you know what youre doing and is very fun and relaxing. You should give it a go.
You don't use oxygen, you would generally just use compressed atmospheric air. And for basic open water above 65 feet, it really is pretty much that simple. If you've got any interest at all, you can do a "discover scuba" for a very low cost, where an instructor will give you a quick intro and let you try it, and see if it's something you're interested in pursuing. The difference between this type of technical diving and normal open-water diving is extreme. The only similarity is that they both happen in water. It's like the difference between riding on a commercial airliner, and piloting a rocket to space.
the first dive, months earlier, dave explored the cave floor and discovered the body (rather than instantly ascending.) lots of preparation went into the dive, actually.
Yeah, it's bothering me seeing all these stupid comments bagging on Shaw, if you don't know the story, shut up. I love Woody and the channel and i understand it's a first reaction, but either make it clear that you don't know what happened or research it after; because people watching who don't know are taking their word as gospel.
@@subblonde3101 yup, Dave was one of the greatest Closed circuit divers of all time. He still holds the record for depth on a rebreather. Ignorant people gonna ignorant i guess.
@@jonathanbradley4896 what good is a record if you die doing it again? It just shows how it was reckless in the first place. You can tell yourself he planned it perfectly and got struck by lightning. Get real. There's a reason why this failed spectacularly.
@@lightfeather9953 I agree the plan was not exactly what I would have gone for considering the amount of silt kicked up by trying to wrestle the body off the bottom. Attaching a lift bag first to say, the first stage regulator or a D ring on Deon's BCD and adding a small amount of air would have likely made lifting the body off the bottom much less difficult. I think Dave went for the body bag approach because he was worried about the body coming apart but that didn't seem to be the case. He made a poor judgement call that cost him his life, I personally don't think that makes him any less of a diving legend but to each their own.
@Alex Rexroat ahh. I understand that. I'd just watched something about commercial sat divers. I think it would have taken multiple trip for each task at that depth. Or have divers rotate down there. But we are all Monday quarterbacking at this point because it was so sad.
@@joysanders59 now i dont know exactly.. but i think the members of his team would be 'hovering' at certain depths with different breathing equipment than shaw used.. Just the typical oxygen tank which allows for prolonged stay at depth but also more risk for 'the bends' and the need to go slowly up and down.. what you hear typically of divers.. dont go to quickly or you blood starts to boil thing.. and david shaw himself was using other technology, the rebreather thing that allowed for a quick dash to the bottom and quick up ...from the docu i seen.. very specialist stuff that he tweaked and experimented with himself. Literally cutting edge... But anyway, what i gathered from it David shaw was really the only one who could dive that deep. the others were just for support along the way to guide the body up. They couldve helped him if he got up from the bottom to the first diver, but they couldnt go get him.
I remember first reading this story, broke my heart. He didn't have to go down there, he just really wanted to bring those parents some closure by bringing their sons body back, such a hero and good man.
Greetings from Kentucky. I am NOT a scuba/cave diver at all. Being underwater terrifies me, but for some reason, the mechanics of it is just fascinating. I was under the impression that when a diver uses "mixes" of gases, the decompression time is less, but I guess not. I'm so sorry for Mr. Shaw's family. Thank you, Mr. Alpern, for a very interesting, informative video. Keep up the good work and above all - be safe!!
I really hope you and Gus plan on reacting to Dave Not Coming Back! Such an incredible movie and provides a lot of context to this video and this story. The rescue effort of Don Shirley, one of Dave's support divers and the narrator on this video, is harrowing and incredible. Dive-reenactments in the movie are done on-location in Bushman's Hole, and Don Shirley participated in the re-enactment. Couple notes on the video without spoiling any of the diving components of the movie: - Dave found Deon's body four months before his death, not the day before. In addition, he had a team of 7 or 8 support divers who had planned to relay Deon's body in the bag to the surface. Nobody except Don had gone to the bottom of the cave with Dave - they had planned a staged ascent. - Dave believed the body was skeletonized after having been stuck 900ft underwater for over a decade, hence why the plan was to put it in a body bag and bring it to the surface. It is likely that Dave did not expect Deon's body to begin floating once he reached the body at the bottom. It seems to me that the mistake that cost him his life was not bailing on the dive once he noticed the body was dislodged and floating - after some time, it may have floated to the roof of the cave on its own. - Dave was used to putting his light around his neck while he worked underwater. However, this was also the first time he had dove with a camera on his head. He was unable to place his light in the usual position because the camera was in the way, so he left the light floating next to him instead. This is how he got his light tangled with the body. - Don suffered from The Bends after his rescue and was unable to walk for several weeks following this dive. Nonetheless, he recorded this narration about five days after Dave's death because he knew South African news had gained access to the video, and wished to avoid having Dave's last breath aired on national television.
I’m actually surprised that you didn’t mention the OTHER diver that also nearly got himself killed! He was the first one Dave was supposed to meet up with and he actually went against the plan and dove down farther to check on him and he noticed Dave’s light was no longer moving and something had obviously gone wrong. One of his gauges or something ended up completely failing or the gauge blew or something along those lines and he was literally vomiting underwater from the effects and like I said he nearly lost his life trying to save Dave Shaw.
Yes I thought the same thing having seen the original footage and interview with that guy. The video showed and sounded an audible loud click when the glass in his dive computer cracked under the pressure. I’m not a diver but Incredible the amount of composure to take 10-12 hours to come back up while vomiting underwater etc. The rest of the crew worked extremely hard to save him.
What I think you're missing from this, and what Woody is reacting to, is that Dave was the only member of the team dealing with the body. As Woody pointed out, another diver on the floor with Dave could have helped get Dave free from the line. She the other team members have been mentioned, eh, maybe. Either way, his reaction concerning the lack of assistance on the bottom (which was Dave's choice), is what was being reacted too. Not the number of safety divers on the line who were unequipped to provide assistance on the bottom.
@@foddersfollies7494 I wasn’t saying that at all? I didn’t dispute what he was reacting to nor did I dispute what he said or the facts of the dive (dave being at the bottom alone to deal with the body, etc, etc.) I just honestly expected him to mention it, seeing as another second diver also nearly got killed just for trying to help Dave…which goes along with what he was saying about how he should have already had a buddy with him at depth actually…and almost cost two lives instead of just his own because of it. Also, I just assumed Woody knew about it and would probably mention it at some point in the video. I wasn’t “missing” anything just surprised and wondering if maybe Woody didn’t know about the stuff I had mentioned
The parents should NOT have been there. They were at the surface ready to freak out when seeing the body so they had to bag him underwater which caused him to get tangled and sadly pass away. Bagging him shouldn’t have even been a consideration at this ridiculous depth. My heart goes out to all families and divers involved. Heart breaking. Also: woody is my favourite ever :)
The reason they bagged the body where they found it was because when he moved it bones were falling out of the exposure suit he was still wearing. As it was the skull was lost, and is still down there
Actually the parents arrived after shaw had already started the dive because they didn't want to add stress. He had no idea they were there. The body bag was needed because the body was "falling apart" and couldn't be lifted to the surface in one piece.
@@imcalledemilie2380 you’re not saying putting the body in a bag was the right idea though right? Because my point is they shouldn’t have tried something like that and it is what killed the poor man. Without getting the body in the bag he still got the body to the surface although post mortem.
@@D4veJap4n The body was in the bag though. You even see Shaw zip the bag up and over the bodies face. The body had been down there for years and was literally falling apart when Shaw went down the first time. So yes the bag was needed.
This could’ve been successful if he had aborted the dive as soon as he saw that the body was positively buoyant, which is not what he had expected and therefore planned for. At this kind of depth you obviously can’t change the plan. Like as an airline pilot: when you don’t understand something, or something doesn’t go as planned, you must go back to the basics. In this case, abort the dive and rethink it later.But it is easier said than done, and maybe he felt some pressure to succeed right away also.
