To be fair, I always thought that Warhammer (or at least the Empire) break the trope a bit. Things are getting better in the Empire, new technology makes fighting their uncountable enemies a bit easier, new scientific discoveries with unlimited potential are being made (the gold order has discovered the periodic table for example ) and a new intellectual protoilustration is starting to brew in the great cities like Altdorf or Nuln. It's a pity that GW never fully committed to explore this side of the lore more.
This idea of the past being better than the present goes at least as far back as Classical Greece. Their cosmogony included the notion that humanity as a whole is living in the third age, the least of the ages thus far.
I know I'm a bit two years late for this comment. But a good take on tolkien vision of Past is well develop by (you quoted him in the video) George R. R. Martin in the world building of Elden Ring: the game's core ideas focus on this common trope of a Glorious Past era, but as you dig deep into the lore you learn that nothing in the age of Queen Marika before the shatering was any near the romanticized version presented to us at first. Martin Also does that with the Song of Ice and Fire Books: in Fire and Blood, witch is written by a Maester narrating the events of the Dance of The Dragons you see a lot of mentions to how people change their perspective on the past. Basically the nostalgia trap: we romanticize a past era wich was as bad and full of trouble as the time we're living now. The Wisecrack video on the Philosofy of Elden Ring has very good insights from historians on that Theory and quote a lot on those Tolkien's Ideas. Definitively worth checking out.
i feel like talking about this stuff is kind of taboo in the wfb and 40k community and im happy to have found a channel that is talking about this stuff, keep up the good work
Thanks. I think getting to the bottom of the narrative structures, tropes and hidden gems of lore is super important, especially as a game master. More coming soon. Thanks for a sub!
Your leap of logic in retaking the past is mistaken. Part of the idea is the very world itself is decaying. It can’t be taken back, it’s gone. That is part of the nostalgia and longing. I miss my grandfather but he has passed. I can’t blame someone else and try to reclaim him. That leap of logic doesn’t actually make sense. Similarly the past had a certain quality to it which is now gone and diminished, something separate from progress. Like with the example I mentioned above, I used to have my grandfather, but there is more than just that. Through him I also have a more direct connection to the past. He has lived through those events and knew people who have now passed which I had a more direct link to through him. With him gone, such things are more distant. There are things in the past that matter and there is a connection to them which diminishes with time, irrespective of progress. There is also more to that idea of a certain quality to the past. It seems like with each successive generation people get worse. An example being how old people always complain about young people. You could interpret that as people getting worse or old folk being bitter, but I am inclined to the prior more than dismissing it out of hand as the latter. First, older people have more experience and typically more wisdom and should be respected because of it. Second, they were once young themselves. If it is just old people being old then why wouldn’t they remember that from when they were young and still hold that position? We also have those tales of the people of days past being much tougher too. We ourselves are diminishing with the world. Finally, I have another thing to say about the people of the past. It isn’t all just them being stronger in the past, and there is some value to romanticizing the past to an extent. There is another factor which is those we often hear about are those who were exemplary, the one in a million kind of people. With time, iron rusts away, but gold remains. I’m not saying all things were good or better back then, but what we still have is worth looking up to as examples and role models today. Something to strive for. People who would be exemplary in any age. For me, as an American, I look up to the founding fathers who fought for freedom and liberty or in the civil war those who fought and died to make men free or those men who fought in world war 2 against the evil of the nazis. They are strong and virtuous men we should all look up to and strive to be like. Looking back on the good of the past provides us with examples we can look back at to propel us forward, strive to new heights, and be the best we can be. There is value in remembering the heroes of the past, in remembering what has not rusted away with time but endures.
To be fair, the 1920s were definitely better than the 1930s and 1940s, due to the latter having the events of the Great Depression and World War 2. However, the 1950s were arguably better than any other decade before it. It would be wrong to say that history progresses or declines, as both are possibilities depending on the time and place. And let us not forget the inevitability of human extinction at some point in the future.
Only villains in Tolkien say "You are a lesser son, of greater sires". No, the progress of Tolkein is accepting the mantle from godly beings of times gone by. The power of the "old gods" is fading, and soon will be expended. Normal people are what ultimately defeat the evil of history, and redeem the world. The "Great Men of History" is real. Dismissing the idea outright is utterly foolish. The reality is that while history is a river, some people of sufficient impact may alter that course, through herculean effort... for good or ill. Historians then go and tell everyone that it was obvious that something played out the way it did, and think no more of it.
