I think that the pelvis position -- nutation or counter-nutation -- might have something to do with it, as it influences how well the SI joint stabilize the force (there are study on "form and force closure of the SI joint"). Considering the whole structure (I hope I don't misquote…) the Postural Restoration Institute guys say that upper/deeper-squat need external rotation (implying counter-nutation), while mid-squat needs internal rotation (implying nutation). Indeed the valgus we're talking about here is an inward (so external > internal) motion of the knees when going from deep-to-mid squat. I'm just sharing ideas that could be interesting other fit-geeks like myself, I'm not qualified to be more accurate than that :-) At my level of understanding, I just consider that paying attention to the joint position/alignment, feeling how well the transmit/absorb forces, should be one of the major focus, for strength and mobility. It's general (works from the ankle to the wrist), it's specific to your anatomy, and it's quite easy to develop the needed sensorimotor loop with "enough weight" or plyometrics (these are good). It's very likely that high level athlete have had an automatic and very efficient control of it since their childhood.
The problem is this has not been my experience in a practical sense working with people. Many times, less knee valgus seems to help alleviate knee pain in the people I’ve worked with
@@brandond5900 anecdotes and personal experience are not great evidence. For every person that pushes their knees out and fixes their knee pain there are people that are the opposite.
I was just thinking the other day about how my knees only go into valgus on heavy sets or the end reps of lighter sets and that it feels to me intuitively like my body is trying to find a position of better purchase or leverage, even if this is at the expense of stability, as my attention is solely focused on getting the weight up at all costs. This is similar in feeling to how my torso angle might shift forward to become more hip dominant or my back might start to round forward in deadlifts or backwards in overhead press as the reps get tough. Whether this is ultimately good or bad I don't know, I'm inclined to think that with enough load/effort form is inevitably going to break down, which is a valuable and essential part of learning movement, something that needs to be pushed through to get stronger and is unlikely to lead to snap city under most circumstances.
I get extreme pain where the medial patellotibial ligament attaches on the tibia if I allow even negligible valgus during squats. Almost gave up squats until I pinpointed the cause....
I've told people this exact thing. When you come into valgus, your adductors are shortened and less able to produce force, and it puts your hips into a strong position to extend. It's hard for people to wrap their heads around because they're too focused on hip rotation than the biomechanics. I first heard about this in the powerlifting world where it's become a relatively common teaching among good coaches with the rise of sumo pullers that your adductors could use work. In that extreme externally rotated position, there's a huge demand on the adductors to extend the hip, and there's a big stretch on the adductors as well. When I first learned to sumo pull for the first time 7 years ago or so, I did a lot of the adductor machine to help with my start position. Now I just do the machine for aesthetics since I do mostly knees forward, heel elevated squats and don't get as much adductor stimulus from squatting as I used to.
What about cartilage position? It is common sense that weight is more evenly distributed on cartilage greater surface when you do proper form (not caving knees)
My thoughts are that the amount of time spent in this position is only a tiny fraction of the total time you spend weight bearing and it's probably not going to significantly contribute to cartridge degeneration unless you have a permanent knee valgus.
@@chrisdturner it is cumulative damage, repetitive force in compromised position, foe young athlete no biggie, but 30 and something plus, you see difference, who used good and who bad mechanics
On the flipside, an argument can be made that loading different parts of the cartilage is better as opposed to loading the same part all the time. The research we have doesn't find consistent links between knee valgus and injury rates, nor mechanically injurious force levels.
@@menno.henselmans Cmon, Of the 429 handball and 451 football athletes (age 21.5 ± 4.0 years, height 169.6 ± 6.4 cm, body weight 67.1 ± 8.0 kg), do you people even read that studies... motion analysis; risk screening... for gods sake, this is major bs, how the f.. is this telling anything. Keep squating properly, and don't try to invent science from something that is not.
Menno, I’ve heard plenty of times that hamstrings aren’t trained much or well during squats, but when I’ve done low-bar squats, especially with a sumo squat variation on top of that, I’ve noticed that my hamstrings were sometimes almost as sore as if I did good mornings. From watching my form in videos and going by my mobility limitations, I certainly seem to have longer femurs relative to many who are more naturally capable of deep squats with a narrow stance. All of this is to say that I wonder if having certain anatomical traits such as I described are enough to make hamstrings become utilized, at least to a moderate extent, as an active “mover” of the exercise rather than only a stabilizer. I’d also have a pump in my hamstrings while squatting that way.
