Composite deck build using full composite substructure - Hyperion Frontier from EnviroBuild
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- Опубликовано: 30 ноя 2020
- In response to the most common questions I get asked:
• Composite deck install...
Here’s a deck I built earlier in the year using Hyperion Frontier Slate decking from Envirobuild.
First deck I’ve done in composite and it was an interesting build.
Very happy with the overall effect and finish, presented some challenges but it turned out well.
Answers to the questions I get asked most often (cost, wear etc) www.oldmanwith.com/post/the-c...
More info on oldmanwith.com/diy-projects
Any question please ask below or anonymously on the oldmanwith.com blog
Thanks
Paul 
Хобби
Had exactly the same problem and l was a bit shocked when sun came up.😃 Great job 👍🏻
This video deserves at least 1 million views...!
Well thank you F K, I’m honestly shocked at the number of views it (and my other videos) already have! I appreciate your enthusiasm
Thanks for info on the beams not straight i might go for timber. Looks good
Fully with you on that
Good Video :)
Do you think building the base with the composite beams in a traditional way stop the warping?
Adding noggings and a frame around the edge?
Thanks for the comment Steve, it would be a tempting experiment to try but it does go against all the install instructions. Certainly in terms of the deck boards themselves they expand and contract way more than timber, you can see the difference in the gaps at the end joints on a hot day. Since it’s been down I can’t say anything odd has happened, nothing’s come apart, nothing’s moved out of place so I guess it works as a system, it was just odd when I was trying to build with it. If I built it again with the composite beams I’d build it the exact same way because I’m used to it now and the expansion would worry me but as I think I said in the video, I’d be more likely to put a traditional wooden base down which is what a lot of other guys on here seem to do.
Crazy concept... But good look.
Very nice video. And result. Good info not to use composite beams. Out of interest, what would a job like that cost?
Hi, sorry for the delayed response. I just added a blog post on my website to try and explain www.oldmanwith.com/post/how-much-did-my-composite-decking-project-cost
Looks lovely, the old wooden one looks lovely too, especially after 20 years! So the warping wasn't a problem after completion ? I'm planning my first shed base and was shocked at the price of 2x4 timber these days, the composite joists are only £9 for 10ft lengths compared to £55 for the same in treated timber.
Hi Gary, yeah I put a lot more work into the original deck in fairness. No the warping on the composite doesn’t cause any drama but it definitely moves. Bear in mind that the install in the way I did it is pretty much free floating, If it was all screwed hard together I think it would behave very differently. Couple of things I’d want to consider if I were doing a shed base with it: 1 - it doesn’t have the supportive strength of timber so where with timber I might support each end and one in the middle I’d have to put more supports under the composite. 2 - with the movement I guess if you have the shed floor screwed down to it then it may not go anywhere but you might get a lot of creaking and clicking as it expands and contracts. All guesswork on my part I’m afraid because this deck is the only time I’ve used it. When I bought the Envirobuild Manticore joists by the way (lumber as they call it) it was more expensive than timber. I just checked todays price and it seems a fair bit more than you’ve been quoted. Price per meter today is £12.53 inc vat. Good luck!
@@oldmanwith Cheers pal, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Great video. I've just ordered some composite decking from Envirobuild and will be installing it on a timber frame. Any hints/tips when laying the decking at all? I'm a little unsure on how much of a gap to leave between boards.
In the meantime I'm off to read your blog! Cheers.
Hi David, if you ordered the clips that go with it they’ll set the board gap. If you’re talking about gaps at board ends I still used the clips but just slotted them in the top and didn’t screw them down. From memory I’m pretty sure they supply a couple of spacer blocks that have variable gap sizes as well. I think without checking mine are 5mm
@@oldmanwith that's brilliant. Thank you for your reply.
No problem, now you’ve prompted me I’ll add a couple more notes to the blog post in the morning. Thanks!
great work friend forever ☕🔔✓
Thanks!
Be very carefull if you are considering to lay composite decking on a wooden joint base , the expansion between composite decking and wood expands at different rates and temperatures , there is a higher potential for the decking to warp after a few seasons. Regarding the comments on the DPC potentially being compromised , one consideration would be the application of Properla paint to the brick facia , this would allow breathability through the bricks and prevent moisture pentetrating above the DPC below the decking step , Overall a well executed decking project
Thank you. If you don’t mind I’ll add part of your comment to my blog that’s linked to the video. I would think that if the deck boards are secured using the proprietary clips (that allow for expansion) the opportunity for warping would be minimised. I can fully see if the boards were screwed down there would be potential for major problems. But I’d stress that these thoughts are based on expectation rather than experience so I’m quite happy to be corrected.
Hi do you find the decking to ne slippery at all when Wet? My builder has said this is the case but love the look of decking.