@@johnwinkler5361 I agree. I think there had to be a lot of pressure on him. Whether from the family he knew would be waiting upside or pressure he was putting on himself. He was trying so hard to make it happen and its just really sad. He seemed like a good guy.
I love these perspectives. To someone with little to no knowledge of cave diving, my only exposure to these stories are from the perspectives of people reporting from an outside perspective. Hearing this from experienced divers is really interesting. Thanks
Wow, these lectures are mind blowing and your final thoughts should be written in stone at every dive site. As an amateur diver I can't emphasize enough the value of this information as well as understanding the science behind these complex dives. Thank you for providing your insight and knowledge. You may have inadvertently saved lives with this video.
So sorry for your loss. I have watched everything you can at least a half a dozen times about Dave shaw. Show much respect for him to try and help out that family to bring up their son. I am not an expert but I do agree if he had someone at the bottom with him to help him get the body in the Bag things might not of happened the way they did. But this guy needs to realize it was not the next day and he was not trying to get another record. Rest in peace Dave shaw.
Idk if you watched the whole thing but he did succeed in bringing up the body. He tied a line to the body and either tied it to himself or was tangled. When the team went to pull their equipment out of the cave, both bodies were attached to the line. He would have had at least 1 other diver with him at the bottom.
@@matydrum The divers returned to get their equipment and when they pulled up there stuff from down below the water they found out both bodies were entangled in the line that had all the tanks and the rest of their things.
there was no one else with him at the bottom past the cave roof! he was completely alone doing this body retrieval. the teams were placed further up get it right! 420GLADIATOR There was no other diver with him !!!
how does such an ignorant comment get so many likes, there was no one at the bottom with him, his partner Shirley descended to meet Dave at 200m to take the body, but saw no sign of Dave coming up. He went down to 250m and his glass on his computer cracked, and he had to ascend again. He saw Dave's light motionless on the bottom and knew he was dead.
As you know, Woody, I am not a diver. I am an 81 year-old grandmother who has never even thought of becoming a diver of any kind. However, I thoroughly enjoy.DIVE TALK, and deeply appreciate that your whole goal is to make your sport safer and more enjoyable for everyone. diving alone is a great big no-no. It makes no sense, and is a foolish thing to do. They knew better, and yet he left his self-confidence, and eagerness to perhaps set another record, all the wild doing something really good and meaningful, and he paid for it with his life. his death was so preventable.. Thank you for bringing this video to us, and for adding your own well thought out reaction.❤
Sure Woody he didn’t have all the facts that we have now, but it is still so valuable to hear him give insight even on hypothetical situations. Thank you, Woody. You are so respectful. You’re so smart and we all enjoy getting to sit down and watch your commentation.
I'm not a diver in anyway, I went Army instead of Navy but, it takes real nerve and intelligence to deal with the stress your putting your body and mind through doing cave diving, hats off to you and your colleagues.
I’m not a diver, but I’m pretty sure there was a dive team and the whole thing was filmed for a documentary. Dreyers parents were present. They nearly lost a 2nd diver when he got the bends on the ascent, he owns a dive school in the area. Forgive my ignorance if I’ve mixed this up with another incident.
This is actually not the full recording of David Shaw, it is containing cuts, the obvious narration, and the end is missing. At the end you can actually hear the so-called coughing exhalations. He was pushing the button to feed more oxygen too, realizing he has a problem, but his body was physically unable to exhale the C02 due to multiple factors, but in short, it's called dynamic airway compression. You can see comments on this in videos like DAN's video named "respiratory failure in technical diving". At about minute 31 you will hear actual exhalations. NOTE: it's rather graphic in nature, discretion advised. Cheers guys, love the videos. Keep it up.
the goodman handle on the dropped torch entangled in the cave line. Dave was dragging a body behind him at 270m . 28 bar(atmispheres) co2 caught up with him. was not hypoxia. machine was delivering 1.1 ppo2.
Great channel!!!👍 I've been obsessed lately with trying to mentally work out my claustrophobic fears by watching a lot of cave exploration and dive videos. This channel is amazing because it not only critiques these divers but is super informative and educational. Never knew cave diving would be such an intriguing fascination of mine 🤔New fan and subscriber here 👊
I saw a video about this on another channel and I couldn't understand what went so wrong that the experienced diver died. It was so shocking. Thank you for your video explaining what can go wrong and how the diver got into trouble even though he was the best at this kind of diving.
When you started talking about how much deco he was gaining per minute, it made me curious. I opened up multideco and figured out the descent time and then I started adding a minute and measuring the delta between the previous and new run times with each additional minute. I used his hypoxic mixture and ignored cns o2 for simplicity sake and left it on a 1.2 po2 for the whole dive. It looks like each additional minute was earning him around 60 additional minutes of deco! Crazy stuff. Great video!
Holy CRAP! Thank you for doing it! I was quite curious myself after he mentioned it. That’s just crazy to even think about, I couldn’t even imagine the pressure you’re under as well just knowing how much an extra minute can matter.
I'm sure Don shirley was in the water for almost 12 hours after the dive to deco, and he wasn't even on the bottom for any amount of time he only was supposed to be down at the last gas stage but went below his depth to see if Dave was ok, saw his light wasn't moving, and sent a message to the surface to let them know Dave wasn't coming home!
this guy keeps suggesting that he should have help down there with the body, but this was already a world record depth. he can't just bring some guys along because he is literally the only person on the planet who thinks he's capable of pulling it off. there was never a chance of having a team down there to assist at 900 ft or whatever it was
I had the insight to see the follow up video which clarified a lot BUT I just wanted to say how well Woody explains things and the great job he did with his input ESPECIALLY for a non-diver like me. I've learned a lot just watching these "Dive Talk" videos AND as much as I like Gus as well - great job Woody. Keep up the good work. Kudos.
I REALLY wish you guys would make the dive screen video larger and yall smaller during the videos we can barely see what you're seeing if we are using a phone.... plssss
apparently be believed he was going to find a skeletal body, and was surprised by it being a chalky body with almost no decomp because of the extreme location. which makes little sense to expect a skeletal recovery but it’s what was reported by his people at the time.
well its the damn pathologists fault.....i dunno how they wouldnt know about the body not decomposing the same when there is no oxygen down there. Dave and the team did everything right.
Tragic. But informative. Despite how experienced he was and the thorough planning, one simple unexpected turn (the floating of the body) was enough to create a disaster. I guess the lesson here, if one simple thing goes against the plan, abort immediately. Did you guys react/analyze the case of Audrey Mestre? Another totally avoidable tragic.
I'm not a diver and barely understood a word this guy said, yet it was still fascinating. What a sad story though. I would hope that the families of people who die in extremely difficult to reach places would tell any potential rescuers "Please don't. It's not worth risking your life to recover a body." Yet it seems like so often they're willing to risk someone else's life just to get their loved one's body back. Sherpas have died while trying to retrieve bodies from Everest, having been offered lots of money by the dead person's family to do so. It is very sad.
You should watch 'Dave not coming back' ... he had a whole team and each were stationed at various points on the line and with stage tanks etc. They were set to pass the body from one to another for obvious reasons. The major mistakes IMO were: Dave thought the body was a skeleton beforehand but it wasn't, he made mistakes with his setup plan for lines attaching to Deon, he shouldn't have even put Deon in a bag, and I personally am of the belief that he needed to do more dives down there and really see what his real capacity was. And be more judicious with how long he could take down there. I don't think he trained long enough in that kind of depth. The current record holder spent four years training. I don't exactly know enough to speak to Dave's situation, but I know his initial dive to that depth was just one year prior. Anyways, may he rest in peace. His team was incredible. Love your content, btw!
He planned the dive for months prior to the actual dive, he found the body the year before, and he did have a full team, who were staged at different depths, it was only the bottom time he was alone.
Some bodies turn into a waxy substance called Adipocere and the reason why they float is because that substance is lighter than water, that is different from decomposing bodies which float due to the amount of gases generated by decomposition.
