IS ALL GOTH VALID? A *not so* Brief History of Goth Fashion
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- After a brief break to recover from halloween, we are back again with another fashion subculture episode. Although stores are putting up their holiday displays, in my house, spooky season never ends! Join me on a deep dive of trad goth, romantic goth, whimsigoth, & everything in between.
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gothumentary Sex. Death, & Eyeliner.
Citation: Nally, Claire (2018) Goth Beauty, Style and Sexuality: Neo-Traditional Femininity in Twenty-First Century Subcultural Magazines. Gothic Studies, 20 (1-2). pp. 1-28. ISSN 1362- 7937
Ooooo this is my kind of video
such a good point! My favourite thing about fashion, music and art in general is how eternally self referential it is, every time you dig into history, there is more and more treasure to find :)
@@bymayaginzburg Absolutely haha nothing exists in a vacuum
TIL Bubblegoth existed ❤
This is so true. It’s much older style than 70’s-80’s trend.
To add to the discussion of gender, as ive heard in many interviews/documentaries in trad goth culture the make up and clothes they were wearing were actually intentionally subverting gender. Often to appear unattractive/androgynous. It was related to feminist beliefs and body autonomy and rebellion. So yes a lot of modern goth aesthetics appear to be hyper feminine and it evolved into smth else, but the og intention was to separate themselves from oversexualization and gender norms. (Great video analysis btw! I just thought id add on to this!)
Oh wow I've watched multiple videos on goth fashion and I think yours is the first to clearly point out that trad goth was not all black and white like the pictures might lead to believe, but did use plenty of colour! It's so funny, this is kind of like thinking that colour was invented only recently and that everything used to be black and white before lmao
I used to be a wanna be goth when I was like 11, then I had a phase where I hung out with metalheads but didn't really dress like them, then I completely diverged from goth styles until recently, and now I'm kinda goth in both the fashion sense and through the music I listen to! I just love everything goth, from Edgar Allan Poe and Emily Brontë to Vivienne Westwood and DIY alternative fashion
What great journey! I think goth most of all about seeing the darker things in life as not all bad, and finding joy in things beyond the basics. If you’re interested, check out the documentary in the references! it’s quite interesting to see interviews with all sorts of goths in the 90s, they’re all so cheerful and thrilled with their choices but also very pragmatic about the discussions of why people choose to dress up, put make up on, and everything else in between. Really glad you enjoyed!
3:52 When I dressed goth in the 80s, thrift stores were looked down upon and you could find older clothes and jet jewelry for cheap.
I have been Goth since 1998 and on the one hand, I envy baby bats of today, that they can just order up all of the makeup and clothes they can dream of but on the other hand, I feel like they are missing out on a big part of what makes Goth fashion so fun when you first start out. I mean...I literally wore the white face paint out of those cheap Halloween pallets from Walmart or the dollar store as foundation with the black from those same pallets as black lipstick. I would buy up as many as I could during Halloween time and use them all year long because it was all but impossible for a poor kid from Ohio to find Manic Panic white makeup or non-Halloween makeup black lipstick in the late 90's and early 2000's. We wore what we liked and could afford from the thrift stores, especially someone like me who is still sadly hopeless with DIY. Just like with the music that we went to great lengths just to hear (let alone buy), we had to really search out our look and it was a lot of fun. I would advise all baby bats to forego the easier way of just ordering up available clothes and try instead to DIY (if you are good at that) or thrift if you can afford it to play with your style. Don't worry about what is "in" because there's no such thing, really, in Goth. It's a music subculture so your clothes can literally be whatever you like and you can still be Goth. Don't watch makeup tutorials. Play with your makeup. Remember...if you mess up, it washes off. Try again. Find what makes you feel like your truest most beautiful self because it's unbelievably empowering when you get to that point.
I like this video a lot. I also love your look. 💜🖤💜🖤
short of the music this is how I do goth! im 18
That was interesting, the bit on using Halloween face paint to begin creating the look.
This is a really sweet comment
@LPSCANDY10 Well, as much shit as Baby Bats get online for just trying to figure everything out, I feel like what is the point of being in a scene for almost thirty years if you don't share what you know from your experience and also stick your hand out for the kids coming up now? Who else will be there for them, you know? And if the past is anything to go on, I fear another Satanic Panic is in the works right now where, like the 90's, anyone who is "different" in any way can and will get scapegoated. Us older people have already gone through that but some of these kids were not even born yet while that was in full swing so, if I am right and that's how the political climate is about to swing, we really need to be the shield for the baby bats that we did not have back then.
🤷🏻♀️ Or maybe I am just old and I am getting sentimental in my old age...😂 But I will always be here for anyone new to Goth who wants band recommendations (I have a giant public playlist on here... it's mostly Trad with some Ethereal thrown in and it's bands going all the way back to the Cure up to some of the amazing Goth bands we have today) or who just wants to talk about the scene. There are also some amazing channels on here like Angela Benedict and Of Herbs and Altars that I would recommend highly to anyone. Both channels are very supportive of Baby Bats, both creators have been Goth as long or longer than I have, and both talk about what it was like back then but also issues of those starting out today. 💜
Ankhs are popular in the goth community because are the symbol of life, undeath, and immortality. Like vampires.