Hi, I'll say it's been no worse than the wooden decking we had before it. My install could do with a bit more fall for drainage so I get a certain amount of water settled on it and I can't say it's caused any drama BUT we don't tend to be crossing it in bad weather. In frost or ice yes it's slippery but again so was the wooden deck before it and so is our other wooden deck. Ours is not on a through route so the only time we use it is when we use it as a deck. Somebody else commented about how hot the composite gets in the sun and I would agree with that, if it's been in strong hot sun then touching it with bare skin is a no no. I think the commenter said it's not good for pets either and I would guess that's very true. We use it in summer but always in some form of footwear.
@oldmanwith thanks for the information. I will keep this in mind once I get to build our patio thank you.
Hi. What spacing did you use between the pedestals and what distance was it between the joists? I'm looking into doing something similar but I'm reading it should be 300mm between pedestals and 400mm between joists. It looks like you have larger spacing. Is it sturdy enough? Thanks
Hi, I honestly don’t recall the exact spacings for either but what I do remember was they were the recommended dimensions on the Envirobuild instructions (Envirobuild being the vendors I purchased the materials from). If you take s look in the video description there should be a link to a blog article I wrote which has more detail and a link to the instruction book.
Is it sturdy enough? I’d say yes but we don’t use it constantly and there’s only the two of us, it’s not like we have a big family partying on it so I’m not sure I can comment with accuracy. The wooden deck that was there before was much bigger and I built it on a timber base of 8 x 2’s and that only had supports about every 1000mm and it was solid as a rock when we did have family at home.
Is there not a risk that it will be uprooted in a storm if the base isn't concreted in?
Interesting thought Oliver and not something I'd considered. Previous deck was wood and stood there without being anchored down and without moving for 20 years. I'd say all in this is probably heavier, the joists (or lumber) are very dense and there's a lot of them. If you're considering it though it might be worth asking Envirobuild, there's a link to their site in the description.
What did you do on the outer edge to attach the fascia? I want to do the same but worried the plastic deck risers will obstruct attaching the fascia wood to the joist?
Hi, that’s exactly the problem I came up against along what I’ll call the front edge of the deck. I ended up redesigning the deck to move the front joist back by about 60mm (from memory). I then added spacers to support the bullnose edging and the fascia. If you look at the last two drawings in my blog post here www.oldmanwith.com/post/the-composite-decking-project you can see what I did. Hope that makes sense, if not, let me know and I’ll add a better explanation to the blog.
@@oldmanwith I can see this now. So you've essentially cut little noggins on the end and attached the fascia to this? How did you attach them? What lengths did you do?
@luketorkingtondrums Apologies for the delay in responding, I’ve just put up a video including that detail ruclips.net/video/okDnq6WRMeM/видео.htmlsi=bRSdm5D2dF2MQ36j
Hi Paul I’m thinking of using composite deck ( ultra deck) just wondered how is yours holding up regarding wear as in scratches and staining cheers peter
Hi Peter, good question, I’ll put a blog post up tonight and edit this reply to include a link when I’ve posted it.
I've now put some notes on my blog post about the decking which I'll update as more questions are asked www.oldmanwith.com/post/the-composite-decking-project
@oldmanwith enjoyed reading your blog to answer the question about the DPC ,he should of said surfaces are ment to be 150mm below DPC because of splash effect from rain ,hoping to start my decking next month, was going to use the plastic sub frame, I've noticed a lot of companies say not to nogg them but as I am a 30+ years in the building trade this seems to go against the grain ,so I might use a treated timber sub frame and use the damp proof tape on the top of the timber ???????😊
@crazycressy7986 Apologies, I replied on the day you posted but it looks like I didn’t press send 🙄 Yeah to be fair I was in the trade way back in the day and I knew about the 150 but I also knew the previous deck was installed exactly the same for over 20 years without an issue so I chanced it 😇 The wooden base thing has people getting quite emotive, mine’s now been down 3 years and not given a problem with the composite substructure but I’d still do it in wood if I did it again. The key point about the composite is that yes it all expands like nothing I’ve ever seen so it has to have room to move. This isn’t advice (#disclaimer 😂😂) but I’d do wood sub and put the composite boards on top using the composite “T” fasteners, I wouldn’t screw it down like a wooden deck. That would allow the deck boards to move about. My thinking on it is that my current setup has subframe running (and expanding) in one direction and the deck boards running (and expanding) at 90 degrees to it and it doesn’t give any issues BUT it does move. So, I personally see no issue with wood sub, with or without noggins and composite over the top. Only my opinion and I’ve not built one that way so no evidence to back up what I say. Last point which just occurred to me, the composite boards need a lot more support than wooden so you’ll need more timber than maybe with a full wooden deck.
