It was great working with Jeff, and there will be a great backhand video on his channel shortly. His continuous serve motion helps with basic fundamentals. The loading the back leg is something I hadn't associated with the racket drop, and I'm excited to go experiment with it.
This conversation was ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. Coached fifteen years and you two coming from different sides (in a way) and meeting in the middle, and not necessarily fully agreeing, while providing in depth ideas about the biomechanics that ALL MADE SENSE, and was full of thought provoking instruction. I often would bring a football (American) to a lesson to teach kids how to throw one on the plane to me, and then show them how the serve itself was more of an upward throw (that still goes forward). Elbow, wrist, racquet. This helped them get the continuous throwing motion down. As for me now, I've really been working on the wrist movement that Jeff spoke of at the top of the trophy pose. Kyrgios actually starts that wrist position at the beginning of his serve take back. (another channel pointed that out recently.) For some reason doing that move has helped me loosen up a lot. I think I can serve almost 80 now! (JK, 95, lol).
Yes, I'd love to see more back-and-forth like this! It's really cool to hear the coaches' different approaches. And the interesting thing is that they agree a lot on what good serves do - and indeed their own serves look super similar - but how do you get someone there? That's where some of the differences become more stark.
@@mayabergom What Tom did so well is explain how the serve is taught to different levels with different approaches. What works to get the 3.0/3.5 on track won't be the same for an advanced 8+ UTR, but the fundamentals taught early can lead to the possibility of a more advanced serve. The frying pan grip and square faced bump serve will obviously get no one there. At the advanced level, it is amazing how serves are like finger prints, each one different. What Sampras,Goran and Becker were doing in the 90's could not have been farther apart, and yet we consider all three to be some of the best serves of the time. Becker, for example, used an eastern forehand grip and his right leg actually came forward (while in the air) whereas most players kick their right leg back. What I like about Tom is that he is always teaching to find the mechanics that work for your particular "fingerprint" while staying true to what actually works. Your question of how do you get someone there, in Tom's case, requires him to have multiple answers at the ready knowing there might be very specific answers that work for specific players.
Love the side by side slow motion comparison at 0:31. You can see the differences in how the racket drops "on edge" vs a more "open face" motion and how they relate to the teaching mechanics of throwing/leading with the elbow vs loading the back leg. Great discussion and insight!
Interesting video guys. This just goes to show that there's more than one way to serve. In ny opinion the Sampras racket drop technique is the best but it is more advanced as you need more flexibility to do so. However Stan Wawrinka has an old school back scratch racket drop and he can serve well over 130mph. I think as long as you have good fundamentals and a good throwing motion, it doesn't matter too much how you drop the racket behind your back. But to add fuel to the debate, Rick Macci does say that the racket drop is a dynamic movement due to the leg drive and hip rotation. This is how Roddick served over 150mph whilst only being 6ft 2. Great debate and tutorial.
So, another Coach and myself was chatting about this today. Everyone has their own natural abilities that lends to each player. That is somewhat why professionals look different on their service motions. Some have more shoulder usage, etc. However, there is something about developing a throwing motion. Just throwing a lot....whether it's a football or baseball dramatically helps the service motion. I think because it's the most natural way to use the body if your throwing an object. Sometimes, I feel that as coaches we over analyze how a particular professional does something in their own natural state (however somethings are manufactured). But lending to a student's very own abilities is sometimes lost and learning something can get too "technical". There was a lot of nice tidbits and gems in this video. I really appreciate it. Also, I made my own weighted throwing object but it's so cheap it breaks all the time. 🤷♀️
Nice to see two coaches discuss in public without having the same way of teaching. I would say the throwing motion and continious movement drill are quite the same and both a nice base and crucial before developing advanced stuff. I would like to add that the throwing motion itself isn’t the hardest part. It’s throwing the racket at the bal (at the right time and place) which is the hardest. So just like on the groundstrokes rhythm, timing and spacing is crucial. So drills with a bigger ball (volleyball serve) or lighter ball wich travels slower so its makes the timing less hard, will help make the transition from a throwing a ball to throwing the racket at the ball. Finally, hitting the ball in the “small” box hinders the free throwing motion. So serving against the fence or between just in the singels court is crucial for this transition! Best, Paul
Thanks for the great comment. I wish I could make things as easy and slow as you do in Europe. There’s a stigma here that slower balls etc are a hindering growth rather than helping. Players unfortunately find it patronizing.
