The reverb was different between these machines - that might make you think one is "bigger". About warmness, I don't know. The patch conversion in this video was still work in progress, although I was wishing it was over. I found that K2700 actually has almost all the K2500 samples, but I had not found the correct ones yet in this video. Also, some algorithm parameters were still wrong here. In my later video (ruclips.net/video/9vqNp-SOFGo/видео.html) I do a demo after almost all patches sound identical to the K2500.
Ok, yes the 2500 has noise and distortion, so it will always sound like that. If desired, noise and distortion can always be added to the 2700, but not removed from 2500. I prefer the 2700, giving me more freedom.
Sorry I made this video too early. After this video, I found the correct samples and configurations to make the K2700 sound identical. I made a demo video about those corrected sounds. Did not have time to make another direct sound-by-sound comparison video (which would be boring as they now are identical).
Believe me, i and am sure others enjoying every second from your videos, sir i wish you to have the time for making more great videos like this , thank you 🤝
Hello fellow Kurzweiler! Thank you so so much for documenting the sounds and explaining how you tweaked them. I've been also battling with a few specific patches, I'd specifically like to ask you how you handled those patches with AmpMod effects? Like that one brass sound in the Brass Farm. Also did you know that the KMS team did make KDFX replacements for all of the K2x and K25 digitech effects? All those replacement effect chains are secretly included in the PC3 lineage synths and I found lots of them listed in the Forte manual as well. You just need to put them together manually as Kdfx Studios aren't available in the new keyboards. Haven't looked at 2700 manuals yet but I think they might be in. I am and will be a PC3K user myself as long as my keyboard doesn't break down, fortunately it seems the K2700 is quite compatible with these older machines!
I have not finished all the brass sounds yet. Not sure if you mean a brass sound from the basic factory patches and an effect or algorithm. At least the "AMP H L" algorithm block found in "Orchestral Brass" is easy to replace by just a summing of two paths and adjust the signal strengths approximately by the pad settings, or some other means. That block does not seem to simulate an amplifier or anything. I don't have the KDFX so I don't know about those effects.
@@GrimVoxTech I'm sorry, my mistake as my memory didn't serve me right. I was talking about the K25Farm Brass, objects 231 and 232, Fake Sax and Hybrid Sax. But I guess you're not familiar with them. I've been thinking if the Shape Mod Osc algorithm could be simulated in some other way.
@@GrimVoxTech About the emulated internal effects in KDFX, you could try out yourself if they sound any good. You'll find these Effect presets inside the Effect chains, when you start by editing any of the available chains. I'll list just a few of them here: K25 internal - K27 effect preset 1 Sweet hall 85 Sweet hall 2 Small hall 50 Small hall 3 Medium hall 51 Medium hall 5 Big Gym 103 Big gym 7 Opera House 53 Opera House
Amusing how synth makers can alter their sound with new releases, while in my world, a change in original functionality would be considered a bug... random lol. Great sounding comparisons!
Most synth makers don't allow new models to play any patches from old models. I'm still working on these patches and they are getting more similar day by day. The different effects also make a big difference.
Tosi laadukasta! Nämä videot kyllä kantsis vinkata vaikka sinne K2700 facebook-ryhmään, todella hyödyllisiä monelle joilla on joku K2XXX -sarjan keyboard. Monet heistä voisi jopa rohkaistua ostamaan näiden takia K2700:n 👍🏻
Some sounds are very close indeed so you have done a good job with those. But not all though. And I still prefer the sound of the K2500 to the K2700 when they don't match either. Did you know the K2600 even though it loads K-Series sounds perfectly without any editing, still sound a little different to the K2500 playing the same sound. They changed something even in the K2600! The K2500 reigns supreme for its sound. Now I have been buying some new banks that have been coming out for the old K-Series. Some banks are huge atmospheric soundscapes and I mean huge! You would not believe you are hearing a Kurzweil K2500. These are super complex sounds too that evolve over time etc... You are matching rather straight forward sounds. But I wonder how the K2700 would go loading a super complex soundscape from one of these new K-Series banks. I bet it would not sound the same initially or as good either as the K2500.
