Old high German still is so close that I am quite sure I would adapt within matter of weeks if not days. The changes during the last 2000 years have by far not been as significant as the ones the english language went through, that is my impression.
It’s annoying how many “experts” come of out the woodwork to comment patronizingly on videos like this. Of course a modern reading of an old text will be colored by the modern version of that language. The point of this video as I see It is to take a look at the words as they were written and the changes in the forms of orthography - “das Vorlesen” is just a bonus.
Native German speaker with the Modern German Reclam translation at hand: he significantly, as I think, mistranslates the line 'der juncvrouwen tugende zierten anderiu wip' It's not as he says: her virgin-like virtues attracted other women to her but rather: that virgin's virtues would grace other women In the Modern German Reclam: Der Jungfrau edle Sitten, wären eine Zier für jedes Weib = the virgin's noble virtues would be a grace upon every wench He appears to momentarily confuse zieren - to grace (sth), decorate, embellish with ziehen - to pull, attract
Yes. That is a good critique. However, he did a video about Middle English, and because Middle High German is the practically the sister of Middle English and not Modern English, I think the translation is just fine. Remember, translation is a separate skill from speaking a language. I grew up with a mexican boy who couldn't translate and a peruvian boy who could. He's giving a loose translation of what he understands the passage as a whole to be. Wie jemand wer Deutsch wie ein zweite Sprache gelernt wird, kann ich die meisten der Wörter verstehen... ...aber es zu übersetzten? ...und in Moderne Englisch anstatt Deutsch? Vergiss es...
Yes. That is a good critique. However, he did a video about Middle English, and because Middle High German is the practically the sister of Middle English and not Modern English, I think the translation is just fine. Remember, translation is a separate skill from speaking a language. I grew up with a mexican boy who couldn't translate and a peruvian boy who could. He's giving a loose translation of what he understands the passage as a whole to be. Wie jemand wer Deutsch wie ein zweite Sprache gelernt wird, kann ich die meisten der Wörter verstehen... ...aber es zu übersetzten? ...und in Moderne Englisch anstatt Deutsch? Vergiss es...
I'm German as well and I can read and understand the whole text without any linguistic knowledge. As a history student I have courses at the university where we might be given texts in Middle High German with just two or three notes. We students are, rightfully I might add, expected to be able to read it.
It's like a variation of what we still speak here in Black Forest, Southern Bavaria and Switherland! Wow! Well, not in the cities. It's sad how germany treats it's dialects (and connections to the linguistic past). There are fewer native allemannic-speakers each year.
im sorry, i know these are older comments, but im honestly a bit offended because everyone seems to keep forgetting western austria (vorarlberg) and liechtenstein lmao
Give the reader your respect! He's not a native speaker. And even Germans cannot be sure about the pronounciation as there are no recording from the Middle Ages.
Wandelbart actually aha maybe not recording but all over Germany and especially in the south I’d suggest there are traces of old to middle german everywhere. Gsait is everywhere for gesagt. Hûs by the allemanisch, Hôus by the Schwaben. I’ve heard where some actually almost don’t even pronounce the typical -ch- but it’s like a thick sounding h sound like instead of machen, it sounds like ma”hen” like I’ve seen it spelled a few times in the poem above. Sin is still present in Switzerland and in Bodensee allemanisch, dui is the dialectal spelling of die in the south for some. In other words with a lot of these pronunciations, some can be really sure of the accurate pronunciation. Even that wîp is today “v-eye-b” but some still say “veeb.” Then and today in Schwäbisch, it means kind of like a girl I think who was able to be married, but nowadays in standard german it’s kinda like a hussy. There was someone who spoke a variety of allemanisch who read a middle german poem in class and understood pretty much all of it because it’s how they spoke in his community.
@@dilbaum Old comment, but anyway. Just because you might live im Ländle, that doesn't really mean that you've heard all of the vielfältige Formen von der Dialekt. Mein Freund vom Kreis Tuttlingen dachte ich wäre durchgedreht wenn ich ihm "saua" sagte. Es gibt schon mittel-, ost-, zentral-, west-, nord-, Bodensee-, und andere Formen der Dialekt, die nur verbindet mit Gemeinden und Flecken sind.
This is absolutely fasinating! I've been learning German for three years, and I can understand some words that are here. I'm also a native English speaker and knew about there beign a link between Old English and German, but this was a lot more than I expected. Thankyou for posting these, it's really interesting!
It is correctly stated that this middle high german text is closely related to the swiss alamannic dialects that are spoken in the german part of Switzerland.
Very nice! One little thing to mention: every syllable/vowel is pronounced shortly! Long pronounced syllables and vowels have their circonflex:) for example: hûs (house). Diphtonges also are long pronounced like "muote"...:)
The text you chose to read from is perhaps the greatest of any text of the entire medieval period. I don't read Middle High German, but I have read the entire Nibelungenlied in multiple translations, and I own a complete hardcover text of the Nibelungenlied in the original Middle High German, and I can pronounce Middle High German. One of the best pieces of literature I've ever read.