One reason I like the Dwarfs in Warhammer fantasy is that they are the ages theory taken to it's logical (or illogical rather) conclusion, they sit around unable to forget their greatest triumphs and defeats and march to retake every lost hold as if they still have the manpower to do so. They're a tragic example of how damning that hardcore conservative mindset is.
In my own post endtimes canon I consider the hold dwarfs mostly extinct and the bulk of the race is Imperial Dwarfs who have had to adopt a slightly more human outlook to continue on into the future. Also as a sidenote preventing the end times as a plot point does make an interesting counter to the ages theory in Warhammer as it is heavily implied the Empire will continue to industrialize and grow, perhaps eventually beating the elder races of Dwarfs and Elves in many ways regardless of their ability to make really cool enchanted things.
It’s a bit off topic for your channel but I wouldn’t mind hearing more about your analysis of how history is represented in GoT. That setting is so relentlessly grimdark that it doesn’t seem like there ever was a “golden age” just various levels of sustained misery.
Excellent video and superb editing. could you in the future dive deeper into GMing a warhammer game? like pacing, encounters, plot etc. there are so many D&D channels but you're the only worthy one doing WFRP content, and I feel this game demands another mindset than D&D from the GM and the players.
It creates great campaign opportunities if planned with a GM. I also feel like it is great and there is a lot of merit to an updated system in the 4th edition
@@heymay724 I am still flattered. Thanks for your support. I will free up more time to work on the vids. The next one will not be in 3 month hopefully :)
HAHAHAHA, the Zizek sniff got me good! Really great analysis! Loved hearing a nice take on fantasy lore, and it was nice hearing a lore video being read by someone who isn't a nasaly little british fash with shitty takes.
You don't know your GoT history man, the rule of the Targaryen was everything, but golden. Civil wars occurred at least every second generation and the life of the average person probably didn't change a bit over the course of their three hundred year reign. The reign of the Baratheons was actually called a golden age in the Book the World of Ice and Fire. Yes, it is true that during the time of the books live is bad, but that's just the case, because of the civil war and also the appearance of the white walkers. Sorry, if I sound rude.
They had like, two major civil wars, those being the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellion, and before the Targaryens took over Westeros it was a collection of petty warlords who constantly fought one another.
Think of it this way, the Targaryen's had something that can no longer be had in Dragons - which created the actual 7 Kingdoms in the first place, and they themselves were the second and worse iteration of the Valyrians who had way more dragons and could make Valyrian steel, something which can no longer be made but is widely desired. The ages theory of Tolkien is clearly shown in the Song of Ice and Fire universe.
good lord you do not understand any of the philosophical ideas you talk about in this. you understand pretty telegraphed parallels between two popular lore sets. but your worldview, which bleeds through this tons, is pablum. and your understanding of these ideas you talk about, for example, how you think its accurate to claim that a view of history progressing in a bad direction is pessimistic, or how you leave out the synthesis of his dialectic of history, which is positive in the extreme. I can tell you are a progressive by the specific confusions you have demonstrated here. You may deny being one, by you deny it on a spectrum where everything on it is one, but they all nitpick and quibble about where the line is and what other names the other things should be. he was making value statements within an objective framework which transcended socio-cultural relativism, you're making a claim at progress and things going a good way, from within the framework of the current time's mores, presuppositions, socio-cultural milieu, etc. In other words, its a foregone conclusion that you think things are morally superior to in the past, because that is a characteristic of this age, and you're confined in your thinking to that singular paradigm, and then through that lens assessing someone who was very much not, and being like "what gives?" lol SMH
cue people who have an equally elementary understanding of philosophy getting mad at me for telling them something they thought was wise and insightful is surface level pap, and raging at me.
@@justinheads5751 Maybe I would if you had an elemetary understand of sentence structuring and punctuation because I have no ideas of what you are talking about.
![Kumamoto Masters Japan 2024 | Gregoria Mariska Tunjung (INA) [5] vs. Akane Yamaguchi (JPN) [2] | F](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EIjZybhsWqA/mqdefault.jpg)
To be fair, I always thought that Warhammer (or at least the Empire) break the trope a bit. Things are getting better in the Empire, new technology makes fighting their uncountable enemies a bit easier, new scientific discoveries with unlimited potential are being made (the gold order has discovered the periodic table for example ) and a new intellectual protoilustration is starting to brew in the great cities like Altdorf or Nuln. It's a pity that GW never fully committed to explore this side of the lore more.
This idea of the past being better than the present goes at least as far back as Classical Greece. Their cosmogony included the notion that humanity as a whole is living in the third age, the least of the ages thus far.