Yeah it sounds nicer in some cases for sure. Probably the majority. When you move away from backwards compatibility though the new Kurzweils are pretty cool. They sound just as musical on their own (not trying to emulate older K series I mean). And you can come up with all sorts of interesting sounds. The flexibility of the new machines is also something that matters I think. Having a DX7 on board for example. Having modern interfaces like USB. More sample storage etc etc. My k2600x is loud. It's the 2mb scsi disk I guess which makes it loud. Vast has changed a bit over the years. The older K series don't have the VA1 oscillators or filters on board. Fewer layers etc. But I agree with you. The older K series are cool machines that sound pretty great. I'd love to be able to have room for all of the K series. They each bring a little something. But that's obviously not possible. :)
@@Screaming-Trees My K2500R died finally. I have been having a lot of trouble with it. I ended up getting another K2000R instead. This one though is fully optioned up with the Contemporary and Orchestral ROMS plus PRAM as well meaning it can hold 1000 patches. I have never heard these ROMS but they are amazing to say the least. It's like those presets are K series on steroids or something. I am so happy now. Got a new LED display too and it looks incredible. I think in retrospect the K2000 and K2500 sound very similar and close. But unique though. It is an amazing fat sound that has a sonic signature of its own. There are some really great new banks coming out for it which is pushing VAST to the limit and creating some awesome textures. I owned a PC3K6 and I agree with you in that yes it sounded excellent but still not like the K series though. They moved away from that sound. It did not load K2000 patches very well either.
@@jeffevansmusic Nice. I loved the sound of my PC3k8. It's travelled the world with me. Been to every continent almost. It sounded different from the K2600 but I loved the way it sounded. It was very musical. This guy I think did an amazing job with patches for the PC3K series over the years: www.youtube.com/@barbenzinc/videos Really shows off what's possible. That said I did prefer the K2600 a bit. I liked the keybed a little more and it sounded a little sweeter maybe. I don't know if that's the right word. It could be just programming differences too. Every little thing seems to impact the final output. There were downsides though. It was huge and like I said the scsi disk was very loud making it my loudest keyboard. I played my PC3K8 until I broke a key (which sadly broke a cluster of keys basically because of the way the keyboard works I guess). That's 12 years later though and like I said it's travelled the world a few times too. I decided to retire it and pickup a K2700 recently. It's not perfect but it's capable of some great sounds and it has some modern comforts too like USB and 4gb of storage etc etc. Maybe I'll pickup a rack K series at some point I don't know. I really don't have any more room for synths. I have too many.
Have you used the 2700 with a digital audio worksatation like Presonus? I'm trying to use it as a midi controller over the USB cable, but I can't get it to be recognized.
Yes, I use Cakewalk Sonar Producer on an Windows XP computer. But I have not tried to use the K2700 USB as a MIDI port. I have a separate MIDI controller. You probably have to install to your computer the USB driver from Kurzweil's website for that to work.
@@GrimVoxTech Thank you for the reply! I appreciate that. I'll work at it. I've gotten it to work as an audio input device via the USB out from the K2700, but it won't recognize it as a midi instrument input. I may look towards a midi interface. Great channel!
Greetings Grim- Thank for this pure musicianship demonstration- Also, your VOICE DEFINITELY FITS YOUR CHANNEL NAME....Its very signature! Have yuh tried doing VOICE OVER WORK? Cinematic/animation CHARACTERS? Also do you have tracks you sell? Mi looking for some the things you doing on here...NO SPECIFIC GENRES. Just THOUGHT PROVOKING, EERIE AND DANCEABLE. Thinking MARVIN GAYE OR CURTIS MAYFIELD type DARK, AMD HAUNTING And CHORDS PROGRESSION MOVING lyke you do here. Or if you sell INTROS and loops like you were doing here. Kindly let me know! Mi do MI OWN SOUND, however..., mi always open to others collaboration or suggestions. Mi really enjoy your playing style and creative mind!...Mi have a lot of music out on AUDIOMACK AND ALL SONGS ARE TRENDING CURRENTLY,,,But mi want sounds dat PAINT A STORY and that s what you were doing here- again, KINDLY LET MI KNOW. Big ups...Blessings and nuff Rispek- SUBSCRIBED!