Something to point out: So as I listened to your recitation it sounded increasingly like there was a tune in there that wanted to come out and be sung (also add that "Nibelungenlied" means "Song of the Niebelungs") Now here's where it gets interesting: the meter is identical to "Brave Sir Robin" of Monty Python fame ;)
Thank you very much! I did know that the Nibelungenlied was a poem respectively a song (= Lied). But your rhythmic and melodic recitation was an eye-opener, well I should rather say ear-opener! :)
There are two mistakes here: first, he actually got a lot of the metric wrong because he read short vowles as long ones and stuff... second, the Nibelungenlied is not a song, its a "heldenepik" (hero-epic?) more specific a part of the "aventürehafte Heldenepik". Still, these have very different critiria but usually can be sung or are in a form of rhyme that is close to it. But still: not a Song, nor Minnesanc or anything close to it. And in that regard: dont think of a song when you hear "lied" in mhd texts. A LOT of them are called "lied" but actually dont count in the refering genre of songs (or Minnesanc etc.). Its just that a majority of them were in rhymes and they were recited, not read quietly.
@@ShadowWolf1307 yes it is a song... Singing was the way the bards of that time spread stories and kept legends alive. sadly the melody was not passed down. But some musicians who work with midival music are trying to reinterpretate it.
@@blackforest_fairy excuse me but i have to disagree here on a lot of points.... (no mean to offend, just to correct and inform you/anyone coming along and reading this - just as you did 3 years after i posted xD) 1) I am a native german speaker, studied german literature in university. When i commented my original statement i was ACTUALLY going through old german literature courses and had to learn old and middle german in order to myself understand and read (in old fashion aka reading out loud as it would have been back then) a lot of these texts. So i DO know what it should sound like from what has be reconstructed. He did a good job, but i as pointing out what he still kinda missed - as a thing to keep in mind. Not to devalue the video. 2) i actually even attended a whole one semester lecture just about the nibelungenlied. (Wich i enjoyed actually, so even tho i do not remember all of it now, i do still stand by my points from 3 years ago). It IS a Heldenepos, wich is itself a genre. It is not a song. period. 3) the nibelungenlied was written around the early 1200 from what we can reconstruct but the 3 surviving scripts are from around the middle/end of the century. Their froms do suggest a vast verbal tradition but i have jet to see clues of it been played as a song. Like a real song, not at what i already debunked in my og comment. So thats all i can give you in that regard. 4) what we do know though is that literary studies agree that there is just one author of it, and there are clues that it probably (as nearly all literature back then bc paper and ink were crazy expensive) were commissioned work. It is commonly noted that the audience of this piece was (at least originally) clerics, nobles and rich merchants (wich is also just typical back then). But as you can guess and see, it must have been "catchy enough" to have spread to the masses and become oral tradition - wich is actually why it became a national treasure of germany and siegfried is to this day the most prominent (legendary) national heros of germany. 4) okay, so i corrected all the facts but you mentioned bards. I dont know how well versed you are in how the medival age (specifically in germany) looked like, but since your comment sounds really romanticised i'll just assume (sorry if i'm wrong!) you dont know that bards where a lot more of a political tool than what you described ... Ofc SOME of them would maybe played music to these verses, there probably would be bards that made noises to excellerate things and stuff, BUT a lot of the sensation back then came directly from the text itself. You simply dont need music bc the middle ages at that time where operating under the art of "ekphrasis" (i honestly dont know how to translate that term though and am not gonna try). Its basically "you write the text in a way people see use their imagination enough to FEEL it beeing true". Wich the likes of cinema you might not understand this but maybe think of the last time you read a book you got so engrossed in, when you looked up you were kinda confussed it wasnt real. Like a "oh, right, this is real life! I was just reading - but it felt like i was there with them!" --- this my friend (if i my call you so) is what they would have called ekphrasis. But they would have people read out stuff bc most of the people couldnt read.... so ....yea. TL;DR: - Still not a song. - Thuss no music chords or sheets that were lost. - Medival People had way more imagination as we did, maybe? last but not least: its great that people re-discover this piece, i'm happy about it! But as i said theres no music sheets they can just rediscover - but we do precieve media differently than other ages of men did. So why not reframe what WE (now) see in these texts and brand it how we want to? Thats not a bad thing in my eyes, as long as we do it conciously :)
@ProfASAr Dear Professor Arguelles, I have a question: How should I pronounce this " î "? I've always pronounced it as the modern German diphthong "ei", which makes it easier to understand words such as sîn (sein), or lîp (Leib), or wîp (Weib). Thank you very much
Beeing from southern Germany and speaking 2 dialects which are quite close to the middle high German I find your pronunciation really funny it sounds like you are making a sketch out of it.
@one1armedscissor In modern English the subject has to be before the verb and the objects because otherwise you would change the meaning of the sentence. That is so because English lost its inflections during the middle ages. But German is still an inflecting language. You can distinguish the subject and object functions by the articles and/or the endings of the nouns, consequently they can change their place. By the way, the first sentence of the poem is a passive construction.
