Need? Of course not. Extremely beneficial to ease and speed of translation and understanding the broader meanings of words used in the NT? Absolutely and without question. I got my degree in classics before my degree in biblical studies. I have yet to crack open a grammar of “biblical Greek” and hardly ever look at BDAG. None of it prevented me from translating circles around my colleagues and classmates in biblical studies, and in a tiny fraction of the time. That’s the simple truth of the matter. The only reason to go via and stick with Koine is a desire to not spend time on anything but the NT. That’s fine, but you will have a harder time at translation than you otherwise would have, until you’ve essentially memorized all the text. So it’s a trade-off. I knew a very famous NT scholar who would make all his advisees take the first two years of Greek offered in the classics department no matter how much Koine they had already had. They always found it to be a sort of boot camp, even in first-year Attic, a phenomenon that always amazed me. Shouldn’t they have had a considerable advantage, having already learned some basics? Btw, no one who already has Attic is made to take any introduction to Koine or “biblical” Greek in biblical studies departments. No one even whispered any such thing within earshot of me. Nor should they have. I know not everyone is trying to be a top-notch scholar or wishes to do more than just get a little closer to the biblical text. That’s all perfectly fine, as long as you accept and understand what you will and won’t be getting. But there’s no point in pretending Attic and a classical approach don’t offer extensive benefits, insights, and added expertise. After all, the world’s greatest experts in ancient Greek are classicists, not NT scholars. Everyone in academia knows that, including NT scholars. What NT scholars are world experts on is all the other stuff: the specifically early-Christian social, cultural, literary, textual, and theological background, for the most part. Classicists will be better on the generally classical and some of the social part, including Greek and Latin. Scholars of the Ancient Near East, the Hebrew Bible, and ancient Jewish studies will understand much of the Jewish part and its background (including Hebrew and Aramaic) better. And historians of early-Church history and scholars of Medieval studies will understand patristics and a good chunk of early theology better. NT scholars do exist at a rather idiosyncratic intersection of multiple disciplines, being world experts only in that intersection, not so much in any of the individual intersecting bits. Something very important to keep in mind when interacting with biblical studies and its various productions and tools.
Kind of similar to Modern Greek speakers and the NT as with classicists and the NT. I speak modern Greek fluently, and learning Koine Greek was not difficult at all. I was reading entire books of the NT just with my knowledge of modern Greek having never studied ancient Greek before.
I learned attic greek at seminary using Athenazae book 1 and 2 with corresponding workbooks. I then used Mounce's BBG system for Koine later at Biblical College. It definitely helps.
If you learn attic you are going to understand a lot of Koine, and if you learn koine you will understand a lot of attic. It's the same language with a small amount of differences. I started with Athenaze in the Italian version (the best textbook out there) and then moved to Biblingo. What I learned with Athenaze is being very helpful, but I love the tons of materials and good grammar for Biblical greek learning: quite systematic.
What I know is that I started out Greek reading Xenophon and others, followed with readings from the centuries counting down towards Christ, and only looked at Koine when we got to the first century A.D., and when I and classmates got to a school where other students had spent the same amount of time in just Koine, we breezed through everything in the New Testament while they were still struggling with everything but John and Mark. But the real advantage was that we'd read gobs of Greek before we tackled the New Testament and thus had our minds formed around the Greek itself without any prejudices from knowing what an English translation said. Over and over in the later classes the ones who'd started with Koine delivered translations that were word for word from the KJV or RSV or whatever else they'd grown up with. So the biggest advantage of starting with older Greek was that we learned to treat it as an actual different language and not like it was some sort of code that made it English in disguise. We'd also learned to just read the Greek in the order the words were written down when most of the students who'd started with Koine used the "search and assemble" method of separating the phrases and then putting them into English word order in order to translate; most of them couldn't just sit and read the Greek, they had to re-arrange it into an English structure. IMO they missed significant meaning because they weren't getting the sentence structure as the author built it. They also had real trouble when encountering Paul's run-on sentences of eighty or a hundred or more words, especially when we started diagramming the sentences; the "search and assemble" approach seemed to inoculate them against taking the words as they came and seeing the structure. I get annoyed still with videos that use the "search and assemble" method because it inherently fails to tackle the meaning involved in the choice of word and clause order of the author. One of my favorite peeves is when a definite article is separated from the corresponding noun by multiple words and they just go in search of the word it belongs to as though the author was being sloppy and they needed to fix it. But doing it that way isn't actually reading Greek, it's dissecting the Greek and re-assembling to make it speak English.
Technical writing courses teach us to write in short sentences with simple ideas that we then use other short sentences to synthesize the ideas together. So when an author throws 80+ words in a sentence without any sort of pause (no periods, no commas, no middle dots) it's just a bit overwhelming. It very much does come across as the author being reckless/clumsy.
12:54 - I don’t understand why Classical Greek literacy is (seemingly negatively) characterized as “…approaching (Greek) from ‘head knowledge’ and going down this path so we can be ‘puffed up’.” That sounds like how a lot of people characterize students of Biblical Greek who don’t simply rely on translations. Hellenistic (Koiné) Greek tend to be on a spectrum of formality between so-called “low” and “high” Greek (register). Some Biblical authors are less formal than others who “atticize” more often. This makes “Koiné” somewhat of a moving target. Thus Classical Greek literacy (on some level) helps students assess why various authors (and later scribes) make different choices between less formal and more formal language. The fact of the matter is, the Biblical authors were ALL proficient in Classical Greek (to some extent) as the standard literary form of the language taught in schools. So I think it’s less a question of whether students of Biblical Greek “NEED” Classical Greek, per se. Obviously, they don’t NEED it when there are sufficient resources for Biblical Greek. But they ignore it at their own peril if they really want to get a handle on the variety styles and registers found throughout the Greek Bible (NT and LXX). Classical Greek is useful far beyond developing an understanding the Greco-Roman world view. 15:05 - The recommendation for books to study Attic Greek: Plato, Josephus, Philo and Homer. Really? That was an odd response from someone who claims to be a tutor of Attic Greek. I was really hoping for an honorable mention of the Athenaze series (especially the Italian edition). If the recommendation is to approach Plato and even Homer (!) with nothing more than a foundation in Biblical Greek, that’s a recipe for frustration. In fact, it would be extremely satisfying if Mr. Burling would do a review of the Athenaze series (including the workbooks). There doesn’t seem to be a fair assessment here of the potential value of Classical Greek literacy (or Homeric Greek literacy for that matter) to students of Biblical Greek. So I really hope this topic gets more attention in the future. But this is a nice scratch of the surface :)
I must say…. I’m a little surprised to have caused so much controversy here. But I’m delighted to field your questions as best I can. The heart of my statement at 12:54 was aimed specifically at challenging Christians (and really, I’m challenging myself here as well) to examine ourselves to make sure our hearts are in the right place. What is our purpose for learning Greek? To get closer to God’s word and have a more intimate walk with Him through a more intimate understanding of the New Testament text? Or are we just puffed up by this knowledge and looking down on others? The heart of this statement comes from 1 Corinthians 8:1: “πάντες γνῶσιν ἔχομεν. ἡ γνῶσις φυσιοῖ, ἡ δὲ ἀγάπη οἰκοδομεῖ.” The question that I was attempting to address around 15:05 was this: If a Christian is interested in branching out into other Greek literature to expand his or her perspective, then which ancient authors would be especially worthwhile to read? Listening back through the video, I now see that wasn’t exactly what Darryl asked. But that’s the question I was attempting to answer. 😊 The authors that I picked (really, off the top of my head) either provide a useful insight into the pagan worldview and/or philosophy (i.e. Plato, Homer, etc…), or provide addition context around the events and ideas presented in the New Testament (Josephus & Philo). But to address your point, I largely agree. If a someone with only a Biblical Greek background wanted to get into classical Greek texts to broaden their 'register' as you say, they still have some additional work to get there. But we should not discount that what this person has already learned is still applicable. My recommendation to such a person would be to: 1.) Pick up a copy of Athenaze, including the Italian version. 2.) Read through the stories in Athenaze, picking up necessary vocabulary as you go, and reviewing the grammar to cement concepts and fill in any gaps or holes. 3.) Pick up a relatively easy classical Greek text and work through that as a bridge to getting into harder material. I suppose Xenophon’s Anabasis would be the obvious answer here…. The text isn’t overly difficult and it’s a fun read. But for the Christian wanting to broaden his or her cultural or philosophical perspective, I’m not sure Anabasis adds very much. Perhaps instead we could look at an easy and relatively short dialog from Plato. Apology might not be too bad. For what it’s worth, Athenaze was my textbook when first starting out with Classical Greek , and we worked all the way through both books. The stories in Athenaze, though made up, are outstanding. And they give the student an excellent window into the world of 5th century B.C. Athens. However, as a student, I struggled with Athenaze’s piecemeal, almost haphazard introduction of grammar concepts in the book. Yes, it’s thorough. But as a student, I felt it was disorganized, and I struggled to see the grammatical forest through all of the individual trees. Some years later, I ended up helping a student through Mounce’s Basics of Biblical Greek. I was stunned at how organized, clear, and concise the grammar presentation was in Mounce’s textbook. Yes it’s true: There are some grammar concepts that Mounce either doesn’t cover, or doesn’t cover as adequately as I think he should. But in my view, as a starting grammar for a beginning Greek student, Classical Greek has no equal to this textbook. And yes, I would love to see Darryl do a review of Athenaze. Anyway, I hope this helps to clarify my comments. Blessings to you!