Kurzweil is a great synth it defo requires programming to make it personal , if only someone does a patch converter for 2500 and 2600 to 2700 id pay for that any takers
Thanks for taking the time to share this! This is definitely good news as I have some legacy sounds I wasn’t going to bother with as I kept hearing they’re not going to covert due to missing samples, different algorithms, etc. but you’ve provided hope! Longer video is justified in this case. I’m surprised how some sounds sound more full the K2500 and others are more full / deep on the K2500. Is it the samples or some programming tweaks still required? I’m also impressed how close the sound quality on the K2500 is to the K2700 despite one using 18-bit DAC vs 32-bit DAC. Would you consider sharing your converted patches? I’m sure others would be interest - especially on the current Kurzweil forums and groups. Keep up the good work and keep the videos coming!
Differences in the sounds could be of several reason. One is the fact that effects are different in all cases. I did try to associate some effect with each patch but I did not put any effort in trying to match the effects. Another difference is the balance of sound levels of various layers in multi-layer sounds. I'm still working on matching them better. In some cases the algorithms have changed and I needed to try to simulate the K25 sound with a different set of algorithms. Some need more work still. Fortunately there are no many of these but they need a lot of work and tweaking. Almost all of the K25 samples I found in the K27 and they are identical. But a few I have not found yet and there is a similar sample sounding a little bit different. Human hearing can not distinguish any difference if the DAC is 14 bit or more. Above this the quantization noise will be buried under room noise and noise from your breathing and blood circulating, unless you listen so loudly that you damage you hearing. Instead of physical bits in the converters one should look at the signal-to-noise (SNDR) figures, or the ENOB (Effective number of bits) calculated from SNDR. K2500 is much noisier. Most of the K2500 noise comes from the effects unit, which converts analog to digital and back to analog. I suspect K2700 is digital all the way until final DAC. RUclips compresses the audio and fine details are lost there, so really detailed sonic comparison can not be done from RUclips videos.
I'm quite busy with many projects and in no need of money, so it would be very difficult for me to find time for such projects. If there would be something special and interesting in return for a favor, then maybe.
Sorry but I think that the K2700 sounds a bit compressed compared to the K2500, what a shame Kurzweil, I was thinking of purchasing a K2700 they seem to be going worse on sound quality, thank you for the reviews.
VAST has undergone several iterations in between K2500 and K2700, I'm pretty sure there can be done something in the gain staging to make the 2700 sound more similar - if that is desirable
@@borgzapper6252 Yes there are changes and there are improvements in quality. But I wish they would had just added new and kept the old for compatibility. Or include a compatibility mode in the layer so you could choose to use the old algos. Yes the sound level adjustment I have been fixing. I'm still working on many patches. In my demo everything was still work in progress.
Yes, I'm also disappointed that getting samples into the K2700 is difficult. I prefer now editing and creating samples with the computer as I have a bigger screen and mouse and advanced possibilities to make seamless loops. But as far as I know the only way to transfer the sample is via an USB memory drive. This is tedious and the USB slot is at the back of the K2700 :(
Shame on Kurzweil for not allowing perfect direct importing. That’s just lazy programming on their part or them being cheap and not paying to do it right. I’m not impressed with their lack of consideration for their loyal customers.
The sounds on the 2500 sound warmer and bigger.
The reverb was different between these machines - that might make you think one is "bigger". About warmness, I don't know. The patch conversion in this video was still work in progress, although I was wishing it was over. I found that K2700 actually has almost all the K2500 samples, but I had not found the correct ones yet in this video. Also, some algorithm parameters were still wrong here. In my later video (ruclips.net/video/9vqNp-SOFGo/видео.html) I do a demo after almost all patches sound identical to the K2500.
Kurzweil should really pay you for these videos! Thank you so much for all this info!
The overall sound of the 2500 sounds much better to me. It has balls and some special quality, compared the 2700 sounds thin.
