I've been playing VSH since 2011 and I only played the new VScript version after it was officially put into the game. I definitely found it strange that all the banned weapons were not banned and for the most part the rebalances that have been made to the mode have solved some of the problems. So far the only overpowered weapon is the Half-Zatoichi, aside from Saxton Punch the person playing Saxton has to hope the Demo doesn't keep landing his hits. I have seen new players that have clearly never played as hale before just get swarmed by Demos and don't run because they don't know any better.
I doubt they have but a lot of the changes they've made are in line with my opinions. Who knows. I just want to see the gamemode do well, and I think they're in the same boat.
I really hope the creator of Vscript VS Saxton Hale continues to develop the gamemode (even after if it would be hypothetically be brought on officially)
Very insightful. I played on testing servers for the vscript version and encountered many of the same issues. Half of the classes felt obsolete in the face of this buffed Saxton, and any semi-competent Hale that knew how to just spam the space bar left the other half dead in the water too. I dread when the VSH maps on Casual actually go online, because I forsee them being a very... interesting experience, to say the least. I feel as if it'll need some major, major tweaking to actually be fun for both parties.
As I was clicking on this video I thought this was going to be a very bad or weird take but my opinions completely changed as I watched this video and I think everyone should take a minute to watch at least HALF of the video before disliking and commenting something negative because I think there will be something that we can all or at least partially agree on. I can't help but completely agree with most of the things you said. This version of Saxton compared to the old one is practically night and day in some cases. Engineers being nearly useless with easy to destroy nests and no knockback making the class unfun and Melee classes having almost no compensations for their nerfs make them pointless as well. Hale having basically a budget fly mode. Hale also having some horrible moments of red putting 40 stickies on his spawn which ruins the start or outright makes the hale spawn with a chunk of hp taken out of him when he already has reduced hp which makes him so much more killable and no modifications to certain items like Cloak and Dagger and Holiday Punch and even the Baby Face's Blaster make games either unfun for the Hale or unfun for the Red Team. If I wrote about half of the points you said this would turn out as a college essay in length however I do think it could be added to TF2 as long as it had some reworks with weapon balancing and Hale balancing as well. For 6 months it's not the worst balancing I've ever seen but nor is it the best as well but time will tell us if it will get further worked on and rebalanced to be an even more fun mode than the sourcemod potentially. Great video and keep it up.
@@initial_sequence I was referring to a commentor in this who has since deleted said comment. It was along the lines of "This is the exact reason I didn't want VSH in tf2" hence my response
I thought this video would have mental gymnastics on par with Under the Mayo's take on Ultrakill, but nope, it's actually a good video. VSH definitely isn't ready, but with appropriate changes, it'll be ready "eventually" whatever that ends up meaning.
@@Alicaso the video was decent tbh and thats coming from a person who p ranked every single level and the criticism wasnt that bad the main point of being able to play like shit and the game not punishing you is a valid criticism even hakita added a way to counter balance it but the solution mayo gave is the dumb stuff ultrakill isnt made for ammo and the freshness meter is a way more smarter way to stop abuse but the ultrakill fan base had mental breakdown over the ultrakill fans are obsessed joke to the point they had multiple videos over one joke to prove how they aint obsessed lol
@@iammadeoutofstarstuff957 The guy's fine when he talk Resident Evil, survival horrors, or Doom(mostly); but he has been kind of an ass a fair ammount of time. So it's warranted.
a lot of people will dunk on this guy now but the official VSH has made so many of the changes suggested in this video that i think the devs have seen it
I love how I can tell you were a regular on TFF back in the day from the music choice alone. Thanks for bringing back the memories for the countless hours I spent there.
TFF was a VSH server, like actually 10 years ago is when I started playing that server. It had a lot of different custom weapons and abilities that made it super fun. Medic had a bungee medigun before quickfix Engineer could stickyjump with his dispenser Pyro could use primary ammo as a jetpack, comboed with flare jumping. It was the perfect server imo, slowly died over time, not quite sure why. Fond memories all around, and banger music too, used a lot of Red vs Blue for their bosses.
@@Knav_ish Aah. I’ve seen servers with the flying pyro stat but I can’t say I was playing vsh back then. I mostly played wacky maps with more “normal” gamemodes.
The TFF server are still up and running. There is the X10 server that is usually empty but sometimes we do a weekend play session, and then there is my “TFF Extra” custom X1 server with some elements and weapon stats shared with the main TFF server 😀 I may share the discord here but I need to make sure the uploaded is okay with that first.
I've played VSH for some time now and while I agree with some points made in the video, I much prefer Hale's movement in VScript VSH over the Plugin version since the movement of the Plugin version felt too limited to be efficiently used especially in higher player numbers. Maybe have Hale's "superhop" have a 1 sec cooldown but everything else is fine as it is. Knockback by one player is an annoyance but I understand its necessity. It however becomes very frustrating to deal when there's lots of players. A lot of players tend to fight in a huge group which made it difficult to kill even one person due to the high amount of knockback you take. The reduced knockback in the Vscript version made it much better to deal with a group of players. I do still agree that melee weapons should deal more knockback. Also I think it would be better to re-title the video to something like "Vscript VSH is not ready for casual TF2" since the current title sounded like don't want the gamemode to be added at all, which isn't true since you just want some aspects of the gamemode to get some fixes and balance changes so it's a better experience for casual.
A big part of the mode is making it fun to play as both sides while not making one side too strong. Hale currently is way too strong. Hale wins like 70% of the rounds currently. If someone knows how to play hale well in vscript, they cant lose. Maybe a difficulty slider would be a better fix than knockback. But 90% of the players on the server lose 70% of the time. Its just not fun to play as Mercs.
@@Knav_ish Doesn't seem to be the case in the released version. I see mercs and Hale both win, and in fact Hale seems too weak at lower player counts as his health is reduced
@@Thornskade as he said in the video, a single crit Scottish resistance sticky trap can kill hale at low player counts, which is why he has a problem with no weapons being altered or banned
something important which wasn't brought up, how will this affect community servers? if VALVe introduces "casual VSH" with all its bells & whistles while "community VSH" still exists, would that not create a divide in the community on which version to play? would it also not funnel players away from community servers which are already struggling with pop counts, on top of VALVe burying it in the matchmaking UI?
@@Small_child_punter Well community servers already have the upper hand of offering more bosses than just Saxton Hale, with their own perks and rage attacks.
Personally, though I played a bit of plug in VSH beforehand, playing the Vscript version definitely encouraged me try things like Freak Fortress 2 out as well. Unless Casual VSH gets the same boss variety (which is incredibly unlikely except for a possible Scream Fortress version) I don’t think community VSH will be going anywhere.
That's some very well-thought balance thoughts in this video. I think you should send it to the creator of VSH vscript plugin as a feedback. I really want to see VSH among official gamemodes, but for now it is really nit ready yet.
I think the best case scenario would be a pd_watergate type situation, where Valve gave a development build of sorts to the creator(s) and they work on it from there to fit it better into base tf2. but its been years since the invasion update happened so Valve might not do that kind of thing anymore. Like I said, its probably the best case, but not everything always works out like that.
Yeah that'd be the ideal, and with all of the TF2 voiceactors making a resurgence I'm guessing they're more than interested in working with valve more on TF2. They have everything they need, except developers working on the game.
@@Knav_ishhopefully they plan to do that, maybe the plan is to release it before hand to allow more devs to work on the game after the surge, and then afterwards do what happened with watergate pretty much, Would also be a perfect time in that plan to do things like make a official saxton model (for gameplay) made by valve and get the official voices to do the lines
Honestly I think balancing the gamemode around maps like Tinyrock should've been the way to go from the start. I playtested Distillery before it was released and they had completed so much of the map that no one could really give feedback unless the mapmakers were to think "sure, let's scrap this entire thing!". Vscript VSH is best played in smaller maps that keep players on their toes, giving Saxton too much room to maneuver makes matches extremely campy for the person playing Saxton and boring for the ones playing the OG classes.
One thing that wasn't even touched on in this video is that a feature of this caliber should NOT be added with vscript only. Saxton is not made with being implemented and built upon in mind. Things like broken particles in other servers after playing the map, no minimal viewmodels for Saxton and no ways of testing Saxton's abilities for yourself make the entire experience user-hostile. If this gamemode gets added, it needs a ground-up overhaul from a team that can put professional time into it.
@@t4t4allthere is one way to test play hale and that’s by typing “vsh_tinyrock” or any of the other maps in console and adding one bot to the other team using “tf_bot_add 1”. It’s a bit of a round about way just to test one class but it does work.
Let's be honest, there's no way Valve would actually add an entire new gamemode in a "holiday-sized" update but atleast I think they could add something similar to VSH as a Halloween map. That way the map creators can also use all the Halloween bosses that are already inside the game and the map will have more boss variety. silly update: ye it gud. ive played like a 2 hour long match of vsh nucleus and had alot fun as both hale and the mercenaries. there were also alot of times when a bad player got hale and just walked foward pressing m1 without using his movement and theyd get rekt by a squad of katana demoknights. so ye hale takes skill.