@@ksnunema Thanks for the helpful clarification. To be fair, since the agenda of the interview was to demonstrate why people do not NEED Classical Greek to learn Biblical Greek (as opposed to weighing the pros and cons) it skewed the conversation towards a negative/critical outlook on Classical Greek. I honestly don’t think learning Classical or Homeric Greek should incline anyone to look down on others or to “imagine that they know something” (per 1 Cor 8:1-2). Again, one could invoke that verse to cast aspersions on all kinds of intellectual endeavors, including learning Biblical Greek. I think there’s a lot of be said for simply fostering a love of knowledge. And, personally, I find that the more Greek I learn, the clearer it is how much left there is to learn. I can sympathize with your criticisms of Athenaze. My recommendation for students using Athenaze is to complete ALL of the workbooks (the English & Italian workbooks have different exercises), along with the Itallian “Quaderno” volumes and the additional reading material in the Ἐφόδιον volumes. I didn’t move on to the next chapter until I’d finished corresponding workbook exercises for a given chapter. In terms of Plato, Beetham’s “Learning Greek with Plato” is helpful, along with Major & Roberts' “Plato, A Transitional Reader”. Shelmerdine’s “Introduction to Greek” is a decent primer for Attic. And Pharr’s “Homeric Greek” is essential for Homer, along with O'Neil & Winters' "Homer, A Transitional Reader".
(Mounce? I’ll pretend I didn’t come upon any of that.) Perhaps the most popular textbook of Attic Greek at universities, well suited for independent study, is: _From Alpha to Omega: A Beginning Course in Classical Greek._ By Anne H. Groton. 4th ed. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2013. Helpful companion books are: _From Alpha to Omega: Ancillary Exercises._ By Jon Bruss. 2nd ed. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2013. _Forty-Six Stories in Classical Greek._ Edited by Anne H. Groton and James M. May. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2014. (Additional readings are matched to lessons from the textbook.) Groton’s is a traditional and very detailed approach. She has become something of the Greek Wheelock, so famous for learning Latin. For historical and cultural background, the following are standard introductions: Pomeroy, Sarah B., et al. _Ancient Greece: A Political, Social, and Cultural History._ 4th ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 2018. Boatwright, Mary T., et al. _The Romans: From Village to Empire; A History of Rome from Earliest Times to the End of the Western Empire._ 2nd ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 2012. Some prose translation is necessary to solidify and develop this knowledge and these skills, once acquired. The usual text is Plato’s _Apology._ I recommend the following: _Plato's “Apology of Socrates”: A Commentary._ Edited by Paul Allen Miller and Charles Platter. Oklahoma Series in Classical Culture 36. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press, 2010. (Greek text with substantial vocabulary and commentary.) _Plato and Xenophon: Apologies of Socrates._ Edited by Nicholas Denyer. Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2019. (Greek text with commentary.) Alternatively, the more intrepid may prefer to read Plato’s _Symposium,_ one of the towering masterpieces of world literature and philosophy, and certainly highly influential within Christianity. I recommend the following texts: _Plato's “Symposium”: Greek Text with Facing Vocabulary and Commentary._ Edited by Geoffrey Steadman. Self-published, 2009. Last revised September 2014. (While not the standard text used, the facing vocabulary renders it most useful for the beginning or independent student.) _Plato: “Symposium.”_ Edited by Kenneth Dover. Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1980. (For additional and deeper commentary. This is the usual commentary used, but without vocabulary.) I recommend using the following translation aids for use after the introductory textbook and companion books: _An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon._ New York: Oxford University Press, 1889. (This is the Greek lexicon primarily used by undergraduate classics students in their daily coursework. It also works for the NT. The LSJ may be consulted for more depth, variously available online.) _Greek Grammar._ Edited by Herbert Weir Smyth. Revised by Gordon M. Messing. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1956. (This is the standard grammar in English.) _The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek._ Edited by Evert van Emde Boas, Albert Rijksbaron, Luuk Huitink, and Mathieu de Bakker. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2019. (An important update.) _All the Greek Verbs._ By N. Marinone. New York: Bloomsbury Academic, 2011. (Contains the vast majority of verb forms one might find oneself puzzling over in the middle of the night, clearly identified in alphabetical order. Very helpful to beginning students.) Remarkably helpful and handy, including for the NT, is Langenscheidt’s pocket “Classical Greek” dictionary, if you can find a copy. Be sure to avoid their Modern Greek dictionary. (Oxford publishes a roughly analogous pocket dictionary, less sturdily bound.) For those wishing to read classical authors further, generally reliable text-with-commentary series include the Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics, the Cambridge Classical Texts and Commentaries, and the Oklahoma Series in Classical Culture. Bristol Classical Press publishes an extensive Greek Texts series (along with a Latin Texts one) with commentary. Oxford University Press also publishes two excellent series: outstanding and authoritative editions with commentary on Aristophanes in their Clarendon Paperbacks series; and their text-with-commentary (and at least sometimes facing translation) series on an eclectic assortment of authors and works, Aris and Phillips Classical Texts. Geoffrey Steadman, cited above, provides editions of a number of classic works, with facing vocabulary and commentary.
@@choreologychannel I apologize for the slow reply. Thank you for the very helpful suggestions. I’m already familiar with Pharr. This is the textbook that we used when reading through Book 1 of the Illiad. I’ve also come across “Plato, a Transitional Reader”, and you’re right - that would be a very good text to use. I’m unfamiliar with “Learning Greek with Plato”. I’ll check it out. For what it’s worth, I’m definitely not anti-classical Greek. My Greek New Testament is littered with hand-written quotations from Plato and other classical writers… even from the Illiad and Odyssey. The main question that I’m trying to explore is…. For the Christian who is primarily interested in Greek for the purposes of reading the New Testament, where do you start? It seems to me that the Biblical Greek texts are (for the most part) fairly straightforward and accessible, and there are very good Greek grammars for Biblical Greek. So it makes sense to start there, and then begin to branch out into other areas. I say this with no particular axe to grind. I started with Classical Greek first. That’s my background, and I love ancient Greek literature, history, and culture. Further, a background in classical Greek certainly offers the tools necessary to tackle Biblical Greek as well, with some very minor adjustments. However, I believe it can work the other way too. Darryl has some great students in his program who have some excellent ability and background, who started with Biblical Greek.
@@Steve-hu9gw Thank you for your suggestions as well. This is an excellent selection of texts. I have many of these books, but not all. And of course, Smyth is an absolute must for any classicist. :) You must run in different circles than I do. Although I’ve heard of From Alpha to Omega, I had no idea it was in the running for the top spot. Almost everyone I deal with these days increasingly promotes Athenaze, especially coupled with the Italian version, as a kind of intuitive, almost- living-language approach to learning Greek. I can’t say that I entirely agree. However, I understand why they land there. From Alpha to Omega is definitely a big step up from Athenaze in terms of organized grammar presentation. What it lacks is a lot of reading exercises, which is where Athenaze's strength lies. But perhaps From Alpha to Omega has these in the exercise book, which I don’t have.
I have learned to read and understand basic classical Greek before learning koine Greek because I like the method for studying by myself. It is the Assimil method. In this method, I read the text, try to understand, and repeat the sentence one by one until I don’t make mistake. As revision, I try to translate the translation again into classical Greek. So I get my basic knowledge of Greek. So I have learn a little bit about the Philosophie, the culture and word’s formation. This method is not available for English Speakers. I use the French version.
That's an interesting comment. I'm trying to figure out which way to go before driving in. have been leaning towards studying attic first, but one question I have is whether or not I really needed to become significantly proficient at attic for it to be of any real help to me in learning koine. I don't mind putting in significant time and work, but I sort of had this idea in my head that maybe I could learn attic up to maybe just a basic proficiency and then move on the koine. That sounds like what you did, right? In other words I'm not really interested in spending several years mastering attic before I jump into koine (but neither am I looking to put in low effort and take a shortcut). Am I thinking right on this?