about the last question - alternative subcultures are based on inclusion, acceptance, and self expression and generally progressive values. If someone who identifies as goth or punk shares those values, has interest in the music, interest in the history of the culture, then yes theyre valid. but if it's someone who knows nothing about it and simply wears black clothing but doesn't share anything with the lifestyle, music, or values, and simply thinks dark clothes=goth, then....no. With the popularization and commodification of punk and goth clothing, a lot of people will say they enjoy the style but only speak positively about the sanitized versions. and i find these people often tend to still be very hateful towards people who lean into the aesthetic extremes. Boiled down... if you call yourself goth but get weirded out or think that ppl w trad goth makeup are freaks... you're not goth
I think that’s an excellent way to put it! Thank you for watching and commenting :)
Absolutely! People like that share more in common with the people who bullied us in high school than they do with us. They are the same people who will say the music has nothing to do with Goth...a music based subculture... because Goth is a "lifestyle". You ask them what the "lifestyle" is for them and all they can give you is a sanitized answer that involves only the clothes they like. Within five years they will move on to something else and honestly, I can't wait. 😂
Goth here! I love this video. Seeing videos that do a deep dive into the long history of goth is very fascinating to me. For your question on goth types and them all being valid, I personally think that all of them are valid BECAUSE the main point of being goth is listening to goth music. This isn't to say you have to listen to JUST goth music, but it is a major factor and the main reason for being goth. You can listen to the goth music and dress however you want. While I personally dress goth, it varies from what style I use. I bounce between vampire, casual, trad, whimsy, cyber, etc. I love so many different aspects of the goth subculture that is separate from the music. Of course I love the music first and foremost, but the many branches of it are fascinating as well. You do not have to strictly adhere to one specific type of goth, whether it be trad, cyber, etc. There are so many ways to express yourself, even outside of the goth subculture.
This exactly! My music taste shifted heavily towards wave and post punk in recent years which technically makes me goth but I've also found myself enjoying color and pastels in my clothing and style more than ever in the last couple years. I definitely still look alt, but I don't think (on most days) anyone seeing me would think "oh yeah, goth" and that's perfectly fine. I simply appreciate others who do dress up goth but it's just not for me (apart from the jewerly)
I feel goth started as anti-fashion. Long baggy black clothes as opposed to day glo and preppy styles. Plus, the threat of nuclear war made us as fatalists and into deep mourning! Add, Hammer films on TV and reading Poe and Shelley…there you go!
I think anti fashion might have been the attitude of some, but my impression was anti mainstream fashion. Anti fashion as a modicum of fitting in! But not anti fashion as self expression :)
I disagree with that notion. The early Goth movement drew inspiration from the New Romantics and the Punk scene, showcasing a significant overlap and evolution from those influences into Goth. Fashion in the New Romantics and Punk scenes progressed alongside the music. Members of the goth scene were actively thrifting for outfits and dedicating considerable effort to their hairstyles and makeup. Those who reject fashion typically don’t invest that kind of time.
@ Both of those were happening at the same time though.
From experience in the early 2000s, while the female goth styles were often hyperfeminine, there was an undercurrent of empowerment in them that was missing elsewhere. I'd (lovingly) call it Drag in Black, the aim was very much to be a queen.
I think “drag in black” is such a beautiful way to put it! I personally love and embrace involving hyper femininity in my personal style, and completely agree that it can be empowering, but I still think it’s important to acknowledge the societal effect on what we wear. Since we don’t live in a vacuum, anything that can be reclaimed as empowering, I think shouldn’t lose the history and context that brought it to that point. Thank you for your insightful comment!
THANK YOU for giving attention to goth fashion and culture outside of Euro-American Anglo-centric cultural sphere. I mingle around goth cultures in the English speaking world (mostly in the UK as that’s where I live) as well as in East Asia (Hong Kong and Japan), and I’m so sick and tired of people only bringing up goth cultures in the English speaking world. I’ve even heard people defending this euro-centric mindset for saying that goth’s root is inherently European. While that’s true, I think it’s plain ignorant to not look at how other cultures have adopted goth culture and aesthetics in their cultural region and put a spin on it. It’s like talking about the history of Chinese food without talking about how it got popularised in overseas due to migration and diaspora.
Another comment has already pointed out the misconception of Gothic Lolita being only a fashion subculture. I’d say that’s mostly true with the Lolita subculture in general nowadays, but again, Gothic Lolita (or usually referred as ゴスロリ/GothLoli in Japanese) stems from Visual Kei/Vkei, and especially popularised by Mana, - who’s not only a musician, but also produces a very popular goth and gothic Lolita brand called Moi Meme Moitie. These musicians were often featured on early issues of the Gothic and Lolita Bible - and within the magazine, there are portions describing how an ideal goth would listen to goth-coded music to start their goth aesthetic day. (I can’t think of the actual issue and page number on top of my head, but I can do some digging if needed.) Apparently, when Malice Mizer was at their height of activity in around 1999-2000, their audience were seen wearing gothic-Lolita attire to celebrate the theatrical fashion sense of Vkei. I highly recommend checking out their Bara no Seido live show to get a sense of their fashion and aesthetic choices! It’s such a feast.
It’s also worth noting that Vkei has its roots in Japanese’s take on postpunk music, which is something I’ve never heard bringing up in any goth history videos because of their limited regional scope.
So sorry for the long winded comment, but my gothloli brain can’t help but to nerd out. Looking forward to your future videos - from a goth and gothic Lolita enjoyer(wearer) and enthusiast 💙🦇
It’s such a pleasure to see my video evoke such a well thought out and beautifully insightful comment. Visual kei and its off shoots absolutely deserve its own in depth analysis. Thank you for pointing me in the direction of some great first research steps 😊
It's also important to emphasize that Malice Mizer and Mana wasn't the only musicians wearing lolita-like clothes at the time. I truly believe gothic lolita would still have happened without Mana (though I adore him), albeit not at the scale we see today. Malice Mizer's early music had some gothic rock influences, which can be traced back to the post-punk/deathrock (also called positive punk) in Japan.
Another note: Dolly kei is the term used in the western fandom to prefer to a type of fashion in the 2010s (way after the birth of lolita fashion) inspired by the brand Grimoire. Lolita fashion is definitely influenced by (actual) antique dolls, however.
I LOVE this comment sm! I grew up with Visual Kei and that was actually my gateway into the gothic world. Only now am i delving into American goth music
I can understand your annoyance, and you're right about the range of goth culture. But I also understand the reaction you're getting. You're talking to people who think they understand something, and place personal self-esteem into their ability to understand that thing. You come along and tell them "Hey, you only know about part of what you think you're an expert in. To really understand, you need to learn about these foreign cultures, and maybe even learn some Japanese..."
