Back in OW1 I was an off tank specialist. Specifically my main was Zarya. It was just really fun having the role of fending off flankers and or enabling the main tank to take space and sometimes DPS. Zarya is still my favorite tank to play but I had to adjust my play style into a less fun role for me.
Zarya main here too. She had a lot more skill expression in ow1. I feel like now she mostly just gets used to counterswap dva :( I still occasionally play her but tank in general just rly sucks to play rn
Yup. Was rolling a team as Dva and what happened next round? Hog, symm and Moira oh and Mei. It makes the game miserable. All of my good plays meant nothing because the whole team swapped.
@pithagorian4394 there was counterpicking in ow1 but it wasnt nearly as effective and you were penalized more for it. Back in the day a counterpick still had counterplay, and no ult charge was transferred between swaps which usually meant that the person swapping to counterpick still had to be the better player.
@@pithagorian4394there was counterpicking but because 1 tank back then was just another player focusing, counterswapping and solo ulting the tank brought much less value where as now even though its not the optimal strat it still brings disproportional value from the amount of effort you put in
I decided I wanted to learn to play ball and it was really fun. After a certain point, It’s now just turned into the entire team immediately picking counters after first death. Unless you’re a GM level Ball, I feel in 5v5, you can only get so far with tanks like that.
@claridge7549 ball is just super dependent on his team to follow up. You can be rank 1 ball but if your team doesnt follow up its hard to secure kills. Part of it is ball's damage, probably the lowest tank damage hero, combined with higher hp pools. Or if you have a crappy comp that doesn't enable ball, its gonna be tough. That said, I have 1000's of hours on ball and I make magic happen😅 but I really feel for aplayers new trying to learn ball bc you have to be 2 or 3steps ahead of every other hero, work 10x harder, just to get a fraction of the value
Hello I’m a doomfist main but the tanks recently got there tank passive nerfed (40% > 25% knockback reduction) this has greatly helped doomfist once again be able to fight tanks but just knocking them far back. Are you telling me Ball did not receive this?
Samito has an interesting analogy saying that 2-2-2 felt like a dance between tank duos. I think this is a great analogy, because being in sync with a partner is super fluid and fun and much better than being alone. At the same time, it's super annoying when your partner refuses to get in sync with you, goes off and does their own thing, or forces you to do what they want. Rein/Zar on Kings Row will always be wonderful, but what about having an Ori 1 trick on Watchpoint or having 2 offtank players running Zar/DVA against a full rush comp. If we go back full 2-2-2 we either make every tank duo viable (balance nightmare) or we just have to accept that every once in a while you just auto lose because the 2 tank players can't get along and there's really nothing you can do about it.
i agree with this (except for the need to make all tank duos viable, because that's impossible), and i think this carries over to 5v5 as well! the two tanks are just merged into one now, so if your tank is not working with the team or getting hard-countered and won't swap, then it creates a similar situation. i seriously miss tank synergies and it's just not as fun with just 1 tank, even if you synergise with the rest of your team, because instead of 2 big fellas working together it's just you and your squishies. ow1 has a place in my heart
I agree with a lot of this, but in 5v5 you auto lose if your one tank just doesn't know what they're doing. Tank is even harder to play with just one and a lot of people refuse to actually learn the characters and just play because "tank strong" leading to a higher likely hood of your only tank losing you the game before they even queu
@@warlordapollyon2754 skill based matchmaking exists in quickplay and comp. if your tank does not know what they are doing then no one else in the lobby should. tank is easier to play, by a long shot as you have less teammates and enemies to track (less cooldowns ults etc) and instead of having to worry about synergizing with my other tank, or getting attention from my supports, it is blatantly obvious to my supports that I need some amount of resources from them specifically.
As a DVa/Zarya and occasional Orisa (when people complained for a shield/main tank) 2-3 trick on tank I really freaking miss playing tank. It's just so miserable to play in OW2 because I'm not a tank player. I'm an off-tank player. 😢
The gag is…NOW people play OW2 this way like it’s OW1 because it took ALL THIS TIME for people to learn the game since OW doesn’t teach you how to ACTUALLY play. It’s annoying AF
31:00 I really dont like the implied arguement here that it may be better to have inferior gameplay across the board so its more consistent for worse players. Of course thats not the best arguement either but I played in the metal ranks and enjoyed the gameplay back then much more. Even with all the lows sometimes. The Highs are what kept me playing even through the content drought.
Honestly might not be too bad but people do not want their characters to change When they even mentioned thinking about changing Reinhardt everyone went crazy and was up in arms about it so I don't think we can change any of the og characters without people getting mad
Tank main here. Haven’t been back to ow2 since marvel rivals beta. 2000+ ow hrs but absolutely zero desire to return. I acknowledge that MR is in honeymoon phase but it was just so glaringly obvious that the game played better with 2 tanks
True but I don't know if they'd balance it well, plus it depends on what things they choose to keep in the game and remove, like retaining ult charge and some of the new tank tools
@@Glizzyman most of that will be from the workshop code only leaving in as many changes since October 2022 (abilities/weapons) as it has too, meanwhile the devs will be converting the current version of the game. But who knows, they might be using that code as a jumping off point for their own rebalance.
@@Glizzymanthe 6v6 code is horrible lmao it has the worst balancing iv ever seen and im not blaming the creators since theres only so much they can do, but blizzard will most likely do a better job. My hope is for hog and doom to get reverted 🙏🙏🙏🤞🤞🤞
Great video! Really appreciate your educational content. You do a really good job of explaining things, and I can tell you're interested and invested in what you're talking about, and it makes it great to watch/listen.
Spilo I just fundamentally disagree with your take at the end. People fell in love with OW because of the unique heroes. The game is being made bland in their attempt to remove the rough edges. What can Bastion be with a hitbox his size? He has to be a turret. Torb and Reaper are basically just the shotty guy with a turret or with a teleport. Hog can’t but also can one shot. It’s silly. A lot of us miss the way the game was because of the opportunity and I’d even deal with the whack team comps in quick play with my low rank friends because it was FUN even if suboptimal. Then at high ranks the peaks were leagues higher. Also what you are describing with the low lows is not even a factor in 6v6 role lock any more than it is in 5v5. Finally, who is to say we can’t have a single queue with roles that fill up so that it creates freedom and stability? They really need to reconsider not only 5v5 but how they’ve changed heroes because so many are just bland now. There is a way to have unique heroes but some stability (6v6 open queue with role limit) but they just never tried it.
Honestly they just need to rework bastion into the tank category similar to doomfist plus unlike doomfist JQ and zarya the bastion has a tank like size
"What you are describing isn't even a factor" don't bother arguing on the internet if this is the level of intellectual intelligence and honesty you bring to the table
Haven't played OW since the disastrous launch of OW2 after taking a long break from OW1. I was a Dva one trick and I got flashbacks to absolutely hating every single ball I had to play with because all they wanted to do was run the flank and spin on point, even up in 3700+. I have basically no context for the current state of OW but listening to you talk about the strategy for controlling lanes and team-wide decision making made me miss the old group I used to run with. Some of my favorite gaming memories are from OW1 and the horrific mishandling of the IP will always be one of the biggest letdowns for me.
yeah there where a lot more bad compositions in low ello in ow 1, but the enemies also didn't know how to punish those weaknesses. I played mostly in bronze through gold back in ow 1, and the amount of times my team wanted to go "double shield" than picked Orisa + Reinhardt and WON is so funny now that I'm looking back on it. a lot of these "less counters" in ow 2 come from the more rounded hero design and not the format. 6v6 plus not having to deal with old bastion / mei / cass stun would feel a lot better imo
After watching the vid I first didnt think this was rly important. Few days later and I realized how important all this synergy is. Especially considering I main off-tanks and off-dps Thanks!
You're so right about the square peg with Dva She's not a main tank but listen, she's what we got - and she's so overtuned sometimes she just gets it done But as the Rein, Winston, Sigma player who would main tank for my Dva for years - sometimes I can tell that they are just used to playing with a really high-quality shield and don't always prepare to play around certain abilities and ultimates (that I typically used to take care of when we would Tank Duo) When the enemies pull out certain degenerate comps I can tell my Dva player is gonna have a bad game - and sometimes if I see them get Earth shattered or Mei slowed too many times in one night I gotta do tank queue for a lil and hold 'er down with some Reinhardt - but frankly I miss duo Tank queues and Off-tank hero design in general
Thinking on making DM more useful without eating, it could be upgraded like one of Dva's talents from HotS. Ablative armor has the mech regen 50% of the magic damage it takes over 3 seconds. Maybe in 5v5 Defense Matrix would have Dva's mech regen 50% of the damage it took while active. While this applies to all damage taken during DM, Dva can still be burst down by the same amount as now, DM has to end, its susceptible to healing reduction. It would lead to Dva using DM more often as a means of sustain rather than sitting on it and always having it ready for important cooldowns or pocketing allies, the regen aspect making it more dynamic than simple damage reduction since we aren't removing its current function.
In OW1, I played a game on Kings Row with a Rein/Hog duo. Last corner leading to second point, the Hog snuck into the subway and yoinked enemy Rein like a comedian bombing on stage and our Rein shattering everyone else. Weird tank pairings can be fun. And sorry about all the ands.
