There is another form of prologue: the one that sets the mood of the scene, usually used in japanese comics. It works in role-playing gaming, too... one time a GM started the session describing how the larva of a woodeating insect drills it's tunnels through dead wood, knowing nothing about the world outside, nor day or night being of meaning; just the munching, and the growing. So, eventually it was time to transform into the insect, and crawl outside where warm sun and air waited for it--- only to be crushed by the heel of one of the player character's boot. Turned out we were starting aboard of a ship sailing the high sea.
Yea this is what my prologue aims for, making it clear the tone of the book/series, setting expectations about what to expect. But I might be trying too many things with my prologue... Trying to bring my POV character back in the SECOND book of the series... Love the getting crushed by a boot though, definitely sets the tone!
Tolkien´s prologue is not bad. It´s just different and you have to work with it differently. You can ignore it or you can read it, either way, you will probably get what is going on in the story.
Ditto. Books start with their first chapter. If your story starts before it, then you just didn't number your chapters correctly. Tolkien's prologue is just that - a prologue. Read it for some background information, but it is not part of the story.
To me it is an encyclopedia, I skip it unless I need extra info on something. Ofcourse Tolkien is the GOAT of world building but I agree that you should not recommend new writers to start their book with an enormous info dump.
That seems like kind of a copout to defend Tolkien. If you can just skip an entire chapter and it makes no difference, it shouldn't be there. How is someone supposed to know that they can just skip your first chapter? Assume a reader will read it, and if then it just has no impact and wasted their time, it's just bad.
@@trafalgarlaw8373 Have you read the comments or Tolkien? It´s not a chapter. It´s a prologue, infodump. You get that after the first few words and then you can easily skip it or read it, it´s up to you. Nobody said it has no impact. It´s background information that explains things about Tolkien himself and his world. But it´s not absolutely necessary to understand the novel itself. Prologues do that all the time.
As a completely untrained amateur writer, I cannot express how much I appreciate these video lectures! Thank you very much for helping those of us without the formal education/training.
A prologue is the sign of the rules outside the pool. Theyre great. Prologues are not bad it’s RUclips trends that have made us think there’s way more agents who reject prologues than they’re actually are.
What about "The flash forward". Where you show a reflective moment in the near future of the story that foreshadows further complications or developments. Then you spend 1-2 chapters developing the characters on their way to get there.
That's kind of what I'm doing in my book. The prologue just shows the start of the adventure, and the first few chapters introduce the nine important characters.
Does this fall under your 1st chapter being too weak? Whenever I read a prologue like this, it feels like the author saying, "I know I'll lose you if I don't promise really hard that this will get interesting." Like anything, I'm sure it can be done well. It might be more interesting to me if there's a huge disconnect between the prologue and chapter 1. Rather than Ch1 starting with the "normal day" (and then we know shenanigans will ensue), it was like the Prologue shows the guy doing crazy shit in Vegas, and then Ch1 starts with "Steve was never going back to Vegas." That's probably overly simple, but curious how you're using this flashback. I think the real question you should ask yourself is, if we already know what's going to happen in Ch3, why do we need to read 1-2?
@@PhoenixCrown mate I totally think you have a point that this is the danger. On the other hand it opens up a lot of cool things. For example, it allows for much more subtle foreshadowing, that the reader will still get on their first read. Not necessarily a bad way to prime then for that kind of style. Also: for me it feels like often the only difference between a good and a bad trope is your degree of execution.
@@AggroJordan86 Yes I love the focus on execution--and for a newbie like myself probably focusing on executing general "best practice" tropes etc, not trying to break the rules until I understand them better. But your reply made me see it from a different angle: If you foreshadow events in the future, just ensure that the JOURNEY to that stage is compelling (and maybe unpredictable). Good writing mate!
I am one of this people that didn't get bored when reading "Lord of the Rings" prologue. Many people says that the descriptions bored them,but for me it was ok. I don't know why,maybe it just because I love discover a good lore?
I’ve always loved that prologue and frequently reflect on it when considering The Lord of the Rings. I’m not sure what that says about me if it’s concerned bad. Anyhow, I feel like the prologue is just as valid a place to info-dump as the appendices. It’s outside the main story.
@@rogerelliss9829 There also wouldn't be modern cars without the first scrambly one, doesn't make it good. Of course, lotr actually is great. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have problems.
Tolkiens prologue was created mainly for people who were interested in the details after reading The Hobbit. After Hobbit almost 20 years passed until Lotr was printed. All those years Tolkien was swimming in letters from fans wanting more.
Love the How Did He Do That? That style consistently builds the most anticipation for me. I think because it’s more character/skill focused as opposed to a more abstract suspense like the Distant Threat
The best prologue I've ever read is the opening of Red Sister by Mark Lawrence. It tells you exactly what you're getting into, and sets up some expectations that are used to great effect later in the book and in the series. Tolkien was basically a tree in human form. He appreciated slowness and pre-modern styles of storytelling, and 'Concerning Hobbits' is all about the framing narrative and setting the reader in relation to the book as a 'historical' document. But it would be very, very hard to pull off today I would be really interested to see a video analyzing novel dialogue. Screen/stage dialogue is a different form where you have a performer's and director's interpretation involved to get across emotion and inflection. But novels have different elements at play that didn't get discussed in looking at film dialogue.
I want advices about this: I'm trying to write a prologue where a future scene that is a battle scene filled with action and emotions. The reason I'm doing this is because the biggening of my story is sort of slow where i try to build my character and i don't want readers to feel bored or off-put by the slow start so i make a prologue setting the mood and showing readers what the story and the mood is about without jumping into the action without giving proper introduction and building of world and characters
I have a prologue typed up for the novel I'm working on. However, I've been debating whether or not to include it. The characters the prologue follows will have been long passed away when the chapter one kicks off, but are hailed as very important figures in the current time and referenced several times throughout. Still, whether I include it or not, it's good to have that bit of history logged away to maintain consistency.
Well, consider how knowing about these characters changes the reader's experience reading about your current ones. How long does the prologue take? How did those relevant characters shape the world your protagonists are in today?
@@trafalgarlaw8373 The prologue takes place long before the events of the book, and follows to two figures in how they came to discover the source of divine power that is central to the book's main plot. It's a bit long, maybe around 4k words. I did write another prologue based on the feedback of fellow writers after they read chapter 1. They said they lacked any interest in my main character because they didn't know anything about him, so I wrote a prologue that takes place about ten years prior to show why he became a paladin. Thanks to that prologue, they said the first chapter was much better because they now understood who he was and why he was there, so I'm proceeding with that prologue instead of the other. I may save that first one for something else, perhaps as an extra thing for fans, oe soemthing.
@@TheDoomKnight Yeah, how the power was originally discovered is kinda pointless in that regard. So good choice to cut it out. For the backstory, I'm uncertain. Starting with a characters backstory from not too long ago feels kind of weird. Like you could've probably made your character more interesting in the present, or given some information otherwise, without a full flashback. Perhaps it's more satisfying if you give a bit in the present, and raise the question: "Why did he become a paladin?"
One thing to remember about the prologue to the Lord of the Rings is that it was a sequel to the Hobbit. He was likely giving all that information to update and inform the fans of the Hobbit. That being said, I would agree -it isn't a great prologue to learn from. But I think we can cut Tolkien some slack because it kind of worked for him. I mean, the book is the second most popular fiction of all time so....