Quick questing: Why does the object come before the subject in a lot of sentences? "Uns ist in alten maeren" "ir muoten küene recken," etc. etc... Is it strictly for rhyming purposes? Great videos. I just wish you went into detail more about the grammar in your videos, but good stuff.
fantastic, fantastic, fantastic! I am interesting in learning Mittelhochdeutsch and Niederhochdeutsch, and this is great help! And all the movies are amazing, especially early githic languages. Thank you very much!
I get a rush when I see "overlap" from the German that I know. Without ever having seen Middle High German before, I could make out a bit of that text. The same goes for modern Dutch.
As german i do understand roughly 90% of the stuff tough it takes some effort. I do know quite some dialects so its not so hard as some dialects preserved some of those older forms like "geseit" But i also did understand 80% of old high german - i am learning old norse and old german is seemingly closer to old norse than to modern german
hey Berthold v. Regensburg is easier for learning MHG! I definitely would've preferred a linguistic course focusing on MHG vernacular than the literary one but it was the only course offered!
@ProfASAr In addition to Jotamrocksdashit's points, the "iu" has to be pronounced like the modern german "ü" / "ue". I thought about starting a channel for reading old- and middle-high-german Literature, too. So I guess I'll start with parts of the Nibelungenlied and post it as a Videoresponse. Thank you very much for this Video! Best regards, Malte Lange
As a swiss we have it easiest to pronounce it right, and that's why it's still so difficult even for Germans to pronounce swiss german correctly. Btw. Walther von der Vogelweide is my favourite poet of that period.
Hopefully you've not answered this already, but shouldn't the W's be pronounced as they are in English? Just wondering. Sometimes in Neumittelalterlicher music I have, they seem to switch back and forth, but usually stick with the (forgive my term here) Old Germanic W, just like in Modern English and Gothic, and UU in Old German.
I guess it depends where you're from. I'm Swabian, and I have a good idea of what's going on. The girlfriend of a friend of mine once took a course on MHG (they're both from Westphalia) and me and my friend once looked at a bunch of these texts just for fun. He had much more problems understanding than I did.
@@ProfASAr No problem, only 12 years later 😎 I’ve just rewatched the video. As it happens, I have recently and randomly listened to one of the two audio books you showed at the end, as part of my Audible subscription. You were right, it’s really good. I have the Parzival audiobook but also the commented version of the Nibelungenlied by Peter Wapnewski. I might need to check out Tristan & Isolde as well.
let me correct speech of the following passage: "der juncfrouwen tugende zierten anderiu wîp" -> you should more proper pronounce the diphtonge in "_fr->o->u_wen"; and also that you missed the "ü" in "ander_iu".... as you correctly pronounced "diu" as "dü" (kind of), you also will pronounce "ander->ü" as you read. BTW great intend to put this whole thing up; im german and study middlehighgerman here, but for the lack of german tapes i'm instead getting inspired from the english; -> thumbs :-)
I understand it quite well actually, not as good as English of course ;) Perhaps it's because I am swiss german and used to a lot of different dialects.
ganz kann er seine englische seite nicht ausschalten, aber schon sau gut, also ich weiss nicht ob ich so einen text selber hätte lesen können. mein respekt!
believe it or not: a nowadays german could hear this and even grab the meaning of it. maybe not all and maybe not each word, but even the core of it.btw, some of your pronuciations did not sound right for me (as a german). but, maybe i am not right - who knows...
Dear Professor Arguelles, are you still interested in a video-reading of this text? I am German and studied this stage of german and could send you one. Regards, Nicholas Gudrich, M.A.
Yes the W has to be pronounced in frouwen. As a native german speaker I have to say, that the introduction is quite good, also the reading of the text lacks most of the MHG-characteristics of pronounciation. (He puts "umlaute" where none of them are and he pronounces nearly every MHG Diphthong as a Monophthong (like in Modern German). Here at Uni Würzburg they would have sent us to the torture rag for doing this - okay: just kidding ;)
this is not true what you say hessejamez. im german too and i understand almost everything. when dutch people begin to speak i understand almost nothing.
"ei" hat man im Mittelhochdeutschen nicht "ai" gesprochen, sondern so wie's dasteht und "swester" hat man auch gesagt, wie man's schreibt. Ansonsten sehr schön :)
@@ProfASAr It's really too bad that English stopped using thorn and edh. But the truth is, we are lucky to have any English at all. When new words are needed in English, they should look to Anglo-Saxon. Instead, they look to French and Latin. English is still under the Norman boot!😠
I am a native German speaker. I do not understand a word.O.K. "uns" und "Mannen" .Das hab ich verstanden."Weinen" und "Klagen " auch noch.But i better understand you´re english than this.