I am not even a religious person, I have never read the bible. I started learning Modern Greek more recently and learned the basic grammar, etc. I discovered _Koine Greek_ in the past month through research and discovered the books _'Beginning with New Testament Greek'_ and _'Going Deeper with New Testament Greek'_ and so I got both of them. For me, there is no better way, in my opinion, to learn a type of Ancient Greek language as well as to decipher something like the bible than to use this method and learning this beautiful language. I actually look forward to it and I hope to learn a lot. It sounds to me from some comments that Classical Greek isn't that far off from Koine. I'm starting with Koine and going to invest a lot of time into it. I have wondered though whether this may also help me with learning Modern Greek. I do comprehend though, Modern Greek will be more simplified with grammar and no doubt many words have been omitted, a bit like the difference between Old English and the English we speak today. Thanks for this video, very insightful.
Hi, i am a beginner in koine greek. I have three questions: 1. Which pronunciation do you use for koine greek? 2. When should there be breathing marks? I have looked for an answer to this question but I haven't found an answer yet. And what decided if it should be a smooth or rough breathing mark? 3. What should i learn after the alphabet, vowels, dophtongs, accents and breath marks? Am i ready to start learning words after learning that or is there anything more that i have to learn first?
Hello Viktor. As for pronunciation, there are basically 3 options: Erasmian Pronunciation, Modern Greek pronunciation, or some sort of Reconstructed pronunciation. There are some factors that may play into which pronunciation system that you chose, and there are people out there who will argue passionately about which pronunciation system is the best. However, you can be successful regardless of which pronunciation system you chose. As for how you should proceed..... It's hard to learn Greek as a solitary student, although certainly possible if you are disciplined and you have a good textbook. But it's much easier to have a community. If you have the means, I recommend Biblical Mastery Academy, which is, by far, the best program I've found for Biblical Greek. www.biblicalmastery.academy/. If you don't have the means for that, at very least get yourself a good Greek grammar textbook + workbook and work your way through that. I can recommend some options if you are interested.
I'm a nerd..an absolute nerd. This is the greatest channel on RUclips. And your work is absolutely opening the Word of God before/in spite of the world.
If your goal is ultimately to read either Josephus or Philo,, or any other of the late ancient historians and philosophers, then you need to learn Attic Greek, because these writers are extremely Attic in their grammar and syntax. If one plans on reading mostly the New Testament, if there is extra time, I would start learning either Hebrew or patristic Greek.
@@stevenv6463 In general, Josephus and Philo are much more difficult. I think one should read a couple Plato dialogs before taking on Philo. There are, however, patristic writers that are more advanced.
@@stevenv6463 more Attic, much more optative mood, more difficult vocabulary, harder syntax, more ellipsis, etc. Remember that Philo and Josephus were attempting to prove their writing was every bit as eloquent as the revered classical Greek authors.
Greek has been in existence, in some form or another, for millennia. I studied Koinē first, then Dhemotikē, then Attikē. I don’t see that order matters except with regard to the need at the moment.
Classical Greek has duals, which disappeared by the time of the NT, and even Euclid AFAIK did not use them. He wrote "δυσιν ορθιαις ισαι εισιν"; in classical Greek, every word would be different, "δυοιν ορθιαιν ισα εστον" or something like that. A few weeks ago, I met someone with a quote from Heraclitus tattooed on her arm and astonished her by reading it. In his dialect, "we are" is "ειμεν"; by the first century, it had changed to "εσμεν".
At university I got to attend a party at a sorority and while standing in their main hall by a couple of friends with a drink in my hand I noticed the sorority motto on the wall -- written in Greek of course -- and I read it and then translated it out loud. I got pounced on by a half dozen sorority gals, one exclaiming, "How do you know our motto? That's secret!" I stared at her for a couple of seconds and then laughed and said, "If it's secret, why is it written on your wall?" "But it's in Greek!!" she practically screeched. I shook my head and told her, "When fraternities and sororities first started every member could read Greek. Those mottoes weren't meant to be secret, they were intended to be read by scholars." That night before I made it out of there a dozen fraternity guys surrounded me and asked if I could translate all the other sorority mottos. So over the next couple of weeks guys intercepted me with what they'd copied from sorority hall walls. I don't know if they got all of them, but they got enough that it seemed that every sorority gal on campus knew who I was and hated on me. I just told them every time, "If it's supposed to be secret, don't write it on your wall".
Very good stuff here. What about teaching Greek to younger students? My kids have always been required to learn Latin in various classical schools (both secular and Christian). But it always seems that they should have worked on Greek first and then moved on to Latin if they were so inclined. Any thoughts/resources?
Latin is closer to modern European languages (except maybe Greek) and uses the same alphabet, also it introduces archaic grammar structures in a softer way, that's why kids should start there. An adult with an Anglo-Saxon/Germanic background can dive straight into Greek though.
It's good to remember that Jesus's ministry was mainly to simple country and village people so that the four accounts of that are not complex lectures requiring a deep understanding of the original language. All present day versions will convey his message of God's Kingdom Come (Matt6.9)and the requirement of faith in that promise, in him and his sacrifice and in God who made that all possible. John 3.16, John17.3
The most common words in Attic, don't 100% overlap with the most common words in Koine Greek. There are also subtle differences between the meaning of some words as they appear in the Greek New Testament compared to the earlier Attic era writings. Neither of these are huge hurdles, but it does matter. It seems to me that learning the most common words in Koine first is the most valuable in terms of time commitment. But then later on, learning the differences that pop up in attic is extremely beneficial.
Gen 11:1 Zep 3:9 For deeper .understanding, search out the Etym , grammar and synatax Words but above this Ask Him and He will shew Jn 16:13 you will know Jn 8:32 Jn 17:17
I am practicing my Koine Greek skills so I wrote a bunch of texts in Koine Greek and I hope that you can translate it: 1. Και εν τοις ουρανοις, εγω ειδον τους αγγελους και τους αγιους του Θεου, και οι αγιοι του Θεου παρακαλουσιν τω Θεω, λεγουσιν, "Ω Θεε! Ω Θεε! Ω Θεε! Ακουε ημας και αποστελλε οργην και απωλειαν επι του κοσμου!". Τοτε, εγω ειδον τον Θεον, και αυτος ην επι του θρονου των ουρανων, και ο θρονος των ουρανων ην επι του προσοπου της γης. 2. Γαρ καθως ο αστηρ του Τιαματ απωλεσεν την πολιν την Ιτομορι και διεχωρισεν τον Τακι απο της Μιτσουα, αμαρτια απωλεσεν φυσιν ανθρωπων και διεχωρισεν ανθρωπους απο του Θεου, και καθως οινος στυματος συνεζευξεν παλιν τον Τακι μετα της Μιτσουα, οινος διαθηκης συνεζευξεν παλιν ανθρωπους μετα του Θεου. 3. Γαρ απ αρχης κρονου, απεκαλυφθη και εφανερωθη υπαρξις του Θεου προς ανθρωπους δια κτισεως Αυτου. Ουν, υμεις αναπολογητοι, οι ανθρωποι!
Fascinating and interesting topic but I didn't find the discussion to be that persuasive or even conclusive. I am really interested in Koine Greek for the New Testament and Septuagint. My feeling is that if you were learning Attic Greek you'd certainl find the New Testament approachable and comprehensible. I don't now that for certain but I think if you are fluent in reading the New Testamet (and I mean really fluent) you'd be able to start to approach easier forms of Attic. (I note your intreviewee suggests you can go strainght from Koine New Testament to reading Plato without further preparation! Now that suggests to me you can use one to read the other. My interests are really Koine (Septuagint and NT) and Homer (at some stage) so we'll see. PS So far as I understood I thought Josephus and Philo wrote in Koine - am I wrong? I really think of Koine and Attic as two dialests of Ancient Greek, along with Homeric, which is a different dialect again. If you read modern English you can read Shakespeare, even though there are differences. You can go further back. A modern English reader can read Chaucer and Wycliffe. Whether Koine is enough for modern Greek is another matter entirely....
We focus learning Greek for the purpose of reading the Greek New Testament and Septuagint first and also the Apostolic Fathers. There are lots of Koine texts available, both religious and non-religious texts, including Philo and Josephus, but many more. Marcus Aurelius even wrote his Meditations in Greek!
Father Stephen De Young says that there is no such thing as “Koine Greek” only Biblical Greek which is essentially, Greek written by people with a Hebrew or Aramaic background. What do you think about this claim? Also, my criticism of the claim that studying Attic Greek is like studying Elizabethan English or old English is this, English has been profoundly influenced by the Franks, and there is much more borrowed vocabulary and syntax in English than there is in Greek. English hasn’t been a very stable language compared to others.
@@peterfritz6030 I do now reading with the use of an application, with English translation. I work a pair of lines, than reread it in the app, then reread it in a book, than reread it with some prior lines, then I take some more. I can like this read and understand five pages already. It's amazing!
D. A. Carson in his book “Exegetical Fallacies” points out that relying upon Classical Greek word roots and meanings should not be relied upon to interpret or translate Koine Greek.
