Michael Shermer with Catherine Wilson - How to Be an Epicurean: The Ancient Art of Living Well (#96)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Listen to the Science Salon Podcast # 96 (audio-only):
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In this wide-ranging conversation the philosopher Catherine Wilson makes the case that if the pursuit of happiness is the question, Epicureanism is the answer. Not the mythic Epicureanism that calls to mind gluttons with gout or an admonition to eat, drink, and be merry. Instead, in her new book How to Be an Epicurean, Wilson shows that Epicureanism isn’t an excuse for having a good time: it’s a means to live a good life. Although modern conveniences and scientific progress have significantly improved our quality of life, many of the problems faced by ancient Greeks - love, money, family, politics - remain with us in new forms. To overcome these obstacles, the Epicureans adopted a philosophy that promoted reason, respect for the natural world, and reverence for our fellow humans. By applying this ancient wisdom to a range of modern problems, from self-care routines and romantic entanglements to issues of public policy and social justice, Wilson shows us how we can all fill our lives with purpose and pleasure. Wilson and Shermer also discuss:
• the hedonic treadmill and the problem of pursuing material goods
• why money will not bring you happiness or meaning
• eternal moral truths
• judging figures from the past by modern moral standards
• why she thinks everyone from Thomas Jefferson to Joe Biden should have known better and acted differently
• why she thinks Jeffrey Epstein committing suicide was a rational choice for him
• how to think about the abortion issue
• why we need not fear death, and
• how to lead a meaningful life.
Catherine Wilson received her PhD in philosophy from Princeton University and has taught at universities in the US, Canada, and Europe. She has published more than 100 research papers and eight books, including A Very Short Introduction to Epicureanism and Metaethics from a First-Person Standpoint: An Introduction to Moral Philosophy. She has two children and lives in New York City, where she is currently Visiting Presidential Professor of Philosophy at the Graduate Center at CUNY.
This dialogue was recorded on August 20, 2019 as part of the Science Salon Podcast series hosted by Michael Shermer and presented by The Skeptics Society, in California.
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I like that Wilson has the courage to say what she did about Epstein.
The forced transfer of wealth is as morally incorrect as is slavery and forced labor. The problem to be solved is not one of "distribution of wealth", but rather "distribution of productivity" and the sharing of knowledge that leads to "wealth generation".
It's not the same as slavery. Slaves didn't sign a contract allowing it. You can also start your own business in a capitalist system. There is also not necessarily a system that would work better. Worker owned co-ops could be good. But I'm not convinced that they can compete on a larger scale and a country with a ton of them could get dominated by one without them. I like the idea of expanding them though and giving people the option for them. If you had said "the minimum wage should be higher" or "we need more worker owned co-ops", I might have been with you. But I just wanted to argue against what you're saying when you said "working a job is just as bad as slavery". That's not fair to the people who actually were slaves to claim such a thing. Ridiculous, actually. If someone is way smarter, comes up with an idea for how to make money, executes it, other people willingly sign up to be part of it and those people earn less because they didn't have the same ideas, responsibility or risk, then I think it's easy to find justification for that. I say this as a Bernie Sanders supporter and a social Democrat. I'm not a socialist and have my differences with Bernie, obviously. Capitalism is not evil.
@@1DangerMouse1 I never stated, and certainly did not mean to imply, that "working a job is just as bad as slavery". Also, I would never claim that the minimum wage should be higher. All attempts to control the minimum wage are futile and counter productive. The actual minimum wage is always $0. I have no issue with "worker own co-ops" or worker owned businesses. But worker managed co-ops and businesses generally are less likely to be able to compete with traditional private businesses and with traditional corporations.
Beyond a certain debatable threshold, the accumulation of wealth is functionally a cancer in our social and economic system.
Once you hear the testimonies of JE's victims the dimension of the suffering he caused by his acts becomes clearer. And what to say of the utter waste of valuable time and resources that could have been used in fostering justice and good (alleviating suffering) in the world. JE was a dehumanized monster by all accounts.
