Hi Squatch, great discussion, and it got me to thinking about the Farmall M diesel I spent last winter doing the engine rebuild on. Its starting system was another option, which essentially incorporated a pony gasoline start system right into the main diesel engine. No one used this option except for IHC, and they developed it in the 1920's, as a way to achieve the efficiency of diesel power before glow plugs, batteries, and starters were strong enough to crank over high compression engines. Like pony motors, this system eventually disappeared with advances in technology. Before I went through the engine, I thought it was a poor system, as the tractor would hardly ever start below 40 degrees. After rebuilding it, it easily starts on gas in just about any temperature. During the process, I learned that one of the most important aspects to the longevity of the whole system is in how it is operated; the proper steps taken to start it, cool it down before shutdown, and the gas/compression settings to leave it in after it is shut down. This is similar to your discussion on pony motors getting a bad rap due to poor maintenance.
I grew up with a couple of Farmall MDs. The first thing I learned was the proper way to start them on gas, how long to let them run before switching to diesel, and then switching back to running on gas before shutting the engine down. As long as the gasoline side was working as it should, it was very reliable. You just needed to properly maintain the gasoline starting side of the operation.
@@squatch253 Would love to see you upgrade one of the three engines to electronic ignition as it would improve reliability and starting made easier. They can be temprimental, the Wico mag on my D4 seems a lot more reliable on the Eisenmans I have on other Cats. What do you think ? Will be working on my Cat D2 3 j soon. its number 3j506
As a retired auto mechanic I didn't realize until recently, talking to a motorcycle restoration friend that the magneto magnets needed re-energized in old distributors, resulting in weak spark. Probably the wrong terminology, but you get the idea. Does that apply to all magnetos?
Absolutely nothing wrong with a starting engine!! Chatted with an old Cat engineer once and there is good reason Cat stuck with a starting engine for so long even though electric was available from some of the competitors. Cat had some of the higher compression Diesel engines out there, and keep in mind they started building diesels in 1931, at that time there was no electric starting technology that was sufficient to crank over the high compression Cat engines. Thus the starting engine was born, Cat ran starting engines so long, in fact it wasn’t until they were confident that electric starting technology was reliable enough to get their engines started that they did away from starting engines. (Starter, glow plugs, battery, etc). Even though electric start began to become available you still had the option of a gas starting engine for some time before they disappeared. In climates up here in the winter you couldn’t rely on batteries to get the 2UD8 running in the morning to clear bush. But so long as you could crank up that starting engine, get the diesel spinning over (sometimes you had to burn a whole tank of fuel before you had enough heat for the diesel to pop off) but you could always get fired up to work for the day. My grandpa tells me stories of how he would have rather had a starting engine that was well maintained vs an electric start especially in the winter months as it was much more reliable. Btw if you want to run a D8 with a pan for a week just come on up man we’ll let you loose :)
Well Caterpillar did so love their pre combustion chamber engines. The down side of them is that they are not really good at generating enough heat in the combustion chamber when you crank the engine over. That is why the need for the pony motor starter, or the later glow plugs to provide a source of heat to get the diesel fuel to light off. Direct injection diesel engines this isn't such a big deal.
I was told some years ago that engineering recruits to Caterpillar, as part of their training were seconded to Briggs and Stratton to learn engine design. Many baulked at that considering B&S were so far below their level, despite at that time being the largest engine manufacturer in the world.
Great memories. Back in the day, I was driving a DW20 Cat Scraper for a contractor. Removing overburden on an opencast coal mine. Summer work, mostly, for rubber tyred machines, as the final layer was marine clay. Slippery when wet!! Shift length? 14 hours. Season length? 8 months. 6 day week. pony motors were run ONCE per day. After a start, we ALWAYS let the pony's run out of fuel. I never heard of one dying.
I have had D2s with rope start all the way up to a 9G with electric start and even at -40 in time the dozers would start. When I lived in Norman Wells NWT Canada I worked for a pilot and road builder. He found 10, D2's up on the Canol line from WWII 2 men can lift any part of the still greased packed parts. We brought 6 of them back out in a Pilatus Porter. When assembled they just fired up like they were brand new. Thanks a bunch for going through this for us. Lots of good memories of when I was young and strong.
as an amatuer the pony motors maybe archaic by nature BUT when used to pre-heat the main engine quickly and effisently there is nothing archaic about them, and i applaud you Squatch for the amazing series and renovation on this little tractor
First time commenting here ! I have to say I love watching your videos! I’m a younger heavy equipment technician up in northeast pa. It’s awesome to see the passion and knowledge you have for these old cats. Makes me wish equipment was still that simple.
With those older Diesel engines even a new modern gear reduction starter would struggle to survive with extended cranking times let alone battery life. I would imagine more than 1 old Delco starter was melted down trying to start them
Using the fuel shutoff to stop small engines is still the best practice today, especially on equipment you only use every few months. Waiting a few extra moments for the engine to run out of fuel sure beats cleaning the gunk out the carb every year.
I originally found this channel because of my interest in learning more about "pony" motor starting systems. That alone cemented my opinion of these little gems lol!
I love the starting motors. It is the only way I ever learned to start the old cat road grader we had at the field. Before I was around, my buddy had the road grader with a pony motor, but the carb was junk. He used to park it at the top of the property and roll it down the hill shooting it with starting fluid. One day he took a miss step and almost fell between the wheels, that was too close to death or worse for him. He spent the next day milling up an adapter for a jet ski carb to be attached to the starting motor and used the starting motor the rest of the time he had the grader at the field. He was good at adapting and over coming. Fond memories.
I had a 1950 D47U with a pony motor. At first, I thought about converting it to electric start. But the more I used it the more I began to appreciate it for all of the reasons you mentioned. It started every time and I didn't have to worry about a dead battery. I appreciated your explanation of the pros and cons. Thanks.
@@squatch253 that's another major point: how much did that 3400.cost to rebuild/replace when these machines were still relevant? How much down time? Did the owner or dealer have an easy way to get the machine on a truck and to the shop? The starting engine reduces a LOT of those issues to naught. And if the starting engine died out in the woods it could be removed and replaced relatively easy.
@@casparberends2719 I think you can answer that question with another question: Where would you put it? The oil capacity is constrained by the size of the block. More oil means a bigger engine for what benefit?
I like the principle of the starting engine, saved wear and tear on the diesel trying to start for the first time of the day. With that being said, I did put a Cat factory electric starter on my D4 7U as that had the removable 3 bolt cover in the bellhousing. I figured another starting method is never a bad idea, but the early machines never had that option, like the RD-4 or 5J1113 (other than pull starting them) Great info as always, thanks Toby!
An old operator told me when he started his career he was an oiler & showed up before sunrise & they always kept one pony motor on one doser in good working order & push started the rest of the equipment
I will not say we abused the Start Engine. Much North of you - I recall in -15F weather - I ran the Pup for 10 minutes - before we closed the Compression valve, It was 20 minutes before we got on the rig and hit it with fuel. If the engine did not light up - I left it another 15 or 20 - and once running, never shut it down for 8 hrs. Thank You!
Thanks for putting the good info out. It is very hard for folks raised on the tight tolerances we work to now, to look at how things were done in the old days. I've seen stuff done by farm workers that worked, but were sketchy to the max. But times are changing... and not for the better. You are really helping guys see that. And it's important, especially in this day and age of less parts and longer wait times. Learning to make things last as long as possible will be extremely important going forward.
My Grandfather used to say that he liked the pony motors better than electric start. He did a lot of logging back in the day. He liked magneto's, points, and updraft carburetors.
You are a great teacher. I love your passion for this old stuff and the old technology. Listening to you talk about those wrist pin clips was great. I was cracking up laughing thinking if anyone saw me watching this and agreeing with you they would think I'm nuts. I've never owned a cat but remember the expressway going in back in the early 60's. My friends and I would play on the machinery after they left or could watch them all day.
I was digging through the scrap pile at work and found a tiny crankshaft and 2 pistons on rods. Just from you videos I was able to identify them as off a d2 starting engine. They were completely toast after being buried is the dirt for approximately 50 years.
I was running a D-2 Cat when I was 10 years old. The starting engine was a thrill to rope start and operate the clutch and engine. It always popped right off.
