The trigger guard test was done for appendix carry. Rumor has it most FBI agents in the 80's would become hard as a rock the second they slid a .45 ACP handgun into their pants, sometimes crushing the trigger guard.
Pretty sure the trigger guard test was requested by the ATF, to check how well the firearm would hold up in the case that the agent had fired all of his ammo and needed to beat someone's dog to death with his firearm.
In 1990 I chose a SIG P228 (basically the same as the P226) for my duty gun for plainclothes duty and it served as my duty gun for the next 19 years, finishing out my 36 year LE career. I didn't know about the trigger guard issue. I never beat my trigger guard with a mallet. I know, weird. 🤷♂ Never had a problem with the trigger guard caving in on the trigger, though the gun did get dropped a few times. I still have the gun. It still works perfectly.
The trigger guard test was based on a real life incident where an agent used his firearm as an impact weapon while fighting a suspect. The suspect was struck with a handgun that had an aluminum trigger guard. It deformed and rendered the gun useless. In an attempt to correct this they came up with this test back then. Not sure it's still used today with the advent of impact resistant polymer and previous test results.
7:20 "I would just as soon believe that you saw hickok45 kick-flipping down the street in a durag with a massive blunt dangling from his mouth as I believe that any Glock ever would have one malfunction in every box of ammo..." This is more than memorable. And the comment from @hickok45. Really made my week.
Having worked for a gov't agency. I can assure you that they knew what gun they wanted before the test started. And that the test results would come out in favor of that gun regardless of actual results. Add: Johnny B. "Stay on the ground!" Love J.B.
Exactly. It's not a coincidence that Sig recently won the contract for sidearm, optic, and service rifle. I've shot a bunch of Sig stuff, good firearms sure, but there's no way in hell they honestly won all three contracts. Edit: I also forgot they also won a contract to supply ammo to the military for their service rifle. Cha-ching baby!
@@SuicideVan I was surprised as hell sig beat glock in the handgun tests. Then inmediately they had to basically recall the m17 because it would go off if you dropped it. I'm thinking sig is paying some people for these test results.
I went to work as an FBI agent in 1988. At the time, Smith and Wesson Model 13 .357's were general issue. HRT was carrying Browning High Powers and the SOG and SWAT teams were carrying Sig P226's. Semi-auto's weren't even authorized for regular agents, but a lot of us carried them as back ups. And, it's funny, I already owned an AT-84 (really just a Swiss made CZ75 clone) when I was hired, and that was my "gym bag gun" (what we used to call them) . The theory being, you would empty your revolver, and if there was still a threat or gunfight going on, you would just pull you "gym bag gun" and continue on. The idea being, that if it was a good shoot, using an unauthorized gun wasn't really going to matter, and it was a bad shoot, saying, "But, I used my issue gun" wasn't going to save you. Later in late 1988, they did authorize Sig P226's and some Smith and Wesson Semi-autos, and I bought a Sig P226 through a mass buy by the Agent's Association, for $425 if I remember correctly. Funny story is, my partner and I were sent to Fort Worth to pick up about sixty P226's for the agents in the Dallas office. The guns weren't assigned to any particular agent at that time, so he and I pulled over to the side of the road on the way back, and opened every box and compared the test targets and picked out the two guns with best target groupings for ourselves!) Later I sold the AT-84 to a friend in another agency, but I wish I had kept it. My son has that P226 now. And, I'll tell you in two words why the .45's got such high praise in that test. "John Hall". John Hall, who later became the head of the FTU, carried an unauthorized .45 in the FBI for years and the first thing he did after becoming head of FTU was to authorize .45's. More than anyone else, Hall brought the FBI into the future (sometimes too fast) when it came to handguns.
@@p1b1harper , I think in retrospect, a two-part agency system, with, the FBI doing investigations, but the Marshals required to actually make the arrests, might have been a better way to go.
So was you also told by a FBI director that the founding fathers, & us patriots that had a founding father fight in the Revolution, that they say we're domestic terrorists? I've heard them bastards teach that shit to field agents! The FBI are traitors for raiding us *NON PHYSICAL VIOLENT Americans homes to disarm us over petty ass, repugnant, unconstitutional laws or statues they are following- Marbury vs Madison 5 US 137, 174, 176. They are the domestic terrorists our founding fathers warned us about.
The "second and third gen" Smiths were extremely popular with law enforcement agencies back in the 1980's. My dad was the Chief Deputy for his Sheriff's Department in the late 80's and he did all the procurement stuff when the department would get new guns. Because of that, he would also usually buy a few guns directly from the distributor at cost and he kept them locked up in a vault, untouched since the 80's. He never fired any of them. S&W revolvers, Colt Pythons, and yes, "second and third gen" Smith & Wessons. I actually think that my dad owns the first production S&W 4506 ever made, which was the replacement for the 645. It has a serial number of "0000", but I can't remember what the prefix is. Those guns have three letter prefixes before the numbers, so there is a chance that he just has the first gun in that prefix batch, but it is definitely an early, square trigger guard, non-dash 4506, and the four numbers in the serial are definitely "0000" because I remember how shocked I was when he showed them to me in the late 90's or early 2000's. Actually, the funny part is that he was shocked too. He never paid attention to that kind of stuff...he just bought the guns and put them in his vault and he will likely never take them out again until he dies and I inherit them. That's just how he is. I tried to get him to call S&W back when he showed me the gun to see if they could confirm that it was the first production 4506 ever made, but I don't think he ever did. When I turned 21 he gave me the 4516 that he bought at the same time as the 4506. The 4516 has a serial number under 0050 and it actually IS one of the first 50 production examples of the 4516 ever made because I checked it. So I'm almost certain that the 4506 he has actually IS the first gun to roll off the production line. I've always loved those first, second and third gen S&W semi-autos and I always will, even if they are "obsolete" by today's standards.
That's a very cool story and great collection. I ordered a 4506 as my first handgun and I still have it. It came with the square trigger guard and adjustable sights. Very cool gun that that carried around my area by the police until they adopted the Glock 21.
@@rdh5961 Yeah, the "third gen" S&W semi-autos in particular were extremely popular with law enforcement in the late 1980's and throughout the 1990's. I'm sure it was probably because pretty much all of the law enforcement agencies had carried Smith & Wesson revolvers for 60+ years and when they all started transitioning to semi-autos in the 1980's, buying another S&W product made sense. S&W probably gave them good deals on the guns as well. That's actually how my dad ended up with the 4506 and 4516 in the first place. His department was transitioning from revolvers to semi-autos in 1988 and that just happened to be the year that the 4506 and 4516 were released. That was two years after the 1986 Miami FBI shootout and that event really was the catalyst that moved ALL American law enforcement agencies away from revolvers and into semi-autos for good. The FBI handgun evaluation that is the topic for this video took place in 1987...the year after the Miami shootout...and the next year, 1988, was when many police departments (including my dad's) started making the move from revolvers to semi-autos. The rapid and widespread adoption of semi-autos was specifically because of the 1986 shootout and the release of the final reports from the FBI's studies on "stopping power" and "semi-autos vs. revolvers" to law enforcement agencies nationwide in the 1987/1988 timeframe. Those FBI reports made it clear that revolvers were totally obsolete in law enforcement service.
@@johnnytyler5685 what a great story and thank you for sharing. I can also attest that the 4506 would never have the trigger guard damaged from impact. That thing is built like a tank and just as heavy.
As a handgun instructor in the norwegian military (wich adopted the G17 in the late 80's), i have to point out that the problem with a failure to lock back when empty, is in fact quite a signifigant problem when you are training thousends of troops. Because of that problem we have to train all norwegian troops to presscheck the chamber, whenever done fireing (Empty or Target down). This procedure is not due to safety concerns on the range, but mostly due to field experience. I think this can be compared to the problems of having an external safety on a gun. It's not a big problem, but its's the kind of training you would rather have your troops spending on aiming- and trigger-control. However, i want to point out that i am not a glock hater! All tho i have chosen a different handgun for personal reasons, I think the glock is optimal for military use, becaue of it's simplicity to learn and handle, along with it's durability and price.
Yours is a salient observation. I have the same issue with simply dismissing failure to cycle problems caused by "limp wrist". It is solvable with training. But in the field someone could have an injured hand, be extremely cold, fatigued, or all of the above. A design less subject to human error is simply more reliable. This is true of dozens of pistol design tradeoffs. It seems a human tendency, once a set of features is accepted, to then become cannon and dismiss or overlook the accompanying compromises. It is difficult to remove all subjectivity.
@@artfulalias3984 The thing is, just about any lightweight polymer framed 9mm is going to have issues if you limp wrist it. It's in the nature of the design.
@@UrbanDefenseSystems That's exactly the point. Once the advantages of a particular design, like light weight polymer frame 9mm striker fired autos are weighed against the trade-offs and accepted, its human nature to become vested in that choice being the best. The tradeoffs become unchallenged assumptions in "how things Should be". If they cause a problem its not viewed as a design problem that might be solved with engineering. Rather it Must be training or the individual or etc... I'm not suggesting militaries regress to steel frame revolvers. Only that its more rational to remember and pass on the knowledge, in order to gain these advantages, such and such tradeoff was made. This design is better for one mission. Another design is better for a different set of priorities.
@@artfulalias3984 I don't disagree. I'm more so specifically pointing out that the Glock itself is not necessarily the only gun that limp wrists. Which it seems many people seem to believe.
@pandabanana2593 Perfection... You can't tell anyone about a problem that got addressed... Because then you have to admit to not being perfect... I guess.
I think the Department of Energy can reliably be counted on as an expert in nuclear arms. and their office of secure transport guys are absolute boss about fending off vehicle interdiction
My college roommate joined the FBI after he left the military. In keeping in touch with him over his 15 yrs in the FBI he shared a lot about the training and they actually do know their shit really well and train hard...at least the field units he was at in the mid-west did. Probably the typical situation where at the unit level they are phenomenal but at the higher/hq/DC agency level they are a bureaucratic nightmare. Same situation we had in the military...things get stupid in DC but are good as you get to the units.
I dunno, it mightve been (if it had been the other way around) I'm picturing, "crap, our agents can't hit anything. Let's give them .32s Acp instead of 10mm!"
To be fair the few times they did make hits the bullets performed pretty poorly. Handgun calibers are pretty lame and inconsistent though until you get into the full size magnums.
I have carried my Glock 27 since 1996 and it has never failed to go bang or lock back after last round. The Glock issue was due to limp wristing. Too many people are not aware of how important proper grip is when firing a firearm. Semper Fi my fellow Citizens.
I am new to handguns and decided on a Glock 48 mos for my EDC. While I love my 48, I have had three malfunctions in roughly 1500 rounds (all with one particular box of ammo) that were attributed to limp wristing. It concerns me because I believe that in a real world situation you may not always have an ideal grip regardless of training or technique. I believe that this issue is mostly due to the low weight of polymer handguns which is a benefit for EDC.
You started using Glocks nearly a _decade_ after this FBI test. You have no qualification to speak on what caused the failures the FBI noted with the early generation Glocks submitted for testing. Besides, sergeant, "limp wrist" Glock holds don't account for disintegrating magazines (in the magazine well).
I feel though that a gun should be a bit more forgiving for limp wristing. I've seen quite a few badge cams (policeactivity/codeblue) where officers get shot and run away wounded and then their glocks malfunction and get killed trying to clear the weapon. There were 2 last month on policeactivity of 2 wounded officers dying trying to clear their gen 5s. It kind of sucks that if you are wounded and not at full strength your weapon wont work.
FYI- the Ruger P89 was issued by Wisconsin State Police & San Diego PD for years. No doubt more field service than the 1006/1066/1076 ever saw. That said, my trigger time on a Raleigh, NC PD 1076 left me impressed. It was, however, a brick. Great shooter with "FBI loads" though. The entire test was an exercise in fuckery. Beretta, as it had since 1976, showed the superiority of the 92 series.
I still have my P89, had it for years. I love that firearm. Absolute tank. Fun to shoot. I’ve only carried it a few times. I generally carry my S&W Shield.
"I would just as soon believe that you saw Hickok45 kick-flipping down the street in a durag, with a massive blunt dangling from his mouth, as I'd believe that any Glock *ever* would have one malfunction for every box of ammo." Pure poetry.
I'm old enough to remember why the FBI was so desperately looking for an improved handgun for their agents. In 1986 was the infamous Miami Shootout where poorly armed FBI agents got hurt bad by two bank robbers. 2 dead and 5 wounded. I'm surprised the maker of the video didn't mention this.
The FBI in 1986 blamed the Win Silvertip 9mm for its lack of performance but today tout the 9mm as best 🙄.....The FBI went on to get the .40 going and now recants back to the 9mm. I was a 6 year Officer in 1986 and we were pounded with this incident. As it turned out, that Win Silvertip performed as designed and it was the tactics (ever heard the audio tape of the incident?) of the Agents that was an issue! I spent 4 years at DHS with various retired Feds, I wont follow any of their training!
The reason for that debacle was they didn't hit the target in the first place. 2 agents had 9mm pistols with 12 to 13 round capacity which they shot 2 times each that means 48 rounds at least but hit the target only 1 time why? Because at least one of them lost his glasses. They had the report that the suspects are adequately armed with shotguns and semi-automatic rifles and had committed multiple robberies, assaulted and stole 2 vehicles which resulted in one murder and one attempted, not to mention one guard killed during the robberies. So they knew that the suspects had both the firepower and capability to do violence. So why did you stop them so inadequately prepared without any heavy firepower like submachine guns like Uzi used by Secret Service or Mp5s. Even if you didn't have those at least have speed-loaders and moon-clips for your revolvers and have backstrap and extra sets of glasses on yourself. More successful intercepts which resulted in shootouts like in the case of Dillinger or Bonnie and Clyde had LE personnel who were heavily armed. So in conclusion marksmanship is paramount, followed by movement to get a better position to return fire and be adequately prepared before entering the situation.
@@TakNuke William Matix was killed after being shot six times......Michael Platt was killed after being shot 12 times. Both were hit multiple times and continued to fight. "toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths" .........I was 6 years into my 40 year LE career when this happened. We heard the original audio of the Agent's radio traffic and anything else that was available...The Agents displayed a terrible mindset and bad tactics as well. Matix and Platt were mentally ready for a fight and fought until their bodies quit. The FBI blamed the Winchester 9mm Silver tip which by their own current standards performed as designed. Winchester was pissed and you don't hear their name in this fight anymore..... " one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt's right lung had collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood (hemothorax), suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this wound was the primary one responsible for Platt's eventual death."....The FBI said the 9mm was not enough and went on to develop the .40....THEIR TACTICS were a huge a problem and YES, maybe the 9mm was not enough to stop determined fighters .......Now the FBI wants to go back to the 9mm again but nothing has really changed other than some bullet design which will be INSIGNIFICANT.......the 9mm wasn't enough then and it wont be now! Im still carrying a .45!.......and choose when and where to fight (but there's a rifle in the trunk!)
@@TakNuke I agree with a lot you said here. Heavy firepower certainly wasn't invented during the 80's, but I do know that this firefight directly caused the FBI to experiment with 10 MM pistols. High capacity handguns were pretty uncommon back then. A 13 round 9MM sounds like a Browning Hi-Power.
"You're under arrest, but maybe we can work something out." God, you even nailed the hypocrisy of the FBI (really anything under the DOJ) in this intro.
Kansas Department of Corrections used the Ruger P95 when I stated my career there. The SORT team were issued these, while Ruger GP100's were for other armed officers. The P95's were a huge liability in incidental mag drops and the transitional triggers affecting accuracy. During my tenure as Armory officer, we moved to Gen 4 Glock 17's.