Just curious, did you watch that the creator made a video discussing most of what you talk about in this video? It's also stated that it's a reimaging of VSH, not the old one
Yeah, I saw that he made a video about it but hes only got part 1 out, and it moreso goes over the history and why they changed it. Not necessarily what makes good balance. Maybe his part 2 etc will shed more light on their opinions or reasons for balance. Right now it just seems like its their personal preference. Same reason that my personal preference is more towards skilled gameplay.
The issue is that the work on their end is laughable. The gammode is already made, they're just really fucking bad at doing things a game company should do.
If anything, valve seriously need to make tf2 actually viable for custom content, i was actually completely shocked when i saw a different viewmodel in tf2 and i kind of just realised that calve had made custom servers work with tin scraps for years, like it's 2023 and we are still using the poll vote menu for chat tags and trails
VSH simply isn't made for competitive play, it is only fun, when you are here to mess around. If Hale knows his moveset he can easily crush the mercenaries unless they go full meta strats.
Yeah, that's honestly the most fair counterpoint. I think once they are at a good balance for most players, I'd want to host/play some server with higher skill players personally, but not something to force on others.
Same it just isn't fun, when Hale is OP and projectile classes being so incredibly underwhelming with the Valve version I don't want to get into much detail, but it certainly isn't great.
@@DetwandI've been playing many hours now and if anything Hale seems a bit weak at times, but honestly, it seems overall well balanced for everyone involved and considering newer players etc. Plus lots of fun and funny moments
The game in its current state is too early to judge balance when players aren't good enough yet. Once people get better they'll have to nerf things like Hales Movement. Right now it's fine because everyone's learning but most games are just a steamroller in one direction or the other imo. Depends heavily on what servers you play also, community is almost always going to have more committed and stronger players overall
People keep commenting "well they did anyway," but it literally doesn't work and crashes the server if even used on the new update, so in the end he was right edit: it took an hour and they've already disabled the vsh maps for crashing
I agree with most points, but comparison of time to balance is a bit silly. It builds off old VSH and FF2, which means he knows what works and all balance work is ready, he just built on top of it. Problem is that he chooses to actively nerf everything he saw as an issue ie Demoknights, engies or spies into the ground. Adding more things like climbing to all classes not just Sniper is good. making the boss more powerful too if its not overboard. It doesnt really undo old VSH as those community will there be all the time. It also wont be in TF2 officially for long. Its just for summer event. So it might work like halloween annually. I would call it VSH2. It somewhat drastic in some changes. I preffer old VSH/FF2, but i like vscript version too
While Vscript VSH is good right now, and better than it was before. Its still kinda fucked up, most rounds end with hale capping because a few engis are chilling out in the skybox. Fun but dysfunctional.
I think it should as tf2 needs a new gamemode in general (especially one that has a long history in the community). However it will need updates over time.
@@Small_child_punter are you seriously gonna have a argument with a random stranger about a comment they made? and by the looks of it, you liked my reply, so shut up
Great video! I have been thinking about a lot of these points when just playing the mode. To fix Saxton Punch I would base it on a mix of damage and kills. For example every 100 damage taken gives you 20% charge and each kill gives you 10% charge. (Numbers are arbitrary and would be balanced accordingly). This would both reward aggressiveness while still allowing Hale to have a bunch of guaranteed punches without him running away. Cloak and Dagger spies/Trolldiers are balanced by the control point. Stalling against Hale is less useful than you'd think because Hale caps fast. Knockback issue is honestly the worst part of the mode. To fix it I would simply make Hale SLIGHTLY more susceptible to knockback overall but then much more when Hale is in the air. However, the slam/charge would give him complete knockback immunity albeit on a cool down. Also make the super jump a little slower overall. I like that he can spam it tbh, but it is too useful all the time. With knockback vulnerability in the air, Hale's will need to stay on land to approach groups of enemies. Now Hale has to stay on land to not be blown back but still has options for cheeky sentries or players. Also make it so Hale can punch away stickies with all 3 of his specials.
I haven't played the Vscript VSH so I can't hold a firm opinion on gameplay, but looking at footage of it; Saxton feels.. off thematically His voice actor doesn't feel anywhere near as aggressive as the SourceMod one and it feels like he's scared of hurting people's feelings in a game with voicelines like "Scotland is NOT a real country, YOU are an englishman in a dress!" I really hope they redo the voicelines for Saxton if they're serious about VSHcript because he feels so afraid of hurting people's feelings and feels like he doesn't have any bite behind his words at all It also feels really weird not having a rage meter from the gameplay I've seen, it's a signature part of VSH gameplay; silently keeping track of if Hale has rage or not and how to counteract it, as well as making the best use of your Rage as hale. It being gone feels so, empty, like there's no big event to look forward to as I'm playing on either team The fact there's no cooldown on the Super Jump though is insane.. that thing is a VITAL movement option and extremely powerful, it gets you out of sticky situations, get the jump on people out in the open and is overall an extremely powerful positioning tool that needs a tradeoff; having it whenever you want is.. crazy, even without having played the mod I can tell that's absurd. I wonder if the VSHcript developer is interested in buffing the mercs to fight that level of absurdity though, or bring things back to be more grounded with their roots? Another thing I noticed is occasionally Saxton gets a super punch which acts as a "one shot" critical punch, another thing I'm questionable of since when's the last time you got one-shot in TF2 without warning and felt like it well deserved? Maybe you could airblast crit rockets or outrun a phlog pyro, but you can't outrun or outdamage a 10,000 health tank with super jumps on his side, if he wants to get a cheeky one-shot off on you, he's getting it Up to 7:15 in the video now and jesus, how did they not see putting powerful abilities on a cooldown as a way to encourage stalling as hale? Even vanilla tf2 has mechanics to encourage you getting in there as medic by rewarding more uber for non-overhealed players. This gamemode could be really fun, but definitely needs more time to cook; I really hope it can reach full bloom before getting added to the game
Completely agree with the voiceacting comments, probably a bit is nostalgia, and I get why they'd cut lines like "you fight like a woman", but man it just doesnt hold the same impact, I had a whole segment I cut out that went over this more. They seeming left out actual voicelines in favor of so many Ironic ones poking fun at the old version of the mode, it just feels out of place for the actual ingame version. I was expecting it just for the trailer or something. Voicelines trail off, and they dont hold the same feeling when you hear them. I'd say its worth giving a try but in its current state, hale is just way too strong.
I love hales old voice lines. He was an asshole. You're right about that, he's too soft. He sounds more like a camp counselor than a sadistic bully. "what's the matter, girls? Dontcha wanna live forever?" is my absolute favorite line.
Aged like milk. Sure it's a bit buggy rn but when they fix it it'll probably be the most popular gamemode. This update caused tf2 to have more players online than its ever had in its entire history. Amazing update and it'll be even better once they fix VHS and add the community fixes
The issue runs far deeper than being just a little buggy. VScripts are quite literally not enabled in casual, and I doubt Valve is willing to make an exception for one game mode. Even assuming they do, VScript plugins are a maintenance nightmare; every single time a VScript plugin is updated, that update must be applied to every map which runs that plugin, and then the player needs to download the new versions of each map, which is a ridiculous amount of bloat just to update a game mode, especially over time with multiple updates for the sake of long-term maintenance.
@@spookmaster7737 This is exactly what I warned about back when the VSH VScript version was announced. VScript may open the gates for maps with more exotic perks and twists over existing game modes, but implementing a whole new game mode with it will quickly become a nightmare to maintain since you can't decouple the mode from the map itself, having to update each and every map for any change or improvement to the mode itself. This might doom the game mode to be limited to a small pool of maps dumped into the "Misc" category.
coming back to this video over a year later to say i think its funny as fuck that it took lizardofoz over a year to realize that hale needed a 3 second cooldown on his jump
I can definitely agree with a good amount of points here. And I can definitely agree on the point near the end of the Summer Update being nearly the only chance it has to get in, and how a best case scenario, and a likely scenario imo, once added, the people behind the map and the potted plant janitor at Valve can continue releasing fixes and changes to the mode after it’s been released.
as a vsh enthusiast that has quite a bit of experience playing on sourcemod vsh, the vscript counterpart is really lacking on red side with necessary buffs such as knockback and the damage consistency of backstabs and market gardens not being as powerful (there's plenty more, but i won't drag this on too much). saxton hale has a lot going for him with a revamped jump mechanic, making it easier for newcomers to understand, simply pressing jump does a "brave jump", the charge giving saxton hale a lot more mobility than that was originally intended in the sourcemod plugin, and the saxton punch mechanic that demolishes everything in saxton hale's path with one punch. i agree with the whole premise of the video. however, i think vscript wasn't really intended for serious play or for red side to be favored in the slightest because it isn't really represented in the gameplay at all and in saxton hale winrate being higher than that of red. vscript takes a lot of creative liberties than that of sourcemod and the appeal is obviously there with no download wait for models and other assets needed for vsh normally so it's easy to pick up and play for the average player. all of this being said, this has very little appeal to already existing vsh players that are so used to sourcemod that every change almost seems jarring but somewhat familiar. hopefully some changes come about where things are added. it would be a lot more tolerable if brave jump and weigh down had a cooldown along with his saxton punch having a rage meter instead of every 30 seconds, as well as general knockback and remove his eyelander range. (it's a bit longer) anyway, you make good content and have a good one.
