Thanks for watching everyone, tried something a bit different today so please let me know your thoughts! There's a lot more to these reactions (as well as Heeew's original video) that I cut out of this, so if you were watching and thinking "I wish there was more of X person's video to watch," today's your lucky day. I've got them all linked below, please be sure to check them out as well. *Main channel:* ruclips.net/user/mockrocktv *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/ *Coney:* ruclips.net/video/IUtJHzq9U_A/видео.html *Heeew:* ruclips.net/video/MjSf1wFW1VA/видео.html *Hungrybox:* ruclips.net/video/QG34JehWHuU/видео.html *Panda:* ruclips.net/video/_1KRrfbCdYo/видео.html
Monado Purge is a thing FROM Xenoblade Chronicles. Its effect is pretty simple--there are a few enemies that deal damage to you when you attack them, and some that avoid Shulk's ability to read the future. Monado Purge deactivates these for a while. Not at all how it's used in SSB, but I have to admit it's a fucking awesome name.
I've thought about doing something meme-related, the thing is that "Smash Memes But I Take Them Way Too Seriously" was actually an absurd amount of work haha, definitely outside the scope I want for MockRockTalk. We'll see though, I may do something in that ballpark.
The "counterpick" era of Smash 4's meta was absolutely something I would wish to come back and was a large portion of why I got into competitive Smash. The wacky nature of custom moves worked perfectly banned from a competitive setting, I feel. They ABSOLUTELY should've been better implemented to provide an interesting dynamic for many characters, and them being a pain in the ass to unlock (I never got more than like, 20% of them, even with all the time I spent playing Smash 4) made them impossible to be well received, but messing around with them was fun and I will stand by that. And yes, Coney is absolutely the most entertaining Smash creator, and it's not even close.
Coney is pretty good for his ability to add to whatever it is he's reacting to. Pretty often 20 seconds of what he's watching will trigger some story or discussion with chat.
@@zacharywoloszynski4258 demeaning comments, jokes at other people's expenses, pretending he knows everything and that his opinion is always correct And if you write it off as joking, I wonder how many times you have to see it to believe it, because the only time he's not like that is when he's commentating
This is just a fun trip down memory lane, from the jank of Smash 4 to the reactions of the others. Especially Coney and Hbox who both made some good points. Also we stan Mii Smawler.
I honestly think that Mega Man would have been a better character to showcase custom moves than Palutena and should have had all of his unlocked from the start, considering that Mega Man is well-known for being able to use Special Weapons in his home series. It's truly a tragedy that those custom moves weren't carried over to Ultimate, as they really did flesh out Mega Man and represented his home series.
Plus his were different enough while still being similar to his base movesets to better represent customs than palu But palu has sakuri bias so he never stood a chance
Bit of S4 lore for y’all, the 3ds and Wii U versions are able to connect and share some bits of data with each other. One of those things is custom move load outs. Instead of getting all 400 special moves on 100 Wii U’s, for Evo, you get all of the moves on 1 3ds and make all of the move sets on that and transfer it to the Wii U version however many times it takes. You also mentioned footstools. While a lot of characters have footstool set ups, many being off of throws. Footstools we’re far more common in doubles. A lot of the best doubles teams use footstools to trap you in infinite ToD combos. You get grabbed once, or get jab reset once and your stock is gone. It’s even less interactive than getting Bayo comboed in singles.
Another Sm4sh video? Another excuse for me to talk about Bayo At 29:56 Sinji was either SDIing up but lazily, or down really hard. The stupid part is that he had to SDI down or he would die off the top, but SDI down would also just a combo easier to connect since Bayo has so much rage. If he went up and away, he would just rocket out of up b and die off the top cause of rage. Literally nothing to do there lmao 31:12 regarding this patch, it hit all the glaring problems of Bayo. Issue was that Bayos had discovered things to counteract the nerfs long before that patch. SDI heavily affects her combos? Switch to fair strings and fair 1-up air loops to make up the damage. DABK no longer combos? Use it as the best landing tool in the game instead. ABK has higher knockback growth, so a kill combo at high % is harder to find? Just fish for dtilt up air lol. All of this was already known by Bayos, but saw no use because it was just redundant when a standard Bayo combo worked just as well but easier.
I love Coney's reactions, and his reaction to the Brawl version is even better. But I find his point on the parasocial relationships in this series. The sheer variety of games represented really makes some people defensive on their favorite vs the actual in game style or tiers.
coney spitting truths. i am a true believer that cloud was genuinely worse for the game than bayo. people just remember the worst bayo times way more clearly than cloud's constant oppression and brokeness.
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 Smash 4 Cloud is more broken IMO. He's way easier to use, combo, kill, and limit is just fucking ridiculous. And honestly I don't really feel Pyra/Mythra are as oppressive even in Mid Levels when Min Min, R.O.B., Roy, and Sonic exists.
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 oh? In my circles I was a dumbass for saying it haha. Glad to hear that wasn't the case everywhere. I think joker and snake are worse for mid level play than pythra, personally. But I think there is a lot of room to disagree in ultimate.
It’s really interesting. While I’m not certain Smash 4 Bayonetta would be the best character in the game if you just transplanted her into Ultimate, I AM pretty certain that Smash 4 Cloud WOULD. Even though I think Smash 4 Bayo is significantly better IN Smash 4.
@@theillusionist1494 i can see that, for sure. I think the biggest thing is that the two are much closer than people ever really talked about. Cuz if bayo was that overpowered your statement about cloud in ultimate would not hold up at all. But I definitely see what you mean.
Agreed. While Bayonetta ruined high/top level Sm4sh, Cloud ruined mid/low level play and completely killed the doubles scene (while still being oppressive in both high and top level play).
You know what I miss? Pre-Cloud doubles. Smash 4 doubles was such an amazing era, it was extremely fun and the meta was really different. Still remember the Ryo and Sol team, my favorite doubles team.