When I was in the Sheriff's Dept for 8 years I was issued a Beretta 92F which had already been in service and was close to 25 years old already by the time it got in my hands. Man what a great handgun. I am sure before they gave me a 25 year old gun they replaced springs, firing pin, etc. on it, but for being that old, the gun performed amazing. I shot thousands of rounds through it during my career. Loved it so much I purchased my own M9A1. The last year I was in, we switched to the M&P9. Great freaking gun as well, tons of ND's though throughout the dept, especially by the cops that had been on 20+ years and were not used to not having a safety and DA/SA trigger. I liked the S&W MP9 so much, that even after I left I purchased several of them, including the 2.0 versions. I gotta say though, I still enjoy shooting the Beretta more. We were not allowed to carry Glocks as they were not on our approved list at the time, but I have shot many of them. Great guns, super reliable, but just don't like the ergos on them. In my opinion this study was biased as hell, and Glock, Beretta, and Sig should have been the top 3 no question.
Yo, when are you retired officers or other officers going to unite with us to fight these traitor bastards? It's going to have to take men like you, ex servicemen, & ex SF guys to lead the way. AND WE WILL FOLLOW! WE NEED ANOTHER AMERICAN REVOLUTION AGAINST THEM, THE ATF, THE CORRUPT DOJ, & DOD. The DOD ran by that CRT Indoctrinating, pushing POS general Milley!
Those Berettas aren't necessarily the best guns out there, but they are TANKS! I have a 96 Centurion I bought ~15yrs ago from a police equipment store. It was supposedly an officer's or detective's duty gun for years so no telling how many rds have been through it before me. Never been a huge fan of .40S&W, but I've probably put roughly 1-2K through and haven't done a single thing to it (several types and brands) and it just runs. Nitpicking, it could probably use a new recoil spring (or entire spring set) and maybe even a barrel to squeeze out the best accuracy, but I'll likely run it until it fails (which it hasn't yet to my recollection except maybe a return to battery). Big deal, it's a range toy and EDC option if/when other preferred calibers are unobtainable.
24 years on the Police Department. Over those years, as a gun collector and cop, I carried several of these particular guns, or at least a version. When I began policing, of course we were issued revolvers, smith 19's. I purchased a M1911A1 plain old milspec and replaced the 19 because I was an old soldier and carried it in Nam, loved the old pelter. Still have one. Then I purchased a Smith Model 59. Not bad but I didn't really have a lot of faith in the 9mm, I guess my old military training. One day I picked up a Glock 19 and carried it for a year or two. Not bad but it was 9mm and again I guess if I could blast 18 rounds of 9 I figured I was well armed. No we didn't get paid for shit back then so when it came to wanting a Sig 220, the price kept me out of that market, but back then Astra made a clone and I bought one. The Astra A100. I carried that for the rest of my time on the PD and loved everything about it except for the weight compared to the Glock. I shot better with it, usually topping the list of qualification scores probably because I was an avid re-loader and shot thousands of handgun rounds from several old handguns and almost as many .223 rounds from my Cold AR-15 and Ruger Mini-14's. I was also an avid deer hunter my favorite deer gun was a Remington 700 in 25-06 for the long range shots on the open prairie in Western North Dakota. So my top from this group would be the SIg in .45ACP. But that's just me. My experience with the Smith 59 was based on the original model which had a very gritty DA trigger that I simply hated.
Someone I knew carried a Sig P220 in .45. He got in a few shootouts with 8 round mags and changed fairly quick. Good firearm, but reloading can get you killed.
Sounds like you actually did your job and trained. You likely could have topped the qual scores with a snub nosed revolver with the time you put in. Some cops don’t touch the trigger until a couple of days before their qual exam comes up.
@Jonathan Nieve I respectfully disagree. Not too many people would say the P226 is obsolete. I own a Glock and a West Germany Sig P226. I would carry my Sig first. It has been through thousands of rounds flawlessly. The P320 series…. That is a different story, but it’s hard to say the P365 is obsolete though. It created the very idea of high capacity micro 9s.
When I started policing way, way back, I had a Browning Hi-Power (and still have it). A coworker had a SIG P220 .45 and was retiring. So $100 a month bought me that slightly used, almost new pistol. Like you said, they didn't pay squat back then so that's the only way I afforded it. I shot that SIG so much it finally developed some accuracy issues so, broken hearted (LOVED that gun) I swapped it for an H&K USP .45 ... then got issued a Remington-Rand 1911 the Army loaned my dept through their DRMO program. Then we went to issue guns and I got a SIG P229 followed later by a SIG P226 (that I was given when I retired). I can remember attending various firearm training by the FBI, including a basic SWAT course. They liked buzzwords like "subsonic" and "tactical" and such.
I have run a couple of thousand rounds of various types of various types of prime and junk 9mm ammo through my Ruger P89 and have never experienced a failure of any type. I don't know if the P89 is better than the P-85, just that this has been my experience with a comparable pistol.
I have a P-85 that I purchased new when they first came out. I've only put about a thousand rounds of various manufacturers through it over the years, but I didn't experience any issues at all. Never had a problem ejecting the magazine. It was mentioned in the video that they had a problem with the decocker. Shortly after I purchased the gun, Ruger had me send my P-85 in to have the decocker replaced with a revised version. Don't know if the FBI's problem led to the revision. Never fired a P-89. I have a S&W 669 and a Sig P225 that I purchased a couple of years later. Never had issues with either one. I will note that I haven't put thousands and thousands of rounds through any of these so take my comments with that in mind.
Fascinating study! And thank you for the effort, the tenacity, the dry humor, the sarcastic wit, etcetera that is James Reeves. Fun stuff and they absolutely got it way wrong. P226 legion all the way baby. I can put 30 rounds in a two inch circle at 10 yards-all it takes is a little trigger and support hand control. Best Regards James.
About the Glocks being unsafe on their test, I can almost say with absolute certainty that your summation is correct. When my Department of Energy site switched us from P226 DA/SA's to Glock 17 gen4's somewhere around 2015, we were on the line for "familiarization fire," and 2 old-heads to my left and right let a round go into the dirt several feet in front of us on the draw because they were staging their triggers. Scared the shit out of both of them. They later criticized God's Plastic for being "dangerous," while I contended they were the unsafe turds who violated the second General Firearm Safety Rule. "Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target... Unless you don't feel like like it or something." Always great content, thanks boys!
Staging the trigger used to be a thing on old Sig’s with that mile long pull. It’s hard to get the old guys to break bad habits (they were bad habits that were taught)
Yup. Same thing happened when the LAPD switched from Berretas to glocks. Bunch of NDs. So of course you get the same, "See? Glocks are dangerous" from the 1911(or whatever else) fan bois online. My response was the same as yours: It doesn't show that the glock is 'dangerous', it shows how the safeties/decockers/long and heavy first trigger pulls, etc. on these guns mask poor trigger discipline/safe handling habits.
The Department of Corrections I worked for used to use the Ruger P series, and holy crap. They were garbage. We had guys having de-cock levers flying off during regular range quals.
After over a decade of flawless performance, I did eventually replace the extractor and lighten the trigger pull on my 89dc. i gave one son the 89dc and other the P-90....Also, HAD TO get those Hogue grips. Huge difference!
Who said that wasnt the point... you want to buy a gun for your agency, you dont want to buy complete crap, but you also want to buy something your people will like/accept. You also have to justify your buy to the bean counters. So you design a test with enough play that it lets you justify what you want.
@@link10909 you even have to do this shit in the private sector. It’s a classic tactic to procure what you need because giving too many specific requirements makes it too easy for leadership to nitpick every detail
I know the man who did all the testing for LASO. He tried to get S&W to make a couple of changes on their weapons but they refused. Their stubborness cost them the contract. LASO's initial order was 12,000 Berettas.
The 1st automatic I bought, and the only one iv kept all these years, it will never leave here , my absolute all time favorite , iv never actually had to use it , but it will be my go to if shtf
The M645 is the only gun on that list I don't own and have never shot. Having said that, if I had to choose just one gun from the list, It would be the SIG P226. I own 2 of them and although they are on the larger side I have never had a single issue with either one. Accuracy, reliability and trust mean a lot. Great video!
I carried the S&W Mod 645 beginning in 1988 but replaced it a few years later with the Glock Mod 21. I loved my 645 and still have one today, but the G21 was a much better gun for work, at least in my opinion. I still have it too.
AR state police rocked the G21 for a long time, packed with golden sabers. We have the Lonoke, AR Remington plant here. Gotta support your local boys. I run a S&W M&P 45c myself.
@@kaig453 I went to get the 21, but handled the lighter 41 with the MOS cut and ended up getting both. I really like the lighter weight of the 41 and I got a KKM 10mm conversion barrel to try something different.
I loved the 13:25 Paul Harrel coat of infinite holding. This was a great video and an excellent look into the well-intentioned, but flawed, methodologies used in that testing. Not to mention it featured some lovely hammer-fired semi autos.
I have shot competitions for years, averaging well over 500 rounds per week. My first handgun was a Glock 19. I had a little over 23,000 rounds through it before I had a malfunction. Trigger return spring broke. Yes, I had plenty of times the slide did not lock back when empty, but it was always my thumb on the release that was the cause. I switched to a Glock 34 for competition and have shot over 100k rounds without a failure.
😂😂😂. 23k and 100k no failure. This is why so many operators hate glock because people like you. You just saying this makes me feel like you've never shot a gun in your life.
@@chrisjtal21 you realize the actual pistol of the real "operators" is a Glock 19, right? Im not rreally a fan boi but I was sitting at an armorers course with about a dozen socom armorers who stated there was no way they were going to the P320.
In the aftermath of the 1986 Miami shootout, I tracked the FBI testing with interest. I also polled a few of the agencies in SoCal that allowed .45 ACP pistols. There was good reason for a guy to want a .45 at the time. The 9mm ammo of the era genuinely sucked, which is sort of what kicked all of this off, and gave us he 10mm, and eventually, the .40S&W. Fortunately, the advances in bullet design have elevated the performance of the 9mm to be more or less the equal of the .40/.45, so it really isn't an issue any more, but there was a good reason for it, then.
9mm at the time was not any worse in actual shootings than the 45ACP. It always had roughly the same performance. The new ammo technology has improved the performance of both rounds.
@@wstavis3135: Meh. Evans and Sanow had a significant body of data at the time that appeared to support the "big bore is bitchin'" perspective. It was precisely the failure of one of the most advanced hollow point designs extant during the Miami shootout that spurred the FBI to look at cartridges with better penetration.
Wow! By far one of the most fascinating comparisons I’ve watched on RUclips. I really enjoyed the no distracting rock band background music, the fast paced no Bravo Sierra discussions, and uncovering some real facts about human bias and government politics.. The results of the testing stats are eye-opening. It is brilliant analysis.
James, you totally crack me up! Your comedic scripts, sarcastic delivery and timing are world-class! I hope I'm not the only one here who appreciates it.
I was a “Sig guy” back in the late ‘80’s to late 90’s. In that time there was no way I would own a “plastic” gun, until the summer of ‘99, when the G23 would be my handgun of choice, switching to Glock 9mm’s in 2011. I’m pretty sure FBI agents felt largely the same way about those “plastic” guns, back in ‘87. I’m just surprised that when all of the guns showed up for testing, that they didn’t dump all of the 9mm’s and simply tested the Sig P220 vs the S&W 645, and called it a day, lol.😎✌️
I felt the same way back then. I carried a SIG P220 or a Colt LW Commander for a while and felt well armed. I really wouldn't consider a Glock when they first got here. Then I got a G;ock 23, and set about trying to break it or make it jam. It wouldn't do either. I had some buddies who were still "all SIG, all the time", and when one of them started spouting off about how superior the SIG was to the Glock, I'd say, "Well there is one thing your SIG can do that my Glock won't", and they'd eagerly say "What is that?" I'd reply "Rust". That got me more than one dirty look but at the time it was true. Like you I ended up with a Glock 19 that I went to for both on and off duty in 2007.
This comment is for U TUBE : Why do u continue to ask me for a reply but then u only allow it to stay up for a few minutes , or else u don't post it at all ☹️
Glock beat all of them in the most important category, with that being price, thus it became one of the most popular handguns in the world. All this BS about reliability, durability, accuracy and parts availability became secondary to price
Got them all except for the Ruger (my S&W is the 645). I've gotten stupid-accurate with the G17; I used to loathe Glocks. “My only love sprung from my only hate!" -Shakespeare ( when he wasn't as drunk as I am now. lol )
I’ve owned and sold a lot of pistols over the course of 26 years, and the one I kept is my trusty and proven Beretta M9. After firing thousands of rounds, I’ve never had to replace 1 single part on it with the exception of refreshing out the old magazines.
@@Quantiples HK makes some really nice firearms as well. I really enjoyed my USP 40, but eventually switched over to 9mm for pistol and 5.56 for my rifles to keep some standardization and simplify ammo purchases.
I just recently picked up an old 92S for $365 and I was amazed by how nice it is to shoot. I hate double action triggers personally, but this old Beretta is one of the best I've tried.
I would guess the striking the trigger guard was done to test its durability as striking someone with trigger guard for compliance was probably common practice. The Marines Berretta m9a1 has a beefed up trigger guard for this exact purpose
I'm not a Glock fan boy and i still refuse to believe they failed that often. I don't own one yet simply for not having one yet. Their reputation for reliability is well known and earned through quality.
I have only seen Glocks fail like that when the person was severely limp wristing it. Put 250 rounds through a used G48 with cheap ammo and never had a single hiccup, stovepipe, or slide fail to lock back. And I pushed that hard in less than a half hour range time. (Only using one mag, so that is firing 10 rounds and reloading 10 rounds every minute.) Having multiple people fail that badly with separate glocks seems like it was forced, or the people were not used to any striker fired guns.
I own a gen 3 19 and its my favorite handgun I've ever shot, just barely beating a Glock 17 long slide and a Beretta 92fs. Never had a gun induced malfunction through several thousand rounds even in an adverse marine environment. I carry it at work and even after years of abuse and almost daily exposure to saltwater it has yet to start corroding. Even with +Ps and +p+ it has very little recoil for how small it is and is quite accurate for only having a 4" barrel. It makes my gen 5 g26 look like a piece of crap lol I highly recommend the gen 3 17 or 19
Also not a glock fan. I got a 17 as a fishing gun (no attachment to it if I lose it what ever) that said I shoot it a lot, like a lot a lot. The cheapest shittiest ammo money can buy and I’ve had about 4 problems in thousands of rounds one was I think the gun because the extractor wouldn’t catch the case and the the case was fine. Everything else was ammo or magpul glock mags. Not sure how or why they had so many problems.
Most likely what he said in the video, the agents were probably riding the slide release with their thumb preventing it from locking back on a empty mag. Took me a little while to realize that my shooting hand thumb was resting on the slide release on my gen4 19
I would really love to see a modern rematch using the same tests. Throw in your gen 5 Glocks, M&P 2.0, Sig P320, and I'm guessing the whole reason Ruger was even tested was for there to be that budget option for low-funded departments, so in the spirit of that I'd say throw in the Ruger Security 9. Would be cool to see how the brands stack up now in one big test. Or maybe I just wanna see the Security 9 redeem Ruger in some capacity because it's actually a decent gun that no one really talks about. Lol
Yes, but it was from ITM a Swiss manufacturer that made very high quality CZ clones that were used by many special police and military units of that era (including Israeli). It is possible that the FBI tested a sample of the Sphinx systems CZ clone from a partner Israeli LE Agency. IMI later produced their own CZ clone called the Jericho 941. In fact, they still make CZ clones today.
