CNC Router Motor Upgrade to Hybrid Closed Loop Stepper Motors
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- For a few years I have had it in my mind to replace the standard stepper motors on my CNC Router with Servo Motors. I in fact did this to my Shirline Mill many years ago fitting it with a Servo Motor System. However servo motors are quite expensive and would be a bit of overkill on a home built CNC. There is a lower cost alternative known as Hybrid Closed Loop Stepper Motors. I embarked on this upgrade with some trepidation and there were a few learning bumps along the way, but overall now its completed and working perfectly I am really pleased. As to whether it was all worth the cost and effort only time will tell but at least I have done it.
Some people might ask why do this because the existing CNC Router was working perfectly, the true answer is because I love a challenge and this seemed to be a worthwhile one on my road to one day designing and building my ultimate CNC Router. I hope you enjoy the video.
** Just to correct the Motor part number in the video. They are NEMA23 Motors 573HBM20-"1000" (1000 line encoder,2NM output)
Now a bit of an explanation:
A closed-loop steeper motor system combines benefits of Servo motors and Stepper motors. Functionally, a closed-loop stepper motor system will run more smoothly along with less resistance than a conventional stepper motor setup. As a closed-loop system provides both feedback and control so the closed-loop system will not lose or gain steps.
In addition, a closed-loop system has the advantage of higher torque at low RPMs, higher efficiency, almost zero standby noise plus various other benefits. However all this does come at a cost and complexity, about 3 times that of a conventional Stepper Motor System but a lot less than a full Servo Motor system.
There are many articles related to the differences so I won’t continue except to direct you to a couple of good links.
www.motioncontr...
blog.cnccookboo...
HI Graham I appreciate that these videos are now a few years old, just one question as I can't seem to find anything in the descriptions on your web site, what is the travel on the Z axis?. Cheers
Hi Z Axis travel is 110mm
Wow very nice arrangement of wires good design too.
Thanks for your good description and the links that you gave , i whish that every body do the same
Thank you for commenting and you are welcome :)
Hey! Thank you for your video, i'm planning a similar upgrade. As far as i know mach3 does not support the hybryd motors, right? So if the stepper loses a step, it compensates the error by itself? Mach3 doesnt know anything about it, right? What happens if you try to move portal by hand (forcing an error) while running a program? Will it return by itself?
Correct Mac3 does not support closed loop steppers or even servo motors it does not have to. Each Closed loop stepper include its own controller that takes care of everything independently of mach3. If a motor misses a step or comes up against some other force it will correct that error or at least do its best to. However if for instance it hits an end stop of some other strong resistance it can not overcome or correct it will signal an alarm that can be wired back to mach3 causing an eStop shutting everything down. Ever since I have installed these Closed Loop Steppers I have never had a machining failure that I would contribute to missed steps. I have had a motor force an eStop due to my own error. So to answer your last question, yes you could force an error with your hand while the machine is running but it would take a significant amount of force and then why would you do that unless by mistake and probably having the machine stop would protect you from serious injury.
Cheers
Graham
love how clean your setup is
Thanks for taking the time to comment :)
You make me like cnc and make my own cnc router just a copy of your router ... thank you Graham
You are welcome Mohamed and thank you for your comment :)
Graham you deserve to be thanked for being my cnc first teacher and for firing my passion about cnc
Hi Graham, just want to know why you prefer to use your CNC router more than your CNC Mill. I've built a CNC router based on the C-Beam Sphinx Router (from openbuilds), but I think I need a more rigid machine since I'm mostly machining aluminium. So I'm thinking of building another CNC machine but still can't decide whether to go with your design or convert a milling machine. Thanks..
My CNC Mill is a small Shirline with lots of modifications however it can only handle small sixes maximum 100mm x 150mm. That's why I built the router, it can handle 580mm x 400mm, I mostly use this for machining Acrylic, occasionally aluminium, so it is plenty good enough for that. However when I have a small part and need the best accuracy I use the Shirline for that. Routers due to their design and construction will never have the rigidity of a commercially manufactured milling machine. Thanks for your question.
What kind of tolerances were you getting with the open loop system? I’m curious because I’m looking into upgrading my steppers which seem to lose and gain steps constantly. Even after fine tuning them and running them at the settings for optimal torque.