I've never been good at Overwatch, but I've noticed the shift in how I play heros after the switch to 5v5. In OW1, I hated playing tank because they felt so ineffectual. For context, I play DPS-maining Ashe. Tank to me felt like standing around and waiting to get shot at, which is not fun for me. I felt much more at home playing hitscan and taking picks. In OW2, tanks feel much better to play for me, and I think that's a problem. Tanks are a lot more super-charged now and able to secure more kills, but as a result, DPS is less effective to compensate. It's so hard to be effective as DPS since tanks are nigh impossible to kill if they're getting proper support and so many support heros now can match the damage of DPS. As a DPS player in OW2, I don't even know what to do with myself. It's like all the damage heros have lost their identities. And that's to say nothing of what they've done to Cassidy and Reaper.
I always felt that DVa should be able to shoot while using her matrix, albeit with a much slower rate of fire or making her spend her matrix faster. She's either defending, or attacking. Winston can do both, so it feels much more fluid and « violent » (to reuse your term) despite the low damage, he can hit while juggling with his shield so you can do stuff on your own. Despite being a DVa main since 2016, I never felt like I could do things on my own in OW2
The biggest loss in Overwatch 2 was tank synergy. Losing the duo tank engagement model, threw all Overwatch players off whack, and they are all now finally realizing that you cant play OW2 like the old game. Supports and Damage heroes are a lot more active and need to play more aggressive where they can. Damage and support needed to know how to peel in the old game, but that was more high level strat. Now, if your damage or support can't peel, you will struggle. You can't just run down mid and rely on your tank to keep everyone from taking damage. Tanks need to play selfishly for the most part, they need to take space abd good trades. Two unkillable orisas staring at eachother in a choke is not the strat.
Don't give in! Open queue exists! The dream lives on! Junker Queen/Zarya, Ram/Zarya, Doom/Zarya, Mauga/Zarya, you have not even seen the promised land! SO MUCH ENERGY! XD
"Main" tanks have kits that are essentially melee(close quarters) focused and thus have "space creating" potential. Shields facilitate this by being a direct mitigator of oncoming damage which itself inhibits space creation. Like Spilo says in the video the larger health pools is really at a minimum secondary to the kit itself in what determines being a tank in general but especially for a main tank.
Ow1 was made for 6v6. Ow2 was a failed shift to 5v5. But Now we are at the point where 6v6 wouldnt feel the same as ow1 because the game has changed so much.
I always looked at off tanks differently. As they can apply damage, peel for other characters wether it was the hook, bubble or Matrix. This was how it was played in the metal ranks. The main tank offered pressure and protection as in a shield. Thats why if we went to 6v6 Maugua, Queen, would be used for off tanks. This philosophy is based how these tanks are being played now in Open Que and in metal ranks. The reason is because there are a lot of passive tank players that just dont play aggressively because they dont want to die. Thats why as an OW1 Rein player when if I play Tank and play Rein the whole lobby switches to counter me because they dont see such aggressive tank play.
I would argue that Junkerqueen is an off tank. She just can’t absorb as much damage nor mitigate damage like the others. Her lack of armor keeps her from being able to deal with chip damage without being pocketed the whole game.
to be fair she was never in OW1 so we don't really know, but Spilo was the OWL coach, so I would trust his opinion. But her kit is about going in and being aggressive: Shout for the engagement, the burst damage on the axe and the knife combo paired with the sustain to keep her in the fight.
@@bigfudge2031 I mean everything you just said describes the off tank role to a tee. She can’t shield or tank very well at all compared to other main tanks but she can snag people up and assasinate them the way hog or Dva can. To your point we know off tank doesn’t exist in this game anymore but if it did JQ would definitely be a better off tank than she has been a main tank. Her pick rate indicates this and if you ever play open queue she is great as the second tank.
considering 5v5, it seems more worthwhile to design and balance solo tank around comp styles instead of main tank (initiator) and off tank (enabler) styles. i dont think we need all tanks to initiate violently, as long as they can work in a viable comp style.
I just hope they don’t rework dva and make her completely different but would there be equivalents for off tank and main tank in DPS and support? Like a more dps style support like moira or zen and then a more healer style support like mercy or life weaver.
Wouldn't 2 tank - 2 DPS - 1 support be way healthier? Or, get hybrid role heroes (Zarya being tank/support, Hog being tank/DPS or Zen being support/DPS), since open Q seems like a no-no in the community?
I fully agree with this and always overwatch identity as this That's part of ow2 issue now every tank has to be a main tank now and a lot of people specifically elo don't like to play and never knew how too Overwatch is a chess game but none if these new or current players see it n tbh I see why blizzard gutted this game so ...yeah But please guys LEARN HOW TO PLAY TANK
OW1 for the fist 3 years was designed around open queue. The best meta once role lock happened took them over a year to figure out (role lock in august 2019, everyone's favorite patch Oct 2020), and it lasted only a season before they kinda just reverted back to bad balance philosophy for the next 2 years. 2-2-2 may have been the most fun for a large portion of the community, but it's definitely not because the game was always designed around it from the start.
This is why I hate that people like samito say 5v5 can't work out or that the format is bad. I've played at least 3 hero shooters with 5v5 being the format that were way more balanced and fun than overwatch. The difference being that they are made with 5v5 in mind, not just haphazardly dropping a player.
@@lordmew5The mindset of the players is also fundamentally different, Overwatch players expect the tank to HOLD and CREATE space. Something that the off tanks used to share the responsibilities of. Now that it isnt there the dps never adapted.
@@lordmew5Samito explicitly said in many videos that 5v5 CAN work but it would requires much more drastic reworks and it would not be as good as 6v6. But I agree with you to some extent, when talking about the super tanks he often says stuff like "this is the only way for 5v5 to work" when Spilo offered other solutions many times based on a different tank philosophy.
The deal with age of empires counters revolves alot around cost and bonus damage. Pikes deal bonus damage to cavalry and are trash units.(trash units dont cost gold) monks can convert units which makes them devastating to knights because they are so gold intensive. Age of empires is such a good game because you cant just make a bunch of pikeman and monks to counter a cavalry civilization. Because they can add archers or anti infantry seige machines. And then there are odd balls like the goths unique unit that is anti archer despite being an infantry unit.
In other words overwatch 1 was a team game that requires you to pick around teammates which no one wants to do. While overwatch 2 ,can be played as a team game, is more individual focused to eliminate the lowest of lows of overwatch 1. While the best way of getting rid of the lows is to further limit player options in a role by excluding or I should say deleting a second tank
Thanks Spilo! I play a lot of Open Queue with my partner and the rare instance she plays tank it tends to be Orisa or JQ. Describing off-tanks as not being designed to quickly violently take space vs main tanks which are did a lot to help us figure out that dynamic. Specifically why sometimes Zarya is amazing with her JQ/Orisa vs when it isn't. I've always understand the role of a character like Zarya to support/enable the other tank but not really understood, beyond 'taking space' that violent element necessary in a main tank's kit. Which also explains why Zarya is my go-to if I have an overly aggressive Brig in role queue but it falls so flat other times. If Brig plays like OW2 Brig generally should there's no violent taking of space and thus Zarya's kit doesn't play to its full potential.
I like to play zen and moira cause I can pressure lanes that bad dps’ won’t. The problem is, in my opinion, that we have characters like sombra and widow, and in a lower impact, echo, that their playstyle in solo queue is to make everyone else’s life miserable. The sheer pressure they put in a game by just existing is too much, which makes my enjoyment of the game as a support worse. I have to position in a teamfight way different and a lot of the times be exposed to a plethora of new threats. Hanzo is also going up on that list cause he got his 1 shot back. Anyways, these characters alone hinder my agency to try and carry a game by a lot cause I have to play more defensively and take less risks and this annoys me a lot. It becomes a game of guessing. “Is sombra here?” “Is widow looking at this angle?”, “where’s echo?”. It’s boring af.
Idk if agree with this one my guy. With some decent positioning and timing. You can use dva’s micro missles, hog hook ( and people sleep on the new trap he has. It’s pretty good and on a low cd), and rock is all very good abilities now. They all have like around a 1 sec ttk with the right positioning timing. Zarya is the only one who really doesn’t have much. She lost a lot not being able to just pocket the initiation tank.
In all my years of gaming I have never heard this definition of Main tank and Off tank and I don't really think people used that in OW1 , usually Main tanks, are good at taking damage and protecting their team and Off tanks have more utility, they can do damage or dive or peel for their teammates. I might be wrong but I think that even out side of the more dedicated OW community or high ranks, people don't have that definition of main and off tanks, which is most of the player base.