No, the IMI AT84 from Israel doesnt exist. The *IMT* AT84 does exist. That's literally what he said in the video too, it's a Swiss made cz75 clone. The ones brought to the USA were riddled with qc issues as they were basically built from Tanfoglio parts and sold as "swiss" precision (they werent).
Years ago, I got a Glock 17, brand new, out the box...first time on the firing range, it wouldn't take hollow points (jammed up), it didn't like reloads (I know, many pistols don't) . A month later, I had a "hang fire" malfunction. I traded it in for a HK USP...no problems with THAT weapon
Sadly, a fella that has had that exact same problem with every pistol ever made can be easily found which had not stopped so many from buying 2 or 3 from every manufacturer.
The more I've learned about 80s gun trials, I'm continually shocked the Sig P226 didn't win the Army contract, as well as this one. It's just such a solid gun.
I carried a Cocked and Locked 1911A1 in the Coast Guard. I also went to Gunsite and trained with a Cocked and Locked 1911A1. One of my shipmates brother was a Police Officer in California at the time. He was shot by a bad guy with a single barrel sawed off shotgun. He was 'knocked out' . The perp took the Officer's on-safe Beretta 92FS. The perp tried multiple times to shoot my friend's brother in the head. Fortunately he was unable to disengage the safety. Back up arrived and started CPR and were successful. We received training from the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center at our Group. We learned of more incidents like this. In which Officer's lives were saved by on-safe guns. So I continue to carry a Cocked and locked handgun either a more modern Colt Government model like the XSE models, a CZ75 or even slightly customized Browning Hi-Power. But I've always liked the Sig 220 and 226. Some Feds carried them. As soon as I saw the SAO P226, I bought one! I put Hogue G10 grips on them as the factory wood grips would flex when you used a firm grip. Finally a Sig I can carry! I like it! But the CZ75, Hi-Power and Government model feel more natural in my hand. Go ahead and get the Sig 226 SAO! Carry it Cocked and Locked after lots of practice. 🍻 cheers
James, this is first time I had seen this study. I started my police career in the early 1980's and started out with a S&W revolver, transitioned to a 1911 and then bought my own S&W 459. Never new of it's capabilities under the F.B.I studies. I do know that I carried it in SWAT for many years, and it worked flawlessly. I still have the gun and will take it out to test it against my Glock 19 and 17 and, the Shadow systems. Thanks for your info
8:20 Once is obviously ok, but repeatedly chambering the same round in an AR isn't a good idea. The International Wound Ballistics Association's Dr. Gary Roberts, who serves as a consultant to many law enforcement agencies in the matters of service ammunition, cited an OIS incident wherein one officer's rifle failed to fire. An investigation determined that the cartridge failed to ignite because it was repeatedly chambered and unchambered over a period of time, which eventually deactivated the primer. For this reason it is SOP in some agencies to have any round that is unchambered from an AR-15 (or any other gun with a free floating firing pin) relegated to the training pile instead of being reused as carry ammo. I would post the link to where Dr. Roberts mentions this but YT likes to hide comments with external links. Look it up among his pinned posts in either pistol-forum or m4carbine if you're interested. TLDR: Repeatedly chambering the same round in an AR may cause that little indentation to deepen to the point that the round will no longer fire.
@@gunnermurphy6632 My pleasure. FWIW, I've attempted to intentionally deactivate a primer in this way and was only successful using an AR with an extra power recoil spring and even then it took a few dozen cycles. Still, the fact that there's a documented incident of a failure happening just makes it a good idea to play it safe
James, You have to remember that back in the 80s when this test was done Glock was NOT using Steel Reinforced Magazines and they were pronned to malfunctions and that is why Glock redesigned the Magazines with the Steel liner which increased reliability. The Sig P226 and P220 Pistols are Great but you have to remember that back then the front part of the slide and was welded on and the slide was folded steel not the Milled out single piece of steel that they are today so the pistol back then were not as accurate as the ones today. The Ruger P85 had way too many issues and that is why Ruger went back to the drawing board and released the P85 Mark 2 and short after that the P89 was released which was a Quantum Leap forward in the Series! I agree with you that Ruger P Series Pistol were very Reliable I had a KP-90 that I purchased shortly after they came out and was a very trusted pistol that I carried and shoot many IDPA matches with from 1993 to about 2000 and won many of them too. I have to disagree with you when it come to the SW645 because that is an EXCELLENT Semiauto Pistol that is Extremely Accurate and is Build like a TANK! I grew up watching Miami Vice and that was a pistol that was showcased after the Bren10 left the show and I was finally able to get a nice copy of a 645 that was born in early 1987 which puts it about half way in the Production life of the pistol. It is too bad that Smith and Wesson does not make all Steel Guns any more because they pistols like the Gen 2 645 and Gen3 6906 are great shooters and it would be nice to see what a Gen 4 all Steel Hammer style could bring to the table. I also own one of the Gen 3 TSW4006 40sw from CHP that I purchased when they first became available back 2015 and my copy came with the Exterior at 95% but the interior at 99.9% all I did was put a new set of grips because the rubber grips that came with mine were a little worn but the pistol is a shooter. I have replaced all the Springs on both of my Smith and Wesson Semi Auto Pistol and they shoot great.
@@masgreygoon YES it was! When I got my P90 and added the Wilson Combat Spring Kit it took the pistol to the next level in addition to taking a Stone and Polishing the Sear and Hammer engagement. At the time I was poor college student that also participated in IDPA League Matches and the P90 never failed me except one time when I broke the Magazine Release Spring but that could have happen to any pistol and it happen to my Ruger after about 30K rounds in less than 5 yrs of use. After that I made sure that to keep a few extra springs in my shooting bag. It is was really too bad that NO ONE in the Aftermarket made performance parts for the P-Series of Pistols because that would have made a good pistol GREAT!
Years ago I went thru a training course with a member of LAPD SIS. He used a S&W 645. The sidearm he used was an excellent firearm. I used my 1911. 👍😊🇺🇸
I put Hogue grips on mine and it feels and looks great. I really don't know why I haven't ever shot it other than I bought a gen 2 Glock 22 shortly after and started shooting it. I plan to take out the 4006 and burn some of this old .40 ammo I have and test it out. I love the feel with the Hogues on it and it does look amazing. It is heavy as hell though. I still want a 4506.
@@thejeepdude4578 I have been looking for a 4506 or the Upgraded 4506-1 which came out about year or two after the original but I saw a 4566 at my Gun Club a few weeks ago which is an ALL STEEL 4.25 inch DA/SA pistol similar in size to a Sig P220 but not as light unless it is the ALL Stainless Steel P220 5 inch 45acp or 10mm but I did take my P220 Legion 10mm Steel Frame and put my P220 45acp 4.4 inch Slide and the weight and balance was similar. The West Virginia State Police used a Tactical model that has a Frame milled Railed on their TSW4566 but only 500 pistols were made so they are hard to get. I have not seen one in person yet but I have a couple of friends around W.V. looking for me.
FBI chose the S&W 1076 (10mm) after the Miami shoot-out and as a result I bought a model 1026 (full size version). It cost me $385 with my FFL in 1991 and extra mags were $29 each. I bought 4 (gun came with 1). God I loved that gun! But I was young and dumb and eager to try new things and straight traded it for something I am too embarrassed to admit to. 30 years later and I have never stopped kicking myself over that trade.
@@branned specifically, female officers couldn't. When you add women to a man's job it devolves to their ability level. Like our military. And once you drop the bar that low, why not keep dropping it yo the next "special" group and the next...
@@branned Having owned both I can say the Berretta has a much larger grip. Also, there are notes from the FBI specifically concerning female officers inability to manage the recoil for secondary shot placement. It had everything to do with the round, hence the 40S&W or 10mm short- a face saving move; still technically 10mm. This info is not hard to come by.
@@grandfaultimperceptor Yes, I know that story. Heck, in Afghan would have carried the 1911 but the military likes small rounds to spray targets with. I like the 40S&W. I have never owned a 10mm. In bear country I just carry the .45 ACP. Not great but it's me....😁😁
Great video. One thing to remember.....in the '80s, hollowpoint design wasn't that great. You couldn't count on getting reliable penetration or expansion from HP loads, especially 9mm JHP. The .45ACP JHP had an advantage in unexpanded size, and any expansion it got was a bonus. Plus, .45ACP doesn't penetrate as deep in tissue as 9mm no matter what bullet is used. In that day, .45ACP was a better LEO round. Today, technology has changed that for the better. Also: Early Glocks were still working out the bugs. Slides not locking back on empty were common. And the triggers left a lot to be desired. Plus: The Ruger P85 was not a good gun. It had lots of issues that were addressed in the later P89, thankfully. The P85 almost kicked Ruger out of the service auto business. The P89 and P90 brought them back in as contenders. One more thing: The trigger guard test was important because pistol-whipping a perp was still a thing. Many a S&W revolver had crushed guards due to improperly PW'ing a perp. That's a big reason a lot of pistols from that era had thicker guards.
The trigger guard test was done to make sure they could handle hard hits as they used the gun to pistol-whip their targets when they were either out of bullets, or the target was not displaying deadly force cause.
The trigger guard slam test was mainly for the TAC team. It is for when they repel and land on a ledge or something. Most holsters back then where soft leather not like nowadays where you get issued a hard plastic holster that is very durable.
7:50 - I have noticed that with some aftermarket Glock magazines, if you shoot hundreds of cartridges at one session, the slide will start to fail to lock back unless you begin using magazines that are different then the ones you were using. I don't know how that happens, but it's been my experience that that happens. Probably wouldn't be an issue if you were in a real gunfight since you're probably not going to go through hundreds of rounds of ammunition and have time to reload the same 4 or 5 magazines while doing so.
Probably some temporary deformation from heat buildup, maybe some fouling or crud affecting the follower. Magazines getting worn out or damaged are the biggest weak point of any semi-automatic pistol.
I know you are a Glock Fanboy and that the FBI was biased back then. You have some very valid points about how skewed the testing was against the Glock. Me, personally, I just do not like Glocks or any gun with a 'trigger safety'. I like a solid, smooth-faced trigger.
I was just getting interested in handguns in the mid-80s and my first purchase was the S&W 645. All my gun freak friends were impressed with the smooth trigger out of the box and it is one I still have and probably will never sell. My next purchase was the P-85 which I got from a wild-life officer friend who moved on to one of the S&W 9mm models of the day. My main interest in the P-85 was it being Ruger's first stab into semi-auto center-fire pistols. Everything you ever heard about how horrendous the P-85 was is likely true with one of the worst triggers imaginable. It has been reliable and with some spring changes and a little polishing can be improved on but there are clearly better options. It's built like a tank and if you run out of ammo, it could make a serious dent in an attackers head. I suspect one reason the Glocks did not fare well in the FBI test was that in those days polymer frames were a relatively new concept and many simply didn't have faith in them. Polymer frames have since stood the test of time and those phobias have for the most part gone away.
The HK USP proves just how tough a polymer framed handgun can be. Glocks may be tough, but the USP is on a totally different level. The testing that went into the development of the Mk 23 and USP is ridiculous. It’s worth a read sometime. Federal also has a USP that is used as a test gun that has fired over 200,000 rounds without a parts failure!
The 92 was pretty much Marine proof the 8 years I was in , the amount of abuse those pistol took was ridiculous. I think it got so much hate was it wasn’t in gods caliber and the guys with little sister hands wouldn’t shut up about it being to big in the grip 🤣
I loved my M9 when I was in the desert (USMC veteran here too). She kept me company every night and would eat whatever scraps I fed her. She wasn't picky or high maintenance. Sure she was as loose as a lady could be after being passed around generations of barracks. But she was reliable as .... and would send the bullets where I pointed them.
The M9 is great, but the HK USP is even better in my opinion. I first shot one when I was doing marksmanship qualification with the Bundeswehr (Schützenschnur) when I was stationed in Germany during my time In the Army. I always shot expert with the M9, but it was amazing how much better I could shoot the USP (the Bundeswehr calls it the P8) than the M9. For my money, it’s the best combat handgun out there. I own and carry several different USPs to this day.
13.5 years city PD, 20+ years federal and counting....I had so much fun watching this video ! LMAO ! I can think back and attach people to the personalities you're describing ! Great objective look at things.
Bought my first Glock in 1988, with a letter from the Chief and a money order for $300 straight to Glock. They mailed the gun to me. Taught my self to strip out the non-drop fee mags. Everyone wanted to hold it and shoot it. In a few months there were now 6 Glocks. Then there were 10. Eventually, everyone had a Glock. Loved it and it never let me down.
The trigger guard test was most likely done because of people bracing their guns on door jams and such, and possibly if you did it hard enough then feasibly it could damage the guard and make the trigger unworkable
That trigger guard "test" was BS. The amount of force needed to bend the SIG guard was FAR in excess of what would happen in ANY scenario in the field.@@bunk95
Didn't the FBI do a huge series of performance tests on different calibers of pistol ammunition after the Miami shootout fiasco? That event shook their confidence in the 9mm round and led them to unofficially state "Any caliber is OK as long as it starts with a 4". Where they promptly adopted the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm. The 10mm was too stout in recoil and ushered in the .40 S&W which pleased no one.
Johngaither...the .40 S&W round hardly "pleased nobody"... it's an acceptably powerful accurate round that has successfully served dozens of L.E. Agencies for years & years...
Analysis of the1986 Miami FBI Firefight lead to a lot changes and improvements in law enforcement. You need to look this up no room her to correct all your errors. The FBI did not adopt the Colt Delta elite. After a lot of ballistic tests they choose the 10 mm with 2 different power levels. The pistol they adopted was the S&W 1076 with a decocker similar to the Sig 226. The powerful version of the 10mm was too much for many agents. But the lower power was developed into the .40 S&W. And for a long time the Glock 22 in .40 S&W became the USA police departments most popular gun
@@MiJaHa The 1066 had a lot of problems. Including not being able to cock them, jamming plus the size was heavy. Grip was too big for those with smaller hands. If the FBI wanted a Sig, then they should have had Sig build it. They end up switching to the S&W 4006 variants. I had a 1006 and a 1066. I got rid of the 1066 even though it had "all the upgrades to "fix" them per S&W. I never had problems with either. But I didn't trust them. Plus I started carrying Colt 1911A1s in 1980. I prefer the manual of arms on the them. I went back to my Colt Gold Cup. I also bought a Delta Elite and changed out the recoil spring system to one made by Kings. I prefer a SAO vs a DA / SA.
@@stever8776 Whichever model it was, I also never understood why they went with 10mm & then had it downloaded by Federal to .45 specs. Why not just go to .45 in the first place?
My dad is a USFAM, and they just switched from Sig P226 357 to Glock 19 Gen 5 and he has the same issue with the Glock that you mention, he keeps riding the slide release, he had to learn how to grip it with out hitting that while shooting lol
Unfortunately, I have the experience of killing four enemies with a .45 in combat in Vietnam. As a Marine I appreciated one round to the torso knocking them down at less than 20 yards. In civilian life, in law enforcement, I was forced to kill two armed individuals with a .9mm. I prefer the .45, but carry a .9mm Glock 48 concealed carry in retirement. At 72 I am still a good shot, but the recoil matters. The FBI, like most bureaucracies, is bogged down in details and committee decisions. If it were not for this chronic human problem the Marine Corps would still be carrying the M14 instead of the M4/M16.