Half of the top tiers in Smash 4 really did revolve around “how consistently can you kill someone at ludicrously low percents” and not gonna lie, a small, sadistic/masochistic part of me kinda misses it Also Shulk’s Monado Purge 50/50 got its name cuz in Xenoblade there’s a Monado Art called Purge, which is also green like Jump
28:41 Interesting perspective on this idea. Back when I was at the age where I ate playdough and jumped around the school playground like I was Mario, I played Brawl. And you would think because of that mario part that I would gravitate to him, but weirdly, I instead gravitated towards Lucas. Now I have never heard of anything Mother/Earthbound related beforehand, but I was a big fan of something seemingly unrelated: Peanuts, and specifically Charlie Brown. I really related to him at that age because I felt like I found someone that goes through the similar troubles in life as I do. And then you have Lucas, who in Subspace, is actually one of the few characters to go through an arch. From someone who was too scared to save a person that saved him (Ness) into someone that’s willing to try and save a friend that simply stuck by his side (Pkmn trainer). That arch meant alot to me because I could see myself going through something similar. Of course, I could have dropped Lucas at any point between then and now in Ultimate, but I didn’t because that initial connection is still there and no other character perfectly replicated the way he plays in my eyes because of that connection (Also even back then I was kind of a hipster that liked picking things like characters that were mostly unpopular).
9:11 This is my favorite part from the Coney video lmfaooo I remember dying when I got to that part. He’s the perfect amount of knowledgeable and hilarious for our community
22:30 Monado Purge is a Monado Art from Xenoblade Chronicles, which the combo happens to somewhat resemble. Blame Monolith Soft for making it sound too full of itself. Otherwise great video Smash 4 will always have a special place in my heart
Outside of Palutena, Mega Man also got custom moves that were more than just a slight power/speed variation, actually changing a lot of his projectiles
"Smash4 is broken" videos honestly should go over every individual era of patches. From the early days of the infamous hoo-ha and shield insane back-air. To Shiek's 50/50 kill confirm. To New Mewtwo being freaking awesome
I want to say, as a Smash 4 Zelda main who loved every second of it, the reason I and a few Zelda mains I knew didn't name her Throw Confirm like other mains did is because we already had a broken kill move with a funny name that the entire player-based hated us for because "Ew why can a bottom-tier do that" and we didn't want to make it any worse lmao But it is true tho, Elevator (Zelda's Up-B out of shield) was the kind of absolute goat cheese that I'm sure made people quit the game. Total highway robbery and I loved it.
29:45 it wasn't that he died because of his SDI, it was because he got hit by Witch Strike. Bayonetta's Witch Twist has a single hitbox at around her knees which comes out on frame 6, in Sm4sh it's frame 4, that sends you up to the rest of the move's hitboxes. After this hitbox comes out, there's a couple of frames where there are no hitboxes at all. If you happen to get the single hit of up-b only, your opponent will get sent straight up and it can kill you since that single hit has more knockback than the last hit of Witch Twist; you also cant DI nor SDI so it makes it even better. This tech is called Witch Strike, it's taken from the same move in Bayonetta 2 where it's essentially just a single hit Witch Twist. She can still do this in Ultimate. If you're good enough to get it consistently, you can kill characters at 30% after the hit but it is extremely difficult to get so no need to worry.
34:36 well... that's mostly accurate, though there was one major exception: Mega Man. Almost all of his custom moves were fairly unique projectile options that deviated in drastic ways from their original counterparts (as a quick example, Fspecial either gave you Crash Bombs, the Ice Slasher (slow projectile the froze opponents), and the Danger Wrap (Explosive projectile the traveled in an upwards arc))
I feel like smash 4 cloud and bayo are similar to 64 kirby and pikachu. Kirby and cloud were both amazing characters that were also insanely easy to use, but they had their flaws. Pikachu and bayo were both harder but had almost no flaws. Kirby and cloud both have bad and exploitable recoveries. Pikachu and bayo had the best recoveries in their games.
At first I only skimmed the title and thought this was gonna be a standard reaction to the original video, but then the thumbnail made me confused until I realized. This is great.
34:30 palutena being primarily designed around customs also led to her have one of the blandest set of specials in the entire series with her default set (seriously? a counter AND a reflector that did no damage as separate moves?)
I think a lot of the discourse around miis was due to their size (small brawler and gunner were honestly a hate crime before they got patched), and then their moveset got wrapped into the discourse too. I remember when this all happened it was less "the miis get to pick their moveset grrrr" and more "I don't wanna die to dthrow fair helikick at 20 bc this fast little fuck grabbed me from accros the stage at the speed of light." What enabled brawler cheese was the small version having the best initial dash and like 4th best air speed and full jump in the game. But more people thought that helikick (and also tbh grenade and faint jump were stupid too) was the problem, so both issues were fixed by the medium sized, 1111 ruleset.
29:10 oh I totally believe there's a character culture around Smash. The "____ for Smash" campaigns got absolutely wild. When you looked at the most frequently requested characters by fans, I personally thought so many of them would have made for lousy picks. But I generally kept my mouth shut during those as I didn't want to dunk on someone's favorite character and also I prefer to avoid dumb online fights. XD
Since you're apparently unaware of this, shulk's up throw to up air is called Monado Purge because it's an actual move he does with the monado. In fact, it uses the exact same green color of the smash jump art, and it involved Shulk jumping to "purge" the enemies' buff, except the smash version purged stocks lmao
Everyone talks about ultimate Bowser, but nobody mentions that he was significantly buffed in sm4sh. Bowser even had amazing custom moves (namely dash slash and the fireball). Combine that with the *busted* badge system, and you could craft a Bowser that can easily kill at 30%. Casual Bowser was an absolute NIGHTMARE and I loved it, which is why I've been maining him since, even into ultimate.
I remember picking mii brawler to farm unlockables and actually started playing against my friends using my creation. I had the highest win rate by a wide margin, but no one believed me when I kept saying brawler is a hidden top tier.
Super Smash Con 2019 really demonstrated how most of its top players turned on it after Ultimate. Many of its best players who entered ended up DQing, such as Void, Nairo, and even MkLeo (the latter straight up tweeted "Smash4 is so bad lol" and didn't even bother playing a set in bracket). While the first three Smash titles still have their individual charm and quirks, Smash 4 just kinda felt obsolete after Ultimate, since it was basically a messy trial run for it.
I always felt Ganondorf was arguably better in Sm4sh but because of many jank reasons Like yeah Ganoncide killed you first and all but a lot of people always glossed over magnet hands, which if I recall correctly Ganondorf had some *nasty* magnet hands.