I notice that Dr. Wilson has also written one of the Very Short Introduction series books on Epicureanism. I find the short books to often be excellent.
Thanks and enjoy the holidays, Michael!
"Feeling meaningful is enough" Yes! I completely agree!
Thanks I just picked up this book.
So Spock and Vulcans are Stoics and Kirt and humans are Epicurean?
Or Carl Jung's separation of intellect and feelings as two ways of knowing, "We should not pretend to understand the world only by the intellect; we apprehend it just as much by feeling. Therefore, the judgment of the intellect is, at best, only the half of truth, and must, if it be honest, also come to an understanding of its inadequacy."
Added her book to my list. Thanks.
Merry Christmas Mr Shermer, from one rejector of mind forged manacles to another!😂👍☘
Three cheers for old Hitch
Peter > Chris
Probably, dislikes from Stoics)
I'm curious how our new modern affliction of uber narcissism fits in? Certainly a problem of addiction to self, to pleasure, and some inability to exist with one's self alone, without having self-reflected back through others raising us up.
I'm curious how our new modern affliction of uber narcissism fits in? Certainly a problem of addiction to self, to pleasure, and some inability to exist with one's self alone, without having self-reflected back through others raising us up.
I prefer Pyrrhonism and Daoism myself.
Satanism, as codified by Anton LaVey, is an atheistic worldview and Epicurean philosophy. I think it’s worth pointing out that Anton LaVey was pretty on point and ahead of the curve when he recognized the attraction of religious symbolism and rituals and those kind of trappings and created something that could exist in tandem with an atheistic worldview, something which some modern atheists and humanists are seemingly searching for.
I can’t read everything I want fast enough. Between trying to read all of Bart Herman’s works and the people Michael Shermer has on the show, I’m kept busy.
So hedonism.
Thanks for introducing Catherine to us. Will be buying her book, and looking for more of her on line.
Love Epicurus!
I don’t know what you mean, what
Was this supposed to be a talk about Epicurus? I must have missed that part, because this was just one person presenting her own political and ethical preferences in 2019, while at the same time postulating the existence of universal moral values, seemingly not aware of the fact that all she was doing was stating the values popular in her own society and class right at that moment. What if in 2119, most educated Americans living in NYC will find her views absolutely despicable? She, and others thinking like her, should read some Nietzsche (who by the way also greatly appreciated Epicurus).
I didn't think I could like this guy anymore than I did, but when he gave his thoughts on abortion, I thought wow!!! Spot on!!!! I thought I was the only Atheist that didn't accept all out abortion, but he hit the nail on the head...
You should interview Dr. Michael Greger of How Not to Diet (& How Not to Die). He will set your right on eating fat & meat.
I dont know about anyone else but i thought this lady is pretty hot.. I was amazed to hear her age.
Michael, Please always preface your mentions of Dinesh D'Souza with "convicted felon"
Good interview Michael. She's a tad scornful and judgmental for my tastes - I agree with you more. And Dawkins is right about the changing moral zeigeist. Smart lady for sure, very eloquent, but Ms. Wilson doesn't "get it". D.A., J.D., NYC
Indeed, reparations are due to the descendants of natives as well as descendants of slaves.
According to Wilson, Epicurus thinks we shouldn't hurt other people. But wasn't Epicurus a complete amoralist? If so, hurting others would be a good thing if it gave us pleasure and if we had a good chance of getting away with it. I have the feeling that Wilson is smuggling her own personal views into her analysis, and if so, it's bad scholarship.
Imo if you draw pleasure from hurting others without consent Epicurus would say that your hedonic calculus is way off...since A) you can NEVER be sure that you are able to hide your evil intentions and deeds and B) if your pleasure depends on hurting others you will not be able to gratify your desire very often.
Her microphone is producing a very irritating chirp.