Most of the issues with Glock malfunctions had to do with 9mm ammo not being as hot as the NATO 9mm it was built for. I carried the Glock 19 and 22 for 30 years as a state and fed. I retired as an FBI Special Agent and firearms instructor. If anyone does not believe the S&W did not have the fix in on that test, I have some prime swamp land in Florida to sell you. Many of the improvements over the decades for the Glock were made based on the FBI’s testing and recommendations to Glock. Even though those revolver guys poo-pooed the Glock in the 80’s, the FBI helped it to become the premier handgun in the world.
Glock doesn't authorize NATO spec ammo. It is higher pressure than the SAAMI stuff that the gun is built for. That is according to Glocks website as well as their manual. Also, if a gun can't shoot slightly out of tolerance ammo, isn't that a problem. Glock does sell MIL/LEO only models. I assume they are built for NATO spec ammo?
Let's see... I go back to when Dean Grinnell started his work on the Super .45 around 1975. 9mm was extremely limited in its "knockdown" power. Hollow points were unreliable. Multiple shootings with suspects taking multiple hits "in the bottle" and they kept on going. However, from actual experience, I did see a 125 gr .357 hollow point fall out of the leg of a miscreant onto the gurney, then handed to me by a paramedic. I did the on-scene initial shooting report and booked the bullet into evidence. It did open up as designed. My Department moved to .45 after poor results from shootings involving the 357. The 10 mm/40 cal was actually developed in conjunction with Jeff Cooper and the FBI (as I understand) not only from the Miami shooting. This involves the additional problem of female agents' inability to control the .45. Jeff promoted the .40 as the answer at that time. Back to the meeting with Dean Grinnell. My cousin and I (he was also a LEO) were attempting to find a bullet that would penetrate a sloped windshield (not deflect off) as well as open up reliably against a human There was no such thing in hollow point available. Working with Dean, we tested a large number of "hot" loads with Dean , who had just come up with his idea of a better .45 loading. The best all-around performance ended up being a 255 grain .453 lead Long Colt semi wadcutter moving at 1250 fps. The blunt nose and OD cutting edge would cut a .clean .45 hole. Paper targets/cardboard, water filled gallon plastic bottles, and large tomatoes all appeared to have been "hole punched" in testing. This meant the wound channel was an actual hole, not a wound in tissue that would "snap back" closed. What this told us was that attempting to get a hollow point to both open up and penetrate at the lower pistol bullet energy levels was not possible. Current day, the Underwood Super 45 xtreme defender 135 gr and 200 gr copper bullet cartridges work using the same principles as 255 gr wadcutters. In my opinion, 9mm still has the same issues of stopping power. The Underwood 9mm xtreme defender copper bullets use the cutting-edge concept used with .45 semi wad cutters.
One of the factors contributing to the problems with the Glock may have been the early magazines. I had a buddy who was the Kennel Master out at MCAGCC 29 Palms. He bought a Glock 23 as soon as they were available. The 2 magazines that came with it were absolutely terrible. The early mags were polymer only. No metal liners. When you loaded them to full capacity, they'd bulge out and you had to fight to strip them out of the mag well. Later, when Glock redesigned them, the problem disappeared.
In fact, the FBI testing notes list magazine failures as one of the critical issues. The issue you and the FBI report describe was indeed a problem of early production Glocks.
Part of that was that the DEA start issuing Glock 17's around 1991, and they use the same firearms ranges, cleaning rooms, armory, as the FBI. So the FBI got to see several years of field testing of Glocks by their next door neighbors at Quantico. In fact the first Glocks bought by the FBI, were just piggy backed on the DEA contract with Glock.
My three: -Sig P226 in 40 S&W with Short Reset Trigger(SRT) and Action Enhancement Package(AEP). -H&K USP40 LEM with LEM Light trigger spring kit. -Glock 23 Gen5 with McNally trigger assembly and Ameriglo night sights.
Well my three when I didn't mind the extra weight. GP100 in border patrol holster, model 60 in crossdraw holster on left hip, NAA mini revolver in my pocket. Back when I was still on patrol I carried a model 28 converted to 44 spl in my border patrol, a 1911 in a shoulder holster under my jacket, and Sterling 380 in my pocket. Lead sap in a special pocket on the uniform pants, and a pig sticker in my boot. I could not bring myself to give damn about what the FBI thought, even in the 80's we considered them a pariah.
I'm not buying the results from the P85. I have one that I bought in 1988. In the entire time I've owned it, it has had 1 single malfunction and that was magazine induced. The first 200 rounds I shot out of the box, without cleaning it, were lead reloads. The gun runs like a champ. Not a tack driver, just decent accuracy. I later added a P90 as well because the P85 worked so well.
I don't know about the 85 but I've had an 89 for many years and fired several thousand rounds through it. It was pretty well used when I bought it, too, though I have no way of knowing how many rounds the previous owner(s) put through it. No parts have ever failed on it and reliability with any ammo I've tried has always been excellent. 🤷♂️
I'd like to know how they found more than one Ruger that would fail such a test. Ruger has a matter of course generally requires all their semi-autos that they designed 25,000 rounds without cleaning without any malfunction before they even release it to be sold. I happen to know a gentleman who helped them design that pistol, he's a master gunsmith and although you could find some ammo that the Ruger didn't like, when you had ammo there work well it was almost impossible to make it fail. You can also judge by the number of times you've ever seen one being repaired
Massad Ayoob spoke very highly of the Ruger P-series. They're not the prettiest or the nicest-finished but they're built like tanks and surprisingly accurate. He liked the P-series so much he selected them as his department's duty gun when he was a police officer. He's shot every gun under the Sun and could have recommended anything.
I bought my first Glock when there was only one. I have been checked by many range officers to see if I was shooting a full auto. I am still carrying this gun. Glock 17's rule!
In the 90's a few episodes of the X-Files had Mulder carrying a Sig. Later on he switched to the glock. My 14yo self really wanted that Sig... A few years later I really wanted Monica Reyes on the show instead, but I digress...
Interesting. Also interesting the FBI went on to adopt the 1076 a few years later--which, I guess, shares a lineage with the 645, in that it uses Smith's big-bore frame design, like the 4506, etc. For me, the Beretta 92 is the best "natural" shooter, all things considered. Though, I think the Smith 59XX makes a strong case, because it's a bit smaller all around and--I think--has a better DA pull than a 92.
Had a Smith 6906 and I loved that gun. Worked in a gun store from '85-92', sold a shit ton of beretta 92"s and the Taurus clones. About '96 I actually shot a beretta 92 and holy shit is that gun probably the most natural pointing pistol I've ever shot, by a skoosh over my browning hp
Nice! I have a 6904 (the blued version of the 6906) and I love it. The compact 69XX Smiths are a fantastic balance of size and shootability. But yeah, the Beretta 92 is just… special. I have itty bitty little hands, too-It feels freakin’ great to me.
Carried a Glock 17 as a duty weapon for 18 years, never had a malfunction of any kinds. It functioned properly everytime I had to utilize it. Still carrying a Glock 23 post retirement. Gotta love a Glock.
James, l too am a Ruger P85/89 lover. I packed my P85 on duty as a Reserve Deputy in a rural county in northeastern California for years (much to the chagrin and catcalls of my partners). There was one instance where my P85 nearly failed me. Early in m Reserve career l went to qualify with the guys and l couldn't get it to work. I'd fire a round then the piece wouldn't go into battery, and l had to push the slide forward with a rap. I examined the pistol and saw that the slide was bone dry. I had been carrying the thing off duty in a fanny pack and had let the maintenance slide. Bad call. So, at the range and still trying to qualify l went over to my truck, pulled the dipstick (not having a cleaning kit with me...of course) and smeared the black dirty oil up and down the slide and rails. The P85 then ran like a charm. Lesson learned, regular maintenance begun. Stupid youth left behind. Which calls to mind your FBI testing video, where the Ruger failed so badly. If you keep the gun clean and well lubed...you'll stay in the fight. I think those FBI testers ran the Ruger dry and had the same result l had. I properly maintain all my guns now, even the ones that supposedly can run forever on low maintenence. Now my duty weapon is an SR9, and it never fails. You run a great show. Keep it up.
The 645 had a great reputation for being solidly reliable on the street. The FBI 45 debate and preference to the larger round over the 9mm I believe was based on the fact that if neither hollow point bullet expanded, at least the 45 made the bigger wound channel (in gel) and didn’t tend to over penetrate as much. Ironically, when this study was conducted, the other agency that trained at Quantico was issuing the Glocks to academy classes and the Immigration and Naturalization Service, including Border Patrol was either allowing or on the verge of allowing personally owned G17s and 19s for official duty. Customs too. Incidentally, if the Glock 19 was around in 1987, it was the rare Gen 1 version and possibly even preproduction. I know that if they’d been readily available in 87, I would have bought one over the 17.
![I Rank the Pistols from HEAT in a Tier List [SPOILERS]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4HrA8A4X-_I/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks a lot; now I have to hide my blunts in my neighbor's garage!
Do a kickflip!
I always knew you were winking at us every time you smoked pot on the range
Hickock, you naughty pot smoking gun slinger.
That totally cracked me up! LOL
LOL🤣
The trigger guard test was done for appendix carry. Rumor has it most FBI agents in the 80's would become hard as a rock the second they slid a .45 ACP handgun into their pants, sometimes crushing the trigger guard.
hehe
excellent
🤣🤣🤣
Dammit 😂
Based
Pretty sure the trigger guard test was requested by the ATF, to check how well the firearm would hold up in the case that the agent had fired all of his ammo and needed to beat someone's dog to death with his firearm.
You're on to something
Damn brother I wanted to say the same thing. You're a genius, my friend.
Not gonna lie, from the moment I saw ATF I knew where this was going lmfao 🤣👌
Gotta say , you made me laugh.
Only the ATF would request a clubbing test into gun trials. Wonder if they keep score like: 3.5 puppies or 2 huskies
In 1990 I chose a SIG P228 (basically the same as the P226) for my duty gun for plainclothes duty and it served as my duty gun for the next 19 years, finishing out my 36 year LE career. I didn't know about the trigger guard issue. I never beat my trigger guard with a mallet. I know, weird. 🤷♂
Never had a problem with the trigger guard caving in on the trigger, though the gun did get dropped a few times. I still have the gun. It still works perfectly.
It's still a better gun than most
They just beat the shit out of it because it was the most expensive gun out of all of them. It’s metal. You hit it with a hammer it’s gonna bend
Some of them most have been firefighters before they joined the FBI
I love 💕 my p226
Vegas machine gun ranges rate the Sig226 and Glock 19/17 as the toughest of all their guns.
Ah the FBI known for intelligence and honesty.
😂😂😂😂
Good one, Ga Ce! Bwahhhhh!Hah!Hah!Hah!Hah!Hah!Hah!😆
Fuck the feds
intelligence
Shots fired….
The trigger guard test was based on a real life incident where an agent used his firearm as an impact weapon while fighting a suspect. The suspect was struck with a handgun that had an aluminum trigger guard. It deformed and rendered the gun useless. In an attempt to correct this they came up with this test back then. Not sure it's still used today with the advent of impact resistant polymer and previous test results.
Let's hope the agent learned that the guns are used for shooting and not hitting the suspects, but who am I kidding he probably did not :)
Very cool, thanks for the info!
using a gun as a club and then being surprised when said gun doesnt perform well as a club. classic.
I was gonna joke and say for a pistol whip test haha!
Should we stop pistol whipping suspects ya think?
FBI: Nah, just make the trigger guard stronger
Valid points about how user-error can be blamed on the gun.
FBI stovepiping? Never happened. LOL
It was a pleasant surprise to see you on this video. Nice crossover. I enjoy your videos 👍
@@avguidotti thank you! It was awesome to shoot with James, Pete, and Johnny!
When has the government ever been wrong? it's always somebody else's problem
Graham you went to work for Flowers By Irene (FBI - Simpsons)?
7:20 "I would just as soon believe that you saw hickok45 kick-flipping down the street in a durag with a massive blunt dangling from his mouth as I believe that any Glock ever would have one malfunction in every box of ammo..."
This is more than memorable. And the comment from @hickok45. Really made my week.
Having worked for a gov't agency. I can assure you that they knew what gun they wanted before the test started. And that the test results would come out in favor of that gun regardless of actual results.
Add: Johnny B. "Stay on the ground!" Love J.B.
I mean can you blame em? I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to shoot a shitload for free
Exactly. It's not a coincidence that Sig recently won the contract for sidearm, optic, and service rifle.
I've shot a bunch of Sig stuff, good firearms sure, but there's no way in hell they honestly won all three contracts.
Edit: I also forgot they also won a contract to supply ammo to the military for their service rifle. Cha-ching baby!
@@SuicideVan I was surprised as hell sig beat glock in the handgun tests. Then inmediately they had to basically recall the m17 because it would go off if you dropped it. I'm thinking sig is paying some people for these test results.
@@sethmullins8346 stop the cap lol SIG didn’t paid no one
This is how contracts work.
I went to work as an FBI agent in 1988. At the time, Smith and Wesson Model 13 .357's were general issue. HRT was carrying Browning High Powers and the SOG and SWAT teams were carrying Sig P226's. Semi-auto's weren't even authorized for regular agents, but a lot of us carried them as back ups. And, it's funny, I already owned an AT-84 (really just a Swiss made CZ75 clone) when I was hired, and that was my "gym bag gun" (what we used to call them) . The theory being, you would empty your revolver, and if there was still a threat or gunfight going on, you would just pull you "gym bag gun" and continue on. The idea being, that if it was a good shoot, using an unauthorized gun wasn't really going to matter, and it was a bad shoot, saying, "But, I used my issue gun" wasn't going to save you. Later in late 1988, they did authorize Sig P226's and some Smith and Wesson Semi-autos, and I bought a Sig P226 through a mass buy by the Agent's Association, for $425 if I remember correctly. Funny story is, my partner and I were sent to Fort Worth to pick up about sixty P226's for the agents in the Dallas office. The guns weren't assigned to any particular agent at that time, so he and I pulled over to the side of the road on the way back, and opened every box and compared the test targets and picked out the two guns with best target groupings for ourselves!) Later I sold the AT-84 to a friend in another agency, but I wish I had kept it. My son has that P226 now. And, I'll tell you in two words why the .45's got such high praise in that test. "John Hall". John Hall, who later became the head of the FTU, carried an unauthorized .45 in the FBI for years and the first thing he did after becoming head of FTU was to authorize .45's. More than anyone else, Hall brought the FBI into the future (sometimes too fast) when it came to handguns.
When the fbi was founded they didn't carry firearms and had no arrest power. Now look at them. A lesson here for sure.
@@p1b1harper , I think in retrospect, a two-part agency system, with, the FBI doing investigations, but the Marshals required to actually make the arrests, might have been a better way to go.
why was MLK killed?
So was you also told by a FBI director that the founding fathers, & us patriots that had a founding father fight in the Revolution, that they say we're domestic terrorists?
I've heard them bastards teach that shit to field agents!
The FBI are traitors for raiding us
*NON PHYSICAL VIOLENT Americans homes to disarm us over petty ass, repugnant, unconstitutional laws or statues they are following- Marbury vs Madison 5 US 137, 174, 176.
They are the domestic terrorists our founding fathers warned us about.
Best true tale here Mate! I would have done exactly the same thing in your position!
The "second and third gen" Smiths were extremely popular with law enforcement agencies back in the 1980's. My dad was the Chief Deputy for his Sheriff's Department in the late 80's and he did all the procurement stuff when the department would get new guns. Because of that, he would also usually buy a few guns directly from the distributor at cost and he kept them locked up in a vault, untouched since the 80's. He never fired any of them. S&W revolvers, Colt Pythons, and yes, "second and third gen" Smith & Wessons.
