Vickers "K" - For Aircraft and the SAS/Long Range Desert Group
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2021
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The Vickers "K" Class gun - also known as the Vickers Gas Operated - was the gun the Vickers company thought would replace the heavy water-cooled Vickers and allow them to remain primary machine gun supplier to the British army. The design actually came from the French designer Berthier, who has expected it to be adopted by the French Army - when it wasn't he sold his rights and patents to the Vickers company. Much to their surprise, in British light machine gun trials of the 1930s it was beaten by the Czech ZB-26! So the Vickers company pivoted, and decided to up the gun's rate of fire and offer it to the air force as an observer's gun to replace the Lewis. In this it was successful (and it would also be adopted as an infantry gun by the Indian Army).
The Vickers K is probably best known for its use by the SAS/LRDG raiders in North Africa. For them, the high rate of fire was ideal, and the guns were available from disabled aircraft (and not easily converted to an infantry configuration).
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I am a paramedic in manchester and about a year ago I went to a patient in a care home in Salford, old boy in his 90's, I noticed some of his old pictures of him in the desert sat next to these guns and asked him about them. He seemed quite happy when I immediately knew about the long range desert group and we had a good chat about it.
He's the only fella I've ever asked to shake hands with because I was genuinely honoured to meet him. Great guy.
My Grandfather was LRDG G patrol captured december 1941 he was a Coldstream Guards Trooper. He was at the first raid they did at a place called Murzuk. R.I.P Mac.
I'm patient transport here in Oz, and years ago we transported a pt to a nursing home from a hospital. When we got him to his room, I saw a couple of photos of him in military uniform on horseback. When I turned around, I saw a saddle up on top of a wardrobe.
I immediately noticed it wasn't a standard saddle, but a military saddle. Of course, due to his age, this made him one of Australia's Light Horsemen.
I was amazed, turned to him and asked him a few questions. He had some dementia, but I found out that he only 'came of age' near the end on WWI, and had finished his basic and light horse training, andxwas waiting on being rotated to Europe, but then the Great War ended.
I noticed that the saddle wasn't stored properly, was leaning on one side, and the leather was starting to dry out.
After shaking the mans hand, Ieft the room and found the nursing unit manager, told them what I saw and asked them to ask the family, or maybe their maintenance staff, to oil the mans saddle.
I remember her looking at me annoyed, and saying that they don't have time to do things like that, besides it's just a horse saddle.
I said, it's not just a horse saddle, it's an Australian Light Horse Brigade saddle, and is therefore an important piece of Australian History.
I think she just shrugged and said she'd ask the family the next time they come in.
Meaning, she had already forgotten about it. With nothing more I could do, I left.
But, it still bugs me.
@@cycoholic Some people have no sense of history. So much knowledge and so many valuable items lost.
@@lancerevell5979 It's sad. History might be the past, but it's also where we came from and what made us what we are today.
Just goes to show. Everyone has a story. That old guy must've been hard as nails in his youth.
In my dim distant youth, I knew a chap who served with the SAS under David Stirling. He also knew many of the LRDG chaps, as they tended to be in the same areas doing very similar business. He suggested that the choice of the Vickers GO was down to nothing more than availability. The SAS was an odd ball organisation, and so when they requisitioned 'stuff', they tended to get silly answers from suppliers, anyone who has worked in any military supply system will understand that. If you have 100 men, but order 110 tooth brushes, some admin wallah will spend longer querying the order than the life expectancy of the guys in the unit, so when the SAS were after machine guns, the 'organised' supply systems told them how everyone wanted machine guns and they would just have to wait, but there were spare Vickers GO guns in RAF depots, and they were 'acquired'. If you look carefully at all pictures of SAS (and LRDG) vehicles, you will see a very wide variety of guns, mounted and carried. If they had a gun that worked, and ammunition for it, it would have a custom mount welded up and be used.
He also explained how they selected targets. One of the problems was that if you asked 'Cairo' what they wanted attacked, and discussed plans, there was a strong chance that when you arrived, the enemy would be expecting you. However, if you told no one where you were going, you stood a better chance of getting in and out without as much opposition. If they were short of cheese, they attacked an Italian target, if they were short of schnapps, they attacked a German one. I seem to recall him saying that they attacked Vichy positions if they were short of wine, but it is all a long time ago.
His personal side arm was a long barreled 'artillery pattern' Luger that he took from an Italian officer. He chose not to explain the negotiation of that 'gift'. He also preferred the P14 rifle to an SMLE or a No.4. He said it was more accurate.
... Most fascinating sir 😎
hey thanks for sharing. learn something new everday
Thanks for sharing! Awesome story. I love the SAS tales! Awesome lads!