This is my dream vid on tennis. For everybody else it's a recommended MUST VID ON THE SERVE. JS was the 1st who did clear the mess with my serve. This mess was partially due to the instructional mess and not only in the RUclips but amongst pros as well. Believe me I got a lot of lessons and advices from the the former and present ATP and WTA PLAYERS alike. The result - two broken tendons of my shoulder and USD54K operation with Dr. LaFosse in Geneva. Though 40 min drive to his personal clinic in France to Aneccy could spare me more then USD30K..But I was not aware and it's not highly relevant here and now. Conclusion - if the one serves really well that one not necessarily can teach the serve not even well but even at all. The cheetah 🐆 can run, who argues? Can it teach you to run? Doubt it... So the experience with JS was that you need the COACH and not the player. Prior I bumped into TA and his TPA Tennis JS was the only authority. Now they are two. And both made the unbelievable session in this vid. What is absolutely fantastic they address the slight nuances of their attitudes and this is besides being awesome by itself helps enormously to better understand the nature of the serve for the more facets you are aware of the less dogmatic and more flexible you are becoming in the comprehension of what really suits you...Awesome unsurpassed vid. Bravo 👏 👏 👏
Tom, GREAT video. I agreed a lot of with how you teach the serve to intermediates and some of what Jeff says which applies to high performance players. There are different efficient ways to get a nice serve and win the point. People’s bodies and skills are different and there are multiple ways to help people. I’m a former ATP coach and have extensive USTA HP training and I’ve taught 60,000 hours and I’m constantly learning. I’ll continue to watch and learn from you. Keep it up.
Thanks Steve. Great points. Totally agree. It’s about working with people, not on people, figuring out what they need and helping them in the simplest way possible. Always learning, and definitely learned a few things from Jeff.
Fascinating 🤩 Thanks for the great video. This comparison between your two teaching methods is one of the most interesting things I have seen about the serve
Woowww I never saw this coming!. So interesting having both of you sharing every word and guidelines with us. Awesome!!! This will be one of my most recurring videos for sure!! Kudos for such a great idea....and suprise for all of your followers and Jeff´s too!
I took the throwing motion you essentially taught me and used that, it has worked very well to give me basic a flat serve with pronation, a top spin serve where I throw without rotating (so stay side on) only straightening up and pronating afterwards, and a slice serve using the topspin motion with side cut. I can even have a go at whipping the pronation like a pro at the cost of some accuracy on my flat serve. As long as I keep varying the serve type and direction it's good enough to win me points at my level, it doesn't wreck my body and it's a great start for "proper" serving so big thanks to you. However my motion however is far too compact to give me anything close to a 100mph serve. I have been using RacquetFlex's serve videos to take it forward from there (in my opinion they are clear and helpful). Suggest you have a look at them - they basically talk about the same thing Jeff does using the rotation/leg push to get the racket to drop along with a number of other helpful hints such racket angle in trophy phase, body angle and angle of arm in relation to body as you hit the serve.
Two great coaches! I'm playing tonight and will let you know how I go incorporating your ideas. Update.....focusing on elbow position, decent shoulder turn and a good throw and pronation definitely adds a few mph, it's just hard to remember everything in the heat of battle!
Great video and discussion. Made me think about criticism in the comment sections on some of the shorts that Moratouglou has put out, and the thing most of these criticism have in common: they fail to see that teacher's advice has to be seen in context, which has to take into account the person in front of him, and what piece of advice will be most effective. Teaching a novice tennis player that is a highly skilled football (soccer) player will be very different from one that is a highly skilled frisbee golf player. One will have great movement skills and ability to leverage the legs and hips into the kinetic chain, the other will have great throwing skills and ability to leverage the upper body torso rotation.
Yes, I totally agree. Tips like "don't break the plane" or "load on the back leg" might be super helpful or supremely unhelpful - it all depends on where the player is in their development
PM is perhaps one of the greatest coaches ever and for sure now amongst live ones. Two things though with his serve teaching embarass me - the left arm not being tucked in but artificially going with the whole body anti-clockwise. Allegedly a-la Thiem. But Thiem does it after he INITIALLY TUCKES IN THE LEFT ARM TO THE CHEST. After and not instead. Secondly, the idea of PM that for the slice serve ONE MUST AVOID PRONATION. With this regard I don't have the slightest idea how to comment this - so absurd and unreal the whole idea is...I am very much afraid that PM does teach the topspin serve without pronation as well OMG, though I'm not 100% sure. But JS does. And if this is the case, then they are both IMHO wrong, and wrong very very seriously. Tom teaching in this regards looks the most modern, natural and up-to-date - one does pronation at any f... serve, as simple as that 💪🏿👋😊
Great video. I am a 50 year old intermediate with two surgeries in my shoulder both because of torn muscles in rotator cuff due to serves, that is to bad serving technique. Can’t insist more on how the serve technique is important. Personally believe learning the throwing motion concentrated on the elbow is basic to not overuse the shoulder which can lead to serious injuries
On the basketball/ throwing idea--love this. When I played, I was a good shooter but I didn't jump shoot. I'd catch the ball and release... What was interesting is that in photos I'd be a foot off the floor, but that was just the consequence of pushing up to release the ball 🏀
I love your first principle way of thinking this is really crucial for tecquniqe optimisation, and correcting flaws, just beautiful simple fundamentals of the arm whip works, no complex leg drive sequences, which I thing are absolete, and I prefer your way that the other way because racquets are only 300 to 350 g, so this is not a heawy ball throw
Amazing video, Tom and Jeff. Thank you for the outstanding dialog showing abundant mutual respect, and understanding that there is more than one way to get a great serve. Very much depends on the student, and a great instructor will help him/her get the what works optimally for them. Tom - on a separate issue, I’d like to ask you about your perspective on feet positioning on the platform serve, given your excellent grasp of biomechanics whilst also possessing an advanced level golf swing. Traditional teaching has the feet closed to the line of serve direction for platform stance. This is completely at odds with modern golf swing ideology where the idea is to create resistance by differential shoulder and hip rotation going back to facilitate faster torso uncoiling on the through swing (“X Factor”). If the same concept applies, would it not be more efficient to start with the feet less closed for the platform stance? Interested to hear your thoughts on this, not necessarily now but perhaps when you have the time and you feel it worthwhile discussing (if ever). For whatever it’s worth, I serve platform with feet closed in classical manner. However, I also played scratch golf for many years and the difference in concept has always been at the back of my mind.