So they freak out, and engage in arguments to try to prove that they really do understand things well enough without needed to learn a ton of new things in languages they can't comprehend.
Whimsi goth perfectly sums me up. Love the trad goth music, and I regularly read victorian ghost stories. But I enjoy colorful outfits and make my own embroidered/knit/crochet wear. I always joke: grandma on the outside, goth on the inside.
You neglected to mention the influence of German Expressionism cinema on the genesis of the subculture; The Somnambulist from the Cabinet of Dr Caligari is the prototypical example of the esthetic : svelte, hollow eyed, clad head to toe in black.
this is the first i'm hearing of gorpcore and i need a 40 minute deep dive on this niche aesthetic. great video! i had a lot of goth friends growing up in the noughties but i was more of a classic metalhead. got a lot of fond memories going to gigs with my friends at 14 and buying merch of obscure bands i wish i still had today.
To me, goth is mainly about the music, while fashion is secondary. I’ve never viewed Psychobilly as goth; instead, it stems from my journey through the punk scene and the whole "greaser" nostalgia. A wrecking pit shares more similarities with a punk mosh pit than with a goth club. Nonetheless, there are definitely overlaps with goth...especially with the New Romantics crossing over it. I enjoy seeing it included here, as it definitely adds a different nuance to the subculture that I never considered.
I used to do a lot of air travel in the mid-aughties, dressed Goth. You can imagine I received the "special S" nearly every time, finding myself in the side rooms for questioning and having my backpack searched. I have since learned I can wear a suit with my cute little skull elements and speedrun the security without the special S. I do miss my colored spiked hair and Frankensteined clothes, but I don't miss the dumb questions and searches.
My son is getting into goth and I told him to not look at today’s fashions for his clothes. Showed him a video of a talk show from late 90’s-00’s and he fell in love and said that the goth styles back then were way more intricate than modern fashions. Also, I’m showing him some older bands from when I was around his age (he’s 14).
90's mall goth who grew up into a 40-something office goth/minimalist goth here - thank you for this video. I'm too old to know anything about Bubblegoth but it just looks like Loligoth? I must be missing something. Nonetheless I appreciate the amount of work you put into this and enjoyed watching it very much.
Thank you so much! I think the key thing that differentiates bubble goth is the more art pop music and incorporation of cybergoth accessories!
@@bymayaginzburgstop trying to make bubblegoth a real thing, you mixed up internet labels and real goth history. It's obvious that you are not in the scene as real goths here don't even know what you're talking about.
I miss the 80's early 90's. Gen X here and I remember the emergence of goth. It seemed to come out of new wave with splash of punk. I was a punk but drifted and became more eclectic and combined punk/goth/ witchy because it's all beautiful 💚. I definitely enjoyed shredding all my clothes and putting my personal touch in. I still do😂 as I feel it's much more creative and I'm old school
I'm a baby bat, and I love learning more and more about goth, I watched a ton of videos, your is my favorite so far and I don't think there's much more competition! Seriously! I can see how much work you put into that video, I enjoyed watching every second of it!
this is so kind! 🥹thank you so much :)
@@bymayaginzburg 🫶🫶🫶
90's trag goth. Thanks so much for this video ❤❤❤
AAH after watching so many analyses of different kinds of fashion, their histories and cultures, i'm so glad i finally stumbled upon this video combining all of those with goth. totally my kind of video!!
this is an amazing analysis of the goth culture and its history. i absolutely loved how you took the time to draw and illustrate key features of each goth fashion subgenre. it was actually so informative to watch. i've stumbled upon so many of these styles like rockabilly and perky goth, but never quite grasped what it was. you summarised it perfectly!
i also really loved how you brought up different cultures that influenced goth fashion, such as the egyptian motifs, and how other cultures have adopted it, such as in japanese cultures. as an indian goth, its rare to come across representations and acknowledgement of culture that is not western within goth fashion so i enjoyed seeing it here in this video essay.
to ponder upon the question you presented at the end, while i'm no goth expert (in fact i'm more of a baby bat), i think all kinds of goth are valid as long as they respect the integral values of goth mainly its music and political beliefs.
SO glad you enjoyed! :)
13:15 It crosses over with steampunk as well. I would say romantic got was from the 80s and New Romantics first, before the 90s ethereal.
In the goth clerb we all fam
Thank you, this was very interesting and I love all those gorgeous people and their looks! I love fashion but have never been very fashionable, maybe some in the 80's in my teens and early twenties.
I'm glad people are more accepting of mall goths nowadays, because there's actually nothing wrong with them as long as they dont claim to be goth. just misuse of a label that contributes to it watering down. which isn't the worst thing in the world, but as a subculture if we want to keep the culture that originally started in the late 70s then we have to have regulation and protection of our traditions, values, and our label. it's essential in keeping our culture alive. that does NOT mean bully baby bats who are still learning or generally more chill and less educated on the history of goth. DONT gatekeep and constantly call people posers, DO politely educate on what it means to be goth and our history and values and realize it's for others to not be your exact definition of goth. there are many facets of goth culture, as long as they listen to the music, aren't a bigot, and try to participate in the culture and scene in some way I personally would consider them goth
anyway, mallgoths are fine! they're just metalheads, not goths, that's all
Which music specifically? I am not being sarcastic, I am genuinely asking. I've heard a lot of people within the goth community argue that certain bands do or do not count as goth, and opinions vary and sometimes contradict.
I'm in a weird spot where I genuinely find most music very hard to listen to and find venue shows and live music overwhelming (because medical issues), but I am trying! And failing.
I was first introduced to the subculture as a child by a college-age artist who changed my life for the better. I wanted to dress like her, and I ended up getting into illustration because I was inspired by her art.
I gravitated towards the visuals, and now, unrelatedly, I move through a lot of anarcho-communist circles and local activist groups.