I love the true dogs of war, the experts and specialists that are ignored by top brass and do the job with whatever they can 'acquire' ten times better than if they were told what to do. More militaries should be focused around SAS or SEAL type special forces tactical experts with a free hand to execute a strategic objective rather than mass mobilisation and destruction. But thats my opinion, i'd rather an expert get it done fast and cheaper then throw a bunch of idiots who cant clean a bolt action at it.
So basically they were landlubbing "privateers". Except more organized, had a purpose and their value were recognized after the war.
Aircraft and the SAS: Hey Vickers could you make a variant for us?
Vickers: "K"
lmao
I hate this. Have my like.
You waited nearly 80 years for that and I'll wait another 80 to laugh at it.
lol
🤣🤣🤣
My Father was in the Long Range Desert Group , one time on patrol they found a British aircraft , not sure what type , in perfect condition landed on a hard patch of desert miles from anywhere , run out of gas . They searched for miles trying to find the crew but no luck . The took the Vickers K's and ammo , one mechanic cobbled up a mount and they had an air cooled ( that is important in a desert ) fast firing machine gun mounted on their trucks , not jeep initially, This system proved very successful , until they they returned to base . A RAF officer demanded they turn the guns over to him , or take them back to where they had found them . The LRDG guys turned their patrol around and headed back out into the Blue ( Desert) they drove well away from base and removed the guns and cached them in a known safe place where they kept all sorts of extra guns and supplies hidden from the authorities . They stopped off on the way out or in and re fitted or removed the guns , this happened for a while until things got smoothed over . They also got a Breda 20mm cannon mounted it on the tail wheel mechanism off a ME109 and used that was very successfully as well , also hidden from the boss
The advantages of the Vickers K were .303 ammo , air cooled no water needed, drum mags meant that there was no belt to get clogged with sand , no shiny belt to attract enemy aircraft eyes , no belt to swing all about and need a loader to keep it feeding , high rate of fire when when encountering enemy aircraft either on landing fields or in the air .
PS the LRDG was one of the first special forces in WW2 along with the SAS , Popski's Private Army , in the Western Desert
Good post Kiwi .
My dad was in 2 SAS during the war and took part in several operations, I have pictures of him and colleagues with a jeep with vickers K’s mounted - they’re in France on Operation Wallace. The K’s weren’t only used in the desert.
Thanks for your programs, very informative and very well done.
I recall some of the SAS and their jeeps get dropped in and used in sly operations in Greece to great effect. I wouldn't have been surprised to hear they were everywhere when they needed to be.
Respect to your Dad!
Respect to your father, sir. I was privileged to have known Trooper John Fielding of 1 SAS who managed to survive the massacre at Verrieres when SS troops caught up with them on Operation Bulbasket. He mentioned using the Jeeps with both Vickers Ks and .50 cal M2s mounted. Total respect to all of their bravery jumping from Stirlings into a dark night over enemy occupied countryside, not knowing what awaited. Respect to your Dad
I love those old wind vane front sights, they're just a really cool piece of old school technology and engineering.
They are brilliant and so obviously intuitive.
Very good chapter on the Vickers G.O. in "Guns of the RAF" by G. F. Wallace, who from 1935 was responsible for this weapon (and others) for the Air Ministry. The driving spring for the 100-round magazine had been made of top-quality Swedish steel, which became unobtainable after the fall of Norway in 1940, and thereafter had to be made of a lower-grade steel; hence the loading change from 100 to 96 rounds.
Similar issues with Sten magazines led to the ongoing under loading of the later L2A3 even though it had post war superior steel springs that could take full loading. Curiously the 50 round magazines of the Lanchester were still happy on 50 rounds into the 1970’s.
As I recall, we were advised not to fill Suomi drums to the brink even though they had high-grade springs. My take is that at full load, the spring would press the rounds so tightly against the helical separator guide that they wouldn't necessarily feed well for the first shots.
Not a lot of people know that....
How is swedish steel better?
These were used as beam guns on Bristol Beaufort torpedo bombers, which were flown operationally with the crew entry door and opposing emergency hatch open to facilitate shooting. Typically twin Browning belt-fed guns were fitted in the mid-upper turret of these aircraft. My Father (who was an RAF air gunner during the war) had a nasty experience with one of these in late '41 when returning from a shipping strike. What was lefty of the attacking force came under attack by FW 190s on the trip home, at which point my father found that the turret guns he was manning refused to operate. In the rather uneven exchange that followed they ended up getting badly shot-up, with the wireless operator, who had been manning the Vickers K guns, being seriously wounded and totally incapacitated. Towards the end of the engagement all but one of the 190s broke off. The remaining 190, presumably having shot off all his ammo, formed up along side the stricken Beaufort, which was by this time so riddled it was apparently making an ominous whistling sound and trailing smoke from the burning rubber life raft; presumably just waiting to see it crash into the sea. Frustrated at not being able to get his guns to operate my father climbed out of the turret and gave the guy a long burst with one of the K guns, which sufficiently dampened his enthusiasm to the point that he peeled off and left the Beaufort to it's watery fate. As things happened they managed to get back over dry land, before crashing somewhere in the Western Desert.