I agree with the 5v5 point. That 6v6 you needed to work as a team and everyone bringing their flavour to the table and sometimes the team overcooked. BUT when it worked together, the dish was just perfect. I have not once had a single moment of OW2 be in my top 100 OW moments. OW1 had incredible highs and incredible lows. But OW2 is just bland. It's a middle of the road thing. No dopamine is being made so you're just enduring constantly. Is it more balanced, yeah. Is it mind numbing, absofuckinglutely
Not gonna lie Hog was the sole reason I even tried ow1. After countless MMO and Paladins the word tank for me was your definition of main tank "Loud and violent frontliner". When I saw hog demo, one shot, self heal I instantly thought it would be hella fun. Hog was my top 1 pick until I tried genji and he still remains top 2 after genji even tho I almost never play tank in ow2 I wonder how many people like me who played tank abandoned the role because the identity of their favorite character was lost. No wonder 5v5 did not help Q times
Holy crap, I just realized as a gamer that came from Age of Empires to Overwatch........ I'm just a pikeman playing support while the enemy tank is a castle that I'm jabbing to death.
im ngl in medal ranks zarya is definitely a main tank 😂 i am not exaggerating when i say i have never played against a zarya who wasn’t at 100% charge the entire game since overwatch 1. people in medal ranks just shoot her bubble nonstop and attacks are literally never coordinated so you can’t focus her down
As someone who played OW1, 5v5 is horrible. It feels more chaotic. In OW1 if you got 1 pick winning the fight usually tilted in your favor, unless you made a huge mistake. In OW2 you can kill both DPS and still lose the fight from 1 or more people on your team zoning out and not paying attention. Which happens at least 50% of the time. Too many moments of “what happened!? What the hell!?” in OW2 5v5. And they keep trying to fix it with passives and bandaid fixes when OW1 6v6 didn’t need any of that. What broke OW1 was immortality abilities and strong AOE.. and they blamed tanks. So now we have 5v5. And they doubled down on breaking supports - we have 3 invulnerability abilities now. And tanks are just so hard to kill.
Tbf skill issue. Its Just an adjustement the tank gameplay is différent now. It requires more map awareness (its simpler than 6v6) and patience. There are times hiding behind à wall is best.
@@charlesgadino1657 It's a breaking point that makes the game not enjoyable, engaging, or fun. It's an adjustment that most people are unable/unwilling to make. You could say not wanting to watch paint dry is a skill issue too.
man honestly for all the flaws 5v5 has over 6v6, things being more chaotic is not one of them im. sorry but the mere presence of two more huge ass tanks on the screen just does make things more chaotic
@@Luke42652 for you its not enjoyeable. Just because most popular content creators started complaining, doesnt make it à statement for the community. Before that it was only à minority still talking about how 6v6 is better. Personally i have no issue with 5v5 as it also solve problem like queue time and bad synergies (we got counterwatch instead).
As someone who came to ow1 late (season 35), it was getting really dull. I wouldn't have stuck with the game if ow2 didn't happen. I love the chaos of ow2
I dont really agree with your definitions simply due to the fact that defence exists and quickly and violently initiating on defence is a good way to feed and lose games. A simpler definition is that main tanks create and hold space ahead of your team. Off tanks create and hold space everywhere else, filling in the gaps in your teams armor.
Yea when dps refuses to go off route and face tank the enemy tank and dps down the middle(lujang tower bridge pain). Absolutely the majority of my L are like that. Oof even worse when I got a zen or moira acting as a loud violent tank and they get smoke cuz they Frontlining but as a tank player I get flamed anyways
I don't think Doomfist in his tank form is a main tank, I think he's like a more mobile version of Roadhog, where he acts selfishly and independantly, moving in and out building shield and going for individual picks. He by all means should supplement space with his disruption, rather than create it in a hypothetical 2 tank. At the very least, he'd probably be able to go either way
you are seriously telling me that a doomfist punching an entire team of people which can physically displace them, stun them, and gives him shields on top of having an AOE damage ability, AOE ult, and a shotgun cannot create space?
@@prod.fffeedback7679 I think if you're punching into the entire enemy team and staying there, especially with nerfed HP, you're probably playing him wrong? He's not as resilient as Ball, the best way to play Doom is selfishly. Take angles, force the enemy to look at you and address you, but let the main tank push main. Again, I think maybe the line's blurred a bit with this character, and it may even come down to matchup, but calling him a main tank doesn't feel correct to me
28:23 don’t you think that overall player knowledge has increased and people would prefer to swap to characters that compliment their team rather than swap to counter? The issue you’re talking about is the randomness of people not picking the right heroes for a decent comp, but this problem actually adds dynamics to the game making comps that you normally wouldn’t try, this first happen in 5v5 because people just counter swap.
So on Sigma throwing rock in the face stunning with two shots afterwards that kills almost every squish at the game is not considered as a “LOUD VIOLENT IMMEDIATE INSTANT THREAT”? Dva that charges into squish bumping them and shooting with rockets is not considered as a “LOUD VIOLENT IMMEDIATE INSTANT THREAT”? Hooking someone on pig pen and killing it with shotgun is not… anyways, whatever
Overwatch 1 did have a big issue of at least one person not willing to help make a 'great meal' but imo that can be solved SUPER simply. Valorant's community has their comps pretty much down. You didn't lock duelist in the first 5 seconds? We've got 2 of them now, so you better pick something else buddy. It's not the best solution, I hate it a ton honestly. But it's a standard players will learn within a week of playing the game. Where does Overwatch teach you when a pick isn't okay? I'd argue you shouldn't go Mercy when you have a Torbjorn and a Venture, for obvious reasons... But there's simply no standard set by the developers once so ever. The only reason Valorant formed a (bad) standard naturally is because of the lock in system where you pick now and can't change. Don't get me wrong, it's different than here, but it's really just as simple as TRYING to influence SOME sort of pattern in picking synergies... Personally, I was really offended when the endorsement system was toned down to be basically useless now besides kicking people out of match chat if they leave too many quickplay games. You'd generally locate your main tank player by the shot caller area of endorsements. Don't get me wrong, the other 2 selections in the endorsements I can hardly remember and probably should've been changed out to something more.. Specific to a part of the meal we need. But it's better than nothing!! Overwatch chooses to do nothing now, just leaves their players to pick whatever they want whenever they want with no expectation of anything more intentional. This feels SUPER bad in quickplay personally I can't play it, ALL you're gonna get is rein/doom/hog because 'theyre the fun ones'. Like okay I guess if I EVER wanna queue quickplay I better queue tank myself and I'll be the 1 Zarya in quickplay. Not exactly related to the topic since you CAN synergize with rein/doom/hog, but it sure aint fun. Moira Mercy still isn't guided as a bad decision in this game by the way. A new player would probably have to play 500+ games to figure out Mercy Moira is bad, which is INSANE to me.
Valorant isnt really comparable since while the ideal is 2-1-1-1, you really can get away with any team comp as long as one agent has smokes so its really not different ingredients coming together, its just do you have the base
Yeah but even in OW1 where it did have guidance with things like "Too many snipers" "too many x damage heroes" "not enough tanks" "not enough support" etc... in the open queue world of the first 3 years of OW...the vast majority of players ignored it outside of high elo, scrims, and OWL. Like yes Role Queue was partially an answer to Goats, but it was also to force any kind of team comp....and even then it just forced role comps, it didn't force synergies at all, because people straight up will play what they want to play You could have the game have a pop up when you have Mercy/Lucio or Mercy/LW or LW/Moira etc...comp that tells you that it is bad for the game. You could have players yelling at you in game to tell you to swap... it will not stop people from playing what they want. In fact especially with the latter, it'll just make the game quickly turn into "Who will throw first, the person being told to swap, or the person who is mad at the person" Sure it's "better than nothing" in the most literal of terms, but in the most practical of terms it is effectively nothing. And you cannot compare Valorant to OW. Valorant is appealing to the CS hyper competitive crowd.... OW wasn't even developed to be competitive, yes they eventually pushed it to be more competitive, but it is still, at its core, a casual game with competitive elements. It's why QP has 70%+ of the player base and comp has like 20% obviously there's some overlap between like QP and comp, but even if all 20% of comp play QP too and you subtract that from QP, that's more than half the player base being almost exclusively QP, and open queue and arcade modes are not competitive either, nor is the game remotely balanced around them.
@@ashestoashes6809 the issue I see is in valorant people know what a stupid pick is but overwatch and it's community has basically nothing to say Moira mercy is F tier
@@MxChloeB42 people will play what they wanna play truthfully in either game, but giving even hints to an understanding of a good or bad pick isn't just "nothing". There are SO many opinions in this game for how your hero pool should be to climb optimally, or even confusion amongst what heroes do well together vs what counters each other. The game being more casual makes those kinds of hints even more important imo. And we're not just banning comparing the two games cause they're different. That's a really lame argument.
she can speed amp herself and gracie is just better than hook in multiple ways, also junkerqueens self healing comes from dealing damage where as hog has to stop doing anything to heal so they are not really comparable
Main tank isn't about quick burst of push. Main tank is just the guy who can stay out of cover for long. They are more like stabilizer, anchor that you and enemies can play around. JQ isn't a main tank. JQ is a dps. Main tanks are Rein, Sigma, Orisa, Ramattra, Winston. Main tank isn't about dealing violent damage, main tank is about dealing predictible steady damage. Remember, enemies also play around main tank, not just friendlies. Dev incompetency really fcked up these concepts and people's perception of it. There are so many abominations and imbalance in the game people don't know what is what anymore.