Utter nonsense. I got my degree in classics before my degree in biblical studies. I have yet to crack open a grammar of “biblical Greek” and hardly ever look at BDAG. None of it prevented me from translating circles around my colleagues and classmates in biblical studies, and in a tiny fraction of the time. That’s the simple truth of the matter. The only reason to go via and stick with Koine is a desire to not spend time on anything but the NT. That’s fine, but you will have a harder time at translation than you otherwise would have, until you’ve essentially memorized all the text. So it’s a trade-off. I knew a very famous NT scholar who would make all his advisees take the first two years of Greek offered in the classics department no matter how much Koine they had already had. They always found it to be a sort of boot camp, even in first-year Attic, a phenomenon that always amazed me. Shouldn’t they have had a considerable advantage, having already learned some basics? Btw, no one who already has Attic is made to take any introduction to Koine or “biblical” Greek in biblical studies departments. No one even whispered any such thing within earshot of me.
@@Steve-hu9gw thanks for the reply, Steve. I was just commenting on Carson’s comment. I personally wouldn’t know if Attic Greek helps understand Koine. I’m only interested in NT Greek studies.
@@drbill-r9f, his comment is ludicrous. To pretend that the words used in the NT suddenly materialized there, ignoring everything the LSJ has to say about their broader and often more basic and fundamental contexts, is to violently rip those words out of the language in which they exist and have their meaning.
Better or worse to learn Greek of different eras is not the question i think. Archaik Greek Homeric Greek Ancient Greek Ionian GREEK Macedonian Greek Koine Greek Biblical Greek Byzantine Greek Katharevousa Greek Nowadays Greek ...... They are all Greek. They are the branches of the same Greek language tree, evolving through the centuries. Better or worse to learn first? Idk😐 :
A little. A bit like knowing modern English prepares you to read Shakespeare or Chaucer, but there is perhaps more distance between Koine and modern Greek. Thanks for asking!
Not just a little bit, but absolutely knowing modern Greek helps with koine. I am semi fluent in Modern Greek and I can pick up a koine NT and understand the majority of it and I have never studied any ancient Greek. Obviously I plan on studying ancient one day (probably will start with Homeric) but knowing MG will definitely suffice for having a great foundation of understanding of NT Greek. Plus you can actually talk to people, which is the main objective of learning a language.
@@bma not a little but easy one reading modern greek csn understand koine of the New testament actually in the greek orthodox church koine greek is used world wide not modern greek 2000 years now
Not only it helps, but if you know modern Greek, but to know them well, you can read almost full the text of New Testament. It's just a matter of some practice. Don't listen what different peaple say on yt, that they are supposed "experts"
I speak modern Greek and can understand a lot from Koine without much practice,so why not learn modern?😅. Of course there are words that I don't know but overall i can understand the meaning
Kindly launch right into the answer to the clickbait question; do not repeat the question (we already saw it), nor say "let's get into it." Just GET INTO IT. por favor, señor.
Acts 2:6-8 .... every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans 1 Jn 2:27 ... ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, Jn 16:13 Zep 3:9
Why do you insist so much on these artificial differencies ? It is the same language. If a well prepared student reads and understands Plato, the New Testament and saint Basil is not because he studied two different dialects. He knows very well Greek. The differencies are natural, considering the time span.
None! I'm Greek, and at least, if one wants to learn only Koine to read New Testament from the original, the ABSOLUTE hands down best, is to learn one well modern Greek first. If one knows WELL modern Greek (and with some practice) one can read New testament texts 90/100% (at worst case around 80%. With practice this becomes better and better). And immediately.. starts from around 30%, to up 90/100% more ancient Greek (it depends from the era and the practice one will do). I personally can read new testament from the original with NO lesson on Koine Greek 95/100% and more ancient Greek with NO lesson on ancient Greek ever (only some few on school that i dont remember now them at all) around 50% the Homeric Greek and from 60% to 90/100% the rest era, it depends from the text. The modern Greek is much closer as language to Koine Greek than the more ancient Greek to Koine. Modern Greek is as good, beautiful and rich language as both Koine and ancient. Dont underestimate it from some "antiqophily" prejudices (and forget all the pronunciation bs, it is not needed, and it perplexes things with no reason. Learn the modern Greek and that is the best )
A person told me the word "Worship" or Greek words that stands for "Worship" does not exist in Greek. Especially in these verses Matthew 2:1-2 and Matthew 2:11, John chapter 9 verses 17, 24, 31, 35-38. Matthew 13:33, Matthew 28:9, Biblical Greek Bible he said, nowhere does it say Jesus was Worshiped. I told him. I maybe wrong I said in English and the Greek the English word used "Worship" is the meaning of the Greek used in the Greek written Bible. He said No where in the Greek Bible reads Jesus was Worshiped. Does anybody here know the answer and evidence to back up that answer. Was Jesus Worship written in the Greek Bible scriptures?
You don’t need to learn Greek. The Bible was already translated perfectly into English. It’s called the King James. The Bible is perfect. We have it translated perfectly into English already. Stop looking for a translation that reads how you want. Stop “going back to the Greek”. Just read The Bible (King James) and believe every word of it.
Neither. The Greek of the New Testament found in the oldest version of the text is "translation Greek". That is, it does not follow the proper grammar or gender rules for nouns. Scholars claim this is something called "koine greek". Nonsense. The Greek translators wanted to preserve the original text word for word as they translated in order to not add or take away anything from the Word of God as the Scripture warns. And I have yet to have an expert scholar explain exactly why the Septuagint Greek is exactly the same as New Testament Greek. One is known to be a translation and the other..... Well?
Hi, I really liked the video. However I disagree on a prime part. As europeans or Americans with european background. like both of you authors, although we are christians we are europeans! So we probably should think first in a greco-roman point of view. after all, we dont follow the Old Testament to the letter nor the new one. so why should we over compare our selves with the jews. after all jews hate Jesus. they killed him. Ponsus pilotus the roman consul washed his hands o Jesus case and who he gave permission to terminate Jesus? the pharisees(elite jews). so I feel like as descendants of the roman and greek empires and other tribes from Europe. shouldn't we see it through a traditional christian background instead of calling our selves judaeo christian we probably should call ourselves euro-christian as the jews terminated Jesus. so associating with them doesn't seem ideal. this is just a discussion commentary.
The God of the Christians is the God of Israel, the God of the covenants and the God of the Jewish patriarchs and prophets. Jesus was a Jew. He confirmed the message of the prophets and counted the “old” testament, the Jewish Tanak, as inspired, unbreakable scripture, as did his disciples,the first Christians, who were also Jews. All but 1 of the authors of the New Testament (Luke) were Jews. When Paul, a Jewish Pharisee who authored most of the NT, was put on trial he declared that he was on trial “for the hope of Israel” (Jesus the promised Messiah). Before it was called Christianity it was called “the Way” and was simply considered a sect of Judaism that had embraced the promised Jewish Messiah. The first Christians even had to decide whether non Jews could even come to faith in their Messiah without becoming Jews. That is a major theme in the book of Acts. It wasn’t until Gentile Christians began to multiply and Christianity spread across the Roman Empire and after the Jews were scattered after the destruction of the temple in 70ad that Christianity started to be considered something separate from Judaism. Then the debate became whether Jews could become Christians! This is also when you began to see a growing hatred of Jews in the church and in the writings of the church fathers, which continued off and on for centuries. This is what you refer to as the “traditional Christian background”. But antisemitic theology and a predominantly Gentile church do not change the fact that what we call Christianity is simply the acceptance of the God of Israel and the entering into the eternal covenant promised to Israel, revealed and established in the person and work of Israel’s Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth. And when he returns he will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, as promised in the both the Hebrew Bible and the epistles of the New Testament. You will want to be identified with the Jews in that day! This doesn’t discount our European cultural inheritance, but our faith and worldview are/should be fundamentally Hebraic, not Greek. Give Romans chapters 9-11 a close reading
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Need? Of course not. Extremely beneficial to ease and speed of translation and understanding the broader meanings of words used in the NT? Absolutely and without question.
I got my degree in classics before my degree in biblical studies. I have yet to crack open a grammar of “biblical Greek” and hardly ever look at BDAG. None of it prevented me from translating circles around my colleagues and classmates in biblical studies, and in a tiny fraction of the time. That’s the simple truth of the matter. The only reason to go via and stick with Koine is a desire to not spend time on anything but the NT. That’s fine, but you will have a harder time at translation than you otherwise would have, until you’ve essentially memorized all the text. So it’s a trade-off.
I knew a very famous NT scholar who would make all his advisees take the first two years of Greek offered in the classics department no matter how much Koine they had already had. They always found it to be a sort of boot camp, even in first-year Attic, a phenomenon that always amazed me. Shouldn’t they have had a considerable advantage, having already learned some basics?
Btw, no one who already has Attic is made to take any introduction to Koine or “biblical” Greek in biblical studies departments. No one even whispered any such thing within earshot of me. Nor should they have.