I'm guessing you're referencing the video by the creator where they mention wanting to balance so that red has a 60%+ ish winrate which makes it more fun for everyone. Completely agree that they missed the mark, not sure what the endgoal is but I'm fairly certain its not just SourceMod VSH 2.0. Guess I'll have to wait and see what they come up with. I'm also sticking to normal SourceMod whenever I personally play, for now at least.
@@Knav_ish i wasn't referencing the video by the creator, nor have i really kept up with the developments of vscript vsh as it isn't really of my liking. all my ideas and conceptualizations are influenced by the original sourcemod rendition of vsh. partly due to the reason why vscript vsh is such a far cry from the original is because of lizard of oz's long absence in the vsh community only being active in it's creation in the beginning and now in the development of something completely new.
4:17 depending on how old the footage is there is a pretty good chance thats me in the clip! Used to play on that server all the time back in the day and this video has reminded me why I used to love it so much. Thanks for bringing back some great memories for me and for the amazing video!
@@TheDovahkitty You might be thinking of Senor Brown, he was the one cracked with the DH, especially on military Area. Wartz was a heavy player who would scream on mic lol. Both interesting characters
11:35, the stally weapon are nerfed if you see it's actually hitting hale or press f to the teammate that use them if you're spectating. Jumper weapon no longer has +200% extra ammo (So stalling with it require ammo management now), Sandman is nerfed by valve to (death and) not stun and is subject Ly the worst scout melee weapon that can only do 45 damage on ranged hit, 105 damage like other melees and make you more likely die to Saxton's Saxton Punch AoE or Ground Slam AoE. Holiday Punch's forced taunt and literally every stun weapon existed's stun only last ~2 seconds before hale automatically superjump and ready to use his other ability. Eureka effect's teleport ability is negated by smaller map than in the plug-in version and Saxton Hale's speedy movement and ability. Saxton Hale's AoE damage can hit baby face scout easily and reduce the boost, if not all of it (due to 1 damage able to reduce 3 % of the boost ratio). Natasha only slow hale 15% of the time (Although this bring new problem to the gamemode and that is unpredictable and unfair RNG), Hiding with any cloak watches will publicly shame the player with voice lines (Emotional damage > Actual Nerf because brain is very complex organ), also the time you say Hale's ability based on timer encourage stalling is complete the opposite due to stalling as hale is hard because the merc has ranged & mobility weapon so fleeing is very hard, capturing the point without fighting the mercs first is basically death sentence unless you can dodge 1000 bullets and projectiles like a touhou player and the more you stall the more Jar of Piss, Jar of Not Milk, Bauble, Sandman Ball, Flying Guillotine, Can of Radioactive, Banner Charge, Ubercharge, Charged sniper shot, Sentries, you have to deal with, due to that, hale player will almost never stall and stalling against him only make him get more use of his ridiculous ability and after several time passed, control points is available and fighting hale on there is also death sentence since you almost can't dodge his punch in small area. Also meleeing Hale is basically parry his melee attack (and deal 195 base damage because almost every melee is crit boosted) so you don't need make every knockback weapon in your loadout (because the ridiculous knockback every crit weapon has and hale's 1.2x melee range can't negate that unless his back is on a wall) and uber is basically parry his Saxton Punch (and force hale to use regular punch instead) and other damage ability and attack. The gamemode is not perfect though (META weapon in plug-in like eyelander, deadringer, crusader's cross-bow, uber-saw and kunai still META and using other weapon lower your chance of winning even though they tried to nerf it by reducing knock back of every demoman's sword and cross-bow no longer crit-boosted if not last mann standing, and every melee except demoman's sword and the disciplinary action now has +60% range and deploy 25% faster, however they make Hybrid knight no longer can deal thousands damage by just shooting hale due to shield no longer grant critical hit to any primaries assuming they have basic projectile aiming skill, scout no longer can be annoying little fly that deal miniscule damage but pain in the ass to hit due to Hale is more Mobile than him and scout need to deal damage to Hale due to Hale's more ability uses the more time passed, and soldier using Liberty Launcher + Gunboat is also no longer deal miniscule damage but pain in the ass to hit due to healthkit is more easily reachable spot [to hale too] and no longer heal 100% of his health and he need to market garden/melee hale to knockback hale in order not getting 195 of his health depleted, playing as demo knight and not using eyelander make hale no longer 1 shot you [after he broke your shield] with >97,5% health and no damage vulnerability because hale deal 195 base damage in vscript version [200 > 195] and other balance change are listed in wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Versus_Saxton_Hale#cite_note-22)
As the host of the best VSH server out there, I like a lot of the stuff VScript is doing. Only problem is it's too much different from how my server balance evolved over time for me to just "throw it in". Though I did port it to sourcemod to fuck around with :)
16:41 so glad you said that because it happened to me and I have 32 gigs of ram! I was worried the brand new pc I just built already had something wrong with it.
I don't really think you _should_ be able to melee Saxton. Man can canonically explode an ancient ape with a punch and a dude cosplaying a knight can tolerate that? More than that original Hale is hella sluggish. Any pair of sentries turn you into hiding rat while everyone is chipping you off until you at least getting a chace to assault the nest and only rhen everything else in sight
I'm not saying getting locked into a corner by a pair of sentries is fun by any means, just that the reduction from too much knockback to 0 knockback is a little much. A Good demoknight can definitely take on hale in his current state too, Half zatoichi can out-heal hales damage if you dodge a few hits. I don't think knockback is an end all be all solution but its kinda hard to play anything other than Zatochi in its current state with no knockback.
I see that clickbaity title but it did make me click, I do agree it needs more work. Also about the video I feel like your talking is slow that i had to put it on 2x, it's okay if you are talking a lot of things and informing and debating about things like this but it could be more faster. If not faster then more clear. Sorry if I'm being nitpicky. Also I love the funny clip at the end.
Rewatching you're definitely right that its slow. I watched on 2x speed and it felt like it was meant to be watched at that speed. I'm not sure how I didn't really notice. Especially the intro and second half can be played at 2x and not miss anything.
I disagree, new vsh is much more fun than the old one. Saxton actually feels powerful unlike the old limited bosses. The only good boss in old VSH was the vagineer
Honestly you're right. I played as Hale 3 times. First time I had a 20 second lag spike, still won. Second time was a 5 minute lag spike, lost. Third time wasn't even close since I actually had good performance. Now I feel like Saxton Hale is too powerful, Hale gets around 1000 hp per every player. So he has like 20K hp, he's really mobile since he can spam the super jump. The explosive punch can take out a horde, his windup attack makes him faster, his elbow slam. So Hale can just fly across the map, elbow slam, punch and repeat. If you get surrounded just do the explosive punch. I'd also like to mention that the sticky jumper has been modified by lowering it's ammo. The only way I see people beating Hale is by Rock paper scissors, the Hale not knowing his controls or having like 16 pyros, 4 engineers for dispenders and 4 medics because why not and then capturing the point.
Honestly I don't really care since things like Mannpower, Passtime and like 4 other gamemodes listed down in the unofficial tab are also just as bad or worse.
What you said maybe controversial for some reason but it's a realistic one. as fun as it is, those problems you've listed down are very big ones. which seems like for many years many people fail to realize until it starts to either add up or you come across people that want to play that seriously, which is also another huge and seems to be complicated problem people don't want to at least acknowledge. So with that being said, I think it should just remain as a community gamemode instead of a official one. As painful as it is to hear for some, There's a reason why Valve hasn't even messed with the idea of adding something at least similar to VSH despite it being out and the amount of people that has played it during all these years.
Yeah the worst part is that if we wanted an official mode it would be more realistic to get it from valve themselves, introducing some sorta official yeti park type arena with Saxton and other TF2 lore bosses. But that would require valve to actually update their game or have developers interested in that idea. Which sadly has probably a 0.5% chance of happening.
@@Knav_ish Yeah that's also yet another factor many people didn't think about as well. if out of the incredible odds against it that it somehow gets added who's the say Valve will keep it as it is? when player destruction (initially a community gamemode iirc) was being added officially they had to make some serious changes to it which ultimately made it play much different than what it was back then due to the fact that aspects from the original version had to be gutted.