This is how I see it: 1. Most people just want to play the one or few characters they like, whether that's because of their gameplay, aesthetics, lore, whatever. 2. Most people simply do not have the time and effort to put in to properly learn more than that one or few characters. Therefore, to me, the correct decision is to make all characters "more samey" (I'm using this because I've seen people use "samey" to criticise newer character design). What I actually mean is move away from very niche to more generalist, "works in many situations" type kits, and not only in how they interact with other heroes, but how they interact with the maps. This has been in the game since the beginning, ALL supports heal, but the way they do it is different and sometimes unique to them, and it's very frustrating that it feels like this concept isn't applied to tanks especially, but instead they double down on their niches and the counterswapping. Zen is a glass cannon. He has no mobility and no self sustain and very low healing. His ultimate gives him mobility, self sustain, and huge healing. That doesn't make him less of a glass cannon, it just gives him a tool to supplement his weaknesses very infrequently, and it puts the choice of WHEN to use those tools in the player's hands. Making tanks objectively the strongest player in the team HURTS EVERYBODY. I say "objectively" because open queue right now is 4 tanks and a moira. It hurts tanks, because the pressure and weight on your shoulders to perform is huge. It hurts supports, because it's more efficient to healbot the tank than help damage or be aggressive yourself or make creative plays. It hurts damage, because they literally are ignored by their supports and end up with disproportionately more deaths (aka less PLAYING time) than the other roles.
The problem is in the hero design though. If you bring tank health in, closer to where it was in OW1, they still have all the size, and become the primary target of damage, meaning they just die faster and then fit the dps problem you’re describing. With only one tank, it’s just hard to improve this problem. Especially since OW players seem to truly hate cc. The one thing I think they could do to make tanks an active threat in 5v5 without them being unkillable titans or taking over the dps role, would be to let them have cc abilities. It’s an active threat that doesn’t mean immediate death. I’d actually argue that Mei would make a solid tank under this design direction. But again people hate cc, so this will never happen.
@@Kintaku my idea is to make tank and support passives more like the damage passive. For Tanks, dealing damage reduces enemy damage dealt, and for supports, healing an ally reduces the damage they take. Im sure there's issues I cant possibly think of with that too, but at least it's an "active" passive that you have power to decide when and on who to use.
@@theshard5697 I think there’s a few issues there. The front-of-mind one would just be that you can’t see it happen. But reducing damage for supports would be complained about as well. I’m not a fan of role passives in general but mainly because they don’t distribute power evenly. This one for example would be incredibly strong on character like Lucio and Brig who are always healing the entire team. Meanwhile characters like Juno or Zen would barely get any value from it. The tank passive isn’t entirely a bad idea, in that it requires action to get value, but falls under the same uneven distribution problem. The one other idea I like (but think won’t happen) is Spilo’s idea to just make the tanks smaller. There’s already precedent for this being effective in Junker Queen.
@@Kintaku yea I mean... ideally there wouldnt be any passives and they'd just let characters be characters, but since they keep doubling down on this... Another thing Id do instead of hitbox changes would be give more tanks access to overhealth, like Rein through firestrike or hog through vape maybe
@@theshard5697 that one’s interesting. Giving tanks normalized health but with access to Venture-style overhealth through abilities could be interesting. I really just wish they would TRY more things beyond just number tweaks.
I call them support tanks since it’s easier for new players to understand And so that it sounds worse for some tanks when i call them being bad because they play rein like he’s a off tank 😂
Dude I tried playn tank recently and dammit it's so boring now. Without the offtank role overwatch just feels like a worse paladins in it's current state (to me atleast, tho that is due to a mix of the lack of a second tank and the current balance in the game and dps tanks being more and more present)
Do you think 6v6 is the answer? I didnt play ow1 as much as ow2 (1100 hours and 800 r ow2) but from what i remember the fights were longer and i felt like i didnt have as much impact on a fight than now (i am support) but on the other hand i only started getting better in ow2 (2000 sr now mid diamond) so that might be the reason i feel that way Edit: The replies made me realise I like ow2 more since I'm a support main and 1 less tank gives me more opportunities to do dmg and not only heal but if I was a dps main id want 2 tanks so I can have some help I can't form an opinion on what id want if I mained tank because I don't play it
@Qaadree (I might have posted this comment twice by mistake) I literally remember u commenting on my tiktok a year ago!! Exactly same pfp and user I just checked BTW I agree with u
In OW1 supports had a lot less agency because they were required to heal a lot more to keep 2 tanks alive and also more mitigation made it less effective to use abilities offensively as well.
Overwatch 1 had stricter roles and was much more team orientated. You could shit your brain off way more and just play your role right and the more everyone on the team did that the better. I prefer it that way, I hate having to dual sweaty ass hit scan heroes constantly because I liked outplaying people on tank without just mechanics.
I don't think you can make the argument "if thats what *you* prefer" if the game was far more popular and liked in the 6v6 format even with the fact it was easier to get griefed. Add MT/OT roles or make all roles one SR, take even HALF of the aggression for chat bans into gameplay bans, even seperate the tank role into categories (people used to talk about the "need more defensive heroes" even though it was useless) Where are the OW2 exciting moments? People used to be hype with ult combos and that just doesn't happen anymore. People crying about individual agency but you literally have one narrow decisionmaking flowchart on every role. Go play starcraft or quake. I'd rather eat good food and shit food than be perpetually served gruel. There just aren't any exciting moments. I want tanks to die if I shoot them 5 times in the head with Ashe but you cannot have that in 5v5.
Someone in chat said "My dad must have been a main Tank" and I spit out my drink.
Wait that's actually frickin hilarious in Ohio, bruh
Main Tanks: "I will speak to you in the only language you understand... VIOLENCE!"
Whatever happen to predictability, the milk man, the offtank, the evening tv?
@nunyabeezwax6758Dive his backline
@nunyabeezwax6758 you don't, really. Wasn't that his point as a character? They want to stop counterpicking
Back in OW1 I was an off tank specialist. Specifically my main was Zarya. It was just really fun having the role of fending off flankers and or enabling the main tank to take space and sometimes DPS. Zarya is still my favorite tank to play but I had to adjust my play style into a less fun role for me.
I loved her in ow1 but now i dont find her nearly as satisfying
as a rein main, maybe we have met, but thank you for the bubbles so I can fight with honor and glory o7
now I can only honor and sissy
@@CrAzY799999if we did thank YOU for giving me the charge 😂 Reinhardts payed my bills in OW1
Same for me with Dva and I loved playing with my tank buddies. Ive been playing deadlock now and I’ll try overwatch again when they do the 6v6 tests.
Zarya main here too. She had a lot more skill expression in ow1. I feel like now she mostly just gets used to counterswap dva :( I still occasionally play her but tank in general just rly sucks to play rn
I was an off tank player in ow1 but can't even touch tank anymore, Spilo perfectly described how I play Mei and Venture now
I miss bubbling my reinhard pookie bear soo much 😢
or bubbling winstons bubble butt as he places a bubble :(
@@ArdaSReal OW1 - pookie bear
OW2 - Polar Bear
Rein Zarya on King's Row 😢
I do it all the time!
Open queue is still a thing. Though admittedly fewer and fewer players remember the old ways.
Good point i always forget it exists, usually i just play workshop modes @@Cheebzsta
Tank skill expression is disappearing so quickly now. Not only is it all counterpicking, but it is too hard to punish tiny mistakes
Yup. Was rolling a team as Dva and what happened next round? Hog, symm and Moira oh and Mei. It makes the game miserable. All of my good plays meant nothing because the whole team swapped.
@@Virtualwhiterabbit Does everyone really remember there being no counterpicking in OW1
@pithagorian4394 there was counterpicking in ow1 but it wasnt nearly as effective and you were penalized more for it. Back in the day a counterpick still had counterplay, and no ult charge was transferred between swaps which usually meant that the person swapping to counterpick still had to be the better player.
@@pithagorian4394there was counterpicking but because 1 tank back then was just another player focusing, counterswapping and solo ulting the tank brought much less value where as now even though its not the optimal strat it still brings disproportional value from the amount of effort you put in
@@pithagorian4394 counter picking is wayyyy worse in ow2. In ow1 I could easily outplay any of my counters no matter how frustrating it got
Ball used to be able to boop tanks in ow1. I was actually a threat to a tank in ow1. Ball lost so much in ow2. Rip
I decided I wanted to learn to play ball and it was really fun. After a certain point, It’s now just turned into the entire team immediately picking counters after first death. Unless you’re a GM level Ball, I feel in 5v5, you can only get so far with tanks like that.
Absolutely ball bro. You cant even boop a Rein off the map when he's an inch from the edge, yet Lucio or Brig can boop 2x as far?? Make it make sense
@claridge7549 ball is just super dependent on his team to follow up. You can be rank 1 ball but if your team doesnt follow up its hard to secure kills. Part of it is ball's damage, probably the lowest tank damage hero, combined with higher hp pools. Or if you have a crappy comp that doesn't enable ball, its gonna be tough. That said, I have 1000's of hours on ball and I make magic happen😅 but I really feel for aplayers new trying to learn ball bc you have to be 2 or 3steps ahead of every other hero, work 10x harder, just to get a fraction of the value
Hello I’m a doomfist main but the tanks recently got there tank passive nerfed (40% > 25% knockback reduction) this has greatly helped doomfist once again be able to fight tanks but just knocking them far back. Are you telling me Ball did not receive this?