Maybe the two best tennis youtubers. I would love to see video like this on the forehand. Jeff is a big "don't break the plane" guy where Tom has a specific video indicating it's fine for women (and sometimes men, like Gonzalez) to break the plane. Tom also likes to emphasize lag where Jeff thinks that's a no-no.
Not so fast… you can absolutely break the plane. I did and broke the top 100 with it. It’s not wrong. It’s about addressing what works best for each player and making the swing more efficient
@@TennisEvolution Yes, but you have an entire video called "fix your forehand backswing" showing how you are working on not breaking the plane, and rueing the fact that you broke the plane on tour and that no one pointed it out to you. ruclips.net/video/BFBloeoTD1o/видео.html
@@commonwealthedison5346 that’s correct and there is no ATP player today that I know if that breaks the plane. Why is that ? Because it’s more efficient
Great to see a collab between Tom and Jeff. Interesting how they do come from different places for serve technique. I think that Tom is right that leading with the elbow is critical and that working on good throwing motion is how to get there. It was interesting that Jeff mentioned keeping a loose grip to enable the racquet drop -- I've been experimenting with Tom's idea in a previous video that it's OK to have a firmer grip as long as you keep your elbow loose. This seems to work for me. Not sure how it affects my racquet drop, however.
I think there’s a balance, so depending on who I’m working with it I might say the complete opposite thing haha. But basically I approach it like my old fashioned cocktails, the perfect balance of sweet and bitter, or in this case loose and firm 😆
Great video. I do agree with Tom that alot of coaching can over complicate things and many people would be better focusing on the basics e.g in the case of the serve developinng the throwing motion first
3.5-4.0 player here with my own perspective. I believe Salzenstein style is more feel based and using big (lower/core) muscles that can lead to more relaxation upstairs. I’m personally experiencing better results with this than thinking about throwing mechanics, etc. For me, focusing on throwing leads me more into trying to “manufacture” the stroke rather than relaxing and “allowing” the stroke to happen.
The idea that improving the throwing motion will translate into a better serve is clear. Practiced throwing tennis balls from baseline to baseline. Eventually able to hit the back fence after two months. And over the back fence after three months. My 3.5 serve improved from 75 mph to 90 mph.
Interesting that you talked about the shoulder because, for me, once I took the shoulder out of the power equation, the power was easier and my shoulder never hurts from serving. My shoulder rotates, but I never try to use it for a power source...for me, the shoulder rotates, the elbow brakes (slows way down) and this sequence allows the forearm to pronate at a super quick rate which gives me the power I desire.
Your Jeff impression gave you more rotation. It's the one thing I noticed in your serve you weren't doing. You opened up quite a bit more trying to serve like him. Your left shoulder finished behind your right because of that more complete rotation. It looked really good, really natural.
@@TomAllsopp Yeah, after watching some more videos, I see what you're saying. Your rotation looks good. In the first few I saw you weren't rotating much.
The position of the racquet in the hand as it moves through the trophy position is critical. The importance of the ulnar deviation of the hand is underappreciated and under-discussed. Glad you brought it up here, but there should be more focus on that.
This is the "on edge" racket drop vs the "open face" racket drop talked about by Nick Aracic of intuitive tennis. You guys went to greater detail on it. Great teaching
@@TennisEvolution I have noticed some kids these days struggle to get their elbows up to shoulder height to hit a beginner serve. You experienced that? The spend all day with their elbows pinned to their side. The older I get the more i'm focussing on my flexibility.
@@TennisEvolution Yes, I very much appreciated this open chest idea. I really like your racquetflex approach of thinking about what your body is physically able to do and working to expand your body's capabilities. I'm going to be working on this - many thanks, Jeff!
On every high level serve the racket on the drop is away from the body not close to the head and body, which is the result of acceleration and opening the shoulder, body. A big misconception, in my opinion, is learning the serve with the racquet drop close to the head. I see the racket close to the head on the trophy pose but on the drop, I don't see any high-level tennis player doing that, for example, Fed, Djokovic, Nadal.
That forehand grip really does hinder your serve progress. I wasn't taught how to use a continental grip when I was a teenager. Now I am struggling to learn how to properly serve but I am making progress.