Ok, yes the 2500 has noise and distortion, so it will always sound like that. If desired, noise and distortion can always be added to the 2700, but not removed from 2500. I prefer the 2700, giving me more freedom.
wow hanks for sharing what the k2700 is capable of. i see ill be busy filling my 4000 used slots next week ...
very good
When am hearing the difference i feel very sad , the new kurzweil sound like vst plugin 😢, thanx alot for all your videos 🤝
Sorry I made this video too early. After this video, I found the correct samples and configurations to make the K2700 sound identical. I made a demo video about those corrected sounds. Did not have time to make another direct sound-by-sound comparison video (which would be boring as they now are identical).
Believe me, i and am sure others enjoying every second from your videos, sir i wish you to have the time for making more great videos like this , thank you 🤝
Hello fellow Kurzweiler! Thank you so so much for documenting the sounds and explaining how you tweaked them. I've been also battling with a few specific patches, I'd specifically like to ask you how you handled those patches with AmpMod effects? Like that one brass sound in the Brass Farm.
Also did you know that the KMS team did make KDFX replacements for all of the K2x and K25 digitech effects? All those replacement effect chains are secretly included in the PC3 lineage synths and I found lots of them listed in the Forte manual as well. You just need to put them together manually as Kdfx Studios aren't available in the new keyboards. Haven't looked at 2700 manuals yet but I think they might be in.
I am and will be a PC3K user myself as long as my keyboard doesn't break down, fortunately it seems the K2700 is quite compatible with these older machines!
I have not finished all the brass sounds yet. Not sure if you mean a brass sound from the basic factory patches and an effect or algorithm. At least the "AMP H L" algorithm block found in "Orchestral Brass" is easy to replace by just a summing of two paths and adjust the signal strengths approximately by the pad settings, or some other means. That block does not seem to simulate an amplifier or anything. I don't have the KDFX so I don't know about those effects.
@@GrimVoxTech I'm sorry, my mistake as my memory didn't serve me right. I was talking about the K25Farm Brass, objects 231 and 232, Fake Sax and Hybrid Sax. But I guess you're not familiar with them. I've been thinking if the Shape Mod Osc algorithm could be simulated in some other way.
@@GrimVoxTech About the emulated internal effects in KDFX, you could try out yourself if they sound any good. You'll find these Effect presets inside the Effect chains, when you start by editing any of the available chains. I'll list just a few of them here:
K25 internal - K27 effect preset
1 Sweet hall 85 Sweet hall
2 Small hall 50 Small hall
3 Medium hall 51 Medium hall
5 Big Gym 103 Big gym
7 Opera House 53 Opera House
@@redeemer665 Cool. I'll check those out. I have yet only used the ready made chains.
love k2500
@GrimVoxTech
Which one do you prefer, and would you say it's redundant to get a 2500 if one already own a 2700?
Thanks you for your video !
Wish I could buy the K2700 in Canada….., not here yet !
Amusing how synth makers can alter their sound with new releases, while in my world, a change in original functionality would be considered a bug... random lol. Great sounding comparisons!
Most synth makers don't allow new models to play any patches from old models. I'm still working on these patches and they are getting more similar day by day. The different effects also make a big difference.
Tosi laadukasta! Nämä videot kyllä kantsis vinkata vaikka sinne K2700 facebook-ryhmään, todella hyödyllisiä monelle joilla on joku K2XXX -sarjan keyboard. Monet heistä voisi jopa rohkaistua ostamaan näiden takia K2700:n 👍🏻
I think Livin' Joy used an Organ patch from the 2500 on " Dreamer "
Some sounds are very close indeed so you have done a good job with those. But not all though. And I still prefer the sound of the K2500 to the K2700 when they don't match either. Did you know the K2600 even though it loads K-Series sounds perfectly without any editing, still sound a little different to the K2500 playing the same sound. They changed something even in the K2600! The K2500 reigns supreme for its sound. Now I have been buying some new banks that have been coming out for the old K-Series. Some banks are huge atmospheric soundscapes and I mean huge! You would not believe you are hearing a Kurzweil K2500. These are super complex sounds too that evolve over time etc... You are matching rather straight forward sounds. But I wonder how the K2700 would go loading a super complex soundscape from one of these new K-Series banks. I bet it would not sound the same initially or as good either as the K2500.