@@kingclampz6081 ball did not get this.
Reaper is the main tank for Zarya now. Change my mind.
edit- wait he said it like 2 minutes later
In my honest opinion, Reaper or Torb can serve as secondary “tanks”. Unfortunately Bastion can’t, but he should be.
Samito has an interesting analogy saying that 2-2-2 felt like a dance between tank duos. I think this is a great analogy, because being in sync with a partner is super fluid and fun and much better than being alone. At the same time, it's super annoying when your partner refuses to get in sync with you, goes off and does their own thing, or forces you to do what they want. Rein/Zar on Kings Row will always be wonderful, but what about having an Ori 1 trick on Watchpoint or having 2 offtank players running Zar/DVA against a full rush comp. If we go back full 2-2-2 we either make every tank duo viable (balance nightmare) or we just have to accept that every once in a while you just auto lose because the 2 tank players can't get along and there's really nothing you can do about it.
i agree with this (except for the need to make all tank duos viable, because that's impossible), and i think this carries over to 5v5 as well! the two tanks are just merged into one now, so if your tank is not working with the team or getting hard-countered and won't swap, then it creates a similar situation. i seriously miss tank synergies and it's just not as fun with just 1 tank, even if you synergise with the rest of your team, because instead of 2 big fellas working together it's just you and your squishies. ow1 has a place in my heart
I agree with a lot of this, but in 5v5 you auto lose if your one tank just doesn't know what they're doing. Tank is even harder to play with just one and a lot of people refuse to actually learn the characters and just play because "tank strong" leading to a higher likely hood of your only tank losing you the game before they even queu
Samito is a crybaby farming idiots for content
Yes 6v6 is perfect and the tank dance and the off synergy is still superior to alone ow2 5v5 tank
@@warlordapollyon2754 skill based matchmaking exists in quickplay and comp. if your tank does not know what they are doing then no one else in the lobby should. tank is easier to play, by a long shot as you have less teammates and enemies to track (less cooldowns ults etc) and instead of having to worry about synergizing with my other tank, or getting attention from my supports, it is blatantly obvious to my supports that I need some amount of resources from them specifically.
As a DVa/Zarya and occasional Orisa (when people complained for a shield/main tank) 2-3 trick on tank
I really freaking miss playing tank. It's just so miserable to play in OW2 because I'm not a tank player. I'm an off-tank player. 😢
I miss flank Hog the most. Hog was never supposed to be the frontline guy, he doesn't work in 5v5 and it sucks.
The gag is…NOW people play OW2 this way like it’s OW1 because it took ALL THIS TIME for people to learn the game since OW doesn’t teach you how to ACTUALLY play. It’s annoying AF
31:00 I really dont like the implied arguement here that it may be better to have inferior gameplay across the board so its more consistent for worse players.
Of course thats not the best arguement either but I played in the metal ranks and enjoyed the gameplay back then much more. Even with all the lows sometimes. The Highs are what kept me playing even through the content drought.
he literally explicitly avoids giving an opinion exactly at the timestamp you put how can peoples comprehension be so terrible
I think an interesting zarya rework idea would be giving her orisa's old halt
Honestly might not be too bad but people do not want their characters to change
When they even mentioned thinking about changing Reinhardt everyone went crazy and was up in arms about it so I don't think we can change any of the og characters without people getting mad
ability was super annoying to play against
Tank main here. Haven’t been back to ow2 since marvel rivals beta. 2000+ ow hrs but absolutely zero desire to return. I acknowledge that MR is in honeymoon phase but it was just so glaringly obvious that the game played better with 2 tanks
6v6 is coming hang in there off-tank bros
Yeah in like season 13 or maybe even 14
True but I don't know if they'd balance it well, plus it depends on what things they choose to keep in the game and remove, like retaining ult charge and some of the new tank tools
@@akai_shuichi_x the funny part is, theres a 6vs6 code thats decent so watch the devs make a worse job then a team with the workshop only
@@Glizzyman most of that will be from the workshop code only leaving in as many changes since October 2022 (abilities/weapons) as it has too, meanwhile the devs will be converting the current version of the game. But who knows, they might be using that code as a jumping off point for their own rebalance.
@@Glizzymanthe 6v6 code is horrible lmao it has the worst balancing iv ever seen and im not blaming the creators since theres only so much they can do, but blizzard will most likely do a better job. My hope is for hog and doom to get reverted 🙏🙏🙏🤞🤞🤞
Great video! Really appreciate your educational content. You do a really good job of explaining things, and I can tell you're interested and invested in what you're talking about, and it makes it great to watch/listen.
I would love to see a video on ur take on a hypothetical 2-1-2. The goods, bads, and the other things
Spilo I just fundamentally disagree with your take at the end. People fell in love with OW because of the unique heroes. The game is being made bland in their attempt to remove the rough edges. What can Bastion be with a hitbox his size? He has to be a turret. Torb and Reaper are basically just the shotty guy with a turret or with a teleport. Hog can’t but also can one shot. It’s silly. A lot of us miss the way the game was because of the opportunity and I’d even deal with the whack team comps in quick play with my low rank friends because it was FUN even if suboptimal. Then at high ranks the peaks were leagues higher. Also what you are describing with the low lows is not even a factor in 6v6 role lock any more than it is in 5v5. Finally, who is to say we can’t have a single queue with roles that fill up so that it creates freedom and stability? They really need to reconsider not only 5v5 but how they’ve changed heroes because so many are just bland now. There is a way to have unique heroes but some stability (6v6 open queue with role limit) but they just never tried it.
Honestly they just need to rework bastion into the tank category similar to doomfist plus unlike doomfist JQ and zarya the bastion has a tank like size
"What you are describing isn't even a factor" don't bother arguing on the internet if this is the level of intellectual intelligence and honesty you bring to the table
I like this guy. He reminds me of an actual teacher, asking questions and the chat answers. If only Overwatch was a subject in school 😔
Haven't played OW since the disastrous launch of OW2 after taking a long break from OW1. I was a Dva one trick and I got flashbacks to absolutely hating every single ball I had to play with because all they wanted to do was run the flank and spin on point, even up in 3700+. I have basically no context for the current state of OW but listening to you talk about the strategy for controlling lanes and team-wide decision making made me miss the old group I used to run with. Some of my favorite gaming memories are from OW1 and the horrific mishandling of the IP will always be one of the biggest letdowns for me.
yeah there where a lot more bad compositions in low ello in ow 1, but the enemies also didn't know how to punish those weaknesses. I played mostly in bronze through gold back in ow 1, and the amount of times my team wanted to go "double shield" than picked Orisa + Reinhardt and WON is so funny now that I'm looking back on it.
a lot of these "less counters" in ow 2 come from the more rounded hero design and not the format. 6v6 plus not having to deal with old bastion / mei / cass stun would feel a lot better imo
After watching the vid I first didnt think this was rly important. Few days later and I realized how important all this synergy is. Especially considering I main off-tanks and off-dps
Thanks!
Beautiful video
I can not agree more to all this.
Such concepts are really things that make ow interesting. Thanks
Remember those terms from OW1? I’ve been begging for that to come back since OW2 released! I think about them every day…
You're so right about the square peg with Dva
She's not a main tank but listen, she's what we got - and she's so overtuned sometimes she just gets it done
But as the Rein, Winston, Sigma player who would main tank for my Dva for years - sometimes I can tell that they are just used to playing with a really high-quality shield and don't always prepare to play around certain abilities and ultimates (that I typically used to take care of when we would Tank Duo)
When the enemies pull out certain degenerate comps I can tell my Dva player is gonna have a bad game - and sometimes if I see them get Earth shattered or Mei slowed too many times in one night I gotta do tank queue for a lil and hold 'er down with some Reinhardt - but frankly I miss duo Tank queues and Off-tank hero design in general
Thinking on making DM more useful without eating, it could be upgraded like one of Dva's talents from HotS. Ablative armor has the mech regen 50% of the magic damage it takes over 3 seconds. Maybe in 5v5 Defense Matrix would have Dva's mech regen 50% of the damage it took while active. While this applies to all damage taken during DM, Dva can still be burst down by the same amount as now, DM has to end, its susceptible to healing reduction. It would lead to Dva using DM more often as a means of sustain rather than sitting on it and always having it ready for important cooldowns or pocketing allies, the regen aspect making it more dynamic than simple damage reduction since we aren't removing its current function.
In OW1, I played a game on Kings Row with a Rein/Hog duo. Last corner leading to second point, the Hog snuck into the subway and yoinked enemy Rein like a comedian bombing on stage and our Rein shattering everyone else. Weird tank pairings can be fun. And sorry about all the ands.
I've never been good at Overwatch, but I've noticed the shift in how I play heros after the switch to 5v5.