Nice story and nice screen name, thanks fir sharing.
(:
Just waiting for the scooby doo moment to come
"SURPRISE IT WAS A STEMPLE VICKERS ALL ALONG!"
@Lassi Kinnunen 81 and this is my stemple with schwerer gustav add-on kit and attached railway
And someone, somewhere, will be muttering: _"...and I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling McCollum!"_
LOL nice one :D
Probably worth saying that the LRDG very rarely took an active part in airfield raids etc. After some initial run ins with the Italians, before the Afrika Korp arrived, they were primarily a covert, intelligence gathering outfit lying up, sometime for weeks on end, behind German lines watching the coast road etc. They were armed with VIckers Ks and various other things but primarily for self defence if spotted. When the SAS started to operate the LRDG did act as guides for some raids, having developed the skills of desert navigation and knowing their way around the Qatara depression etc. but it was the SAS who primarily used the K in an aggressive role.
Road watch at the road from Tripoli, counting tankers and troops trucks, If you can find them, Books by Gordon lansborough, he wrote desert war books. very good ones
Imagine 4 jeeps screaming down the middle of a German runway in the dark. Three of these on each jeep blazing away at the parked airplanes. Absolute legends.
They drove pretty slowly
@@wierdalien1 Point is, if you're a German working at an airfield in North Africa, one of the last things you'd expect showing up in the night is a group of jeeps loaded up with British madmen firing these at your aircraft.
The US Ranger's used these guns when attacking Pointe Duc Hoc on D-day, they were attached to the tops of the ladders that we're used to climb the cliffs. The one gun that i have repeatedly been checking this RUclips channel over the years, for a video on. Please take it to the range for us! Do the BESA gun too sometime 👍
Waiting with bated breath for the Saturday shootie video...
I wish. This does not appear to be a shooting collection.
@@kaveman9 Indeed.
Boring!
Actually I wouldn't find that video boring most shooting videos are very boring though.
Latch it onto a hang glider and watch GJ strafe the rifle range. I'd pay to see that.
Assuming the safety can be fixed. Atm it's permanently on Safe
LRDG, we make a speciality of getting behind the enemy lines and back again without the enemy noticing.
SAS, yes, about that. You are going to need more dakka for what we had in mind!
Sum´un say Dakka?
*WAAAAAAGH!*
@@Taistelukalkkuna Orks would love the LRDG stuff - they needed serious firepower so they strapped guns together, their jeeps could had 5 LMGs firing at once. the trucks often had howitzers / AT guns bolted onto them.
@@Taistelukalkkuna it's slang for firepower
Broad Arrow denotes Government property, not a proof mark.
This is the first time I've seen anything on the Veickers K in detail. Thank you for this one Ian.
This is now the second time I see this type of front sight. There got to be one to fire on the range with a big ass fan to generate some wind.
or just have it mounted on the back of some toyota and bomb around the desert at max speed
@@wytfish4855 the talibans were doing thar as you wrote that comment😏
"That" I meant to write
If you understand how to shoot with regular sights it looks like it would be more like "The red bead is your front post now, all hail the red bead", so to speak. The point seems to be that it prevents you having to learn anything new (and then calculate it accurately on the fly).
@@laurisikio
You can click on the three vertical dots on the side of your comment to edit if you want to.
@1:12 anyone else hear the crack in Ian’s voice when he recounts that a Frenchman lost on the contract?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 🤣
For God's sake, don't mention nuclear submarines...
The picture of a gas-canister studded jeep going cross desert with one wheel touching ground and one of these guns mounted on the crash brace going full squirt-mode off to a side, gunner being steadied by the loader clamping on his feet whit his full body weight while german aircraft still grounded are exploding left and right in the background, has certainly become the iconic SAS pose, WWII era.
I like how they discarded the cal .50 in favor of the Vickers/K on count of the later originally being an aircraft gun, then switching in '43 when the .50 started appearing on P-51 in ground-support roles. Very english.
What a coincidence. Earlier today I was watching the classic WWII film "A Bridge Too Far", featuring the jeep mounted GO Vickers in Market Garden.
The Royal Navy also mounted Vickers K guns in their Swordfish, Albacore, and Barracuda torpedo bombers. When HMS Ark Royal's Swordfish attacked Bismarck, their rear gunners strafed the battleship with their Vickers Ks as they turned away after their torpedo attacks.
Thank you for your video. Love the aircraft sight, not seen that before.