I guess because the way some does low bar, it does become a hybrid good morning with knee extension, as you are kinda 'good morning it' out of the hole, before extending your knees to straighten up
The little valgus dip you see in almost every max weight front squat is for sure advantageous. Every olympic weights lifter does it and I personally never felt pain in my knees doing that. Complete inability to do any squats without valgus throughout the lift is for sure a problem, two completely different things are happening here. You get into this kind of odd debates when you believe in simple statements like "knee valgus is bad". It depends how much, when and why its happening.
What about quadricep activation? Does the quadricep contribution increase or decrease with knee valgus. You would assume since glute activation increases to perform hip extension, then quadricep activation decreases. Would have implications for quadricep hypertrophy in squatting?
Finally something concrete to shut the mouths of people who view aesthetics as the greatest informer of technique and then hypothesise something based on fear mongering and start fixing things based on a feel on every "patient". What a shocker that the guessed method of therapy doesn't have the desired effect.
Watch Pumping Iron... There's a moment when *Franco lifts the car, and he uses the valgus in order to make it happen... Now, it may be the fact that his pants were that tight... But... It's still interesting.
Fk people trying to sound smart. Always stating things as fact for no reason. Then contradicting themselves. Just talk about whats objective man. Ffs. Every person in the industry yapping
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
I need a Menno pause
The more I learn, the less I know
This looks like a Tame Impala title
The dunning-Krueger effect. It’s a good thing
@@andyk613 lol yeah, so long as you pause a moment and reflect
Mate, I'm a physical therapist and massage therapist , I've also done a bit of academic research work. I know NOTHING. Absolutely frustrating.
I've seen so many Olympic weight lifters use this. Most actually for decades
As a physical therapist I see quite a bit of folks hurt themselves through caving the knees in when jumping. Usually meniscal tears, not ligaments tho
Wild shit. Just bought your book Menno - it’s great and very well laid out. Thanks for writing it!
I think that the pelvis position -- nutation or counter-nutation -- might have something to do with it, as it influences how well the SI joint stabilize the force (there are study on "form and force closure of the SI joint").
Considering the whole structure (I hope I don't misquote…) the Postural Restoration Institute guys say that upper/deeper-squat need external rotation (implying counter-nutation), while mid-squat needs internal rotation (implying nutation).
Indeed the valgus we're talking about here is an inward (so external > internal) motion of the knees when going from deep-to-mid squat.
I'm just sharing ideas that could be interesting other fit-geeks like myself, I'm not qualified to be more accurate than that :-)
At my level of understanding, I just consider that paying attention to the joint position/alignment, feeling how well the transmit/absorb forces, should be one of the major focus, for strength and mobility. It's general (works from the ankle to the wrist), it's specific to your anatomy, and it's quite easy to develop the needed sensorimotor loop with "enough weight" or plyometrics (these are good).
It's very likely that high level athlete have had an automatic and very efficient control of it since their childhood.
I love science that bucks conventional wisdom.
The problem is this has not been my experience in a practical sense working with people. Many times, less knee valgus seems to help alleviate knee pain in the people I’ve worked with
@@brandond5900 anecdotes and personal experience are not great evidence. For every person that pushes their knees out and fixes their knee pain there are people that are the opposite.
On the other end, I often push my knees out at the sticking point of the squat to make it out.
This channel is gold
Thank you, a friend of mine does this quite a lot and now I understand why and can help him better!
can you do one on butt wink next?
As someone who stopped doing high bar squats because of anxiety caused by knee valgus I needed to hear this. Thank you!
Holy crap my mind is blown....and also relieved because I've always struggled with this at maximal weights....just brilliant information 🤘
I was just thinking the other day about how my knees only go into valgus on heavy sets or the end reps of lighter sets and that it feels to me intuitively like my body is trying to find a position of better purchase or leverage, even if this is at the expense of stability, as my attention is solely focused on getting the weight up at all costs. This is similar in feeling to how my torso angle might shift forward to become more hip dominant or my back might start to round forward in deadlifts or backwards in overhead press as the reps get tough.
Whether this is ultimately good or bad I don't know, I'm inclined to think that with enough load/effort form is inevitably going to break down, which is a valuable and essential part of learning movement, something that needs to be pushed through to get stronger and is unlikely to lead to snap city under most circumstances.
Well that's surprising, appreciate the info
interesting topic, can you cover the good morning squat next?
I get extreme pain where the medial patellotibial ligament attaches on the tibia if I allow even negligible valgus during squats. Almost gave up squats until I pinpointed the cause....
I've told people this exact thing. When you come into valgus, your adductors are shortened and less able to produce force, and it puts your hips into a strong position to extend. It's hard for people to wrap their heads around because they're too focused on hip rotation than the biomechanics.