Very informative and precious info, thank you so much Jed. I found out I wasn't writing a prologue, but my actual Chapter 1. Gives me ideas so how to write a shorter and punchier prologue! Take care
this is a perfect guide for writing fast food equivalent of novels. There are no good or bad fantasy prologues. Some like info dumps and detailed world building, some like fast punches. A writers job is not to cater to every reader. Fellowship of the Ring wouldn't be what it was without that 7 thousand word prologue. Just do yourself a favor and write instead of watching clickbait videos with worthless advice.
I think you have to know what you’re getting with this channel. Jed is a very commercial-minded, by-the-book writer. He’s never done a video on avante garde fantasy or successful experimentation or trope subversion. But even if you’re not exclusively into commercial fiction (I’m certainly not) you can still get value from the channel on occasion (I do).
You really can't compare Tolkien's prologue with modern fantasy novels. Tolkien was writing at a time when it was rare to find large and complex creations. He was just introducing something new that you couldn't really find in mythological references. The Lord of the Rings has been voted as the best fantasy novel of the 20th Century. Can't really argue with that.
Tolkien was slower pace because FANTASY was a slower at the timez it was a newer genre, unlike the great gatsby, lotr is about adventure, a Looong avdventure, having focus on details of nature and costumes and culture, since tolkien vallued these the most, speacially nature
My two cents: The purpose of a prologue is to preview elements of the story that will become relevant later, but would seem to undermine the verisimilitude of the world if introduced at the point they become imminently relevant. Think of it as saying to the reader "heads up! there's x in this story. Don't be weirded out when x shows up later." For instance, imagine reading a story or watching a movie that starts off with a conman tricking someone into elaborate pyramid scheme. You follow this conman over a couple of days and just as you get a grip on the character and the rules of the world, just as you're gaining a sense of immersion, one of his marks turns out to be a shapeshifting alien. Many readers might feel ejected from the story by this--i.e. what felt like a slice of life, petty-crime drama is suddenly, what? A sci-fi horror? Supernatural adventure? However, if there was a sequence before the start of the main plot which established that our alien exists, the reader would be prepared for his return later in the story and would be spared a jarring shift in the setting. Mediocre prologues may fail to do this in a compelling way. Meanwhile, prologues that shouldn't exist at all may undermine the story by tipping the audience off to something better left as a surprise (e.g. the opening voiceover in the film Dark City). Finally, its useful to understand the difference between a prologue and it's cousin the preface. In short Prologues take place in the world of the story while prefaces are the real life author directly addressing the reader.
In the prologue of my piece i started by introducing a major character of the story which mainly acts as the idol figure for the mc. Almost like the start of my hero academia but the mc was not given powers but instead witnessed the strength of the major character. It is just a short sequence where the character arrives back to his hometown and returns back to his journey a day after
I always find something humorous about an author who's written a handful of paperbacks citing one of the best selling classics of all time as an example of "bad writing", but in this case, I agree with Mr. Hern - sort of. Would-be writers are well-advised not to emulate Tolkien's prologue in LOTR. In his defense, though, I would argue that this is not a literary prologue, but in the style of an academic prologue - as Mr. Hern correctly points out, it is to create the illusion that this is not a novel, but a translation of an important historical record. I cannot think of another prologue that is like this one. For another thing, the prologue is listed in the Table of Contents as part of the front matter, next to Foreword on the Second Edition. Tolkien structured the book as if the prologue were external to the actual novel. The effect is like reading the translator's notes on a translation of Beowulf; THIS section is the work of the translator, and THAT section is written by an anonymous long-dead literary genius. Two different authors, each with different skills and objectives; one ancient and one modern. It's true that most readers will start reading at the beginning of chapter one, and many may not even realize that there is a prologue. But I think this is part of Tolkien's design. It may be the best-written prologue in all of literature, but it is NOT something to be emulated by us mere mortals.😢😮
For me, The best prologue comes in a game "I was born 87 years ago. For 65 years I've ruled as Tamriel's emperor, but for all these years, I've never been the ruler of my own dreams. I have seen the gates of Oblivion, beyond which no waking eye may see. Behold, in darkness, a doom sweeps the land. This is the 27th of Last Seed, the year of Akatosh, 433. These are the closing days of the third era, and the final hours of my life."
I also hated prologues.... and i hated them because 1 simple thing : they didn't contribute anything to the story, and felt disconnected. but now that I have invested so much inmy novel, 1 prologue was not enough for me... I ended up writing 3 Prologues : Prologue 1: A dedicatory to my readers to talk about what I want to express through this story Prologue 2( the actual prologue) : the struggle the 3 main characters suffer and the treasures that give them the force to keep going on, all in a single voice Prologue 3: chapter 0: the spark that puts the story into motion. None of these are necessary to read the story, each of them is one page long, so If you are not a prologue reader you can skip them, but my purpose is to connect with the reader and prepare them for the story that is about to unfold
I think the Tolkien’s prolog worked because it was basically a bridge between book 1 (Hobbit) and book 2 (fellowship). It tells the reader that deeper experiences are ahead.
Thanks. This helps a lot. I was planning to write a prologue. Now I'm sure I'll need it. Really appreciate this. By the way, my prologue is like that of Dragon Mage, but it's going to be about something that happened in the past, that will later be revisited while the story progresses. Is this a good way to do a prologue? That is, showing an event that took place before the main story started, then as the story progresses, that even from the prologue will be fully shown in flash backs as the main character progresses.
The Prologue of my current novel, is kind of a "Backstory-Prologue. It also has a punch and some worldbuilding in it and sets the tone, but what happens will only become important untill a reveal/twist in the second act. So I think it fits two categories. But what would you guys think? Where do we sort in any kind of Backstory-Prologue.
If you ask me, nothing beats the sheer power and atmosphere of the unique prologue of the main Kingkiller Chronicle books. The Silence of Three Parts is just so recognizable, perfectly written and hammered into the reader with prologue and epilogue. I love that. Almost freaked out when Pat Rothfuss read the prologue to Book 3 on his stream.
There is a Light Novel that doesn't need a prologue, because the character's personality, background and death are scattered through Chapter 1. I believe it is to make fun of isekai who start the plot with characters getting hit by a truck.
I admit, unless it's short, I almost always skip a prologue until after I get into the story and know the characters, then I will go back. Lord of the Ring's was no acception.
I don't recall encountering any prologues growing up, so I never really knew what to think about them. And then I read the prologue in Game of Thrones. It blew my frickin' mind. I use that as my argument for the value of prologues now. (Like any writing tool, though, they must be used judiciously.) You're now the second person I've encountered who has/had strong negative feelings about prologues. The leader of a writing group I was part of a lifetime ago hated them so much she bragged about always skipping them, never reading them. I hope she's changed her mind since.
It's very simple. Is there information about the story readers need that can't be integrated into the text? Yes: write a prologue. No: integrate the info throughout the story.
Thanks Cameron! Hmm, I think I've only written one prologue before, for Sands of Truth. Will hopefully get it out there into the world one day (it's fully written - just need to edit it ... but it's also intended to be book 1 in a 7 book series, so I'm going to have to pick my moment wisely, publishing-wise). You can judge its effectiveness then :)
@@Jed_Herne That’s awesome! I’m currently working on a novel that is also the first book in a series. The task of “writing a series” seems somewhat daunting, doesn’t it? Especially in my case since I’ve never published a novel before.