My Brother and I own a rare two man Special Ops canoe. A Mk7 'Cockle' (that was a code word for them). They were sectional for ease of fitting through submarine or transport in Catalina flying boats, had outriggers, could be sailed and were paddled, 18ft long and made of alloy. It was made in early 1945 and was used by Combined Operations Pilotage Parties (COPP's) We have restored it to seaworthy condition and have taken it out from Hayling Island in England, their WW2 Training ground in WW2. When showing it a few years ago (before Covid) we were greeted by a Gentleman in his late 90's, who was delighted to see such a craft again. He trained with them in Scotland in the early 1950's. He confirmed that these canoes were fitted with a Vickers-K machine gun ! Sadly we do not have one, but thinking of making a replica to make the project complete. So, if anyone has a spare Vickers-K.......
A fine fast fireing light MG , I do think that the whole ' scrounging ' legend is overused , the RAF did not just leave these in store when replaced on aircraft but mounted all they could as AA/ ground defence for airfields , so some generouse co-operation must have occured!
Its amazing what can be scrounged, couple of blocks of nice cheese and a bottle of schnapps might liberate a couple, fella ducking off for a piss should be long enough to unhook one from its aa post, the ol distract the Q'ey with his paper work for your sock issue while the fellas walk out the back door with a box amd the ol' 'fuck knows boss, they were here when we gott 'em?'
If your not shopping green your paying to much
Ian doesn't mention, but K stands for "kurz", which is German for "short", and was used because the gun was actually longer than a standard Webley revolver. Subterfuge and miss-direction, a fine British tradition.
/jk
My grand uncle Cyril was a Kiwi trooper who served in R Patrol of the LRDG. I bet he had some fun with these things.
Completely random, but last night I re-watched the vid Ian did on the Kolibri years ago, joking how he needed it as a concealed carry gun. Who wants him to do a BUG match with a Kolibri?
That would be cool, though where would he get the gun, much less the ammo?
@@gingergorilla695 details my friend, first we get him to commit, then we fund with patreon, then find someone willing to loan him the gun, like many of his shooting/range videos.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine that would probably be the showstopper, no doubt.
Hard to win a BUG match when your rounds bounce off the reactive targets w/o effect... 😆
@@Bruciando he did one with 22 mag and only dropped one steel down the whole competition, but he still got points for the hits. If he had the ability to I'm pretty sure he'd do a BUG match with the kolibri lol
I gotta say the rear grip of the Vickers K makes me think that this is the ancestor of the ChainSAW MG that KAC made as a mockup a while back.
The drum magazine with the strap reminds me of the Velcro mitts you’d play catch with tennis balls lmao
The Long Range Desert Group "acquired" their Vickers K's from Hawker Audax (the Hawker "Awful" to those that had to fly it) Biplanes the way I heard it mentioned. Also, the Kiwi's involved liked welding up twin "K'' mounts on Bedford Trucks & (and Willy's Jeep's of course) retro fitted with Chevy V8s. They destroyed A LOT of Junkers 52's, Messerschmitt BF109F's and Stuka's in Africa. Thanks Ian!
No Chinese Warlords were involved. : )
The Audax was indeed a biplane - army liaison version of the Hawker Hart light bomber.
My late grandfather was attached to the LDG during the war he had great stories of the LDG antics and tactics such as firing on latrine tents when the german all trooped in to relieve themselves.
Finally! I was wondering: "When Vickers K will show up?" And here is it, thank you!
for almost 15 to 20 years you can find great documents about K guns
(and all the other stuff : truck, outfit, tactics, sand ...) at U.K. & FR websites describing LRDG & SAS units in w²II desert war ; and then SAS in ETO.
During a raid on a German airfield. A decent amount of their planted Lewes bombs failed to properly go off. So David Sterling (The founder of the SAS) ordered them to all hope in their Jeep’s and use their vickers to shoot up the plains and ignite the bombs.
@@Bender_B._Rodriguez Ben Macintyre's book "Rouge Heroes" is a great way to learn about their WW2 history.
@@johndell3642 Thanks! I forgot that detail.
Edit: My mistake - there was a transitionary period between the two doctrines I talk about below, and the Bagush airfield attack, exactly as Max describes, was the inspiration to change between them. Incidently, Bagush airfield was already an important place in SAS history, being the airfield they launched from to mount their first operation.
In the early SAS missions, they would sneak into the airfields, Lewes bomb anything they could, and try to be on their way out before anything went up. They'd rendez-vous with the LRDG jeeps to get as far away as possible before the enemy were in the air hunting them down. I know it didn't always go so smoothly - I certainly recall there being some instances of being spotted and fighting whilst still in the airfields.
Once the SAS started getting their own jeeps though, those jeeps became the primary weapons. They'd drive onto the airfields in formation, and drive a large ring in two columns, dropping continuous fire on any plane they could. I'd have to double check sources, but I think they may well have also had a few men go to harder to reach planes with Lewes bombs too, but at this point that would be a backup. I don't believe there was any instance in which they used the jeeps as a backup for the bombs not going off.