Based on playing many hours the past few days, I think that empirically, a lot of this vid's complaints were nullified or mitigated. Overall, if anything sometimes Hale feels a bit weak,and VSH could use a few more silly bells and whistles. However overall it IS solid and fun, and the closest thing to a broken weapon is likely the Half Zatoichi. Capping helps suppress a lot of worries too. It's also funny just how much of the community features they did retain like the voice impressions haha. I appreciate your video and analyses though
Yeah they definitely fixed a lot of aspects I discussed. I think everything but giving Saxton Jump a cooldown was considered/implemented. Some of my suggestions aren't entirely necessary and weren't included like the bfb or manntreads changes, but that's personal preference honestly
All I can hear is the red vs blue music in the background I even heard Washingtons famous line of "what the fuck is with this guy" I know unrelated but I found it funny
VScript Hale needs a nerf, I have no clue how to play him and still won easily against a pretty good team, whenever I play regular VSH, I always suck and don’t really kill anyone, that is because it takes actual skill for regular VSH Hale, not VScript Hale. The reason why Regular VSH Hale is balanced is because it’s had more than a decade to actually get balanced, In conclusion, SAXTON IS NOT THE ONE WHO NEEDS A BUFF
I agree with everything said here, and would like to add that the TF2 community at large is placing _far_ too much emphasis on the alleged "power" of VScripts. They exist purely to make map logic easier, and while you _can_ make game modes with it, that's not what their purpose is, and using them as such will result in an end design riddled with major flaws. It's like installing a screw with your bare hands instead of a screwdriver - yeah, sure, you _can_ do it, but the screw isn't going to be tight, and the final construct will be unstable as a result. You'd be better off using the screwdriver, which in this case is SourceMod, a tool designed specifically for the task at hand. The only real advantage VScripts have over SourceMod is that VScript plugins _would_ actually stand a chance at being added to the game in an official capacity - that is, _if_ Vscripts were actually enabled in casual servers, which they are not. I would like to argue, however, that with casual being the borderline-unplayable abomination it currently is, this would not be a meaningful strength even if casual servers were to enable VScripts. In exchange for this small, _hypothetical_ benefit, VScript authors pay with their maintainability. As outlined in the video, if one wishes to make even the _smallest_ update to their VScript plugin, that update needs to be individually applied to every single map which uses that plugin, which is already a maintenance nightmare on its own, but then you have to factor in the added downloads this puts your clients through. It doesn't _sound_ bad on paper, but needing to download a new version of every single map which uses a given VScript every single time that VScript is updated, no matter how small the update, is perhaps the most effective recipe imaginable for an obscene degree of bloatware.
I think this mode is much better for casual. Hale's critical hit should discourage demos from just swarming hale and staling the round by endlessly knocking him back- demo is pretty overpowered if hale's unexperienced or has high ping, which will almost always be the case in casual mode. And I feel it's been pretty balanced so far. Holiday punch doesn't really work- with crits- you don't even make hale laugh, it seems to be nerfed.
The issue is anyone taking a direct fight with a demoknight is kinda just trolling, you have infinite movement and you decide to turtle on the ground with a melee user who cant do any damage to you if you walk away.
It's possible at lower player counts, but pretty much never happens even then. Close rounds are way more exciting than just stomping everyone. I've been doing some health pool handicaps to make it interesting
i kinda want for halloween they release the headless horseless housemen as a halloween mode only boss though tbh i feel hale is fine hes a melee boss trying to fight the austilian who punched yetis into extinction with a melee weapon you should get ur ass kicked not all things should work against hail
Lol thats fair, I tried to cut out certain parts and shrink it tbf. It would've been closer to 30+ if I didn't. Was it more of subject matter, or editing style that slowed it down in your opinion?
i play team fortress 2 with dream once, georgenotfound and sapnap were there too, they played with tommyinnit and tik tok got banned in the same match, I prefer youtube shorts anyways. Good video dude ❤
Maybe instead of airblast building rage, it instead coasted more ammo. This way pyro could actually be balanced instead of being either super annoying or just free rage.
Let's be honest, there's no way Valve would actually add an entire new gamemode in a "holiday-sized" update but atleast I think they could add something similar to VSH as a Halloween map. That way the map creators can also use all the Halloween bosses that are already inside the game and the map will have more boss variety.
Did you even watch the first few minutes of the vid to get an idea on what he's trying to say, Or are you just salty because someone decided to have a different opinion because we haven't had a major update in 6-ish years? (Sorry if my english is little bit weird, Not my first language.)
I could be stupid but I think the spy should stun hal when back stabbed for a bit. When the stun runs out hes immune from it for a bit so you cant stun lock him.
Not sure why spy would need a buff, he's already strong. If you're thinking of a way to make hale easier to catch for a backstab nerfing his superjump to have a cooldown is the more likely fix
@@Knav_ish it’s more of a set function and having the back stab being a very good stunt that doesn’t do a lot of damage to Hal. I’m not a dev don’t ask me what the number should be lol. Would promote the spy fantasy of being sneaky. Btw to promote this sneaky spy game play. You would need to nerf the super jump. One issue with mvm is that to new players there role on when to use sappers and knife is confusing. But having a stun would give spy a function and make him stand out. Also rather then banning clock and dagger. Add a de buff that when Hal walking around in the same post code as you. The earth shaking causes the spy’s clock to flicker with every step. Making is so bad no one would use it lol.
17:23 for all of the people commenting "aged poorly" without watching the video.
it reads a lot like the wiki page for the current version of the mode, lol
well done, a dev probably watched this.
It aged.
aged poorly
I've been playing VSH since 2011 and I only played the new VScript version after it was officially put into the game.
I definitely found it strange that all the banned weapons were not banned and for the most part the rebalances that have been made to the mode have solved some of the problems.
So far the only overpowered weapon is the Half-Zatoichi, aside from Saxton Punch the person playing Saxton has to hope the Demo doesn't keep landing his hits.
I have seen new players that have clearly never played as hale before just get swarmed by Demos and don't run because they don't know any better.
Yeah, the majority of Melee strategies fail as soon as you walk away, which is extremely easy when you can at any moment super jump.
Hopefully the Vs Hale devs see this and improve the gamemode now that is officially in the game
I doubt they have but a lot of the changes they've made are in line with my opinions. Who knows. I just want to see the gamemode do well, and I think they're in the same boat.
I really hope the creator of Vscript VS Saxton Hale continues to develop the gamemode (even after if it would be hypothetically be brought on officially)
No longer hypothetical
i love how i get recomended this video AFTER vsh gets added to the summer update today
Very insightful. I played on testing servers for the vscript version and encountered many of the same issues. Half of the classes felt obsolete in the face of this buffed Saxton, and any semi-competent Hale that knew how to just spam the space bar left the other half dead in the water too. I dread when the VSH maps on Casual actually go online, because I forsee them being a very... interesting experience, to say the least. I feel as if it'll need some major, major tweaking to actually be fun for both parties.
As I was clicking on this video I thought this was going to be a very bad or weird take but my opinions completely changed as I watched this video and I think everyone should take a minute to watch at least HALF of the video before disliking and commenting something negative because I think there will be something that we can all or at least partially agree on.
I can't help but completely agree with most of the things you said. This version of Saxton compared to the old one is practically night and day in some cases. Engineers being nearly useless with easy to destroy nests and no knockback making the class unfun and Melee classes having almost no compensations for their nerfs make them pointless as well. Hale having basically a budget fly mode. Hale also having some horrible moments of red putting 40 stickies on his spawn which ruins the start or outright makes the hale spawn with a chunk of hp taken out of him when he already has reduced hp which makes him so much more killable and no modifications to certain items like Cloak and Dagger and Holiday Punch and even the Baby Face's Blaster make games either unfun for the Hale or unfun for the Red Team.
If I wrote about half of the points you said this would turn out as a college essay in length however I do think it could be added to TF2 as long as it had some reworks with weapon balancing and Hale balancing as well. For 6 months it's not the worst balancing I've ever seen but nor is it the best as well but time will tell us if it will get further worked on and rebalanced to be an even more fun mode than the sourcemod potentially. Great video and keep it up.
ill get this out of the way now...
people are dunking on this guy but he was fucking right, i can't even load into a game right now
thats a bug on valves part so don't know what you're getting at here
"I don't want new game modes because the servers will be temporally down" sure is a take.
@@tinymo1695didnt watch video
@@initial_sequence I was referring to a commentor in this who has since deleted said comment. It was along the lines of "This is the exact reason I didn't want VSH in tf2" hence my response
Even after the fix that came recently, I can't even load into a VSH match from casual
I thought this video would have mental gymnastics on par with Under the Mayo's take on Ultrakill, but nope, it's actually a good video. VSH definitely isn't ready, but with appropriate changes, it'll be ready "eventually" whatever that ends up meaning.