I actually think that my dad owns the first production S&W 4506 ever made, which was the replacement for the 645. It has a serial number of "0000", but I can't remember what the prefix is. Those guns have three letter prefixes before the numbers, so there is a chance that he just has the first gun in that prefix batch, but it is definitely an early, square trigger guard, non-dash 4506, and the four numbers in the serial are definitely "0000" because I remember how shocked I was when he showed them to me in the late 90's or early 2000's. Actually, the funny part is that he was shocked too. He never paid attention to that kind of stuff...he just bought the guns and put them in his vault and he will likely never take them out again until he dies and I inherit them. That's just how he is.
I tried to get him to call S&W back when he showed me the gun to see if they could confirm that it was the first production 4506 ever made, but I don't think he ever did. When I turned 21 he gave me the 4516 that he bought at the same time as the 4506. The 4516 has a serial number under 0050 and it actually IS one of the first 50 production examples of the 4516 ever made because I checked it. So I'm almost certain that the 4506 he has actually IS the first gun to roll off the production line. I've always loved those first, second and third gen S&W semi-autos and I always will, even if they are "obsolete" by today's standards.
That's a very cool story and great collection. I ordered a 4506 as my first handgun and I still have it. It came with the square trigger guard and adjustable sights. Very cool gun that that carried around my area by the police until they adopted the Glock 21.
The 1911 is obsolete by today's standards, and it's still kicking ass. My first pistol was a 659. Wish I still had it.
@@johngregory4801 very cool gun
@@rdh5961 Yeah, the "third gen" S&W semi-autos in particular were extremely popular with law enforcement in the late 1980's and throughout the 1990's. I'm sure it was probably because pretty much all of the law enforcement agencies had carried Smith & Wesson revolvers for 60+ years and when they all started transitioning to semi-autos in the 1980's, buying another S&W product made sense. S&W probably gave them good deals on the guns as well.
That's actually how my dad ended up with the 4506 and 4516 in the first place. His department was transitioning from revolvers to semi-autos in 1988 and that just happened to be the year that the 4506 and 4516 were released. That was two years after the 1986 Miami FBI shootout and that event really was the catalyst that moved ALL American law enforcement agencies away from revolvers and into semi-autos for good.
The FBI handgun evaluation that is the topic for this video took place in 1987...the year after the Miami shootout...and the next year, 1988, was when many police departments (including my dad's) started making the move from revolvers to semi-autos. The rapid and widespread adoption of semi-autos was specifically because of the 1986 shootout and the release of the final reports from the FBI's studies on "stopping power" and "semi-autos vs. revolvers" to law enforcement agencies nationwide in the 1987/1988 timeframe. Those FBI reports made it clear that revolvers were totally obsolete in law enforcement service.
@@johnnytyler5685 what a great story and thank you for sharing. I can also attest that the 4506 would never have the trigger guard damaged from impact. That thing is built like a tank and just as heavy.
As a handgun instructor in the norwegian military (wich adopted the G17 in the late 80's), i have to point out that the problem with a failure to lock back when empty, is in fact quite a signifigant problem when you are training thousends of troops. Because of that problem we have to train all norwegian troops to presscheck the chamber, whenever done fireing (Empty or Target down). This procedure is not due to safety concerns on the range, but mostly due to field experience. I think this can be compared to the problems of having an external safety on a gun. It's not a big problem, but its's the kind of training you would rather have your troops spending on aiming- and trigger-control.
However, i want to point out that i am not a glock hater! All tho i have chosen a different handgun for personal reasons, I think the glock is optimal for military use, becaue of it's simplicity to learn and handle, along with it's durability and price.
Yours is a salient observation. I have the same issue with simply dismissing failure to cycle problems caused by "limp wrist". It is solvable with training. But in the field someone could have an injured hand, be extremely cold, fatigued, or all of the above. A design less subject to human error is simply more reliable. This is true of dozens of pistol design tradeoffs. It seems a human tendency, once a set of features is accepted, to then become cannon and dismiss or overlook the accompanying compromises. It is difficult to remove all subjectivity.
@@artfulalias3984 The thing is, just about any lightweight polymer framed 9mm is going to have issues if you limp wrist it. It's in the nature of the design.
@@UrbanDefenseSystems That's exactly the point. Once the advantages of a particular design, like light weight polymer frame 9mm striker fired autos are weighed against the trade-offs and accepted, its human nature to become vested in that choice being the best. The tradeoffs become unchallenged assumptions in "how things Should be". If they cause a problem its not viewed as a design problem that might be solved with engineering. Rather it Must be training or the individual or etc... I'm not suggesting militaries regress to steel frame revolvers. Only that its more rational to remember and pass on the knowledge, in order to gain these advantages, such and such tradeoff was made. This design is better for one mission. Another design is better for a different set of priorities.
@@artfulalias3984 I don't disagree. I'm more so specifically pointing out that the Glock itself is not necessarily the only gun that limp wrists. Which it seems many people seem to believe.
@pandabanana2593
Perfection...
You can't tell anyone about a problem that got addressed... Because then you have to admit to not being perfect... I guess.
I haven’t considered any alphabet organization as a reliable or expert source in anything for quite a while
I think the Department of Energy can reliably be counted on as an expert in nuclear arms. and their office of secure transport guys are absolute boss about fending off vehicle interdiction
@@justsomeguyontheinternet5331 If Sam Brinton is anything to go by, our DOE is just as screwed.
@@machiavellireborn7541 that mutant is a political appointee, not a one doing science or engineering
My college roommate joined the FBI after he left the military. In keeping in touch with him over his 15 yrs in the FBI he shared a lot about the training and they actually do know their shit really well and train hard...at least the field units he was at in the mid-west did. Probably the typical situation where at the unit level they are phenomenal but at the higher/hq/DC agency level they are a bureaucratic nightmare. Same situation we had in the military...things get stupid in DC but are good as you get to the units.
I don't even trust their ballistics tests anymore they are so blatantly incompetent and corrupt.
This is the same FBI that missed a couple bank robbers with nearly every round they fired and decided the problem was the wrong caliber.
Word
Lol
🤣👍
I dunno, it mightve been (if it had been the other way around)
I'm picturing, "crap, our agents can't hit anything. Let's give them .32s
Acp instead of 10mm!"
To be fair the few times they did make hits the bullets performed pretty poorly. Handgun calibers are pretty lame and inconsistent though until you get into the full size magnums.
Also don't try to take on a guy with a rifle when you've only got handguns.
I carried my stock G-17 Gen 1 as a cop in the late 80's into the 90's. It was accurate on combat courses and never malfunctioned.
I have carried my Glock 27 since 1996 and it has never failed to go bang or lock back after last round. The Glock issue was due to limp wristing. Too many people are not aware of how important proper grip is when firing a firearm. Semper Fi my fellow Citizens.
I am new to handguns and decided on a Glock 48 mos for my EDC. While I love my 48, I have had three malfunctions in roughly 1500 rounds (all with one particular box of ammo) that were attributed to limp wristing. It concerns me because I believe that in a real world situation you may not always have an ideal grip regardless of training or technique. I believe that this issue is mostly due to the low weight of polymer handguns which is a benefit for EDC.
You started using Glocks nearly a _decade_ after this FBI test. You have no qualification to speak on what caused the failures the FBI noted with the early generation Glocks submitted for testing. Besides, sergeant, "limp wrist" Glock holds don't account for disintegrating magazines (in the magazine well).
10/10 shooters need to improve their grip as we speak
@@Petrolfox669 Too true.
I feel though that a gun should be a bit more forgiving for limp wristing. I've seen quite a few badge cams (policeactivity/codeblue) where officers get shot and run away wounded and then their glocks malfunction and get killed trying to clear the weapon. There were 2 last month on policeactivity of 2 wounded officers dying trying to clear their gen 5s. It kind of sucks that if you are wounded and not at full strength your weapon wont work.
FYI- the Ruger P89 was issued by Wisconsin State Police & San Diego PD for years. No doubt more field service than the 1006/1066/1076 ever saw. That said, my trigger time on a Raleigh, NC PD 1076 left me impressed. It was, however, a brick. Great shooter with "FBI loads" though. The entire test was an exercise in fuckery. Beretta, as it had since 1976, showed the superiority of the 92 series.
My first handgun, and one I still own, is the P90DC. Great gun, but without a question very heavy.
I had a ruger p90 it was heavy but I loved the way it shot and it looked so cool which is always a plus
@@Brees1986
Lu
I still have my P89, had it for years. I love that firearm. Absolute tank. Fun to shoot.
I’ve only carried it a few times. I generally carry my S&W Shield.
@@coyster530 most accurate, arm fully extended shooting the gun on its side
This was a fun test to run, thanks for including me!
Thanks for playing!
How much Truly did it cost you?
@@racer14glr91 As an Oregonian I brought some real beer for after hours.
@@tfbtv the at84 was swiss made, imported and stamped by IMI/action arms. Great video.
@@GBGuns surely James could handle them.
"I would just as soon believe that you saw Hickok45 kick-flipping down the street in a durag, with a massive blunt dangling from his mouth, as I'd believe that any Glock *ever* would have one malfunction for every box of ammo."
Pure poetry.
I'm old enough to remember why the FBI was so desperately looking for an improved handgun for their agents. In 1986 was the infamous Miami Shootout where poorly armed FBI agents got hurt bad by two bank robbers. 2 dead and 5 wounded. I'm surprised the maker of the video didn't mention this.
The FBI in 1986 blamed the Win Silvertip 9mm for its lack of performance but today tout the 9mm as best 🙄.....The FBI went on to get the .40 going and now recants back to the 9mm. I was a 6 year Officer in 1986 and we were pounded with this incident. As it turned out, that Win Silvertip performed as designed and it was the tactics (ever heard the audio tape of the incident?) of the Agents that was an issue! I spent 4 years at DHS with various retired Feds, I wont follow any of their training!
The reason for that debacle was they didn't hit the target in the first place. 2 agents had 9mm pistols with 12 to 13 round capacity which they shot 2 times each that means 48 rounds at least but hit the target only 1 time why? Because at least one of them lost his glasses. They had the report that the suspects are adequately armed with shotguns and semi-automatic rifles and had committed multiple robberies, assaulted and stole 2 vehicles which resulted in one murder and one attempted, not to mention one guard killed during the robberies. So they knew that the suspects had both the firepower and capability to do violence. So why did you stop them so inadequately prepared without any heavy firepower like submachine guns like Uzi used by Secret Service or Mp5s. Even if you didn't have those at least have speed-loaders and moon-clips for your revolvers and have backstrap and extra sets of glasses on yourself. More successful intercepts which resulted in shootouts like in the case of Dillinger or Bonnie and Clyde had LE personnel who were heavily armed. So in conclusion marksmanship is paramount, followed by movement to get a better position to return fire and be adequately prepared before entering the situation.
@@TakNuke William Matix was killed after being shot six times......Michael Platt was killed after being shot 12 times. Both were hit multiple times and continued to fight. "toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths" .........I was 6 years into my 40 year LE career when this happened. We heard the original audio of the Agent's radio traffic and anything else that was available...The Agents displayed a terrible mindset and bad tactics as well. Matix and Platt were mentally ready for a fight and fought until their bodies quit. The FBI blamed the Winchester 9mm Silver tip which by their own current standards performed as designed. Winchester was pissed and you don't hear their name in this fight anymore..... " one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt's right lung had collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood (hemothorax), suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this wound was the primary one responsible for Platt's eventual death."....The FBI said the 9mm was not enough and went on to develop the .40....THEIR TACTICS were a huge a problem and YES, maybe the 9mm was not enough to stop determined fighters .......Now the FBI wants to go back to the 9mm again but nothing has really changed other than some bullet design which will be INSIGNIFICANT.......the 9mm wasn't enough then and it wont be now! Im still carrying a .45!.......and choose when and where to fight (but there's a rifle in the trunk!)
@@TakNuke I agree with a lot you said here. Heavy firepower certainly wasn't invented during the 80's, but I do know that this firefight directly caused the FBI to experiment with 10 MM pistols.
High capacity handguns were pretty uncommon back then. A 13 round 9MM sounds like a Browning Hi-Power.
"You're under arrest, but maybe we can work something out." God, you even nailed the hypocrisy of the FBI (really anything under the DOJ) in this intro.
any cop, you mean.
@@allunavaliable I predict a place for you in a federal prison eventually, since you smack of militia mindset and paranoid delusions.
Paranoid often, or continuously?
The FBI has been corrupt for a long time.
@@allunavaliable local police are usually better. The FBI and DOJ aren't anything but the federal force arm.
When the FBI tested long guns, the Brown Bess musket got a perfect score for never failing to chamber a round and 100% extraction. 🤯🤣
Brown bess percussion conversion : hold my cap
@@gunnermurphy6632
Brown Bess was used for a long time by the British.
And you are correct many were converted to percussion cheers
Any flintlock would fail from too many misfires. New Model Army matchlock musket ftw!
clearing the chamber after a misfire was very hard though
+1!
I knew that all my 9mm's were trash. Thanks for the unbiased info FBI!
Kansas Department of Corrections used the Ruger P95 when I stated my career there. The SORT team were issued these, while Ruger GP100's were for other armed officers. The P95's were a huge liability in incidental mag drops and the transitional triggers affecting accuracy. During my tenure as Armory officer, we moved to Gen 4 Glock 17's.
What liability? You only using them against prisoners. LoL. F them.
P95s were junk. When you shake an empty gun, if it rattles, there's issues. Owned one, briefly, traded it for a S&W 5906, a much better made pistol.
The Bureau of Prisons had P89 and P95 they ranged in polished Aluminum and the weird fiberglass micarta plastic. They were chunky and never jammed.
When I was in the Sheriff's Dept for 8 years I was issued a Beretta 92F which had already been in service and was close to 25 years old already by the time it got in my hands. Man what a great handgun. I am sure before they gave me a 25 year old gun they replaced springs, firing pin, etc. on it, but for being that old, the gun performed amazing. I shot thousands of rounds through it during my career. Loved it so much I purchased my own M9A1. The last year I was in, we switched to the M&P9. Great freaking gun as well, tons of ND's though throughout the dept, especially by the cops that had been on 20+ years and were not used to not having a safety and DA/SA trigger. I liked the S&W MP9 so much, that even after I left I purchased several of them, including the 2.0 versions. I gotta say though, I still enjoy shooting the Beretta more. We were not allowed to carry Glocks as they were not on our approved list at the time, but I have shot many of them. Great guns, super reliable, but just don't like the ergos on them. In my opinion this study was biased as hell, and Glock, Beretta, and Sig should have been the top 3 no question.
Riggs and McLane approve!
Yo, when are you retired officers or other officers going to unite with us to fight these traitor bastards?
It's going to have to take men like you, ex servicemen, & ex SF guys to lead the way.
AND WE WILL FOLLOW!
WE NEED ANOTHER AMERICAN REVOLUTION AGAINST THEM, THE ATF, THE CORRUPT DOJ, & DOD. The DOD ran by that CRT Indoctrinating, pushing POS general Milley!
Those Berettas aren't necessarily the best guns out there, but they are TANKS! I have a 96 Centurion I bought ~15yrs ago from a police equipment store. It was supposedly an officer's or detective's duty gun for years so no telling how many rds have been through it before me. Never been a huge fan of .40S&W, but I've probably put roughly 1-2K through and haven't done a single thing to it (several types and brands) and it just runs. Nitpicking, it could probably use a new recoil spring (or entire spring set) and maybe even a barrel to squeeze out the best accuracy, but I'll likely run it until it fails (which it hasn't yet to my recollection except maybe a return to battery). Big deal, it's a range toy and EDC option if/when other preferred calibers are unobtainable.