23:17 i dont think anyone has, or ever will complain about ultimate being way too offense based... mostly because it isnt and steve, min min, olimar, snake, samus, sonic, and many other campy characters are high tiers in this game, some climbing to top tier as the meta progresses *looking at steve*
I think Smash 4's reputation is partially a victim of losing recency bias but lacking nostalgia bias. Brawl was talked about extremely poorly for a very long time after Smash 4's release, and I suspect the same will happen to Ultimate when Smash 6 comes out.
I somewhat agree with you on the recency and nostalgia bias. Thing is Brawl also had more going for it outside of normal smash gameplay, while I don't think anyone praised Smash Tour. Smash 4 also came out on a failed console meaning there are less people nostalgic for it. I think the complaints about gameplay is overblown and a lot of it will be forgotten as time goes on but it won't be looked back at as fondly. I do agree the same will happen to Ultimate once the next smash is announced and people are tired of... whatever people complain about in Ultimate.
@@nocturn333 True about Brawl having more going on. I think casual and semi-competitive players will have decent nostalgia for the 3DS version at least, which did have cooler side modes like Smash Run and StreetSmash.
Smash 4 was definitely broken, but I have a soft spot for it as well, given that it was also my first time getting into the more competitive side of Smash. I had a lot of fun and have many fond memories, but Ultimate's engine is so wildly different that I literally can't go back to 4 because I literally don't remember how to play my main in Smash 4 - Greninja - anymore, despite doing that for 5000 hours over the course of many years, because I play Greninja so much differently in Ultimate. I'm sure I could get that muscle memory back if I wanted to, but... well, I don't lol. Still, I'm really thankful that Smash 4 walked so that Ultimate could run, and while it was full of cheese, it was an endearing kind of cheese that you can laugh about in hindsight.
The Mii bit with CONEY lowkey triggered me lol I think Miis should have been handled like they were in Ultimate for Smash 4 tournaments. Maybe even have them be regular sized if they were so worried about small Mii Brawler running rampant. But iirc there were a couple counterpicks for it. I also think that even if it had a lot of cheese, Smash 4 I wouldn't say was the worse of the previous titles. Hitstun that lasts a year in 64, anyone?
Compound the high hitstun on top of the fact that DI wasn't a thing in Smash 64 and you have a game where all of the good characters have playstyles which somewhat emulates Bayonetta.
Smash 4 will always be special to me for the convention tournaments I played in, not specifically Smash focused but knowing I had the crowd cheering for me one year because I picked Falcon in 2015 or placing Top 16 as Link in 2018, Smash 4 holds a special place in my heart for those reasons. Also I physically tensed up hearing "Hoo hah".
I have an interesting personal experience with this game, because I was young enough at the time where I really just enjoyed it with family members, I wasn’t on the internet and stuff so I never even knew custom moves or dlc were even a thing until I started watching RUclips in around 2016. I played little Mac most of the time simply because I loved punch out wii a lot. When ultimate was announced and when it came out, I was excited to the point where I said to myself that I really wanted to be good at the game. I practiced a lot of fighting level 9 cpus mainly as link in smash 4, and then when I played ultimate, I just carried that sort of determination over. Flash forward to the last few years where I still keep smash as a side hobby, but I’ve now more so appreciated the competitive aspect of the games, and seeing videos reflecting the old games which I never experienced competitively is wild. That really does make me appreciate how well the devs made the games easy to learn but hard to master, and boy is it a blast when mastered. I now notice that this comment is less about smash 4, but whatever, a comment to promote the video to others.
I disagree, he's had a bit more work put into them than most characters but they're still coopting the same animations, etc. as his base moveset and are very recognizable. I wouldn't really consider the Miis to count either, no, again you can choose multiple movesets for them even if custom moves are disabled.
@@MockRockTalk fair enough. I guess they both are in a separate category. You got most characters who just have simple variants, megaman who has different assets (bombs, birds, bubbles, etc.), miis that have custom moves as part of their core identity and palu who has truly unique custom moves
In my local Ultimate scene, they banned miis because they were "broken" and more specifically they only allowed 1111 which we all know SUCKS, but what offends me more is that when they were bringing up how the character was broken, they mentioned counter throw. COUNTER THROW
I just played Sm4sh for the extra game modes because those were actually fun. I never really started playing competitively until Ultimate so I didn’t care how balanced the game was, I just wanted to play smash run all day.
22:30 the name "Monado Purge" is actually directly taken from a Monado Art in Xenoblade Chronicles, which Shulk doesn't have in Smash probably because it's a green projectile meant to be used against the Telethia enemies and between it having the same color as the jump art and not being a stance but an ether attack, I have no clue how you'd implement that in Smash so fair. Same thing with another technique of his in Smash 4 that extends his Vision's invincibility frames upon landing up to half a second with good timing, which was fittingly called "shadow I-frames" after Shulk's "shadow eye" non-Monado art. Neat stuff, Shulk mains were huge nerds and Xenoblade fans still are today
Buster was also an Attack rather than a Stance, so if Purge were legitimately implemented into the Monado Arts move, it'd probably get a similar treatment. Not really sure what the stance's effect would be, since Purge primarily gets used to remove enemy buffs. I guess theoretically one could use it to remove debuffs from Shulk like Inkling Ink, Poison Mushroom/Lightning Bolt Smallness, Witch Time/Timer Slowdown, Lip's Stick Flower, and a few others, but it'd be pretty different from how the other Monado Arts work since it wouldn't be a statistic swap and pretty niche overall.
In retrospect, having smash 4 as my introductory competitive game is probably why I like kusoge so much now, because while I loved that mess and still think that if bayo and cloud were banned the game could be a very fun side game, wow it was cursed
I still feel bad for Wii u players for not having smash run. That’s all I played as a kid before getting into the competitive scene a few months before ultimate’s release. Smash run actually made it possible to get all the customs (at least in a fun way). Either that or I just played SO much as a kid I didn’t notice how long it took to collect them all lol
The Monado Purge is named after a Monado art from Xenoblade Chronicles. There's not much correlation between the art and the combo beyond the fact that Shulk jumps given that the art is a projectile.
34:50 Jigglypuff definitely had crap custom moves, but nobody acknowledges that King Dedede's custom were just as trash. No wonder these two characters were low tier in Smash 4.