Point of clarification he was on a Mk15.5 with HammerHead electronics. Biomarine created the rebreather for the military. HammerHead is one of many vendors that sells replacement electronics for it. Hammerhead CCR is a completely different unit.
I have been on 2 open water tourist dives my entire life. My uncle however was a very skilled dive instructor in the Bahamas. He passed away we did once talk about this. His opinions which make sense was at the time, this was a world record dive. It was not a dive 2 or 3 guys could do. This was then and im sure today is still a dangerous dive. This was a dive that at 2005 technology was barely up on. Which is what made Shaw such a daredevil. Also probably proves the point while is heart was in the right place he had no business doing this. He knew the risk. Had more experience then anyone else. He obviously is a heroic spirit. Just a few points of this review even from a moron like me perspective are off the facts.
Good analysis. I know you weren't informed at the time of the video a d got some facts wrong but still good honest reactions which are still very very useful for anyone learning.
David did have a team according to this short documentary on youtube ruclips.net/video/OVZ_XAXUWlw/видео.html however, as stated, he didn't have anyone with him to help recover the body, he miscalculated the time needed based on a lucky or successful previous dive and almost cost the life of closest diver who got worried that Dave didn't come back on time, he got so sick himself that he started vomiting and had to be rescued.
I thought that because of the extreme depth, only Dave could have gone down to the bottom. I don't dive, but from what I read, Dave was only the 3rd person in the world to reach to floor. And he did have a team in the water and out. Don Shirley was the first, waiting at 700 some feet and like 6 or 7 others above him to relay the body. Instead they had to relay the news of him not coming back.
It is true that Dave was one of only 11 people to go down past 800 ft, but that’s starting at the Surface, commercial divers go down to thousands of feet but that takes special preparation. The bottom line is that they tried to do too much at that depth and it cost him his life.
Dave didn't do this dive the day before. He did the dive 6 months before and he wasn't coaxed into getting the body, it was his choice to go and get the body (he literally came up after the dive and said I want to get him). The reason he died was because he had a camera mounted on his helmet, something he wasn't used to. He again made that choice, he was the one who decided to document the dive to recover the body. He had consulted with scientists and other people in the community and the majority of the community made the assertion that the body would have been entirely decomposed and therefore negatively buoyant (they thought it would be a skeleton and that's why he was going to put it into the bag from there). That wasn't the case obviously. He had safety divers at every decom stop. The guy who is narrating this was his primary safety diver and he was sitting around 50ft above him. He went to the bottom when he noticed Dave wasn't moving and turned around when one piece of gear broke. He also almost died. Did his ego kill him, maybe. This wasn't about records though. Edit: Yeah obviously saw the follow up video. Glad you guys went out of your way to make the proper corrections. I'm not a diver but I remember watching the documentary and it was just brutal but their expertise and overall preparation was unparalleled. This was a classic death spiral, had they not wanted to film it, he might have not got caught on the body and might be alive today.
Me, being terrified of depth and caves and being submerged, and also being completely stoned, clickes on this video, expecting a horror story. Instead I’m now researching like a maniac to understand all the different gas mixtures and ratio numbers. I love it.
DAN South Africa had a great video about how doing too much work at depth overcame his rebreather and did a cascade that caused him to be unable to recover. Dr Simon Mitchell analyzed it.
@@mackhomie6 Pretty sure he didn’t. Prof Mitchell was actually analyzing Dave’s accident when he was discussing this. Early in the dive, Dave had regular breathing but as he started trying to open the body bag, his breathing became labored and he even had a cough. His work of breathing became hard and his rebreather couldn’t keep his ppo2 at the right level.
@@mikesbigadventures194 i had heard this theory before but i didn't know it had been substantiated. the way things were going, though, i wonder if he was doomed from all the other compounding factors already
@@mackhomie6 Mitchell did a pretty thorough job discussing it. But yeah, he said if he hadn’t been doing all the work he might have made it. Getting tangled is what pushed him over. Mitchell made a pretty compelling case.
@@mikesbigadventures194 to me it felt like the moment he fumbled and dropped the scissors was something of a turning point. i might be imagining it, but i would think the panic would hit pretty hard, being tangled, narced, struggling for air, and i don't know what psychological effect the corpse coming face to face with you has--if any--but I'd be making deals with the God I don't believe in right about then. that shit creeps me out, as if he were looking in a mirror at his own future. I thought about this for weeks after first seeing the footage from one of the documentaries. edit: didn't mean to contradict you, im sure youre right about what the final mishap was
I suspect he was narced and a goner very shortly after he reached the body. So much focus on the scissors with out using them is a worry. Also when he described the state he was in when he first found the body on the earlier dive I'm pretty stunned he thought he could recover a body with out joining it. From his own description it didn't sound doable.
That's really sad how fast things took a bad turn. Hopefully his story is able to save others' lives who would otherwise push themselves way too hard just for a new record or their pride.
I just wanted to say I just discovered you guys last week and have been watching your videos and wanted to say I know absolutely Dogass about diving but Dive talk is so damn interesting to me. I love it! Keep up the good work Woody & Gus !
Another engaging insight from Dive Talk. I watched the documentary film 'Dave not coming back' which was very interesting, not to mention tragic. I also learned that a few days before the attempt, Don Shirleys dive (wrist) computer had failed at depth. It couldn't take the pressure. They managed to contact the designer of the unit who talked them through repairing it. For me, that was the point at which the dive should have been aborted - if the equipment is not up to the task then it's time for a rethink. Both Dave and Don were extremely experienced divers, but having Dave alone at the bottom left no redundancy for circumstances unaccounted for. No matter how well you plan you just cannot legislate for the unknown. Don also ended up getting bent due to a tiny air bubble in his ear and could only manually hit his rebreather to keep himself alive. Tragic.
Just dropping by to say there's a New Video from Woody and Gus on this very topic that sheds a ton of light, corrections and updates on the whole thing. Do give it a watch 🙌🏻 These guys are gold 🤍
I love watching these right before bed so I can then try and sleep with my anxiety and claustrophobia through the roof! And I also learned that I will never go into a cave, ever!
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
One of the first thing I learned when I went in to be a professional diver was; never ever feel ashamed of aborting a dive! It's not a failure, it's being responsible and making the right call.
Great advice!
Absolutely. As with anything else in life!
Dude, you’re avatar/photo is BRILLIANT! I kept thinking I had a hair on my screen and was like, why the hell is this hair scrolling and not wiping off!
I was seriously bugging out for a split second.
Funny!
@@KMTSports21 Hahaha! Yeah sorry for that. It's kinda trollish but it makes people laugh so that's why I'm keeping it.
Great comment 👍
Theres a climber named David Shaw who died on Everest. It's eerie to hear of a diver named David Shaw dying on the other end of the spectrum. As above so below.
Chills.
Now I get an idea of naming my future son Jeff Bezos
Good movie
Yes! And he was in green boots cave, awake. Many people passed him by. There was nothing , I guess they could do.
@@dianebays5484 they probably had summit fever. Edmund Hillary The first ever to summit Everest had some things to say about them for not helping a fellow human being. If they had the strength.
Me: not a diver at all. _Binge watched Mr Ballen videos which has me now terrified of scuba diving especially in caves._
RUclips: here's more diving tragedies.
Also me: let me binge watch all these *dive talk* videos as they are super interesting and informative.
Amen!
@@DIVETALK still binging. 😁
@@smarti1144 another one will be live soon!
Why do people talk in scripts like this nowadays? It's wierd.
Oh my goodness! That's exactly how I got here! Should be washing dishes but there are so many super interesting posts just now. (One of my fav films is Sanctum but not sure if it's a true story or not. Any info?)
Let the dead rest were they lie. Especially at that depth. This is exactly why they leave people on Everest. Life is for the living and that shouldn’t include a death sentence for attempting to retrieve another body at that depth or in the case of Everest at that height. They all died doing what they loved to do so respect that and let them lie in piece
I once got in an argument with some people saying they should send teams to collect bodies on Everest. Which I said was a terrible idea. People die just trying to walk up it. What do you think would happen to rescue teams engaging in dangerous, complex tasks, and hard labor?