Back when I was learning to fly one of the things my instructor hammered into me was that you shut down a light aircraft engine by leaning the mixture not the mag switch. The switch works by grounding the mag. If the wire breaks the mag stays hot. The mag has an impulse coupling. If it stops at the right spot, a slight nudge and a few gasoline fumes can give one more pop, enough to swing a prop blade. No big deal except one of the few places you can grab a light plane to move it on the ground is the prop, close to the hub.
extremely interesting rebuild My father had a RD4 cat no blade from new in lower New Zealand from 1930s as a contractor pulling a moleplough summer and winter for 16 thousand hours.Had to replace the flywheel and bearing on starter motor nothing else. Main engine required three sets of main and bigend bearing shells in the first 900 hours untill a lack of a oil cooler was found to be the cause for the failure.Both the cat RD/D2 and the RD/D4s used the same sterter engine .
I love the pony start, in the late 70's as a teenager I worked summers at a Boy Scout summer camp and we had a late 40's D-4 and I used it every week, just loved the routine of starting it, though ours you started from the driver's seat, had a diesel engine pinion engage knob on the left side of the dash and the compression leaver and pony throttle and choke were on the right side, have never seen another like it before or since.
Really enjoy your series, especially the pony motors. I restore vintage Garden Tractors and I have several 18 hp Briggs opposed twin flat heads 70's - 80's vintage, that while more advanced (sleeved aluminum blocks, electric start, etc) they do share the more simple flat tappet designs, no oil pumps, and simple carbs, and I really enjoy working on these. Like you, I find this very therapeutic.
I’m from the school of liking starting engines, especially when bleeding diesel fuel system. 45 years ago I ran a Bucyrus-Erie 22B with a D318, rope start only pony. Would generally start in 1 or 2 pulls. Yes, always, always shut off gas and let run dry and besides preventing oil dilution the carb will be dry so it won’t gum up if let stand for extended periods of time. The 22B I spoke of sat for about 15 years, I went to start it, poured fresh gas in tank and it fired up like it had been run yesterday.
I’m pretty much like you. On my old Cat D6 4R series crawler, l always enjoyed firing up my pony motor. It’s rope pull start. Made sure I had a good mag to throw the fire at it. Made sure the carburetor was clean and adjusted well, and oil was clean and full. Is mounted and plumbed in a little oil gauge to the top of the starting motor so I could squat down there on the tracks as I’d be cranking and turning the Diesel engine over getting it warmed up, and could monitor my oil pressure, making sure my diesel had good oil pressure. Plus it was warming that diesel up. And something about just listening to that pony motor purring away and turning that diesel over until I was satisfied she was ready make some smoke. Crack my diesel throttle open and reach down and place that compression release leve to “run” and that diesel would fire up every time. Man that moved me around with his semi lowboy told me, one thing he always could rely on, was when he came to move me, he knew my Cat was going to start, and we’d get loaded and be on the road in short order. You take care of that pony motor, and it’ll take care of you. I also never used that kill switch. Is always turn that wing nut cock shut-off on my sight jar close and let the pony motor run itself out of gas to shut down.
I'll be honest with you about starting engines. I've never experienced starting engines except to watch them being used from a distance. But I have experienced electric starter and air powered starter. And from your explanation of the starting engines, it's definitely worth looking into the rebuild of the starting engines. The benefits out weigh the convenience of the other ideas for starting the diesel engine. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the starting engines....
Great episode - though you had me going with the thumbnail - I thought you’d mounted the motor ! We must be getting pretty close to this little thing rolling now.
Love those starting engines, especially for cold weather. Did not have an issue with diesel compression, all the machines that I ran had compression release controls.
The starting engine is part of the character/charm of the tractor. As a kid, watching my Dad 'start the D2', the unique crackle of its exhaust note, the diesel engine starting with associated plume of smoke when the throttle was cracked open, this was all mesmerizing to watch. Unfortunately I don't have my Dad's D2, but I have one just like it. The starting engine is a winner in my book.
Many of your viewers are looking at the pony starting engine with a 2021 perspective. A better way is to look at the pony engine in the period that it was designed and built. During this time, horses were not a distant memory. I thought it took a lot of time to start a D2 until I realized that getting a horse ready for work took a lot more time compared to the pony motor. Twice every day, in the morning and night, the horse had to get fed. The horse had to be watered multiple times in the day. Then there was cleaning out the barn… On a related side note - I remember you talking about one of the drain tubes on the main engine. The mess made from that drain tube was far smaller than the mess made from the horse.
Didn't know anything about starting engines until I found your channel. The concept of no battery has a certain cool factor. Older technologies are way more interesting than these computer designed and operated motors today. Of course the skills of the restorer is just as interesting. Keep it up.
Dad's Rd6 was started weekly at midnight on Sunday evening and never shut off until midnight the following Saturday. It was pulling a seven bottom moldboard plow 24 hours a day turning wheat stubble in NC Kansas starting in 1936. The tractor was finally retired and sold in 1965.
Thank you for the video.I appreciate that you aren't dismissive of the folks that neglected the starter motors maintanence. Lord Muck,on his channel, talked about a pony motor on a Belarus tractor. It was a two stroke motor because, he said, the lack of crankcase oil made it easier to start in the colder temperatures.Neat!
In 1970 I worked on a ranch in South Central Idaho. We had an old D7, an even older 1HD8 and an IH TD6. The pony motor on the D8 cranked from the front of the engine and would either start on the first try or not at all. The D7 cranked from the top and if you weren't careful would kick back and throw you off the track you stood on. The D7 pony motor would start most of the time but not always willingly. The TD6 started on gas and then would be switched over to diesel. Some mornings I would eventually use the TD6 to push start the D7 and then use the D7 to push start the D8. Lots of fun the summer. I did use the D8 to pull a cable scraper with the D7 pushing the can for a few weeks building up pads for irrigation ditches. Lots of memories from that summer...
My dad's d2 was I think a 4u or 5u model. It had an electric start for the pony motor. I remember that due to the battery being under the seat. And the diesel tank behind the operator seat. Which is my favorite model of D2.
I think you enlighten us all on this discussion about reliability of the staring engines! And I agree with you, I think it all depends on how well you keep the maintenance on them, and not only on them engines! But the entire machine!👌😎👍great content!
Your correct about the starting engine. And people that operate them and know to is loss in the pass. That's why I find that the information you give is a piece of history. And information is key. Ty for what you share with us.
We have overhauled my D2 pony motor a couple months ago and since I have owned it for 40 years and use it quiet often, we were surprised how little internal wear it had. It a little low on compression so we thought it was time for a tear down. the valves had great margin left but leaking somewhat as were the rings. We honed the cylinders enough for new rings and that took 95% of the scratches out. Ground the valves and seats, the stems and guides were serviceable also. We did have to make a new main , it hadn't spun, but had .011 wear. Polished the crank and used the good rod bearings. I have changed the oil faithfully, turned the gas off after starting the diesel also. I also think the pony is very useful for heating the jacket water, preheating the intake manifold and prelubing the diesel before starting. We agree that the pony is very basic. Thanks for backing me on the use of the pony. Howell Machine, LLC
Great video! I have run equipment with starting engines for 45 years. If you take care of them, they run and operate perfectly. Where there are complaints, the issues could be traced to poor maintenance, no warm up, no cool down or low oil. The starting sequence is important to take care of the pony and Diesel engine. Love my pony start equipment! The main reason starting engines were used is the lack of power in the 6 volt starters, the wouldn’t turn a diesel over under compression, whala the starting engine was born. Thank you again for all of your efforts!