Sorry Andrew I did measure at the time but that was quite a while ago and I cant remember. Anyway I have found the Closed Loop Stepper system to be smoother and improved. However if I was to do it again I would look closely and consider ClearPath Servo Motors. Not sure of the cost comparison though.
www.teknic.com/products/
Hello, i have made a cnc frame 40 x 60 cm wide with v slot aluminium profiles, have mounted 16mm rods and bearings and a router trimmer. Wanted to ask: for this cnc frame size and 16mm rods and bearings: 1. what thickness of lead screws should i use (would 8mm lead screws work well) and 2. which is the smallest stepper motor that i can use ?
has the power suply been strong enough for the 3 motors ?
i was advised to use 3 350w 36v 9.7A or 2 500w 36v 14A powersuplies for 4 closed loop motors and drivers (2 steppers for driving the Y axis )
initialy i figured i would be ok with it but it would take up a lot of space in the housing and prolly create quite a bit of heat as whell
i like the way you got it to fit in a reasonably small housing with just that one power supply
might go with one as whell but prolly use a 36 volt version
Hi Graham! Awesome stuff! I was inspired using your build to build my own CNC machine. Thank you for that! keep up the good work.
Ivan Matasić thanks Ivan I appreciate you letting me know that.
@@hamrx8 can you 3d print on this machine if you swap out the spindle?
@@toroddlnning6806 3D printing is not something I have ever considered doing with this design. I opted to purchase a dedicated 3D printer for that purpose.
@@grahamham3398 Ok, but you should theoretically be able to somehow swap out the spindle and use the same axis for 3d printing?
@@toroddlnning6806 Yes in theory it is possible and not saying it couldn't be done, I just have no reason to do it.
Hello, is it necessary to use the RS 232 cable for programming the driver or not ?? Thank you very much
I believe so, well at least back when I did it. If you only have a USB port you can likely get a USB to RS232 adapter interface. My computer just happened to have an RS232 port.
Do the motors run cooler than normal open loop steppers?
It was some years ago that I did this and the comparative running temperature is not something that I took notice of. What I do know is that these motors are quieter and I am getting better accuracy. In fact today I machined a circular spacer from 1.5mm aluminium and the ID and OD tolerance was within 0.01mm. From what I remember that's better than I ever achieved with the original steppers. Swapping the motors was well worth doing.
Btw how are your rapids under load? I am considering these motors for a new build. My ACS606 gave me good 600rpms with 180 watts dc brushless servos (5mm pitch screw giving 3000 mm/min rapids) the machine was made from cast iron weighing about 300 kgs.
And motors were powered with a 24v power supply. Rated at 36v they could have given me better rapids.
How are your rapids? I am quite impressed with leadshine.
@@jasminderization Being a small machine I have never set the rapids beyond 1800 mm/min. Mostly they are set to around 1400 mm/min 90% of the time I am machining acrylic.
Hello! I have a closed loop stepper motor. Its normal a noise from the motor, like when we start an older computer with windons 95?
I run Windows 7 and there is no motor noise, whatever version of windows would not be reverent regarding stepper motor noise. All I know is that my closed loop steppers make no noise at all unlike standard steppers.
Those hybrid units don't have loss of step function in Mach3 . They only stall the stepper through the driver
Never had a loss of step with these, they are great.
How have the hybrid steppers worked for you the past year? Would you use them again?
I have found the Hybrid Steppers to work really well and would not go back to normal steppers. Next time I would strongly look at ClearPath Servo motors as they get lots of excellent reports. Just not sure how the costs compare.
@@hamrx8 clearpath cost a lot more plus a lot more labor time . If you are able to mill accurately within .001", I don't know if you would even bother with clearpath . I have steppers now and it only gets within .012" accuracy. I am installing a closed loop and driver on the Y axis to see if it makes a big difference with the same hardware and electronics now .
just wanna say ..... AMAZING WORK !!!!!! :) while i'm tryinng to make a DIY drill press huh ! (hope to see your new CNC machine soon) you win one more subscriber !
Thanks, really appreciate comments like yours.
Really like this setup. Would like to know more about the controller you used and the closed loop drivers you are using.