At the same time, I've not been at those books in a while. If there is a specific instance in which this was the case, please drop some more details down below.
@@ProjectSeventy You are correct about most of what you have said. But I just double checked the event I mentioned. They had planted bombs on 30 Axis aircraft at the Bagush airfield. Due to damp fuses only half of them went off. So Stirling's party did drive onto the filed in formation to disable the other airplanes with machine-gun fire. It was after this where they altered their doctrine as you mentioned.
@@denisonsmock5456 Thank you, you're absolutely correct!
It seems I need to reread some books to refresh my memory.
Big childhood grin at mention of the 'Desert Rats' -- The show by that name was part of my memory of what I grew up watching, along with 12 O'Clock High, and others. :-)
Did you mean "Rat Patrol?" Because I remember that one and "12:00 High" as well as "Combat" and "the Gallant Men." I loved "Rat Patrol" with them jumping sand dunes, spraying down German columns... ;-)
"The Desert Rats" actually refers to the British 7th Armoured Division, not to the LRDG or the SAS.
At last Forgotten Weapons does the Vickers K. Been waiting for this for yonks. A very widely used weapon in WWII.
I'd heard the only surviving fairly complete original example of the No.2 gun is in the Liberation museum at Zeeland in the Netherlands. No1 guns were also used by the Army to some extent later in the war for Recce. vehicles and tanks on the roof mounted PLM mount, there's some nice photos around of Daimler Dingos of 43rd Div. Recce with twin K guns replacing the single Bren during the n.w. European campaign. The Vickers machine gun collection and research Association has more information on the wider British use of the Vickers GO on their website and RUclips channel, along with videos of the VB, that show the very obvious similarities in the design, worth checking out if you're that enhanced level of gun geek.
Thank you for this Ian. I look forward to a No2 Mk1. BTW I understand that the 2 gun SAS mounting doctrine was to fire each gun singly with the second gun ready for immediate fire when the first was empty to save drum changing. Normally to swamp an encounter with enemy forces and give time to get away rather than have a stand up fire fight which was not their mission.
My old Dad served as a radio specialist with the Long Range Desert Group in North Africa and told me of the many times he was glad to rely on a Vickers K gun.
Thank you very much Ian. I had seen the famous photo of Major Stirling with members of the SAS / LRDG in jeeps. I always wondered why those Lewis guns were so rare in vehicles.
Every time I see your informative broadcasts a smile appears at my face. Full of information beside the guns. History at plain sight coupled with technology, why can’t learning something new be every time such a pleasure.
I've been puzzled by this gun for a long time. Thanks for the video!
That front sight is SO cool! I don't understand exactly how it works but I can appreciate the sheer genius of the thing.
When you don't have computers, you build mechanical, analog versions. Few moving parts, and it is powered by the winds it's compensating for.
The scoops on the side use wind (or more correctly the air the plane moves through) to move the front sight side to side and gravity moves it up or down. Put those two together and you have a self orienting sight that compensates for the movement of the aircraft the gun is mounted on.
@@MythicMagus simple mechanics, but it takes some precision to get things right.
@@Stevarooni that last sentence. That's the real beauty of the thing. IMHO, computers are overrated. I think those might actually be counterproductive in the long run. Think wall-E
@@MythicMagus you explain it well. But wouldn't it be totally amazing to actually see it in action?
Finally some content on the K. Always mentioned in SAS books but never seen any detail on it. Thanks Ian!
My late father ( born 1927) used to work for a former New Zealand LRDG member, Peter Burke, in a fish and chip shop in Gore, NZ. Dad told me when they went to the local Returned Servicemen's Association in Gore , Peter Burke was treated like royalty.
I love how the SOV concept with a main gun and passenger/commander gun as well hasn't changed in all that time.
Gem of a video. Never knew about these. Thanks Ian.
Been waiting for this one. Thanks for posting.
If you read just one book on the LRDG, read W.B. Kennedy Shaw’s “The Long Range Desert Group” written in 1945.
At 3 million subs Ian should run a 2 gun match with a Kolibri
Soooooooo, you want to see Ian McCollum take LAST Place?!? 🤔
Sights on stilts must have been all the rage in the summer of '39 :)
The bulk did matter in some aircraft: the Hampden bomber had to be modified to allow both the mid upper and mid lower gunners to fire to the beam. (The Hampden's structure simply didn't allow a gunner any further back than the middle.) The pilot had a fixed gun, and the bomb-aimer had a flex gun, which again could not fire to the beam. The Germans learned that they could attack Hampdens by flying alongside in an Me110 and, ignoring the Me110's various forward-firing cannon and machine-guns, use the observer's own flex-gun to shoot the Hampden pilot in the face from close range. The RAF's immediate reaction was a mod to allow the mid upper and lower gunners to shoot to the beam, the longer-term solution was night bombing. Wellington and Whitley bombers were better than the Hampden in this respect, but not so much that they could penetrate deep into enemy territory by day.