It is similar to rhine franconian, the variety spoken in lorrain france(Platt Lorraine or Frankisch-the language of the ancient Franks in France, after some transformations of course), which belongs to the modern West Central German dalects. because it has not the bavarian diphthongation vowel process- î to ei)
+edi as a high-alemannic (swiss german) speaker I can see quite a lot of similarities. As +gunananda already stated, words like muoter and bluot is pronounced exactly the same way modern high-alemannic and other upper-german speakers still pronounce it today. In some aspects I'd say it's closer to swiss-german than bavarian, for example "ándériu wîp" --> high-alemannic: anderi Wiiber, bavarian: andere Weiba.
edi His pronunciation very bad, that could be the reason. He pronounces it, as if it would be modern Standard German, but the pronunciation rules are diffrent (He makes almost evry mistake you could possibly do, especially for the vocals.) Also the middle high german ch an h (if it's After a vocal like in niht and wuohs) are pronounced like the swiss ch, the r is rolled, so actually it sounded more like bavarian or allemanic than in this example.
No it's not. You're making up a folk etymology here. In modern German "lobebaeren" would be "lobbaren". This word doesn't exist anymore, we would now say "ruhmreich".
DUUUUDE, again, mr. professor, teacher, whatever,.. you - sound - so - fucking - stressed. chill. know whats funny. i dont have to study german because i am german and i understood everything you read in middle high german. i could get the readers intentions. the same with middle english. too bad it isn't the same way in reverse. *german rules*
Not sure how you're guiding your pronunciation here. You pronounce a lot of short vowels as if they were long. You are also not pronouncing the W as it actually was, just like the English W. And S isn't voiced in the same way as Modern German. You also seem to change the R a lot: it's just trilled. You should also be careful with the diphthongs: they're not like Modern High German.
Also, the θ (th) kind of sound probably existed in the letter ȥ which is from the Germanic t. Hence bite, beißen (Modern German), bîȥen (Middle High German).
+Brian McFadden Yes, regarding /w/ and /s/. Also, /ei/ should be the diphthong [ei] and not the modern [ai]. /ie/ should be a diphthong, and not modern long [i]. However, /iu/ should not be a diphthong, but was the convention for spelling the long high front rounded (modern long /u/-umlaut).
+tigger8252 Also, /sk/ had already become /sh/, explaining the orthographic use of "sch,", but /sp/ and /st/ were still pronounced with [s], as well as /sw/ in "swester." These changes were more recent, and therefore not reflected in the orthography.
If your main Language is German you can actually understand and read this.
But Old High German is a whole different story....
Old high German still is so close that I am quite sure I would adapt within matter of weeks if not days. The changes during the last 2000 years have by far not been as significant as the ones the english language went through, that is my impression.
Thanks for commenting.
@@reverendbecker I as a german native must say that Old High German is quite understandable.
My main language is English and I understand this.
I can definitely see the connection to the alemannic Dialects and i can understand 95% of the words
Thanks for commenting.
It’s annoying how many “experts” come of out the woodwork to comment patronizingly on videos like this. Of course a modern reading of an old text will be colored by the modern version of that language. The point of this video as I see It is to take a look at the words as they were written and the changes in the forms of orthography - “das Vorlesen” is just a bonus.
Thanks for commenting.
It's amazing how much one can understand as a Speaker of New High German.
Thanks for commenting.
wow, an eye opening video. it's been 20 years since the last i spoke this dear language. i love to study old language
Thanks for commenting.
Native German speaker with the Modern German Reclam translation at hand:
he significantly, as I think, mistranslates the line
'der juncvrouwen tugende zierten anderiu wip'
It's not as he says:
her virgin-like virtues attracted other women to her
but rather:
that virgin's virtues would grace other women
In the Modern German Reclam:
Der Jungfrau edle Sitten, wären eine Zier für jedes Weib
= the virgin's noble virtues would be a grace upon every wench
He appears to momentarily confuse
zieren - to grace (sth), decorate, embellish
with
ziehen - to pull, attract
Yes. That is a good critique. However, he did a video about Middle English, and because Middle High German is the practically the sister of Middle English and not Modern English, I think the translation is just fine.
Remember, translation is a separate skill from speaking a language. I grew up with a mexican boy who couldn't translate and a peruvian boy who could.
He's giving a loose translation of what he understands the passage as a whole to be.
Wie jemand wer Deutsch wie ein zweite Sprache gelernt wird, kann ich die meisten der Wörter verstehen...
...aber es zu übersetzten?
...und in Moderne Englisch anstatt Deutsch?
Vergiss es...
Yes. That is a good critique. However, he did a video about Middle English, and because Middle High German is the practically the sister of Middle English and not Modern English, I think the translation is just fine.
Remember, translation is a separate skill from speaking a language. I grew up with a mexican boy who couldn't translate and a peruvian boy who could.
He's giving a loose translation of what he understands the passage as a whole to be.
Wie jemand wer Deutsch wie ein zweite Sprache gelernt wird, kann ich die meisten der Wörter verstehen...
...aber es zu übersetzten?
...und in Moderne Englisch anstatt Deutsch?
Vergiss es...
Thanks for commenting.
I'm German as well and I can read and understand the whole text without any linguistic knowledge.
As a history student I have courses at the university where we might be given texts in Middle High German with just two or three notes. We students are, rightfully I might add, expected to be able to read it.
Thanks for commenting.
It's like a variation of what we still speak here in Black Forest, Southern Bavaria and Switherland! Wow!
Well, not in the cities. It's sad how germany treats it's dialects (and connections to the linguistic past). There are fewer native allemannic-speakers each year.