Hell naww ultrakill mfs have to put mayo in almost every single discussion
@@iammadeoutofstarstuff957to be fair that video was the worst case of reaching I've ever seen
@@Alicaso the video was decent tbh and thats coming from a person who p ranked every single level and the criticism wasnt that bad the main point of being able to play like shit and the game not punishing you is a valid criticism even hakita added a way to counter balance it but the solution mayo gave is the dumb stuff ultrakill isnt made for ammo and the freshness meter is a way more smarter way to stop abuse but the ultrakill fan base had mental breakdown over the ultrakill fans are obsessed joke to the point they had multiple videos over one joke to prove how they aint obsessed lol
@@iammadeoutofstarstuff957 The guy's fine when he talk Resident Evil, survival horrors, or Doom(mostly); but he has been kind of an ass a fair ammount of time. So it's warranted.
a lot of people will dunk on this guy now but the official VSH has made so many of the changes suggested in this video that i think the devs have seen it
how do we tell him
Tell him what babe
I see where you're coming from, I'd still love to see it come to the game as anything will be good at this point :D
I love how I can tell you were a regular on TFF back in the day from the music choice alone. Thanks for bringing back the memories for the countless hours I spent there.
I miss TFF so fucking much.. the custom stats were so good..
@@stoneman3800 TFF?
TFF was a VSH server, like actually 10 years ago is when I started playing that server. It had a lot of different custom weapons and abilities that made it super fun.
Medic had a bungee medigun before quickfix
Engineer could stickyjump with his dispenser
Pyro could use primary ammo as a jetpack, comboed with flare jumping.
It was the perfect server imo, slowly died over time, not quite sure why. Fond memories all around, and banger music too, used a lot of Red vs Blue for their bosses.
@@Knav_ish Aah. I’ve seen servers with the flying pyro stat but I can’t say I was playing vsh back then. I mostly played wacky maps with more “normal” gamemodes.
The TFF server are still up and running. There is the X10 server that is usually empty but sometimes we do a weekend play session, and then there is my “TFF Extra” custom X1 server with some elements and weapon stats shared with the main TFF server 😀
I may share the discord here but I need to make sure the uploaded is okay with that first.
Idk why people are using this as a "Gotcha!" He was right it wasnt ready
Very VERY not ready it seems, though might be some goofiness on Valve's end too since it worked perfectly fine on community servers.
@@joe____Yeah. Keep in mind they haven’t implemented community fixes (yet, hopefully.)
They hated him because he told the truth. The mode is dead.
This aged like milk very fast
Wine
@@GenericPhantom1 more like the opposite
@@Zaddaharthe gamemode sucks lol hes right
I've played VSH for some time now and while I agree with some points made in the video, I much prefer Hale's movement in VScript VSH over the Plugin version since the movement of the Plugin version felt too limited to be efficiently used especially in higher player numbers. Maybe have Hale's "superhop" have a 1 sec cooldown but everything else is fine as it is.
Knockback by one player is an annoyance but I understand its necessity. It however becomes very frustrating to deal when there's lots of players. A lot of players tend to fight in a huge group which made it difficult to kill even one person due to the high amount of knockback you take. The reduced knockback in the Vscript version made it much better to deal with a group of players. I do still agree that melee weapons should deal more knockback.
Also I think it would be better to re-title the video to something like "Vscript VSH is not ready for casual TF2" since the current title sounded like don't want the gamemode to be added at all, which isn't true since you just want some aspects of the gamemode to get some fixes and balance changes so it's a better experience for casual.
A big part of the mode is making it fun to play as both sides while not making one side too strong. Hale currently is way too strong. Hale wins like 70% of the rounds currently. If someone knows how to play hale well in vscript, they cant lose. Maybe a difficulty slider would be a better fix than knockback. But 90% of the players on the server lose 70% of the time. Its just not fun to play as Mercs.
@@Knav_ish Doesn't seem to be the case in the released version. I see mercs and Hale both win, and in fact Hale seems too weak at lower player counts as his health is reduced
@@Thornskade as he said in the video, a single crit Scottish resistance sticky trap can kill hale at low player counts, which is why he has a problem with no weapons being altered or banned
@@Thornskade agreed
something important which wasn't brought up, how will this affect community servers? if VALVe introduces "casual VSH" with all its bells & whistles while "community VSH" still exists, would that not create a divide in the community on which version to play? would it also not funnel players away from community servers which are already struggling with pop counts, on top of VALVe burying it in the matchmaking UI?
My hope would be that it would introduce enough people to the mode who seek out more and look to community servers for that option.
I think it would force the community servers to evolve. Include things that would make it stand out from the shiny new official remake.
@@Small_child_punter Well community servers already have the upper hand of offering more bosses than just Saxton Hale, with their own perks and rage attacks.
Personally, though I played a bit of plug in VSH beforehand, playing the Vscript version definitely encouraged me try things like Freak Fortress 2 out as well. Unless Casual VSH gets the same boss variety (which is incredibly unlikely except for a possible Scream Fortress version) I don’t think community VSH will be going anywhere.
They hated Jesus because he told them the truth
Well I don't think this guy is Jesus but okay
I didn't hate him, I wasn't born yet even.
I hate a part of his fanbase tho
That's some very well-thought balance thoughts in this video. I think you should send it to the creator of VSH vscript plugin as a feedback. I really want to see VSH among official gamemodes, but for now it is really nit ready yet.
I think the best case scenario would be a pd_watergate type situation, where Valve gave a development build of sorts to the creator(s) and they work on it from there to fit it better into base tf2.
but its been years since the invasion update happened so Valve might not do that kind of thing anymore.
Like I said, its probably the best case, but not everything always works out like that.
Yeah that'd be the ideal, and with all of the TF2 voiceactors making a resurgence I'm guessing they're more than interested in working with valve more on TF2. They have everything they need, except developers working on the game.
Laughs in CS2
@@Knav_ishhopefully they plan to do that, maybe the plan is to release it before hand to allow more devs to work on the game after the surge, and then afterwards do what happened with watergate pretty much,
Would also be a perfect time in that plan to do things like make a official saxton model (for gameplay) made by valve and get the official voices to do the lines
Honestly I think balancing the gamemode around maps like Tinyrock should've been the way to go from the start. I playtested Distillery before it was released and they had completed so much of the map that no one could really give feedback unless the mapmakers were to think "sure, let's scrap this entire thing!". Vscript VSH is best played in smaller maps that keep players on their toes, giving Saxton too much room to maneuver makes matches extremely campy for the person playing Saxton and boring for the ones playing the OG classes.
One thing that wasn't even touched on in this video is that a feature of this caliber should NOT be added with vscript only. Saxton is not made with being implemented and built upon in mind. Things like broken particles in other servers after playing the map, no minimal viewmodels for Saxton and no ways of testing Saxton's abilities for yourself make the entire experience user-hostile. If this gamemode gets added, it needs a ground-up overhaul from a team that can put professional time into it.
@@t4t4allthere is one way to test play hale and that’s by typing “vsh_tinyrock” or any of the other maps in console and adding one bot to the other team using “tf_bot_add 1”. It’s a bit of a round about way just to test one class but it does work.
Honestly good video. Didn’t think it would be this well thought out.
Let's be honest, there's no way Valve would actually add an entire new gamemode in a "holiday-sized" update but atleast I think they could add something similar to VSH as a Halloween map. That way the map creators can also use all the Halloween bosses that are already inside the game and the map will have more boss variety.
silly update: ye it gud. ive played like a 2 hour long match of vsh nucleus and had alot fun as both hale and the mercenaries. there were also alot of times when a bad player got hale and just walked foward pressing m1 without using his movement and theyd get rekt by a squad of katana demoknights. so ye hale takes skill.
Just curious, did you watch that the creator made a video discussing most of what you talk about in this video? It's also stated that it's a reimaging of VSH, not the old one
Yeah, I saw that he made a video about it but hes only got part 1 out, and it moreso goes over the history and why they changed it. Not necessarily what makes good balance. Maybe his part 2 etc will shed more light on their opinions or reasons for balance. Right now it just seems like its their personal preference. Same reason that my personal preference is more towards skilled gameplay.
The issue is that the work on their end is laughable. The gammode is already made, they're just really fucking bad at doing things a game company should do.
No, it's seems, they did
I thought exactly the same thing. But I guess I was just proven wrong
If anything, valve seriously need to make tf2 actually viable for custom content, i was actually completely shocked when i saw a different viewmodel in tf2 and i kind of just realised that calve had made custom servers work with tin scraps for years, like it's 2023 and we are still using the poll vote menu for chat tags and trails
VSH simply isn't made for competitive play, it is only fun, when you are here to mess around.
If Hale knows his moveset he can easily crush the mercenaries unless they go full meta strats.
Yeah, that's honestly the most fair counterpoint.
I think once they are at a good balance for most players, I'd want to host/play some server with higher skill players personally, but not something to force on others.