I first heard about this in the powerlifting world where it's become a relatively common teaching among good coaches with the rise of sumo pullers that your adductors could use work. In that extreme externally rotated position, there's a huge demand on the adductors to extend the hip, and there's a big stretch on the adductors as well. When I first learned to sumo pull for the first time 7 years ago or so, I did a lot of the adductor machine to help with my start position.
Now I just do the machine for aesthetics since I do mostly knees forward, heel elevated squats and don't get as much adductor stimulus from squatting as I used to.
What about cartilage position? It is common sense that weight is more evenly distributed on cartilage greater surface when you do proper form (not caving knees)
My thoughts are that the amount of time spent in this position is only a tiny fraction of the total time you spend weight bearing and it's probably not going to significantly contribute to cartridge degeneration unless you have a permanent knee valgus.
@@chrisdturner it is cumulative damage, repetitive force in compromised position, foe young athlete no biggie, but 30 and something plus, you see difference, who used good and who bad mechanics
On the flipside, an argument can be made that loading different parts of the cartilage is better as opposed to loading the same part all the time. The research we have doesn't find consistent links between knee valgus and injury rates, nor mechanically injurious force levels.
@@menno.henselmans Cmon, Of the 429 handball and 451 football athletes (age 21.5 ± 4.0 years, height 169.6 ± 6.4 cm, body weight 67.1 ± 8.0 kg), do you people even read that studies... motion analysis; risk screening... for gods sake, this is major bs, how the f.. is this telling anything. Keep squating properly, and don't try to invent science from something that is not.
You need to get in touch with Greg Lehmann, he s a great human, great researcher, great therapist and his podcast is solid.
Menno, I’ve heard plenty of times that hamstrings aren’t trained much or well during squats, but when I’ve done low-bar squats, especially with a sumo squat variation on top of that, I’ve noticed that my hamstrings were sometimes almost as sore as if I did good mornings. From watching my form in videos and going by my mobility limitations, I certainly seem to have longer femurs relative to many who are more naturally capable of deep squats with a narrow stance. All of this is to say that I wonder if having certain anatomical traits such as I described are enough to make hamstrings become utilized, at least to a moderate extent, as an active “mover” of the exercise rather than only a stabilizer. I’d also have a pump in my hamstrings while squatting that way.
I guess because the way some does low bar, it does become a hybrid good morning with knee extension, as you are kinda 'good morning it' out of the hole, before extending your knees to straighten up
Anecdotally I've noticed that over-cuing "knees out" during squats is the fastest way to make my knees hurt from squats.
Wish I could show this to my strength coaches back in school
Thanks doc!
The little valgus dip you see in almost every max weight front squat is for sure advantageous. Every olympic weights lifter does it and I personally never felt pain in my knees doing that.
Complete inability to do any squats without valgus throughout the lift is for sure a problem, two completely different things are happening here.
You get into this kind of odd debates when you believe in simple statements like "knee valgus is bad". It depends how much, when and why its happening.
It's true, look at pro dunkers, long jumpers, pole vaults, you will see knee valgus! I increased my vertical by focusing on knee valgus
What about quadricep activation? Does the quadricep contribution increase or decrease with knee valgus. You would assume since glute activation increases to perform hip extension, then quadricep activation decreases. Would have implications for quadricep hypertrophy in squatting?
I wouldn't expect an effect on the quads, unless the hip vs knee dominance changes (which may happen but that's individual).
Can you do one on flairing elbows when bench pressing
Anyone else notice this dude just start randomly popping up in your feed?
Finally something concrete to shut the mouths of people who view aesthetics as the greatest informer of technique and then hypothesise something based on fear mongering and start fixing things based on a feel on every "patient". What a shocker that the guessed method of therapy doesn't have the desired effect.
Watch Thor's knee valgus coming out the hole in his squats. He has very strong glutes.
💪💪💪
Am i the only one that thinks their CSGO Match is starting occasionally, when this video is in the background
Watch Pumping Iron... There's a moment when *Franco lifts the car, and he uses the valgus in order to make it happen... Now, it may be the fact that his pants were that tight... But... It's still interesting.
🤯
✝️💪
The problem with knee valgus is not lifting inefficiency but knee damage. When the valgus pushes your knee sideways, you might get hurt.
Did you watch the video?
Get hurt how exactly?…
bro you *gotta* stop using the csgo accept-match-timer-bleep.mp3 as a sound effect (like 4:40)
Hate to be so off topic, but seeing that you have flawless skin, when is the botox coming?
Ha, I don't think I'll use botox, although I'm not opposed to its use.
Fk people trying to sound smart. Always stating things as fact for no reason. Then contradicting themselves. Just talk about whats objective man. Ffs. Every person in the industry yapping