Cant really telly you much more than what is already in the video, it was a few years ago so the kit I purchased is not available today. However following is a link to the store I purchased it from. I understand they have more up to date components these days. I do find that the closed loop steppers are a lot better than the original steppers I first had on the machine, well worth the upgrade. I hope this is of some help.
www.ebaystores.com/vipwindows-168
Well done sir very useful
Thank you for your comment and very pleased you found this video helpful.
Hi hamrx8!!
This Driver can handle the AC voltage?!?!? Iread some manual and i saw ac30-70 or dc20-60V Is correct?
I have big toroid trafo with 50 V-- AC 1KW
I am sorry I don't fully understand your comment or question. However Iis specified for the HBS507 the power voltage requirements. It requires DC voltage not AC. You should forget the toroid transformer and get a switch mode power supply.
thx the fast answer-- misscomunication :S sry just look your driver.. is hss507
Love it. Very clean machine and nice upgrade. I think I need to do something similar, but I think I may have missed something - did you say what stepper motors you upgraded to (make/model/supplier/etc.)? Also would like to know what you upgraded from.
Thanks!
The motors I upgraded to are 573HBM20-1000 Closed Loop Stepper Motors with HBS507 Hybrid Servo Drive.
Purchased from Chinese company FASTTOBUY Email Service@fastobuy.com
Purchased as a complete 3 Axis kit including WiXHC Mach3 Motion Card and Power Supply.
I replaced standard 263oz-in Nema Stepper Motors.
Hi i have bought a cnc machine with servo motor , can you please share the mach3 configuration " motors steps per - vilocty mm per min- acceleration mm per sec , please help thanx
I regret I am unable to help you with that as it depends on the servo motor specifications and your Y-Y-Z axis drive system type and its specific specification. It would be best to ask the people you purchased the machine from. Sorry I cant help you with this.
@@hamrx8 ok thanks for your reply
You can now buy BST ac servos for the cost of closed loop steppers and enjoy the benefits of high torque and rpm.
What is the link for BST servos, didn't find it searching?
@@m3ride1234 looks like bs to me
hello friend, congratulations for your beautiful CNC, this drive has to configure current and micro steps too?
Yes. There was a program I used to set up the steps but it was a while ago and I cant remember what this was now without going back into all my documentation.
hamrx8
Couldn't you make a video or show how your drive configuration was, I have a CNC router with the same characteristics as yours, and I want to configure it with the same parameters as your drive, if you can pass me the settings, my email is engmecwagner@gmail.com thanks for your attention.
Do Hybrid steppers close the loop at the motion controller or the driver?
Sorry I am not sure but I would think the Driver. Never really investigated the technology behind them. Only that they have a feedback system to correct and keep them in step. As aposed to plain steppers that could go out of step without correction.
Did you added limit switches to your machine ?
Yes I did, nothing sophisticated just simple micro switches purchased from a local electronics store.
Very nice machine!
Thanks 😀
Which spindle moter u used sir
There is no brand name on it so all I know is that it is a VFD 1.5KW Air Cooled. I purchased it on eBay around 7 years ago.
He Graham i have the same set.
Great stuf.
i was wondering how can u use motor feedback in mach3?
Closed Loop Servo/Stepper systems are a function of their connected controllers. It is not a function of the MACH3 program.
Nice upgrade, but that being said I am not sure why anyone would go this route nowadays over something like Clearpath servo motors, way more speed and torque, closed loop and does not require seperate drivers. That will be my upgrade path from steppers on my CNC. Yes they are expensive but arguably not that much more than closed loop steppers.
Mark Slatem I agree and it is probably the way I would go next time. Plan to build a totally new machine in the next couple of years.
Once bitten by the CNC bug, it becomes a lifelong obsession. I am in the process of building my second machine, took me ages to design the machine in Fusion 360. I got a job lot of 80x80 Misumi extrusion so all being designed around that.but in theory will work with any type of 40 series extrusion. Got all the parts just need to find someone in Melbourne to waterjet cut the front and back plates for me. Here is the design if you feel like critiquing it :-) take.ms/xWYMk
Oh I totally agree, it is an obsession, and I still remember contemplating building my first machine all those years ago before I actually did it, I still get excited watching it operate. Even now I am apprehensive about embarking on my second one, probably next year. Anyway I don't know if you realize it but I live in Melbourne as well, Mooroolbark.