@@conservovirtus5796 it’s like a DNR Do Not Resuscitate order. When you climb high or dive deep there should be a limit to where there is no body retrieval.
@@1986BBG. I agree. People get apoxia just trying to walk up it. What do you think is going to happen to people trying to rappel down cliffs, carry bodies, etc. You would think that would be obvious...
@@conservovirtus5796 yeah but people try to push the limit. A firefighter would not go into a five alarm fire if death outweighed the actual chance of success. Life is for the living, people at least know where the loved ones died and are in eternal sleep so they need to have comfort in knowing that and never push others to try a body retrieval attempt.
@@1986BBG life after death
Ever since hearing about this I have always wondered why someone would risk their life trying to recover a body. I hope no one ever risks their life trying to recover my body.
I hope they never have to!!
Kinda throwing yourself into that situation saying that..........
The adventure and record setting was half of it
I believe that some of the earliest human rituals we know about have to do with care of bodies. The idea that the bodies of the dead matter seems to be something very very deep in human culture. I agree it doesn't really make sense, but it seems to be a pretty universal impulse that we see in many different setting/sports. I guess it must have had some adaptive benefit for humans as a species, even if it was not beneficial for individuals, to go back so far and last so long. It is a fascinating question.
@@tflbo As I think about what you say, I realize my post likely showed some inconsideration for the loss of a loved one, likely from my own personal issues. Some of the rituals around the dead are very personal and don't logically make sense without considering the emotional/psychological needs of humans. We are deeply relational creatures and also very logical creatures, a fascinating and frustrating blend of emotions and cognitions. It is a tragedy to dismiss the ritual and emotional needs around a death and I certainly don't mean to do so. My post was about my perspective, coming from my experiences, thoughts, and issues. From my limited perspective I don't see the need to retrieve a body and I feel angry (protective?) about someone losing their life in an attempt to do so. Thank you for sharing Tara. It has helped me to think more deeply about this issue.
I highly recommend watching the documentary "Dave Not Coming Back". It is very well done and tells you the whole story. This wasn't a rushed dive after the record dive. This was an extremely well planned dive that just didn't end well. In fact, a second diver Don Shirley, also almost died on this dive.
No he didn’t.
@@cameronmahaffey3798 from what I read the second diver barely made it back to the surface and was very sick with a lot of issues after he came out of the water so I think that’s what they by the second diver almost died. I believe the second diver is actually the man narrating the video
@@SamanthaD89 yes, you are right. He was narc’d really bad when he found dave.
Not knowing anything about diving, it sounds to me that extremely well planned dives shouldn't "just not end well". Or is this level of risk expected in the diving world?
@@xraw110x “nearly”... lol
I have been on a Dive Talk marathon and something struck me today. The fact that you guys react to these tragic life loss dives and share so much information is doing a serious service to the Diving community. The things that you guys are commenting on is going to save lives. You two are very very kind to do this and i have so much respect for you both.
Got a family friend who's a cave diver and used to work in Hawaii but now works at the NYC Aquarium. I'm fine with just doing the doggy paddle but love to learn about anything I don't know about. Love you guys, you never fail to entertain!
I didn't realize this would send as a comment I thought it would be some private message or something so this is possibly the WORST video I could have picked in my binge watching to do this I'm so sorry!
Hawaii, but* paddle, but*
comment. I* something, so* this. I'm*
Yeah. Lol. If it's not a live chat, then this is a comment, not a message.
@@thegriffin88It's perfectly alright of a message, I'd say.
David's Body floated up after he died the bag with Deon's body was entangled and was recovered as well. He achieved his mission at the cost of his life. It was doomed from the beginning.
This was so Bitter Sweet story & ending. Makes one wonder was it worth it? But he made a promise & I guess kept it.
Feel terrible for the parents of the first guy. Loose your son and then have to see this happen because they are trying to recover his body. Horrific all around
ouch
The craziest part is that after the body was recovered...the parents cremated the bones and sent the ashes right back down into the same cave. Still smh over that bit
@@naufeltajudeen3769 that's pretty ignorant if true...
He didn't do it a day after he broke the record. Was weeks of planning after finding the body before trying to retrieve it
Yup. That's basic research.
And he didn't do it alone
@@MrE.888 he wasnt alone in the cave?
I think they planned to do a relay of the body at every 100 ft so other divers can decompress
@@MrE.888 he was alone when he died.
Laying it out in such simple terms as “things are happening 31 times faster than at the surface” really drives home how insanely dangerous those depths are. I have no dive experience, but we can all appreciate the impossible difficulty of the simplest of tasks under those circumstances. Even without all the anxiety and exertion.
Kind of reminds me of the movie Interstellar, where every hour is equal to seven years on earth...
Love the channel but I need to correct you on a couple mistakes Woody. First of all Dave discovered Deon Dryers body on October 28, 2004, the day he made his record setting dive. It was not until January 8th 2005 that the recovery dive took place. He had an entire team of people helping including his friend Don Shirley who nearly lost his life also. After 10 years the body was no longer bloated...it had turned into corpse wax or 'Adipocere' where the body fat becomes a soapy type of wax. This is what caused the body to float which in turn caused many problems which contributed to Dave's entanglement which ultimately cost him his life in addition to the carbon dioxide buildup in his re-breather.
Thank you. I really do need to do a follow up as I simply reacted without tainting myself to reviewing any data or facts prior to watching. I need to do that and appreciate your comment very much!
I am really not sure about the part of buildup inside the re-breather. It surly doesn't sound like the device is the issue, except if you count the back mounted counter-lung being responsible for negative static lung load, resistance in the flow coming from pure engineering limits, and so on. It sounds more like he was reaching the flow peak/plateau for that gas density he was at. To put it short - at that depth, you cannot afford to "work very hard" cus you won't be able to exhale the Co2. The buildup was inside him, not inside the device.
@@DIVETALK Much respect.
he had no one helping him past the cave roof below! the teams were only there to take the body off him at 3 different stages while he decompressed! He had no experience in body retrieval and thinking the body was a skeleton and not going to turn to dust when he touched it was a fatal error in judgment ! I run a forensics page and study the body farm on decomposition of a body in all sorts of situations. Bodies also fall apart and its a well known fact the hands and feet and heads also fall off during decomp. 10 years under the water this body would be anything but solid with just bones left on what appeared to be flesh. a lot of that silt was the body disintegrating when it was disturbed. If not the the oxygen tanks and dive suite it would have floated up to the surface long ago. The only thing keeping this body together was the dive suit. Thats y it was moving around as it was disintegrating when Dave tried to get it in the body bag. This is y ppl study and research decomposition of bodies and also retrieval. Being a good diver is one thing... being an expert on body retrieval is a completely different expertise! It also looked like Dave freaked out upon discovering this observation as well. hence another reason for the heavy breathing.
@@DIVETALK FYI, there was actually a documentary about this dive that came out in 2020 (I think) called "Dave Not Coming Back." Not a great doc, but at least gives a lot more info about the events
This is my first and only one join channel I did in my life . Gus and Woody - thank you for your channel.
As a psd who's recovered a lot of bodies, he shouldn't of worried about bagging until a deco or had family and cameras stage somewhere outside dive site, and do what you can and come back. There is no time limit for a body, it's not a rescue it's a recovery.
James good point and thanks for the comment.
I was going to say the exact same thing, it seems so easy from here, that intoxication that happens down there must be intense.
That was my first thought. Why not take the body like it is and put in a bodybag in the cavern
I haven’t double checked but from what I recall the body had been there for a while and I think the body bag was more for trying to ensure everything stayed in one piece rather than for obscuring it from view, that was a secondary consideration.
This thread answers the question I had. Thanks.
If Woody says “at that depth, by yourself” you know he’s worried.
Very worried! Thanks for the commentary.
That recovery is as absurd or useless as trying to bring a frozen corpse from Mount Everest , Annapurna or K2 .