People look at me and think I look "goth", but I don't think I can call myself that because I have no real attachment to any form of music.
What does someone call a person who appears gothic but cannot listen to music?
Just "alternative", maybe?
@afish4086 there's a lot of different types of goth music! I definetly get the confusion lmao a lot of times I get confused aswell. there's this one video that explains all the genres well but I forgot the nane
anyway, goths tend to call those who dress like us but don't listen to the music "gothic"! it's totally fine if your not goth btw, you don't have to be one, and you can still be in our spaces and dress like us! your very much welcone in the community, even if you don't like the music, there is more to enjoy about goth culture and generally if you go out to your local scene and befriend a goth they likely won't care about what you call yourself at all and will just be happy to talk abt other things, esoecially the anarcho communist thing a lot of goth spaces are not fans of capitalism lol, I myself am a socialist. but anyway yeah I wouldn't say you can claim our label, but that doesn't mean the label is like some exclusive pass into the community. anyone is welcome to vibe with us! there's goth literature, fashion, politics, history, culture and traditions, all that. music is generally the most important part (arguably politics too), but judt because your not into that doesn't mean you can't vibe with us and hang out. our community has and always will be a safe haven for the freaks, traditionally we've always been generally very welcoming to all. of course you have your elitists and gatekeepers but just know thsts not the majority and most goths would love to vibe with a gothic person imeven if they're not capital g Goth. feel free to partake in any part of our culture you want! just realize what the word goth means and realize how important music is to us and maybe learn about out culture (I say that moreso to everyone rather than you as it seems you already know a bit), that's all :]
@@afish4086Nu metal.
I agree on the mallgoth thing alot, i am a metalhead AND goth, but alot of metalheads just love gothic/dark fashion, but because metal goes through the same thing in terms of wannabes watering down the culture most of us understand
mall goths ARE posers. it's an insult. Its a consumerist subculture that takes the style of alt and leaves the values
I loved this video so much! Thank you for going this deep into each sub genre.
It made me really think about my own evolution and how I lived it, from when I first started wearing simple black and alternative pieces to middle school because i didn't feel the common fashion was for me, feeling pointed at every day from classmates but still choosing not to blend in, until today when I have perfected my taste and found my own cozy and confident skin in the clothes and makeup that I wear almost everyday (and which friends and family appreciate and call tasteful and well thought, which I am grateful for). And I love how it all makes sense now: I ended up studying literature at high school and graduating at university, I have always been deeply in love with Romanticism and gothic literature, melancholic, gothic and darker art genres, folklore and mythology, and victorian and edwardian fashion, and I ended up incorporating them all in my everyday life without even noticing.
I’m so glad you enjoyed! thank you for watching and commenting :)
As a 90s trad goth, you did an excellent job covering origins & deviations. Thoroughly enjoyed this!
thank you so much! very glad you enjoyed!
I am goth myself and consider myself deeply a part of the subculture for a few years now. You did an excellent job covering the different styles, history, and inspiration. One of the most high quality video essays I've seen on RUclips on goth culture. I actually read a book about this called Goth Culture: Gender, Sexuality and Style by Dunja Brill and she also observed how it leans into androgyny on the male side, and ultra femininity on the female side. Men performing androgyny is perceived as more "courageous" and out of the box, and while there is androgyny on the female side, most female goth looks go towards the hyper feminine route or sexualized side. It is a bit outdated as it was written in 2008. Some things have changed since then, and some have stayed the same. Would still recommend that book, it has interviews and observations from goth club patrons from all different locations and the analysis on the intersection of goth style, music, and gender.
One nitpicky thing I have about the video is that you might be placing too much emphasis on some fashion styles here. Some have quite a rich history like romantic goth, but bubblegoth and whimisgoth are not quite connected to goth imo. Perhaps loose connections, but I think a focus on deathrocker fashion would be better in place in the video rather than the other two as there is much more developed fashion and music behind that. Also you did touch on the fact goths wore color, I think it would've been neat to mention how the new romantic scene was intertwined with alternative subcultures at the time too, so artists like A Flock of Seagulls and Boy George were popular with their flamboyant, colorful style that goth people were drawn to as well. Other than that, a great job on this video! for sure subscribing
thank you for such an in depth comment! You have great points and I am glad to see them added to the conversation. Thank you 😊
This is splendid! Now subscribed! So concise and with the historical & retro references. I clearly recall. the retro ones. I am a historical costumer/ costume designer by trade. My education dating way back in the mid 1970's. (Yes I am that old! Nearly 70...omg). If I were in my 20' to 30's today I would be presenting more Goth than I do on occasion ,when I go out to 'Goth Night" to dance and enjoy the vibe and music. Because of my love of fashion history I am a Victorian Goth Gal at heart. Looking forward to diving into more of your podcasts! Bravo!!!