I trust the FBI as much as I trust a fart after eating Taco Bell.
24 years on the Police Department. Over those years, as a gun collector and cop, I carried several of these particular guns, or at least a version. When I began policing, of course we were issued revolvers, smith 19's. I purchased a M1911A1 plain old milspec and replaced the 19 because I was an old soldier and carried it in Nam, loved the old pelter. Still have one. Then I purchased a Smith Model 59. Not bad but I didn't really have a lot of faith in the 9mm, I guess my old military training. One day I picked up a Glock 19 and carried it for a year or two. Not bad but it was 9mm and again I guess if I could blast 18 rounds of 9 I figured I was well armed. No we didn't get paid for shit back then so when it came to wanting a Sig 220, the price kept me out of that market, but back then Astra made a clone and I bought one. The Astra A100. I carried that for the rest of my time on the PD and loved everything about it except for the weight compared to the Glock. I shot better with it, usually topping the list of qualification scores probably because I was an avid re-loader and shot thousands of handgun rounds from several old handguns and almost as many .223 rounds from my Cold AR-15 and Ruger Mini-14's. I was also an avid deer hunter my favorite deer gun was a Remington 700 in 25-06 for the long range shots on the open prairie in Western North Dakota. So my top from this group would be the SIg in .45ACP. But that's just me. My experience with the Smith 59 was based on the original model which had a very gritty DA trigger that I simply hated.
Someone I knew carried a Sig P220 in .45. He got in a few shootouts with 8 round mags and changed fairly quick. Good firearm, but reloading can get you killed.
Sounds like you actually did your job and trained. You likely could have topped the qual scores with a snub nosed revolver with the time you put in. Some cops don’t touch the trigger until a couple of days before their qual exam comes up.
@Jonathan Nieve I respectfully disagree. Not too many people would say the P226 is obsolete. I own a Glock and a West Germany Sig P226. I would carry my Sig first. It has been through thousands of rounds flawlessly.
The P320 series…. That is a different story, but it’s hard to say the P365 is obsolete though. It created the very idea of high capacity micro 9s.
@Jonathan Nieve And he said the Glock 19 holds 18 rounds of 9mm, they must have used extended magazines?
When I started policing way, way back, I had a Browning Hi-Power (and still have it). A coworker had a SIG P220 .45 and was retiring. So $100 a month bought me that slightly used, almost new pistol. Like you said, they didn't pay squat back then so that's the only way I afforded it. I shot that SIG so much it finally developed some accuracy issues so, broken hearted (LOVED that gun) I swapped it for an H&K USP .45 ... then got issued a Remington-Rand 1911 the Army loaned my dept through their DRMO program. Then we went to issue guns and I got a SIG P229 followed later by a SIG P226 (that I was given when I retired).
I can remember attending various firearm training by the FBI, including a basic SWAT course. They liked buzzwords like "subsonic" and "tactical" and such.
I have run a couple of thousand rounds of various types of various types of prime and junk 9mm ammo through my Ruger P89 and have never experienced a failure of any type. I don't know if the P89 is better than the P-85, just that this has been my experience with a comparable pistol.
I have a P-85 that I purchased new when they first came out. I've only put about a thousand rounds of various manufacturers through it over the years, but I didn't experience any issues at all. Never had a problem ejecting the magazine. It was mentioned in the video that they had a problem with the decocker. Shortly after I purchased the gun, Ruger had me send my P-85 in to have the decocker replaced with a revised version. Don't know if the FBI's problem led to the revision. Never fired a P-89.
I have a S&W 669 and a Sig P225 that I purchased a couple of years later. Never had issues with either one. I will note that I haven't put thousands and thousands of rounds through any of these so take my comments with that in mind.
the problem gave the P85 a bad rep thats one of the reasons they went to the P89
My Buddy ran 4k thru his p85 with no malfunctions
Fascinating study! And thank you for the effort, the tenacity, the dry humor, the sarcastic wit, etcetera that is James Reeves. Fun stuff and they absolutely got it way wrong. P226 legion all the way baby. I can put 30 rounds in a two inch circle at 10 yards-all it takes is a little trigger and support hand control. Best Regards James.
This. 👆 I actually love my Sig SP2022's in 9mm. Just a reliable, intuitive design with a great trigger and accurate.
...and I don't hate Glocks. Just shoot better with Sigs.
About the Glocks being unsafe on their test, I can almost say with absolute certainty that your summation is correct. When my Department of Energy site switched us from P226 DA/SA's to Glock 17 gen4's somewhere around 2015, we were on the line for "familiarization fire," and 2 old-heads to my left and right let a round go into the dirt several feet in front of us on the draw because they were staging their triggers. Scared the shit out of both of them. They later criticized God's Plastic for being "dangerous," while I contended they were the unsafe turds who violated the second General Firearm Safety Rule. "Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target... Unless you don't feel like like it or something."
Always great content, thanks boys!
Staging the trigger used to be a thing on old Sig’s with that mile long pull. It’s hard to get the old guys to break bad habits (they were bad habits that were taught)
Yup. Same thing happened when the LAPD switched from Berretas to glocks. Bunch of NDs. So of course you get the same, "See? Glocks are dangerous" from the 1911(or whatever else) fan bois online.
My response was the same as yours: It doesn't show that the glock is 'dangerous', it shows how the safeties/decockers/long and heavy first trigger pulls, etc. on these guns mask poor trigger discipline/safe handling habits.
I would never carry a Glock. I think they have unnecessarily light (and thus unsafe) triggers.
@@kirk2767 that's a good joke!
@@kirk2767 lol k
At an organisation level, the decision is a cost/benefit analysis.
At a personal level, the decision is staying alive.
I've got the same P89. Bought it in 90-91. Thousands of rounds, still rocks.
The Department of Corrections I worked for used to use the Ruger P series, and holy crap. They were garbage. We had guys having de-cock levers flying off during regular range quals.
I had a p95 for a few years. I really did not like that pistol.
Our DOC used them too. They sucked.
Its also only $200 for a Good Brand Name
My guide rod spring went flying down the range fock the p89. Pos
Wow I haven't heard much about the Ruger's poor performance.
I just didn't like the way they felt. So Luckily I never bought one
First handgun I bought way back when was a Ruger P89DC.. still have it today and love shooting it. Never had an issue of any kind over all these years
After over a decade of flawless performance, I did eventually replace the extractor and lighten the trigger pull on my 89dc. i gave one son the 89dc and other the P-90....Also, HAD TO get those Hogue grips. Huge difference!
I have a P89DC and a P95DC. Love 'em. And Mec-gar makes 17 round mags for them, which is a major plus.
I wish Ruger would bring the P series of pistols back into production. If they did all metal pistols would probably make a comeback.
Remember when FBI also said that. 40cal is like super duper awesome? That didn't age well.
Yep, after they found out they couldn't train their agents on the S&W 1006 & 1076,
The 40 S&W is an awesome caliber.
@@gymntonic I find that pathetic...
@@mickjagger5469 exactly
The .40 is awesome. Their wimpy agents found the recoil too much. Accountants and lawyers aren't real gun friendly.
Why would we think of the FBI as a credible source of any information😂😂😂.
Because uhhhh Russia?
because they are literally one of the highest functioning organizations in history and currently on the face of the planet?
Because some of us aren’t delusional nutbar factor 6 morons
Oh no, you’re one of…those 🤡
This FBI test seems like the least scientific way to go about testing guns, teeming with errors and biases.
Who said that wasnt the point... you want to buy a gun for your agency, you dont want to buy complete crap, but you also want to buy something your people will like/accept. You also have to justify your buy to the bean counters. So you design a test with enough play that it lets you justify what you want.
@@link10909 you even have to do this shit in the private sector. It’s a classic tactic to procure what you need because giving too many specific requirements makes it too easy for leadership to nitpick every detail
You really ought to read the Thompson-LaGarde tests. Now those suckers were hilarious biased
I know the man who did all the testing for LASO. He tried to get S&W to make a couple of changes on their weapons but they refused. Their stubborness cost them the contract. LASO's initial order was 12,000 Berettas.
Ah yes, Legendary All Skulls On from Halo. LASO
The Beretta 92 is one of my all time favorite weapons and I've gotta say it did great on these ridiculous tests.
My PT 111. Held strong .
when i was a kid, i hated that gun cus of how it looked in video games and movies, now that im older and can legally shoot one, its not bad :3
The Beretta 92 FS is the gangster of all guns.
@@David-sr5xj *godfather
The 1st automatic I bought, and the only one iv kept all these years, it will never leave here , my absolute all time favorite , iv never actually had to use it , but it will be my go to if shtf
The M645 is the only gun on that list I don't own and have never shot. Having said that, if I had to choose just one gun from the list, It would be the SIG P226. I own 2 of them and although they are on the larger side I have never had a single issue with either one. Accuracy, reliability and trust mean a lot. Great video!
I carried the S&W Mod 645 beginning in 1988 but replaced it a few years later with the Glock Mod 21. I loved my 645 and still have one today, but the G21 was a much better gun for work, at least in my opinion. I still have it too.
Very cool. My local department still uses the Glock 21, with detectives getting the 30.
AR state police rocked the G21 for a long time, packed with golden sabers. We have the Lonoke, AR Remington plant here. Gotta support your local boys.
I run a S&W M&P 45c myself.
I love my G21 and G30. Load them with Speer Gold Dots and they are mean machines!
@@kaig453 I went to get the 21, but handled the lighter 41 with the MOS cut and ended up getting both. I really like the lighter weight of the 41 and I got a KKM 10mm conversion barrel to try something different.
@@rdh5961 I too prefer the Glock 41 over the 21. I can carry the 41 concealed, no problem.
James trying to be Paul Harrell pulling 20 guns out of his pockets.
I loved the 13:25 Paul Harrel coat of infinite holding. This was a great video and an excellent look into the well-intentioned, but flawed, methodologies used in that testing. Not to mention it featured some lovely hammer-fired semi autos.
One day I’d love to see Harrell take a sandwich out of his coat pocket during a video
@@KGBBooks Take a bite while talking and continue.
Harrel is a God of sorts 🤟
Once the letters FBI are uttered... We already know their wrong.
Whatever they're selling, I'm not buying!
Gotta be that guy. Because you're talking about someone being wrong.
"They're"
@@BryceCzirr-jz7ju 😂😂😂 clever
@@benredacted8468No just didn’t drop out of school in the 3rd grade
*thare
I have shot competitions for years, averaging well over 500 rounds per week. My first handgun was a Glock 19. I had a little over 23,000 rounds through it before I had a malfunction. Trigger return spring broke. Yes, I had plenty of times the slide did not lock back when empty, but it was always my thumb on the release that was the cause. I switched to a Glock 34 for competition and have shot over 100k rounds without a failure.
😂😂😂. 23k and 100k no failure. This is why so many operators hate glock because people like you. You just saying this makes me feel like you've never shot a gun in your life.
@@chrisjtal21 you one of em operator bros?
@@marcusrat4466 Maybe. Who know. But does one ever truly know.
@@chrisjtal21 wow, you even talk like an operator bro!
@@chrisjtal21 you realize the actual pistol of the real "operators" is a Glock 19, right? Im not rreally a fan boi but I was sitting at an armorers course with about a dozen socom armorers who stated there was no way they were going to the P320.
Best use of FBI ammunition is mag dumping into the air while screaming as your friend runs away.
In the aftermath of the 1986 Miami shootout, I tracked the FBI testing with interest.
I also polled a few of the agencies in SoCal that allowed .45 ACP pistols.
There was good reason for a guy to want a .45 at the time. The 9mm ammo of the era genuinely sucked, which is sort of what kicked all of this off, and gave us he 10mm, and eventually, the .40S&W.
Fortunately, the advances in bullet design have elevated the performance of the 9mm to be more or less the equal of the .40/.45, so it really isn't an issue any more, but there was a good reason for it, then.
Fire power..fire power..fire power!
10 mm best or all beast it is more power then a tank Ventura extreme defense ammco his Thur level 3 body armor 44 mag wount ha terminator
9mm at the time was not any worse in actual shootings than the 45ACP. It always had roughly the same performance. The new ammo technology has improved the performance of both rounds.
@@wstavis3135: Meh.
Evans and Sanow had a significant body of data at the time that appeared to support the "big bore is bitchin'" perspective.
It was precisely the failure of one of the most advanced hollow point designs extant during the Miami shootout that spurred the FBI to look at cartridges with better penetration.
@@rickyjohnson9594 in non-gibberish please.
Wow! By far one of the most fascinating comparisons I’ve watched on RUclips. I really enjoyed the no distracting rock band background music, the fast paced no Bravo Sierra discussions, and uncovering some real facts about human bias and government politics.. The results of the testing stats are eye-opening. It is brilliant analysis.
James, you totally crack me up! Your comedic scripts, sarcastic delivery and timing are world-class! I hope I'm not the only one here who appreciates it.
Well said
Drop your weapon!
I was a “Sig guy” back in the late ‘80’s to late 90’s. In that time there was no way I would own a “plastic” gun, until the summer of ‘99, when the G23 would be my handgun of choice, switching to Glock 9mm’s in 2011. I’m pretty sure FBI agents felt largely the same way about those “plastic” guns, back in ‘87. I’m just surprised that when all of the guns showed up for testing, that they didn’t dump all of the 9mm’s and simply tested the Sig P220 vs the S&W 645, and called it a day, lol.😎✌️
Round count
I felt the same way back then. I carried a SIG P220 or a Colt LW Commander for a while and felt well armed. I really wouldn't consider a Glock when they first got here. Then I got a G;ock 23, and set about trying to break it or make it jam. It wouldn't do either. I had some buddies who were still "all SIG, all the time", and when one of them started spouting off about how superior the SIG was to the Glock, I'd say, "Well there is one thing your SIG can do that my Glock won't", and they'd eagerly say "What is that?" I'd reply "Rust". That got me more than one dirty look but at the time it was true.
Like you I ended up with a Glock 19 that I went to for both on and off duty in 2007.
This comment is for U TUBE : Why do u continue to ask me for a reply but then u only allow it to stay up for a few minutes , or else u don't post it at all ☹️
Glock beat all of them in the most important category, with that being price, thus it became one of the most popular handguns in the world. All this BS about reliability, durability, accuracy and parts availability became secondary to price
@@runningbear6391 Exacpt when the plastice frame gets crushed when a steel frame wouldn't.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough
But the chances of that happening are very slim unless one purposefully smashes it with a hammer.
Not everybody is poor.
@@nicholas389 lol
@@runningbear6391 I pack a Gen 3 daily on duty, and I watch 40+ guys qualify with them. They're just guns. They malfunction as much as any other.
Got them all except for the Ruger (my S&W is the 645). I've gotten stupid-accurate with the G17; I used to loathe Glocks.
“My only love sprung from my only hate!" -Shakespeare ( when he wasn't as drunk as I am now. lol )
I’ve owned and sold a lot of pistols over the course of 26 years, and the one I kept is my trusty and proven Beretta M9. After firing thousands of rounds, I’ve never had to replace 1 single part on it with the exception of refreshing out the old magazines.
I’ve had no problems with HK VP9 after many many thousands of rounds. It looks so worn and still functions perfectly.
@@Quantiples HK makes some really nice firearms as well. I really enjoyed my USP 40, but eventually switched over to 9mm for pistol and 5.56 for my rifles to keep some standardization and simplify ammo purchases.
@@bigmike2149 same. All pistols are 9mm, except a bear/boar 10mm. Rifles are a different story. 75% 5.56, but also 300 blk and 6.5 creedmoor.
