Closed Loop Stepper Motors for CNC machines
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- Опубликовано: 3 мар 2019
- CNC closed loop stepper motors aka hybrid stepper motors. How are they different from stepper motors used in most hobby CNC applications and 3D printers?
Nema 34 Motor and Controller:
China Warehouse - www.banggood.com/custlink/KG3...
USA Warehouse - www.banggood.com/custlink/K3K...
Nema 23 and other motors - www.banggood.com/custlink/mKm...
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Thanks for watching!
#steppermotor
#cnc 
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What would you do with a single NEMA34 Closed Loop Stepper? Leave a comment and let me know. Thanks for watching!
Quick question I’m looking to build a mpcnc or a low rider Cnc. Could I replace the typical open steppers for the closed ones on these machines?
Electronic indexing rotary table for a mill or CNC. Something that big will have plenty of holding torque for a lathe chuck, and the feedback will make it very reliable.
Use it for hobbing gears, drilling holes etc etc
if you only have one motor how about a tapping machine?
@@youngswoops It's not designed for it, but yes you could. the electronics setup would be up to you
How about a auto pilot for a boat? Hook it to the rudder on a sailboat and let it plot GPS coordinates to get you from point a to point b.
If you had two units I'd suggest lathe control.
absolutely amazing introduction to closed loop stepper motors. Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
i'm working on a parts list for a cnc router and i'm planning to use closed loop nema 23's. this video was very helpful in understanding how they work. thanks a lot for posting
Glad it helped
basic need mesa card controll all input/output,old paraller port not handle many input. then need lot expensive motor drivers, and then steppers whit encoder lot expensive than normal motors. lot waste money.
Build the 4/5th axis with it that's a perfect use 👍😁
Just to correct some terminology. A "Hybrid Stepper Motor" has noting to do with being closed loop, it is a type of stepper that is effectively a cross between a "Permanent Magnet Stepper Motor", and a "Variable Reluctance Stepper Motor". Hybrid Steppers are the type that most people are probably familiar with.
Adding a feedback (AKA closing the loop) effectively turns any motor into a servo motor / system. While servos are typically made with BLDC motors, they need not be. A servo motor is just a motor with a feedback mechanism. Hobby servos used in the RC world are typically brushed DC motors with a potentiometer used for positional feedback.
WOW!
That's extremely well explained.
Cheers Mate!
Thanks for watching!
I was shoping for stepper motors and came across the term "closed loop" I was not sure what a closed loop stepper motor is untill I watched this video. very well explained
thanks
Glad I could help
Making stuff up!
I built a PCB mill back in 1998 with steppers with encoders. I wrote the control software in VB6 and after each move, I had the code check the encoders and make minor positional corrections. If a deviation was over a certain valut it would halt the machine. It's cool to see this hybrid with the encoder and intelligence on the hardware level. Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
Very interesting. Thank you for your time
Thanks for watching!
GREAT video ... thanx !!
Well done sir keep going
that is damn impressive !
Nema 23 is fine for plasma I believe. I want to build a dual table though. Plamsa and cnc milling machine. So the power to drive the spindle whilst its carving steel is nevessary.
Tanks very useful.
Very informative thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
this saves me sooo much time and try and error... and finding the stuff only to find out.. that this is a nice feature- for robots or so. but not for my small 23er setting.
🕉 thx and over and out.
Your explanations was very clear, tha nks👍👍👍👍👍
Glad it was helpful!
Trinamic TMC2130 drivers have most of the closed loop advantages, but are still open loop. But I think the TMC2130 Drivers are linited to NEMA17.
Thank you
Thanks for watching!
good info
Dear friend, I saw your video and thank you, you were very understanding and finally the closed loop is the new technology
I wanted to ask you something very interesting because I do not use CNC technology only for movement in my machines lathe mill, etc., I can drive the engine with these new machines as I do with the simple steppers with pulse generator thank you very much .
Very well explained
Glad it was helpful!
Very helpful stuff sir thank you very much
Thanks for watching!