Smash 4 I'd honestly one of my favorite smash games, it threw so much stuff at the wall and not a lot of it stuck, but I can't help but love how much it tried.
I’ve been playing Smash 3Ds since Christmas of 2014, and I only just got the last custom move about a month ago. You have no idea how many hours of Smash Run that was.
Alright, after seeing you react to Coney, now I need to see you react to Coney's most controversial tier list (and probably THE most controversial) Smash Ultimate characters ranked by how many teeth they have
I was a supporter of trying out custom moves early on and don't regret it. Obviously for a lot of reasons I get that they were never going to work but I appreciate we at least tried. Also I do miss the names for kill confirms, we've still got some of that now and the legacy kind of lives on via names for loop combos but nothing can take the place in my heart checkmate had as a Robin main.
The funniest part is that I played a lot of Smash 4, but I’ve never played the Wii U version, only the 3DS version. I played a bit of everyone, but I played Mario the most, and I played it for hundreds of hours doing all the single player modes as I’ve never played it with another person. I also never played online because when I was 10 I didn’t know how to connect my 3DS to the internet so I never touched any 3DS online features for years. And when I did play traditional Smash it was always a 4 player free for all with me and 3 level 9 CPU’s with all stages, all items, and 99 stocks, sometimes with the knock back turn down all the way. And there were other times where I would do the exact same thing, but with all CPU’s because I wanted to see which one was the strongest. And the only thing I really knew about playing was the opening tutorial which says to use smash attacks to get kills, and I thought that was the only way to kill. And since the game’s move lists only tell you the special moves, I thought those were the moves you should use all the time. So I would play the game by spamming specials and the occasional dash attack or tilt until the were at 100, and I spam smash attacks because I was trying to follow the tutorial (and yes that means I never used grabs, shield, or ariels). And while all of this was going on I had no idea competitive Smash existed, I never bought the DLC, and I never watched Smash videos on RUclips. So I missed out on all of this because I was complete idiot when I was 12.
Something I noticed in the Mii Brawler section was that I kept hearing about the choice of 9 specials instead of 12. Did one of the special slots have a unanimously agreed upon best special? Was it Feint Jump?
In Australia we are the same with our alphabet ending with zed and weird measurements. I think Little Z just chose that so it wouldn’t be jarring to the American audience or I may be wrong and he’s just American at heart.
i'm glad you brought it up because i feel like smash 4 was the glory days of people giving very simple combos very embarrassing names. The Mama Mia may have been ultimate, i can't remember, but that one still lives in my heart of hearts.
AT 22:25 I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS SMASH RELATED HOLY SHIT. I was just shocked, like when I (someone who played smash all his childhood) realised the phrase WOMBO COMBO is from Meelee esports
Great video. Honestly tho, as a Bayonetta fan I can say without any doubt that she doesn't actually resemble how she plays in her home series. And she was broken beyond belief while still missing the most interesting and possibly broken mechanic of her games, that being dodge offset.
Thanks for watching everyone, tried something a bit different today so please let me know your thoughts! There's a lot more to these reactions (as well as Heeew's original video) that I cut out of this, so if you were watching and thinking "I wish there was more of X person's video to watch," today's your lucky day. I've got them all linked below, please be sure to check them out as well.
*Main channel:* ruclips.net/user/mockrocktv
*Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock
*Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock
*Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch
*Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock
*TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
*Coney:* ruclips.net/video/IUtJHzq9U_A/видео.html
*Heeew:* ruclips.net/video/MjSf1wFW1VA/видео.html
*Hungrybox:* ruclips.net/video/QG34JehWHuU/видео.html
*Panda:* ruclips.net/video/_1KRrfbCdYo/видео.html
Make a Tekken video of some kind
tbh I’m surprised that more people haven’t done “reacting to reaction” style content
Love that you included Coney. He’s funny as all living hell and doesn’t get as much recognition as he deserves
Monado Purge is a thing FROM Xenoblade Chronicles.
Its effect is pretty simple--there are a few enemies that deal damage to you when you attack them, and some that avoid Shulk's ability to read the future. Monado Purge deactivates these for a while.
Not at all how it's used in SSB, but I have to admit it's a fucking awesome name.
Pls do this agian but with brawl
Ultimate: Everyone. Is. Here.
Smash 4: Everyone. Is. Lucario.
...This is fair.
and Lucario is Lucario^2
@@MockRockTalk
Brawl: Everyone. Is. Tripping.
Except for Meta Knight.
Smash 4: Everyone. Is. Bayonetta.
You should do the “taking smash memes too seriously” again on this channel; seems like a perfect fit
I've thought about doing something meme-related, the thing is that "Smash Memes But I Take Them Way Too Seriously" was actually an absurd amount of work haha, definitely outside the scope I want for MockRockTalk. We'll see though, I may do something in that ballpark.
@@MockRockTalk if you do you should definitely look at the "counterpicking sora is an instaloss" meme
@@MockRockTalk What % of that work was for the Pikachu section?
@@MockRockTalk i so want to see Mockrock on the meme that is PK Fire
The "counterpick" era of Smash 4's meta was absolutely something I would wish to come back and was a large portion of why I got into competitive Smash. The wacky nature of custom moves worked perfectly banned from a competitive setting, I feel. They ABSOLUTELY should've been better implemented to provide an interesting dynamic for many characters, and them being a pain in the ass to unlock (I never got more than like, 20% of them, even with all the time I spent playing Smash 4) made them impossible to be well received, but messing around with them was fun and I will stand by that.
And yes, Coney is absolutely the most entertaining Smash creator, and it's not even close.
Nah, Larry Lurrs better.
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 I still enjoy all of alpha’s content, and honestly, it may be better than his smash content
@M larry doesnt make funny content tho. Its mostly just analysis.
I liked Coney’s unique take as a commentator for Smash 4 and his stories on his time in the scene
love Coney as a content creator. His awful thumbnails/titles turned me off at first, but the actual content and humor is gold
Coney is pretty good for his ability to add to whatever it is he's reacting to. Pretty often 20 seconds of what he's watching will trigger some story or discussion with chat.