Love that little Žižek sniffle and so on and so on
I know I'm a bit two years late for this comment. But a good take on tolkien vision of Past is well develop by (you quoted him in the video) George R. R. Martin in the world building of Elden Ring: the game's core ideas focus on this common trope of a Glorious Past era, but as you dig deep into the lore you learn that nothing in the age of Queen Marika before the shatering was any near the romanticized version presented to us at first. Martin Also does that with the Song of Ice and Fire Books: in Fire and Blood, witch is written by a Maester narrating the events of the Dance of The Dragons you see a lot of mentions to how people change their perspective on the past. Basically the nostalgia trap: we romanticize a past era wich was as bad and full of trouble as the time we're living now. The Wisecrack video on the Philosofy of Elden Ring has very good insights from historians on that Theory and quote a lot on those Tolkien's Ideas. Definitively worth checking out.
i feel like talking about this stuff is kind of taboo in the wfb and 40k community and im happy to have found a channel that is talking about this stuff, keep up the good work
Thanks. I think getting to the bottom of the narrative structures, tropes and hidden gems of lore is super important, especially as a game master. More coming soon. Thanks for a sub!
Your leap of logic in retaking the past is mistaken. Part of the idea is the very world itself is decaying. It can’t be taken back, it’s gone. That is part of the nostalgia and longing. I miss my grandfather but he has passed. I can’t blame someone else and try to reclaim him. That leap of logic doesn’t actually make sense.
Similarly the past had a certain quality to it which is now gone and diminished, something separate from progress. Like with the example I mentioned above, I used to have my grandfather, but there is more than just that. Through him I also have a more direct connection to the past. He has lived through those events and knew people who have now passed which I had a more direct link to through him. With him gone, such things are more distant. There are things in the past that matter and there is a connection to them which diminishes with time, irrespective of progress.
There is also more to that idea of a certain quality to the past. It seems like with each successive generation people get worse. An example being how old people always complain about young people. You could interpret that as people getting worse or old folk being bitter, but I am inclined to the prior more than dismissing it out of hand as the latter. First, older people have more experience and typically more wisdom and should be respected because of it. Second, they were once young themselves. If it is just old people being old then why wouldn’t they remember that from when they were young and still hold that position? We also have those tales of the people of days past being much tougher too. We ourselves are diminishing with the world.
Finally, I have another thing to say about the people of the past. It isn’t all just them being stronger in the past, and there is some value to romanticizing the past to an extent. There is another factor which is those we often hear about are those who were exemplary, the one in a million kind of people. With time, iron rusts away, but gold remains. I’m not saying all things were good or better back then, but what we still have is worth looking up to as examples and role models today. Something to strive for. People who would be exemplary in any age. For me, as an American, I look up to the founding fathers who fought for freedom and liberty or in the civil war those who fought and died to make men free or those men who fought in world war 2 against the evil of the nazis. They are strong and virtuous men we should all look up to and strive to be like. Looking back on the good of the past provides us with examples we can look back at to propel us forward, strive to new heights, and be the best we can be. There is value in remembering the heroes of the past, in remembering what has not rusted away with time but endures.
So even a human could do what Malekith could not. Passing through flames unscathed really shows the purity of the person involved
This was awesome. Can you do more analyses of Warhammer lore along these lines?
I can't stop myself from doing it tbh :)
To be fair, the 1920s were definitely better than the 1930s and 1940s, due to the latter having the events of the Great Depression and World War 2. However, the 1950s were arguably better than any other decade before it. It would be wrong to say that history progresses or declines, as both are possibilities depending on the time and place. And let us not forget the inevitability of human extinction at some point in the future.
What extinction of humanity are you talking about?
Great video, its abreath of fresh air nor having someone like arch talking about these things
Thanks!
Only villains in Tolkien say "You are a lesser son, of greater sires".
No, the progress of Tolkein is accepting the mantle from godly beings of times gone by. The power of the "old gods" is fading, and soon will be expended. Normal people are what ultimately defeat the evil of history, and redeem the world.
The "Great Men of History" is real. Dismissing the idea outright is utterly foolish. The reality is that while history is a river, some people of sufficient impact may alter that course, through herculean effort... for good or ill. Historians then go and tell everyone that it was obvious that something played out the way it did, and think no more of it.
Somewhere here R.S.Bakkers Second apokalypse should be mentioned
One reason I like the Dwarfs in Warhammer fantasy is that they are the ages theory taken to it's logical (or illogical rather) conclusion, they sit around unable to forget their greatest triumphs and defeats and march to retake every lost hold as if they still have the manpower to do so. They're a tragic example of how damning that hardcore conservative mindset is.