One of the prologue i prefer was from a trilogy. I dont remember the names but the prologue of each books describe the same scene. From the beginning to the end. And it is a nice scene showing abilities of the people you follow when they master their full ability. You understand only at the end that this scene was almost the end of the book. Its funny.
I wrote a prologue for my almost finished book 2. I wanted to "make a promise" to the reader and set expectations. Chapter 1 feels like a pirate adventure, and I get back to the prologues promise of sword and sorcery by chapter 4.
So question. Have you done a video about writing a good betrayal? (Or know where to find one?) There's a traitor in the story I'm working on and want it to be surprising but not to point of making reader mad at the story and stop reading.
The best way is to try making him ambiguous, make his actions and interactions suspect but not obvious. He knows something he shouldn't, he goes missing for a while or shows up in a weird location, things like that. The important is that you sprinkle some hints here and there, like if the other characters notice it something strange, or you can use word play to tell, so the readers find out later and remember (like the references to the "bloody bed", in GoT, to tell about Jon's real mother). Also MOTIVATION. Traitor just for treason sake is stupid, have a good/comprehensible/interesting reason. It is very hard to do, because or you do it all just right, or you can ruin it all. To be honest, I have seen it done wrong more ofthen than not (eyther too obvious, or it just happens) and the few times I found it OK-ish it was a weak payoff, because of poor setup.
So in the prologue of my novel, the main villain is presented right away confronting someone he believes has infiltrated his domain and is punishing them for it. The main hero in chapter one is exposed to the aftermath of this villain's fury. Having come home from their first successful trip as an adult to violence and treachery that the hero nor their people have ever seen before is what spurs the hero to leave to reclaim what was taken from the village. My question is, is it too on the nose to have it presented like that? I ask because I did intentionally have the hero away from their village when things happened. Chapter One is the hero coming home to destruction and death caused by the villain and have to deal with it.
The problem is not if it is too on the nose, but if it is interesting to read. Make us want to know more, make the vilain complex, sofisticated, flamboyant even if it fits your character's profile. Have him struggle with the decision, like he fears his subbordinates thinking he is a coward, or if he is too brutal he fears the backlash. Give us a reason to believe he has a plan or objective beyond what we already have read. Just avoid the "evil, because...?" character, that many writers end up with, that you'll be fine.
Ok I know Jed literally said that info dumps are not a great idea but would a short form lore dump work as a prologue? Think of the intro cutscene to Dark Souls for example: a vague 'how the world was born' type of prologue that's loosely connected to the main plot points of the story
That is very typical japanese fantasy trope and found in literally every classic fantasy anime for example. I personally find that any info dump not related to the reader's immediate interest is a detriment to the story. IMO first develop the reader's interest as to why these things are important and then go to town.
I was wondering how you feel about interludes, setting up a second sword of Damocles halfway through the book that the protagonist would have no knowledge of. One that shifts the background dynamic of the story drastically and will become evident to the protagonist much later on. You could perhaps drip-feed the information to the protagonists as they go but it wouldn't have the same impact or be as compelling, the downside of course being that it would be disruptive to the story.
I think this topic is going to be a bit subjective. Tolkein and Martin had different goals for what they wanted their prologues to do. Neither are bad, just different. I feel I should also mention that I actually enjoyed the prologue in Lord of the Rings. I stopped reading Game of Thrones 10 pages in because I kept yawning.
A prologue ive seen lots that usually loses me really quick is the "dialogue" prologue or "secret and vague meeting" prologue where these characters are having a dramatic conversation but ive been given no reason to understand or care about what theyre saying yet. wheel of time did this for me
I have a 4.5 page prologue, down and dirty for what I feel the reads need to know. An on a need to know basis and they don’t need to know more for the rest of the story to play out. It is needed imo to make the readers understand the world they are about to enter and then let Chapter 1 and the story take over
I love your work and I want to go into fantasy writing, I have a magic system which I haven't seen before and I feel its also really hard to control its writing. I need advice
I guess that what I'm considering is doing a prologue that is like a short excerpt from an encyclopedia. I looking at something in the range of a paragraph or two. The story takes place in our 1400s but the encyclopedia is in use in a time in our future and talks about a race of aliens that humans have met in our explorations.
That's called using "ephemera" any items from inside of the main story. Like maps, quotes from in universe books and philophers. It's a great tool. Many writers place them at the beginning of each chapter. Frank herbert, brandon sanderson. Its really good for setting tone and adding world building that doesnt smoothly fit in the main story.
In my gothic fantasy novel I am currently working on, I am featuring a short-ish prologue that takes place during my protagonist's childhood that shows the pivotal traumatic event that defines the main narrative, which is a negative character arc. After prologue a 11 year time skip occurs and we follow the protagonist as an young adult and the main narrative goes from there. My book's themes are centered around nihilism and corruption. I am adopting soft worldbuilding since my narrative is extremely character driven
Same here. My prologue is a traumatic past event. It ends up being a recurring dream the main character keeps having the longer she is in the country it happened in. She is depressed and wants nothing more than to keep running from what she did, but then, you know, the story wouldn't happen.
@@chrispy_091I should say that the other purpose of my prologue is to establish the relationship between my protagonist and their love interest as children, and establish romantic tension which will be very important later on in the novel as adults (a decade long time skip occurs between prologue and chapter 1) , which will culminate in a lovemaking scene.
While it was a manga/manwha, one of my favorite prologues-to-chapter 1 is from "Lady and the Beast", a romance disguised as political theater . It starts as if it was an infodump of the history of a Witch to Queen and briefly touches on a romantic relationship with her king, only to pull the view back to show it actually is a history lesson being taught about the queen. The Professor teaching the lecture asks a bored girl in class a specific question about the Queen to humiliate her for not paying attention, only for her to answer it with uncanny accuracy as if she lived it. It waste no time telling you, this "bored girl" is a reincarnation of that same queen. You are shown her past in only glimpses, and get to learn how more of that past and affects her life and romances as she's forced to dive head first in the new political atmosphere. I love it, it shows promises in the romance, action, and political drama. And it pays off exceptionally well through the story.
My prologue serves as both a crutch, and an important hint at the plot and the history of my story’s world. My first chapter is uneventful, but I can not write the first chapter of this book any differently because this is part of the story. I just feel like it’s too bland, but I don’t see the problem.
Are there any small conflicts in the bland chapter for your character. He might want to see his friend but things get in the way. Something that tells us about him, his goals and is a smaller version reminiscent of his plot arch in the book. If so then its probably not that bland to a reader and likely sets the tone and gets us to know the character and setting.
You can't have a chapter 1 that nobody is going to read. Find a way to make it better, or look at why you are starting it then. "My first chapter sucks but it is required" is the first sign that the overall story is going to suck.
Tokien is above criticism and Martin is a hack who came from writing soap operas for TV. Of course Martin knows how to write for those with no attention span.
So following Tolkien's example, you can info dumb, you just need to write so well that your considered by some to be the father of modern fantasy to make up for it.
Great video. My prologue is closest to the quick punch (I think you called it), and I'm curious people's opinion on something: The goal of my prologue is really to set the tone for the novel. It's from the POV of a character that tried to stop the bad people but failed, so bad things happened (way in the past). However, I hint at that character coming back into the story, but she doesn't UNTIL BOOK 2. In my 4-book series, I plan to do this with the first 3 books, have a prologue where the character doesn't appear again until the following book. Is that breaking a golden rule of promise + payoff? Will people forget who the character was if they were in a previous book? Or will they love that I connected the story in a creative way? I'm sure it all comes down to execution, just curious thoughts or if anyone has seen this done before.