I know not everyone is trying to be a top-notch scholar or wishes to do more than just get a little closer to the biblical text. That’s all perfectly fine, as long as you accept and understand what you will and won’t be getting. But there’s no point in pretending Attic and a classical approach don’t offer extensive benefits, insights, and added expertise. After all, the world’s greatest experts in ancient Greek are classicists, not NT scholars. Everyone in academia knows that, including NT scholars.
What NT scholars are world experts on is all the other stuff: the specifically early-Christian social, cultural, literary, textual, and theological background, for the most part. Classicists will be better on the generally classical and some of the social part, including Greek and Latin. Scholars of the Ancient Near East, the Hebrew Bible, and ancient Jewish studies will understand much of the Jewish part and its background (including Hebrew and Aramaic) better. And historians of early-Church history and scholars of Medieval studies will understand patristics and a good chunk of early theology better. NT scholars do exist at a rather idiosyncratic intersection of multiple disciplines, being world experts only in that intersection, not so much in any of the individual intersecting bits. Something very important to keep in mind when interacting with biblical studies and its various productions and tools.
Kind of similar to Modern Greek speakers and the NT as with classicists and the NT. I speak modern Greek fluently, and learning Koine Greek was not difficult at all. I was reading entire books of the NT just with my knowledge of modern Greek having never studied ancient Greek before.
“Puffed up”?! I found learning Attic Greek to be a very humbling experience!
Lol.
At the University of Evansville, they teach a blend using Athenaze as a textbook.
I learned attic greek at seminary using Athenazae book 1 and 2 with corresponding workbooks.
I then used Mounce's BBG system for Koine later at Biblical College.
It definitely helps.
If you learn attic you are going to understand a lot of Koine, and if you learn koine you will understand a lot of attic. It's the same language with a small amount of differences. I started with Athenaze in the Italian version (the best textbook out there) and then moved to Biblingo. What I learned with Athenaze is being very helpful, but I love the tons of materials and good grammar for Biblical greek learning: quite systematic.
Where can I find Athenaze in the Italian version ?
I am just started to learn Greek in order to know the Word of God in the deepest possible way brothet !!
Praise the Lord !!
What I know is that I started out Greek reading Xenophon and others, followed with readings from the centuries counting down towards Christ, and only looked at Koine when we got to the first century A.D., and when I and classmates got to a school where other students had spent the same amount of time in just Koine, we breezed through everything in the New Testament while they were still struggling with everything but John and Mark. But the real advantage was that we'd read gobs of Greek before we tackled the New Testament and thus had our minds formed around the Greek itself without any prejudices from knowing what an English translation said. Over and over in the later classes the ones who'd started with Koine delivered translations that were word for word from the KJV or RSV or whatever else they'd grown up with.
So the biggest advantage of starting with older Greek was that we learned to treat it as an actual different language and not like it was some sort of code that made it English in disguise. We'd also learned to just read the Greek in the order the words were written down when most of the students who'd started with Koine used the "search and assemble" method of separating the phrases and then putting them into English word order in order to translate; most of them couldn't just sit and read the Greek, they had to re-arrange it into an English structure. IMO they missed significant meaning because they weren't getting the sentence structure as the author built it. They also had real trouble when encountering Paul's run-on sentences of eighty or a hundred or more words, especially when we started diagramming the sentences; the "search and assemble" approach seemed to inoculate them against taking the words as they came and seeing the structure.
I get annoyed still with videos that use the "search and assemble" method because it inherently fails to tackle the meaning involved in the choice of word and clause order of the author. One of my favorite peeves is when a definite article is separated from the corresponding noun by multiple words and they just go in search of the word it belongs to as though the author was being sloppy and they needed to fix it. But doing it that way isn't actually reading Greek, it's dissecting the Greek and re-assembling to make it speak English.
Wow, this post is insightful. Thanks!
Technical writing courses teach us to write in short sentences with simple ideas that we then use other short sentences to synthesize the ideas together.
So when an author throws 80+ words in a sentence without any sort of pause (no periods, no commas, no middle dots) it's just a bit overwhelming. It very much does come across as the author being reckless/clumsy.
12:54 - I don’t understand why Classical Greek literacy is (seemingly negatively) characterized as “…approaching (Greek) from ‘head knowledge’ and going down this path so we can be ‘puffed up’.”
That sounds like how a lot of people characterize students of Biblical Greek who don’t simply rely on translations.
Hellenistic (Koiné) Greek tend to be on a spectrum of formality between so-called “low” and “high” Greek (register). Some Biblical authors are less formal than others who “atticize” more often. This makes “Koiné” somewhat of a moving target. Thus Classical Greek literacy (on some level) helps students assess why various authors (and later scribes) make different choices between less formal and more formal language. The fact of the matter is, the Biblical authors were ALL proficient in Classical Greek (to some extent) as the standard literary form of the language taught in schools.
So I think it’s less a question of whether students of Biblical Greek “NEED” Classical Greek, per se. Obviously, they don’t NEED it when there are sufficient resources for Biblical Greek. But they ignore it at their own peril if they really want to get a handle on the variety styles and registers found throughout the Greek Bible (NT and LXX). Classical Greek is useful far beyond developing an understanding the Greco-Roman world view.
15:05 - The recommendation for books to study Attic Greek: Plato, Josephus, Philo and Homer. Really? That was an odd response from someone who claims to be a tutor of Attic Greek. I was really hoping for an honorable mention of the Athenaze series (especially the Italian edition). If the recommendation is to approach Plato and even Homer (!) with nothing more than a foundation in Biblical Greek, that’s a recipe for frustration.
In fact, it would be extremely satisfying if Mr. Burling would do a review of the Athenaze series (including the workbooks). There doesn’t seem to be a fair assessment here of the potential value of Classical Greek literacy (or Homeric Greek literacy for that matter) to students of Biblical Greek. So I really hope this topic gets more attention in the future. But this is a nice scratch of the surface :)
I must say…. I’m a little surprised to have caused so much controversy here. But I’m delighted to field your questions as best I can.
The heart of my statement at 12:54 was aimed specifically at challenging Christians (and really, I’m challenging myself here as well) to examine ourselves to make sure our hearts are in the right place. What is our purpose for learning Greek? To get closer to God’s word and have a more intimate walk with Him through a more intimate understanding of the New Testament text? Or are we just puffed up by this knowledge and looking down on others? The heart of this statement comes from 1 Corinthians 8:1: “πάντες γνῶσιν ἔχομεν. ἡ γνῶσις φυσιοῖ, ἡ δὲ ἀγάπη οἰκοδομεῖ.”
The question that I was attempting to address around 15:05 was this: If a Christian is interested in branching out into other Greek literature to expand his or her perspective, then which ancient authors would be especially worthwhile to read? Listening back through the video, I now see that wasn’t exactly what Darryl asked. But that’s the question I was attempting to answer. 😊 The authors that I picked (really, off the top of my head) either provide a useful insight into the pagan worldview and/or philosophy (i.e. Plato, Homer, etc…), or provide addition context around the events and ideas presented in the New Testament (Josephus & Philo).
But to address your point, I largely agree. If a someone with only a Biblical Greek background wanted to get into classical Greek texts to broaden their 'register' as you say, they still have some additional work to get there. But we should not discount that what this person has already learned is still applicable. My recommendation to such a person would be to:
1.) Pick up a copy of Athenaze, including the Italian version.
2.) Read through the stories in Athenaze, picking up necessary vocabulary as you go, and reviewing the grammar to cement concepts and fill in any gaps or holes.
3.) Pick up a relatively easy classical Greek text and work through that as a bridge to getting into harder material. I suppose Xenophon’s Anabasis would be the obvious answer here…. The text isn’t overly difficult and it’s a fun read. But for the Christian wanting to broaden his or her cultural or philosophical perspective, I’m not sure Anabasis adds very much. Perhaps instead we could look at an easy and relatively short dialog from Plato. Apology might not be too bad.
For what it’s worth, Athenaze was my textbook when first starting out with Classical Greek , and we worked all the way through both books. The stories in Athenaze, though made up, are outstanding. And they give the student an excellent window into the world of 5th century B.C. Athens. However, as a student, I struggled with Athenaze’s piecemeal, almost haphazard introduction of grammar concepts in the book. Yes, it’s thorough. But as a student, I felt it was disorganized, and I struggled to see the grammatical forest through all of the individual trees. Some years later, I ended up helping a student through Mounce’s Basics of Biblical Greek. I was stunned at how organized, clear, and concise the grammar presentation was in Mounce’s textbook. Yes it’s true: There are some grammar concepts that Mounce either doesn’t cover, or doesn’t cover as adequately as I think he should. But in my view, as a starting grammar for a beginning Greek student, Classical Greek has no equal to this textbook.
And yes, I would love to see Darryl do a review of Athenaze.
Anyway, I hope this helps to clarify my comments. Blessings to you!