Thank you so much! So cool to have some support from a professional, I have so much respect for historical costuming and recreation work, and hope to get to move into that direction in my own career! Thank you for watching and I’ll be curious to see what you have to say about the next episode 👀
New sub, as a fashion & music (it *feeds* me) lover who gets confused by all these new sub-genres as evidenced by my handle, but you did a great job! Stuff we just called “Goth” is now so subdivided now; even RnR has its weird subdivisions, if I love it I don’t care what it’s called. I grew up with all kinds of music playing, radio or stereo always on. My mom loved early Elvis (up to his black leather period as do I, rockabilly to me), blues, soul, R & B, British Invasion (she loved Beatles, I loved Stones😉), loved many later artists, even my beloved Bowie (she dubbed me a rebel when about 2 in the early 60s, later called me her “mini” Bowie😊). So I was always a hodgepodge of musical influences; even tho I came into my own w/ Bowie @ 10 going on 11 when I gave a huge🖕to my bullies; he was instrumental in developing my style, identity (still is I suppose). I was one of the early CBGB Punks (1 of 4 of the last to walk out closing night😢) @ 14-15, early Dark Glam/ Goth pioneers. As far as early Dark Glam/Goth goes we did wear all kinds of colours (same as early Punk we looked kinda scruffy but like anyone else), our makeup (people of any sexual ID) was more theatrical based on “gothic horror” & bands like the OG Alice Cooper Band, certainly nothing as “pretty” as Goths today. We used white theatrical foundation to make us pale; easily found at Manic Panic (of which I’m 1 of the OG employees & are still my dear family of choice) in NYC but also raided shops at Halloween & stocked up. Nothing wrong w/ not having “the look” w/ any music genre as long as you love the music IME you’re one of us. But these “cores” are driving me 🦇shit crazy (& I’m in the outta my mind club😉) as they claim to be whatever “core” they’re wearing but don’t know the music. How can you claim a music based subculture but not know the music?? Can’t count how many times someone wearing a Joy Division (booked their 1st NY gig😢), Ramones even CBGB tee who didn’t know it was a band or nightclub (when it was still open no less) from around early 2000’s onward, now even more so! Why would you wear a tee not knowing who or what it is? That’s how we found our tribes from the 70s-early 90s. I’ve met “influencers” who hate metal wearing Iron Maiden tees! When I say ‘so you’re a fan?’ They say yes, so I ask them to name 1 song & they can’t😡. What bcos it’s trendy? Eff that, save it for fans & wear the free swag you push people to over consume. I know I’m mixing genres here, but I’m a literal mongrel when it comes to my musical loves😊! Sorry for the long post, I could go on more but will shut my cakehole now! With💚, Jet 🧡🎸🎶⚡️🤘🦋🏍🦇🦇🦇
I absolutely love this! I’d be really interested to see you dive into other subcultures - or maybe look at the differences between aesthetics and subculture. Really insightful video :)
Love this video! The attire and make up is megnefique! I wish you all the best, many videos and plenty subscribers!
Thank you so much!!
amazing video! just going to say that gothic lolita did come from music in a way, different to other types of lolita, it was the way fans of musicians like Mana would dress to go to the concerts and from there it grew into a thing of it's own. Mana was basically the origin of gothic lolita cause fans got inspired from the way he dressed
Hi there! Really enjoyed this but I have to gently correct you:
EGL/Goth lolita actually COMES FROM MUSIC! The fashion is basically from the JP equivalent of goth because it technically emerged from dolly kei and visual kei aesthetics. Mana, the very beloved famous guitarist from Malice Mizer and current producer and memeber of Moi Dix Moi, popularized the style. So yes, it is from the music it just also is doing its own thing. I'm a goth who also wears gothic lolita. There's a huge amount of overlap and while lolita fashion as a whole doesn't come from the music subculture all of the other substyles came FROM gothic lolita. Hope that helps. I love all of this stuff very deeply so it's important to me that folks are aware.
Thank you for clarifying! I mentioned visual kei briefly, but I knew I would need to do a lot more research to give it justice so I didn’t want to say too much on the subject without it. Visual kei and all its offshoots definitely deserves a full video of its own and I hope I can get to researching it properly soon :)
So where does Strawberry Switchblade fit into this, because I remember hearing that their look had an influence. Their success being in the mid 80s
For those not in the know, "Strawberry Switchblade - Since Yesterday" look it up. Broadly the looks is there in 1985, the music is more pop with a wistful whimsical feel. While a one hit wonder here in the UK (but that one hit was a wonder to behold) they did have more success in Japan.
I wouldn't say that all other substyles of lolita came from gothic lolita. Yes, gothic lolita was hugely popular in the late 90s - early 2000s and it even had influences on brands we think of as sweet and classic now, but lolita doesn't just have its roots in the 90s vkei scene. Lolita cultural history is deeply complicated but the brands that went on to influence it has existed for decades before that. And it can be argued the kawaii movements of the late 60s was part of the catalyst for lolita fashion. Important brands like MILK and Pink House started in the 70s, before the vkei scene even started. But it's true that the post-punk scene and fans of Trans Records was hugely influential to what will eventually be gothic lolita. This fact is often overlooked by western goth.
Visual kei is not goth. Even when it's gothic, it's not goth, it's something else. Musically, it's just pop-rock. So saying that gothic lolita is real goth is just wishful thinking, and shows no understanding of where goth culture comes from or what it means. The word "culture" is key; goth is NOT just an aesthetic.
I’m someone who mixes alternative 80s fashion and the mainstream. I like wearing color and whenever i do people will start trying to label me like “emo scene gyaru”. It feels like a lot of people are just boxing themselves in like no i’m going to express myself however i want im goth no matter what color i wear. I dress very extreme and it’s not expensive it’s really not idk why people have that made up in their minds.
I think fast fashion has led to a boxing in of aesthetics, so that you can have an easy “insert aesthetic” to google, and immediately be able to by cheap, poor quality pieces that let you “achieve the look”. My belief is that it comes from a need to belong, and while that need can be fulfilled in various ways, when clothing is used as a way to put yourself into a box rather than express yourself, it’s limiting. Personally I can’t think of a label for my style, I choose to wear what I want to wear in that moment and what makes me feel like me, and whether it’s extreme one day or simple another, it is still my look. I think labels are comforting for some people, and when exploring your self expression, it helps to have a name to start searching from. I optimistically hope that most people will grow out of that and settle into themselves so that clothing can be a pleasure of expression rather than just a necessity, or a mark of belonging.
thanks so much for this video. Its the most complete and deep one that ive ever seen!
thank you so much! I tried my best ☺️
Such a good work, it is clear you know what you’re talking about and the montage is soooo good. I can’t believe you are just starting RUclips. I need more episodes asap 😂❤️❤️❤️❤️
Thank you for covering this!
I hope I did the topic justice! 😊
I love it when youtube auto plays me a fashion video and I look up and I'm in it (in the cybergoth section).
Great video! I thought I knew all about gothic history but there were a few fun tib bits in here that were new to me.