I think it should be in the same book, having it at the very beginning I think 98% of people are gonna forget it bc that char wasnt important throughout the whole journey. If anything I would rather hint at that char in an epilogue
I don't mind long, sometimes tedious, prologues. I'm very fond of information and lore, so info-dump prologues suit me well enough, though I don't use them much in my own writing. The only part of a book I like that I tend to skip is the interrogation scene in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (the 5th book) as that part of the book gives no info, no lore, and it advances at half a snail's pace, lasting for 40-50 pages before anything happens... That part of Harry Potter 5 is narrative cancer...
The way to connect to the prolog of The Fellowship of the Rings, is to read The Hobbit first. It's really only important if you wanna know about the history of hobbits.
I still hate prologues. Don't know who these characters are, no idea how this fits into the story. Usually feels like something that was pulled from the middle of the book and used as a prologue. Maybe I only come across bad ones. I'm better off skipping it and going back to it after reading the rest of the book. "Oh, that's where the prologue fits into the story".
I have lost the desire to write lately. I have read and seen too many "writer rules" like this. Along with the advances in AI, writers must soon be redundant, at least those who stay within orthodox frameworks set up by people who just want to read and write more of the same without exception. AI can easily cope with this simple, monotonous and prescriptive way of writing.
I had that same insight about my own WIP prologue. Was I really just using it because chapter 1 isn’t interesting enough? So I went and reworked chapter 1 some and I think it’s much better now (at least for a first draft).
Everyone has his own taste of what is a good or a bad book. Some like long descriptions, others find it boring and want a lot of action. Some like complex books, others like "easy" novels to rrelax etc. I think what can be considered a "good" book is basically one that will please the majority. And I am sorry but as good as the story of the LofR is, it has defaults. Actually , LOTS of experienced Fantasy readers find it hard to read because the rhythm is not always good. The prologue is the perfect example of it, and honestly, many people gave up on continuing the story because they found it too boring. Myself, I decided to stop reading it to jump to the "real" story because I was not appealed by it. I came back to it later when I felt "ready".
Jed, I'm working on a peice that is apart of an established universe not owned by any individual. Think the Halo, or Star Wars books. Do you have any guidance for how to sell a story to an I.P. owner yet retain reasonable control over the narative to make the story your own? Edit: fantastic breakdowns. I haven't considered a prolouge before, but I may once the project is finished.
@@lennysmileyface Like halo is owned by microsoft, starwars is owned by disney. My story isnt set in those worlds but is similarnin that the world is owned by a company.
I mean, without context we probably can't help with specifica. But, my advice as a complete random? I wouldn't want to try that with a company unless you had a fairly ok personal relationship with the people who own it. I don't see _any_ IP owner of anything big enough to be known making it easy to retain control over the story like you want, but that doesn't mean they won't take it. Hell, I could be wrong, obviously, but it doesn't sound like a very safe idea for your product, imo.
@@NearlyH3adlessNickyeah, i mean i am/was asking some far fetched advice. Repectfully and professionally, i do hope youre wrong and the I.P. owner and editors see that my writing is better than the established stuff and will take it with minimal changes. I do want to write this, and just finishing it will teach me more than anything else...itd be nice to earn something from it too.
@@sethkeown5965 Oh, so do I! Dw, I'm not trying to squash dreams for no reason, I'm just trying to be brutally pragmatic. Again, idk what IP you're talking about, so I can't know for sure, but most I can think of have fairly strict control on Canon. I hope you are able to maintain control on your story, and _especially_ hope that you can maintain ownership (at least a little) to be able to make money. Good luck! I pray I'm being too pessimistic and that this company is way cooler than I'm giving then credit for! haha
I tried the Tolkienesque encyclopedia prologue for my story, nowhere near as long, couldn't read that either, something shorter but on the same vein… didn't work, not sure I can try again. Really wanted to use a prologue with this kind of worldbuilding but with less info dump, only namIng key players and places… but no way I can make it work, is a really flawed idea by default
Tolkien was not a great writer, but he was a great storyteller (when he was on form). I've read LOTR at least a couple of dozen times and there are sections I dread having to read each time. That suggests those sections are badly written
I would advise to avoid disposable characters because if I was fully immersed in the story and then you killed them, then you take me out of the story completely and I’m not sure if I want to commit again for fear you would yank it out from under my feet again.
Dude just discredited himself by saying GG Martin’s prologue was superior to Tolkiens. My Guy, Martin is hands down the worst fantasy writer ever published. The icing on the cake is when you said the characters can’t feel disposable after reading Martins prologue. Every single one of his characters feels contrived and disposable. Bro. Tolkiens prologue is infinitely superior to Martins. I really enjoy your content but this video made me realize you have no idea what you’re talking about.
My next fantasy novel, Kingdom of Dragons, launches on Kickstarter on November 2nd! Check it out here: bit.ly/kingdom-of-dragons-jed
do you do your own book covers
Is it done?
It feels like I already read it after watching some of your videos on this channel.
There is another form of prologue: the one that sets the mood of the scene, usually used in japanese comics.
It works in role-playing gaming, too...
one time a GM started the session describing how the larva of a woodeating insect drills it's tunnels through dead wood, knowing nothing about the world outside, nor day or night being of meaning; just the munching, and the growing. So, eventually it was time to transform into the insect, and crawl outside where warm sun and air waited for it---
only to be crushed by the heel of one of the player character's boot. Turned out we were starting aboard of a ship sailing the high sea.
That's another cool form for sure!
Yea this is what my prologue aims for, making it clear the tone of the book/series, setting expectations about what to expect. But I might be trying too many things with my prologue... Trying to bring my POV character back in the SECOND book of the series...
Love the getting crushed by a boot though, definitely sets the tone!
Lmao that's a cool opener 😅
Tolkien´s prologue is not bad. It´s just different and you have to work with it differently. You can ignore it or you can read it, either way, you will probably get what is going on in the story.
Ditto. Books start with their first chapter. If your story starts before it, then you just didn't number your chapters correctly. Tolkien's prologue is just that - a prologue. Read it for some background information, but it is not part of the story.
To me it is an encyclopedia, I skip it unless I need extra info on something. Ofcourse Tolkien is the GOAT of world building but I agree that you should not recommend new writers to start their book with an enormous info dump.
That seems like kind of a copout to defend Tolkien. If you can just skip an entire chapter and it makes no difference, it shouldn't be there. How is someone supposed to know that they can just skip your first chapter? Assume a reader will read it, and if then it just has no impact and wasted their time, it's just bad.
@@trafalgarlaw8373 Have you read the comments or Tolkien? It´s not a chapter. It´s a prologue, infodump. You get that after the first few words and then you can easily skip it or read it, it´s up to you. Nobody said it has no impact. It´s background information that explains things about Tolkien himself and his world. But it´s not absolutely necessary to understand the novel itself. Prologues do that all the time.
@@trafalgarlaw8373 It´s completely normal to have prologues, forewords and essays at the beginning of books.
As a completely untrained amateur writer, I cannot express how much I appreciate these video lectures! Thank you very much for helping those of us without the formal education/training.
A prologue is the sign of the rules outside the pool. Theyre great. Prologues are not bad it’s RUclips trends that have made us think there’s way more agents who reject prologues than they’re actually are.
What about "The flash forward". Where you show a reflective moment in the near future of the story that foreshadows further complications or developments.
Then you spend 1-2 chapters developing the characters on their way to get there.