The _real_ solution was to build a bomber which could easily take the Hampden's maximum bomb load whilst being so fast and agile that it did not need defensive guns of any sort or calibre: that was the Mosquito, which could visit Berlin by day with a 4,000lb cookie.
If memory serves, the core problem with the Hampden was the very narrow fuselage, which made it impossible to fit a proper mid-upper turret. So they were stuck with flexible mounted guns with limited fields of fire.
Interesting how the germans figured out how to do that
@@davidgillon2762 The Hampden _was_ an improvement on the Heyford! It's important not to let hindsight lead you to expect it to be an improvement on anything later. Guy Gibson was grateful to be fighting in the Hampden and not the Heyford! There was no arrangement of defensive guns which reduced the casualty rate amongst bombers as much as the gunless Mosquito bomber. Reginald Mitchel realised this and designed a four-engined bomber with only a mid-upper turret, but capable of 370mph! This bit the dust because the air ministry wasn't keen and the Southampton factory (inevitably, given its location) got bombed and Mitchel was no longer there to revive the project.
Contrast this with the Fairy Battle. I have never seen a Fairy Battle flying, of course, but I see the local Hawker Hind flying every summer (I'm in East Beds) and it doesn't look like a sitting duck. They replaced the Hind with the Battle! Given that the Battle had a Merlin engine, I've often wondered what might have been had they made an extra thousand Hurricanes with bombs on instead of a thousand odd Battles.
@@demonprinces17 If they hadn't seen the Hampden in action by daylight, they might never have realised.
@@matthewspencer5086 But what if they had powered the Battle with the Bristol Hercules instead? 300 extra horsepower (1375 vs 1030) surely would've given the Battle the ability to carry a Boulton-Paul 4-gun turret and possibly a couple of fixed 20mm Hispanos without any loss in performance compared to what was available in reality.
My father was an armourer in the RAF during the war and he said that the Vickers GO was his favourite gun to work on and service.
The Vickers K/GO was also used by the Royal Navy, particularly by motor torpedo boats and motor gunboats, otherwise known as Coastal Forces.
Was just about to mention that but thought I’d better check other
posts first. The Lewis a s Savage guns they replaced were given to the Coal Scuttle brigade.
The RAF Maritime Branch Air Sea Rescue launches also used them, as can be seen in use in the movie "The Sea Shall Not Have Them"
@@geordiedog1749 I didn't know about the hand-off of the Lewis; interesting.
In photos up to about 1942, most light AA on MLs, MASBs and MGBs are clearly twinned Lewis mounts, so these were obviously available as the G/O came into RAF service. Later on, the G/O appears in their place on MTBs and MGBs (I'm sure the MLs were stuck with Lewis guns for a while longer); obviously as the RAF were getting rid of them in their turn.
Poor old light Coastal Forces had to make to with whatever wasn't wanted elsewhere for a while - like all those Holman Projectors on everything and those awful 2-pdr Rolls guns, which apparently broke down a lot (got used on MLs for a while, but the MGBs got rid of theirs as soon as they had an Oerlikon). Would like to see a video about those two obscure bits of kit, actually.
@@AndrewGivens I read somewhere that the ‘Projector’ did, in fact, shoot down an e/a! Just one though. Mainly it had its users running for cover.
It seemed that the Crabs got first dibs on the best kit - especially the Bomber force. They replaced their Lewis guns with Vickers Ks then replaced them with .303 Brownings so they could bomb fields in the Ruhr Valley miles from anywhere and then get shot down on the way back without firing a single round. Meanwhile coastal forces and Harry Tates Navy were making do with Savage guns and five inch LA pieces marked 1892. They also got Madsden Guns? Potato Diggers they called them as they had a swinging cam along the barrel. WWI kit basically. Never a “Phoney War” for these guys. Mines and bombs and S Boats from day one. A school friend of mine had an uncle (one of the Tyne river pilots) who was on a collier in 1939 aged 17. He told us (impressionable young kids) that he was saved several times by a lad from Morpeth (who was a known poacher) on a Savage gun (first time I heard that name variant of the Lewis gun). He drove off a few Do17s with his very accurate shooting, apparently.
@@robshirewood5060 Didn’t they also get the turrets off Blackburn Rocs? Or was it from BP Defiants?
Man Ian you have the absolute coolest job I can think of.
I’ve always loved the ‘K’, partly because of the SAS connection but also because romanticism of the interwar aircraft they were used on (Beaufort/ Blenheim/ Hampton/ Battle/ Swordfish etc)
Hampden perhaps?