That's what I was also thinking, sadly.
@@kimikae4170 You cannot breath life into a corpse . That simple .
Actually more so
If i were the kid's parents, I would have insisted he not try to make the recovery. I wouldn't want his life on my hands. The cave was as good a burial spot as any for their son.
People act all upset over climbers using hiking markers like greenboots, but its faux outrage thats completely misplaced. Are they going to go and recover those bodies? I don't think so. What's disrespectful about leaving them where they fell? It serves as a warning and a catalyst for introspection for all who pass by. I beleive that marking their graves with a monument of some kind and learning a lesson from their deaths is the best way to honor them
Wish he had watched a better version of this. Because there’s more to the story, even one of his dive partners had problems… started suffering from severe vertigo and started vomiting underwater. Took him several weeks to recover.
Yes we now know that. I simply reacted to just this video but we are going to do a follow up based on the real facts. Thanks for pointing this out.
I know this is a 2yr old comment but the thought of having vertigo while diving is an experience I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. I’ve only experienced vertigo once and it was horrible, and that’s when I’m still on the surface relaxing my body!
900 ft deep to recover an already deceased diver? I know nothing about diving, but that sounds an awful lot like the Everest no help line of altitude. All you can do is fend for yourself , or you wont make it .
You can’t really compare the two. You don’t get to the top of Everest in 10 min.
That deceased diver was there 10 years. Dave went for the record dive and he accidentally found him down there. Then he decided to make an action for retreiving,but not just 1 day,or the next day after his 1st dive but months after preparing,planning and with the team of 12 divers. But on the bottom he was alone. You have the whole documentary on youtube about it.
@@Coach_Vedo : oh wow, they planned for months? That makes some of the things that happened even weirder then: Shaw going to the bottom alone, Shaw rushing it on a breathing apparatus where too much exertion can create toxic CO2 levels, and the second-to-last guy in the helpline going down further to check on him after more than the planned time passed instead of abandoning the plan which ended up causing him serious medical problems and nearly killing him as well.
Also he'd told the lads parent "I'll get him back, for you"
To give them closure, and a proper burial.
This one is so sad.
@@serwalkerofthekeynes8761 Sadly, he already had a burial....at sea.
Too bad that it wasn't left at that.
There were team members along the ascent line (they went down after him).
But I have to agree that it made no sense to attempt the most dangerous part all alone.
However, Dave himself explained it to the team by saying “better to have one person dead than two or three.”
He felt that if he got into trouble at that depth, no one could save him anyway.
He was probably right, and that would be my main criticism of this video. Woody emphasizes that a team is needed because he wants to illustrate the danger, but the more accurate and responsible thing would be to say “don’t even do this, leave the body alone.” I understand that he was trying to “not be mean” about Dave Shaw’s purpose in diving… and in any case, the lesson of not even trying this should resound to anyone thinking about it in the future, from the facts themselves.
Diving as a team is nearly impossible, at that depth, little people had the experience, and diving to world record depth the second time along with others may cause everyone to die if one had a problem
I've never gone diving (and problably will never go). I always assumed that all you had to do was grab some tanks full of oxygen (kind of like filing an helium balloon), and you were good to go. Yet I realise each dive is so technical, and so many parameters have to be taken into account, this is insane.
Yeah it's pretty amazing how technical it is. I have no desire to scuba myself, but hearing people with such extensive knowledge talk about it is fun.
This is a very difficult example of technical diving. Open water diving is very safe if you know what youre doing and is very fun and relaxing. You should give it a go.
You don't use oxygen, you would generally just use compressed atmospheric air. And for basic open water above 65 feet, it really is pretty much that simple.
If you've got any interest at all, you can do a "discover scuba" for a very low cost, where an instructor will give you a quick intro and let you try it, and see if it's something you're interested in pursuing.
The difference between this type of technical diving and normal open-water diving is extreme. The only similarity is that they both happen in water.
It's like the difference between riding on a commercial airliner, and piloting a rocket to space.
the first dive, months earlier, dave explored the cave floor and discovered the body (rather than instantly ascending.) lots of preparation went into the dive, actually.
Yeah, it's bothering me seeing all these stupid comments bagging on Shaw, if you don't know the story, shut up. I love Woody and the channel and i understand it's a first reaction, but either make it clear that you don't know what happened or research it after; because people watching who don't know are taking their word as gospel.
@@subblonde3101 yup, Dave was one of the greatest Closed circuit divers of all time. He still holds the record for depth on a rebreather.
Ignorant people gonna ignorant i guess.
@@jonathanbradley4896 what good is a record if you die doing it again? It just shows how it was reckless in the first place.
You can tell yourself he planned it perfectly and got struck by lightning. Get real. There's a reason why this failed spectacularly.
@@lightfeather9953 I agree the plan was not exactly what I would have gone for considering the amount of silt kicked up by trying to wrestle the body off the bottom.
Attaching a lift bag first to say, the first stage regulator or a D ring on Deon's BCD and adding a small amount of air would have likely made lifting the body off the bottom much less difficult. I think Dave went for the body bag approach because he was worried about the body coming apart but that didn't seem to be the case.
He made a poor judgement call that cost him his life, I personally don't think that makes him any less of a diving legend but to each their own.
I'm not a diver (yet), but I still remember the first time I watched this footage. It's rough. RIP Dave Shaw.
Yes was difficult to watch for sure.
He had a team. He had divers staged every 100 ft and planned to pass the body up like a relay race
He means a team, 1 or more other deep divers to help with the deepest tasks with the body and help deconflict at that depth and task loading
@Gal De Som man even with the army there, this guy was sent down alone? Man, what a tragedy.
Then why didnt they go get him?
@Alex Rexroat ahh. I understand that. I'd just watched something about commercial sat divers. I think it would have taken multiple trip for each task at that depth. Or have divers rotate down there. But we are all Monday quarterbacking at this point because it was so sad.
@@joysanders59 now i dont know exactly.. but i think the members of his team would be 'hovering' at certain depths with different breathing equipment than shaw used.. Just the typical oxygen tank which allows for prolonged stay at depth but also more risk for 'the bends' and the need to go slowly up and down.. what you hear typically of divers.. dont go to quickly or you blood starts to boil thing..
and david shaw himself was using other technology, the rebreather thing that allowed for a quick dash to the bottom and quick up ...from the docu i seen.. very specialist stuff that he tweaked and experimented with himself. Literally cutting edge...
But anyway, what i gathered from it David shaw was really the only one who could dive that deep. the others were just for support along the way to guide the body up. They couldve helped him if he got up from the bottom to the first diver, but they couldnt go get him.
I remember first reading this story, broke my heart. He didn't have to go down there, he just really wanted to bring those parents some closure by bringing their sons body back, such a hero and good man.
Yes his intentions were good. But multi tasking at those depths is extremely difficult especially alone.
Utmost respect to Dave Shaw, but he did admit prior to this dive that the body was just a good reason to go down there. He was going to do it anyway.
Greetings from Kentucky. I am NOT a scuba/cave diver at all. Being underwater terrifies me, but for some reason, the mechanics of it is just fascinating. I was under the impression that when a diver uses "mixes" of gases, the decompression time is less, but I guess not. I'm so sorry for Mr. Shaw's family. Thank you, Mr. Alpern, for a very interesting, informative video. Keep up the good work and above all - be safe!!
Thanks for this comment. You just made my day. Mixed gas can decrease deco time with the right oxygen mix but the helium is mainly to reduce narcosis.
I really hope you and Gus plan on reacting to Dave Not Coming Back! Such an incredible movie and provides a lot of context to this video and this story. The rescue effort of Don Shirley, one of Dave's support divers and the narrator on this video, is harrowing and incredible. Dive-reenactments in the movie are done on-location in Bushman's Hole, and Don Shirley participated in the re-enactment.