In OW1, I hated playing tank because they felt so ineffectual. For context, I play DPS-maining Ashe. Tank to me felt like standing around and waiting to get shot at, which is not fun for me. I felt much more at home playing hitscan and taking picks.
In OW2, tanks feel much better to play for me, and I think that's a problem. Tanks are a lot more super-charged now and able to secure more kills, but as a result, DPS is less effective to compensate. It's so hard to be effective as DPS since tanks are nigh impossible to kill if they're getting proper support and so many support heros now can match the damage of DPS. As a DPS player in OW2, I don't even know what to do with myself. It's like all the damage heros have lost their identities. And that's to say nothing of what they've done to Cassidy and Reaper.
I always felt that DVa should be able to shoot while using her matrix, albeit with a much slower rate of fire or making her spend her matrix faster.
She's either defending, or attacking. Winston can do both, so it feels much more fluid and « violent » (to reuse your term) despite the low damage, he can hit while juggling with his shield so you can do stuff on your own.
Despite being a DVa main since 2016, I never felt like I could do things on my own in OW2
9:45 Did mrs. Spilo finish her under the table -visit
The biggest loss in Overwatch 2 was tank synergy. Losing the duo tank engagement model, threw all Overwatch players off whack, and they are all now finally realizing that you cant play OW2 like the old game. Supports and Damage heroes are a lot more active and need to play more aggressive where they can. Damage and support needed to know how to peel in the old game, but that was more high level strat. Now, if your damage or support can't peel, you will struggle. You can't just run down mid and rely on your tank to keep everyone from taking damage. Tanks need to play selfishly for the most part, they need to take space abd good trades. Two unkillable orisas staring at eachother in a choke is not the strat.
Rein being the leader and zarya being the enabler for reins shenanigans will never be replaced, and they fucking replaced it…
Don't give in! Open queue exists! The dream lives on! Junker Queen/Zarya, Ram/Zarya, Doom/Zarya, Mauga/Zarya, you have not even seen the promised land! SO MUCH ENERGY! XD
"Main" tanks have kits that are essentially melee(close quarters) focused and thus have "space creating" potential. Shields facilitate this by being a direct mitigator of oncoming damage which itself inhibits space creation. Like Spilo says in the video the larger health pools is really at a minimum secondary to the kit itself in what determines being a tank in general but especially for a main tank.
Ow1 was made for 6v6. Ow2 was a failed shift to 5v5. But Now we are at the point where 6v6 wouldnt feel the same as ow1 because the game has changed so much.
15:49 BIG MEATY TANKS, SLAPPING MEAT
I always looked at off tanks differently. As they can apply damage, peel for other characters wether it was the hook, bubble or Matrix. This was how it was played in the metal ranks. The main tank offered pressure and protection as in a shield. Thats why if we went to 6v6 Maugua, Queen, would be used for off tanks. This philosophy is based how these tanks are being played now in Open Que and in metal ranks. The reason is because there are a lot of passive tank players that just dont play aggressively because they dont want to die. Thats why as an OW1 Rein player when if I play Tank and play Rein the whole lobby switches to counter me because they dont see such aggressive tank play.
I would argue that Junkerqueen is an off tank. She just can’t absorb as much damage nor mitigate damage like the others. Her lack of armor keeps her from being able to deal with chip damage without being pocketed the whole game.
MT/OT doesn't exist in 5v5. Only Raidboss Tanks.
But yeah, in 6v6 JQ would for sure be an OT.
to be fair she was never in OW1 so we don't really know, but Spilo was the OWL coach, so I would trust his opinion.
But her kit is about going in and being aggressive: Shout for the engagement, the burst damage on the axe and the knife combo paired with the sustain to keep her in the fight.
she doesn’t have a kit to be an off tank besides her shout
@@bigfudge2031 "Was"
@@bigfudge2031 I mean everything you just said describes the off tank role to a tee. She can’t shield or tank very well at all compared to other main tanks but she can snag people up and assasinate them the way hog or Dva can. To your point we know off tank doesn’t exist in this game anymore but if it did JQ would definitely be a better off tank than she has been a main tank. Her pick rate indicates this and if you ever play open queue she is great as the second tank.
They got removed in the swap to Overwatch 2, sad you’re only finding out now 😩
i started only on ow2, really excited for the 6v6 if the devs really go for it
considering 5v5, it seems more worthwhile to design and balance solo tank around comp styles instead of main tank (initiator) and off tank (enabler) styles. i dont think we need all tanks to initiate violently, as long as they can work in a viable comp style.
I just hope they don’t rework dva and make her completely different but would there be equivalents for off tank and main tank in DPS and support? Like a more dps style support like moira or zen and then a more healer style support like mercy or life weaver.
Called Main/Flex DPS & Support.
Flex DPS is also sometimes called Utility DPS
Wouldn't 2 tank - 2 DPS - 1 support be way healthier? Or, get hybrid role heroes (Zarya being tank/support, Hog being tank/DPS or Zen being support/DPS), since open Q seems like a no-no in the community?
Came back to Overwatch last week, haven’t played since I think Baptiste release. The counter picking is fucking crazy!
I really wish when I was in stream for the random group thing that I brought up the vanilla extract tumblr meme
I think Spilo got hungry towards the end..
I fully agree with this and always overwatch identity as this
That's part of ow2 issue now every tank has to be a main tank now and a lot of people specifically elo don't like to play and never knew how too
Overwatch is a chess game but none if these new or current players see it n tbh I see why blizzard gutted this game so ...yeah
But please guys
LEARN HOW TO PLAY TANK
Overwatch was always built for 2 tanks. For a 1 tank Overwatch to exist it needed a completely different foundation which the devs simply didn’t do.
In OW early days, a lot of games had one tank and 3 dps. The 2-2-2 format came along later
OW1 for the fist 3 years was designed around open queue. The best meta once role lock happened took them over a year to figure out (role lock in august 2019, everyone's favorite patch Oct 2020), and it lasted only a season before they kinda just reverted back to bad balance philosophy for the next 2 years. 2-2-2 may have been the most fun for a large portion of the community, but it's definitely not because the game was always designed around it from the start.
This is why I hate that people like samito say 5v5 can't work out or that the format is bad. I've played at least 3 hero shooters with 5v5 being the format that were way more balanced and fun than overwatch. The difference being that they are made with 5v5 in mind, not just haphazardly dropping a player.
@@lordmew5The mindset of the players is also fundamentally different, Overwatch players expect the tank to HOLD and CREATE space. Something that the off tanks used to share the responsibilities of. Now that it isnt there the dps never adapted.
@@lordmew5Samito explicitly said in many videos that 5v5 CAN work but it would requires much more drastic reworks and it would not be as good as 6v6. But I agree with you to some extent, when talking about the super tanks he often says stuff like "this is the only way for 5v5 to work" when Spilo offered other solutions many times based on a different tank philosophy.
The deal with age of empires counters revolves alot around cost and bonus damage. Pikes deal bonus damage to cavalry and are trash units.(trash units dont cost gold) monks can convert units which makes them devastating to knights because they are so gold intensive. Age of empires is such a good game because you cant just make a bunch of pikeman and monks to counter a cavalry civilization. Because they can add archers or anti infantry seige machines. And then there are odd balls like the goths unique unit that is anti archer despite being an infantry unit.
Mei is the only character filling the "Off-Tank" role, if ya think I am wrong, I'de like some critiques.
venture reaper
Wasn't venture a main tank?@@prod.fffeedback7679
In other words overwatch 1 was a team game that requires you to pick around teammates which no one wants to do. While overwatch 2 ,can be played as a team game, is more individual focused to eliminate the lowest of lows of overwatch 1. While the best way of getting rid of the lows is to further limit player options in a role by excluding or I should say deleting a second tank
new guides for when 6v6 comes back let's go
Thanks Spilo! I play a lot of Open Queue with my partner and the rare instance she plays tank it tends to be Orisa or JQ. Describing off-tanks as not being designed to quickly violently take space vs main tanks which are did a lot to help us figure out that dynamic.
Specifically why sometimes Zarya is amazing with her JQ/Orisa vs when it isn't. I've always understand the role of a character like Zarya to support/enable the other tank but not really understood, beyond 'taking space' that violent element necessary in a main tank's kit.
Which also explains why Zarya is my go-to if I have an overly aggressive Brig in role queue but it falls so flat other times. If Brig plays like OW2 Brig generally should there's no violent taking of space and thus Zarya's kit doesn't play to its full potential.
I like to play zen and moira cause I can pressure lanes that bad dps’ won’t. The problem is, in my opinion, that we have characters like sombra and widow, and in a lower impact, echo, that their playstyle in solo queue is to make everyone else’s life miserable. The sheer pressure they put in a game by just existing is too much, which makes my enjoyment of the game as a support worse. I have to position in a teamfight way different and a lot of the times be exposed to a plethora of new threats. Hanzo is also going up on that list cause he got his 1 shot back. Anyways, these characters alone hinder my agency to try and carry a game by a lot cause I have to play more defensively and take less risks and this annoys me a lot. It becomes a game of guessing. “Is sombra here?” “Is widow looking at this angle?”, “where’s echo?”. It’s boring af.