Worked as a tech where we had 2 - D9G one with a pony engine one without. We had 2 to 3 times as many issues with the electric start vs the pony engine. When starting a massive engine as the 353 having the oil pressure, heat before compression and fuel is a plus with the pony engine
Excellent video the starting engine definitely has it's place especially in a cold climate like Minnesota and a lot of areas electric start system would not have enough battery capacity especially in the time era when 5j1113 was built it takes a good starter to get a modern diesel engine running. The short block is looking good. When I was growing up we had a John Deere 720 diesel tractor with pony start the engine was not in great condition but it always started the big 2 cylinder diesel engine. Then years later I got a 720 John Deere diesel tractor with electric start and it would start to 40 degrees and any thing colder forget it I wished it would have had a pony motor I did not keep that tractor very long because of the poor starting with electric start. That's my experience and even a modern diesel a gear reduction starter makes a world of difference for starting in the cold weather
I know very little about the antique tractor subject and watch because you supply a straight forward honest opinion on what you are doing weather it’s the rebuild or field and the opinion is not jaded by anyone. I wish more folks had that way of thinking and thanks for the information, technical instructions, humor (sort of) and overall entertainment. Mike Y STL
My Dad was a heavy equipment operator in Iowa. I can remember him going to work early on really cold mornings. Start the pony motor and just let turn the diesel over for a while to warm it up just like you talked about in this video. Weak batteries, corroded cables, gelled fuel and worn engines with low compression made a lot of battery start stuff a no start. Of course, Dad did ever also use some ether he got from the neighborhood pharmacist. Stuff was really volatile. I can remember Dad saying you had to be careful with the stuff or it would lift a cylinder head. I don't remember and Dad's gone but knowing him he probably used the ether on the pony motor to get it started in the extreme cold.
@@squatch253 When I was in automotive tech school in 1971, several of our instructors told us that they preferred to hold a gasoline soaked shop rag near the air intake instead of using ether to help a cold soaked diesel engine fire up.
The switcher at the Collinwood Yards ran 24/7 They never shut it off unless it needed work. It was nice to have a warm cab in the yard when it was cold. In the "old days",CAT would have come in R&R the unit, put on an overhauled unit and return the core for service. I was in the new CAT facility in Ohio. The service and repair department is amazing. They have a huge dyno. and hoists that can pick a fire truck no problem.
Treating a starting engine like a diesel could make them last longer. Let them idle for a period of time to warm them before applying a load. Also let them idle to cool down before stopping.
Their is nothing wrong with the pony starting system John Deere used it on their first two cylinders tractors just take care of the ponys and the horses will do the work
I never used a Cat pony start but ran a JD 2-Cyl Diesel for years with a Pony start. As you described the later Cat versions it did heat the intake manifold with its exhaust. It was also water cooled and heated the diesel block. It was a 4-cyl however and had two speeds, run and start. Run to warm the diesel and start to start the diesel. Most of the year we could start the diesel in 10 seconds if it was arm. If it was cold, perhaps 20 seconds including time to see oil pressure before releasing the decompression lever. If it was cold (below zero F) then we'd let it run for 10 or 15 minutes and the diesel would fire right up. It always worked and didn't care about cold. The biggest downside was the tractor thus had a 6V system so it was good you did field work at 3 or 4 MPH because if you were going any faster in the dark you wouldn't see the fence in time to stop! LOL!
A retired excavator lived next to me, lots of alignment been your comments and his! He also said they used to lubricate the tracks in the morning with diesel fuel, pouring it all over the tracks…..yikes! Great videos, thank you!!
My Dad owned a small town power plant in the early 50's. Ran 24-7 except for oil changes. He said the engine vibration caused more damage to Pony motor than actual use. I wish I could remember what part he was referring to.
I don't know much about diesel engines or Cat bulldozers. I subscribed and love to watch you put stuff together with care and precision always double checking everything. Plus you have a cool shop and everything is nice and clean and organized.
Your spot-on about starting engines construction n longevity .In 74 JD 2cly mechanic ( nowadays technician) said farmer's just wanted to push starter button and go not Tinker around with starter engine .Back then you just ran it n traded it in for something new, ,it's a circleback moment because now the emphasis is on restoring them back to New .
i have heard a lot of guys complain about starting engines and i agree with you ,, I have a 1959 john deere 730D and it has the pony start and i love it ,, minus 15 degrees ,i can go out start the pony engine , let it run and warm up for about 15 minutes ,, that's time for a cup of coffee ...go out jump up on the seat ,pull the compression release , hold the clutch ,wind up the pony and i do mean wind up too cause it'll hit 5000 rpm ,engage the starter and it'll turn maybe 8 revolutions before it clunks to life ,,that old devil will start when my newer 4960 won't even think of waking up till i plug itin for an hour,,my grandfather bought it brand new and it's still on the farm 63 years later being used to plow snow
I’ve always like the starting engine from the old caterpillar to the old two cylinder John Deere after seeing what you have done with the old starting engines makes me want to find a old D2 caterpillar to bring back to life
Starting engines are the reason a lot of these"older" Cats still exist. (my opinion) Much more service life out of the main engine, most of an engine's wear is on startup (I have heard upwards of 95%)
Squatch, it would be great, (but yes a lot of work for YOU!) to see a complete video inventory of all your vehicles. Completed ones, ones in progress and even ones awaiting a future tear down. From what I can see, you have a lot but I think everyone would enjoy seeing ALL of your tractors and Cats.
My dad tuned up the starting engine on a D315 gen set. Both engines were in pretty good shape. Using a battery start on the starting engine we could have the main engine running in less than a minute. We always like starting engines for Cats. The way we ran them they say for months at a time. In this time batteries you loose charge. A well tuned starting engine would always start at -10 when batteries would fail.
My Dad bought a new D4 in 1953 so I grew up around the pony motor. I still have the dozer. Have started it at 20 below zero by pulling one spark plug, giving it a little squirter of gas, then pulling the starter rope. Anything that can last 69 years on a ranch is impressive.
I certainly agree with your analysis of the pony motor. I have a similar reaction every time I see someone put on a 12 volt 'conversation' on a tractor.
We had a D2 on the farm for awhile. Never knew much about the starting motors and I don’t believe we EVER shut the gas off to the starting motor. Of course we purchased the D2 from a jockey to do a job, it did the job and then eventually got sold. Never once saw and operators manual. The starting motor was not in great shape and definitely needed a rebuild. Makes sense as to why.
Since the starting engines are so "simple" and parts hard to find, I've often thought about building one from scratch just to see if I can. Just one of those someday projects I hope to get to when everything else has been restored. Great video as always!
Depending on how much you want to diy it, you could easily start with a 75cc crate engine s/a harbor freight predator. The big task is adapting the assembly to drive the bigboy engine with some sort of overrun clutch/bendix. A 50cc might have the chooch for the job, but itll need a lot of reduction gears
@@Hyratel I'm thinking more along the lines of actually copying the pony. Most of the components shouldn't be too tough, but there's a few I'm not capable of making myself. The thing I don't like about using a crate motor is you can't tie the coolant system into it like with original pony. I've seen a D2 for sale with a Predator on the fender, just didn't look good in my opinion.
@@Hyratel I get that too. I feel like on a project like this, the value it's solely in thr pride I get of accomplishing something that has been an idea in the back of my head for years. And making something that keeps the original look if thre tractor.
i was thinking 2 large off the shelf semi truck starter motors and an ignition switch would have worked just as well and been so much easier and cheaper, BUT after thinking about it more... these pony motors worked well for a long time and didnt need a battery to turn over and get the dozer moving even if the main big engine didnt run at all. Their magneto system and hand cranking reminds me of the Ford Model T (and they also only had splash lube and small amount of oil capacity)
In the early seventies I ran a 1967 D7E with a pony engine. Kept it so it would start easy ( tune up and maint ) When it got cold I could start that dozer when the newer ones would not start. Kinda liked the pony motor.
About not shutting down machines. I remember reading a book about the construction of some of the Australian outback roads like the gunbarrel highway. Apparently they broke the starter on one of their cats and just ran it for a week or more while parts arrived
In the late 1950's I-81 was built through northeastern PA. I lived two doors down from where they parked the cable pan scrapers and pushers at night, so we didn't need alarm clocks that summer - just after daylight every working day we were up just after daylight when they started those monsters up. Pony motors first, then the diesels. Everything was D-8's as memory serves. Anyway, the point is that yes, the pony would run for maybe five minutes, then the diesel would start, and it usually ran 10 hours a day or more. So your question about how good does it need to be is right on the mark.
I have talked to a few of the old guys in the thornbury vintage club in southland New Zealandthat I am a member of and they have said that 30 to 40 thousand hours was not uncommon between O haul of the main engine in the D2 and D4 crawlers and that was probably hard work as well
Personally, having a starting engine is what says vintage Cat to me. My great uncle ran a Cat from the 50's for the company he and his brothers owned until he retired in the 90's. Same machine forever, and it likely wasn't new when it was purchased. Adding pressure lube would have been great, but probably would have doubled or tripled the cost. Adding a pump and oil capacity seems easy on the surface, but pressure lube would have necessitated block casting changes, way more machine work drilling oil galleries, and a solid crank would have been needed. All of this would have also increased weight greatly. Having no hands on experience with these, the only short coming I can see is they needed an updraft carburetor to minimize oil dilution when the gas isn't turned off.