This was awesome! Thank you! I was a wannabe Goth in the 80s because I grew up in a very religious household. I dyed my hair black, but told everyone it was because it was part of my Egyptian style Halloween costume. This is the only way that they would accept me having dyed black hair!
Now they all at Sephora disturbing the peace!😂. I loved this video but the way!
Excellent college of images and commentary! I might have blinked and missed something. I didn't hear any mention of smbd fetish bondage wear. I'm going to rewatch with my boyfriend later.
It was definitely a lot to cover in one video, thank you for watching! 😊I mention bondage wear briefly in the trad goth section, and the social implication section!
in the first 30 seconds u describe a podcast i have been needing for so long. tysm
aww thank you so much for the support! ☺️
This was a fantastic video. I have been a goth since I was 15. In my early 20's I drew a lot of inspiration from the 80's post punk bands. Although I admire the goths who absolutely rock a Victorian inspired look I was never into the lace and fills of the goth style. I have always preferred a sleeker silhouette but have similarly been influenced by historical fashion. I basically spent a lot of time trying to look like a 1930's vampire.
I'm in my 30's now. A few years ago after my sense of style changed a felt a real sense of loosing my goth identity. I still loved the same music, films and general creepy stuff just my outward presentation had softened a little. I had spent more than half my life as a goth and the idea that people wouldn't perceive me that way really got to me. I ended having up bit of a goth reaffirming by purging all the colour from my wardrobe. It made me feel better even if I knew the original goths didn't only wear black.
Now I think I have found a happy medium between how I want to look and how I need to look. I think of my style as 'minimalist goth'. I love playing around with interesting fabrics, cuts and tailoring details in an all black outfit. Interesting hems, odd next lines and super extra sleeves. Subtle references in accessories. It might not be the full trad but it works for me.
Having said that I will still probably be looking like a 1930's vampire as I haunt the nursing home.
I love goth culture an fashion, I've always felt connected to the dark an macabre, the disturbing an creepy an just plain wierd. I sadly don't go full out styled the way I want to but I do what I can to feel good by wearing dark exaggerated makeup an alot of black. Some day I wanna look just as cool an spooky as the people who rock it awesomely. I believe any version of goth is valid, people should be able to dress how they want an give the vibe they want ❤
What a great historical info about my all time facourite style!! And the cat ❤ - we also have a brit 😸 - 19,5 years old!
I did not know about this Batcave - but here in Finland, Helsinki, we had a similar kind of club & place called Lepakko - that is a bat in Finnish 😮
So cool to hear someone from Finland watching my video, I have always wanted to visit! how fascinating about Lepakko, and I wonder if it happened on its own or if it was referencing the batcave! Could easily have been either with the bat + goth associations!
@ yes, either is possible and the place was also called Lepakkoluola that is exactly a batcave in Finnish. I visited there a few times as a teenager in the nineties before it was demolished in 1999…
Great video and rather well-informed. However, I dont think classifying these different styles into 'subgenres' is quite accurate. The subculture is Goth, with these more specific subsets being primarily styles. I know you made a very good disclaimer about how goths can and do blend styles or have different styles from day to day, but separating these styles too much can still come across as these being distinct boxes that you essentially choose from. I wouldn't bring this up normally, since you did make a disclaimer. However, I see a lot of talk online where many babybats seem to think they they must pick a specific subset, stick to it, and use the specific name. So, I just want to highlight that.
I also want to note that not everyone who does dress up extravagantly can do so all of the time. Most are relegated to when you go to the club or for another special occasion. I don't believe I've seen many people *tell* others have to always dress to the nine's or gatekeep from that, but I do see a lot of babybats still thinking they have to always dress up or that goth influences are always dressed up like they are in their posts.
It seems that there are a lot of online only issues with goth that aren't an issue irl. I do wonder why that is
Great insights! I think the online world is a bit of an amplifier, so while some gatekeeping, and snootiness exists in every subculture, the internet provides an anonymous microphone for it. Even in the comments of this video you’ll find people arguing about these things. My goal in the video was to convey the historical origins of goth, and its processes of splintering. Whether one style of goth is actually more “valid” than another, is kind of a moot point; their existence, and all the ways people interpret them, makes the as real as any other. Thank you for watching :)
As a Moonchild myself, Kerli doesn't necessarily reflect bubblegoth anymore as she's definitely more in her enchantress/witchy era, but i LOVE the inclusion nonetheless
This was so beyond fabulous, thank you for putting so much effort into the video production it was such a good watch!!
thank you so much! It really means a lot 🥹
This is great! Thanks for sharing all your hard work
thank you so much!
First goth fashion history vid I really enjoyed
I’m so glad you enjoyed it!
Great video. Think you missed out on the influence of films in the 90's, especially for male romantic goth style. Films such as Elvira Mistress of the Dark (1988), Interview with the Vampire and The Crow had a major influence at the time (1994), more so in my opinion than literature. You could also throw in The Munsters and the old Hammer Horrors. 90's in the UK also saw the rise of goth stores, most notably Camden Market in London which I feel is different than the "mall goth" as the clothing was not mass produced which is my impression of the mall goth. There's also something more subtle ignored by commentators on fashion and that is the influence of "acceptance" in the goth scene. As the scene (especially when it comes to clubbing) tends to be "safe", it meant people, especially but not limited to men, felt comfortable experimenting with fetish and androgyny integrating it into the styles. Some people may also like looking up "Iman - Goth is a legitimate look" as it shows some of the perception outside the scene.
Very well put! I think a lot of discussions about goth fashion, whether intentionally or not, will downplay more transgressive elements like fetish and gender-bending.
just stumbled across your channel by chance! amazing video and so well put together, ive already subbed
Funny how there are so many cathegories today. We had trad, victorian, punk, metal, casual and later cyber in north germany in the early 90s. But most people just wore band shirts and cargo pants at the clubs, and the girls just all kinds of black clothes they found or could afford.