Brig feels like a ow1 off tank
Idk if agree with this one my guy. With some decent positioning and timing. You can use dva’s micro missles, hog hook ( and people sleep on the new trap he has. It’s pretty good and on a low cd), and rock is all very good abilities now. They all have like around a 1 sec ttk with the right positioning timing. Zarya is the only one who really doesn’t have much. She lost a lot not being able to just pocket the initiation tank.
I find this really funny because I was literally thinking about tanks and off tanks earlier today and realized that Jq was a main tank lol.
In all my years of gaming I have never heard this definition of Main tank and Off tank and I don't really think people used that in OW1 , usually Main tanks, are good at taking damage and protecting their team and Off tanks have more utility, they can do damage or dive or peel for their teammates.
I might be wrong but I think that even out side of the more dedicated OW community or high ranks, people don't have that definition of main and off tanks, which is most of the player base.
I agree with the 5v5 point. That 6v6 you needed to work as a team and everyone bringing their flavour to the table and sometimes the team overcooked.
BUT when it worked together, the dish was just perfect. I have not once had a single moment of OW2 be in my top 100 OW moments.
OW1 had incredible highs and incredible lows. But OW2 is just bland. It's a middle of the road thing. No dopamine is being made so you're just enduring constantly. Is it more balanced, yeah. Is it mind numbing, absofuckinglutely
Not gonna lie Hog was the sole reason I even tried ow1. After countless MMO and Paladins the word tank for me was your definition of main tank "Loud and violent frontliner". When I saw hog demo, one shot, self heal I instantly thought it would be hella fun. Hog was my top 1 pick until I tried genji and he still remains top 2 after genji even tho I almost never play tank in ow2
I wonder how many people like me who played tank abandoned the role because the identity of their favorite character was lost. No wonder 5v5 did not help Q times
Holy crap, I just realized as a gamer that came from Age of Empires to Overwatch........ I'm just a pikeman playing support while the enemy tank is a castle that I'm jabbing to death.
Honetly, tanking as DPS is the most fun I've had with the base game.
Got here less than a minute after the upload, i like that
As a support, I loved going off on the side mission with the off tank 🤓 at least having that option was always great
im ngl in medal ranks zarya is definitely a main tank 😂 i am not exaggerating when i say i have never played against a zarya who wasn’t at 100% charge the entire game since overwatch 1. people in medal ranks just shoot her bubble nonstop and attacks are literally never coordinated so you can’t focus her down
As someone who played OW1, 5v5 is horrible. It feels more chaotic. In OW1 if you got 1 pick winning the fight usually tilted in your favor, unless you made a huge mistake. In OW2 you can kill both DPS and still lose the fight from 1 or more people on your team zoning out and not paying attention. Which happens at least 50% of the time. Too many moments of “what happened!? What the hell!?” in OW2 5v5. And they keep trying to fix it with passives and bandaid fixes when OW1 6v6 didn’t need any of that. What broke OW1 was immortality abilities and strong AOE.. and they blamed tanks. So now we have 5v5. And they doubled down on breaking supports - we have 3 invulnerability abilities now. And tanks are just so hard to kill.
Tbf skill issue. Its Just an adjustement the tank gameplay is différent now. It requires more map awareness (its simpler than 6v6) and patience. There are times hiding behind à wall is best.
@@charlesgadino1657 It's a breaking point that makes the game not enjoyable, engaging, or fun. It's an adjustment that most people are unable/unwilling to make. You could say not wanting to watch paint dry is a skill issue too.
man honestly for all the flaws 5v5 has over 6v6, things being more chaotic is not one of them im. sorry but the mere presence of two more huge ass tanks on the screen just does make things more chaotic
@@Luke42652 for you its not enjoyeable. Just because most popular content creators started complaining, doesnt make it à statement for the community. Before that it was only à minority still talking about how 6v6 is better. Personally i have no issue with 5v5 as it also solve problem like queue time and bad synergies (we got counterwatch instead).
As someone who came to ow1 late (season 35), it was getting really dull. I wouldn't have stuck with the game if ow2 didn't happen.
I love the chaos of ow2
That is very much why I like the idea of role lock, you can't make wacky combinations but you don't get 5 jackasses that want to play Genji
ow1 history always comes back somehow
I dont really agree with your definitions simply due to the fact that defence exists and quickly and violently initiating on defence is a good way to feed and lose games.
A simpler definition is that main tanks create and hold space ahead of your team. Off tanks create and hold space everywhere else, filling in the gaps in your teams armor.
Yea when dps refuses to go off route and face tank the enemy tank and dps down the middle(lujang tower bridge pain). Absolutely the majority of my L are like that. Oof even worse when I got a zen or moira acting as a loud violent tank and they get smoke cuz they Frontlining but as a tank player I get flamed anyways
Always keep in mind, support mains are the dumbest people on planet Earth.
I don't think Doomfist in his tank form is a main tank, I think he's like a more mobile version of Roadhog, where he acts selfishly and independantly, moving in and out building shield and going for individual picks. He by all means should supplement space with his disruption, rather than create it in a hypothetical 2 tank. At the very least, he'd probably be able to go either way
you are seriously telling me that a doomfist punching an entire team of people which can physically displace them, stun them, and gives him shields on top of having an AOE damage ability, AOE ult, and a shotgun cannot create space?
@@prod.fffeedback7679 I think if you're punching into the entire enemy team and staying there, especially with nerfed HP, you're probably playing him wrong? He's not as resilient as Ball, the best way to play Doom is selfishly. Take angles, force the enemy to look at you and address you, but let the main tank push main. Again, I think maybe the line's blurred a bit with this character, and it may even come down to matchup, but calling him a main tank doesn't feel correct to me
@@prod.fffeedback7679 Could you clarify what you mean
28:23 don’t you think that overall player knowledge has increased and people would prefer to swap to characters that compliment their team rather than swap to counter? The issue you’re talking about is the randomness of people not picking the right heroes for a decent comp, but this problem actually adds dynamics to the game making comps that you normally wouldn’t try, this first happen in 5v5 because people just counter swap.
So on Sigma throwing rock in the face stunning with two shots afterwards that kills almost every squish at the game is not considered as a “LOUD VIOLENT IMMEDIATE INSTANT THREAT”? Dva that charges into squish bumping them and shooting with rockets is not considered as a “LOUD VIOLENT IMMEDIATE INSTANT THREAT”? Hooking someone on pig pen and killing it with shotgun is not… anyways, whatever
Overwatch 1 did have a big issue of at least one person not willing to help make a 'great meal' but imo that can be solved SUPER simply. Valorant's community has their comps pretty much down. You didn't lock duelist in the first 5 seconds? We've got 2 of them now, so you better pick something else buddy. It's not the best solution, I hate it a ton honestly. But it's a standard players will learn within a week of playing the game.
Where does Overwatch teach you when a pick isn't okay? I'd argue you shouldn't go Mercy when you have a Torbjorn and a Venture, for obvious reasons... But there's simply no standard set by the developers once so ever. The only reason Valorant formed a (bad) standard naturally is because of the lock in system where you pick now and can't change. Don't get me wrong, it's different than here, but it's really just as simple as TRYING to influence SOME sort of pattern in picking synergies... Personally, I was really offended when the endorsement system was toned down to be basically useless now besides kicking people out of match chat if they leave too many quickplay games. You'd generally locate your main tank player by the shot caller area of endorsements. Don't get me wrong, the other 2 selections in the endorsements I can hardly remember and probably should've been changed out to something more.. Specific to a part of the meal we need. But it's better than nothing!! Overwatch chooses to do nothing now, just leaves their players to pick whatever they want whenever they want with no expectation of anything more intentional.
This feels SUPER bad in quickplay personally I can't play it, ALL you're gonna get is rein/doom/hog because 'theyre the fun ones'. Like okay I guess if I EVER wanna queue quickplay I better queue tank myself and I'll be the 1 Zarya in quickplay. Not exactly related to the topic since you CAN synergize with rein/doom/hog, but it sure aint fun. Moira Mercy still isn't guided as a bad decision in this game by the way. A new player would probably have to play 500+ games to figure out Mercy Moira is bad, which is INSANE to me.
Valorant isnt really comparable since while the ideal is 2-1-1-1, you really can get away with any team comp as long as one agent has smokes so its really not different ingredients coming together, its just do you have the base
Yeah but even in OW1 where it did have guidance with things like "Too many snipers" "too many x damage heroes" "not enough tanks" "not enough support" etc... in the open queue world of the first 3 years of OW...the vast majority of players ignored it outside of high elo, scrims, and OWL. Like yes Role Queue was partially an answer to Goats, but it was also to force any kind of team comp....and even then it just forced role comps, it didn't force synergies at all, because people straight up will play what they want to play
You could have the game have a pop up when you have Mercy/Lucio or Mercy/LW or LW/Moira etc...comp that tells you that it is bad for the game. You could have players yelling at you in game to tell you to swap... it will not stop people from playing what they want. In fact especially with the latter, it'll just make the game quickly turn into "Who will throw first, the person being told to swap, or the person who is mad at the person"
Sure it's "better than nothing" in the most literal of terms, but in the most practical of terms it is effectively nothing. And you cannot compare Valorant to OW. Valorant is appealing to the CS hyper competitive crowd.... OW wasn't even developed to be competitive, yes they eventually pushed it to be more competitive, but it is still, at its core, a casual game with competitive elements. It's why QP has 70%+ of the player base and comp has like 20% obviously there's some overlap between like QP and comp, but even if all 20% of comp play QP too and you subtract that from QP, that's more than half the player base being almost exclusively QP, and open queue and arcade modes are not competitive either, nor is the game remotely balanced around them.