I Have a 49 Model R John Deere with the 2 cyl starting motor. At one time cat and jd were married at the hip, thus jd having a starting pony motor. Great stuff. Always starts, warms the main engine, it takes some time to do that when it is really cold, but always starts. Thanks for the presentation.
Hey Squatch, another great vid with some really neat info. Here’s one to consider. Imagine if you would an engine that operates at quite extreme limits. It cannot be cranked cold as the tolerances are so tight, the engine is effectively seized when below operating temperature. This engine requires an external source to heat its coolant and lubricant. Furthermore, it requires an external device to spin the engine up for starting. In case you have not guessed, I am referring to a Formula 1 race car. I think it’s interesting to look at what is (arguably) the most advanced engine in the world and compare it to what is something significantly less complex: the similarity is striking IMO. With respect to the numbers you quoted re service life, a starting engine would likely remain serviceable for around ten to twelve years: with that number in mind, it’s clear that it is perfectly adequate for purpose. Looking forward to the third build.
Talking about close tolerances; the engines in todays cars in order to gain a fraction or two of a mile per gallon have begun to use extremely light engine oil which requires tighter tolerances to operate normally. This may affect the start up procedure especially when cold, I'm not sure, but I would definitely use a block heater even in the other three seasons! It's always caused me to wonder, but such light oil gives practically no tolerance to overheating before terminal engine damage has occurred, and I would think reliability issues would be voiced by the public!
@@garybulwinkle82 my car is a 1972 Triumph Stag. If your unfamiliar, the engine is a 3 litre V8 designed and built in house. The TV8 as it is known has a reputation for temperature related failures. They allow 24 thou lash on the rods, so the spec isn’t tremendous on them! Guess I better run it on that grease squatch puts on the crawler!
Hey squatch thanks for this video I watched it a long time ago when I first got a D2 and the first habit I adopted of yours is to shut the gas off as soon as the diesel starts... I have also used that same Russian out with some other engines that have a downdraft carburetor cuz I think they have been leaking into the crankcase
Having seen the video, I concur with your analysis. I really like the whole starting engine concept. I once had to start my old diesel Rabbit (foolishly went rock hounding to an old mine in the Colorado Rockies during the winter…) with a battery that had frozen and split. Used a 9v transistor radio battery to keep the fuel solenoid open, pointed it down the mountain, and let it roll in gear. After enough fuel (which had gelled) got pushed through the injector pump and back to the tank, it started to fire. About half a mile of black smoke and it cleared up. Drove it 200 miles + back to Denver without stopping. Great car, wish it had had a starting motor!
@@dans_Learning_Curve my job at the time was a small diesel mechanic, so I new the engine well. Mercedes used a vacuum solenoid, I would have had more trouble with that!
Great video as always . The way you explained the starting engine. I will whole hardly agree with you. I run a old D7 cat. With a staring motor. It was hard to start when it was cold. You turned it over but could not choke it til it fired them pull the choke out. Aw the gold days.
Electric start would wear out faster than petrol on long cranks. I don't know much about cat machines but have replaced more Electric starter motors in 30 years than I care to remember. Been watching this build from the start, hi from Australia 🇦🇺
Nice to see someone stating that simple is as good as it needs to be.. so much these days is made so complicated that if it stops going you need a university degree and ten years learning just to start working on it... never mind all the special computer controlled gear to even find out what is wrong. Added to that... nice to hear someone telling people that it is best to follow procedures and use common sense when operating equipment.
Speaking to the issue of starting engines, I personally love the idea because you don't have any electronics to worry about. Sure the points can be tricky, but a little bit of matchbook paper can fix that. Also being able to roll the diesel over with no compression and bring up oil pressure and temp is far easier on it than a dry/cold start. This is why I'm seeking to aquire one of these vintage cats vs buying a newer one. Everything is mechanical and metal vs computer controlled and electrical.
Squatch; I had a D4D with direct electric start and it was 24 volt. I used it for my logging operatiion for road building and snow plowing (northern MN ) My opinion was the electric start was way less desirable than a starting engine. I usually gave the glow plugs two cycles and if it didn't start you then were stuck boosting the batteries one at a time. Electric start was the main reason I sold it. Once it was running it was a great snow plowing rig with the power shift and angle blade with tilt. Mark
Can’t wait for the long block build and install on the Diesel engine and he’ll want to see the tractor going back together! Been watching you a long time Squatch and smile every time I see a new 1113 video pop up!!!!
I was all set to find one and rebuild it…… then I heard 30-40 yrs outta production overhaul kits………well shucks . Just like anything else you operate that’s been quality engineered : YA GOTTA KNOW WHAT YOU’RE DOING TO RUN IT AND DO IT RIGHT. you keep building and I’ll keep watching 👍❤️😉
Another thought regarding these engines and old gasoline engines in general. So many people have trouble with their carburetors getting gummed up. I think it’s a relatively simple step to shut off the gas and let the engine burn through what’s in the carb. If there isn’t any fuel in the carb to make a mess, you have helped yourself avoid frustration and untimely repairs. I do this with my Farmall “M” and so far so good. Simple solutions can be good.
I remember my dad buying a Briggs and Stratton workshop manual, reading it and then religiously following its advice of always letting the carb run dry.
14:56 I fully agree with you that the starting engines are misunderstood and under-appreciated. The technology is antiquated by today's standards, no doubt, but people often fail to think of the circumstances that both owners/operators, and engineers, had to deal with when these machines were built 80+ years ago. As Ironman3406 mentioned, electric starting was barely in its infancy (even on gas engines) when these tractors were built, and the technology for an efficient electric starter in higher-compression diesel engines hadn't been conceived yet. We all know how much of a bear those old diesel engines are to start when they are cold; the quintessential fix for this would seem to be an all-in-one "starting motor" with the ability to pressurize the oil and heat the coolant all at once. The starting engine concept did an excellent job of that. I feel like the starting engines were well-designed to serve a doomed life. The concept was genius (for the era) but very few operators cared enough to take the proper steps to make them last (especially since they weren't the ones paying for the equipment) - hence the failure rate and the need for frequent rebuilds on those starting. The same holds true today when it comes to consumer-grade power equipment. I think it's safe to say that walk-behind mowers and entry-level riding mowers take more abuse than any other equipment out there - most homeowners don't maintain them properly and will just run them into the ground, or throw away and buy a new one every few years. But at least the parts for most mowers are easy to find...unless we are forced to switch entirely over to electric lawn equipment, I don't think the parts supply (or dealer support) for gas-powered mowers will disappear any time soon.
Hi Squatch, great discussion, and it got me to thinking about the Farmall M diesel I spent last winter doing the engine rebuild on. Its starting system was another option, which essentially incorporated a pony gasoline start system right into the main diesel engine. No one used this option except for IHC, and they developed it in the 1920's, as a way to achieve the efficiency of diesel power before glow plugs, batteries, and starters were strong enough to crank over high compression engines. Like pony motors, this system eventually disappeared with advances in technology. Before I went through the engine, I thought it was a poor system, as the tractor would hardly ever start below 40 degrees. After rebuilding it, it easily starts on gas in just about any temperature. During the process, I learned that one of the most important aspects to the longevity of the whole system is in how it is operated; the proper steps taken to start it, cool it down before shutdown, and the gas/compression settings to leave it in after it is shut down. This is similar to your discussion on pony motors getting a bad rap due to poor maintenance.
My I ask, how many different shirts were worn during the writing of your response?
I grew up with a couple of Farmall MDs. The first thing I learned was the proper way to start them on gas, how long to let them run before switching to diesel, and then switching back to running on gas before shutting the engine down. As long as the gasoline side was working as it should, it was very reliable. You just needed to properly maintain the gasoline starting side of the operation.
@@squatch253 Would love to see you upgrade one of the three engines to electronic ignition as it would improve reliability and starting made easier. They can be temprimental, the Wico mag on my D4 seems a lot more reliable on the Eisenmans I have on other Cats. What do you think ? Will be working on my Cat D2 3 j soon. its number 3j506
As a retired auto mechanic I didn't realize until recently, talking to a motorcycle restoration friend that the magneto magnets needed re-energized in old distributors, resulting in weak spark. Probably the wrong terminology, but you get the idea. Does that apply to all magnetos?