Jeff's serve is arm circular motion, spin the ball, and the forward momentun is generated by body, that's Pro serve. While Tom's throwing motion teaching can achive high end ameuter serve. After all Pros and ameuters play different tennis games. On the other hand, I still think Jeff's method is easier to follow and learn even for ameuters.
Pros lauch their bodies off ground (even for Ivo Karlovic) using their legs, brushing the balls while the whole body weight decending to the ground. These two combinations generate power and spin of the serves.
@@TomAllsopp At the contact point, the body starting to decent to the ground, that means the whole body weight forces on the ball, that generates a lot of momentum to the ball.
@@TomAllsoppThe analogy of throwing motion is hard to implement. Think of this, you throw a raquet to a moving ball, it's very hard to control, isn't it. While brushing the ball, using leg/body to generate forward momentum is a lot easier to implement, isn't it?
Sam Groth possibly the biggest service ever "breaks the plane"....he has a huge knee bend and sticks his front hip way out. Also lags the tip of the racket massively.
I think you are a little off on your understanding of how to throw a fastball. Most pitchers have external rotation much more similar to what Jeff was showing. Some older pitchers who have less external rotation range of motion will compensate by flexing the elbow more. Take a look at young vs. old Roger Clemens for example. Infielders will also flex the elbow (cock the ball by their ear) when throwing, but they are gaining quickness at the expense of speed. That’s not a good trade when serving.
@@marktace1 I usually get people telling me the serve isn’t a throwing motion. I think there’s a lot of similarities like you say. Pro athletes are always going to maximize the movements of each joint and muscle but for the majority of players they’re probably best to stay well within the range of movements.
Hi Tom, great to see you and Jeff in one video. This video from the guys from racquet flex helped me to get some extra power. ruclips.net/video/S10nJN2Y1og/видео.html
Both of these guys have weak rotation on the serve into the court. There is a physics remedy for this. BTW: the guy on the left clearly does not know how to throw a ball with power. Probably not from America.
You’ve posted 46 negative comments on my channel, you’d think you’d know who I am by now. I know who you are, and I’ve seen your serve and serve advice. Lol!
@@TomAllsopp Now if you can only count to 50. Those people who easily dismiss, what they don’t understand generally correlate, in direct proportion to their ignorance on the subject. In other words, they will never know until they try.
@@TomAllsopp The only thing I know about you is that you are afraid to come to one of my Physics of Tennis demonstrations: where I will sent up the radar gun and you can try to out-pace my serve - lots of luck (lol) with that . And bring along your buddy Salty Jeff from Colorado and he can learn some physics as well.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
It was great working with Jeff, and there will be a great backhand video on his channel shortly. His continuous serve motion helps with basic fundamentals. The loading the back leg is something I hadn't associated with the racket drop, and I'm excited to go experiment with it.
The back and forth between the. 2 coaches is wonderful..
This conversation was ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. Coached fifteen years and you two coming from different sides (in a way) and meeting in the middle, and not necessarily fully agreeing, while providing in depth ideas about the biomechanics that ALL MADE SENSE, and was full of thought provoking instruction. I often would bring a football (American) to a lesson to teach kids how to throw one on the plane to me, and then show them how the serve itself was more of an upward throw (that still goes forward). Elbow, wrist, racquet. This helped them get the continuous throwing motion down. As for me now, I've really been working on the wrist movement that Jeff spoke of at the top of the trophy pose. Kyrgios actually starts that wrist position at the beginning of his serve take back. (another channel pointed that out recently.) For some reason doing that move has helped me loosen up a lot. I think I can serve almost 80 now! (JK, 95, lol).
Yes, I'd love to see more back-and-forth like this! It's really cool to hear the coaches' different approaches. And the interesting thing is that they agree a lot on what good serves do - and indeed their own serves look super similar - but how do you get someone there? That's where some of the differences become more stark.
@@mayabergom What Tom did so well is explain how the serve is taught to different levels with different approaches. What works to get the 3.0/3.5 on track won't be the same for an advanced 8+ UTR, but the fundamentals taught early can lead to the possibility of a more advanced serve. The frying pan grip and square faced bump serve will obviously get no one there. At the advanced level, it is amazing how serves are like finger prints, each one different. What Sampras,Goran and Becker were doing in the 90's could not have been farther apart, and yet we consider all three to be some of the best serves of the time. Becker, for example, used an eastern forehand grip and his right leg actually came forward (while in the air) whereas most players kick their right leg back. What I like about Tom is that he is always teaching to find the mechanics that work for your particular "fingerprint" while staying true to what actually works. Your question of how do you get someone there, in Tom's case, requires him to have multiple answers at the ready knowing there might be very specific answers that work for specific players.
@@dougtennis5147 Well said. Totally agree.
Loved the video. I find that at 64 years old I get the most benefit from the guy who keeps it simple. 😀
Love the side by side slow motion comparison at 0:31. You can see the differences in how the racket drops "on edge" vs a more "open face" motion and how they relate to the teaching mechanics of throwing/leading with the elbow vs loading the back leg. Great discussion and insight!
One difference I noticed was the guy on the right drinks a lot less beer haha
Let me know what you think to this video. Thanks for watching!