I bet its exhausting to be a baby bat today *g
The algorithm did something well this time. Nice video and there were a lot new ones I didn't know about. Thx for adding the japanese side because Visual-K is extremely extra but still part of the goth imho. But wtf is bubblegum? Thx for this elaborate deep dive and I hope u get more subribers.
Well, we had to be creative and buy stuff secondhand from the local theater hand me downs…there weren’t gothic shops. I buy that stuff now. 😊
Punk Goth was a western category sense the 90s at least. Likely not mentioned as it is likely linked to the mall goth esthetic. It's the look I pulled off in Highschool, and when my listening habits were generally mettal at the time, it was mostly because Goth was exceptionally hard to get your hands on in suburban Texas. I think about combination of Metal, Punk and Goth listening was common for this subgenre at the time.
This is so well researched! I wanted a video like this 5 years ago! WORTH THE WAIT! (Now can we have one on punk?)
Thank you! Punk will definitely come eventually, but for the moment I do have a vivienne westwood episode, and the stilyagi soviet subculture one, that might scratch that itch for now :)
Absolutely loved it best video I’ve seen for a while
this so sweet 🥹 thank you so much!
Goth can be inspired by any culture all around the world, some Goths love to have gede/voodoo inspired in their outfit and that's fine, btw thank for making this video❤
Absolutely, glad you enjoyed:)
In terms of gender in goth, there also is a great article by Dunja Brill "Gender, Status and Subcultural Capital in Gothic Style" in the book "Youth Cultures: Scenes, Subcultures and Tribes". Emo has been linked to hardcore punk that clashed with goth aesthetics after goth became the subject of a moral panic after the Columbine High School shooting. There's an article about this: "The Evolution of Emo and its Theoretical Implications".
Beautifullly done ! Absolutely loved the video, and I'm going to subscribe based on this one alone, lol... Hopefully the rest are just as good! Thanks again for all the work that I'm sure went into this!
Thank you so much for the support! I hope you do enjoy the other videos!
Good overview, and I like the point you made near the end that none of us are born in a vacuum. I think people too often forget that their choices (including fashion) are shaped by cultural norms.
Imo, I think you should have talked about “fetish goth” as a style - or at least, said more about how elements of fetish culture present in goth fashion. I think it’s interesting that, for instance, that it is so normalized in goth fashion to wear things like chokers and harnesses, which otherwise would have kink connotations.
Im also not completely satisfied with the explanation that androgyny in goth is a holdover from historical dandies - that only really accounts for things like ruffles and Victorian-style corsets, without really digging into some of the more overt examples of gender bending without a historical counterpart (e.g. male goths dressing in female attire, and often times full on drag).
Definitely agree that androgyny for female goths is limited. I’d like to see that pushed further by present and future goths
Thank you for such a thought out and well written comment! I am certain there is so much more I could have delved into, and fetishwear is definitely an addition to the list. In a lot of ways it is a hold over from punk/post punk culture, so I went a bit more into that side of things in my Vivienne Westwood video. In terms of the androgynous fashion choices of goths, I completely agree, the “dandification” applies most to the ruffle and flounce side of goth, and as with any subculture, I am certain there is more to discover from the stories of individuals, who live outside of documentary sources 😊Thank you again for watching and commenting :)
I love a variety of goth looks and I am also very into vintage. You'd think I'd like gothabilly but it is the bane of my existence trying to do fashion history research/wearing vintage in public/explaining vintage fashion to people
I completely agree with you on the boots. I thought the sheer top would go with a layer type top or jacket to smooth the line. Your intelligent sense of production made for easy fashion design, I thought you were better off independent style.
You REALLY did your research! Bravo 👏
thank you so much! I try my best 😊
There are a few brands that are absolutely insane with pricing out customers. Two of my favourite brands for example: Celine and Saint Lautent and their standard black jeans. I used to buy them every so often, because they are nicely made and I’d rather have one or two where i vibe with the design and would rather have the original than an approximation.
They used to be around 400€, they are now 650€. That’s a 62% price raise!
Now even with sales I really think thrice about buying the stuff because even at those prices it’s extremely expensive.
Yep- that intro will get me to subscribe
amazing video^^ thanks for you work!
thank you ☺️
Wow, very impressive research and fascinating subject!
Merci Sophie!
loved the video
thank you 😊 so glad you enjoyed!
This is very informative. I'm still exploring Goth fashion and not sure where I would fall, since I love so many Goth subcultures. I was wondering, do you have any videos or plans to make a video that goes over masculine/mens fashion? I'm having a really hard time finding inspiration and stores that are geared towards men.
Unfortunately, I don't have any specifically mens fashion videos yet, but I would recommend Pinterest (not sponsored but they should)! Personally it helped me a lot when I was younger. It's great for finding outfits you like and narrowing what is consistent between them. Once repeat styles are found, you can either keep some screenshots on hand while shopping, or use reverse image search on google to try and find specific items. In terms of stores I ALWAYS recommend thrift stores first, BUT if searching online, try to stick to resale sites or small businesses on etsy. Fast fashion is bad for many reasons but even just from a clothing perspective, thrifting makes shopping more like a treasure hunt, with great deals on high quality items with a story. Hope this little ramble helps!
ok wow subscribed! fascinating and so well made
thank you!
Obsessed with your look
thank you !! it was so fun to get glammed up ☺️
The 'feminine' male trad goths were not mostly from victorian inspiration originally it was from the high presence of trans people in the punk, post punk, new wave and goth community. Punk clubs/gigs, where this started, and the bat cave. Ot was a very open community. Later, with the new romantics, the victorian Dandy look started to come in.
Oh, so we talk about class analysis, fashion history, queer Marxist theory, AND we sew here? I think I shall be staying
great vid!
Living for the shade thrown at gate keepers!
This video is excellent, except that it's way, way off about Whimsigoth.