You can do this to normal stepper motor just add an encoder..for the driver thats the tricky part..but i think it samples feedback and looks for error..incase of error it rectifies
Love your cat
Hello, nice explanation. What about an optical scale? Is tandem of simple stepper and scale will work same way for mill? I mean adding steps to keep instrument in exact position?
There are limitations to hybrid systems, like quite limited RPM under load. If you need a motor that can be run with large RPM, lots of power and can also be moved accurately like a stepper, you need AC-servo motor which is VFD driven AC motor with optical feedback.
They are the real workhorses of any CNC where they can be used for everything including high speed spindle motors, that can also move in sync with other axes of the machine with very low RPM's but can push out kilowatts of power. :)
Depending on what stepper driver you have for the open-loop steppers... you can...to some degree... know when you have lost steps- like a TMC2130 with StallGuard2. It does not know how many steps were lost, but does re-home and continue.
Thanks for the info.
Good video. Just a clarification - the encoder doesn't tell the controller that it missed some steps. It merely reports the shaft angular position to the controller and the controller makes the determination about the error in position and makes an adjustment using some kind of closed-loop control algorithm such as PID.
Great point, thanks for it. That was what i was looking for.
Just a question, If pid or some kind of controller involved in Hybrid servo driver, where can i see the PID parameters, or can i change these PID parameters with the sofware ?
I’d build an electronic lead screw for my metal lathe.
Magnificent 👌🏽👍🏽👌🏽👏🏿👏🏿🔥👍🏽👌🏽👏🏿
Thanks!
Normal stepper drivers set the current as well, the reason hybrids run cooler is they don't need to assume they'll be under full load when not turning, normal steppers have to be held at full current to brake them, with an encoder the current can be reduced until the point the encoder says WHOA! the motor is moving, at that point the controller can ramp the current back up to just enough to hold it in position so the brake current in most cases is far lower for a hybrid stepper, if a hybrid stepper is under full load it'll get just as hot as any other stepper.
A forth axis setup might be a good use of this kind of motor.
Keith Sogge yes I like you comment this exactly what it needs to be a fourth axis setup.
Hello,
Can we use servo motors with the duet boards?
Thanks
I like your good work
Thank you so much 😀
"Stepper motors" are actually just many-poled synchronous motors which can be driven like regular synchronous motors as well. The only difference is that they don't have an encoder built in, so you can run them in closed loop if you put an encoder on the output shaft. The big drawback is that most cheap controllers (like the RAMPS-based ones) don't allow for any encoder connections, so you need more sophisticated controllers to make that work.
Also, synchronous motors can be run closed loop with a method called sensorless back-EMF sensing, which would also work on regular stepper motors. The idea is that the controller will monitor the undriven poles of the motor to see if there is any induced voltage and if there is, it means the motor shaft has moved, so the controller can adjust accordingly (or conversely, check if there is any movement on the undriven poles and re-try when that doesn't happen while it should.)
Kind regards from Colombia.
Thanks for sharing.
Could you tell me what the SW6 is for or what its function is.
Thank you in advance for your valuable time and sensible response.
Health blessings.
Frank, consult, I have 3.2 amp stepper motors as I can regulate the current output with this hybrid controller. And by default with how many micropasses this hybrid controller comes. Thank you for your support.
hi with the closed loop stepper motor to go on a plasma cuter you will have to put the driver box next to the motor or could you extend the cable to your main electrical box ?????
Awesome video man this really helps me because I didn't you could program the controllers for these, I've got a set of nema23's running on my CNC now and I'm finding they are too sensitive and go into alarm mode too early.
They cable is hard to find, but yes they are programmable. Thanks for watching!
I would use it for my robotic arm project
I like the looks of the size of that larger stepper motor, those others look like they would be wimpy on power but I have not gotten a machine built yet to know. I'll see if I can think of something worthwhile you can do with that one.
I am thinking about using these to rotate the steering forks on a ridable robot. Do you think this setup could be executed reliably? Or do they have errors a lot?
Hi, great video. I was planning to make a camera slider sort of thing but for the old big 29 inches CRT TVs. What combination of a motor and micro-controller should I choose? I want the slide to be silent while moving and move slowly. Thanks !
Great video and explanation. Thanks for it.