If only he wasn't toxic
@@adamtheriault6743 lol how
@@zacharywoloszynski4258 demeaning comments, jokes at other people's expenses, pretending he knows everything and that his opinion is always correct
And if you write it off as joking, I wonder how many times you have to see it to believe it, because the only time he's not like that is when he's commentating
This is just a fun trip down memory lane, from the jank of Smash 4 to the reactions of the others. Especially Coney and Hbox who both made some good points. Also we stan Mii Smawler.
He's legendary for bringing up afk corrin
I honestly think that Mega Man would have been a better character to showcase custom moves than Palutena and should have had all of his unlocked from the start, considering that Mega Man is well-known for being able to use Special Weapons in his home series. It's truly a tragedy that those custom moves weren't carried over to Ultimate, as they really did flesh out Mega Man and represented his home series.
Plus his were different enough while still being similar to his base movesets to better represent customs than palu
But palu has sakuri bias so he never stood a chance
AFK Corrin is still one of the best videos ever to come out of the Smash community
Definitely agree that Coney is the naturally funniest Smash creator. He's so effortlessly witty, it's honestly impressive.
I choked on my soul watching his indie game tier list
Bit of S4 lore for y’all, the 3ds and Wii U versions are able to connect and share some bits of data with each other. One of those things is custom move load outs. Instead of getting all 400 special moves on 100 Wii U’s, for Evo, you get all of the moves on 1 3ds and make all of the move sets on that and transfer it to the Wii U version however many times it takes.
You also mentioned footstools. While a lot of characters have footstool set ups, many being off of throws. Footstools we’re far more common in doubles. A lot of the best doubles teams use footstools to trap you in infinite ToD combos. You get grabbed once, or get jab reset once and your stock is gone. It’s even less interactive than getting Bayo comboed in singles.
I like how this evolved from reacting to people reacting to content to an entire Mii discussion to trying to figure out how to pronounce Little Z
it's strange because australians normally say zed
25:35 Nah man, Melee Roy is the most faithful representation of a character in Smash. Anyone who’s played FE Binding Blade will agree
Lmao ofc
Another Sm4sh video? Another excuse for me to talk about Bayo
At 29:56 Sinji was either SDIing up but lazily, or down really hard. The stupid part is that he had to SDI down or he would die off the top, but SDI down would also just a combo easier to connect since Bayo has so much rage. If he went up and away, he would just rocket out of up b and die off the top cause of rage. Literally nothing to do there lmao
31:12 regarding this patch, it hit all the glaring problems of Bayo. Issue was that Bayos had discovered things to counteract the nerfs long before that patch.
SDI heavily affects her combos? Switch to fair strings and fair 1-up air loops to make up the damage. DABK no longer combos? Use it as the best landing tool in the game instead. ABK has higher knockback growth, so a kill combo at high % is harder to find? Just fish for dtilt up air lol. All of this was already known by Bayos, but saw no use because it was just redundant when a standard Bayo combo worked just as well but easier.
This video was way more entertaining and informative than a “reacting to reacting to” video had any right to be
I assume you haven't seen jacksfilms reacting to jinx
this is what reaction vids SHOULD be.
Funnily enough, Australians generally pronounce z as “zed”. Zack probably pronounces his name that way for his primarily American audience.
I love Coney's reactions, and his reaction to the Brawl version is even better.
But I find his point on the parasocial relationships in this series. The sheer variety of games represented really makes some people defensive on their favorite vs the actual in game style or tiers.
coney spitting truths. i am a true believer that cloud was genuinely worse for the game than bayo. people just remember the worst bayo times way more clearly than cloud's constant oppression and brokeness.
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 Smash 4 Cloud is more broken IMO. He's way easier to use, combo, kill, and limit is just fucking ridiculous. And honestly I don't really feel Pyra/Mythra are as oppressive even in Mid Levels when Min Min, R.O.B., Roy, and Sonic exists.
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 oh? In my circles I was a dumbass for saying it haha. Glad to hear that wasn't the case everywhere. I think joker and snake are worse for mid level play than pythra, personally. But I think there is a lot of room to disagree in ultimate.
It’s really interesting. While I’m not certain Smash 4 Bayonetta would be the best character in the game if you just transplanted her into Ultimate, I AM pretty certain that Smash 4 Cloud WOULD. Even though I think Smash 4 Bayo is significantly better IN Smash 4.
@@theillusionist1494 i can see that, for sure. I think the biggest thing is that the two are much closer than people ever really talked about. Cuz if bayo was that overpowered your statement about cloud in ultimate would not hold up at all. But I definitely see what you mean.
Agreed. While Bayonetta ruined high/top level Sm4sh, Cloud ruined mid/low level play and completely killed the doubles scene (while still being oppressive in both high and top level play).
You know what I miss? Pre-Cloud doubles. Smash 4 doubles was such an amazing era, it was extremely fun and the meta was really different. Still remember the Ryo and Sol team, my favorite doubles team.
"Monado Purge" was a goated 50/50 name because it was green in Xenoblade like Jump is in Smash
Half of the top tiers in Smash 4 really did revolve around “how consistently can you kill someone at ludicrously low percents” and not gonna lie, a small, sadistic/masochistic part of me kinda misses it
Also Shulk’s Monado Purge 50/50 got its name cuz in Xenoblade there’s a Monado Art called Purge, which is also green like Jump
Yes, he was aware
Major respect for having the right opinion on the Miis from smash 4. Just treating them as different characters was objectively the right option.
28:41 Interesting perspective on this idea. Back when I was at the age where I ate playdough and jumped around the school playground like I was Mario, I played Brawl. And you would think because of that mario part that I would gravitate to him, but weirdly, I instead gravitated towards Lucas.
Now I have never heard of anything Mother/Earthbound related beforehand, but I was a big fan of something seemingly unrelated: Peanuts, and specifically Charlie Brown. I really related to him at that age because I felt like I found someone that goes through the similar troubles in life as I do.
And then you have Lucas, who in Subspace, is actually one of the few characters to go through an arch. From someone who was too scared to save a person that saved him (Ness) into someone that’s willing to try and save a friend that simply stuck by his side (Pkmn trainer). That arch meant alot to me because I could see myself going through something similar.