That's kind of what I'm doing in my book. The prologue just shows the start of the adventure, and the first few chapters introduce the nine important characters.
Great note! I should've included this, especially since the only prologue I ever wrote uses this approach
Does this fall under your 1st chapter being too weak? Whenever I read a prologue like this, it feels like the author saying, "I know I'll lose you if I don't promise really hard that this will get interesting." Like anything, I'm sure it can be done well. It might be more interesting to me if there's a huge disconnect between the prologue and chapter 1. Rather than Ch1 starting with the "normal day" (and then we know shenanigans will ensue), it was like the Prologue shows the guy doing crazy shit in Vegas, and then Ch1 starts with "Steve was never going back to Vegas." That's probably overly simple, but curious how you're using this flashback.
I think the real question you should ask yourself is, if we already know what's going to happen in Ch3, why do we need to read 1-2?
@@PhoenixCrown mate I totally think you have a point that this is the danger. On the other hand it opens up a lot of cool things. For example, it allows for much more subtle foreshadowing, that the reader will still get on their first read. Not necessarily a bad way to prime then for that kind of style.
Also: for me it feels like often the only difference between a good and a bad trope is your degree of execution.
@@AggroJordan86 Yes I love the focus on execution--and for a newbie like myself probably focusing on executing general "best practice" tropes etc, not trying to break the rules until I understand them better.
But your reply made me see it from a different angle: If you foreshadow events in the future, just ensure that the JOURNEY to that stage is compelling (and maybe unpredictable).
Good writing mate!
I am one of this people that didn't get bored when reading "Lord of the Rings" prologue. Many people says that the descriptions bored them,but for me it was ok. I don't know why,maybe it just because I love discover a good lore?
I love hearing people complain about lotr. The reality is there wouldn't be a modern fantasy genre without it.
I’ve always loved that prologue and frequently reflect on it when considering The Lord of the Rings. I’m not sure what that says about me if it’s concerned bad. Anyhow, I feel like the prologue is just as valid a place to info-dump as the appendices. It’s outside the main story.
@@rogerelliss9829 There also wouldn't be modern cars without the first scrambly one, doesn't make it good. Of course, lotr actually is great. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have problems.
Fr I wasn't bored at all lol
Tolkiens prologue was created mainly for people who were interested in the details after reading The Hobbit. After Hobbit almost 20 years passed until Lotr was printed. All those years Tolkien was swimming in letters from fans wanting more.
Fair point!
Love the How Did He Do That?
That style consistently builds the most anticipation for me. I think because it’s more character/skill focused as opposed to a more abstract suspense like the Distant Threat
The best prologue I've ever read is the opening of Red Sister by Mark Lawrence. It tells you exactly what you're getting into, and sets up some expectations that are used to great effect later in the book and in the series.
Tolkien was basically a tree in human form. He appreciated slowness and pre-modern styles of storytelling, and 'Concerning Hobbits' is all about the framing narrative and setting the reader in relation to the book as a 'historical' document. But it would be very, very hard to pull off today
I would be really interested to see a video analyzing novel dialogue. Screen/stage dialogue is a different form where you have a performer's and director's interpretation involved to get across emotion and inflection. But novels have different elements at play that didn't get discussed in looking at film dialogue.
I want advices about this:
I'm trying to write a prologue where a future scene that is a battle scene filled with action and emotions.
The reason I'm doing this is because the biggening of my story is sort of slow where i try to build my character and i don't want readers to feel bored or off-put by the slow start so i make a prologue setting the mood and showing readers what the story and the mood is about without jumping into the action without giving proper introduction and building of world and characters
The way you highlighted the page in a game of thrones😭😭
But I was mesmerised by that prologue!
Don't worry, the page was a photocopy :)
@@Jed_HerneAh thank goodness🙈 Great video too, I really enjoyed this topic because I enjoy prologues and have one in my own WIP
I know it's not the subject of the video, but you looked legitimately excited to talk about your book! That passion is really nice ^^
I have a prologue typed up for the novel I'm working on. However, I've been debating whether or not to include it. The characters the prologue follows will have been long passed away when the chapter one kicks off, but are hailed as very important figures in the current time and referenced several times throughout. Still, whether I include it or not, it's good to have that bit of history logged away to maintain consistency.
Well, consider how knowing about these characters changes the reader's experience reading about your current ones. How long does the prologue take? How did those relevant characters shape the world your protagonists are in today?
@@trafalgarlaw8373 The prologue takes place long before the events of the book, and follows to two figures in how they came to discover the source of divine power that is central to the book's main plot. It's a bit long, maybe around 4k words.
I did write another prologue based on the feedback of fellow writers after they read chapter 1. They said they lacked any interest in my main character because they didn't know anything about him, so I wrote a prologue that takes place about ten years prior to show why he became a paladin. Thanks to that prologue, they said the first chapter was much better because they now understood who he was and why he was there, so I'm proceeding with that prologue instead of the other. I may save that first one for something else, perhaps as an extra thing for fans, oe soemthing.
@@TheDoomKnight Yeah, how the power was originally discovered is kinda pointless in that regard. So good choice to cut it out. For the backstory, I'm uncertain. Starting with a characters backstory from not too long ago feels kind of weird. Like you could've probably made your character more interesting in the present, or given some information otherwise, without a full flashback. Perhaps it's more satisfying if you give a bit in the present, and raise the question: "Why did he become a paladin?"
One thing to remember about the prologue to the Lord of the Rings is that it was a sequel to the Hobbit. He was likely giving all that information to update and inform the fans of the Hobbit. That being said, I would agree -it isn't a great prologue to learn from. But I think we can cut Tolkien some slack because it kind of worked for him. I mean, the book is the second most popular fiction of all time so....
Very informative and precious info, thank you so much Jed. I found out I wasn't writing a prologue, but my actual Chapter 1. Gives me ideas so how to write a shorter and punchier prologue! Take care
this is a perfect guide for writing fast food equivalent of novels. There are no good or bad fantasy prologues. Some like info dumps and detailed world building, some like fast punches. A writers job is not to cater to every reader. Fellowship of the Ring wouldn't be what it was without that 7 thousand word prologue. Just do yourself a favor and write instead of watching clickbait videos with worthless advice.
This. No writer is ever going to satisfy everyone and they should never try.
I think you have to know what you’re getting with this channel. Jed is a very commercial-minded, by-the-book writer. He’s never done a video on avante garde fantasy or successful experimentation or trope subversion. But even if you’re not exclusively into commercial fiction (I’m certainly not) you can still get value from the channel on occasion (I do).
If you can recommend a channel that does discuss more experimental stuff, please drop a link.
@@umwha6271I'm also interested in a link, please.
Some are better than others
You really can't compare Tolkien's prologue with modern fantasy novels. Tolkien was writing at a time when it was rare to find large and complex creations. He was just introducing something new that you couldn't really find in mythological references. The Lord of the Rings has been voted as the best fantasy novel of the 20th Century. Can't really argue with that.
Tolkien was slower pace because FANTASY was a slower at the timez it was a newer genre, unlike the great gatsby, lotr is about adventure, a Looong avdventure, having focus on details of nature and costumes and culture, since tolkien vallued these the most, speacially nature
My two cents:
The purpose of a prologue is to preview elements of the story that will become relevant later, but would seem to undermine the verisimilitude of the world if introduced at the point they become imminently relevant. Think of it as saying to the reader "heads up! there's x in this story. Don't be weirded out when x shows up later."