Zum Glück werden die alemannischen Mundarten immer noch in der Schweiz gesprochen.
@@smhez4766 ja aber nur die die in der Schweiz heimisch sind. Die badischen und schwäbischen Variationen werden seltener.
im sorry, i know these are older comments, but im honestly a bit offended because everyone seems to keep forgetting western austria (vorarlberg) and liechtenstein lmao
@@リナ-c4h oh i never meant to... especially Vorarlberg got some of the most beautiful dialects ever, in my opinion.
Thanks for commenting.
Give the reader your respect! He's not a native speaker. And even Germans cannot be sure about the pronounciation as there are no recording from the Middle Ages.
Wandelbart actually aha maybe not recording but all over Germany and especially in the south I’d suggest there are traces of old to middle german everywhere. Gsait is everywhere for gesagt. Hûs by the allemanisch, Hôus by the Schwaben. I’ve heard where some actually almost don’t even pronounce the typical -ch- but it’s like a thick sounding h sound like instead of machen, it sounds like ma”hen” like I’ve seen it spelled a few times in the poem above. Sin is still present in Switzerland and in Bodensee allemanisch, dui is the dialectal spelling of die in the south for some. In other words with a lot of these pronunciations, some can be really sure of the accurate pronunciation. Even that wîp is today “v-eye-b” but some still say “veeb.” Then and today in Schwäbisch, it means kind of like a girl I think who was able to be married, but nowadays in standard german it’s kinda like a hussy. There was someone who spoke a variety of allemanisch who read a middle german poem in class and understood pretty much all of it because it’s how they spoke in his community.
@@Ian-dn6ld I live in Swabia and I've never ever heard anyone say Hôus before
@@dilbaum Old comment, but anyway. Just because you might live im Ländle, that doesn't really mean that you've heard all of the vielfältige Formen von der Dialekt. Mein Freund vom Kreis Tuttlingen dachte ich wäre durchgedreht wenn ich ihm "saua" sagte. Es gibt schon mittel-, ost-, zentral-, west-, nord-, Bodensee-, und andere Formen der Dialekt, die nur verbindet mit Gemeinden und Flecken sind.
Thanks for commenting.
Beautiful language
Thank you.
This is absolutely fasinating! I've been learning German for three years, and I can understand some words that are here. I'm also a native English speaker and knew about there beign a link between Old English and German, but this was a lot more than I expected. Thankyou for posting these, it's really interesting!
Thanks for commenting.
It is correctly stated that this middle high german text is closely related to the swiss alamannic dialects that are spoken in the german part of Switzerland.
Thanks for commenting.
Very nice! One little thing to mention: every syllable/vowel is pronounced shortly! Long pronounced syllables and vowels have their circonflex:) for example: hûs (house). Diphtonges also are long pronounced like "muote"...:)
Thanks for commenting.
The text you chose to read from is perhaps the greatest of any text of the entire medieval period. I don't read Middle High German, but I have read the entire Nibelungenlied in multiple translations, and I own a complete hardcover text of the Nibelungenlied in the original Middle High German, and I can pronounce Middle High German. One of the best pieces of literature I've ever read.
What's it about? My modern German is okay, but do you think maybe with a side-by-side translation I could get through the medieval German?
Thanks for commenting.
Something to point out:
So as I listened to your recitation it sounded increasingly like there was a tune in there that wanted to come out and be sung (also add that "Nibelungenlied" means "Song of the Niebelungs")
Now here's where it gets interesting: the meter is identical to "Brave Sir Robin" of Monty Python fame ;)
Interesting observation!
Thank you very much!
I did know that the Nibelungenlied was a poem respectively a song (= Lied). But your rhythmic and melodic recitation was an eye-opener, well I should rather say ear-opener! :)
There are two mistakes here:
first, he actually got a lot of the metric wrong because he read short vowles as long ones and stuff...
second, the Nibelungenlied is not a song,
its a "heldenepik" (hero-epic?) more specific a part of the "aventürehafte Heldenepik". Still, these have very different critiria but usually can be sung or are in a form of rhyme that is close to it. But still: not a Song, nor Minnesanc or anything close to it.
And in that regard: dont think of a song when you hear "lied" in mhd texts. A LOT of them are called "lied" but actually dont count in the refering genre of songs (or Minnesanc etc.). Its just that a majority of them were in rhymes and they were recited, not read quietly.
@@ShadowWolf1307 yes it is a song... Singing was the way the bards of that time spread stories and kept legends alive. sadly the melody was not passed down. But some musicians who work with midival music are trying to reinterpretate it.
@@blackforest_fairy excuse me but i have to disagree here on a lot of points.... (no mean to offend, just to correct and inform you/anyone coming along and reading this - just as you did 3 years after i posted xD)
1) I am a native german speaker, studied german literature in university. When i commented my original statement i was ACTUALLY going through old german literature courses and had to learn old and middle german in order to myself understand and read (in old fashion aka reading out loud as it would have been back then) a lot of these texts.
So i DO know what it should sound like from what has be reconstructed. He did a good job, but i as pointing out what he still kinda missed - as a thing to keep in mind. Not to devalue the video.