Good to see Pete in the house!
Absolutely nothing wrong with a starting engine!! Chatted with an old Cat engineer once and there is good reason Cat stuck with a starting engine for so long even though electric was available from some of the competitors. Cat had some of the higher compression Diesel engines out there, and keep in mind they started building diesels in 1931, at that time there was no electric starting technology that was sufficient to crank over the high compression Cat engines. Thus the starting engine was born, Cat ran starting engines so long, in fact it wasn’t until they were confident that electric starting technology was reliable enough to get their engines started that they did away from starting engines. (Starter, glow plugs, battery, etc). Even though electric start began to become available you still had the option of a gas starting engine for some time before they disappeared. In climates up here in the winter you couldn’t rely on batteries to get the 2UD8 running in the morning to clear bush. But so long as you could crank up that starting engine, get the diesel spinning over (sometimes you had to burn a whole tank of fuel before you had enough heat for the diesel to pop off) but you could always get fired up to work for the day. My grandpa tells me stories of how he would have rather had a starting engine that was well maintained vs an electric start especially in the winter months as it was much more reliable. Btw if you want to run a D8 with a pan for a week just come on up man we’ll let you loose :)
Enjoy stories like these!
Where are you located? How far north? I'm in MN.
@@dans_Learning_Curve central Saskatchewan
Well Caterpillar did so love their pre combustion chamber engines. The down side of them is that they are not really good at generating enough heat in the combustion chamber when you crank the engine over. That is why the need for the pony motor starter, or the later glow plugs to provide a source of heat to get the diesel fuel to light off. Direct injection diesel engines this isn't such a big deal.
I was told some years ago that engineering recruits to Caterpillar, as part of their training were seconded to Briggs and Stratton to learn engine design. Many baulked at that considering B&S were so far below their level, despite at that time being the largest engine manufacturer in the world.
@@peterscandlyn I worked on Briggs and Stratton 4 stroke singles in highschool
I have a Briggs and Stratton genset that runs off ng
Great memories. Back in the day, I was driving a DW20 Cat Scraper for a contractor. Removing overburden on an opencast coal mine. Summer work, mostly, for rubber tyred machines, as the final layer was marine clay. Slippery when wet!! Shift length? 14 hours. Season length? 8 months. 6 day week. pony motors were run ONCE per day. After a start, we ALWAYS let the pony's run out of fuel. I never heard of one dying.
I have had D2s with rope start all the way up to a 9G with electric start and even at -40 in time the dozers would start. When I lived in Norman Wells NWT Canada I worked for a pilot and road builder. He found 10, D2's up on the Canol line from WWII 2 men can lift any part of the still greased packed parts. We brought 6 of them back out in a Pilatus Porter. When assembled they just fired up like they were brand new. Thanks a bunch for going through this for us. Lots of good memories of when I was young and strong.
as an amatuer the pony motors maybe archaic by nature BUT when used to pre-heat the main engine quickly and effisently there is nothing archaic about them, and i applaud you Squatch for the amazing series and renovation on this little tractor
I like starting engines. In this day and age any machine that works without an electrical system is cool awesomeness.
I like the starting engines. I like that they’re serviceable. Everything today you throw away and start over and that upsets me
First time commenting here ! I have to say I love watching your videos! I’m a younger heavy equipment technician up in northeast pa. It’s awesome to see the passion and knowledge you have for these old cats. Makes me wish equipment was still that simple.
It sure is nice listening to you talk about what you're working on. This country could use more people like you.
With those older Diesel engines even a new modern gear reduction starter would struggle to survive with extended cranking times let alone battery life. I would imagine more than 1 old Delco starter was melted down trying to start them
You covered all the questions on my mind,excellent episode.
Using the fuel shutoff to stop small engines is still the best practice today, especially on equipment you only use every few months. Waiting a few extra moments for the engine to run out of fuel sure beats cleaning the gunk out the carb every year.
I always unhooked the fuel line on my Mercury outboard backin the day. Never had a carb issue.
I originally found this channel because of my interest in learning more about "pony" motor starting systems. That alone cemented my opinion of these little gems lol!
I love the starting motors. It is the only way I ever learned to start the old cat road grader we had at the field. Before I was around, my buddy had the road grader with a pony motor, but the carb was junk. He used to park it at the top of the property and roll it down the hill shooting it with starting fluid. One day he took a miss step and almost fell between the wheels, that was too close to death or worse for him. He spent the next day milling up an adapter for a jet ski carb to be attached to the starting motor and used the starting motor the rest of the time he had the grader at the field. He was good at adapting and over coming. Fond memories.
I had a 1950 D47U with a pony motor. At first, I thought about converting it to electric start. But the more I used it the more I began to appreciate it for all of the reasons you mentioned. It started every
time and I didn't have to worry about a dead battery. I appreciated your explanation of the pros and cons. Thanks.
I've always been a fan of the whole concept of starting engines for the exact same reasons you mentioned, particularly for large diesels.
The design was exactly what was needed. The pony motor needed to be simple and able to take abuse.
@@squatch253 that's another major point: how much did that 3400.cost to rebuild/replace when these machines were still relevant? How much down time? Did the owner or dealer have an easy way to get the machine on a truck and to the shop? The starting engine reduces a LOT of those issues to naught. And if the starting engine died out in the woods it could be removed and replaced relatively easy.
@@squatch253 only thing I wonder about, why so little oil in crankcase? This makes the ponies much more vulnerable than necessary.
@@casparberends2719 I think you can answer that question with another question: Where would you put it? The oil capacity is constrained by the size of the block. More oil means a bigger engine for what benefit?
I like the principle of the starting engine, saved wear and tear on the diesel trying to start for the first time of the day. With that being said, I did put a Cat factory electric starter on my D4 7U as that had the removable 3 bolt cover in the bellhousing. I figured another starting method is never a bad idea, but the early machines never had that option, like the RD-4 or 5J1113 (other than pull starting them)
Great info as always, thanks Toby!
An old operator told me when he started his career he was an oiler & showed up before sunrise & they always kept one pony motor on one doser in good working order & push started the rest of the equipment
I will not say we abused the Start Engine. Much North of you - I recall in -15F weather - I ran the Pup for 10 minutes - before we closed the Compression valve, It was 20 minutes before we got on the rig and hit it with fuel. If the engine did not light up - I left it another 15 or 20 - and once running, never shut it down for 8 hrs. Thank You!
Thanks for putting the good info out. It is very hard for folks raised on the tight tolerances we work to now, to look at how things were done in the old days. I've seen stuff done by farm workers that worked, but were sketchy to the max. But times are changing... and not for the better. You are really helping guys see that. And it's important, especially in this day and age of less parts and longer wait times. Learning to make things last as long as possible will be extremely important going forward.
My Grandfather used to say that he liked the pony motors better than electric start. He did a lot of logging back in the day. He liked magneto's, points, and updraft carburetors.
I am with you on the starting engine, such a novelty and a great way to warm up the main diesel. Thanks for the video.
You are a great teacher. I love your passion for this old stuff and the old technology. Listening to you talk about those wrist pin clips was great. I was cracking up laughing thinking if anyone saw me watching this and agreeing with you they would think I'm nuts. I've never owned a cat but remember the expressway going in back in the early 60's. My friends and I would play on the machinery after they left or could watch them all day.
I was digging through the scrap pile at work and found a tiny crankshaft and 2 pistons on rods. Just from you videos I was able to identify them as off a d2 starting engine.
They were completely toast after being buried is the dirt for approximately 50 years.
I was running a D-2 Cat when I was 10 years old. The starting engine was a thrill to rope start and operate the clutch and engine. It always popped right off.
Back when I was learning to fly one of the things my instructor hammered into me was that you shut down a light aircraft engine by leaning the mixture not the mag switch. The switch works by grounding the mag. If the wire breaks the mag stays hot. The mag has an impulse coupling. If it stops at the right spot, a slight nudge and a few gasoline fumes can give one more pop, enough to swing a prop blade. No big deal except one of the few places you can grab a light plane to move it on the ground is the prop, close to the hub.
extremely interesting rebuild My father had a RD4 cat no blade from new in lower New Zealand from 1930s as a contractor pulling a moleplough summer and winter for 16 thousand hours.Had to replace the flywheel and bearing on starter motor nothing else. Main engine required three sets of main and bigend bearing shells in the first 900 hours untill a lack of a oil cooler was found to be the cause for the failure.Both the cat RD/D2 and the RD/D4s used the same sterter engine .