In my own post endtimes canon I consider the hold dwarfs mostly extinct and the bulk of the race is Imperial Dwarfs who have had to adopt a slightly more human outlook to continue on into the future. Also as a sidenote preventing the end times as a plot point does make an interesting counter to the ages theory in Warhammer as it is heavily implied the Empire will continue to industrialize and grow, perhaps eventually beating the elder races of Dwarfs and Elves in many ways regardless of their ability to make really cool enchanted things.
Great video. Love the metal segment, best part.
It’s a bit off topic for your channel but I wouldn’t mind hearing more about your analysis of how history is represented in GoT. That setting is so relentlessly grimdark that it doesn’t seem like there ever was a “golden age” just various levels of sustained misery.
Great video! What is the name of the music track around 1:40?
Hey! It is from Mount and Blade: Warband soundtrack
Excellent video and superb editing. could you in the future dive deeper into GMing a warhammer game? like pacing, encounters, plot etc. there are so many D&D channels but you're the only worthy one doing WFRP content, and I feel this game demands another mindset than D&D from the GM and the players.
Yeah I agree. I am doing a couple of vids that are more about speciifially WFRP. Thank you!
@@QuinsberryLodge Thanks for the reply!
1st edition warhamner fantasy roleplay is awesome, start as a ratcatcher or chimney sweep awesome leveling system
It creates great campaign opportunities if planned with a GM. I also feel like it is great and there is a lot of merit to an updated system in the 4th edition
Good vid man, keep'em cming!
Thanks!
Excellent!
Thanks a lot!
Good video! Much better then arch
Dude... That is such a good compliment! Thanks!
@@QuinsberryLodge Oh its nothing Im just a random fart. I just hope you become semi popular quickly
@@heymay724 I am still flattered. Thanks for your support. I will free up more time to work on the vids. The next one will not be in 3 month hopefully :)
I'm 100% pro order.
Voshititelno!!!!
Spasibo!
Soglasen, potryasausche!
HAHAHAHA, the Zizek sniff got me good!
Really great analysis! Loved hearing a nice take on fantasy lore, and it was nice hearing a lore video being read by someone who isn't a nasaly little british fash with shitty takes.
Thanks a lot! Hope you like the other video as well. Also more comming soon!
@@HerneHunter Oh you know who I mean
The one calling on the Sami genocide in his Discord.
You don't know your GoT history man, the rule of the Targaryen was everything, but golden. Civil wars occurred at least every second generation and the life of the average person probably didn't change a bit over the course of their three hundred year reign.
The reign of the Baratheons was actually called a golden age in the Book the World of Ice and Fire.
Yes, it is true that during the time of the books live is bad, but that's just the case, because of the civil war and also the appearance of the white walkers.
Sorry, if I sound rude.
And you are right that Tolkien is wrong about history.
They had like, two major civil wars, those being the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellion, and before the Targaryens took over Westeros it was a collection of petty warlords who constantly fought one another.
Think of it this way, the Targaryen's had something that can no longer be had in Dragons - which created the actual 7 Kingdoms in the first place, and they themselves were the second and worse iteration of the Valyrians who had way more dragons and could make Valyrian steel, something which can no longer be made but is widely desired. The ages theory of Tolkien is clearly shown in the Song of Ice and Fire universe.
This is some Hegelian bullshittery XD
12:56 this feels pro capitalistic
good lord you do not understand any of the philosophical ideas you talk about in this. you understand pretty telegraphed parallels between two popular lore sets. but your worldview, which bleeds through this tons, is pablum. and your understanding of these ideas you talk about, for example, how you think its accurate to claim that a view of history progressing in a bad direction is pessimistic, or how you leave out the synthesis of his dialectic of history, which is positive in the extreme. I can tell you are a progressive by the specific confusions you have demonstrated here. You may deny being one, by you deny it on a spectrum where everything on it is one, but they all nitpick and quibble about where the line is and what other names the other things should be. he was making value statements within an objective framework which transcended socio-cultural relativism, you're making a claim at progress and things going a good way, from within the framework of the current time's mores, presuppositions, socio-cultural milieu, etc. In other words, its a foregone conclusion that you think things are morally superior to in the past, because that is a characteristic of this age, and you're confined in your thinking to that singular paradigm, and then through that lens assessing someone who was very much not, and being like "what gives?" lol SMH
cue people who have an equally elementary understanding of philosophy getting mad at me for telling them something they thought was wise and insightful is surface level pap, and raging at me.
Ok
@@justinheads5751 Maybe I would if you had an elemetary understand of sentence structuring and punctuation because I have no ideas of what you are talking about.