For instance, imagine reading a story or watching a movie that starts off with a conman tricking someone into elaborate pyramid scheme. You follow this conman over a couple of days and just as you get a grip on the character and the rules of the world, just as you're gaining a sense of immersion, one of his marks turns out to be a shapeshifting alien. Many readers might feel ejected from the story by this--i.e. what felt like a slice of life, petty-crime drama is suddenly, what? A sci-fi horror? Supernatural adventure? However, if there was a sequence before the start of the main plot which established that our alien exists, the reader would be prepared for his return later in the story and would be spared a jarring shift in the setting.
Mediocre prologues may fail to do this in a compelling way. Meanwhile, prologues that shouldn't exist at all may undermine the story by tipping the audience off to something better left as a surprise (e.g. the opening voiceover in the film Dark City).
Finally, its useful to understand the difference between a prologue and it's cousin the preface. In short Prologues take place in the world of the story while prefaces are the real life author directly addressing the reader.
Well said!
In the prologue of my piece i started by introducing a major character of the story which mainly acts as the idol figure for the mc. Almost like the start of my hero academia but the mc was not given powers but instead witnessed the strength of the major character.
It is just a short sequence where the character arrives back to his hometown and returns back to his journey a day after
I always find something humorous about an author who's written a handful of paperbacks citing one of the best selling classics of all time as an example of "bad writing", but in this case, I agree with Mr. Hern - sort of.
Would-be writers are well-advised not to emulate Tolkien's prologue in LOTR.
In his defense, though, I would argue that this is not a literary prologue, but in the style of an academic prologue - as Mr. Hern correctly points out, it is to create the illusion that this is not a novel, but a translation of an important historical record. I cannot think of another prologue that is like this one.
For another thing, the prologue is listed in the Table of Contents as part of the front matter, next to Foreword on the Second Edition. Tolkien structured the book as if the prologue were external to the actual novel. The effect is like reading the translator's notes on a translation of Beowulf; THIS section is the work of the translator, and THAT section is written by an anonymous long-dead literary genius. Two different authors, each with different skills and objectives; one ancient and one modern.
It's true that most readers will start reading at the beginning of chapter one, and many may not even realize that there is a prologue. But I think this is part of Tolkien's design.
It may be the best-written prologue in all of literature, but it is NOT something to be emulated by us mere mortals.😢😮
For me, The best prologue comes in a game
"I was born 87 years ago. For 65 years I've ruled as Tamriel's emperor, but for all these years, I've never been the ruler of my own dreams. I have seen the gates of Oblivion, beyond which no waking eye may see. Behold, in darkness, a doom sweeps the land. This is the 27th of Last Seed, the year of Akatosh, 433. These are the closing days of the third era, and the final hours of my life."
I also hated prologues.... and i hated them because 1 simple thing : they didn't contribute anything to the story, and felt disconnected.
but now that I have invested so much inmy novel, 1 prologue was not enough for me... I ended up writing 3 Prologues :
Prologue 1: A dedicatory to my readers to talk about what I want to express through this story
Prologue 2( the actual prologue) : the struggle the 3 main characters suffer and the treasures that give them the force to keep going on, all in a single voice
Prologue 3: chapter 0: the spark that puts the story into motion.
None of these are necessary to read the story, each of them is one page long, so If you are not a prologue reader you can skip them, but my purpose is to connect with the reader and prepare them for the story that is about to unfold
Incredibly helpful as always mate, thanks a lot for making this.
maybe it is on me, but I found the prologue north of the wall confusing and boring. The book began in all its glory with Brandon I
I think the Tolkien’s prolog worked because it was basically a bridge between book 1 (Hobbit) and book 2 (fellowship). It tells the reader that deeper experiences are ahead.
Thanks.
This helps a lot. I was planning to write a prologue. Now I'm sure I'll need it. Really appreciate this.
By the way, my prologue is like that of Dragon Mage, but it's going to be about something that happened in the past, that will later be revisited while the story progresses. Is this a good way to do a prologue?
That is, showing an event that took place before the main story started, then as the story progresses, that even from the prologue will be fully shown in flash backs as the main character progresses.
I LOVED prologues. I never understood why, it was something I preferred writing than the actual novel. 😂
The Prologue of my current novel, is kind of a "Backstory-Prologue. It also has a punch and some worldbuilding in it and sets the tone, but what happens will only become important untill a reveal/twist in the second act. So I think it fits two categories. But what would you guys think? Where do we sort in any kind of Backstory-Prologue.
This was very helpful. thank you
If you ask me, nothing beats the sheer power and atmosphere of the unique prologue of the main Kingkiller Chronicle books. The Silence of Three Parts is just so recognizable, perfectly written and hammered into the reader with prologue and epilogue. I love that. Almost freaked out when Pat Rothfuss read the prologue to Book 3 on his stream.
Yes. What is with Kingkiller Chronicle?
I love The Name of the Wind's prologue (and was pretty close to including it in this video). Maybe in a part 2...
There is a Light Novel that doesn't need a prologue, because the character's personality, background and death are scattered through Chapter 1.
I believe it is to make fun of isekai who start the plot with characters getting hit by a truck.
I admit, unless it's short, I almost always skip a prologue until after I get into the story and know the characters, then I will go back. Lord of the Ring's was no acception.
I don't recall encountering any prologues growing up, so I never really knew what to think about them. And then I read the prologue in Game of Thrones. It blew my frickin' mind. I use that as my argument for the value of prologues now. (Like any writing tool, though, they must be used judiciously.)
You're now the second person I've encountered who has/had strong negative feelings about prologues. The leader of a writing group I was part of a lifetime ago hated them so much she bragged about always skipping them, never reading them. I hope she's changed her mind since.
It's very simple. Is there information about the story readers need that can't be integrated into the text? Yes: write a prologue. No: integrate the info throughout the story.
Once again another banger video, Jed! I’m curious to know, have you ever used any of these “bad” prologue’s when you were a novice writer?
Thanks Cameron! Hmm, I think I've only written one prologue before, for Sands of Truth. Will hopefully get it out there into the world one day (it's fully written - just need to edit it ... but it's also intended to be book 1 in a 7 book series, so I'm going to have to pick my moment wisely, publishing-wise). You can judge its effectiveness then :)
@@Jed_Herne That’s awesome! I’m currently working on a novel that is also the first book in a series. The task of “writing a series” seems somewhat daunting, doesn’t it? Especially in my case since I’ve never published a novel before.
One of the prologue i prefer was from a trilogy. I dont remember the names but the prologue of each books describe the same scene. From the beginning to the end.
And it is a nice scene showing abilities of the people you follow when they master their full ability.
You understand only at the end that this scene was almost the end of the book. Its funny.
I wrote a prologue for my almost finished book 2. I wanted to "make a promise" to the reader and set expectations. Chapter 1 feels like a pirate adventure, and I get back to the prologues promise of sword and sorcery by chapter 4.
Imagine saying the words "don't get people attached to characters you're going to kill off" while holding up game of thrones as a positive example.
So question. Have you done a video about writing a good betrayal? (Or know where to find one?) There's a traitor in the story I'm working on and want it to be surprising but not to point of making reader mad at the story and stop reading.
The best way is to try making him ambiguous, make his actions and interactions suspect but not obvious.
He knows something he shouldn't, he goes missing for a while or shows up in a weird location, things like that.