Whimsigoth is a not a long-term ongoing goth sub-style. It's a 2020s internet aesthetic that was coined to described very much not-goth new-age/witchy styles and characters of the late 1990s, most specifically the celestial aesthetic (moons, stars, silver, gold, yellow, red), and Willow from Buffy, or the characters from the Craft who *weren't* goth, or the sisters from Practical Magic. I have the impression that the people who coined it did not intend to confuse people into thinking it was part of the gothic subculture: the idea was that it was whimsical, but a little weird, not "goth stuff that's whimsical." However, people see the "goth" part and just run with it and assume that Whimsigoth is part of the subculture. At the time, that celestial/new-age aesthetic was considered a little more mainstream teen, hippie, or stoner, depending. It's more likely what your normie friend had in their room than what your goth friend had.
While there has maybe been some effort in the last six months or so to develop or adopt whimsigoth as a *new* goth sub-style, it certainly did not authentically exist as a recognized one in the 1990s. Nightmare Before Christmas was just goth, no subgenre (and it was very, very difficult to find merchandise before the late 1990s, when Hot Tooic began to sell more of it and you could occasionally find things at the Disney Store); so was Nancy. If it had existed, it basically would have just been part of perkygoth.
than you for clarifying! I think some discussions of it conflates the 90s references with the existence of a subculture.I should have differentiated better in the video. My impression was, that as goth elements and music were starting shift towards the mainstream, “normies” were involving elements of goth aesthetics in regular fashion. Since the modern aesthetic, is inspired by this, and the modern iteration of “whimsigoths” often still opt for traditional goth and new wave goth music, it somewhat legitimized it as a modern offshoot and a transition towards the mainstream in my eyes. I absolutely should have made a more clear distinction, thank you for your comment! and if I am way off base with this interpretation, please let me know :)
@ I think it's really a grey area, because whimsigoth *is* starting to become a valid, minor goth fashion/aesthetic/substyle -- now, because of people conflating it with a goth style and adopting it, and younger goths of today thinking it's a good idea. Just not necessarily historically in the 90s, and I can see how it would confuse people trying to research it. (The funny thing is that I have the classic "whimsigoth blanket" with the big sun in the middle and the red stripes on the ends, but I have it because it was *my mom's* -- she was into the entire celestial aesthetic in the 90s and it was very much not a goth thing at all for her.) The flip side is "whimsicraft" -- which is when it's basically the same "late 90s art teacher" vibe but lacks the witchy new agey let's-run-off-with-the-fairies element. And I think there's also a lot of grey area between Whimsigoth and Whimsicraft, personally -- some objects are going to be very hard to place between the two, very subjective to the person involved. But that's just how style is, I guess! (Editing to add: I'm also finding that the aesthetics wiki in particular has been edited a lot since the coinage of Whimsigoth to emphasize the Tim Burton stuff, when if you look at early videos about it here on RUclips, the early emphasis was definitely Willow, Practical Magic, Celestial Aesthetics, Sabrina the Teenage Witch.)
Anyway, keep doing what you're doing. 🩷
Maybe the word shouldn’t have “goth” in it then.
thank you! I think titles are made for putting things in a box, which I don’t necessarily love, but at the same time, it would be impossible to research anything if we had no names to go off of things. A double edged sword 😂 but nonetheless I think most of all it’s up to an individual how and if they want to label themselves, and there’s not really a right or wrong way to be anything, as long as you’re being yourself.
would agree with you! there were def people who dressed like this in the 90s but it was not a quite a recognized style as it is today. people who dressed like this back then probably just described themselves as witchy or hippie and it wasn't really like an intentional style, it was just whatever that was comfortable at the thrift store, a unique item they found at a flea market, or probably sold at metaphysical shops. or even made themselves. it was just natural and effortless. on tiktok the style is more much intentional about LOOKING witchy, rather than simply BEING witchy
love the video
thank you so much!
This was a great video
18:31 Well, there is Deathrock too…late 70s. Bela Lugosi’s Dead is late 70s.
Sorry if I missed it but I LOVE your hat, where? What's it called? Amazing video xx subscribed
thank you! I made it from wool hat making scraps I got from a milliner! here is the video of the process!
ruclips.net/video/13WIJR8St3Q/видео.html Eventually I am hoping to sell them :)
for now I am calling it a coif hat as it is a similar shape to medieval coif caps :)
In the 90's existed metal goths with the doom gothic metal era
5:57 Goth the term came from Andi Sex Gang. And plus, that article on the Doors.
i need this video to be three more hours long
I thought the cat was taxidermied at first lmfao
22:21 Strawberry Switchblade.
Well done
Thank you for this video ❤ as a lover of historical fashion, Victorian gothic and romantic gothic really speak to me aesthetically, also is there a term for a romantic goth who wears primarily white instead of black?
I think that white is just as common to see in romantigoth fashion as black, however if you go for more the frilly doll like style, goth lolita might be a the easier keyword for finding those styles online :)
Fire video
loooved this video ^_^
Your headpiece is so beautiful! Did you Made it yourself or can you buy it?
thank you I made it! here is the process! I will be selling them eventually!
ruclips.net/video/13WIJR8St3Q/видео.html
6:30 I dislike the using of the words Emo and Goth in the same sentence. They aren’t the same. The fashion and music aren’t the same either.
Same it makes my blood boil, infact i have expirience with both and i think they are almost complete opposites, saying goth and emo are the aame is like saying numetal and death metal are the same
wow such great video
thank you!
So I want to kindly let you know that Marlin Manson is not metal. Goths think he is because they don't want to calm him, the Metal community won't claim him. he is disrespectful. The Metal community is more relaxed and respectful nowadays than they were in the 80's and very early 90's.
I love your look! I keep looking at your hat and necklace!
Could you please make a video on Metal? (My home base).
your hat looks like a bald cap cosplaying as a chess board
19:52 You put Shelley in there without mentioning how she created sci fi and Frankenstein. Different than other gothic writing.