Just a question, is PID or some kind of controller involved in the Hybrid Servo Driver ? If so, where can i see the PID parameters, or can i change these PID parameters with the sofware ?
You should build a rotary axis for the plasma table using the big 34.
Yyyyyyyeeeeeeesssss
@13:29 That free swinging vice grip shows me that a counter balance on my Z axis is a very real requirement and not an option!
Very informative video. Thank you.
Use for a single motor? Pump up the amps and make an arm-wrestling robot - get it to error state to win. Oh yeah, small disclaimer.. it will break bones so you might want to consult a lawyer before taking it to the local school fete.. :)
which one is best for making a CNC milling machine , servo motor or closed loop ??? because I do not see any difference between them please can you make me deiced because I want to build one and I am confused with that.
Hi. I'm changing my stepper motors for hybrid. I'm wondering about the pulse per revolution. Is it the same as normal step per revolution? On one stepper i have 64.147 step per rev. Should i set the same pulę per rev. ? Thank you
I need to buy 3 nema 34 closed loop steppers. I want to hook them to the centroid acorn board
I'm assuming you can step this motor using an Ardunio controller. I just ordered this motor along with a CL86T stepper driver and 48 volt 10 amp power supply. I am making a soda can crusher using this motor. I tried using a NEMA 23 stepper motor and having problems with it stepping back to zero because of slippage.
I have that same motor. I would use it as a 4th Axis. Mount a small chuck directly to it.
Change the spindle motor on my smaller CNC lathe to do accurate threading
I think that rs232 port is a standard cisco cable. should be easy enough to find one locally.
Hello can u explain how to invert the direction of the motor so that 2 motors can be on the same axis using NEMA 34 and hsb860h driver. I mean detail wiring
Hi Bob. Another great video, thanks. Aren’t you able to replace any of the other motors on the plasma table with this one. And then perhaps make new motor mounting plates at your leisure.
I am planning on using motors like these in an upcoming project. But, Yes I could make new motor plates on the plasma table.
Hi Mate,
I am going to carry a steel pallet (overall weight of 700 kg) over rollers with 2 stepper motors on each sides, do you reckon "Nema 42 CNC Stepper Motor Bipolar 30Nm" is enough for this application?
More!
Hi, what's the max torque and speed un DC mode?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think those are actually servo motors which are made to operate like steppers by the controller. Servos are definitely superior, but controller cost has been a limiting factor in the past.
it is a stepper with a servo controller, they have more torque but can't run as fast as "real" servo motors
Lasse Langwadt Christensen It's also not as quite as a servo motor.
I have the same HBS 57 on the same side as the dipswitches are 3 pin serial connector for configuring the driver and there is supposed to have corresponding software. can you please tell me the pinout of the 3 pin serial and a link to the proper software? I have looked everywhere with no luck!?!??
so if it has an error and doesn't hold its position, when I mount it on the Z axis, will the spindle drop?
Hie man I just received my stepper motor just like yours in this video I'd like to ask about the feedback signal connection to the plc I'm usind a dvp20sx2 delta model plc
I have a NEMA24 HYBRID SERVO SET 33KG-CM W/T 80V 7AMP DRIVE RS485 MODBUS COMM. I want to run the motor and control it specifically using an Arduino board but when I give the connections it is not running. My connections go from an SMPS to the two-phase servo drive. the encoder wire from the motor is connected to the drive and the same with the motor terminals. But the motor is not running when I try it like this. Please if possible could you help me out a bit.
Let's build a CNC router. i actually have a 6'x4'x5" marble that i was thinking to turn to a router. i sometimes need to machine big plates and i always have that problem. if you want i can post pictures.
I have the same motor and driver (12nm and hbs860h driver), I wired them up correctly and everything worked fine until I disconnected the encoder and my driver burned out immediately... I have no idea why, do you? Btw. You inspired me to make a cnc router, thanks.
I know some drivers will burn out if you disconnect the motor while it has power. Not sure if these will do that. I always make sure the power is off for several minutes before disconnecting any motor. Thanks for watching!
What would it the point of using a servo now if we have this?