The important is that you sprinkle some hints here and there, like if the other characters notice it something strange, or you can use word play to tell, so the readers find out later and remember (like the references to the "bloody bed", in GoT, to tell about Jon's real mother).
Also MOTIVATION. Traitor just for treason sake is stupid, have a good/comprehensible/interesting reason.
It is very hard to do, because or you do it all just right, or you can ruin it all.
To be honest, I have seen it done wrong more ofthen than not (eyther too obvious, or it just happens) and the few times I found it OK-ish it was a weak payoff, because of poor setup.
LOtR prologue isnt bad. Its bad because LOtR is literally so good, you can trace it to any other fantasy story since. It is the pinnacle of Fantasy.
You are inspiring me so much, I’m so glad I found your channel.
So in the prologue of my novel, the main villain is presented right away confronting someone he believes has infiltrated his domain and is punishing them for it. The main hero in chapter one is exposed to the aftermath of this villain's fury. Having come home from their first successful trip as an adult to violence and treachery that the hero nor their people have ever seen before is what spurs the hero to leave to reclaim what was taken from the village. My question is, is it too on the nose to have it presented like that? I ask because I did intentionally have the hero away from their village when things happened. Chapter One is the hero coming home to destruction and death caused by the villain and have to deal with it.
The problem is not if it is too on the nose, but if it is interesting to read.
Make us want to know more, make the vilain complex, sofisticated, flamboyant even if it fits your character's profile. Have him struggle with the decision, like he fears his subbordinates thinking he is a coward, or if he is too brutal he fears the backlash.
Give us a reason to believe he has a plan or objective beyond what we already have read.
Just avoid the "evil, because...?" character, that many writers end up with, that you'll be fine.
Ok I know Jed literally said that info dumps are not a great idea but would a short form lore dump work as a prologue? Think of the intro cutscene to Dark Souls for example: a vague 'how the world was born' type of prologue that's loosely connected to the main plot points of the story
That is very typical japanese fantasy trope and found in literally every classic fantasy anime for example. I personally find that any info dump not related to the reader's immediate interest is a detriment to the story. IMO first develop the reader's interest as to why these things are important and then go to town.
I was wondering how you feel about interludes, setting up a second sword of Damocles halfway through the book that the protagonist would have no knowledge of. One that shifts the background dynamic of the story drastically and will become evident to the protagonist much later on. You could perhaps drip-feed the information to the protagonists as they go but it wouldn't have the same impact or be as compelling, the downside of course being that it would be disruptive to the story.
Nice, I'm writing a prologue and this really helped 👍
That's awesome!
I think this topic is going to be a bit subjective. Tolkein and Martin had different goals for what they wanted their prologues to do. Neither are bad, just different.
I feel I should also mention that I actually enjoyed the prologue in Lord of the Rings. I stopped reading Game of Thrones 10 pages in because I kept yawning.
A prologue ive seen lots that usually loses me really quick is the "dialogue" prologue or "secret and vague meeting" prologue where these characters are having a dramatic conversation but ive been given no reason to understand or care about what theyre saying yet. wheel of time did this for me
Thanks jed sir, you are doing really great work.
Fan from India 😊😊
Thanks!
Great video Jed! This is a fantastic way to go about writing prologues! Super helpful to watch.
Glad it was helpful!
I hate that he draws in the boooook aaaaaahhhhh
Its for me the same feeling when someone folds a corner as bookmark hhhnnggHHH
I feel you on Tolkien’s prologue. Long, detailed, historical, it took lots of energy for me to just intake all that wrote
I have a 4.5 page prologue, down and dirty for what I feel the reads need to know. An on a need to know basis and they don’t need to know more for the rest of the story to play out. It is needed imo to make the readers understand the world they are about to enter and then let Chapter 1 and the story take over
I love your work and I want to go into fantasy writing, I have a magic system which I haven't seen before and I feel its also really hard to control its writing. I need advice
I want to try Dragon Mage. Is it good?
I guess that what I'm considering is doing a prologue that is like a short excerpt from an encyclopedia. I looking at something in the range of a paragraph or two. The story takes place in our 1400s but the encyclopedia is in use in a time in our future and talks about a race of aliens that humans have met in our explorations.
That's called using "ephemera" any items from inside of the main story. Like maps, quotes from in universe books and philophers. It's a great tool. Many writers place them at the beginning of each chapter. Frank herbert, brandon sanderson.
Its really good for setting tone and adding world building that doesnt smoothly fit in the main story.
@@faldrich1990 I really noticed it reading Keith Laumer's stories about Jame Retief of the CDT.
I love the ephemera approach a lot
The first chapter of my book is almost a prologue but not quite haha hopefully that makes sense
In my gothic fantasy novel I am currently working on, I am featuring a short-ish prologue that takes place during my protagonist's childhood that shows the pivotal traumatic event that defines the main narrative, which is a negative character arc. After prologue a 11 year time skip occurs and we follow the protagonist as an young adult and the main narrative goes from there.
My book's themes are centered around nihilism and corruption. I am adopting soft worldbuilding since my narrative is extremely character driven
I did the same thing😂. I was sitting here asking myself if maybe I should have set it further back
Same here. My prologue is a traumatic past event. It ends up being a recurring dream the main character keeps having the longer she is in the country it happened in. She is depressed and wants nothing more than to keep running from what she did, but then, you know, the story wouldn't happen.
@@chrispy_091I should say that the other purpose of my prologue is to establish the relationship between my protagonist and their love interest as children, and establish romantic tension which will be very important later on in the novel as adults (a decade long time skip occurs between prologue and chapter 1) , which will culminate in a lovemaking scene.
While it was a manga/manwha, one of my favorite prologues-to-chapter 1 is from "Lady and the Beast", a romance disguised as political theater . It starts as if it was an infodump of the history of a Witch to Queen and briefly touches on a romantic relationship with her king, only to pull the view back to show it actually is a history lesson being taught about the queen. The Professor teaching the lecture asks a bored girl in class a specific question about the Queen to humiliate her for not paying attention, only for her to answer it with uncanny accuracy as if she lived it. It waste no time telling you, this "bored girl" is a reincarnation of that same queen. You are shown her past in only glimpses, and get to learn how more of that past and affects her life and romances as she's forced to dive head first in the new political atmosphere.
I love it, it shows promises in the romance, action, and political drama. And it pays off exceptionally well through the story.
My prologue serves as both a crutch, and an important hint at the plot and the history of my story’s world.
My first chapter is uneventful, but I can not write the first chapter of this book any differently because this is part of the story.
I just feel like it’s too bland, but I don’t see the problem.
Are there any small conflicts in the bland chapter for your character. He might want to see his friend but things get in the way. Something that tells us about him, his goals and is a smaller version reminiscent of his plot arch in the book.
If so then its probably not that bland to a reader and likely sets the tone and gets us to know the character and setting.
You can't have a chapter 1 that nobody is going to read. Find a way to make it better, or look at why you are starting it then. "My first chapter sucks but it is required" is the first sign that the overall story is going to suck.
This helped so much.
Tokien is above criticism and Martin is a hack who came from writing soap operas for TV. Of course Martin knows how to write for those with no attention span.
3:45 this is Rauru from Tears of the Kingdom to a tee. :(
Elantris had the best prologue ever. It was so fascinating it launched a career.
The prologue in the lotr is prefaced with a, skip it if you've read the Hobbit. Very bold of Tolkein😂
Tastes differ, man. I adore Tolkien's style; his prologue is one of my favorite parts. There are very different readers out there in the wild.