I agree that the K2500 sounds better! Maybe I am a little bias as I have one 😊
Yeah it sounds nicer in some cases for sure. Probably the majority. When you move away from backwards compatibility though the new Kurzweils are pretty cool. They sound just as musical on their own (not trying to emulate older K series I mean). And you can come up with all sorts of interesting sounds. The flexibility of the new machines is also something that matters I think. Having a DX7 on board for example. Having modern interfaces like USB. More sample storage etc etc. My k2600x is loud. It's the 2mb scsi disk I guess which makes it loud. Vast has changed a bit over the years. The older K series don't have the VA1 oscillators or filters on board. Fewer layers etc. But I agree with you. The older K series are cool machines that sound pretty great. I'd love to be able to have room for all of the K series. They each bring a little something. But that's obviously not possible. :)
@@Screaming-Trees My K2500R died finally. I have been having a lot of trouble with it. I ended up getting another K2000R instead. This one though is fully optioned up with the Contemporary and Orchestral ROMS plus PRAM as well meaning it can hold 1000 patches. I have never heard these ROMS but they are amazing to say the least. It's like those presets are K series on steroids or something. I am so happy now. Got a new LED display too and it looks incredible. I think in retrospect the K2000 and K2500 sound very similar and close. But unique though. It is an amazing fat sound that has a sonic signature of its own. There are some really great new banks coming out for it which is pushing VAST to the limit and creating some awesome textures. I owned a PC3K6 and I agree with you in that yes it sounded excellent but still not like the K series though. They moved away from that sound. It did not load K2000 patches very well either.
@@jeffevansmusic Nice. I loved the sound of my PC3k8. It's travelled the world with me. Been to every continent almost. It sounded different from the K2600 but I loved the way it sounded. It was very musical. This guy I think did an amazing job with patches for the PC3K series over the years: www.youtube.com/@barbenzinc/videos
Really shows off what's possible.
That said I did prefer the K2600 a bit. I liked the keybed a little more and it sounded a little sweeter maybe. I don't know if that's the right word. It could be just programming differences too. Every little thing seems to impact the final output. There were downsides though. It was huge and like I said the scsi disk was very loud making it my loudest keyboard.
I played my PC3K8 until I broke a key (which sadly broke a cluster of keys basically because of the way the keyboard works I guess). That's 12 years later though and like I said it's travelled the world a few times too. I decided to retire it and pickup a K2700 recently. It's not perfect but it's capable of some great sounds and it has some modern comforts too like USB and 4gb of storage etc etc. Maybe I'll pickup a rack K series at some point I don't know. I really don't have any more room for synths. I have too many.
Have you used the 2700 with a digital audio worksatation like Presonus? I'm trying to use it as a midi controller over the USB cable, but I can't get it to be recognized.
Yes, I use Cakewalk Sonar Producer on an Windows XP computer. But I have not tried to use the K2700 USB as a MIDI port. I have a separate MIDI controller. You probably have to install to your computer the USB driver from Kurzweil's website for that to work.
@@GrimVoxTech Thank you for the reply! I appreciate that. I'll work at it. I've gotten it to work as an audio input device via the USB out from the K2700, but it won't recognize it as a midi instrument input. I may look towards a midi interface.
Great channel!
Greetings Grim-
Thank for this pure musicianship demonstration-
Also, your VOICE DEFINITELY FITS YOUR CHANNEL NAME....Its very signature! Have yuh tried doing VOICE OVER WORK? Cinematic/animation CHARACTERS?
Also do you have tracks you sell? Mi looking for some the things you doing on here...NO SPECIFIC GENRES. Just THOUGHT PROVOKING, EERIE AND DANCEABLE. Thinking MARVIN GAYE OR CURTIS MAYFIELD type DARK, AMD HAUNTING And CHORDS PROGRESSION MOVING lyke you do here. Or if you sell INTROS and loops like you were doing here. Kindly let me know!
Mi do MI OWN SOUND, however..., mi always open to others collaboration or suggestions. Mi really enjoy your playing style and creative mind!...Mi have a lot of music out on AUDIOMACK AND ALL SONGS ARE TRENDING CURRENTLY,,,But mi want sounds dat PAINT A STORY and that s what you were doing here- again, KINDLY LET MI KNOW.