Same it just isn't fun, when Hale is OP and projectile classes being so incredibly underwhelming with the Valve version
I don't want to get into much detail, but it certainly isn't great.
@@DetwandI've been playing many hours now and if anything Hale seems a bit weak at times, but honestly, it seems overall well balanced for everyone involved and considering newer players etc. Plus lots of fun and funny moments
The game in its current state is too early to judge balance when players aren't good enough yet. Once people get better they'll have to nerf things like Hales Movement. Right now it's fine because everyone's learning but most games are just a steamroller in one direction or the other imo. Depends heavily on what servers you play also, community is almost always going to have more committed and stronger players overall
People keep commenting "well they did anyway," but it literally doesn't work and crashes the server if even used on the new update, so in the end he was right
edit: it took an hour and they've already disabled the vsh maps for crashing
Yo someone actually has a brain in the comment section.
Lo and behold, it's in the game now. The end.
Doesn't make it good though, vscript slop is what it is
I agree with most points, but comparison of time to balance is a bit silly. It builds off old VSH and FF2, which means he knows what works and all balance work is ready, he just built on top of it. Problem is that he chooses to actively nerf everything he saw as an issue ie Demoknights, engies or spies into the ground.
Adding more things like climbing to all classes not just Sniper is good. making the boss more powerful too if its not overboard.
It doesnt really undo old VSH as those community will there be all the time. It also wont be in TF2 officially for long. Its just for summer event. So it might work like halloween annually. I would call it VSH2. It somewhat drastic in some changes. I preffer old VSH/FF2, but i like vscript version too
While Vscript VSH is good right now, and better than it was before. Its still kinda fucked up, most rounds end with hale capping because a few engis are chilling out in the skybox. Fun but dysfunctional.
Yeah it's unfortunate how easy it is to/how many people like to stall a match and waste peoples time.
I think it should as tf2 needs a new gamemode in general (especially one that has a long history in the community). However it will need updates over time.
I didn't watch the video, might aswell be the first commenter
Edit: sourcemod version is much cooler and i agree with your points
dont do that. thats a plague in the comments of videos. theres no prize for being first.
@@Small_child_punter thank you for commenting 13 days later
@@TinyEngi liking your own reply, nice.
It makes no difference how late i was. Its just as desperate now as it was 2 weeks ago.
@@Small_child_punter are you seriously gonna have a argument with a random stranger about a comment they made?
and by the looks of it, you liked my reply, so shut up
Great video! I have been thinking about a lot of these points when just playing the mode.
To fix Saxton Punch I would base it on a mix of damage and kills. For example every 100 damage taken gives you 20% charge and each kill gives you 10% charge. (Numbers are arbitrary and would be balanced accordingly). This would both reward aggressiveness while still allowing Hale to have a bunch of guaranteed punches without him running away.
Cloak and Dagger spies/Trolldiers are balanced by the control point. Stalling against Hale is less useful than you'd think because Hale caps fast.
Knockback issue is honestly the worst part of the mode. To fix it I would simply make Hale SLIGHTLY more susceptible to knockback overall but then much more when Hale is in the air. However, the slam/charge would give him complete knockback immunity albeit on a cool down.
Also make the super jump a little slower overall. I like that he can spam it tbh, but it is too useful all the time. With knockback vulnerability in the air, Hale's will need to stay on land to approach groups of enemies.
Now Hale has to stay on land to not be blown back but still has options for cheeky sentries or players.
Also make it so Hale can punch away stickies with all 3 of his specials.
I haven't played the Vscript VSH so I can't hold a firm opinion on gameplay, but looking at footage of it; Saxton feels.. off thematically
His voice actor doesn't feel anywhere near as aggressive as the SourceMod one and it feels like he's scared of hurting people's feelings in a game with voicelines like "Scotland is NOT a real country, YOU are an englishman in a dress!"
I really hope they redo the voicelines for Saxton if they're serious about VSHcript because he feels so afraid of hurting people's feelings and feels like he doesn't have any bite behind his words at all
It also feels really weird not having a rage meter from the gameplay I've seen, it's a signature part of VSH gameplay; silently keeping track of if Hale has rage or not and how to counteract it, as well as making the best use of your Rage as hale.
It being gone feels so, empty, like there's no big event to look forward to as I'm playing on either team
The fact there's no cooldown on the Super Jump though is insane.. that thing is a VITAL movement option and extremely powerful, it gets you out of sticky situations, get the jump on people out in the open and is overall an extremely powerful positioning tool that needs a tradeoff; having it whenever you want is.. crazy, even without having played the mod I can tell that's absurd.
I wonder if the VSHcript developer is interested in buffing the mercs to fight that level of absurdity though, or bring things back to be more grounded with their roots?
Another thing I noticed is occasionally Saxton gets a super punch which acts as a "one shot" critical punch, another thing I'm questionable of since when's the last time you got one-shot in TF2 without warning and felt like it well deserved?
Maybe you could airblast crit rockets or outrun a phlog pyro, but you can't outrun or outdamage a 10,000 health tank with super jumps on his side, if he wants to get a cheeky one-shot off on you, he's getting it
Up to 7:15 in the video now and jesus, how did they not see putting powerful abilities on a cooldown as a way to encourage stalling as hale?
Even vanilla tf2 has mechanics to encourage you getting in there as medic by rewarding more uber for non-overhealed players.
This gamemode could be really fun, but definitely needs more time to cook; I really hope it can reach full bloom before getting added to the game
Completely agree with the voiceacting comments, probably a bit is nostalgia, and I get why they'd cut lines like "you fight like a woman", but man it just doesnt hold the same impact, I had a whole segment I cut out that went over this more.
They seeming left out actual voicelines in favor of so many Ironic ones poking fun at the old version of the mode, it just feels out of place for the actual ingame version. I was expecting it just for the trailer or something. Voicelines trail off, and they dont hold the same feeling when you hear them.
I'd say its worth giving a try but in its current state, hale is just way too strong.
I love hales old voice lines. He was an asshole. You're right about that, he's too soft. He sounds more like a camp counselor than a sadistic bully.
"what's the matter, girls? Dontcha wanna live forever?" is my absolute favorite line.
His lines were replaces since the original actor disappeared.
Aged like milk. Sure it's a bit buggy rn but when they fix it it'll probably be the most popular gamemode. This update caused tf2 to have more players online than its ever had in its entire history. Amazing update and it'll be even better once they fix VHS and add the community fixes
>the gamemode is buggy and people cant even play it
"Uhhh this aged like milk"
Sure thing dude
The issue runs far deeper than being just a little buggy. VScripts are quite literally not enabled in casual, and I doubt Valve is willing to make an exception for one game mode. Even assuming they do, VScript plugins are a maintenance nightmare; every single time a VScript plugin is updated, that update must be applied to every map which runs that plugin, and then the player needs to download the new versions of each map, which is a ridiculous amount of bloat just to update a game mode, especially over time with multiple updates for the sake of long-term maintenance.
@@spookmaster7737 This is exactly what I warned about back when the VSH VScript version was announced. VScript may open the gates for maps with more exotic perks and twists over existing game modes, but implementing a whole new game mode with it will quickly become a nightmare to maintain since you can't decouple the mode from the map itself, having to update each and every map for any change or improvement to the mode itself. This might doom the game mode to be limited to a small pool of maps dumped into the "Misc" category.
@@TheDragShotfuture predicted
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 sadly yes, I was correct 😔 .
coming back to this video over a year later to say i think its funny as fuck that it took lizardofoz over a year to realize that hale needed a 3 second cooldown on his jump
now added and i am amazed by it
The number one way they can fix it is if they added Fluttershy so I can live out 2012 Dezzy cringe again.
There still are versus ponyville servers surprisingly. Right next to the Mental Asylum
Nerfing the Sandman and Natascha is unnecessary because the slow effect can be negated by strafing.
So balance should be based on bugs
@@Knav_ishmore like. Give sandman its stun back.
I can definitely agree with a good amount of points here. And I can definitely agree on the point near the end of the Summer Update being nearly the only chance it has to get in, and how a best case scenario, and a likely scenario imo, once added, the people behind the map and the potted plant janitor at Valve can continue releasing fixes and changes to the mode after it’s been released.
as a vsh enthusiast that has quite a bit of experience playing on sourcemod vsh, the vscript counterpart is really lacking on red side with necessary buffs such as knockback and the damage consistency of backstabs and market gardens not being as powerful (there's plenty more, but i won't drag this on too much). saxton hale has a lot going for him with a revamped jump mechanic, making it easier for newcomers to understand, simply pressing jump does a "brave jump", the charge giving saxton hale a lot more mobility than that was originally intended in the sourcemod plugin, and the saxton punch mechanic that demolishes everything in saxton hale's path with one punch.
i agree with the whole premise of the video. however, i think vscript wasn't really intended for serious play or for red side to be favored in the slightest because it isn't really represented in the gameplay at all and in saxton hale winrate being higher than that of red.
vscript takes a lot of creative liberties than that of sourcemod and the appeal is obviously there with no download wait for models and other assets needed for vsh normally so it's easy to pick up and play for the average player.
all of this being said, this has very little appeal to already existing vsh players that are so used to sourcemod that every change almost seems jarring but somewhat familiar. hopefully some changes come about where things are added. it would be a lot more tolerable if brave jump and weigh down had a cooldown along with his saxton punch having a rage meter instead of every 30 seconds, as well as general knockback and remove his eyelander range. (it's a bit longer)
anyway, you make good content and have a good one.