@@ksnunema Thanks for the helpful clarification. To be fair, since the agenda of the interview was to demonstrate why people do not NEED Classical Greek to learn Biblical Greek (as opposed to weighing the pros and cons) it skewed the conversation towards a negative/critical outlook on Classical Greek.
I honestly don’t think learning Classical or Homeric Greek should incline anyone to look down on others or to “imagine that they know something” (per 1 Cor 8:1-2). Again, one could invoke that verse to cast aspersions on all kinds of intellectual endeavors, including learning Biblical Greek. I think there’s a lot of be said for simply fostering a love of knowledge. And, personally, I find that the more Greek I learn, the clearer it is how much left there is to learn.
I can sympathize with your criticisms of Athenaze. My recommendation for students using Athenaze is to complete ALL of the workbooks (the English & Italian workbooks have different exercises), along with the Itallian “Quaderno” volumes and the additional reading material in the Ἐφόδιον volumes. I didn’t move on to the next chapter until I’d finished corresponding workbook exercises for a given chapter.
In terms of Plato, Beetham’s “Learning Greek with Plato” is helpful, along with Major & Roberts' “Plato, A Transitional Reader”. Shelmerdine’s “Introduction to Greek” is a decent primer for Attic. And Pharr’s “Homeric Greek” is essential for Homer, along with O'Neil & Winters' "Homer, A Transitional Reader".
(Mounce? I’ll pretend I didn’t come upon any of that.)
Perhaps the most popular textbook of Attic Greek at universities, well suited for independent study, is:
_From Alpha to Omega: A Beginning Course in Classical Greek._ By Anne H. Groton. 4th ed. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2013.
Helpful companion books are:
_From Alpha to Omega: Ancillary Exercises._ By Jon Bruss. 2nd ed. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2013.
_Forty-Six Stories in Classical Greek._ Edited by Anne H. Groton and James M. May. Newburyport, MA: Focus, 2014. (Additional readings are matched to lessons from the textbook.)
Groton’s is a traditional and very detailed approach. She has become something of the Greek Wheelock, so famous for learning Latin.
For historical and cultural background, the following are standard introductions:
Pomeroy, Sarah B., et al. _Ancient Greece: A Political, Social, and Cultural History._ 4th ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 2018.
Boatwright, Mary T., et al. _The Romans: From Village to Empire; A History of Rome from Earliest Times to the End of the Western Empire._ 2nd ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 2012.
Some prose translation is necessary to solidify and develop this knowledge and these skills, once acquired. The usual text is Plato’s _Apology._ I recommend the following:
_Plato's “Apology of Socrates”: A Commentary._ Edited by Paul Allen Miller and Charles Platter. Oklahoma Series in Classical Culture 36. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press, 2010. (Greek text with substantial vocabulary and commentary.)
_Plato and Xenophon: Apologies of Socrates._ Edited by Nicholas Denyer. Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2019. (Greek text with commentary.)
Alternatively, the more intrepid may prefer to read Plato’s _Symposium,_ one of the towering masterpieces of world literature and philosophy, and certainly highly influential within Christianity. I recommend the following texts:
_Plato's “Symposium”: Greek Text with Facing Vocabulary and Commentary._ Edited by Geoffrey Steadman. Self-published, 2009. Last revised September 2014. (While not the standard text used, the facing vocabulary renders it most useful for the beginning or independent student.)
_Plato: “Symposium.”_ Edited by Kenneth Dover. Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1980. (For additional and deeper commentary. This is the usual commentary used, but without vocabulary.)
I recommend using the following translation aids for use after the introductory textbook and companion books:
_An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon._ New York: Oxford University Press, 1889. (This is the Greek lexicon primarily used by undergraduate classics students in their daily coursework. It also works for the NT. The LSJ may be consulted for more depth, variously available online.)
_Greek Grammar._ Edited by Herbert Weir Smyth. Revised by Gordon M. Messing. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1956. (This is the standard grammar in English.)
_The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek._ Edited by Evert van Emde Boas, Albert Rijksbaron, Luuk Huitink, and Mathieu de Bakker. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2019. (An important update.)
_All the Greek Verbs._ By N. Marinone. New York: Bloomsbury Academic, 2011. (Contains the vast majority of verb forms one might find oneself puzzling over in the middle of the night, clearly identified in alphabetical order. Very helpful to beginning students.)
Remarkably helpful and handy, including for the NT, is Langenscheidt’s pocket “Classical Greek” dictionary, if you can find a copy. Be sure to avoid their Modern Greek dictionary. (Oxford publishes a roughly analogous pocket dictionary, less sturdily bound.)
For those wishing to read classical authors further, generally reliable text-with-commentary series include the Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics, the Cambridge Classical Texts and Commentaries, and the Oklahoma Series in Classical Culture. Bristol Classical Press publishes an extensive Greek Texts series (along with a Latin Texts one) with commentary. Oxford University Press also publishes two excellent series: outstanding and authoritative editions with commentary on Aristophanes in their Clarendon Paperbacks series; and their text-with-commentary (and at least sometimes facing translation) series on an eclectic assortment of authors and works, Aris and Phillips Classical Texts. Geoffrey Steadman, cited above, provides editions of a number of classic works, with facing vocabulary and commentary.
@@choreologychannel I apologize for the slow reply. Thank you for the very helpful suggestions. I’m already familiar with Pharr. This is the textbook that we used when reading through Book 1 of the Illiad. I’ve also come across “Plato, a Transitional Reader”, and you’re right - that would be a very good text to use. I’m unfamiliar with “Learning Greek with Plato”. I’ll check it out.
For what it’s worth, I’m definitely not anti-classical Greek. My Greek New Testament is littered with hand-written quotations from Plato and other classical writers… even from the Illiad and Odyssey. The main question that I’m trying to explore is…. For the Christian who is primarily interested in Greek for the purposes of reading the New Testament, where do you start? It seems to me that the Biblical Greek texts are (for the most part) fairly straightforward and accessible, and there are very good Greek grammars for Biblical Greek. So it makes sense to start there, and then begin to branch out into other areas.
I say this with no particular axe to grind. I started with Classical Greek first. That’s my background, and I love ancient Greek literature, history, and culture. Further, a background in classical Greek certainly offers the tools necessary to tackle Biblical Greek as well, with some very minor adjustments. However, I believe it can work the other way too. Darryl has some great students in his program who have some excellent ability and background, who started with Biblical Greek.
@@Steve-hu9gw Thank you for your suggestions as well. This is an excellent selection of texts. I have many of these books, but not all. And of course, Smyth is an absolute must for any classicist. :)
You must run in different circles than I do. Although I’ve heard of From Alpha to Omega, I had no idea it was in the running for the top spot. Almost everyone I deal with these days increasingly promotes Athenaze, especially coupled with the Italian version, as a kind of intuitive, almost- living-language approach to learning Greek. I can’t say that I entirely agree. However, I understand why they land there.
From Alpha to Omega is definitely a big step up from Athenaze in terms of organized grammar presentation. What it lacks is a lot of reading exercises, which is where Athenaze's strength lies. But perhaps From Alpha to Omega has these in the exercise book, which I don’t have.
Very profitable and enlightening discussion. Thank you, gentlemen.
I have learned to read and understand basic classical Greek before learning koine Greek because I like the method for studying by myself. It is the Assimil method. In this method, I read the text, try to understand, and repeat the sentence one by one until I don’t make mistake. As revision, I try to translate the translation again into classical Greek. So I get my basic knowledge of Greek. So I have learn a little bit about the Philosophie, the culture and word’s formation. This method is not available for English Speakers. I use the French version.
That's an interesting comment. I'm trying to figure out which way to go before driving in. have been leaning towards studying attic first, but one question I have is whether or not I really needed to become significantly proficient at attic for it to be of any real help to me in learning koine. I don't mind putting in significant time and work, but I sort of had this idea in my head that maybe I could learn attic up to maybe just a basic proficiency and then move on the koine. That sounds like what you did, right? In other words I'm not really interested in spending several years mastering attic before I jump into koine (but neither am I looking to put in low effort and take a shortcut). Am I thinking right on this?
I am not even a religious person, I have never read the bible. I started learning Modern Greek more recently and learned the basic grammar, etc. I discovered _Koine Greek_ in the past month through research and discovered the books _'Beginning with New Testament Greek'_ and _'Going Deeper with New Testament Greek'_ and so I got both of them.
For me, there is no better way, in my opinion, to learn a type of Ancient Greek language as well as to decipher something like the bible than to use this method and learning this beautiful language. I actually look forward to it and I hope to learn a lot.
It sounds to me from some comments that Classical Greek isn't that far off from Koine. I'm starting with Koine and going to invest a lot of time into it. I have wondered though whether this may also help me with learning Modern Greek. I do comprehend though, Modern Greek will be more simplified with grammar and no doubt many words have been omitted, a bit like the difference between Old English and the English we speak today.
Thanks for this video, very insightful.
I have been thinking about this subject. This video is helpful. Thanks
My goal would be to read the new and Old Testament in Greek. Goal is to read the Antiochian recension of the Septuagint.