The alarm could stop my GRBL machine, but it would be tricky to recover and start again at the same xyz location to continue.
How u do this
if it triggers the alarm ur part is already ruined, point is to save the bits and time
I want to know what you did with the tuning software once you got the cable. That is what I want to see. Literally no one has posted anything about tuning and results delivered afterwards. PLEASE POST A VIDEO ABOUT THIS!
most people defo failed at it and the machine moves in weird arcs :) closed loop systems tuning takes a lot of time
@@chronokoksno it doesn't :) servo system takes a lot of tuning and they are always closed loop (can't work otherwise).
But a closer loop stepper system doesn't require any tuning to function (just the same or even fewer settings as compared to an open loop stepper).
Closed loop steppers are always stable, they are steppers and not servos after all.
i wanna use nema 23 closed loop stepper motor to build a robot using arduino with ramp 1.4. Is that possible for servo driver connected to ramp 1.4. Im looking for your answer! thank you
you have some real skills. I can tell that you do not have any formal training in this area but if you did you would be a real force to be reckoned with.
Have you got any experience with the G540 Geckodrive ? What would you recommend for a stable system Geckodrive or chinese closed loop kits ? I am about to make an upgrade and it's hard to take decision.
Thank you.
I'm not familiar with the Geckodrive. The closed loop motor works well but is nema34 which is too big for my plasma table. I have not had any issues with the open loop drivers on the plasma because the torch does not touch the workpiece like a CNC router would.
Hi. I ran out of 18 AWG stranded wires for the motor A+ A- B+ B- connections. Instead, I used 14 AWG stranded wires for it. Is it okay? Thanks for the reply!
I need high torque stepper motor and high speed? From where I get this motor
Hi !
How to get out from the alarm mode ?
give it a pulse on the enable pins ?
That's a good question. I was just killing the power to reset it on the video.
Hello, is it necessary to use the RS 232 cable for the safety of the CNC machine to work with the Mach3 program or is it only used to show the values? Please help and thank you very much
I don't use Mach 3 so I don't know.
Hey thanks for this, Yes please as much info you can give. Would love 3 or 4 of those.
I'd love to have 3 more of them too:) Thanks for watching!
They are almost 3 times the cost to get them here where i am at 3 would cost like $1100!@@MakingStuff
Do the closed loop have a faster speed with out errors? I am running ballscrews with regular steppers on my cnc plasma and can only go to about 65 ipm before I get a missed step and it stalls the motor. My ballscrews have a 5mm pitch, I should have gotten higher pitch. I have tried to tune the motors a million different ways but they still skip steps above that speed. Any ideas or settings that I could possibly be over looking?
Yes I'm pretty sure that closed loop can go faster. I haven't done much with this one because I only have one motor and it's too big for my machines.
Ques... what are the advantages of having a gear reduction system installed ewww ad of just direct drive with a spur on the motor and the gear rack? I keep getting a loss of steps on my nema 23 motors and idk if I should upgrade both motors on my gantry to nema 23 closed loop stepper motors or if it will help if I have a gear reduction system with a spring tensioner. Any advice?
I've been told that 3:1 gear reduction is the sweet spot between speed and torque.
Does gear reduction help with loss of steps? Or would switching to closed loop stepper 23 motors help? Or both? What would you recommend.....its for my plasma table
@@MakingStuff so do you need a computer to program these in order to set everything when you get them or can you just go and wire everything up and your good to go? Can you make a simple "how to connect " video?
So what is pulses per rev actually doing? Say you set it to 800 pulses per rev...what does the motor do if you only send 799 pulses? Does it define the angular resolution. So for 800 you have an angular resolution of 360/800? Thanks
I saw a guy using a stepper motor to power feed his mill on the X axis.
Great video , I am going to try upgrading and older CNC machine , after watching your video I will be checking out the closed loop set up sounds like it might be what I need . Do you think a NEMA 23 would work , anyway thanks for the great info .
It just depends on the application.
I'm in the process of making a cnc plasma table, Can i have closed loop on one axis and open loop on another axis or do they need to be all the same
I don't think it matters if you mix and match.