I just recently picked up an old 92S for $365 and I was amazed by how nice it is to shoot. I hate double action triggers personally, but this old Beretta is one of the best I've tried.
It is a Solid Pistol Choice. I own 5 Beretta 92 pistols, 3 of which are Wilson Berettas. Wonderful 9mm handguns. Stay Safe. B9USA Sr.
The Federal Bureau of Prisons adopted the Ruger P89 in 1995 and still uses them in most locations.
thats cuz prison guards are the drop outs of the enforcmeent world. Its like what do you call a doctor that flunks medical school? A dentist.
P89 is a great gun.
I've had no issues with my P89, and have had it for ages.
I would guess the striking the trigger guard was done to test its durability as striking someone with trigger guard for compliance was probably common practice. The Marines Berretta m9a1 has a beefed up trigger guard for this exact purpose
That is exactly what I was thinking too.
Testing a handgun as a bludgeon is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard of. If you're doing that you better be a gangster or out of bullets
One advantage of the "Clock 19" was that you were always on time for shoot outs and were never late to work.
Love these kinds of deep dive videos, James. Keep up the awesome content!
I'm not a Glock fan boy and i still refuse to believe they failed that often. I don't own one yet simply for not having one yet. Their reputation for reliability is well known and earned through quality.
I have only seen Glocks fail like that when the person was severely limp wristing it.
Put 250 rounds through a used G48 with cheap ammo and never had a single hiccup, stovepipe, or slide fail to lock back. And I pushed that hard in less than a half hour range time. (Only using one mag, so that is firing 10 rounds and reloading 10 rounds every minute.)
Having multiple people fail that badly with separate glocks seems like it was forced, or the people were not used to any striker fired guns.
I own a gen 3 19 and its my favorite handgun I've ever shot, just barely beating a Glock 17 long slide and a Beretta 92fs. Never had a gun induced malfunction through several thousand rounds even in an adverse marine environment. I carry it at work and even after years of abuse and almost daily exposure to saltwater it has yet to start corroding. Even with +Ps and +p+ it has very little recoil for how small it is and is quite accurate for only having a 4" barrel. It makes my gen 5 g26 look like a piece of crap lol I highly recommend the gen 3 17 or 19
Own many handguns but the only glocks I own are their knives🤓
Also not a glock fan. I got a 17 as a fishing gun (no attachment to it if I lose it what ever) that said I shoot it a lot, like a lot a lot. The cheapest shittiest ammo money can buy and I’ve had about 4 problems in thousands of rounds one was I think the gun because the extractor wouldn’t catch the case and the the case was fine. Everything else was ammo or magpul glock mags. Not sure how or why they had so many problems.
Most likely what he said in the video, the agents were probably riding the slide release with their thumb preventing it from locking back on a empty mag. Took me a little while to realize that my shooting hand thumb was resting on the slide release on my gen4 19
I would really love to see a modern rematch using the same tests. Throw in your gen 5 Glocks, M&P 2.0, Sig P320, and I'm guessing the whole reason Ruger was even tested was for there to be that budget option for low-funded departments, so in the spirit of that I'd say throw in the Ruger Security 9. Would be cool to see how the brands stack up now in one big test.
Or maybe I just wanna see the Security 9 redeem Ruger in some capacity because it's actually a decent gun that no one really talks about. Lol
Great video. Yes, the IMI AT84 is fairly rare but did exist. It’s a Swiss-made CZ 75 style of handgun.
Yes, but it was from ITM a Swiss manufacturer that made very high quality CZ clones that were used by many special police and military units of that era (including Israeli). It is possible that the FBI tested a sample of the Sphinx systems CZ clone from a partner Israeli LE Agency. IMI later produced their own CZ clone called the Jericho 941. In fact, they still make CZ clones today.
No, the IMI AT84 from Israel doesnt exist. The *IMT* AT84 does exist. That's literally what he said in the video too, it's a Swiss made cz75 clone. The ones brought to the USA were riddled with qc issues as they were basically built from Tanfoglio parts and sold as "swiss" precision (they werent).
Years ago, I got a Glock 17, brand new, out the box...first time on the firing range, it wouldn't take hollow points (jammed up), it didn't like reloads (I know, many pistols don't) . A month later, I had a "hang fire" malfunction. I traded it in for a HK USP...no problems with THAT weapon
What is hk usp
HK, everything a Glock cannot be.
Magazine
Sadly, a fella that has had that exact same problem with every pistol ever made can be easily found which had not stopped so many from buying 2 or 3 from every manufacturer.
@@johnharris8191 is it a certain type gun who makes it
Among the most entertaining TFB video's, James is lobbing some zingers on this one.
The more I've learned about 80s gun trials, I'm continually shocked the Sig P226 didn't win the Army contract, as well as this one. It's just such a solid gun.
In a word, cost.
Both the Beretta and the Sig basically finished even. But Beretta under bid Sig and had a better overall deal with the spare parts and support.
@@stever8776 Makes sense for a mass issue military contract. I just ogle the P226 SAO every time I see one in a shop. One day...
I carried a Cocked and Locked 1911A1 in the Coast Guard. I also went to Gunsite and trained with a Cocked and Locked 1911A1.
One of my shipmates brother was a Police Officer in California at the time. He was shot by a bad guy with a single barrel sawed off shotgun. He was 'knocked out' . The perp took the Officer's on-safe Beretta 92FS.
The perp tried multiple times to shoot my friend's brother in the head.
Fortunately he was unable to disengage the safety.
Back up arrived and started CPR and were successful.
We received training from the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center at our Group. We learned of more incidents like this. In which Officer's lives were saved by on-safe guns. So I continue to carry a Cocked and locked handgun either a more modern Colt Government model like the XSE models, a CZ75 or even slightly customized Browning Hi-Power.
But I've always liked the Sig 220 and 226. Some Feds carried them.
As soon as I saw the SAO P226, I bought one!
I put Hogue G10 grips on them as the factory wood grips would flex when you used a firm grip.
Finally a Sig I can carry!
I like it! But the CZ75, Hi-Power and Government model feel more natural in my hand.
Go ahead and get the Sig 226 SAO! Carry it Cocked and Locked after lots of practice.
🍻 cheers
James, this is first time I had seen this study. I started my police career in the early 1980's and started out with a S&W revolver, transitioned to a 1911 and then bought my own S&W 459. Never new of it's capabilities under the F.B.I studies. I do know that I carried it in SWAT for many years, and it worked flawlessly. I still have the gun and will take it out to test it against my Glock 19 and 17 and, the Shadow systems. Thanks for your info
8:20 Once is obviously ok, but repeatedly chambering the same round in an AR isn't a good idea. The International Wound Ballistics Association's Dr. Gary Roberts, who serves as a consultant to many law enforcement agencies in the matters of service ammunition, cited an OIS incident wherein one officer's rifle failed to fire. An investigation determined that the cartridge failed to ignite because it was repeatedly chambered and unchambered over a period of time, which eventually deactivated the primer. For this reason it is SOP in some agencies to have any round that is unchambered from an AR-15 (or any other gun with a free floating firing pin) relegated to the training pile instead of being reused as carry ammo. I would post the link to where Dr. Roberts mentions this but YT likes to hide comments with external links. Look it up among his pinned posts in either pistol-forum or m4carbine if you're interested.
TLDR: Repeatedly chambering the same round in an AR may cause that little indentation to deepen to the point that the round will no longer fire.
Thank you for this information
@@gunnermurphy6632 My pleasure. FWIW, I've attempted to intentionally deactivate a primer in this way and was only successful using an AR with an extra power recoil spring and even then it took a few dozen cycles. Still, the fact that there's a documented incident of a failure happening just makes it a good idea to play it safe
@@shootinbruin3614 most definitely. Stay safe
@@gunnermurphy6632 Thank you. To you as well
James, You have to remember that back in the 80s when this test was done Glock was NOT using Steel Reinforced Magazines and they were pronned to malfunctions and that is why Glock redesigned the Magazines with the Steel liner which increased reliability. The Sig P226 and P220 Pistols are Great but you have to remember that back then the front part of the slide and was welded on and the slide was folded steel not the Milled out single piece of steel that they are today so the pistol back then were not as accurate as the ones today. The Ruger P85 had way too many issues and that is why Ruger went back to the drawing board and released the P85 Mark 2 and short after that the P89 was released which was a Quantum Leap forward in the Series! I agree with you that Ruger P Series Pistol were very Reliable I had a KP-90 that I purchased shortly after they came out and was a very trusted pistol that I carried and shoot many IDPA matches with from 1993 to about 2000 and won many of them too.
I have to disagree with you when it come to the SW645 because that is an EXCELLENT Semiauto Pistol that is Extremely Accurate and is Build like a TANK! I grew up watching Miami Vice and that was a pistol that was showcased after the Bren10 left the show and I was finally able to get a nice copy of a 645 that was born in early 1987 which puts it about half way in the Production life of the pistol. It is too bad that Smith and Wesson does not make all Steel Guns any more because they pistols like the Gen 2 645 and Gen3 6906 are great shooters and it would be nice to see what a Gen 4 all Steel Hammer style could bring to the table. I also own one of the Gen 3 TSW4006 40sw from CHP that I purchased when they first became available back 2015 and my copy came with the Exterior at 95% but the interior at 99.9% all I did was put a new set of grips because the rubber grips that came with mine were a little worn but the pistol is a shooter. I have replaced all the Springs on both of my Smith and Wesson Semi Auto Pistol and they shoot great.
the ruger p89 was a huge leap and an incredible handgun throughout the 90’s
@@masgreygoon YES it was! When I got my P90 and added the Wilson Combat Spring Kit it took the pistol to the next level in addition to taking a Stone and Polishing the Sear and Hammer engagement. At the time I was poor college student that also participated in IDPA League Matches and the P90 never failed me except one time when I broke the Magazine Release Spring but that could have happen to any pistol and it happen to my Ruger after about 30K rounds in less than 5 yrs of use. After that I made sure that to keep a few extra springs in my shooting bag. It is was really too bad that NO ONE in the Aftermarket made performance parts for the P-Series of Pistols because that would have made a good pistol GREAT!
Years ago I went thru a training course with a member of LAPD SIS.
He used a S&W 645.
The sidearm he used
was an excellent firearm.
I used my 1911. 👍😊🇺🇸
I put Hogue grips on mine and it feels and looks great. I really don't know why I haven't ever shot it other than I bought a gen 2 Glock 22 shortly after and started shooting it. I plan to take out the 4006 and burn some of this old .40 ammo I have and test it out. I love the feel with the Hogues on it and it does look amazing. It is heavy as hell though. I still want a 4506.
@@thejeepdude4578 I have been looking for a 4506 or the Upgraded 4506-1 which came out about year or two after the original but I saw a 4566 at my Gun Club a few weeks ago which is an ALL STEEL 4.25 inch DA/SA pistol similar in size to a Sig P220 but not as light unless it is the ALL Stainless Steel P220 5 inch 45acp or 10mm but I did take my P220 Legion 10mm Steel Frame and put my P220 45acp 4.4 inch Slide and the weight and balance was similar. The West Virginia State Police used a Tactical model that has a Frame milled Railed on their TSW4566 but only 500 pistols were made so they are hard to get. I have not seen one in person yet but I have a couple of friends around W.V. looking for me.
This is some of your best work. Fantastic video
FBI chose the S&W 1076 (10mm) after the Miami shoot-out and as a result I bought a model 1026 (full size version). It cost me $385 with my FFL in 1991 and extra mags were $29 each. I bought 4 (gun came with 1). God I loved that gun! But I was young and dumb and eager to try new things and straight traded it for something I am too embarrassed to admit to. 30 years later and I have never stopped kicking myself over that trade.
FBI could not handle the 10mm. Its the truth.
@@branned specifically, female officers couldn't. When you add women to a man's job it devolves to their ability level. Like our military. And once you drop the bar that low, why not keep dropping it yo the next "special" group and the next...
@@evandailey5110 The military had the same issue with the large grip of the Beretta. It was not the round.
@@branned Having owned both I can say the Berretta has a much larger grip. Also, there are notes from the FBI specifically concerning female officers inability to manage the recoil for secondary shot placement. It had everything to do with the round, hence the 40S&W or 10mm short- a face saving move; still technically 10mm. This info is not hard to come by.
@@grandfaultimperceptor Yes, I know that story. Heck, in Afghan would have carried the 1911 but the military likes small rounds to spray targets with. I like the 40S&W. I have never owned a 10mm. In bear country I just carry the .45 ACP. Not great but it's me....😁😁
Great video. One thing to remember.....in the '80s, hollowpoint design wasn't that great. You couldn't count on getting reliable penetration or expansion from HP loads, especially 9mm JHP. The .45ACP JHP had an advantage in unexpanded size, and any expansion it got was a bonus. Plus, .45ACP doesn't penetrate as deep in tissue as 9mm no matter what bullet is used. In that day, .45ACP was a better LEO round. Today, technology has changed that for the better.
Also: Early Glocks were still working out the bugs. Slides not locking back on empty were common. And the triggers left a lot to be desired.
Plus: The Ruger P85 was not a good gun. It had lots of issues that were addressed in the later P89, thankfully. The P85 almost kicked Ruger out of the service auto business. The P89 and P90 brought them back in as contenders.
One more thing: The trigger guard test was important because pistol-whipping a perp was still a thing. Many a S&W revolver had crushed guards due to improperly PW'ing a perp. That's a big reason a lot of pistols from that era had thicker guards.
The trigger guard test was done to make sure they could handle hard hits as they used the gun to pistol-whip their targets when they were either out of bullets, or the target was not displaying deadly force cause.
Sure…hitting someone with no safety and directly with a trigger guard. Where your finger struggles is likely to get great broken if not insinde
The safest and strongest non lethal non true safety switch, is the Hammerfist ,,,,,
The trigger guard slam test was mainly for the TAC team. It is for when they repel and land on a ledge or something.
Most holsters back then where soft leather not like nowadays where you get issued a hard plastic holster that is very durable.
Never would've guessed this
Thanks!
7:50 - I have noticed that with some aftermarket Glock magazines, if you shoot hundreds of cartridges at one session, the slide will start to fail to lock back unless you begin using magazines that are different then the ones you were using. I don't know how that happens, but it's been my experience that that happens. Probably wouldn't be an issue if you were in a real gunfight since you're probably not going to go through hundreds of rounds of ammunition and have time to reload the same 4 or 5 magazines while doing so.
Probably some temporary deformation from heat buildup, maybe some fouling or crud affecting the follower. Magazines getting worn out or damaged are the biggest weak point of any semi-automatic pistol.
I know you are a Glock Fanboy and that the FBI was biased back then. You have some very valid points about how skewed the testing was against the Glock. Me, personally, I just do not like Glocks or any gun with a 'trigger safety'. I like a solid, smooth-faced trigger.
Ok
I don’t care for Glocks because the trigger and ergos suck
Thats just your opinion man... It isnt even a valid data point.
Air Marshall exray gun
@@rickhunter6513 man of culture
I thought I was watching Paul Harrel when you started pulling all that shit out of your jacket pockets.
Dammit, beat me to it
He's cool, he's not Paul Harrel cool
I was just getting interested in handguns in the mid-80s and my first purchase was the S&W 645. All my gun freak friends were impressed with the smooth trigger out of the box and it is one I still have and probably will never sell. My next purchase was the P-85 which I got from a wild-life officer friend who moved on to one of the S&W 9mm models of the day. My main interest in the P-85 was it being Ruger's first stab into semi-auto center-fire pistols. Everything you ever heard about how horrendous the P-85 was is likely true with one of the worst triggers imaginable. It has been reliable and with some spring changes and a little polishing can be improved on but there are clearly better options. It's built like a tank and if you run out of ammo, it could make a serious dent in an attackers head. I suspect one reason the Glocks did not fare well in the FBI test was that in those days polymer frames were a relatively new concept and many simply didn't have faith in them. Polymer frames have since stood the test of time and those phobias have for the most part gone away.