At minimum, read Homer and Plato translations. They are important background for NT history and philosophy along with the OT.
Hi, i am a beginner in koine greek. I have three questions:
1. Which pronunciation do you use for koine greek?
2. When should there be breathing marks? I have looked for an answer to this question but I haven't found an answer yet. And what decided if it should be a smooth or rough breathing mark?
3. What should i learn after the alphabet, vowels, dophtongs, accents and breath marks? Am i ready to start learning words after learning that or is there anything more that i have to learn first?
Hello Viktor. As for pronunciation, there are basically 3 options: Erasmian Pronunciation, Modern Greek pronunciation, or some sort of Reconstructed pronunciation. There are some factors that may play into which pronunciation system that you chose, and there are people out there who will argue passionately about which pronunciation system is the best. However, you can be successful regardless of which pronunciation system you chose.
As for how you should proceed..... It's hard to learn Greek as a solitary student, although certainly possible if you are disciplined and you have a good textbook. But it's much easier to have a community. If you have the means, I recommend Biblical Mastery Academy, which is, by far, the best program I've found for Biblical Greek. www.biblicalmastery.academy/. If you don't have the means for that, at very least get yourself a good Greek grammar textbook + workbook and work your way through that. I can recommend some options if you are interested.
Greek orthodox Christian use the New Testament in church 2000 years in koine never use erasmius way
I'm a nerd..an absolute nerd.
This is the greatest channel on RUclips.
And your work is absolutely opening the Word of God before/in spite of the world.
Thanks for watching and for your support!
If your goal is ultimately to read either Josephus or Philo,, or any other of the late ancient historians and philosophers, then you need to learn Attic Greek, because these writers are extremely Attic in their grammar and syntax. If one plans on reading mostly the New Testament, if there is extra time, I would start learning either Hebrew or patristic Greek.
Is patristic Greek much different from Josephus or Philo's Greek?
@@stevenv6463
In general, Josephus and Philo are much more difficult. I think one should read a couple Plato dialogs before taking on Philo. There are, however, patristic writers that are more advanced.
@@Aaron_Wells Difficult as in more classical and less Koine?
@@stevenv6463 more Attic, much more optative mood, more difficult vocabulary, harder syntax, more ellipsis, etc. Remember that Philo and Josephus were attempting to prove their writing was every bit as eloquent as the revered classical Greek authors.
Greek has been in existence, in some form or another, for millennia. I studied Koinē first, then Dhemotikē, then Attikē. I don’t see that order matters except with regard to the need at the moment.
Classical Greek has duals, which disappeared by the time of the NT, and even Euclid AFAIK did not use them. He wrote "δυσιν ορθιαις ισαι εισιν"; in classical Greek, every word would be different, "δυοιν ορθιαιν ισα εστον" or something like that.
A few weeks ago, I met someone with a quote from Heraclitus tattooed on her arm and astonished her by reading it. In his dialect, "we are" is "ειμεν"; by the first century, it had changed to "εσμεν".
At university I got to attend a party at a sorority and while standing in their main hall by a couple of friends with a drink in my hand I noticed the sorority motto on the wall -- written in Greek of course -- and I read it and then translated it out loud. I got pounced on by a half dozen sorority gals, one exclaiming, "How do you know our motto? That's secret!" I stared at her for a couple of seconds and then laughed and said, "If it's secret, why is it written on your wall?" "But it's in Greek!!" she practically screeched. I shook my head and told her, "When fraternities and sororities first started every member could read Greek. Those mottoes weren't meant to be secret, they were intended to be read by scholars."
That night before I made it out of there a dozen fraternity guys surrounded me and asked if I could translate all the other sorority mottos. So over the next couple of weeks guys intercepted me with what they'd copied from sorority hall walls. I don't know if they got all of them, but they got enough that it seemed that every sorority gal on campus knew who I was and hated on me. I just told them every time, "If it's supposed to be secret, don't write it on your wall".
Very good stuff here. What about teaching Greek to younger students? My kids have always been required to learn Latin in various classical schools (both secular and Christian). But it always seems that they should have worked on Greek first and then moved on to Latin if they were so inclined. Any thoughts/resources?
Latin is closer to modern European languages (except maybe Greek) and uses the same alphabet, also it introduces archaic grammar structures in a softer way, that's why kids should start there. An adult with an Anglo-Saxon/Germanic background can dive straight into Greek though.
It's good to remember that Jesus's ministry was mainly to simple country and village people so that the four accounts of that are not complex lectures requiring a deep understanding of the original language. All present day versions will convey his message of God's Kingdom Come (Matt6.9)and the requirement of faith in that promise, in him and his sacrifice and in God who made that all possible. John 3.16, John17.3
The most common words in Attic, don't 100% overlap with the most common words in Koine Greek. There are also subtle differences between the meaning of some words as they appear in the Greek New Testament compared to the earlier Attic era writings. Neither of these are huge hurdles, but it does matter. It seems to me that learning the most common words in Koine first is the most valuable in terms of time commitment. But then later on, learning the differences that pop up in attic is extremely beneficial.
Gen 11:1 Zep 3:9 For deeper .understanding, search out the Etym , grammar and synatax Words but above this Ask Him and He will shew Jn 16:13 you will know Jn 8:32 Jn 17:17
I am practicing my Koine Greek skills so I wrote a bunch of texts in Koine Greek and I hope that you can translate it:
1. Και εν τοις ουρανοις, εγω ειδον τους αγγελους και τους αγιους του Θεου, και οι αγιοι του Θεου παρακαλουσιν τω Θεω, λεγουσιν, "Ω Θεε! Ω Θεε! Ω Θεε! Ακουε ημας και αποστελλε οργην και απωλειαν επι του κοσμου!". Τοτε, εγω ειδον τον Θεον, και αυτος ην επι του θρονου των ουρανων, και ο θρονος των ουρανων ην επι του προσοπου της γης.
2. Γαρ καθως ο αστηρ του Τιαματ απωλεσεν την πολιν την Ιτομορι και διεχωρισεν τον Τακι απο της Μιτσουα, αμαρτια απωλεσεν φυσιν ανθρωπων και διεχωρισεν ανθρωπους απο του Θεου, και καθως οινος στυματος συνεζευξεν παλιν τον Τακι μετα της Μιτσουα, οινος διαθηκης συνεζευξεν παλιν ανθρωπους μετα του Θεου.
3. Γαρ απ αρχης κρονου, απεκαλυφθη και εφανερωθη υπαρξις του Θεου προς ανθρωπους δια κτισεως Αυτου. Ουν, υμεις αναπολογητοι, οι ανθρωποι!
Fascinating and interesting topic but I didn't find the discussion to be that persuasive or even conclusive. I am really interested in Koine Greek for the New Testament and Septuagint.
My feeling is that if you were learning Attic Greek you'd certainl find the New Testament approachable and comprehensible. I don't now that for certain but I think if you are fluent in reading the New Testamet (and I mean really fluent) you'd be able to start to approach easier forms of Attic.
(I note your intreviewee suggests you can go strainght from Koine New Testament to reading Plato without further preparation! Now that suggests to me you can use one to read the other.
My interests are really Koine (Septuagint and NT) and Homer (at some stage) so we'll see.
PS So far as I understood I thought Josephus and Philo wrote in Koine - am I wrong?
I really think of Koine and Attic as two dialests of Ancient Greek, along with Homeric, which is a different dialect again. If you read modern English you can read Shakespeare, even though there are differences. You can go further back. A modern English reader can read Chaucer and Wycliffe. Whether Koine is enough for modern Greek is another matter entirely....
We focus learning Greek for the purpose of reading the Greek New Testament and Septuagint first and also the Apostolic Fathers. There are lots of Koine texts available, both religious and non-religious texts, including Philo and Josephus, but many more. Marcus Aurelius even wrote his Meditations in Greek!
Father Stephen De Young says that there is no such thing as “Koine Greek” only Biblical Greek which is essentially, Greek written by people with a Hebrew or Aramaic background.
What do you think about this claim?
Also, my criticism of the claim that studying Attic Greek is like studying Elizabethan English or old English is this, English has been profoundly influenced by the Franks, and there is much more borrowed vocabulary and syntax in English than there is in Greek. English hasn’t been a very stable language compared to others.
Has it sence to spend some time on Duolingo modern greek course first?
Absolutely not.
@@peterfritz6030 I do now reading with the use of an application, with English translation. I work a pair of lines, than reread it in the app, then reread it in a book, than reread it with some prior lines, then I take some more. I can like this read and understand five pages already. It's amazing!
D. A. Carson in his book “Exegetical Fallacies” points out that relying upon Classical Greek word roots and meanings should not be relied upon to interpret or translate Koine Greek.