2) i actually even attended a whole one semester lecture just about the nibelungenlied. (Wich i enjoyed actually, so even tho i do not remember all of it now, i do still stand by my points from 3 years ago). It IS a Heldenepos, wich is itself a genre. It is not a song. period.
3) the nibelungenlied was written around the early 1200 from what we can reconstruct but the 3 surviving scripts are from around the middle/end of the century. Their froms do suggest a vast verbal tradition but i have jet to see clues of it been played as a song. Like a real song, not at what i already debunked in my og comment.
So thats all i can give you in that regard.
4) what we do know though is that literary studies agree that there is just one author of it, and there are clues that it probably (as nearly all literature back then bc paper and ink were crazy expensive) were commissioned work. It is commonly noted that the audience of this piece was (at least originally) clerics, nobles and rich merchants (wich is also just typical back then).
But as you can guess and see, it must have been "catchy enough" to have spread to the masses and become oral tradition - wich is actually why it became a national treasure of germany and siegfried is to this day the most prominent (legendary) national heros of germany.
4) okay, so i corrected all the facts but you mentioned bards. I dont know how well versed you are in how the medival age (specifically in germany) looked like,
but since your comment sounds really romanticised i'll just assume (sorry if i'm wrong!) you dont know that bards where a lot more of a political tool than what you described ...
Ofc SOME of them would maybe played music to these verses, there probably would be bards that made noises to excellerate things and stuff, BUT a lot of the sensation back then came directly from the text itself.
You simply dont need music bc the middle ages at that time where operating under the art of "ekphrasis" (i honestly dont know how to translate that term though and am not gonna try). Its basically "you write the text in a way people see use their imagination enough to FEEL it beeing true".
Wich the likes of cinema you might not understand this but maybe think of the last time you read a book you got so engrossed in, when you looked up you were kinda confussed it wasnt real. Like a "oh, right, this is real life! I was just reading - but it felt like i was there with them!" --- this my friend (if i my call you so) is what they would have called ekphrasis. But they would have people read out stuff bc most of the people couldnt read.... so ....yea.
TL;DR:
- Still not a song.
- Thuss no music chords or sheets that were lost.
- Medival People had way more imagination as we did, maybe?
last but not least:
its great that people re-discover this piece, i'm happy about it! But as i said theres no music sheets they can just rediscover - but we do precieve media differently than other ages of men did. So why not reframe what WE (now) see in these texts and brand it how we want to? Thats not a bad thing in my eyes, as long as we do it conciously :)
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@ProfASAr
Dear Professor Arguelles,
I have a question: How should I pronounce this " î "? I've always pronounced it as the modern German diphthong "ei", which makes it easier to understand words such as sîn (sein), or lîp (Leib), or wîp (Weib).
Thank you very much
The German i is usually pronunced like the i first in information, interessting, internet...
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Beeing from southern Germany and speaking 2 dialects which are quite close to the middle high German I find your pronunciation really funny it sounds like you are making a sketch out of it.
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@one1armedscissor In modern English the subject has to be before the verb and the objects because otherwise you would change the meaning of the sentence. That is so because English lost its inflections during the middle ages. But German is still an inflecting language. You can distinguish the subject and object functions by the articles and/or the endings of the nouns, consequently they can change their place. By the way, the first sentence of the poem is a passive construction.
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I studied for a year in Austria and I found I can understand a bit of this!
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I love your videos and I love your delivery!👍
Thank you so much!
Mit welcher Begeisterung du das liest. Wunderbar :)
Eine Wohltat für die Ohren, würde gerne Gedichte aus dieser Zeit von dir vorgetragen hören.
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Very well done, you got the vowel qualities right.
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Great video - thanks for posting it! Just remember, we're here to support you as much as you're supporting us. Don't be so nervous; breathe!!! ;-)
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Quick questing:
Why does the object come before the subject in a lot of sentences?
"Uns ist in alten maeren"
"ir muoten küene recken," etc. etc...
Is it strictly for rhyming purposes?
Great videos. I just wish you went into detail more about the grammar in your videos, but good stuff.
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Ja,
Recken (Fighter, Warrior, Knight)and Degen ("Sword", Warrior, Knight) are unsed synonymously in the Nibelungenlied
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fantastic, fantastic, fantastic!
I am interesting in learning Mittelhochdeutsch and Niederhochdeutsch, and this is great help! And all the movies are amazing, especially early githic languages. Thank you very much!
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I get a rush when I see "overlap" from the German that I know. Without ever having seen Middle High German before, I could make out a bit of that text. The same goes for modern Dutch.
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As german i do understand roughly 90% of the stuff tough it takes some effort. I do know quite some dialects so its not so hard as some dialects preserved some of those older forms like "geseit" But i also did understand 80% of old high german - i am learning old norse and old german is seemingly closer to old norse than to modern german
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hey Berthold v. Regensburg is easier for learning MHG!
I definitely would've preferred a linguistic course focusing on MHG vernacular than the literary one but it was the only course offered!