I love the pony start, in the late 70's as a teenager I worked summers at a Boy Scout summer camp and we had a late 40's D-4 and I used it every week, just loved the routine of starting it, though ours you started from the driver's seat, had a diesel engine pinion engage knob on the left side of the dash and the compression leaver and pony throttle and choke were on the right side, have never seen another like it before or since.
Really enjoy your series, especially the pony motors. I restore vintage Garden Tractors and I have several 18 hp Briggs opposed twin flat heads 70's - 80's vintage, that while more advanced (sleeved aluminum blocks, electric start, etc) they do share the more simple flat tappet designs, no oil pumps, and simple carbs, and I really enjoy working on these. Like you, I find this very therapeutic.
First Dozer I ever ran was a 69 D8 with a pup, little temperamental but always started up the main. Second was a D7 same setup, got the job done too.
I’m from the school of liking starting engines, especially when bleeding diesel fuel system. 45 years ago I ran a Bucyrus-Erie 22B with a D318, rope start only pony. Would generally start in 1 or 2 pulls. Yes, always, always shut off gas and let run dry and besides preventing oil dilution the carb will be dry so it won’t gum up if let stand for extended periods of time. The 22B I spoke of sat for about 15 years, I went to start it, poured fresh gas in tank and it fired up like it had been run yesterday.
I’m pretty much like you. On my old Cat D6 4R series crawler, l always enjoyed firing up my pony motor. It’s rope pull start. Made sure I had a good mag to throw the fire at it. Made sure the carburetor was clean and adjusted well, and oil was clean and full. Is mounted and plumbed in a little oil gauge to the top of the starting motor so I could squat down there on the tracks as I’d be cranking and turning the Diesel engine over getting it warmed up, and could monitor my oil pressure, making sure my diesel had good oil pressure. Plus it was warming that diesel up. And something about just listening to that pony motor purring away and turning that diesel over until I was satisfied she was ready make some smoke. Crack my diesel throttle open and reach down and place that compression release leve to “run” and that diesel would fire up every time. Man that moved me around with his semi lowboy told me, one thing he always could rely on, was when he came to move me, he knew my Cat was going to start, and we’d get loaded and be on the road in short order. You take care of that pony motor, and it’ll take care of you. I also never used that kill switch. Is always turn that wing nut cock shut-off on my sight jar close and let the pony motor run itself out of gas to shut down.
I'll be honest with you about starting engines. I've never experienced starting engines except to watch them being used from a distance. But I have experienced electric starter and air powered starter. And from your explanation of the starting engines, it's definitely worth looking into the rebuild of the starting engines. The benefits out weigh the convenience of the other ideas for starting the diesel engine. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the starting engines....
I have to admit the air start is reliable too,
Great episode - though you had me going with the thumbnail - I thought you’d mounted the motor !
We must be getting pretty close to this little thing rolling now.
Your explanation made perfect sense to me.
Thanks.👍
Those engines are a beautiful setup. For the simplicity and functionality.
Love those starting engines, especially for cold weather. Did not have an issue with diesel compression, all the machines that I ran had compression release controls.
The starting engine is part of the character/charm of the tractor. As a kid, watching my Dad 'start the D2', the unique crackle of its exhaust note, the diesel engine starting with associated plume of smoke when the throttle was cracked open, this was all mesmerizing to watch. Unfortunately I don't have my Dad's D2, but I have one just like it. The starting engine is a winner in my book.
Many of your viewers are looking at the pony starting engine with a 2021 perspective. A better way is to look at the pony engine in the period that it was designed and built. During this time, horses were not a distant memory.
I thought it took a lot of time to start a D2 until I realized that getting a horse ready for work took a lot more time compared to the pony motor. Twice every day, in the morning and night, the horse had to get fed. The horse had to be watered multiple times in the day. Then there was cleaning out the barn…
On a related side note - I remember you talking about one of the drain tubes on the main engine. The mess made from that drain tube was far smaller than the mess made from the horse.
Didn't know anything about starting engines until I found your channel. The concept of no battery has a certain cool factor. Older technologies are way more interesting than these computer designed and operated motors today. Of course the skills of the restorer is just as interesting. Keep it up.
Dad's Rd6 was started weekly at midnight on Sunday evening and never shut off until midnight the following Saturday. It was pulling a seven bottom moldboard plow 24 hours a day turning wheat stubble in NC Kansas starting in 1936. The tractor was finally retired and sold in 1965.
Wow!
Thank you for the video.I appreciate that you aren't dismissive of the folks that neglected the starter motors maintanence. Lord Muck,on his channel, talked about a pony motor on a Belarus tractor. It was a two stroke motor because, he said, the lack of crankcase oil made it easier to start in the colder temperatures.Neat!
In 1970 I worked on a ranch in South Central Idaho. We had an old D7, an even older 1HD8 and an IH TD6. The pony motor on the D8 cranked from the front of the engine and would either start on the first try or not at all. The D7 cranked from the top and if you weren't careful would kick back and throw you off the track you stood on. The D7 pony motor would start most of the time but not always willingly. The TD6 started on gas and then would be switched over to diesel. Some mornings I would eventually use the TD6 to push start the D7 and then use the D7 to push start the D8. Lots of fun the summer. I did use the D8 to pull a cable scraper with the D7 pushing the can for a few weeks building up pads for irrigation ditches. Lots of memories from that summer...
My dad's d2 was I think a 4u or 5u model. It had an electric start for the pony motor. I remember that due to the battery being under the seat. And the diesel tank behind the operator seat. Which is my favorite model of D2.
As always love your personal opinion on the technical side of everything that you do. Till next time thanks
I think you enlighten us all on this discussion about reliability of the staring engines! And I agree with you, I think it all depends on how well you keep the maintenance on them, and not only on them engines! But the entire machine!👌😎👍great content!
Your correct about the starting engine. And people that operate them and know to is loss in the pass. That's why I find that the information you give is a piece of history. And information is key. Ty for what you share with us.
We have overhauled my D2 pony motor a couple months ago and since I have owned it for 40 years and use it quiet often, we were surprised how little internal wear it had. It a little low on compression so we thought it was time for a tear down. the valves had great margin left but leaking somewhat as were the rings. We honed the cylinders enough for new rings and that took 95% of the scratches out. Ground the valves and seats, the stems and guides were serviceable also. We did have to make a new main , it hadn't spun, but had .011 wear. Polished the crank and used the good rod bearings. I have changed the oil faithfully, turned the gas off after starting the diesel also. I also think the pony is very useful for heating the jacket water, preheating the intake manifold and prelubing the diesel before starting. We agree that the pony is very basic. Thanks for backing me on the use of the pony. Howell Machine, LLC
Great video! I have run equipment with starting engines for 45 years. If you take care of them, they run and operate perfectly. Where there are complaints, the issues could be traced to poor maintenance, no warm up, no cool down or low oil. The starting sequence is important to take care of the pony and Diesel engine. Love my pony start equipment! The main reason starting engines were used is the lack of power in the 6 volt starters, the wouldn’t turn a diesel over under compression, whala the starting engine was born. Thank you again for all of your efforts!
Worked as a tech where we had 2 - D9G one with a pony engine one without. We had 2 to 3 times as many issues with the electric start vs the pony engine. When starting a massive engine as the 353 having the oil pressure, heat before compression and fuel is a plus with the pony engine
Excellent video the starting engine definitely has it's place especially in a cold climate like Minnesota and a lot of areas electric start system would not have enough battery capacity especially in the time era when 5j1113 was built it takes a good starter to get a modern diesel engine running. The short block is looking good. When I was growing up we had a John Deere 720 diesel tractor with pony start the engine was not in great condition but it always started the big 2 cylinder diesel engine. Then years later I got a 720 John Deere diesel tractor with electric start and it would start to 40 degrees and any thing colder forget it I wished it would have had a pony motor I did not keep that tractor very long because of the poor starting with electric start. That's my experience and even a modern diesel a gear reduction starter makes a world of difference for starting in the cold weather
Correction 5j1113
I know very little about the antique tractor subject and watch because you supply a straight forward honest opinion on what you are doing weather it’s the rebuild or field and the opinion is not jaded by anyone.