Utter nonsense. I got my degree in classics before my degree in biblical studies. I have yet to crack open a grammar of “biblical Greek” and hardly ever look at BDAG. None of it prevented me from translating circles around my colleagues and classmates in biblical studies, and in a tiny fraction of the time. That’s the simple truth of the matter. The only reason to go via and stick with Koine is a desire to not spend time on anything but the NT. That’s fine, but you will have a harder time at translation than you otherwise would have, until you’ve essentially memorized all the text. So it’s a trade-off.
I knew a very famous NT scholar who would make all his advisees take the first two years of Greek offered in the classics department no matter how much Koine they had already had. They always found it to be a sort of boot camp, even in first-year Attic, a phenomenon that always amazed me. Shouldn’t they have had a considerable advantage, having already learned some basics?
Btw, no one who already has Attic is made to take any introduction to Koine or “biblical” Greek in biblical studies departments. No one even whispered any such thing within earshot of me.
@@Steve-hu9gw thanks for the reply, Steve. I was just commenting on Carson’s comment. I personally wouldn’t know if Attic Greek helps understand Koine. I’m only interested in NT Greek studies.
@@drbill-r9f, his comment is ludicrous. To pretend that the words used in the NT suddenly materialized there, ignoring everything the LSJ has to say about their broader and often more basic and fundamental contexts, is to violently rip those words out of the language in which they exist and have their meaning.
Do you know Hebrew and Latin also?
Better or worse to learn Greek of different eras is not the question i think.
Archaik Greek
Homeric Greek
Ancient Greek
Ionian GREEK
Macedonian Greek
Koine Greek
Biblical Greek
Byzantine Greek
Katharevousa Greek
Nowadays Greek
......
They are all Greek.
They are the branches of the same Greek language tree, evolving through the centuries.
Better or worse to learn first?
Idk😐 :
What about Modern Greek?
Does knowing the language spoken today in Greece help you read the Greek New Testament texts?
A little. A bit like knowing modern English prepares you to read Shakespeare or Chaucer, but there is perhaps more distance between Koine and modern Greek. Thanks for asking!
Not just a little bit, but absolutely knowing modern Greek helps with koine. I am semi fluent in Modern Greek and I can pick up a koine NT and understand the majority of it and I have never studied any ancient Greek. Obviously I plan on studying ancient one day (probably will start with Homeric) but knowing MG will definitely suffice for having a great foundation of understanding of NT Greek. Plus you can actually talk to people, which is the main objective of learning a language.
Easy
@@bma not a little but easy one reading modern greek csn understand koine of the New testament actually in the greek orthodox church koine greek is used world wide not modern greek 2000 years now
Not only it helps, but if you know modern Greek, but to know them well, you can read almost full the text of New Testament. It's just a matter of some practice. Don't listen what different peaple say on yt, that they are supposed "experts"
I speak modern Greek and can understand a lot from Koine without much practice,so why not learn modern?😅. Of course there are words that I don't know but overall i can understand the meaning
I am doing Greek in Dublingo while mainly doing Koine. Yes, I find quite a number of words common to these two variations of Greek.
@@qiaochan both koine, ancient, modern,etc is the same hellenic language evolved
Kindly launch right into the answer to the clickbait question; do not repeat the question (we already saw it), nor say "let's get into it." Just GET INTO IT. por favor, señor.
Acts 2:6-8 .... every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans 1 Jn 2:27 ... ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, Jn 16:13 Zep 3:9
Why do you insist so much on these artificial differencies ? It is the same language. If a well prepared student reads and understands Plato, the New Testament and saint Basil is not because he studied two different dialects. He knows very well Greek. The differencies are natural, considering the time span.
The music in the background is distracting and irritating (at least to me); otherwise great video!
None! I'm Greek, and at least, if one wants to learn only Koine to read New Testament from the original, the ABSOLUTE hands down best, is to learn one well modern Greek first. If one knows WELL modern Greek (and with some practice) one can read New testament texts 90/100% (at worst case around 80%. With practice this becomes better and better). And immediately.. starts from around 30%, to up 90/100% more ancient Greek (it depends from the era and the practice one will do). I personally can read new testament from the original with NO lesson on Koine Greek 95/100% and more ancient Greek with NO lesson on ancient Greek ever (only some few on school that i dont remember now them at all) around 50% the Homeric Greek and from 60% to 90/100% the rest era, it depends from the text.
The modern Greek is much closer as language to Koine Greek than the more ancient Greek to Koine. Modern Greek is as good, beautiful and rich language as both Koine and ancient. Dont underestimate it from some "antiqophily" prejudices (and forget all the pronunciation bs, it is not needed, and it perplexes things with no reason. Learn the modern Greek and that is the best )
A person told me the word "Worship" or Greek words that stands for "Worship" does not exist in Greek. Especially in these verses Matthew 2:1-2 and Matthew 2:11,
John chapter 9 verses 17, 24, 31, 35-38.
Matthew 13:33, Matthew 28:9,
Biblical Greek Bible he said, nowhere does it say Jesus was Worshiped.
I told him. I maybe wrong I said in English and the Greek the English word used "Worship" is the meaning of the Greek used in the Greek written Bible.
He said No where in the Greek Bible reads Jesus was Worshiped.
Does anybody here know the answer and evidence to back up that answer.
Was Jesus Worship written in the Greek Bible scriptures?
Matthew 28:17 καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν, οἱ δὲ ἐδίστασαν. προσεκύνησαν means "they worshipped".
Also, John 9:38, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9. Have great day!
Προσκυνησις can be use as worship or honor in greek
@@ballsyougothacked5650 actually the word in greek can mean worship but it also means just to honor
Now ask Dr. Ammon Hillman this question....
Erasmus way to say koine greek is wrong
I think Aquinas did a great job integrating the truths of Christianity and Greek philosophy.
A heretic
You don’t need to learn Greek. The Bible was already translated perfectly into English. It’s called the King James. The Bible is perfect. We have it translated perfectly into English already. Stop looking for a translation that reads how you want. Stop “going back to the Greek”. Just read The Bible (King James) and believe every word of it.
Neither. The Greek of the New Testament found in the oldest version of the text is "translation Greek". That is, it does not follow the proper grammar or gender rules for nouns. Scholars claim this is something called "koine greek". Nonsense. The Greek translators wanted to preserve the original text word for word as they translated in order to not add or take away anything from the Word of God as the Scripture warns.
And I have yet to have an expert scholar explain exactly why the Septuagint Greek is exactly the same as New Testament Greek. One is known to be a translation and the other..... Well?
Homeric. The answer is always: Homeric XD
The answer is Hebrew. Learn Hebrew.
How then read the original language of the New Testament
Hi, I really liked the video. However I disagree on a prime part. As europeans or Americans with european background. like both of you authors, although we are christians we are europeans! So we probably should think first in a greco-roman point of view. after all, we dont follow the Old Testament to the letter nor the new one. so why should we over compare our selves with the jews. after all jews hate Jesus. they killed him. Ponsus pilotus the roman consul washed his hands o Jesus case and who he gave permission to terminate Jesus? the pharisees(elite jews). so I feel like as descendants of the roman and greek empires and other tribes from Europe. shouldn't we see it through a traditional christian background instead of calling our selves judaeo christian we probably should call ourselves euro-christian as the jews terminated Jesus. so associating with them doesn't seem ideal. this is just a discussion commentary.
The God of the Christians is the God of Israel, the God of the covenants and the God of the Jewish patriarchs and prophets. Jesus was a Jew. He confirmed the message of the prophets and counted the “old” testament, the Jewish Tanak, as inspired, unbreakable scripture, as did his disciples,the first Christians, who were also Jews. All but 1 of the authors of the New Testament (Luke) were Jews. When Paul, a Jewish Pharisee who authored most of the NT, was put on trial he declared that he was on trial “for the hope of Israel” (Jesus the promised Messiah). Before it was called Christianity it was called “the Way” and was simply considered a sect of Judaism that had embraced the promised Jewish Messiah. The first Christians even had to decide whether non Jews could even come to faith in their Messiah without becoming Jews. That is a major theme in the book of Acts. It wasn’t until Gentile Christians began to multiply and Christianity spread across the Roman Empire and after the Jews were scattered after the destruction of the temple in 70ad that Christianity started to be considered something separate from Judaism. Then the debate became whether Jews could become Christians! This is also when you began to see a growing hatred of Jews in the church and in the writings of the church fathers, which continued off and on for centuries. This is what you refer to as the “traditional Christian background”. But antisemitic theology and a predominantly Gentile church do not change the fact that what we call Christianity is simply the acceptance of the God of Israel and the entering into the eternal covenant promised to Israel, revealed and established in the person and work of Israel’s Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth. And when he returns he will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, as promised in the both the Hebrew Bible and the epistles of the New Testament. You will want to be identified with the Jews in that day! This doesn’t discount our European cultural inheritance, but our faith and worldview are/should be fundamentally Hebraic, not Greek. Give Romans chapters 9-11 a close reading
Quit butchering the pronunciation of the work Koine!