Couple notes on the video without spoiling any of the diving components of the movie:
- Dave found Deon's body four months before his death, not the day before. In addition, he had a team of 7 or 8 support divers who had planned to relay Deon's body in the bag to the surface. Nobody except Don had gone to the bottom of the cave with Dave - they had planned a staged ascent.
- Dave believed the body was skeletonized after having been stuck 900ft underwater for over a decade, hence why the plan was to put it in a body bag and bring it to the surface. It is likely that Dave did not expect Deon's body to begin floating once he reached the body at the bottom. It seems to me that the mistake that cost him his life was not bailing on the dive once he noticed the body was dislodged and floating - after some time, it may have floated to the roof of the cave on its own.
- Dave was used to putting his light around his neck while he worked underwater. However, this was also the first time he had dove with a camera on his head. He was unable to place his light in the usual position because the camera was in the way, so he left the light floating next to him instead. This is how he got his light tangled with the body.
- Don suffered from The Bends after his rescue and was unable to walk for several weeks following this dive. Nonetheless, he recorded this narration about five days after Dave's death because he knew South African news had gained access to the video, and wished to avoid having Dave's last breath aired on national television.
I’m actually surprised that you didn’t mention the OTHER diver that also nearly got himself killed! He was the first one Dave was supposed to meet up with and he actually went against the plan and dove down farther to check on him and he noticed Dave’s light was no longer moving and something had obviously gone wrong. One of his gauges or something ended up completely failing or the gauge blew or something along those lines and he was literally vomiting underwater from the effects and like I said he nearly lost his life trying to save Dave Shaw.
Yes I thought the same thing having seen the original footage and interview with that guy. The video showed and sounded an audible loud click when the glass in his dive computer cracked under the pressure. I’m not a diver but Incredible the amount of composure to take 10-12 hours to come back up while vomiting underwater etc. The rest of the crew worked extremely hard to save him.
What I think you're missing from this, and what Woody is reacting to, is that Dave was the only member of the team dealing with the body. As Woody pointed out, another diver on the floor with Dave could have helped get Dave free from the line. She the other team members have been mentioned, eh, maybe. Either way, his reaction concerning the lack of assistance on the bottom (which was Dave's choice), is what was being reacted too. Not the number of safety divers on the line who were unequipped to provide assistance on the bottom.
@@foddersfollies7494 I wasn’t saying that at all? I didn’t dispute what he was reacting to nor did I dispute what he said or the facts of the dive (dave being at the bottom alone to deal with the body, etc, etc.) I just honestly expected him to mention it, seeing as another second diver also nearly got killed just for trying to help Dave…which goes along with what he was saying about how he should have already had a buddy with him at depth actually…and almost cost two lives instead of just his own because of it. Also, I just assumed Woody knew about it and would probably mention it at some point in the video. I wasn’t “missing” anything just surprised and wondering if maybe Woody didn’t know about the stuff I had mentioned
These dive was deeper than Yuri Lipski! I get chills every time I watch this video.
Yes. Way deeper.
nearly 3x the depth i think
yea, this guy was prepared and qualified and practiced for the dive which makes it more shocking.
I love that this channel doesn’t repeat explanations of the basics of diving (narcosis, ox tox, deco, etc) over and over like most documentaries
The parents should NOT have been there. They were at the surface ready to freak out when seeing the body so they had to bag him underwater which caused him to get tangled and sadly pass away.
Bagging him shouldn’t have even been a consideration at this ridiculous depth.
My heart goes out to all families and divers involved. Heart breaking.
Also: woody is my favourite ever :)
Yes valid comment. Thanks.
The reason they bagged the body where they found it was because when he moved it bones were falling out of the exposure suit he was still wearing. As it was the skull was lost, and is still down there
Actually the parents arrived after shaw had already started the dive because they didn't want to add stress. He had no idea they were there. The body bag was needed because the body was "falling apart" and couldn't be lifted to the surface in one piece.
@@imcalledemilie2380 you’re not saying putting the body in a bag was the right idea though right? Because my point is they shouldn’t have tried something like that and it is what killed the poor man.
Without getting the body in the bag he still got the body to the surface although post mortem.
@@D4veJap4n The body was in the bag though. You even see Shaw zip the bag up and over the bodies face. The body had been down there for years and was literally falling apart when Shaw went down the first time. So yes the bag was needed.
This could’ve been successful if he had aborted the dive as soon as he saw that the body was positively buoyant, which is not what he had expected and therefore planned for. At this kind of depth you obviously can’t change the plan. Like as an airline pilot: when you don’t understand something, or something doesn’t go as planned, you must go back to the basics. In this case, abort the dive and rethink it later.But it is easier said than done, and maybe he felt some pressure to succeed right away also.
Yeah I agree and awesome point. Thanks!
Thank you, appreciate it.
I’m just going to correct you, “just like a pilot”. Airlines Pilots are not the only pilots.
@@JediOfTheRepublic But David Shaw was an airline pilot.
@@johnwinkler5361 I agree. I think there had to be a lot of pressure on him. Whether from the family he knew would be waiting upside or pressure he was putting on himself. He was trying so hard to make it happen and its just really sad. He seemed like a good guy.
I love these perspectives. To someone with little to no knowledge of cave diving, my only exposure to these stories are from the perspectives of people reporting from an outside perspective. Hearing this from experienced divers is really interesting. Thanks
Wow, these lectures are mind blowing and your final thoughts should be written in stone at every dive site. As an amateur diver I can't emphasize enough the value of this information as well as understanding the science behind these complex dives. Thank you for providing your insight and knowledge. You may have inadvertently saved lives with this video.
I have never dove in my life. In fact I have barely swam in the ocean. I can not stop watching dive talk. What an amazing hobby and channel.
I knew nothing about cave diving until today and I can’t stop watching videos like this. Thanks for the info!
Dave and Anne were friends of mine in Hong Kong. It was sad to lose him. RIP buddy
Sorry to hear that.
So sorry for your loss. I have watched everything you can at least a half a dozen times about Dave shaw. Show much respect for him to try and help out that family to bring up their son. I am not an expert but I do agree if he had someone at the bottom with him to help him get the body in the Bag things might not of happened the way they did. But this guy needs to realize it was not the next day and he was not trying to get another record. Rest in peace Dave shaw.
Idk if you watched the whole thing but he did succeed in bringing up the body. He tied a line to the body and either tied it to himself or was tangled. When the team went to pull their equipment out of the cave, both bodies were attached to the line. He would have had at least 1 other diver with him at the bottom.
No he was alone at the botom. The bodies showed up the next day closer to the surface and then the rest of the team took them out.
@@matydrum The divers returned to get their equipment and when they pulled up there stuff from down below the water they found out both bodies were entangled in the line that had all the tanks and the rest of their things.
there was no one else with him at the bottom past the cave roof! he was completely alone doing this body retrieval. the teams were placed further up get it right! 420GLADIATOR There was no other diver with him !!!
how does such an ignorant comment get so many likes, there was no one at the bottom with him, his partner Shirley descended to meet Dave at 200m to take the body, but saw no sign of Dave coming up. He went down to 250m and his glass on his computer cracked, and he had to ascend again. He saw Dave's light motionless on the bottom and knew he was dead.
Did your last sentence mean to say SHOULD instead of would?
These videos seem to suggest my dive instructors were rare unicorns when they drove home the message:
"Never dive alone."
he wasnt alone.
@@subblonde3101 okay. But I did say "these videos." Plural.
As you know, Woody, I am not a diver. I am an 81 year-old grandmother who has never even thought of becoming a diver of any kind. However, I thoroughly enjoy.DIVE TALK, and deeply appreciate that your whole goal is to make your sport safer and more enjoyable for everyone.
diving alone is a great big no-no. It makes no sense, and is a foolish thing to do. They knew better, and yet he left his self-confidence, and eagerness to perhaps set another record, all the wild doing something really good and meaningful, and he paid for it with his life. his death was so preventable.. Thank you for bringing this video to us, and for adding your own well thought out reaction.❤
Sure Woody he didn’t have all the facts that we have now, but it is still so valuable to hear him give insight even on hypothetical situations.