Of course, I could have dropped Lucas at any point between then and now in Ultimate, but I didn’t because that initial connection is still there and no other character perfectly replicated the way he plays in my eyes because of that connection (Also even back then I was kind of a hipster that liked picking things like characters that were mostly unpopular).
9:11
This is my favorite part from the Coney video lmfaooo I remember dying when I got to that part. He’s the perfect amount of knowledgeable and hilarious for our community
The funny part is that in Australia, Z is also pronounced as Zed, Little Z just pronounces it as Zee because the majority of his audience is American.
22:30 Monado Purge is a Monado Art from Xenoblade Chronicles, which the combo happens to somewhat resemble. Blame Monolith Soft for making it sound too full of itself.
Otherwise great video Smash 4 will always have a special place in my heart
Outside of Palutena, Mega Man also got custom moves that were more than just a slight power/speed variation, actually changing a lot of his projectiles
I can’t believe how jank smash 4 was, in the moment, it was alright and it made complete sense, but looking back it was absolutely bonkers.
I think you're probably not alone here, Coney's fever dream comparison definitely struck a chord with me
just like ult
"Smash4 is broken" videos honestly should go over every individual era of patches.
From the early days of the infamous hoo-ha and shield insane back-air.
To Shiek's 50/50 kill confirm.
To New Mewtwo being freaking awesome
I want to say, as a Smash 4 Zelda main who loved every second of it, the reason I and a few Zelda mains I knew didn't name her Throw Confirm like other mains did is because we already had a broken kill move with a funny name that the entire player-based hated us for because "Ew why can a bottom-tier do that" and we didn't want to make it any worse lmao
But it is true tho, Elevator (Zelda's Up-B out of shield) was the kind of absolute goat cheese that I'm sure made people quit the game. Total highway robbery and I loved it.
29:45 it wasn't that he died because of his SDI, it was because he got hit by Witch Strike. Bayonetta's Witch Twist has a single hitbox at around her knees which comes out on frame 6, in Sm4sh it's frame 4, that sends you up to the rest of the move's hitboxes. After this hitbox comes out, there's a couple of frames where there are no hitboxes at all. If you happen to get the single hit of up-b only, your opponent will get sent straight up and it can kill you since that single hit has more knockback than the last hit of Witch Twist; you also cant DI nor SDI so it makes it even better. This tech is called Witch Strike, it's taken from the same move in Bayonetta 2 where it's essentially just a single hit Witch Twist. She can still do this in Ultimate. If you're good enough to get it consistently, you can kill characters at 30% after the hit but it is extremely difficult to get so no need to worry.
34:36 well... that's mostly accurate, though there was one major exception: Mega Man. Almost all of his custom moves were fairly unique projectile options that deviated in drastic ways from their original counterparts (as a quick example, Fspecial either gave you Crash Bombs, the Ice Slasher (slow projectile the froze opponents), and the Danger Wrap (Explosive projectile the traveled in an upwards arc))
GREAT MOVIE
GREAT MOVIES
I feel like smash 4 cloud and bayo are similar to 64 kirby and pikachu. Kirby and cloud were both amazing characters that were also insanely easy to use, but they had their flaws. Pikachu and bayo were both harder but had almost no flaws. Kirby and cloud both have bad and exploitable recoveries. Pikachu and bayo had the best recoveries in their games.
At first I only skimmed the title and thought this was gonna be a standard reaction to the original video, but then the thumbnail made me confused until I realized. This is great.
All right pros, you know what you have to do. React to this video. We can go deeper.
34:30 palutena being primarily designed around customs also led to her have one of the blandest set of specials in the entire series with her default set (seriously? a counter AND a reflector that did no damage as separate moves?)
This just shows how much more coney and mockrock add with their reactions than any of the other reactors here.
I haven't watched Heeew in forever, really glad I could kinda watch them via someone kinda watching them
I think a lot of the discourse around miis was due to their size (small brawler and gunner were honestly a hate crime before they got patched), and then their moveset got wrapped into the discourse too. I remember when this all happened it was less "the miis get to pick their moveset grrrr" and more "I don't wanna die to dthrow fair helikick at 20 bc this fast little fuck grabbed me from accros the stage at the speed of light." What enabled brawler cheese was the small version having the best initial dash and like 4th best air speed and full jump in the game. But more people thought that helikick (and also tbh grenade and faint jump were stupid too) was the problem, so both issues were fixed by the medium sized, 1111 ruleset.
This is one of the most creative takes I’ve ever seen on a reaction ideas.
More please!
I love how he's so proud of being Canadian. Such a pleasant way to watch content from your favorite game with one of your fellow patriot!
29:10 oh I totally believe there's a character culture around Smash. The "____ for Smash" campaigns got absolutely wild. When you looked at the most frequently requested characters by fans, I personally thought so many of them would have made for lousy picks. But I generally kept my mouth shut during those as I didn't want to dunk on someone's favorite character and also I prefer to avoid dumb online fights. XD
Since you're apparently unaware of this, shulk's up throw to up air is called Monado Purge because it's an actual move he does with the monado. In fact, it uses the exact same green color of the smash jump art, and it involved Shulk jumping to "purge" the enemies' buff, except the smash version purged stocks lmao
Oh no I'm aware.
This changes nothing.
@@MockRockTalk All good! I was just commenting just in case! Thanks for the reply!
Everyone talks about ultimate Bowser, but nobody mentions that he was significantly buffed in sm4sh.
Bowser even had amazing custom moves (namely dash slash and the fireball).
Combine that with the *busted* badge system, and you could craft a Bowser that can easily kill at 30%.
Casual Bowser was an absolute NIGHTMARE and I loved it, which is why I've been maining him since, even into ultimate.
The Canada flag + national anthem edit was gold.
MockRockTalk is a great channel! Been following you for years :)
I remember picking mii brawler to farm unlockables and actually started playing against my friends using my creation. I had the highest win rate by a wide margin, but no one believed me when I kept saying brawler is a hidden top tier.
Super Smash Con 2019 really demonstrated how most of its top players turned on it after Ultimate. Many of its best players who entered ended up DQing, such as Void, Nairo, and even MkLeo (the latter straight up tweeted "Smash4 is so bad lol" and didn't even bother playing a set in bracket). While the first three Smash titles still have their individual charm and quirks, Smash 4 just kinda felt obsolete after Ultimate, since it was basically a messy trial run for it.