I wish more folks had that way of thinking and thanks for the information, technical instructions, humor (sort of) and overall entertainment.
Mike Y STL
My Dad was a heavy equipment operator in Iowa. I can remember him going to work early on really cold mornings. Start the pony motor and just let turn the diesel over for a while to warm it up just like you talked about in this video. Weak batteries, corroded cables, gelled fuel and worn engines with low compression made a lot of battery start stuff a no start. Of course, Dad did ever also use some ether he got from the neighborhood pharmacist. Stuff was really volatile. I can remember Dad saying you had to be careful with the stuff or it would lift a cylinder head. I don't remember and Dad's gone but knowing him he probably used the ether on the pony motor to get it started in the extreme cold.
@@squatch253 When I was in automotive tech school in 1971, several of our instructors told us that they preferred to hold a gasoline soaked shop rag near the air intake instead of using ether to help a cold soaked diesel engine fire up.
A great presentation and nice to see another pony being reassembled.
The switcher at the Collinwood Yards ran 24/7 They never shut it off unless it needed work. It was nice to have a warm cab in the yard when it was cold. In the "old days",CAT would have come in R&R the unit, put on an overhauled unit and return the core for service. I was in the new CAT facility in Ohio. The service and repair department is amazing. They have a huge dyno. and hoists that can pick a fire truck no problem.
Treating a starting engine like a diesel could make them last longer. Let them idle for a period of time to warm them before applying a load. Also let them idle to cool down before stopping.
Their is nothing wrong with the pony starting system John Deere used it on their first two cylinders tractors just take care of the ponys and the horses will do the work
Damn, that's a good looking con rod - very nice proportions and looks very strong.
I never used a Cat pony start but ran a JD 2-Cyl Diesel for years with a Pony start. As you described the later Cat versions it did heat the intake manifold with its exhaust. It was also water cooled and heated the diesel block. It was a 4-cyl however and had two speeds, run and start. Run to warm the diesel and start to start the diesel. Most of the year we could start the diesel in 10 seconds if it was arm. If it was cold, perhaps 20 seconds including time to see oil pressure before releasing the decompression lever. If it was cold (below zero F) then we'd let it run for 10 or 15 minutes and the diesel would fire right up. It always worked and didn't care about cold. The biggest downside was the tractor thus had a 6V system so it was good you did field work at 3 or 4 MPH because if you were going any faster in the dark you wouldn't see the fence in time to stop! LOL!
A retired excavator lived next to me, lots of alignment been your comments and his! He also said they used to lubricate the tracks in the morning with diesel fuel, pouring it all over the tracks…..yikes! Great videos, thank you!!
It's only recently i learned why the starter and main engine's exhausts are intertwined.We live in a warm climate so it simply never occurred to me.
My Dad owned a small town power plant in the early 50's. Ran 24-7 except for oil changes. He said the engine vibration caused more damage to Pony motor than actual use. I wish I could remember what part he was referring to.
I don't know much about diesel engines or Cat bulldozers. I subscribed and love to watch you put stuff together with care and precision always double checking everything. Plus you have a cool shop and everything is nice and clean and organized.
The threaded dowel pin modification is a GREAT idea, but you know the bean counters were watching even fractions of pennies.
Your spot-on about starting engines construction n longevity .In 74 JD 2cly mechanic ( nowadays technician) said farmer's just wanted to push starter button and go not Tinker around with starter engine .Back then you just ran it n traded it in for something new, ,it's a circleback moment because now the emphasis is on restoring them back to New .
My farmer boss said to a co- worker who was gassing up a tractor ," check the oil , it won't hurt it to run without gas !"
Fun Fact those plug style pistons. Thats the same system used in morden Top Fuel (12000hp) and Top Alcohol (3500ish hp) race engines.
i have heard a lot of guys complain about starting engines and i agree with you ,, I have a 1959 john deere 730D and it has the pony start and i love it ,, minus 15 degrees ,i can go out start the pony engine , let it run and warm up for about 15 minutes ,, that's time for a cup of coffee ...go out jump up on the seat ,pull the compression release , hold the clutch ,wind up the pony and i do mean wind up too cause it'll hit 5000 rpm ,engage the starter and it'll turn maybe 8 revolutions before it clunks to life ,,that old devil will start when my newer 4960 won't even think of waking up till i plug itin for an hour,,my grandfather bought it brand new and it's still on the farm 63 years later being used to plow snow
I’ve always like the starting engine from the old caterpillar to the old two cylinder John Deere after seeing what you have done with the old starting engines makes me want to find a old D2 caterpillar to bring back to life
Starting engines are the reason a lot of these"older" Cats still exist. (my opinion) Much more service life out of the main engine, most of an engine's wear is on startup (I have heard upwards of 95%)
Yep, the worst thing you can do to an engine is start it!
Squatch, it would be great, (but yes a lot of work for YOU!) to see a complete video inventory of all your vehicles. Completed ones, ones in progress and even ones awaiting a future tear down. From what I can see, you have a lot but I think everyone would enjoy seeing ALL of your tractors and Cats.
My dad tuned up the starting engine on a D315 gen set. Both engines were in pretty good shape. Using a battery start on the starting engine we could have the main engine running in less than a minute. We always like starting engines for Cats. The way we ran them they say for months at a time. In this time batteries you loose charge. A well tuned starting engine would always start at -10 when batteries would fail.
My Dad bought a new D4 in 1953 so I grew up around the pony motor. I still have the dozer. Have started it at 20 below zero by pulling one spark plug, giving it a little squirter of gas, then pulling the starter rope. Anything that can last 69 years on a ranch is impressive.
I certainly agree with your analysis of the pony motor. I have a similar reaction every time I see someone put on a 12 volt 'conversation' on a tractor.
estou gostando muito de conhecer a D4 através de sua reconstrução . Good luck.
You are absolutely correct on the starting engines.
We had a D2 on the farm for awhile. Never knew much about the starting motors and I don’t believe we EVER shut the gas off to the starting motor. Of course we purchased the D2 from a jockey to do a job, it did the job and then eventually got sold. Never once saw and operators manual. The starting motor was not in great shape and definitely needed a rebuild. Makes sense as to why.
@@squatch253 cool to hear how you learned! Need more stories! Please!
Since the starting engines are so "simple" and parts hard to find, I've often thought about building one from scratch just to see if I can. Just one of those someday projects I hope to get to when everything else has been restored. Great video as always!
Depending on how much you want to diy it, you could easily start with a 75cc crate engine s/a harbor freight predator. The big task is adapting the assembly to drive the bigboy engine with some sort of overrun clutch/bendix. A 50cc might have the chooch for the job, but itll need a lot of reduction gears
@@Hyratel I'm thinking more along the lines of actually copying the pony. Most of the components shouldn't be too tough, but there's a few I'm not capable of making myself. The thing I don't like about using a crate motor is you can't tie the coolant system into it like with original pony. I've seen a D2 for sale with a Predator on the fender, just didn't look good in my opinion.
@@KettleMoraineMeadows i can respect that ; it was just a thought towards "where is the value of my effort going within the project"
@@Hyratel I get that too. I feel like on a project like this, the value it's solely in thr pride I get of accomplishing something that has been an idea in the back of my head for years. And making something that keeps the original look if thre tractor.
i was thinking 2 large off the shelf semi truck starter motors and an ignition switch would have worked just as well and been so much easier and cheaper, BUT after thinking about it more... these pony motors worked well for a long time and didnt need a battery to turn over and get the dozer moving even if the main big engine didnt run at all. Their magneto system and hand cranking reminds me of the Ford Model T (and they also only had splash lube and small amount of oil capacity)
In the early seventies I ran a 1967 D7E with a pony engine. Kept it so it would start easy ( tune up and maint ) When it got cold I could start that dozer when the newer ones would not start. Kinda liked the pony motor.