I'm guessing you're referencing the video by the creator where they mention wanting to balance so that red has a 60%+ ish winrate which makes it more fun for everyone. Completely agree that they missed the mark, not sure what the endgoal is but I'm fairly certain its not just SourceMod VSH 2.0. Guess I'll have to wait and see what they come up with. I'm also sticking to normal SourceMod whenever I personally play, for now at least.
@@Knav_ish i wasn't referencing the video by the creator, nor have i really kept up with the developments of vscript vsh as it isn't really of my liking. all my ideas and conceptualizations are influenced by the original sourcemod rendition of vsh.
partly due to the reason why vscript vsh is such a far cry from the original is because of lizard of oz's long absence in the vsh community only being active in it's creation in the beginning and now in the development of something completely new.
Exactly my thoughts on the VSH implementation. Great video
Well this didn't age well
4:17 depending on how old the footage is there is a pretty good chance thats me in the clip! Used to play on that server all the time back in the day and this video has reminded me why I used to love it so much. Thanks for bringing back some great memories for me and for the amazing video!
That was footage from an old game with General Wartz, so if that name rings a bell its probably you lol. Glad to keep seeing old TFF regulars
@@Knav_ish I do remember Wartz!! He was the really good soldier main, right? Oh man i wish that server was still around. Good times
@@TheDovahkitty You might be thinking of Senor Brown, he was the one cracked with the DH, especially on military Area. Wartz was a heavy player who would scream on mic lol. Both interesting characters
@@Knav_ish Thats right! now its all coming back to me haha
11:35, the stally weapon are nerfed if you see it's actually hitting hale or press f to the teammate that use them if you're spectating. Jumper weapon no longer has +200% extra ammo (So stalling with it require ammo management now), Sandman is nerfed by valve to (death and) not stun and is subject Ly the worst scout melee weapon that can only do 45 damage on ranged hit, 105 damage like other melees and make you more likely die to Saxton's Saxton Punch AoE or Ground Slam AoE. Holiday Punch's forced taunt and literally every stun weapon existed's stun only last ~2 seconds before hale automatically superjump and ready to use his other ability. Eureka effect's teleport ability is negated by smaller map than in the plug-in version and Saxton Hale's speedy movement and ability. Saxton Hale's AoE damage can hit baby face scout easily and reduce the boost, if not all of it (due to 1 damage able to reduce 3 % of the boost ratio). Natasha only slow hale 15% of the time (Although this bring new problem to the gamemode and that is unpredictable and unfair RNG), Hiding with any cloak watches will publicly shame the player with voice lines (Emotional damage > Actual Nerf because brain is very complex organ), also the time you say Hale's ability based on timer encourage stalling is complete the opposite due to stalling as hale is hard because the merc has ranged & mobility weapon so fleeing is very hard, capturing the point without fighting the mercs first is basically death sentence unless you can dodge 1000 bullets and projectiles like a touhou player and the more you stall the more Jar of Piss, Jar of Not Milk, Bauble, Sandman Ball, Flying Guillotine, Can of Radioactive, Banner Charge, Ubercharge, Charged sniper shot, Sentries, you have to deal with, due to that, hale player will almost never stall and stalling against him only make him get more use of his ridiculous ability and after several time passed, control points is available and fighting hale on there is also death sentence since you almost can't dodge his punch in small area. Also meleeing Hale is basically parry his melee attack (and deal 195 base damage because almost every melee is crit boosted) so you don't need make every knockback weapon in your loadout (because the ridiculous knockback every crit weapon has and hale's 1.2x melee range can't negate that unless his back is on a wall) and uber is basically parry his Saxton Punch (and force hale to use regular punch instead) and other damage ability and attack. The gamemode is not perfect though (META weapon in plug-in like eyelander, deadringer, crusader's cross-bow, uber-saw and kunai still META and using other weapon lower your chance of winning even though they tried to nerf it by reducing knock back of every demoman's sword and cross-bow no longer crit-boosted if not last mann standing, and every melee except demoman's sword and the disciplinary action now has +60% range and deploy 25% faster, however they make Hybrid knight no longer can deal thousands damage by just shooting hale due to shield no longer grant critical hit to any primaries assuming they have basic projectile aiming skill, scout no longer can be annoying little fly that deal miniscule damage but pain in the ass to hit due to Hale is more Mobile than him and scout need to deal damage to Hale due to Hale's more ability uses the more time passed, and soldier using Liberty Launcher + Gunboat is also no longer deal miniscule damage but pain in the ass to hit due to healthkit is more easily reachable spot [to hale too] and no longer heal 100% of his health and he need to market garden/melee hale to knockback hale in order not getting 195 of his health depleted, playing as demo knight and not using eyelander make hale no longer 1 shot you [after he broke your shield] with >97,5% health and no damage vulnerability because hale deal 195 base damage in vscript version [200 > 195] and other balance change are listed in wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Versus_Saxton_Hale#cite_note-22)
"Saxton Hale (Source) Tried to make every weapon powerful and viable"
Laughs in Baby Face Blaster and Jumper Weapons
And gave up on some, true lol
lol i love how done u are with some of these comments
Welp it was fun while it lasted lmfao
I don't agree with some of the points honestly , the video is certainly not bad but I certainly disagree with some of them
Thats fair, everyones got their own opinion
As the host of the best VSH server out there, I like a lot of the stuff VScript is doing.
Only problem is it's too much different from how my server balance evolved over time for me to just "throw it in".
Though I did port it to sourcemod to fuck around with :)
16:41 so glad you said that because it happened to me and I have 32 gigs of ram! I was worried the brand new pc I just built already had something wrong with it.
32 gigs of ram? Bro I only have 4 gigs can you give me some?
Like can you lend me your PC I'll keep it for you, and also your phone, and wallet
@@GenericPhantom1 tf2 only uses 4 or so anyway.
16:38 look who’s laughing now chucklehead
I don't really think you _should_ be able to melee Saxton. Man can canonically explode an ancient ape with a punch and a dude cosplaying a knight can tolerate that? More than that original Hale is hella sluggish. Any pair of sentries turn you into hiding rat while everyone is chipping you off until you at least getting a chace to assault the nest and only rhen everything else in sight
I'm not saying getting locked into a corner by a pair of sentries is fun by any means, just that the reduction from too much knockback to 0 knockback is a little much.
A Good demoknight can definitely take on hale in his current state too, Half zatoichi can out-heal hales damage if you dodge a few hits. I don't think knockback is an end all be all solution but its kinda hard to play anything other than Zatochi in its current state with no knockback.
I see that clickbaity title but it did make me click, I do agree it needs more work.
Also about the video I feel like your talking is slow that i had to put it on 2x, it's okay if you are talking a lot of things and informing and debating about things like this but it could be more faster. If not faster then more clear. Sorry if I'm being nitpicky.
Also I love the funny clip at the end.
Rewatching you're definitely right that its slow. I watched on 2x speed and it felt like it was meant to be watched at that speed. I'm not sure how I didn't really notice. Especially the intro and second half can be played at 2x and not miss anything.
Melees now deal increased knockback as long as they aren't spy. which is neat for melee panic usage.
Lmao aged like milk
Too bad they added it anyway
they added it lol
I love the content and miss playing freak fortress
Bro really said why isn’t the silly fun gamemode competitively balanced
Not that silly or fun to get rolled by Saxton every round tbh
@@Knav_ish skill issue
Lmfao. An unbalanced game is not fun regardless of skill level.
@@notyilli_2481 skill diff
@@TailcoatGames I would eat your ass at VSH, either side. Come at me kid.
Wait no don't, eating kids ass is against the law.
I disagree, new vsh is much more fun than the old one. Saxton actually feels powerful unlike the old limited bosses. The only good boss in old VSH was the vagineer
Honestly you're right. I played as Hale 3 times. First time I had a 20 second lag spike, still won. Second time was a 5 minute lag spike, lost. Third time wasn't even close since I actually had good performance.
Now I feel like Saxton Hale is too powerful, Hale gets around 1000 hp per every player. So he has like 20K hp, he's really mobile since he can spam the super jump. The explosive punch can take out a horde, his windup attack makes him faster, his elbow slam. So Hale can just fly across the map, elbow slam, punch and repeat. If you get surrounded just do the explosive punch.