Two good coaches with self confidence to show that there's more than one way to teach tennis.
Well done.
Interesting video guys. This just goes to show that there's more than one way to serve. In ny opinion the Sampras racket drop technique is the best but it is more advanced as you need more flexibility to do so.
However Stan Wawrinka has an old school back scratch racket drop and he can serve well over 130mph.
I think as long as you have good fundamentals and a good throwing motion, it doesn't matter too much how you drop the racket behind your back.
But to add fuel to the debate, Rick Macci does say that the racket drop is a dynamic movement due to the leg drive and hip rotation. This is how Roddick served over 150mph whilst only being 6ft 2.
Great debate and tutorial.
Great idea to do this guys. Really enjoyed you bouncing tips of each other
So, another Coach and myself was chatting about this today. Everyone has their own natural abilities that lends to each player. That is somewhat why professionals look different on their service motions. Some have more shoulder usage, etc. However, there is something about developing a throwing motion. Just throwing a lot....whether it's a football or baseball dramatically helps the service motion. I think because it's the most natural way to use the body if your throwing an object. Sometimes, I feel that as coaches we over analyze how a particular professional does something in their own natural state (however somethings are manufactured). But lending to a student's very own abilities is sometimes lost and learning something can get too "technical". There was a lot of nice tidbits and gems in this video. I really appreciate it. Also, I made my own weighted throwing object but it's so cheap it breaks all the time. 🤷♀️
Nice to see two coaches discuss in public without having the same way of teaching.
I would say the throwing motion and continious movement drill are quite the same and both a nice base and crucial before developing advanced stuff.
I would like to add that the throwing motion itself isn’t the hardest part. It’s throwing the racket at the bal (at the right time and place) which is the hardest. So just like on the groundstrokes rhythm, timing and spacing is crucial. So drills with a bigger ball (volleyball serve) or lighter ball wich travels slower so its makes the timing less hard, will help make the transition from a throwing a ball to throwing the racket at the ball. Finally, hitting the ball in the “small” box hinders the free throwing motion. So serving against the fence or between just in the singels court is crucial for this transition!
Best, Paul
Thanks for the great comment. I wish I could make things as easy and slow as you do in Europe. There’s a stigma here that slower balls etc are a hindering growth rather than helping. Players unfortunately find it patronizing.
Super excited! In my opinion, I prefer your throwing motion to Jef style. For me, Jef style is a little old and more advanced to practice.
Yes Jeff's style is too advanced for most players, but it still is the better serve. Very Sampras-like.
You can’t go from a panhandle grip serve to Sampras serve motion in one shot. All about progressions. Both emphasize steps. Excellent video!
Most interesting serve video I’ve ever seen. Fantastic dialogue.
Thank you!
I love that exchange of ideas between you guys. Thank you Tom! Been watching your videos lately. Addictive, I must say.
Thanks!
Where are you based Tom? I'm in Southern Cal
This is my dream vid on tennis. For everybody else it's a recommended MUST VID ON THE SERVE. JS was the 1st who did clear the mess with my serve. This mess was partially due to the instructional mess and not only in the RUclips but amongst pros as well. Believe me I got a lot of lessons and advices from the the former and present ATP and WTA PLAYERS alike. The result - two broken tendons of my shoulder and USD54K operation with Dr. LaFosse in Geneva. Though 40 min drive to his personal clinic in France to Aneccy could spare me more then USD30K..But I was not aware and it's not highly relevant here and now. Conclusion - if the one serves really well that one not necessarily can teach the serve not even well but even at all. The cheetah 🐆 can run, who argues? Can it teach you to run? Doubt it...
So the experience with JS was that you need the COACH and not the player. Prior I bumped into TA and his TPA Tennis JS was the only authority. Now they are two. And both made the unbelievable session in this vid. What is absolutely fantastic they address the slight nuances of their attitudes and this is besides being awesome by itself helps enormously to better understand the nature of the serve for the more facets you are aware of the less dogmatic and more flexible you are becoming in the comprehension of what really suits you...Awesome unsurpassed vid. Bravo 👏 👏 👏
Que buena pareja de instructores! Genial esta lección de saque con Jeff.
Tom, GREAT video. I agreed a lot of with how you teach the serve to intermediates and some of what Jeff says which applies to high performance players. There are different efficient ways to get a nice serve and win the point. People’s bodies and skills are different and there are multiple ways to help people. I’m a former ATP coach and have extensive USTA HP training and I’ve taught 60,000 hours and I’m constantly learning. I’ll continue to watch and learn from you. Keep it up.
Thanks Steve. Great points. Totally agree. It’s about working with people, not on people, figuring out what they need and helping them in the simplest way possible. Always learning, and definitely learned a few things from Jeff.
Awesome. Merry Christmas champ. And, I agree with you. First get them a good throwing motion, and then add the legs and the grip.
Two of my favorite online coaches...very cool
Thanks mate
Fascinating 🤩 Thanks for the great video. This comparison between your two teaching methods is one of the most interesting things I have seen about the serve
Woowww I never saw this coming!. So interesting having both of you sharing every word and guidelines with us.