I always felt Ganondorf was arguably better in Sm4sh but because of many jank reasons
Like yeah Ganoncide killed you first and all but a lot of people always glossed over magnet hands, which if I recall correctly Ganondorf had some *nasty* magnet hands.
I main Ganondorf in Ultimate. He still has his magnet hands.
I miss Smash 4 Ganon to...especially his up-air and u-smash
I dunno, I just think Smash 4 Ganon was more fun than Ultimate Ganon
Back when everybody had a pocket DK, Bowser, or Cloud.
23:17 i dont think anyone has, or ever will complain about ultimate being way too offense based... mostly because it isnt and steve, min min, olimar, snake, samus, sonic, and many other campy characters are high tiers in this game, some climbing to top tier as the meta progresses *looking at steve*
I think Smash 4's reputation is partially a victim of losing recency bias but lacking nostalgia bias. Brawl was talked about extremely poorly for a very long time after Smash 4's release, and I suspect the same will happen to Ultimate when Smash 6 comes out.
I somewhat agree with you on the recency and nostalgia bias. Thing is Brawl also had more going for it outside of normal smash gameplay, while I don't think anyone praised Smash Tour. Smash 4 also came out on a failed console meaning there are less people nostalgic for it. I think the complaints about gameplay is overblown and a lot of it will be forgotten as time goes on but it won't be looked back at as fondly. I do agree the same will happen to Ultimate once the next smash is announced and people are tired of... whatever people complain about in Ultimate.
@@nocturn333 True about Brawl having more going on. I think casual and semi-competitive players will have decent nostalgia for the 3DS version at least, which did have cooler side modes like Smash Run and StreetSmash.
Smash 4 was definitely broken, but I have a soft spot for it as well, given that it was also my first time getting into the more competitive side of Smash. I had a lot of fun and have many fond memories, but Ultimate's engine is so wildly different that I literally can't go back to 4 because I literally don't remember how to play my main in Smash 4 - Greninja - anymore, despite doing that for 5000 hours over the course of many years, because I play Greninja so much differently in Ultimate. I'm sure I could get that muscle memory back if I wanted to, but... well, I don't lol. Still, I'm really thankful that Smash 4 walked so that Ultimate could run, and while it was full of cheese, it was an endearing kind of cheese that you can laugh about in hindsight.
Jigglypuff’s wakie wakie may have been awful, but it’s nothing compared to the crime that is spinphony
The Mii bit with CONEY lowkey triggered me lol
I think Miis should have been handled like they were in Ultimate for Smash 4 tournaments. Maybe even have them be regular sized if they were so worried about small Mii Brawler running rampant. But iirc there were a couple counterpicks for it.
I also think that even if it had a lot of cheese, Smash 4 I wouldn't say was the worse of the previous titles. Hitstun that lasts a year in 64, anyone?
Compound the high hitstun on top of the fact that DI wasn't a thing in Smash 64 and you have a game where all of the good characters have playstyles which somewhat emulates Bayonetta.
Smash 4 will always be special to me for the convention tournaments I played in, not specifically Smash focused but knowing I had the crowd cheering for me one year because I picked Falcon in 2015 or placing Top 16 as Link in 2018, Smash 4 holds a special place in my heart for those reasons.
Also I physically tensed up hearing "Hoo hah".
I love coney so much, definitely one of the more underrated "smash" RUclipsrs (even if he doesn't focus on smash)
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 idk that much about twitch because I don't like streams so much but as of YT channels he isn't that big at all
I remember someone calling Lucas' Down-Throw Up-air combo the "Dead mom"
Manado purge was a name of one of the monado arts in Xenoblade, so that's probably where that came from.
Bald Mockrock in the thumbnail is going to haunt me
I have to give you major props for the thumbnail. And this was a fun way to contribute your opinion on top of the other guys'
Monado Purge is one of Shulk’s Monado Arts in his game. It makes sense that one of his combos would be named that.
This was actually fascinating to watch! Loved the commentary and I laughed out loud at the "Little Zed" fumble xD
In the words of a wise man...
_"Smash 4 Is A Silly Game"_
I have an interesting personal experience with this game, because I was young enough at the time where I really just enjoyed it with family members, I wasn’t on the internet and stuff so I never even knew custom moves or dlc were even a thing until I started watching RUclips in around 2016. I played little Mac most of the time simply because I loved punch out wii a lot.
When ultimate was announced and when it came out, I was excited to the point where I said to myself that I really wanted to be good at the game. I practiced a lot of fighting level 9 cpus mainly as link in smash 4, and then when I played ultimate, I just carried that sort of determination over. Flash forward to the last few years where I still keep smash as a side hobby, but I’ve now more so appreciated the competitive aspect of the games, and seeing videos reflecting the old games which I never experienced competitively is wild. That really does make me appreciate how well the devs made the games easy to learn but hard to master, and boy is it a blast when mastered.
I now notice that this comment is less about smash 4, but whatever, a comment to promote the video to others.
I would absolutely love to see more like this, this was great
34:35 megaman also had unique custom moves. You even showed it later. Also miis but that's much more part of their design so i don't know if it counts
I disagree, he's had a bit more work put into them than most characters but they're still coopting the same animations, etc. as his base moveset and are very recognizable. I wouldn't really consider the Miis to count either, no, again you can choose multiple movesets for them even if custom moves are disabled.
@@MockRockTalk fair enough. I guess they both are in a separate category. You got most characters who just have simple variants, megaman who has different assets (bombs, birds, bubbles, etc.), miis that have custom moves as part of their core identity and palu who has truly unique custom moves
In my local Ultimate scene, they banned miis because they were "broken" and more specifically they only allowed 1111 which we all know SUCKS, but what offends me more is that when they were bringing up how the character was broken, they mentioned counter throw. COUNTER THROW
Tbh this is more interesting than any of the regular reactions to the video in a vacuum. You get the opinion and the second opinion at the same time.
I just played Sm4sh for the extra game modes because those were actually fun. I never really started playing competitively until Ultimate so I didn’t care how balanced the game was, I just wanted to play smash run all day.