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@ProfASAr
In addition to Jotamrocksdashit's points, the "iu" has to be pronounced like the modern german "ü" / "ue".
I thought about starting a channel for reading old- and middle-high-german Literature, too. So I guess I'll start with parts of the Nibelungenlied and post it as a Videoresponse.
Thank you very much for this Video!
Best regards,
Malte Lange
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nice read. you hear a little bit that the reader is not a native german but nice.
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As a swiss we have it easiest to pronounce it right, and that's why it's still so difficult even for Germans to pronounce swiss german correctly. Btw. Walther von der Vogelweide is my favourite poet of that period.
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This guy is awesome... language is so interesting to me
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Another great video..
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@ProfASAr I have made the recording. You can find it on my channel (ferladdie) under "Nibelungenlied"
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basically i don't really like poetry to start off learning a new Germanic language.
Why don't they ever start off with Berthold v Regensburg?
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Hopefully you've not answered this already, but shouldn't the W's be pronounced as they are in English? Just wondering. Sometimes in Neumittelalterlicher music I have, they seem to switch back and forth, but usually stick with the (forgive my term here) Old Germanic W, just like in Modern English and Gothic, and UU in Old German.
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...the meaning of "Recken" is Ritter (Knights).
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I guess it depends where you're from. I'm Swabian, and I have a good idea of what's going on.
The girlfriend of a friend of mine once took a course on MHG (they're both from Westphalia) and me and my friend once looked at a bunch of these texts just for fun. He had much more problems understanding than I did.
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@@ProfASAr No problem, only 12 years later 😎
I’ve just rewatched the video. As it happens, I have recently and randomly listened to one of the two audio books you showed at the end, as part of my Audible subscription. You were right, it’s really good. I have the Parzival audiobook but also the commented version of the Nibelungenlied by Peter Wapnewski. I might need to check out Tristan & Isolde as well.
Great work.
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In Middle High German, they used the word "greinen" for "crying" too. Could it be, that the words are... uhm... miteinander verwandt? ^^
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let me correct speech of the following passage: "der juncfrouwen tugende zierten anderiu wîp" -> you should more proper pronounce the diphtonge in "_fr->o->u_wen"; and also that you missed the "ü" in "ander_iu".... as you correctly pronounced "diu" as "dü" (kind of), you also will pronounce "ander->ü" as you read.
BTW great intend to put this whole thing up; im german and study middlehighgerman here, but for the lack of german tapes i'm instead getting inspired from the english; -> thumbs :-)
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I understand it quite well actually, not as good as English of course ;) Perhaps it's because I am swiss german and used to a lot of different dialects.
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ganz kann er seine englische seite nicht ausschalten, aber schon sau gut, also ich weiss nicht ob ich so einen text selber hätte lesen können.
mein respekt!
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@ProfASAr sorry, it's under "nibelungen". I tried to put the link here but it didn't work.
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believe it or not: a nowadays german could hear this and even grab the meaning of it. maybe not all and maybe not each word, but even the core of it.btw, some of your pronuciations did not sound right for me (as a german). but, maybe i am not right - who knows...
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Dear Professor Arguelles,
are you still interested in a video-reading of this text? I am German and studied this stage of german and could send you one.
Regards,
Nicholas Gudrich, M.A.
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The only thing i can imgaine is that it similar to "lorbeeren" which means "laurels"
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1. wart = werden (wurde)
duden.de /rechtschreibung /ward
2. wart
duden.de /rechtschreibung /wart
wart(e) = wait / ward = has been
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Of course you can, its a germanic language :), I am a norwegian and can read frettabladid and understand 50% of it ^^
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Ich verstand nichts der Althochdeutschen Sprache, aber verstehe ich ein wenig von dieser Sprache! Gerrade lerne ich modern Hochdeutsch :o)
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Aussprache ist ja katastrophal!
Das mittelhochdeutsche "iu" wird als "ü" ausgesprochen (zum Beispiel).
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sehr interessant hört sich fast so an wie deutsch
Das ist das richtige Deutsch:)
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Yes the W has to be pronounced in frouwen.
As a native german speaker I have to say, that the introduction is quite good, also the reading of the text lacks most of the MHG-characteristics of pronounciation. (He puts "umlaute" where none of them are and he pronounces nearly every MHG Diphthong as a Monophthong (like in Modern German). Here at Uni Würzburg they would have sent us to the torture rag for doing this - okay: just kidding ;)
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@nublered
"ward" is still used in modern german and means "was"
ward mean wurde
Exactly. "Ward" means "became". www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/ward
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this is not true what you say hessejamez. im german too and i understand almost everything. when dutch people begin to speak i understand almost nothing.
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"ei" hat man im Mittelhochdeutschen nicht "ai" gesprochen, sondern so wie's dasteht und "swester" hat man auch gesagt, wie man's schreibt.
Ansonsten sehr schön :)
Jup in Bayern ist des aa noch sehr verbreitet halt des mit dem ei um ai zu hören hat Mann äu ^^
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a "Recke" is a tall, strong, proud man, so he can say "man"... it's not 100% correct, but okay... A "Recke" can be a warrior...