@crazzycressy7986 I just thought of something else - question for you: Why put DPC over the sub if you’re putting composite boards over the top? I’m not sure I see the advantage? If it was wood boards yes maybe although I’ve built 5 or 6 wooden decks over the years, never added DPC between boards and joists and never had a problem. The previous deck to my composite one lasted over 20 years without it. I did put DPC between the underside of the joist supports and the ground pads though. I’m just curious if I missed something in true reasoning.
Has the warping been an issue since completing the build?
Hi, no I’d say not at all.
Certainly the boards expand and contract and you can see the end gaps change. But the warping that was evident in the base beams doesn’t seem to affect anything.
How do you fix the mitred picture frame down please ?
Sorry for the slow reply Jody, I’m trying to put an update on my blog post to show how they’re fixed. I’ll add a link here when I’ve done it.
@@oldmanwith thank you
Finally got there Jody, explanation in the updated blog post here www.oldmanwith.com/post/the-composite-decking-project
Those pavers need a good clean
Project for a few weeks time, joints need remaking and a couple of them need re-laying as well. Just one item on a significant list.
Looks great but the decking bridges the DPC and will unfortunately cause damp internally through brickwork - mortar joints will deteriorate and as a surveyor I would request the deck be cut back from the property to stop this problem. Potentially this could affect mortgage ability in the future..,nice job but incorrect in the installation and not best building practice.
It’s an interesting point you raise Stephen. To talk specifics about this deck, it’s not touching the wall at DPC height. It’s slightly below and away from the wall. It’s not on a ledger plate, its on joist hangers and the joist ends stand off the wall. The previous deck was built in a very similar way but in timber at exactly the same height and in 22 years there has been no deterioration of the mortar joints nor evidence of damp penetration. However, I’m not about to argue the possibilities because you’re a surveyor and I’m not. In this. Instance it’s my house, my risk and i accept that if it causes a problem it’s my responsibility to remedy it. The one thing I would note though is that every “advice” site I’ve looked at shows a deck running in pretty much the same way, in many instances higher than mine in order to not have a “step down” from inside to outside. I can’t find any best practice or regulations links to share with people except for the TDCA who want £36 for a manual. If you have any useful links or information that can be shared publicly it would be really helpful. Thanks for your comment.
Can something that doesn't track water really "bridge" the DPC - bridging implies that water is able to travel upwards from the ground, via capillary action, therefore allowing it to bypass the DPC.
Given the fact modern DPC's are made of plastic, I'd have zero concerns here even if it were affixed to the wall. Water won't travel up or through plastic, and so it will stay in its rightful place below the DPC!
The only risk is splashing, rather than bridging - but even new build homes are having to provide step free access now, with patios and concrete upto and above DPC. Personally, given that it's mostly door, I'd not be losing much sleep over it.
Finally, regarding mortgages - I purchased my house before I got into householder DIY and building (I've DIY built my own brick extension since, so I feel reasonably qualified to have an opinion now!) and paid for an expensive survey. Neither they, nor the mortgage surveyor, picked up and noticed the huge concrete slabs bridging 9 meters of DPC! Again, of all things, I wouldn't be remotely concerned
Hi and thanks for your comment, I felt the same about it for exactly the same reasons so it’s a shame the original commenter didn’t respond to the questions I asked.
Apologies only just seen this again..,splash back from decking will bridge the DPC and cause damp. The deck needs to be set back and away from the wall elevation. Efflorescence is a typical indication of excessive wetting - during winter months mortar joints will freeze and blow out from the brick joints.
Burns pets , children in summer.....hot plastic is not nice , worst thing I ever bought........like glass in winter 🇬🇧
Have you used the exact same stuff Paul? I can’t say it caused us any trouble in winter but it’s not really a heavy traffic area. We had timber decking previously and I’d say that was definitely risky when it was iced up. Not much experience of it in the summer yet but I’ll add something to the blog post if i notice it. Thanks for the feedback.
@@oldmanwith How are you getting on with it during the heat? I had one of the worst falls of my adult life on wet wooden decking (Put it this way - my brother was there, and he checked I was okay instead of laughing!) so I've never been convinced about this idea that plastic is bad in winter
Hi, well I stepped on it the other day in bare feet and I have to agree with Paul Topp above in the respect that it gets properly hot. The sun is off it right now (since maybe 2 hours) and it’s now plenty cool enough. By comparison, the timber deck at the other end of the garden is still in full sun and is comfortable to walk on so if there’s going to be skin touching it in the heat then timber wins I guess. In terms of Paul’s other points, the timber deck we had in position prior to the composite one was just as slippery in the winter especially when it had frozen. We don’t have pets or kids running about and for our purposes, a year on, it still looks as new so we’re happy with it.