Awesome!!!
This will be one of my most recurring videos for sure!!
Kudos for such a great idea....and suprise for all of your followers and Jeff´s too!
One of the best things about getting on court with Jeff is I feel like I have 20 great ideas for upcoming videos 😊
I took the throwing motion you essentially taught me and used that, it has worked very well to give me basic a flat serve with pronation, a top spin serve where I throw without rotating (so stay side on) only straightening up and pronating afterwards, and a slice serve using the topspin motion with side cut. I can even have a go at whipping the pronation like a pro at the cost of some accuracy on my flat serve. As long as I keep varying the serve type and direction it's good enough to win me points at my level, it doesn't wreck my body and it's a great start for "proper" serving so big thanks to you. However my motion however is far too compact to give me anything close to a 100mph serve. I have been using RacquetFlex's serve videos to take it forward from there (in my opinion they are clear and helpful). Suggest you have a look at them - they basically talk about the same thing Jeff does using the rotation/leg push to get the racket to drop along with a number of other helpful hints such racket angle in trophy phase, body angle and angle of arm in relation to body as you hit the serve.
Two great coaches! I'm playing tonight and will let you know how I go incorporating your ideas. Update.....focusing on elbow position, decent shoulder turn and a good throw and pronation definitely adds a few mph, it's just hard to remember everything in the heat of battle!
Absolutely! I must drill until it becomes muscle memory.
Exciting to see you guys
Thanks man...fun to nerd-out a bit..I'm into it!
haha absolutely
Thanks Tom, excellent video, Jeff is one lot my tennis heroes.
Great video and discussion.
Made me think about criticism in the comment sections on some of the shorts that Moratouglou has put out, and the thing most of these criticism have in common: they fail to see that teacher's advice has to be seen in context, which has to take into account the person in front of him, and what piece of advice will be most effective. Teaching a novice tennis player that is a highly skilled football (soccer) player will be very different from one that is a highly skilled frisbee golf player. One will have great movement skills and ability to leverage the legs and hips into the kinetic chain, the other will have great throwing skills and ability to leverage the upper body torso rotation.
Yes, I totally agree. Tips like "don't break the plane" or "load on the back leg" might be super helpful or supremely unhelpful - it all depends on where the player is in their development
Working with people, not on people is what coaching is all about!
PM is perhaps one of the greatest coaches ever and for sure now amongst live ones. Two things though with his serve teaching embarass me - the left arm not being tucked in but artificially going with the whole body anti-clockwise. Allegedly a-la Thiem. But Thiem does it after he INITIALLY TUCKES IN THE LEFT ARM TO THE CHEST. After and not instead.
Secondly, the idea of PM that for the slice serve ONE MUST AVOID PRONATION. With this regard I don't have the slightest idea how to comment this - so absurd and unreal the whole idea is...I am very much afraid that PM does teach the topspin serve without pronation as well OMG, though I'm not 100% sure. But JS does. And if this is the case, then they are both IMHO wrong, and wrong very very seriously.
Tom teaching in this regards looks the most modern, natural and up-to-date - one does pronation at any f... serve, as simple as that 💪🏿👋😊
@@omarsultanov362 Who is PM?
@@architennis Patrick Moratouglou
My two favourite tennis coaches
Great video. I am a 50 year old intermediate with two surgeries in my shoulder both because of torn muscles in rotator cuff due to serves, that is to bad serving technique. Can’t insist more on how the serve technique is important. Personally believe learning the throwing motion concentrated on the elbow is basic to not overuse the shoulder which can lead to serious injuries
Fantastic video! EXCELLENT EXCELLENT EXCELLENT!!!!
Excellent video. There are benefits in the advice from both of you depending on your individual ability
On the basketball/ throwing idea--love this. When I played, I was a good shooter but I didn't jump shoot. I'd catch the ball and release... What was interesting is that in photos I'd be a foot off the floor, but that was just the consequence of pushing up to release the ball 🏀
Loved this video!Amazing!Thank you!
I love your first principle way of thinking this is really crucial for tecquniqe optimisation, and correcting flaws, just beautiful simple fundamentals of the arm whip works, no complex leg drive sequences, which I thing are absolete, and I prefer your way that the other way because racquets are only 300 to 350 g, so this is not a heawy ball throw
Both coaches are GREAT. I think that Jeff is perfect for advanced players. The other coach is someone who would connect really well with beginners.
Thanks. I connect well with advanced players but yes I’m discussing some basic fundamentals that are great for beginners here - Tom Allsopp
Amazing video, Tom and Jeff. Thank you for the outstanding dialog showing abundant mutual respect, and understanding that there is more than one way to get a great serve. Very much depends on the student, and a great instructor will help him/her get the what works optimally for them.
Tom - on a separate issue, I’d like to ask you about your perspective on feet positioning on the platform serve, given your excellent grasp of biomechanics whilst also possessing an advanced level golf swing. Traditional teaching has the feet closed to the line of serve direction for platform stance. This is completely at odds with modern golf swing ideology where the idea is to create resistance by differential shoulder and hip rotation going back to facilitate faster torso uncoiling on the through swing (“X Factor”). If the same concept applies, would it not be more efficient to start with the feet less closed for the platform stance?