@@ashestoashes6809 the issue I see is in valorant people know what a stupid pick is but overwatch and it's community has basically nothing to say Moira mercy is F tier
@@MxChloeB42 people will play what they wanna play truthfully in either game, but giving even hints to an understanding of a good or bad pick isn't just "nothing". There are SO many opinions in this game for how your hero pool should be to climb optimally, or even confusion amongst what heroes do well together vs what counters each other. The game being more casual makes those kinds of hints even more important imo. And we're not just banning comparing the two games cause they're different. That's a really lame argument.
Why is JQ considered a main tank because of knife but Hog is not even though hook is more dangerous? JQ seems just as squishy as Hog.
she can speed amp herself and gracie is just better than hook in multiple ways, also junkerqueens self healing comes from dealing damage where as hog has to stop doing anything to heal so they are not really comparable
Shoutout to @nitroxygen102 for debating himself 😂
Goddamnt spilo this is clearly bait.
youre gonna turn this into a 4 hour video arent you
@@CoachSpilo 👉👈
@@CoachSpilobro can thank Realth for the "initiator" thing
@@魚-c3dmain tank as an initiator has been the standard definition in pro play for at least five years
I really miss 2 tanks from ow1, the 222 format actually made sense for most players understanding of how to play
Whatcha mean bruv? I'm always off tank, that role is a nightmare
Main tank isn't about quick burst of push. Main tank is just the guy who can stay out of cover for long. They are more like stabilizer, anchor that you and enemies can play around.
JQ isn't a main tank. JQ is a dps. Main tanks are Rein, Sigma, Orisa, Ramattra, Winston. Main tank isn't about dealing violent damage, main tank is about dealing predictible steady damage. Remember, enemies also play around main tank, not just friendlies. Dev incompetency really fcked up these concepts and people's perception of it. There are so many abominations and imbalance in the game people don't know what is what anymore.
There’s only 1 tank now…
This video shows again that tanks were always the main characters no matter how many were on ur screen
That balance team in blizzard needs coaching from spilo.
So is ball main tank?
No
Yes. He has been a main tank in multiple comps.
Yes, because he engages and creates space.
"The Hamster is coming for you"
He is a flex tank... He can both enable and initiate... The first of his kind... The fall of ball
Bring back half and remove fortify!
This is how I see it:
1. Most people just want to play the one or few characters they like, whether that's because of their gameplay, aesthetics, lore, whatever.
2. Most people simply do not have the time and effort to put in to properly learn more than that one or few characters.
Therefore, to me, the correct decision is to make all characters "more samey" (I'm using this because I've seen people use "samey" to criticise newer character design). What I actually mean is move away from very niche to more generalist, "works in many situations" type kits, and not only in how they interact with other heroes, but how they interact with the maps.
This has been in the game since the beginning, ALL supports heal, but the way they do it is different and sometimes unique to them, and it's very frustrating that it feels like this concept isn't applied to tanks especially, but instead they double down on their niches and the counterswapping.
Zen is a glass cannon. He has no mobility and no self sustain and very low healing. His ultimate gives him mobility, self sustain, and huge healing. That doesn't make him less of a glass cannon, it just gives him a tool to supplement his weaknesses very infrequently, and it puts the choice of WHEN to use those tools in the player's hands.
Making tanks objectively the strongest player in the team HURTS EVERYBODY. I say "objectively" because open queue right now is 4 tanks and a moira.
It hurts tanks, because the pressure and weight on your shoulders to perform is huge.
It hurts supports, because it's more efficient to healbot the tank than help damage or be aggressive yourself or make creative plays.
It hurts damage, because they literally are ignored by their supports and end up with disproportionately more deaths (aka less PLAYING time) than the other roles.
The problem is in the hero design though. If you bring tank health in, closer to where it was in OW1, they still have all the size, and become the primary target of damage, meaning they just die faster and then fit the dps problem you’re describing.
With only one tank, it’s just hard to improve this problem. Especially since OW players seem to truly hate cc. The one thing I think they could do to make tanks an active threat in 5v5 without them being unkillable titans or taking over the dps role, would be to let them have cc abilities. It’s an active threat that doesn’t mean immediate death.
I’d actually argue that Mei would make a solid tank under this design direction. But again people hate cc, so this will never happen.
@@Kintaku my idea is to make tank and support passives more like the damage passive. For Tanks, dealing damage reduces enemy damage dealt, and for supports, healing an ally reduces the damage they take.
Im sure there's issues I cant possibly think of with that too, but at least it's an "active" passive that you have power to decide when and on who to use.
@@theshard5697 I think there’s a few issues there. The front-of-mind one would just be that you can’t see it happen.
But reducing damage for supports would be complained about as well. I’m not a fan of role passives in general but mainly because they don’t distribute power evenly. This one for example would be incredibly strong on character like Lucio and Brig who are always healing the entire team. Meanwhile characters like Juno or Zen would barely get any value from it.
The tank passive isn’t entirely a bad idea, in that it requires action to get value, but falls under the same uneven distribution problem.
The one other idea I like (but think won’t happen) is Spilo’s idea to just make the tanks smaller. There’s already precedent for this being effective in Junker Queen.
@@Kintaku yea I mean... ideally there wouldnt be any passives and they'd just let characters be characters, but since they keep doubling down on this...
Another thing Id do instead of hitbox changes would be give more tanks access to overhealth, like Rein through firestrike or hog through vape maybe
@@theshard5697 that one’s interesting. Giving tanks normalized health but with access to Venture-style overhealth through abilities could be interesting.
I really just wish they would TRY more things beyond just number tweaks.
i like how this guy explains stuff. Here's a sub
Also bastion should be the next dps to be reworked into the tank category unlike doomfist JQ and zarya he has a tank like size
I call them support tanks since it’s easier for new players to understand
And so that it sounds worse for some tanks when i call them being bad because they play rein like he’s a off tank 😂
Lol off tank is now support
The crap in 6v6 tasted better then the crap in 5v5
oh my role
i was a top 500 zarya one trick in ow1. they ruined her
You actually think she’s ruined? (I started in ow2 and find it hard to imagine not having 2 personals..)
Dude I tried playn tank recently and dammit it's so boring now. Without the offtank role overwatch just feels like a worse paladins in it's current state (to me atleast, tho that is due to a mix of the lack of a second tank and the current balance in the game and dps tanks being more and more present)
@5:16 HALT
I'm a main tank when wife doesn't have dinner ready
Do you think 6v6 is the answer? I didnt play ow1 as much as ow2 (1100 hours and 800 r ow2) but from what i remember the fights were longer and i felt like i didnt have as much impact on a fight than now (i am support) but on the other hand i only started getting better in ow2 (2000 sr now mid diamond) so that might be the reason i feel that way
Edit: The replies made me realise I like ow2 more since I'm a support main and 1 less tank gives me more opportunities to do dmg and not only heal but if I was a dps main id want 2 tanks so I can have some help I can't form an opinion on what id want if I mained tank because I don't play it
@Qaadree (I might have posted this comment twice by mistake) I literally remember u commenting on my tiktok a year ago!! Exactly same pfp and user I just checked BTW I agree with u
In OW1 supports had a lot less agency because they were required to heal a lot more to keep 2 tanks alive and also more mitigation made it less effective to use abilities offensively as well.
@bigfudge2031 Thanks for clearing this up !! I didn't know if I stopped healbotting in ow2 or stopped being forced to healbot, now ik!
@Qaadree Fr !! Do u want to be mutuals on there and here and I can tag u in the vid u commented in (sorry I am asking for alot)
Overwatch 1 had stricter roles and was much more team orientated. You could shit your brain off way more and just play your role right and the more everyone on the team did that the better. I prefer it that way, I hate having to dual sweaty ass hit scan heroes constantly because I liked outplaying people on tank without just mechanics.
I don't think you can make the argument "if thats what *you* prefer" if the game was far more popular and liked in the 6v6 format even with the fact it was easier to get griefed.
Add MT/OT roles or make all roles one SR, take even HALF of the aggression for chat bans into gameplay bans, even seperate the tank role into categories (people used to talk about the "need more defensive heroes" even though it was useless)
Where are the OW2 exciting moments? People used to be hype with ult combos and that just doesn't happen anymore. People crying about individual agency but you literally have one narrow decisionmaking flowchart on every role. Go play starcraft or quake.
I'd rather eat good food and shit food than be perpetually served gruel. There just aren't any exciting moments. I want tanks to die if I shoot them 5 times in the head with Ashe but you cannot have that in 5v5.
It got deleted
There's no such thing as an off tank anymore becuase there's only 1 tank. Man OW2 sucks 💀