I sliced my finger on something every time I fired that gun! Finally sold it to a carpenter friend who had huge callouses on his hands.
The HK USP proves just how tough a polymer framed handgun can be. Glocks may be tough, but the USP is on a totally different level. The testing that went into the development of the Mk 23 and USP is ridiculous. It’s worth a read sometime. Federal also has a USP that is used as a test gun that has fired over 200,000 rounds without a parts failure!
The 92 was pretty much Marine proof the 8 years I was in , the amount of abuse those pistol took was ridiculous. I think it got so much hate was it wasn’t in gods caliber and the guys with little sister hands wouldn’t shut up about it being to big in the grip 🤣
Those tiny hand guys would have shit themselves over a P89.
@@zacharyrollick6169 🤣
I loved my M9 when I was in the desert (USMC veteran here too). She kept me company every night and would eat whatever scraps I fed her. She wasn't picky or high maintenance. Sure she was as loose as a lady could be after being passed around generations of barracks. But she was reliable as .... and would send the bullets where I pointed them.
The M9 is great, but the HK USP is even better in my opinion. I first shot one when I was doing marksmanship qualification with the Bundeswehr (Schützenschnur) when I was stationed in Germany during my time
In the Army. I always shot expert with the M9, but it was amazing how much better I could shoot the USP (the Bundeswehr calls it the P8) than the M9. For my money, it’s the best combat handgun out there. I own and carry several different USPs to this day.
Never have had a single mishap or anything else go wrong with 3 different generations of the 17. Bar none imo, the best duty pistol period.
13.5 years city PD, 20+ years federal and counting....I had so much fun watching this video ! LMAO ! I can think back and attach people to the personalities you're describing ! Great objective look at things.
I saw some beat up Beretta M9's in the Army and the only failure I saw with one was a mag failure. Great gun.
I'm so surprised that the FBI was biased, would have never seen that coming.
I trust that’s sarcasm.
Bought my first Glock in 1988, with a letter from the Chief and a money order for $300 straight to Glock. They mailed the gun to me. Taught my self to strip out the non-drop fee mags. Everyone wanted to hold it and shoot it. In a few months there were now 6 Glocks. Then there were 10. Eventually, everyone had a Glock. Loved it and it never let me down.
Same year my mom bought a Glock 23. Nice little thing.
The trigger guard test was most likely done because of people bracing their guns on door jams and such, and possibly if you did it hard enough then feasibly it could damage the guard and make the trigger unworkable
They sound tires. Hopefully they’ve learned about round penetration in that area and often found near it.
That trigger guard "test" was BS. The amount of force needed to bend the SIG guard was FAR in excess of what would happen in ANY scenario in the field.@@bunk95
Didn't the FBI do a huge series of performance tests on different calibers of pistol ammunition after the Miami shootout fiasco? That event shook their confidence in the 9mm round and led them to unofficially state "Any caliber is OK as long as it starts with a 4". Where they promptly adopted the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm. The 10mm was too stout in recoil and ushered in the .40 S&W which pleased no one.
Johngaither...the .40 S&W round hardly "pleased nobody"... it's an acceptably powerful accurate round that has successfully served dozens of L.E. Agencies for years & years...
Analysis of the1986 Miami FBI Firefight lead to a lot changes and improvements in law enforcement.
You need to look this up no room her to correct all your errors.
The FBI did not adopt the Colt Delta elite. After a lot of ballistic tests they choose the 10 mm with 2 different power levels. The pistol they adopted was the S&W 1076 with a decocker similar to the Sig 226.
The powerful version of the 10mm was too much for many agents. But the lower power was developed into the .40 S&W. And for a long time the Glock 22 in .40 S&W became the USA police departments most popular gun
@@stever8776 My favorite part was when they started having accidental discharges with the 1076 on decocking.
@@MiJaHa The 1066 had a lot of problems. Including not being able to cock them, jamming plus the size was heavy. Grip was too big for those with smaller hands. If the FBI wanted a Sig, then they should have had Sig build it. They end up switching to the S&W 4006 variants.
I had a 1006 and a 1066. I got rid of the 1066 even though it had "all the upgrades to "fix" them per S&W. I never had problems with either. But I didn't trust them. Plus I started carrying Colt 1911A1s in 1980. I prefer the manual of arms on the them.
I went back to my Colt Gold Cup. I also bought a Delta Elite and changed out the recoil spring system to one made by Kings. I prefer a SAO vs a DA / SA.
@@stever8776 Whichever model it was, I also never understood why they went with 10mm & then had it downloaded by Federal to .45 specs. Why not just go to .45 in the first place?
My dad is a USFAM, and they just switched from Sig P226 357 to Glock 19 Gen 5 and he has the same issue with the Glock that you mention, he keeps riding the slide release, he had to learn how to grip it with out hitting that while shooting lol
Kagwerks fixed this
@@chap23305 he’s not allowed to add or change anything to it so he had to adapt
@@dualityofmorons that sucks! I guess I'm used to smaller departments and agencies where it's BYOG, vs bigger government agencies.
Unfortunately, I have the experience of killing four enemies with a .45 in combat in Vietnam. As a Marine I appreciated one round to the torso knocking them down at less than 20 yards. In civilian life, in law enforcement, I was forced to kill two armed individuals with a .9mm. I prefer the .45, but carry a .9mm Glock 48 concealed carry in retirement. At 72 I am still a good shot, but the recoil matters. The FBI, like most bureaucracies, is bogged down in details and committee decisions. If it were not for this chronic human problem the Marine Corps would still be carrying the M14 instead of the M4/M16.
You mean American humans quickly becoming pansies? Agreed
Thank you for your service.
Most of the issues with Glock malfunctions had to do with 9mm ammo not being as hot as the NATO 9mm it was built for. I carried the Glock 19 and 22 for 30 years as a state and fed. I retired as an FBI Special Agent and firearms instructor. If anyone does not believe the S&W did not have the fix in on that test, I have some prime swamp land in Florida to sell you. Many of the improvements over the decades for the Glock were made based on the FBI’s testing and recommendations to Glock. Even though those revolver guys poo-pooed the Glock in the 80’s, the FBI helped it to become the premier handgun in the world.
You mentioned a property in Florida for sale?? 😂
Glock doesn't authorize NATO spec ammo. It is higher pressure than the SAAMI stuff that the gun is built for. That is according to Glocks website as well as their manual. Also, if a gun can't shoot slightly out of tolerance ammo, isn't that a problem.
Glock does sell MIL/LEO only models. I assume they are built for NATO spec ammo?
Let's see... I go back to when Dean Grinnell started his work on the Super .45 around 1975. 9mm was extremely limited in its "knockdown" power. Hollow points were unreliable. Multiple shootings with suspects taking multiple hits "in the bottle" and they kept on going. However, from actual experience, I did see a 125 gr .357 hollow point fall out of the leg of a miscreant onto the gurney, then handed to me by a paramedic. I did the on-scene initial shooting report and booked the bullet into evidence. It did open up as designed. My Department moved to .45 after poor results from
shootings involving the 357. The 10 mm/40 cal was actually developed in conjunction with Jeff Cooper and the FBI (as I understand) not only from the Miami shooting. This involves the additional problem of female agents' inability to control the .45. Jeff promoted the .40 as the answer at that time.
Back to the meeting with Dean Grinnell. My cousin and I (he was also a LEO) were attempting to find a bullet that would penetrate a sloped windshield (not deflect off) as well as open up reliably against a human There was no such thing in hollow point available.
Working with Dean, we tested a large number of "hot" loads with Dean , who had just come up with his idea of a better .45 loading. The best all-around performance ended up being a 255 grain .453 lead Long Colt semi wadcutter moving at 1250 fps. The blunt nose and OD cutting edge would cut a .clean .45 hole. Paper targets/cardboard, water filled gallon plastic bottles, and large tomatoes all appeared to have been "hole punched" in testing. This meant the wound channel was an actual hole, not a wound in tissue that would "snap back" closed.
What this told us was that attempting to get a hollow point to both open up and penetrate at the lower pistol bullet energy levels was not possible.
Current day, the Underwood Super 45 xtreme defender 135 gr and 200 gr copper bullet cartridges work using the same principles as 255 gr wadcutters. In my opinion, 9mm still has the same issues of stopping power. The Underwood 9mm xtreme defender copper bullets use the cutting-edge concept used with .45 semi wad cutters.
I understand the thinking at the time about the FBI’s switch to .40 but do you have any idea why they switched from the G23 to the G22?
One of the factors contributing to the problems with the Glock may have been the early magazines. I had a buddy who was the Kennel Master out at MCAGCC 29 Palms. He bought a Glock 23 as soon as they were available. The 2 magazines that came with it were absolutely terrible. The early mags were polymer only. No metal liners. When you loaded them to full capacity, they'd bulge out and you had to fight to strip them out of the mag well. Later, when Glock redesigned them, the problem disappeared.
In fact, the FBI testing notes list magazine failures as one of the critical issues. The issue you and the FBI report describe was indeed a problem of early production Glocks.
It would be interesting to see the test report from the mid-90s when they adopted the Glock.
Thank you! You need more upvotes. I wanna see the change of heart
Part of that was that the DEA start issuing Glock 17's around 1991, and they use the same firearms ranges, cleaning rooms, armory, as the FBI. So the FBI got to see several years of field testing of Glocks by their next door neighbors at Quantico. In fact the first Glocks bought by the FBI, were just piggy backed on the DEA contract with Glock.
Great video, funny commentary
Beretta 92 RULES!
My three:
-Sig P226 in 40 S&W with Short Reset Trigger(SRT) and Action Enhancement Package(AEP).
-H&K USP40 LEM with LEM Light trigger spring kit.
-Glock 23 Gen5 with McNally trigger assembly and Ameriglo night sights.
Well my three when I didn't mind the extra weight. GP100 in border patrol holster, model 60 in crossdraw holster on left hip, NAA mini revolver in my pocket. Back when I was still on patrol I carried a model 28 converted to 44 spl in my border patrol, a 1911 in a shoulder holster under my jacket, and Sterling 380 in my pocket. Lead sap in a special pocket on the uniform pants, and a pig sticker in my boot. I could not bring myself to give damn about what the FBI thought, even in the 80's we considered them a pariah.
Excellent choices
I'm not buying the results from the P85. I have one that I bought in 1988. In the entire time I've owned it, it has had 1 single malfunction and that was magazine induced. The first 200 rounds I shot out of the box, without cleaning it, were lead reloads. The gun runs like a champ. Not a tack driver, just decent accuracy. I later added a P90 as well because the P85 worked so well.
I don't know about the 85 but I've had an 89 for many years and fired several thousand rounds through it. It was pretty well used when I bought it, too, though I have no way of knowing how many rounds the previous owner(s) put through it. No parts have ever failed on it and reliability with any ammo I've tried has always been excellent. 🤷♂️
I'd like to know how they found more than one Ruger that would fail such a test. Ruger has a matter of course generally requires all their semi-autos that they designed 25,000 rounds without cleaning without any malfunction before they even release it to be sold. I happen to know a gentleman who helped them design that pistol, he's a master gunsmith and although you could find some ammo that the Ruger didn't like, when you had ammo there work well it was almost impossible to make it fail. You can also judge by the number of times you've ever seen one being repaired
Massad Ayoob spoke very highly of the Ruger P-series. They're not the prettiest or the nicest-finished but they're built like tanks and surprisingly accurate. He liked the P-series so much he selected them as his department's duty gun when he was a police officer. He's shot every gun under the Sun and could have recommended anything.
I bought my first Glock when there was only one. I have been checked by many range officers to see if I was shooting a full auto. I am still carrying this gun. Glock 17's rule!
(x) doubt
Why the hate for Glocks I do not understand. They always work and are accurate.
Flex
turns out you "accidentally" bought a glock 18, and the range officers thought it was a 17. "dayum son, that's a pretty fast finger ya got there"
My dad bought a gen 2 Glock17 back in 1990 & he still has it to this day & works flawlessly.
In the 90's a few episodes of the X-Files had Mulder carrying a Sig. Later on he switched to the glock. My 14yo self really wanted that Sig... A few years later I really wanted Monica Reyes on the show instead, but I digress...
Interesting. Also interesting the FBI went on to adopt the 1076 a few years later--which, I guess, shares a lineage with the 645, in that it uses Smith's big-bore frame design, like the 4506, etc. For me, the Beretta 92 is the best "natural" shooter, all things considered. Though, I think the Smith 59XX makes a strong case, because it's a bit smaller all around and--I think--has a better DA pull than a 92.
Had a Smith 6906 and I loved that gun. Worked in a gun store from '85-92', sold a shit ton of beretta 92"s and the Taurus clones. About '96 I actually shot a beretta 92 and holy shit is that gun probably the most natural pointing pistol I've ever shot, by a skoosh over my browning hp
Nice! I have a 6904 (the blued version of the 6906) and I love it. The compact 69XX Smiths are a fantastic balance of size and shootability. But yeah, the Beretta 92 is just… special. I have itty bitty little hands, too-It feels freakin’ great to me.
I enjoyed this and am looking forward to the followup video on the IRS' favorite...
Carried a Glock 17 as a duty weapon for 18 years, never had a malfunction of any kinds. It functioned properly everytime I had to utilize it. Still carrying a Glock 23 post retirement. Gotta love a Glock.
If you haven't had a malfunction with a Glock you haven't shot enough.
@@christoth3908 You have had a lot of malfunctions? Hmm..doggies
Everyone is butt.hurt over glock!
James, l too am a Ruger P85/89 lover. I packed my P85 on duty as a Reserve Deputy in a rural county in northeastern California for years (much to the chagrin and catcalls of my partners). There was one instance where my P85 nearly failed me. Early in m Reserve career l went to qualify with the guys and l couldn't get it to work. I'd fire a round then the piece wouldn't go into battery, and l had to push the slide forward with a rap. I examined the pistol and saw that the slide was bone dry. I had been carrying the thing off duty in a fanny pack and had let the maintenance slide. Bad call. So, at the range and still trying to qualify l went over to my truck, pulled the dipstick (not having a cleaning kit with me...of course) and smeared the black dirty oil up and down the slide and rails. The P85 then ran like a charm. Lesson learned, regular maintenance begun. Stupid youth left behind. Which calls to mind your FBI testing video, where the Ruger failed so badly. If you keep the gun clean and well lubed...you'll stay in the fight. I think those FBI testers ran the Ruger dry and had the same result l had. I properly maintain all my guns now, even the ones that supposedly can run forever on low maintenence. Now my duty weapon is an SR9, and it never fails. You run a great show. Keep it up.
The 645 had a great reputation for being solidly reliable on the street. The FBI 45 debate and preference to the larger round over the 9mm I believe was based on the fact that if neither hollow point bullet expanded, at least the 45 made the bigger wound channel (in gel) and didn’t tend to over penetrate as much. Ironically, when this study was conducted, the other agency that trained at Quantico was issuing the Glocks to academy classes and the Immigration and Naturalization Service, including Border Patrol was either allowing or on the verge of allowing personally owned G17s and 19s for official duty. Customs too. Incidentally, if the Glock 19 was around in 1987, it was the rare Gen 1 version and possibly even preproduction. I know that if they’d been readily available in 87, I would have bought one over the 17.