Thank you, Woody. You are so respectful. You’re so smart and we all enjoy getting to sit down and watch your commentation.
I'm not a diver in anyway, I went Army instead of Navy but, it takes real nerve and intelligence to deal with the stress your putting your body and mind through doing cave diving, hats off to you and your colleagues.
Thanks for the compliment.
I’m not a diver, but I’m pretty sure there was a dive team and the whole thing was filmed for a documentary. Dreyers parents were present.
They nearly lost a 2nd diver when he got the bends on the ascent, he owns a dive school in the area.
Forgive my ignorance if I’ve mixed this up with another incident.
I'm absolutely STUNNED by how FAST it went critical 😔
Yeah...at those depths it goes south real quick
Its always so fun to listen to Woody explain everything even though most of time I have no clue what he's talking about but it sounds so cool 😁
I caught myself rooting for David, even though I knew he didn't make it. Such a heart wrenching tragedy
heart-wrenching* tragedy.*
Indeed.
I don't dive or ever plan on it, probably, but I still find this stuff very interesting and fascinating. 👍
@@gp123lIlI I wish. Maybe if I had the resources I'd give it a try but until then I'll just stick to the videos.
This is actually not the full recording of David Shaw, it is containing cuts, the obvious narration, and the end is missing. At the end you can actually hear the so-called coughing exhalations. He was pushing the button to feed more oxygen too, realizing he has a problem, but his body was physically unable to exhale the C02 due to multiple factors, but in short, it's called dynamic airway compression. You can see comments on this in videos like DAN's video named "respiratory failure in technical diving". At about minute 31 you will hear actual exhalations. NOTE: it's rather graphic in nature, discretion advised.
Cheers guys, love the videos. Keep it up.
I always feel like there's gonna be something terrifying in the water
Thank you so much for doing a reaction video of this dive. It helps to really understand what fully happened..
As a non diver but a person who loves to learn and love the aspect of your work I truly appreciate your attention to detail . Thank you
the goodman handle on the dropped torch entangled in the cave line. Dave was dragging a body behind him at 270m . 28 bar(atmispheres) co2 caught up with him. was not hypoxia. machine was delivering 1.1 ppo2.
Great video. Watched three times. Learn more each time about what happens with too many tasks
Woohoo! Thanks for watching!
You will learn more from reading the comments!
The Willie Nelson of diving lol.
Ol’ Willard Nelly 🧙♂️
Man jajaja
Love his big hits On the dive again and Blue eyes crying in the Cave.
Great channel!!!👍 I've been obsessed lately with trying to mentally work out my claustrophobic fears by watching a lot of cave exploration and dive videos. This channel is amazing because it not only critiques these divers but is super informative and educational. Never knew cave diving would be such an intriguing fascination of mine 🤔New fan and subscriber here 👊
I saw a video about this on another channel and I couldn't understand what went so wrong that the experienced diver died. It was so shocking. Thank you for your video explaining what can go wrong and how the diver got into trouble even though he was the best at this kind of diving.
When you started talking about how much deco he was gaining per minute, it made me curious. I opened up multideco and figured out the descent time and then I started adding a minute and measuring the delta between the previous and new run times with each additional minute. I used his hypoxic mixture and ignored cns o2 for simplicity sake and left it on a 1.2 po2 for the whole dive.
It looks like each additional minute was earning him around 60 additional minutes of deco! Crazy stuff. Great video!
Holy CRAP! Thank you for doing it! I was quite curious myself after he mentioned it. That’s just crazy to even think about, I couldn’t even imagine the pressure you’re under as well just knowing how much an extra minute can matter.
I'm sure Don shirley was in the water for almost 12 hours after the dive to deco, and he wasn't even on the bottom for any amount of time he only was supposed to be down at the last gas stage but went below his depth to see if Dave was ok, saw his light wasn't moving, and sent a message to the surface to let them know Dave wasn't coming home!
Superb commentary. Much appreciated your experience and observations
Thank you for watching.
this guy keeps suggesting that he should have help down there with the body, but this was already a world record depth. he can't just bring some guys along because he is literally the only person on the planet who thinks he's capable of pulling it off. there was never a chance of having a team down there to assist at 900 ft or whatever it was
well then maybe it woud have been better to just leave the body there :/
@@dauser4 you don't say
There was a team staged at every 100 ft.
Then he shouldn't have done that .
go train yourself up, and go retrieve BOTH bodies....hero.
I had the insight to see the follow up video which clarified a lot BUT I just wanted to say how well Woody explains things and the great job he did with his input ESPECIALLY for a non-diver like me. I've learned a lot just watching these "Dive Talk" videos AND as much as I like Gus as well - great job Woody. Keep up the good work. Kudos.
these diving pov videos with things going wrong are so stressful to watch but i can't stop watching!
I REALLY wish you guys would make the dive screen video larger and yall smaller during the videos we can barely see what you're seeing if we are using a phone.... plssss
apparently be believed he was going to find a skeletal body, and was surprised by it being a chalky body with almost no decomp because of the extreme location. which makes little sense to expect a skeletal recovery but it’s what was reported by his people at the time.
Thanks for the additional info!
well its the damn pathologists fault.....i dunno how they wouldnt know about the body not decomposing the same when there is no oxygen down there. Dave and the team did everything right.
That footage is excruciating. I feel like I'm down in that cave.
I felt the same way when I watched it. It’s awful.
I was tensing every muscle and grabbing the edge of my computer chair .
This is my favorite episode of Dive Talk , I think Woody did an awesome job considering the informstion he had available at the moment .
Tragic. But informative. Despite how experienced he was and the thorough planning, one simple unexpected turn (the floating of the body) was enough to create a disaster. I guess the lesson here, if one simple thing goes against the plan, abort immediately.
Did you guys react/analyze the case of Audrey Mestre? Another totally avoidable tragic.
I'm not a diver and barely understood a word this guy said, yet it was still fascinating. What a sad story though. I would hope that the families of people who die in extremely difficult to reach places would tell any potential rescuers "Please don't. It's not worth risking your life to recover a body." Yet it seems like so often they're willing to risk someone else's life just to get their loved one's body back. Sherpas have died while trying to retrieve bodies from Everest, having been offered lots of money by the dead person's family to do so. It is very sad.
Still binge drinking beers to his memory in May 2021 NEVER FORGET DAVID SHAW!
Really sad for sure. So sorry this happened.
I always thought he pushed the limits cuz he promised the parents he would recover their child.
Great commentary and spot-on, im a MSDT for PADI and you did a great job explaining it!
Thanks for this comment and support!
You should watch 'Dave not coming back' ... he had a whole team and each were stationed at various points on the line and with stage tanks etc. They were set to pass the body from one to another for obvious reasons. The major mistakes IMO were: Dave thought the body was a skeleton beforehand but it wasn't, he made mistakes with his setup plan for lines attaching to Deon, he shouldn't have even put Deon in a bag, and I personally am of the belief that he needed to do more dives down there and really see what his real capacity was. And be more judicious with how long he could take down there. I don't think he trained long enough in that kind of depth. The current record holder spent four years training. I don't exactly know enough to speak to Dave's situation, but I know his initial dive to that depth was just one year prior. Anyways, may he rest in peace. His team was incredible. Love your content, btw!
He planned the dive for months prior to the actual dive, he found the body the year before, and he did have a full team, who were staged at different depths, it was only the bottom time he was alone.
Yeah dunno how he came to that end. Says in another comment he watched the doc on it too lol. Must have misheard in the doc and stuck with that
he should’ve had someone else with him on the bottom, all those tasks by himself were too much. maybe he would’ve survived 😕
@@us2zu it would have only put more people in harm's way!
900ft deep, in a cave, almost unfathomable
150 fathoms.
@@vincentsubmarinismo774 So it is fathomable after all.
Some bodies turn into a waxy substance called Adipocere and the reason why they float is because that substance is lighter than water, that is different from decomposing bodies which float due to the amount of gases generated by decomposition.