So following Tolkien's example, you can info dumb, you just need to write so well that your considered by some to be the father of modern fantasy to make up for it.
Great video. My prologue is closest to the quick punch (I think you called it), and I'm curious people's opinion on something: The goal of my prologue is really to set the tone for the novel. It's from the POV of a character that tried to stop the bad people but failed, so bad things happened (way in the past). However, I hint at that character coming back into the story, but she doesn't UNTIL BOOK 2. In my 4-book series, I plan to do this with the first 3 books, have a prologue where the character doesn't appear again until the following book. Is that breaking a golden rule of promise + payoff? Will people forget who the character was if they were in a previous book? Or will they love that I connected the story in a creative way?
I'm sure it all comes down to execution, just curious thoughts or if anyone has seen this done before.
I think it should be in the same book, having it at the very beginning I think 98% of people are gonna forget it bc that char wasnt important throughout the whole journey. If anything I would rather hint at that char in an epilogue
Thanks for the feedback!@@PatzeShayminJeyawue
I don't mind long, sometimes tedious, prologues. I'm very fond of information and lore, so info-dump prologues suit me well enough, though I don't use them much in my own writing.
The only part of a book I like that I tend to skip is the interrogation scene in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (the 5th book) as that part of the book gives no info, no lore, and it advances at half a snail's pace, lasting for 40-50 pages before anything happens... That part of Harry Potter 5 is narrative cancer...
The way to connect to the prolog of The Fellowship of the Rings, is to read The Hobbit first. It's really only important if you wanna know about the history of hobbits.
Comparing Tolkien and GRRM? Didn't only one of them actually finish their story?
I still hate prologues. Don't know who these characters are, no idea how this fits into the story. Usually feels like something that was pulled from the middle of the book and used as a prologue. Maybe I only come across bad ones.
I'm better off skipping it and going back to it after reading the rest of the book. "Oh, that's where the prologue fits into the story".
I have lost the desire to write lately. I have read and seen too many "writer rules" like this. Along with the advances in AI, writers must soon be redundant, at least those who stay within orthodox frameworks set up by people who just want to read and write more of the same without exception. AI can easily cope with this simple, monotonous and prescriptive way of writing.
I had that same insight about my own WIP prologue. Was I really just using it because chapter 1 isn’t interesting enough? So I went and reworked chapter 1 some and I think it’s much better now (at least for a first draft).
How good can your prologue be when the author fails to write the last 2 books in the series that would actually pay it off?
So say... if it`s not a good way of writing prologue, then why does Tolkien have so much success to this day?
Tolkien was a better writer than you will ever be, just because you can’t grasp the complexity of his writing doesn’t make it bad.
Everyone has his own taste of what is a good or a bad book. Some like long descriptions, others find it boring and want a lot of action. Some like complex books, others like "easy" novels to rrelax etc. I think what can be considered a "good" book is basically one that will please the majority. And I am sorry but as good as the story of the LofR is, it has defaults. Actually , LOTS of experienced Fantasy readers find it hard to read because the rhythm is not always good. The prologue is the perfect example of it, and honestly, many people gave up on continuing the story because they found it too boring. Myself, I decided to stop reading it to jump to the "real" story because I was not appealed by it. I came back to it later when I felt "ready".
How long should a prologue be?
You kinda remind me of silko from arcane😮
Did you really put a cross on LOTR in your pic? Nah, brub
Loving your work, but watching you highlight and write in your books was killing me.
Haha! They were photocopied pages :). No books were harmed in the making of this video
@@Jed_Herne I literally thought the same thing until I saw how flat it was. We need that disclaimer at the end of the video. ':D
...oh, cool, Dragon Mage prologue sure made me wanna cry. fldj;ka
Jed, I'm working on a peice that is apart of an established universe not owned by any individual. Think the Halo, or Star Wars books. Do you have any guidance for how to sell a story to an I.P. owner yet retain reasonable control over the narative to make the story your own?
Edit: fantastic breakdowns. I haven't considered a prolouge before, but I may once the project is finished.
What do you mean not owned by any individual?
@@lennysmileyface Like halo is owned by microsoft, starwars is owned by disney. My story isnt set in those worlds but is similarnin that the world is owned by a company.
I mean, without context we probably can't help with specifica.
But, my advice as a complete random? I wouldn't want to try that with a company unless you had a fairly ok personal relationship with the people who own it. I don't see _any_ IP owner of anything big enough to be known making it easy to retain control over the story like you want, but that doesn't mean they won't take it.
Hell, I could be wrong, obviously, but it doesn't sound like a very safe idea for your product, imo.
@@NearlyH3adlessNickyeah, i mean i am/was asking some far fetched advice. Repectfully and professionally, i do hope youre wrong and the I.P. owner and editors see that my writing is better than the established stuff and will take it with minimal changes. I do want to write this, and just finishing it will teach me more than anything else...itd be nice to earn something from it too.
@@sethkeown5965 Oh, so do I! Dw, I'm not trying to squash dreams for no reason, I'm just trying to be brutally pragmatic. Again, idk what IP you're talking about, so I can't know for sure, but most I can think of have fairly strict control on Canon. I hope you are able to maintain control on your story, and _especially_ hope that you can maintain ownership (at least a little) to be able to make money.
Good luck! I pray I'm being too pessimistic and that this company is way cooler than I'm giving then credit for! haha
Anyone who thinks Game of Boners is better than LOTR has A LOT to learn. I'll get my advice elsewhere.
I’m sorry Tolkien I skipped to chapters 1 lol
You know... Martin did a Fantasy Saga... Tolkien did a Mithology Saga... There is a diference.
I tried the Tolkienesque encyclopedia prologue for my story, nowhere near as long, couldn't read that either, something shorter but on the same vein… didn't work, not sure I can try again. Really wanted to use a prologue with this kind of worldbuilding but with less info dump, only namIng key players and places… but no way I can make it work, is a really flawed idea by default
Tolkien was not a great writer, but he was a great storyteller (when he was on form). I've read LOTR at least a couple of dozen times and there are sections I dread having to read each time. That suggests those sections are badly written
Correction: Tolkien was not a good entertainer.
Tolkien and his work will outlive everysingle of you haters and your favorite modern writers.stay mad and read ya romance,thats for you
No, that suggests that YOU can't read them. Please, don't take your tastes, and reading skills as an objective way of evaluation.
I wasn't crazy about George R.R. Martin's prologue. An evil threat in the north? Zombies? That's been done to death in fantasy literature & film.
I would advise to avoid disposable characters because if I was fully immersed in the story and then you killed them, then you take me out of the story completely and I’m not sure if I want to commit again for fear you would yank it out from under my feet again.
Dude just discredited himself by saying GG Martin’s prologue was superior to Tolkiens. My Guy, Martin is hands down the worst fantasy writer ever published.
The icing on the cake is when you said the characters can’t feel disposable after reading Martins prologue. Every single one of his characters feels contrived and disposable.
Bro. Tolkiens prologue is infinitely superior to Martins.
I really enjoy your content but this video made me realize you have no idea what you’re talking about.
The fact that you said Martin is the worst shows that YOU have no idea what you're talking about.
i skipped the LOTR prologue 😆
I got as far as you starting to bag on the professor and I'm out. I won't be watching your channel any more.
Attack in titan has the best prologue ive ever seen personally
You mentioned a very good point on not using a prologue to cover up the boring chapter 1 :))) 🤌🏻✨️