I want to build a cnc plasma like yours with closed loop steppers .can you please tell me witch breakout board can work with this in cnc plasma?
I really like the Mesa 7i96 board. It has enough i/o for all the electronics and the THC.
building Arm robot ok?
I like yout cat in the basket ;)
That's Angel. She doesn't like to get up on the work bench, etc. If she did I would have her in more videos.
if it was me I would replace a duel y system with the bigger motor and an axle to keep it straight
Whats best way to keep both axles in sync?
Build a comfy armchair with it that can adjust itself with a button!
What size cat did you use for this video?
Check out uStepper. It actually watches the rotation of a stepper motor (using a magnet) and will compensate for missed steps. Works with Nema 17 and 23 stepper motors. I've been considering getting 2 of them, one each for X and Y motors on my 3D printer.
Could you please show how to use the nema 34 as cnc spindle?
Wouldn't make a good spindle.
Hello Bob, Correct me if I am wrong, to insure I understand you did you say that the NEMA 23 2.2N.m motor is the best to use on the plasma cutter than the NEMA 34? Also it would take three motors to control the x y z axis? My table I am building is like yours. The work area is 4' 1" sq. which will allows me to put a 4' sq. metal with the 1" extra to allow me to place the work piece in/out and center the metal in the work area.
Not necessarily the best. You can use smaller motors on a plasma because the cutter just floats in the air above the work piece, unlike something like a router the has to have the cutter moved through the work piece.
@@MakingStuff - Thanks for the reply. PLEASE bare with me. I am new to this CNC/Electronic stuff. On the NEMA 23 motor driver one of the cable port on the driver it was said that they are hard to get and is needed to program the motors. In your CNC Plasma Upgrade you updated to four Phase Stepping Drivers.
So these four drives will operate all four motors, correct?
Two motors on the Y axis -one on each side of the table to move the gantry, correct?
One on the gantry (x axis), correct?
One to operate the ball screw (z axis), correct?
The MESA 7I96 is the computer board that is programmed to operate all the axis?
What does the 4 channel rely board do?
What motors do you recommend for the xyz axis? Please provide info
Thank You for time and again I am trying to understand this CNC/Electronics.
Are there bigger ones? I couldn’t find any quickly. Thanks for making me aware of these,
www.banggood.com/custlink/KmmDz9D4h8
Making Stuff thx!
ok... I don't know if you installed the hybrid yet but if you did, I have a few questions.
1. did the hybrid upgrade talk to your mach3 or your pc software and change your x.y. movements on your accordingly?
2. would a mpg pendant work with this setup? if so would it talk to your pc and change your x.y. movements accordingly?
3. what is the cost for the upgrade from your setup? I believe we are gonna be using the same size of motors (for my Bridgeport upgrade motor replacement)
thx for the video.. it was very informative for me.
Can't answer 1 & 2. Answer to #3 is here www.makingstuff.info/Projects/CNC_Plasma_Update
use it to drive a small model makers lathe.
Fist of all, congrats for the video. I have a simple question, can you help me please? I wanna know if I can read the position of the encoder in a PLC, for example. In my project I need to set a home position without a external sensor. Thanks, and congrats again.
I have no idea how the encoder works internally. I would start by hooking it up to an oscilloscope or logic analyzer.
Itˋs just a simple encoder powered by 5V putting out A and B as a differential TTL compatible signal. The pinout is documented in the datasheet of the motor. I hooked up the motor to a simple stepper driver and the encoder to the input of my mesa card letting LinuxCNC doing the control loop. The encoder does not provide an index (z) signal so for homing/referencing you will have to use some sort of external endstop.
hi I'm using the same engine, attached directly to a rotary table, I can't configure it well on mach3 can you help me? thanks
I don't know Mach3
Any chance of going into detail about the electronics, specifically going through the Mesa 7I96 and Linux CNC setup?
Maybe. I've had a lot of requests for this.
normal used mesa card and linuxcnc support have better than all others.
06:54 I live for the moment you get this cable and make a video, because I decided to do this cnc-project for school ... have to do some fifty pages of documentation ... and I'm just welding the mounts for the ball bearings now - and everything should be ready in two months :-/