Oh nice, I have been out to Lilydale a few times last month, thats close to your neck of the woods. Yeah CNC stuff is still like magic to me as well. I also want to build a CNC milling machine, I am toying with the idea of making it out of epoxy granite. I remember seeing your great sign making videos a few years back, I am surprised you have not graduated to linear bearings and rails yet. Do you find the fully supported round shaft sufficient for the stuff you do?
My current router was conceived and built quite a few years ago and to this date it has performed superbly, with all the recent upgrades. The accuracy and performance is still beyond the requirements of my projects without fault. At the moment I don't see any need for linear bearings to upgrade it, might as well build a totally new machine and that will likely happen in a year or so. I do also have a CNC MILL with MultieTek Servo Closed Loop motors but rarely use it these days in favor of my CNC Router. The mill is good for really high precision components but currently I don't need that, honestly I probably only turn it on once a year. However it is nice to it on hand. Most of what I make these days are multi panel edge lit LED signs.
How do you wire these motors to driver and computer?
I purchased all the motors, drivers and PS as a kit so it came with wiring diagrams. I am also an electronic engineer so also had all the tools and knowledge. If you have a friend with a knowledge of electronics they would be able to help you wire it. It will vary depending on the motors and drivers you choose so my wiring might be quite different to what you need.
hamrx8 so motors go to the driver, then driver to controller and controller to computer, right? Which controller and control software did you use? Also, what kind of cable connects to the computer, just a regular USB cable?
The video shows all the components, the part numbers are printed on each component. It connects to the computer via a standard USB that came with the kit. I purchased the kit on eBay. I use MACH3 software.
Hey, what's the VFD for? Thx
The VFD is to power the Spindle Motor. This is original from when I first built the machine and nothing to do with this upgrade.
Only Works with mach3?, I want conect to arduino
Likely you can but I know very little about Arduino so cant positively say one way or the other.
You could use an Arduino using Stepper Motors but I prefer Mach3.
I prefer LinuxCNC
Something I must look into one day as part of my next machine build.
your cnc diy great !
Nice and clean assembly. Have you considered the ClearPath servos from Teknic?
Thanks for this and I was unaware of CleanPath Servos. I have since found their website and these look really interesting also a good price. Worth keeping in mind for the future. I am sure there will be more advances in the future that will render stepper motors as we know them today obsolete.
Graham Ham I have them and I will mount them on my router with the MASSO CONTROLLER from Hind technology from Australia
I look forward to any comments you have when you have your router up and running.
Ciao potrei avere descrizione in Italiano
Come potrei avere i prezzi di queste macchine
supimpa
Like it
It's too bad the picture slide show goes solo fast people like me with poor vision fight to see anything
Sorry for that, I will remember for next time. In this instance I can only suggest clicking pause for any images you need to study in more detail.
ClearPath Servo motors
Yes i know about ClearPath but at the time I did this upgrade in 2017 I chose this option.
Please data.step iges x_t ?
Thanks
Hello,
I saw that you are very skilled in CNC machine and I have one problem with which I struggle.
I made a CNC on which I use 12 NM closed loop stepper motor.
This is a Arduino Uno GRB version 1.1h machine . I used UGS to control the CNC.
My problem is that after I set in UGS a work position zero, I move the axes and I hit "return to zero" button. The machine goes to 0 on all axes but it is a difference if I compare it with the zero that I set as work position. Could you help me in this situation.
You can see the problem in the link : ruclips.net/video/dplTqfFh4Wc/видео.html
I forgot to mention something.
It is possible that I modify the switch position for stepper during the time that the driver was on. Could this be the problem? Could I damaged the drivers?
Hi. As I have no experience with the software or about your machine there is not much I can really advise as to what your issue might be. Sounds only that it might be something mechanical but as to where to look regretfully I cant help or advise, just to say look at couplings that might be slipping or sloppy. I only say that as that is the only issue with mine I have had with my machine in the past a fractured coupling that was not obvious or visible to look at. Cheers.
Is dis router mill steal
I built this Router myself. It is only suitable for Wood, Plastic and Aluminium. For Steel you really need a CNC Milling Machine not a router, ther is a big difference between the two.