@@bigsmoke6189 thank you! Yes, Hampden 😂
Very good video, as always Ian. The business with the 100 round drum is described in (I think) "Guns of the RAF". Apparently the original spring as designed by Vickers was made from very low phosphorous Swedish steel and could cope regularly with the full magazine capacity. They realised that they would be unable to source this steel once the shooting started, they went over to using English steel which had a higher residual phosphorous content. English iron ores were not the best, adequate once the Bessemer process came into use but never the best. They were bringing in steel/iron ore from abroad in the convoys but somehow that was not part of the mix for this problem. Anyway this lower grade spring steel would lose its puff after a while if the magazines were loaded up to the limit, but if you left out a few rounds you's get away with it. Seems like a very small difference, 95, 96 or 97 rounds instead of 100, there may be something else involved, like excessive spring tension causing misfeeds. Back to the experts...
Thanks Ian ... always appreciate your videos
A lot of interesting detail I was unaware of. Hadn't realised quite how many were made and had never heard of a No.2 variant. The front sight is fascinating.
I read stirlings book they had to go hunting around for weapons and these were found in the corner of an armoury and were put into use due to lack of other supplies..
Indeed, when the SAS was formed, David Sterling gave the volunteers a map reference at which to meet, but when they arrived all they found was a sign to tell them they were at the right place. It was Sterling's way of telling them that they'd have to go beg, borrow, or (more likely) steal everything they needed. 😁
@@Kevin-mx1vi "acquiring" kit has been a skill of infantry since probably the Egyptian pharaohs. Maybe older.
@@ScottKenny1978 Indeed, it's a vital military skill, covered by the term "using your initiative". 😉
@@Kevin-mx1vi had to teach a couple of junior officers that if we said we had "acquired" something, it meant that there was someone who might miss it later. Things quickly boiled down to "we 'acquired' it, sir!" being retorted with "how long before someone misses it?"
The ideal answer to that was "not before we are underway" (as I was a Sailor). 😇
Only Ian could find the ONLY one of it's type in the entire US.
The ‘Desert Rats’ were the 7th Armoured Division, I’m not sure they had much to do with special forces like the Long Range Desert Group.
I’m also very confused about the LRDG vs. The SAS, some claim they’re related, others deny any link.
The LRDG did work with the SAS early on in as much they helped them across the desert.
I believe that the sas used techniques developed by the lrdg but were otherwise separate
@@clivemortimore8203
Ok, that makes sense. The LRDG probably had better maps and navigation skills (in the desert anyway).
LRDG was in the desert before the SAS, The SAS used them to get to targets and then back some of the LRDG transferred to the SAS who then used LRDG navigation equipment and techniques
iirc they are related in the sense that early on in SAS’s time North Africa the LRDG were used to get the SAS to and from their targets (before the SAS were able to do it themselves) though the LRDG also did reconnaissance patrols behind enemy lines as their main mission
Thanks....I always enjoy your work.
Well now i see about 8things i have to go back and change on a 3D model.
This is a hell of a good reference, man, and a great vid as always
Vickers K vs. Bren: "Always a bride's maid, never a bride"
I read a memoir once by a Corp of Royal Engineers officer. He said that a big problem was the various covert, scouting units like the LRDG and PPA used to combine I-am-a-sneaky-barstard practice, and their resupply issues, by stealing from the vehicle pool.
He also said the worst thieves in Egypt had Australian accents.
And Kiwi soldier eats roots shoots and leaves......
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq Insectivores, actually, by the Grace of God*
*Tane Mahuta, specifically. :P
@@uncletiggermclaren7592
roots, shoots...and leaves.
Interesting, I have seen these old wartime footage and thought that they were some kind of Lewis gun but now I know what they actually are. Thank you for sharing.
That front sight must have worked or it would have been modified/replaced in the years between WW I and WW II but I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when its developers first unveiled it to the RAF. Imagine the questions it must have elicited.
Great video. Learnt so much. Thanks for posting.❤
The New Zealand, Long Range Desert Group, a follow-on from the Polish lead, Popples Army, had to save the SAS that was then such a mess they were almost all killed. Saved by those men in the photo with the K Guns, but who previously drove Chevrolet 1 1/2 trucks. Properganda ignored the hero's and paraded the zeros.
Did you mean Popski's Private Army, officially known as Demolition Squadron No. 1 ?
In retrospect, it is odd that the British did not enlarge this belt fed for their 0.50 Vickers to be used and went directly to cannon with plethora of problems. The consequence being that bombers were left with increasingly ineffective 0.303 guns and fighters were struggling to bring down German bombers. As soon as Russians got Hurricanes, they started to alter the armament with their ShVAK cannons and Berezin heavy machine guns, stating that 0.303 were paint scratchers.