Interested to hear your thoughts on this, not necessarily now but perhaps when you have the time and you feel it worthwhile discussing (if ever). For whatever it’s worth, I serve platform with feet closed in classical manner. However, I also played scratch golf for many years and the difference in concept has always been at the back of my mind.
fantastic!
All of us can learn so much from these two OUTSTANDING coaches! 👍👏🎾🎾🎾🎾
Maybe the two best tennis youtubers. I would love to see video like this on the forehand. Jeff is a big "don't break the plane" guy where Tom has a specific video indicating it's fine for women (and sometimes men, like Gonzalez) to break the plane. Tom also likes to emphasize lag where Jeff thinks that's a no-no.
Not so fast… you can absolutely break the plane. I did and broke the top 100 with it. It’s not wrong. It’s about addressing what works best for each player and making the swing more efficient
Just I can't recall Jeff is against the lag. Otherwise big thumbs up!
@@TennisEvolution Yes, but you have an entire video called "fix your forehand backswing" showing how you are working on not breaking the plane, and rueing the fact that you broke the plane on tour and that no one pointed it out to you. ruclips.net/video/BFBloeoTD1o/видео.html
@@commonwealthedison5346 that’s correct and there is no ATP player today that I know if that breaks the plane. Why is that ? Because it’s more efficient
@@omarsultanov362 Here you go. ruclips.net/video/dql2MbU5Lps/видео.html
Great to see a collab between Tom and Jeff. Interesting how they do come from different places for serve technique. I think that Tom is right that leading with the elbow is critical and that working on good throwing motion is how to get there. It was interesting that Jeff mentioned keeping a loose grip to enable the racquet drop -- I've been experimenting with Tom's idea in a previous video that it's OK to have a firmer grip as long as you keep your elbow loose. This seems to work for me. Not sure how it affects my racquet drop, however.
I think there’s a balance, so depending on who I’m working with it I might say the complete opposite thing haha. But basically I approach it like my old fashioned cocktails, the perfect balance of sweet and bitter, or in this case loose and firm 😆
Great video, lots to unpick. 👏👏👏
Great video. I do agree with Tom that alot of coaching can over complicate things and many people would be better focusing on the basics e.g in the case of the serve developinng the throwing motion first
3.5-4.0 player here with my own perspective. I believe Salzenstein style is more feel based and using big (lower/core) muscles that can lead to more relaxation upstairs. I’m personally experiencing better results with this than thinking about throwing mechanics, etc. For me, focusing on throwing leads me more into trying to “manufacture” the stroke rather than relaxing and “allowing” the stroke to happen.
Great stuff. More of this kind of thing guys. 👍
You two are amazing technical coaches, where in socal are you guys now?
Great content / ideas 👍
Hi I like how this is expanded. If a player turns the elbow in to early without a leaving the tossing arm up shoulder tilt you can get arm problems
Best TAI on RUclips collab
Great video with you two together 👍
Have you considered sidearm motion as per-drill to OH serve with conti grip?
The idea that improving the throwing motion will translate into a better serve is clear.
Practiced throwing tennis balls from baseline to baseline. Eventually able to hit the back fence after two months. And over the back fence after three months. My 3.5 serve improved from 75 mph to 90 mph.
Awesome!
Awesome!! Thanks
Interesting that you talked about the shoulder because, for me, once I took the shoulder out of the power equation, the power was easier and my shoulder never hurts from serving. My shoulder rotates, but I never try to use it for a power source...for me, the shoulder rotates, the elbow brakes (slows way down) and this sequence allows the forearm to pronate at a super quick rate which gives me the power I desire.
awesome!! love it
Thanks Peter!
If that’s you… haha
@@TomAllsopp It's me lol
9:00 good question
What percentage of the body weight should get loaded on the back leg in Jeff's serve?
Your Jeff impression gave you more rotation. It's the one thing I noticed in your serve you weren't doing. You opened up quite a bit more trying to serve like him. Your left shoulder finished behind your right because of that more complete rotation. It looked really good, really natural.
That’s not an issue I have with my serve. If anything, I open up too much when I serve. I stay more sideways doing Jeff’s motion
@@TomAllsopp Yeah, after watching some more videos, I see what you're saying. Your rotation looks good. In the first few I saw you weren't rotating much.
Yes for throwing motion vs continuous swing. Just look at best servers among shortest players
The position of the racquet in the hand as it moves through the trophy position is critical. The importance of the ulnar deviation of the hand is underappreciated and under-discussed. Glad you brought it up here, but there should be more focus on that.
This is the "on edge" racket drop vs the "open face" racket drop talked about by Nick Aracic of intuitive tennis.
You guys went to greater detail on it.
Great teaching
help me alot
For the racket drop behind back, one main issue that I have is I wasn't flexible enough.
Jeff : some older students can't open their chest
TPA thinking to himself : you've got elderly students trying to turn pro?