About not shutting down machines. I remember reading a book about the construction of some of the Australian outback roads like the gunbarrel highway. Apparently they broke the starter on one of their cats and just ran it for a week or more while parts arrived
In the late 1950's I-81 was built through northeastern PA. I lived two doors down from where they parked the cable pan scrapers and pushers at night, so we didn't need alarm clocks that summer - just after daylight every working day we were up just after daylight when they started those monsters up. Pony motors first, then the diesels. Everything was D-8's as memory serves. Anyway, the point is that yes, the pony would run for maybe five minutes, then the diesel would start, and it usually ran 10 hours a day or more. So your question about how good does it need to be is right on the mark.
I have talked to a few of the old guys in the thornbury vintage club in southland New Zealandthat I am a member of and they have said that 30 to 40 thousand hours was not uncommon between O haul of the main engine in the D2 and D4 crawlers and that was probably hard work as well
Personally, having a starting engine is what says vintage Cat to me. My great uncle ran a Cat from the 50's for the company he and his brothers owned until he retired in the 90's. Same machine forever, and it likely wasn't new when it was purchased.
Adding pressure lube would have been great, but probably would have doubled or tripled the cost. Adding a pump and oil capacity seems easy on the surface, but pressure lube would have necessitated block casting changes, way more machine work drilling oil galleries, and a solid crank would have been needed. All of this would have also increased weight greatly. Having no hands on experience with these, the only short coming I can see is they needed an updraft carburetor to minimize oil dilution when the gas isn't turned off.
The first Cat 988 loader I ran had a pony motor.
TOBY!! YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY ABOUT STARTING MOTOR'S!!! I'D RATHER HAVE A STARTING MOTOR THEN ELEC START!!
@@squatch253 I see some people know your first name. Why don't you use it in your videos?
Great video BTW.
I Have a 49 Model R John Deere with the 2 cyl starting motor. At one time cat and jd were married at the hip, thus jd having a starting pony motor. Great stuff. Always starts, warms the main engine, it takes some time to do that when it is really cold, but always starts. Thanks for the presentation.
Hey Squatch, another great vid with some really neat info.
Here’s one to consider. Imagine if you would an engine that operates at quite extreme limits. It cannot be cranked cold as the tolerances are so tight, the engine is effectively seized when below operating temperature.
This engine requires an external source to heat its coolant and lubricant. Furthermore, it requires an external device to spin the engine up for starting.
In case you have not guessed, I am referring to a Formula 1 race car.
I think it’s interesting to look at what is (arguably) the most advanced engine in the world and compare it to what is something significantly less complex: the similarity is striking IMO.
With respect to the numbers you quoted re service life, a starting engine would likely remain serviceable for around ten to twelve years: with that number in mind, it’s clear that it is perfectly adequate for purpose.
Looking forward to the third build.
Talking about close tolerances; the engines in todays cars in order to gain a fraction or two of a mile per gallon have begun to use extremely light engine oil which requires tighter tolerances to operate normally. This may affect the start up procedure especially when cold, I'm not sure, but I would definitely use a block heater even in the other three seasons! It's always caused me to wonder, but such light oil gives practically no tolerance to overheating before terminal engine damage has occurred, and I would think reliability issues would be voiced by the public!
@@garybulwinkle82 my car is a 1972 Triumph Stag. If your unfamiliar, the engine is a 3 litre V8 designed and built in house. The TV8 as it is known has a reputation for temperature related failures. They allow 24 thou lash on the rods, so the spec isn’t tremendous on them! Guess I better run it on that grease squatch puts on the crawler!
Hey squatch thanks for this video I watched it a long time ago when I first got a D2 and the first habit I adopted of yours is to shut the gas off as soon as the diesel starts... I have also used that same Russian out with some other engines that have a downdraft carburetor cuz I think they have been leaking into the crankcase
Having seen the video, I concur with your analysis. I really like the whole starting engine concept. I once had to start my old diesel Rabbit (foolishly went rock hounding to an old mine in the Colorado Rockies during the winter…) with a battery that had frozen and split. Used a 9v transistor radio battery to keep the fuel solenoid open, pointed it down the mountain, and let it roll in gear. After enough fuel (which had gelled) got pushed through the injector pump and back to the tank, it started to fire. About half a mile of black smoke and it cleared up. Drove it 200 miles + back to Denver without stopping. Great car, wish it had had a starting motor!
Great use of your resources! I wonder how many people would have thought too use that 9V to open the fuel solenoid?!
@@dans_Learning_Curve my job at the time was a small diesel mechanic, so I new the engine well. Mercedes used a vacuum solenoid, I would have had more trouble with that!
@@halsnyder296 Would have sucked. (hah!).
Great video as always . The way you explained the starting engine. I will whole hardly agree with you. I run a old D7 cat. With a staring motor. It was hard to start when it was cold. You turned it over but could not choke it til it fired them pull the choke out. Aw the gold days.
Electric start would wear out faster than petrol on long cranks. I don't know much about cat machines but have replaced more Electric starter motors in 30 years than I care to remember. Been watching this build from the start, hi from Australia 🇦🇺
Nice to see someone stating that simple is as good as it needs to be.. so much these days is made so complicated that if it stops going you need a university degree and ten years learning just to start working on it... never mind all the special computer controlled gear to even find out what is wrong.
Added to that... nice to hear someone telling people that it is best to follow procedures and use common sense when operating equipment.
Speaking to the issue of starting engines, I personally love the idea because you don't have any electronics to worry about. Sure the points can be tricky, but a little bit of matchbook paper can fix that. Also being able to roll the diesel over with no compression and bring up oil pressure and temp is far easier on it than a dry/cold start. This is why I'm seeking to aquire one of these vintage cats vs buying a newer one. Everything is mechanical and metal vs computer controlled and electrical.
Squatch; I had a D4D with direct electric start and it was 24 volt. I used it for my logging operatiion for road building and snow plowing (northern MN ) My opinion was the electric start was way less desirable than a starting engine. I usually gave the glow plugs two cycles and if it didn't start you then were stuck boosting the batteries one at a time. Electric start was the main reason I sold it. Once it was running it was a great snow plowing rig with the power shift and angle blade with tilt. Mark
Can’t wait for the long block build and install on the Diesel engine and he’ll want to see the tractor going back together! Been watching you a long time Squatch and smile every time I see a new 1113 video pop up!!!!
I was all set to find one and rebuild it…… then I heard 30-40 yrs outta production overhaul kits………well shucks . Just like anything else you operate that’s been quality engineered : YA GOTTA KNOW WHAT YOU’RE DOING TO RUN IT AND DO IT RIGHT. you keep building and I’ll keep watching 👍❤️😉
Great work. Thank you from Germany
Another thought regarding these engines and old gasoline engines in general.
So many people have trouble with their carburetors getting gummed up.
I think it’s a relatively simple step to shut off the gas and let the engine burn through what’s in the carb.
If there isn’t any fuel in the carb to make a mess, you have helped yourself avoid frustration and untimely repairs.
I do this with my Farmall “M” and so far so good.
Simple solutions can be good.
I remember my dad buying a Briggs and Stratton workshop manual, reading it and then religiously following its advice of always letting the carb run dry.
14:56 I fully agree with you that the starting engines are misunderstood and under-appreciated. The technology is antiquated by today's standards, no doubt, but people often fail to think of the circumstances that both owners/operators, and engineers, had to deal with when these machines were built 80+ years ago. As Ironman3406 mentioned, electric starting was barely in its infancy (even on gas engines) when these tractors were built, and the technology for an efficient electric starter in higher-compression diesel engines hadn't been conceived yet. We all know how much of a bear those old diesel engines are to start when they are cold; the quintessential fix for this would seem to be an all-in-one "starting motor" with the ability to pressurize the oil and heat the coolant all at once. The starting engine concept did an excellent job of that.
I feel like the starting engines were well-designed to serve a doomed life. The concept was genius (for the era) but very few operators cared enough to take the proper steps to make them last (especially since they weren't the ones paying for the equipment) - hence the failure rate and the need for frequent rebuilds on those starting. The same holds true today when it comes to consumer-grade power equipment. I think it's safe to say that walk-behind mowers and entry-level riding mowers take more abuse than any other equipment out there - most homeowners don't maintain them properly and will just run them into the ground, or throw away and buy a new one every few years. But at least the parts for most mowers are easy to find...unless we are forced to switch entirely over to electric lawn equipment, I don't think the parts supply (or dealer support) for gas-powered mowers will disappear any time soon.