I'd also like to mention that the sticky jumper has been modified by lowering it's ammo.
The only way I see people beating Hale is by Rock paper scissors, the Hale not knowing his controls or having like 16 pyros, 4 engineers for dispenders and 4 medics because why not and then capturing the point.
Honestly I don't really care since things like Mannpower, Passtime and like 4 other gamemodes listed down in the unofficial tab are also just as bad or worse.
Womp womp!
Epic and awesome and pog video
Ye saxton got a huge Kb resistance buff making my mini crit lv3 sentries no longer a challenge
How do we tell him?
Aged like milk! 🤣
What you said maybe controversial for some reason but it's a realistic one. as fun as it is, those problems you've listed down are very big ones. which seems like for many years many people fail to realize until it starts to either add up or you come across people that want to play that seriously, which is also another huge and seems to be complicated problem people don't want to at least acknowledge.
So with that being said, I think it should just remain as a community gamemode instead of a official one. As painful as it is to hear for some, There's a reason why Valve hasn't even messed with the idea of adding something at least similar to VSH despite it being out and the amount of people that has played it during all these years.
Yeah the worst part is that if we wanted an official mode it would be more realistic to get it from valve themselves, introducing some sorta official yeti park type arena with Saxton and other TF2 lore bosses. But that would require valve to actually update their game or have developers interested in that idea. Which sadly has probably a 0.5% chance of happening.
And that's assuming that they also don't fuck up the balance of it either somehow.
@@Knav_ish Yeah that's also yet another factor many people didn't think about as well. if out of the incredible odds against it that it somehow gets added who's the say Valve will keep it as it is?
when player destruction (initially a community gamemode iirc) was being added officially they had to make some serious changes to it which ultimately made it play much different than what it was back then due to the fact that aspects from the original version had to be gutted.
Lol
What do you think about it now that it’s out?
Bad news buddy lol
Based on playing many hours the past few days, I think that empirically, a lot of this vid's complaints were nullified or mitigated. Overall, if anything sometimes Hale feels a bit weak,and VSH could use a few more silly bells and whistles. However overall it IS solid and fun, and the closest thing to a broken weapon is likely the Half Zatoichi. Capping helps suppress a lot of worries too. It's also funny just how much of the community features they did retain like the voice impressions haha. I appreciate your video and analyses though
Yeah they definitely fixed a lot of aspects I discussed. I think everything but giving Saxton Jump a cooldown was considered/implemented. Some of my suggestions aren't entirely necessary and weren't included like the bfb or manntreads changes, but that's personal preference honestly
All I can hear is the red vs blue music in the background I even heard Washingtons famous line of "what the fuck is with this guy"
I know unrelated but I found it funny
Dayum lots of these predictions aged like milk.
Which ones? They fixed a lot of things I mentioned
It got added
VScript Hale needs a nerf, I have no clue how to play him and still won easily against a pretty good team, whenever I play regular VSH, I always suck and don’t really kill anyone, that is because it takes actual skill for regular VSH Hale, not VScript Hale. The reason why Regular VSH Hale is balanced is because it’s had more than a decade to actually get balanced, In conclusion, SAXTON IS NOT THE ONE WHO NEEDS A BUFF
welp they just did
This aged poorly, they just officially added saxton hale mode
And now it's gone!
@@Fatsaver i don’t believe you… but ima pull up tf2 to see if you’re lying
@@Czscw So what did you find
@@Fatsaver im gullible asf
@@Czscw Don't worry, you'll notice who Valve really is for TF2 eventually.
Well then
cant they just copy the old VSH into the new vscript VSH
They want to try and polish it and iron out its kinks. Problem is that it’s still too new
I agree with everything said here, and would like to add that the TF2 community at large is placing _far_ too much emphasis on the alleged "power" of VScripts. They exist purely to make map logic easier, and while you _can_ make game modes with it, that's not what their purpose is, and using them as such will result in an end design riddled with major flaws. It's like installing a screw with your bare hands instead of a screwdriver - yeah, sure, you _can_ do it, but the screw isn't going to be tight, and the final construct will be unstable as a result. You'd be better off using the screwdriver, which in this case is SourceMod, a tool designed specifically for the task at hand.
The only real advantage VScripts have over SourceMod is that VScript plugins _would_ actually stand a chance at being added to the game in an official capacity - that is, _if_ Vscripts were actually enabled in casual servers, which they are not. I would like to argue, however, that with casual being the borderline-unplayable abomination it currently is, this would not be a meaningful strength even if casual servers were to enable VScripts.
In exchange for this small, _hypothetical_ benefit, VScript authors pay with their maintainability. As outlined in the video, if one wishes to make even the _smallest_ update to their VScript plugin, that update needs to be individually applied to every single map which uses that plugin, which is already a maintenance nightmare on its own, but then you have to factor in the added downloads this puts your clients through. It doesn't _sound_ bad on paper, but needing to download a new version of every single map which uses a given VScript every single time that VScript is updated, no matter how small the update, is perhaps the most effective recipe imaginable for an obscene degree of bloatware.
I think this mode is much better for casual. Hale's critical hit should discourage demos from just swarming hale and staling the round by endlessly knocking him back- demo is pretty overpowered if hale's unexperienced or has high ping, which will almost always be the case in casual mode. And I feel it's been pretty balanced so far. Holiday punch doesn't really work- with crits- you don't even make hale laugh, it seems to be nerfed.
The issue is anyone taking a direct fight with a demoknight is kinda just trolling, you have infinite movement and you decide to turtle on the ground with a melee user who cant do any damage to you if you walk away.
they added it and its really fun
thats crazy
@@Knav_ish My nuts itch
I only have a problem if the Vagineer isn't included.
The only way I've lost in the new VSH is by playing RPS with the last man standing. Any experienced VSH player just can't lose as him anymore
It's possible at lower player counts, but pretty much never happens even then. Close rounds are way more exciting than just stomping everyone. I've been doing some health pool handicaps to make it interesting
i kinda want for halloween they release the headless horseless housemen as a halloween mode only boss
though tbh i feel hale is fine hes a melee boss trying to fight the austilian who punched yetis into extinction with a melee weapon you should get ur ass kicked not all things should work against hail
uh oh
I had to speed up the video by 1.5 or else I'd have fallen asleep on my keyboard.
Lol thats fair, I tried to cut out certain parts and shrink it tbf. It would've been closer to 30+ if I didn't.
Was it more of subject matter, or editing style that slowed it down in your opinion?
@@Knav_ish You talk too slow, that's it.
@@Knav_ish atleast you edited it to be shorter so thats good xd
Yeah fair, its definitely slower than my normal cadence watching it back. watching at 2x then back to normal feels like slow motion somehow.
valve just wanted to make him accurate to the lore
Were desperate for new content
definitely wasnt ready, and still not fixed!
i still crash after joining every match and cannot even try the new mode.
ruclips.net/video/FvnJtcej05U/видео.html
Yeah about that…
3:15
caber: am i a joke to you?
i play team fortress 2 with dream once, georgenotfound and sapnap were there too, they played with tommyinnit and tik tok got banned in the same match, I prefer youtube shorts anyways. Good video dude ❤
and then everyone clapped b
Tbh, now that I heard it, I feel like original vsh was way better
Maybe instead of airblast building rage, it instead coasted more ammo. This way pyro could actually be balanced instead of being either super annoying or just free rage.
Let's be honest, there's no way Valve would actually add an entire new gamemode in a "holiday-sized" update but atleast I think they could add something similar to VSH as a Halloween map. That way the map creators can also use all the Halloween bosses that are already inside the game and the map will have more boss variety.
Lol
:)
Aged like milk
Way too crazy
You were right
this aged poorly
Did it tho?
@@officer_mazter5650yes
yea no
Did you even watch the first few minutes of the vid to get an idea on what he's trying to say, Or are you just salty because someone decided to have a different opinion because we haven't had a major update in 6-ish years?
(Sorry if my english is little bit weird, Not my first language.)
I think it's really good, but I'll watch your video and review what you have to say.
I could be stupid but I think the spy should stun hal when back stabbed for a bit. When the stun runs out hes immune from it for a bit so you cant stun lock him.
Not sure why spy would need a buff, he's already strong. If you're thinking of a way to make hale easier to catch for a backstab nerfing his superjump to have a cooldown is the more likely fix
@@Knav_ish it’s more of a set function and having the back stab being a very good stunt that doesn’t do a lot of damage to Hal.
I’m not a dev don’t ask me what the number should be lol.
Would promote the spy fantasy of being sneaky.
Btw to promote this sneaky spy game play. You would need to nerf the super jump.
One issue with mvm is that to new players there role on when to use sappers and knife is confusing. But having a stun would give spy a function and make him stand out.
Also rather then banning clock and dagger. Add a de buff that when Hal walking around in the same post code as you. The earth shaking causes the spy’s clock to flicker with every step.
Making is so bad no one would use it lol.