😁
It means an older student should work on opening their chest with proper corrective exercises
@@TennisEvolution I have noticed some kids these days struggle to get their elbows up to shoulder height to hit a beginner serve. You experienced that? The spend all day with their elbows pinned to their side. The older I get the more i'm focussing on my flexibility.
@@TennisEvolution Yes, I very much appreciated this open chest idea. I really like your racquetflex approach of thinking about what your body is physically able to do and working to expand your body's capabilities. I'm going to be working on this - many thanks, Jeff!
@@mayabergom You're welcome! Happy to help.
On every high level serve the racket on the drop is away from the body not close to the head and body, which is the result of acceleration and opening the shoulder, body. A big misconception, in my opinion, is learning the serve with the racquet drop close to the head. I see the racket close to the head on the trophy pose but on the drop, I don't see any high-level tennis player doing that, for example, Fed, Djokovic, Nadal.
Agreed. As the racket drops you must be simultaneously moving/throwing the elbow.
12:00
That forehand grip really does hinder your serve progress. I wasn't taught how to use a continental grip when I was a teenager. Now I am struggling to learn how to properly serve but I am making progress.
Jeff's serve is arm circular motion, spin the ball, and the forward momentun is generated by body, that's Pro serve. While Tom's throwing motion teaching can achive high end ameuter serve. After all Pros and ameuters play different tennis games.
On the other hand, I still think Jeff's method is easier to follow and learn even for ameuters.
Pros lauch their bodies off ground (even for Ivo Karlovic) using their legs, brushing the balls while the whole body weight decending to the ground. These two combinations generate power and spin of the serves.
Plenty of pros use my technique.
@@MrTolearn they’re hitting with their whole body weight descending? How’s that help? You mean they’re leaning forwards?
@@TomAllsopp At the contact point, the body starting to decent to the ground, that means the whole body weight forces on the ball, that generates a lot of momentum to the ball.
@@TomAllsoppThe analogy of throwing motion is hard to implement. Think of this, you throw a raquet to a moving ball, it's very hard to control, isn't it. While brushing the ball, using leg/body to generate forward momentum is a lot easier to implement, isn't it?
The serve is much like throwing a football or basketball; a Hail Mary throw
One is shoulder lever, the other is body levers.
Sam Groth possibly the biggest service ever "breaks the plane"....he has a huge knee bend and sticks his front hip way out. Also lags the tip of the racket massively.
Somehow I have a completely different technique, I don't throw, I simply reach out.
The Kinetic Chain concept has some broken links in it.
I think you are a little off on your understanding of how to throw a fastball. Most pitchers have external rotation much more similar to what Jeff was showing. Some older pitchers who have less external rotation range of motion will compensate by flexing the elbow more. Take a look at young vs. old Roger Clemens for example. Infielders will also flex the elbow (cock the ball by their ear) when throwing, but they are gaining quickness at the expense of speed. That’s not a good trade when serving.
I wasn’t talking about a pro baseball player throwing a fastball. But I understand the mechanics of that and it’s not the same as a serve.
@@TomAllsopp ruclips.net/video/MVAjxBb6HLY/видео.html. Much closer than you might realize.
@@marktace1 well yeah, I promote a throwing action, and I understand how a throwing action works for baseball, but I don’t teach it to my 3.5 players
@@TomAllsopp fair enough.
@@marktace1 I usually get people telling me the serve isn’t a throwing motion. I think there’s a lot of similarities like you say. Pro athletes are always going to maximize the movements of each joint and muscle but for the majority of players they’re probably best to stay well within the range of movements.
Hi Tom, great to see you and Jeff in one video. This video from the guys from racquet flex helped me to get some extra power. ruclips.net/video/S10nJN2Y1og/видео.html
Far more like a volleyball spike than a linear throwing motion
At the basic level, yes. Not enough arm rotation for an advanced serve ruclips.net/video/-NzZqFwBX8M/видео.htmlsi=pLDHbqR6yd_daWFg
SET THE BELL NOTIFICATION ON YOUR CHANNEL PRONTO! At the moment is not possible and you are losing viewership.
It works for some other people, but other people have also said this. What message are you getting? My settings say its working.
Both of these guys have weak rotation on the serve into the court. There is a physics remedy for this. BTW: the guy on the left clearly does not know how to throw a ball with power. Probably not from America.
You’ve posted 46 negative comments on my channel, you’d think you’d know who I am by now. I know who you are, and I’ve seen your serve and serve advice. Lol!
@@TomAllsopp Now if you can only count to 50. Those people who easily dismiss, what they don’t understand generally correlate, in direct proportion to their ignorance on the subject. In other words, they will never know until they try.
@@TomAllsopp The only thing I know about you is that you are afraid to come to one of my Physics of Tennis demonstrations: where I will sent up the radar gun and you can try to out-pace my serve - lots of luck (lol) with that . And bring along your buddy Salty Jeff from Colorado and he can learn some physics as well.
@@drbonesshow1 I’d love to come! Can I bring beers?
@@drbonesshow1 You’ve got nothing to try. I’ve tried being wank