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"Just write" is definitely THORN.
T + H is off track!
???
@@ProfASAr
It's really too bad that English stopped using thorn and edh.
But the truth is, we are lucky to have any English at all. When new words are needed in English, they should look to Anglo-Saxon. Instead, they look to French and Latin. English is still under the Norman boot!😠
Die kurzen Vokale müssen wesentlich kürzer betont gelesen werden
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I am a native German speaker. I do not understand a word.O.K. "uns" und "Mannen" .Das hab ich verstanden."Weinen" und "Klagen " auch noch.But i better understand you´re english than this.
Man muss Schweizerdeutsch sprechen, dann ist es ganz einfach zu verstehen.
And this is coming from a native English speaker in America.
Als Bayer is designed ziemlich einfach xD
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"ehrerbietungswürdig" fits better...
"ruhmreich" is "glorious"
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yes it is...but if you have a little bit fantasy...you understand many words...so do i ;)
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Dat wier gaud läsen west! Ik glöw de Prosodie was nich exakt naug inne Forlage.
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Alles hat mit Allem.zu tun.
Richtig!
that´s so hard.
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The different dialects of German are very hard to understand!
The northern dialects are closer to English and might be easier to understand than Swiss or Bavarian.
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@@ProfASAr No problem!
4:28
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this is what Yiddish is based on
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sehr interessant wie die Deutschen damals sprachen :)
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6:36 wip is Wife ( in old German: Weib ... my Wife ... mein Weib ).
Right!
I'll need a teacher.
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It soounds nice, but reminds me of northgerman/plattdeutsch far more than bavarian or even swiss (with all its ch, chr sounds).
It is similar to rhine franconian, the variety spoken in lorrain france(Platt Lorraine or Frankisch-the language of the ancient Franks in France, after some transformations of course), which belongs to the modern West Central German dalects. because it has not the bavarian diphthongation vowel process- î to ei)
+edi as a high-alemannic (swiss german) speaker I can see quite a lot of similarities. As +gunananda already stated, words like muoter and bluot is pronounced exactly the same way modern high-alemannic and other upper-german speakers still pronounce it today. In some aspects I'd say it's closer to swiss-german than bavarian, for example "ándériu wîp" --> high-alemannic: anderi Wiiber, bavarian: andere Weiba.
edi His pronunciation very bad, that could be the reason. He pronounces it, as if it would be modern Standard German, but the pronunciation rules are diffrent (He makes almost evry mistake you could possibly do, especially for the vocals.) Also the middle high german ch an h (if it's After a vocal like in niht and wuohs) are pronounced like the swiss ch, the r is rolled, so actually it sounded more like bavarian or allemanic than in this example.
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@@ProfASAr I didn't expect you to comment 7 years later.
It's very far from modern German or any dialect - I'am German and understand only a few words., but no context.
Even Dutch comes easier to me!
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This is authentic modern High German (kind of), but not Middle High German.
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der text ist leicht fehlerhaft
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Bro, MHG is NOT a dialect!
???
@@ProfASAr You didn't know this? Lol
Ich verstehe das meiste aber nicht alles^^
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As far as I know you do not pronounce the "ei" like an "I" (in english), its like its written... first an "e", than an "i"...
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No it's not. You're making up a folk etymology here. In modern German "lobebaeren" would be "lobbaren". This word doesn't exist anymore, we would now say "ruhmreich".
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Da kriegt man ja Angst :S
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its a poem lol
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DUUUUDE, again, mr. professor, teacher, whatever,.. you - sound - so - fucking - stressed. chill.
know whats funny. i dont have to study german because i am german and i understood everything you read in middle high german. i could get the readers intentions. the same with middle english. too bad it isn't the same way in reverse. *german rules*
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Aye, bei den meisten Amerikanern klingt ja Englisch schon schmerzhaft ;)
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Not sure how you're guiding your pronunciation here. You pronounce a lot of short vowels as if they were long. You are also not pronouncing the W as it actually was, just like the English W. And S isn't voiced in the same way as Modern German. You also seem to change the R a lot: it's just trilled. You should also be careful with the diphthongs: they're not like Modern High German.
Also, the θ (th) kind of sound probably existed in the letter ȥ which is from the Germanic t. Hence bite, beißen (Modern German), bîȥen (Middle High German).
+Brian McFadden Yes, regarding /w/ and /s/.
Also, /ei/ should be the diphthong [ei] and not the modern [ai]. /ie/ should be a diphthong, and not modern long [i]. However, /iu/ should not be a diphthong, but was the convention for spelling the long high front rounded (modern long /u/-umlaut).
+tigger8252 Also, /sk/ had already become /sh/, explaining the orthographic use of "sch,", but /sp/ and /st/ were still pronounced with [s], as well as /sw/ in "swester." These changes were more recent, and therefore not reflected in the orthography.
Exactly, these are facts I tried to incorporate in my reconstruction which you can find on my channel.
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So english is a german language?
Germanic.
you're reading it wrong in so many ways.
Do you have a sample of you reading it right?
haha owned
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Bad erroneous pronunciation!
Do it better.
Thank you!