Big ups...Blessings and nuff Rispek- SUBSCRIBED!
Kurzweil is a great synth it defo requires programming to make it personal , if only someone does a patch converter for 2500 and 2600 to 2700 id pay for that any takers
A great job...
Are you gonna upload converted programs onto the K27 FB group?
K2500 WIN. ........................UUUUUUHHHHH DELUSION K2700.
No problem loading PC3 and K2000 patches when I did NOT load dependent objects. Did you try that, by chance?
I can't remember. But good hint! You can always load everything needed manually and not use the dependent objects option.
Thanks for taking the time to share this! This is definitely good news as I have some legacy sounds I wasn’t going to bother with as I kept hearing they’re not going to covert due to missing samples, different algorithms, etc. but you’ve provided hope! Longer video is justified in this case. I’m surprised how some sounds sound more full the K2500 and others are more full / deep on the K2500. Is it the samples or some programming tweaks still required? I’m also impressed how close the sound quality on the K2500 is to the K2700 despite one using 18-bit DAC vs 32-bit DAC. Would you consider sharing your converted patches? I’m sure others would be interest - especially on the current Kurzweil forums and groups. Keep up the good work and keep the videos coming!
Differences in the sounds could be of several reason. One is the fact that effects are different in all cases. I did try to associate some effect with each patch but I did not put any effort in trying to match the effects. Another difference is the balance of sound levels of various layers in multi-layer sounds. I'm still working on matching them better. In some cases the algorithms have changed and I needed to try to simulate the K25 sound with a different set of algorithms. Some need more work still. Fortunately there are no many of these but they need a lot of work and tweaking. Almost all of the K25 samples I found in the K27 and they are identical. But a few I have not found yet and there is a similar sample sounding a little bit different. Human hearing can not distinguish any difference if the DAC is 14 bit or more. Above this the quantization noise will be buried under room noise and noise from your breathing and blood circulating, unless you listen so loudly that you damage you hearing. Instead of physical bits in the converters one should look at the signal-to-noise (SNDR) figures, or the ENOB (Effective number of bits) calculated from SNDR. K2500 is much noisier. Most of the K2500 noise comes from the effects unit, which converts analog to digital and back to analog. I suspect K2700 is digital all the way until final DAC. RUclips compresses the audio and fine details are lost there, so really detailed sonic comparison can not be done from RUclips videos.
@@GrimVoxTech Thanks for this detailed reply and the knowledge - Interesting stuff, and good point about the algorithms and FX.
Will these be available for sale any time soon?
Can you do converter patches for a fee
I'm quite busy with many projects and in no need of money, so it would be very difficult for me to find time for such projects. If there would be something special and interesting in return for a favor, then maybe.
@@GrimVoxTech but you are already converting them so if you just sell what you have already converted
Sorry but I think that the K2700 sounds a bit compressed compared to the K2500, what a shame Kurzweil, I was thinking of purchasing a K2700 they seem to be going worse on sound quality,
thank you for the reviews.
Compressed? Yes, because the K2500 is noisy and has a lower dynamic range. You can always add noise to the K2700 to get lo-fi sound.
VAST has undergone several iterations in between K2500 and K2700, I'm pretty sure there can be done something in the gain staging to make the 2700 sound more similar - if that is desirable
@@borgzapper6252 Yes there are changes and there are improvements in quality. But I wish they would had just added new and kept the old for compatibility. Or include a compatibility mode in the layer so you could choose to use the old algos. Yes the sound level adjustment I have been fixing. I'm still working on many patches. In my demo everything was still work in progress.
I prefer the K2500 , the K2700 is more like a PCK series. It has no sampling option to sample and edit samples, such a disappointment.
Yes, I'm also disappointed that getting samples into the K2700 is difficult. I prefer now editing and creating samples with the computer as I have a bigger screen and mouse and advanced possibilities to make seamless loops. But as far as I know the only way to transfer the sample is via an USB memory drive. This is tedious and the USB slot is at the back of the K2700 :(
Shame on Kurzweil for not allowing perfect direct importing. That’s just lazy programming on their part or them being cheap and not paying to do it right. I’m not impressed with their lack of consideration for their loyal customers.