This is ot, but next time if visiting in Finland, please do a video for Pelo sub-machine gun if possible. It is a gun designed by captain Kari Pelo and only few prototypes were made after the war. It has interesting features in it such as an opening magazine, the idea being the gun to be loaded with ready made paper packages of cartridges.
The RAF had already realised that .303 was going to be ineffective at the outbreak of the war, and were looking at making 4x 20mm as the natural evolution in fighter armament, having a round that goes boom is really bloody useful. The Vickers .50 was nowhere near as effective as .50BMG, it had a much shorter cartridge (81mm compared to 91mm) and less oompf. The early feed issues associated with cannon were fairly quickly resolved. The combination of 4x 20mm was much more effective than the combination of 6 x .50 Brownings.
@@campbelldeeming9509 I have read descriptions of battles where British Vickers IV light tanks armed with 0.50 Vickers peppered the Italian L 3/35 light tanks. Their armour was from 8 to 14 millimetres so the gun wasn't exactly a pop gun either.
Fascinating content Ian, thanks very much 🇬🇧
That front sight is wicked. I had no idea they were a thing
That action still looks buttery smooth...
Over your shoulder; "Out of Nowhere". A great book. Erm, great vid too.
The front sight assembly is really cool. Neat guns.
Thank you for this, I have always loved the LRDG, my fathers uncle was part of the LRDG, we have his hat badge and photo of him with the hat in uniform, he received the "military medal" and was written up in orders, topper Brown, I have most of the books on the LRDG and he is mentioned in them, unfortunately I never go to chance to meet him, as he died shortly after the war back on his farm here in New Zealand
Those front wind vane sights are so cool
The Vickers factory in Crayford was demolished back in 1998 and a retail park is there now. I used to work just down the road. Really odd to think that I've stood in the location where guns like this (and potentially this gun) were actually made without realising.
I severed in 22 🇬🇧SAS
Great reviews always enjoy watching & learning history cheers from the UK 🇬🇧👍🏻
I bet you severed lots of things in ‘THE’ Regiment
Been waiting for this vid for like 10 years 😭😭😍
Thanks Ian.
Great video!
That front sight is amazing!
The front sight is ingenius! 😎
Nice ! A real classic!
I briefly worked at Vickers Crayford as a storeman in the late 60's and they had spares for all sorts of obsolete armaments from the water-cooled WW1 m/c gun to a naval gun turret mount. I wonder what happened to them....
Great video
I remember having a GI Joe desert rats jeep with these Vickers K on it when I was a kid. It was so cool but I wondered what these odd MGs were.
Thank you for your video. ❤️
US Rangers also had them on D-Day (Normandy) at Pointe du Hoc!
IIRC double or triple mounted, on borrowed London Fire Brigade extension ladders stuck in the backs of DUKWs to provide suppressive fire.
If anyone has never heard of Paddy Mayne you should really look him up - ultimate WW2 badass soldier
Up against Mad Jack and the guy who lost a hand, a leg, AND an eye? No way. Paddy was a brawler who found a home in SAS. The other guys were professional Officers. Not to denigrate Mr. Maynes' achievements, especially post war.
Dang. Larry vickers is clearly a genius
Op MARKET? Hmm. It was the Vickers K that was supposed to make up for 1st Airborne being dropped EIGHT miles from the new Arnhem Road bridge. Maj. Gough's Vickers K recon jeeps were gonna bust through in a heartbeat. I'm not sure many people believed that, even at the time. It was the RAF who decided the eight miles. That was the problem of MARKET and GARDEN, nobody was in charge. The USAAF were part of US commanded 1at Allied Airborne Army, the RAF were not. 1st AAA reported directly to SHAEF not Montgomery's 21st Army Group. 101 US Abn came under British 2nd Army command immediately on landing, 82nd US Abn came under Horrocks (---> Dempsey) when British 30 Corps reached them at Nijmegen and British 1st Abn Div were under Browning's 1st Abn Corps until.. well, you tell me. Browning and Ridgeway hated each other. Everyone hated Brereton. Everybody hated Montgomery. US/UK relations had all but collapsed. What a shit show. M-G could have been a staggering success. Talk about self-sabotage.
Been waiting for a k-gun review for a long time. Thanks Ian. (Can you do a British tank BESA machine gun as well please!)
I love that a previous owner of the gun apparently named it ‘Adolf’ 😂
The appeal of the high rate of fire by some users seems analogous to the MG 42 high rate of fire.
The Long Range Desert Group were part homing Pidgeon part Mechanical Genius, Hand to Hand Combat Experts, All could shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 650 yards ,that minimum pass Rate .Im Not surprised them and SAS joined forces..The SAS never got Lost again.
Great vid. Would like to see the K at the range.
A lot mounted on the Jeep’s were Twin Vickers K
That wind vane front sight is ingenious.
I wonder if the Berthier referenced here had any relation to Napoleon’s marshal Louis Alexandre Berthier. Hmm…