Great reaction Woody!! Your commentary is always super educational!!
Hey man! Just wanted to say thank you for the quality and informative content. Appreciate you sharing your insight and experience!!
Point of clarification he was on a Mk15.5 with HammerHead electronics. Biomarine created the rebreather for the military. HammerHead is one of many vendors that sells replacement electronics for it. Hammerhead CCR is a completely different unit.
I have been on 2 open water tourist dives my entire life. My uncle however was a very skilled dive instructor in the Bahamas. He passed away we did once talk about this. His opinions which make sense was at the time, this was a world record dive. It was not a dive 2 or 3 guys could do. This was then and im sure today is still a dangerous dive. This was a dive that at 2005 technology was barely up on. Which is what made Shaw such a daredevil. Also probably proves the point while is heart was in the right place he had no business doing this. He knew the risk. Had more experience then anyone else. He obviously is a heroic spirit. Just a few points of this review even from a moron like me perspective are off the facts.
Thanks for this very valid comment.
Why couldn't they do the body bag at the first deco stop?
Exactly!
Good analysis. I know you weren't informed at the time of the video a d got some facts wrong but still good honest reactions which are still very very useful for anyone learning.
Would you guys let me know what kind of setups you have for your recording? Woody's is quite nice!
David did have a team according to this short documentary on youtube ruclips.net/video/OVZ_XAXUWlw/видео.html however, as stated, he didn't have anyone with him to help recover the body, he miscalculated the time needed based on a lucky or successful previous dive and almost cost the life of closest diver who got worried that Dave didn't come back on time, he got so sick himself that he started vomiting and had to be rescued.
I thought that because of the extreme depth, only Dave could have gone down to the bottom. I don't dive, but from what I read, Dave was only the 3rd person in the world to reach to floor. And he did have a team in the water and out. Don Shirley was the first, waiting at 700 some feet and like 6 or 7 others above him to relay the body. Instead they had to relay the news of him not coming back.
It is true that Dave was one of only 11 people to go down past 800 ft, but that’s starting at the Surface, commercial divers go down to thousands of feet but that takes special preparation. The bottom line is that they tried to do too much at that depth and it cost him his life.
@@DIVETALK I have to agree. Thanks for the review! I've read a lot about this story and it's interesting to hear from am experienced technical diver!
I have never dived at all but I find this so interesting!
Dave didn't do this dive the day before. He did the dive 6 months before and he wasn't coaxed into getting the body, it was his choice to go and get the body (he literally came up after the dive and said I want to get him). The reason he died was because he had a camera mounted on his helmet, something he wasn't used to. He again made that choice, he was the one who decided to document the dive to recover the body. He had consulted with scientists and other people in the community and the majority of the community made the assertion that the body would have been entirely decomposed and therefore negatively buoyant (they thought it would be a skeleton and that's why he was going to put it into the bag from there). That wasn't the case obviously. He had safety divers at every decom stop. The guy who is narrating this was his primary safety diver and he was sitting around 50ft above him. He went to the bottom when he noticed Dave wasn't moving and turned around when one piece of gear broke. He also almost died. Did his ego kill him, maybe. This wasn't about records though.
Edit: Yeah obviously saw the follow up video. Glad you guys went out of your way to make the proper corrections. I'm not a diver but I remember watching the documentary and it was just brutal but their expertise and overall preparation was unparalleled. This was a classic death spiral, had they not wanted to film it, he might have not got caught on the body and might be alive today.
I'm happy I watched updated version first
“Face it, B, we're doing this for the adventure of it.” - Dave Shaw
What am I most afraid of? Hmm
Plane crash
Cave death
What do I watch? Plane crash and cave/dive death vids.
I'm never leaving my house again.
This is a funny comment. Laughing as I type this. Ha
SAME, I was watching black box recordings from plane crashes then I got here 😂😂
I'm really claustrophobic, so naturally I'm here from the John Jones Nutty Putty horror.
I have fully watched this video at least 20 times , like you said : At 900 feet , there's not room for error .
Yes especially when task loading.
You told the truth chasing a record, being a Hero.
Me, being terrified of depth and caves and being submerged, and also being completely stoned, clickes on this video, expecting a horror story.
Instead I’m now researching like a maniac to understand all the different gas mixtures and ratio numbers. I love it.
DAN South Africa had a great video about how doing too much work at depth overcame his rebreather and did a cascade that caused him to be unable to recover. Dr Simon Mitchell analyzed it.
do you know if Dave was aware of that being a possibility or was this some newly discovered malfunction?
@@mackhomie6 Pretty sure he didn’t. Prof Mitchell was actually analyzing Dave’s accident when he was discussing this. Early in the dive, Dave had regular breathing but as he started trying to open the body bag, his breathing became labored and he even had a cough. His work of breathing became hard and his rebreather couldn’t keep his ppo2 at the right level.
@@mikesbigadventures194 i had heard this theory before but i didn't know it had been substantiated. the way things were going, though, i wonder if he was doomed from all the other compounding factors already
@@mackhomie6 Mitchell did a pretty thorough job discussing it. But yeah, he said if he hadn’t been doing all the work he might have made it. Getting tangled is what pushed him over. Mitchell made a pretty compelling case.
@@mikesbigadventures194 to me it felt like the moment he fumbled and dropped the scissors was something of a turning point. i might be imagining it, but i would think the panic would hit pretty hard, being tangled, narced, struggling for air, and i don't know what psychological effect the corpse coming face to face with you has--if any--but I'd be making deals with the God I don't believe in right about then. that shit creeps me out, as if he were looking in a mirror at his own future. I thought about this for weeks after first seeing the footage from one of the documentaries.
edit: didn't mean to contradict you, im sure youre right about what the final mishap was
I suspect he was narced and a goner very shortly after he reached the body. So much focus on the scissors with out using them is a worry. Also when he described the state he was in when he first found the body on the earlier dive I'm pretty stunned he thought he could recover a body with out joining it. From his own description it didn't sound doable.
That's really sad how fast things took a bad turn. Hopefully his story is able to save others' lives who would otherwise push themselves way too hard just for a new record or their pride.
Agree...at that depth things can cost you your life in an instant. Thanks for watching.
I just wanted to say I just discovered you guys last week and have been watching your videos and wanted to say I know absolutely Dogass about diving but Dive talk is so damn interesting to me. I love it! Keep up the good work Woody & Gus !
Another engaging insight from Dive Talk.
I watched the documentary film 'Dave not coming back' which was very interesting, not to mention tragic.
I also learned that a few days before the attempt, Don Shirleys dive (wrist) computer had failed at depth. It couldn't take the pressure. They managed to contact the designer of the unit who talked them through repairing it. For me, that was the point at which the dive should have been aborted - if the equipment is not up to the task then it's time for a rethink.
Both Dave and Don were extremely experienced divers, but having Dave alone at the bottom left no redundancy for circumstances unaccounted for. No matter how well you plan you just cannot legislate for the unknown. Don also ended up getting bent due to a tiny air bubble in his ear and could only manually hit his rebreather to keep himself alive.
Tragic.
END at that depth is about 151 feet. I had my first narc experience at the age of 15 at 124 feet. So yeah, probably a bit of narcosis.
Many people begin to experience narcosis as shallow as 90 or 100 ft. There’s definitely narcosis by 151
Just dropping by to say there's a New Video from Woody and Gus on this very topic that sheds a ton of light, corrections and updates on the whole thing. Do give it a watch 🙌🏻 These guys are gold 🤍
Thank you for leaving this comment
As a young fellow I used to pot hole in the UK, with some free diving sumps up to 30ft. I always thought cave divers were mad men, and still do.
I’m not a diver and I don’t know anything about it, but I’m glade I found your videos! I really enjoy you breaking down these videos
Austin we are sure glad you found us as well.
I love watching these right before bed so I can then try and sleep with my anxiety and claustrophobia through the roof! And I also learned that I will never go into a cave, ever!