22:30 the name "Monado Purge" is actually directly taken from a Monado Art in Xenoblade Chronicles, which Shulk doesn't have in Smash probably because it's a green projectile meant to be used against the Telethia enemies and between it having the same color as the jump art and not being a stance but an ether attack, I have no clue how you'd implement that in Smash so fair. Same thing with another technique of his in Smash 4 that extends his Vision's invincibility frames upon landing up to half a second with good timing, which was fittingly called "shadow I-frames" after Shulk's "shadow eye" non-Monado art. Neat stuff, Shulk mains were huge nerds and Xenoblade fans still are today
Buster was also an Attack rather than a Stance, so if Purge were legitimately implemented into the Monado Arts move, it'd probably get a similar treatment. Not really sure what the stance's effect would be, since Purge primarily gets used to remove enemy buffs. I guess theoretically one could use it to remove debuffs from Shulk like Inkling Ink, Poison Mushroom/Lightning Bolt Smallness, Witch Time/Timer Slowdown, Lip's Stick Flower, and a few others, but it'd be pretty different from how the other Monado Arts work since it wouldn't be a statistic swap and pretty niche overall.
Watching you catch yourself saying “Zed” has to be one of the best things ever.
you and coney are an excellent combination
In retrospect, having smash 4 as my introductory competitive game is probably why I like kusoge so much now, because while I loved that mess and still think that if bayo and cloud were banned the game could be a very fun side game, wow it was cursed
I still feel bad for Wii u players for not having smash run. That’s all I played as a kid before getting into the competitive scene a few months before ultimate’s release. Smash run actually made it possible to get all the customs (at least in a fun way). Either that or I just played SO much as a kid I didn’t notice how long it took to collect them all lol
The Monado Purge is named after a Monado art from Xenoblade Chronicles. There's not much correlation between the art and the combo beyond the fact that Shulk jumps given that the art is a projectile.
34:50 Jigglypuff definitely had crap custom moves, but nobody acknowledges that King Dedede's custom were just as trash. No wonder these two characters were low tier in Smash 4.
@@grunkleg.2934 Oof! Zelda's got crap customs too. She's had it rough pre-Ultimate.
Smash 4 I'd honestly one of my favorite smash games, it threw so much stuff at the wall and not a lot of it stuck, but I can't help but love how much it tried.
22:30 Monado Purge is an art Shulk can use in Xenoblade. It's a reference that also sounds cool as a kill confirm.
React content is like an onion, it has layers
I’ve been playing Smash 3Ds since Christmas of 2014, and I only just got the last custom move about a month ago. You have no idea how many hours of Smash Run that was.
I really like the 'consistency' aspect of MockRockTalk, I now have more of my favorite Smash RUclipsr to watch.
iStudying's footstool combos were always hype and skillful. Greninja now feels very watered down.
I think another thing that adds to the “Character Culture” he mentions @29 is that every culture is from a different game
21:38 Oh god I'm crying, that was such a good edit 😂
Alright, after seeing you react to Coney, now I need to see you react to Coney's most controversial tier list (and probably THE most controversial)
Smash Ultimate characters ranked by how many teeth they have
It was quite an experimental game - feeling like the beta Ultimate where it took some risks so that the proceeding game could fix them
I had to reread the title before I got the premise.
This is stupid I love it.
I was a supporter of trying out custom moves early on and don't regret it. Obviously for a lot of reasons I get that they were never going to work but I appreciate we at least tried. Also I do miss the names for kill confirms, we've still got some of that now and the legacy kind of lives on via names for loop combos but nothing can take the place in my heart checkmate had as a Robin main.
The funniest part is that I played a lot of Smash 4, but I’ve never played the Wii U version, only the 3DS version. I played a bit of everyone, but I played Mario the most, and I played it for hundreds of hours doing all the single player modes as I’ve never played it with another person. I also never played online because when I was 10 I didn’t know how to connect my 3DS to the internet so I never touched any 3DS online features for years. And when I did play traditional Smash it was always a 4 player free for all with me and 3 level 9 CPU’s with all stages, all items, and 99 stocks, sometimes with the knock back turn down all the way. And there were other times where I would do the exact same thing, but with all CPU’s because I wanted to see which one was the strongest. And the only thing I really knew about playing was the opening tutorial which says to use smash attacks to get kills, and I thought that was the only way to kill. And since the game’s move lists only tell you the special moves, I thought those were the moves you should use all the time. So I would play the game by spamming specials and the occasional dash attack or tilt until the were at 100, and I spam smash attacks because I was trying to follow the tutorial (and yes that means I never used grabs, shield, or ariels). And while all of this was going on I had no idea competitive Smash existed, I never bought the DLC, and I never watched Smash videos on RUclips. So I missed out on all of this because I was complete idiot when I was 12.
Smash 4 is indeed a game
Something I noticed in the Mii Brawler section was that I kept hearing about the choice of 9 specials instead of 12. Did one of the special slots have a unanimously agreed upon best special? Was it Feint Jump?
It was 100% feint jump, foot flurry was awful and head-on assault was ok but the movement feint jump gave you was too good to pass up
In Australia we are the same with our alphabet ending with zed and weird measurements. I think Little Z just chose that so it wouldn’t be jarring to the American audience or I may be wrong and he’s just American at heart.
See, I know Australia is Commonwealth so I was assuming he'd use "zed" but checking obviously turned out to be the right call lol
8:36. Double Cloud was statistically better than Brawl Meta Knight.
i'm glad you brought it up because i feel like smash 4 was the glory days of people giving very simple combos very embarrassing names. The Mama Mia may have been ultimate, i can't remember, but that one still lives in my heart of hearts.
AT 22:25 I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS SMASH RELATED HOLY SHIT.
I was just shocked, like when I (someone who played smash all his childhood) realised the phrase WOMBO COMBO is from Meelee esports
Now someone needs to react to him reacting to someone else reacting to heeews video
Great video.
Honestly tho, as a Bayonetta fan I can say without any doubt that she doesn't actually resemble how she plays in her home series. And she was broken beyond belief while still missing the most interesting and possibly broken mechanic of her games, that being dodge offset.
Man, I forgot how funny Little Mac haymaking to his death was.
(21:30) But in Japanese it's zetto, from zed
It's more messy than you think
so naturally someone will end up reacting to you reacting to others reacting to “Smash 4 Is Broken”