I wonder if the original bcm had corruption in its configuration and when you reprogrammed it the corruption was corrected, sort of like re-formatting a drive
Most people would've given up a long time ago or may not even attempted this fix. Great job Ivan. Your instruction is a huge time saver and also shows the necessary steps to solving problems. Continue being "you". Your video content, your personality, and your honesty even when making mistakes, are a perfect combination to a great video. Thanks again.
I agree but then there are some mechanics who deal with diagnostics as a profession and feel the need to learn which will help them much down the road. That's the difference between good tech's and ones who are better off replacing batteries, alternators etc. There's just no end to these overly engineered computer run cars...its almost insane what they bypass in common sense just to put a lot of things to be managed/controlled by computer modules. Half the problems are in poor quality components that cannot pass a self destruction test in just 3 years or can't deal with the weather elements or simply fail due to poor solder joints. The modules shouldn't fail, period. then we have a long discussion as the the quality of the wiring terminators/connection. Most of these problems are in quality of manufacturing or poor assembly and design/installation of components. It's a complete expense to the public to have to pay to chase down the imperfections in todays cars. By that I mean, there is no room for tollerance, if its not perfect, it won't operate correctly and the more one thing has to do with other tings, the more difficult it is to diagnose.
@@Garth2011 Can you believe that anyone in the future will be able to relive one of these electronic gems like people who restore our older make of cars! don't think so! and we call this progress !
@@garyalford9394 I think its all about control however, many just do not get that could be the plan. The more we hang around, the less freedom there is as our recent history has proven. If you are a slouch dealership who doesn't maintain highly qualified mechanics, vehicle owners are forced to go there for one thing or another.
I am a computer systems engineer. Often when we have trouble with computer hardware, we upgrade the firmware even if it is the same version. The "upgrade" process rewrites the code to the chips and often fixes the problems. I think that is what you experienced. Why the issue in the first place? Often a small current drop or surge can scramble the data just enough to cause intermittent problems. Good job, Ivan!
Ivan you got the patience of a saint working on all this computer and electrical stuff ! It keeps getting harder for the average back yard mechanic to work on this stuff !
A glitch in the matrix maybe the reprogramming rectified it. Nice work and thanks for uploading videos like this. There’s a lot of people who maybe wouldn’t
I would agree with this poster... When you went through the relearning of the original BCM when the code was written over you probably corrected the code errors... It only takes one BIT being either being (on/off) to redirect the software to do strange things... Good to hear you both WON on this one...
Hey Ivan, just thought I’d tell you. I’m a former Honda certified and ASE certified master technician. I also own the thinktool pro+ and the autel maxisys ms919. Just last weekend I replaced the BCM on a 2018 Honda odyssey with a used BCM, but I was able to program the keys with no issue using the thinktool. Even when the ignition didn’t turn on. I see what you did wrong, when the scanner tells you to push the start button for the first time, you have to keep it pushed until the ignition comes on. In the video, you pushed the button for a little while, then you let it go when the next pop-up window appeared on the scanners screen. By doing this, you interrupted whatever process was happening. If you would have started it all over again and held the start button down until it turned on, you wouldn’t have needed to jumper the relays.👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I just posted my issue on the 2019 MDX and yes thats where you went wrong. My issue seems to be a bad can bus circuit preventing communication with the TPMS unit.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics you have to hold it down for a few seconds but only when you go through the corresponding menu in the scanner. One touch start button menu. It says to hold the button for x amount of time. Mine would beep but then the screen shuts down which leave me to believe it tries to run on ignition but I have another issue somewhere. I once thought the tpms unit need to be brand new but I can be wrong.
I've experienced this same thing. This is why one of the first thing I do is a hard reset. Disconnect the battery. Connect the terminals together as to drain the capacitors in the modules. Then reconnect the battery. Effectively doing what you did which is disconnecting the module. Sometimes these modules act like Windows software. It glitches. And gets corrupt. Resetting the module like turning off the PC and turning it back on sometimes resolves these kinds of issues. I had a Nissan that had a faulty transmission. It had DTC's in it previous the repair. After replacing the transmission I now had new codes. I did circles for hours. Thinking I did something wrong. But couldn't find evidence that validated the codes. So I did a hard reset. Codes gone. Car is still fixed and on the road. That's how a lot of these newer cars with many many modules are now. They can literally create false issues based on modules just glitching out. And so now you have consider in your diagnostics wether or not these codes are real. Wether or not the symptoms are due to a faulty part or corrupt information. It's crazy. And getting more difficult all the time.
We have a local lock and safe company here that runs a mobile unit. They are the ones I call in this kind of situation. He keeps all the updated programs for automobiles. ;) Like you Ivan, it is something I do not do at this time.
Imagine that, a specialty business that deals with computer module programming just like meachanics who specialize in diagnosing vehicles. No longer are the days of an all around mechanic or shop. Cars today need a speciasist in transmissions, engines, electrical, security etc. What a complete disaster.
OMG Ivan!!! Dude, buddy, friend!! WOW, just when I thought you knew it all, I just witnessed you learn something NEW!!! You are the man. You are on your game friend.
@Hack, yea I think there are several good lessons on this one. First, it's electrical and there is software/hardware so sometimes there are electrical issues like with wiring/voltage etc,. sometimes it's also software related where there could be something "corrupted" and there can also be something mechanical such as components/pins etc., needing to be cleaned/disconnected/reseated just as Ivan mentioned at the end. I also recall a strange oddity occurring one time with one of my old cars and it's key fob. Somehow, being in/near another car and transmitter, a totally different one mind you, my key fob would no longer interact with my car. Nothing got wet, no battery issues etc. I unlocked the car with the key and thankfully it uses an actual key with a resistor to start the car... But I had to go through the rather painless procedure of re-registering my key fobs and the only difference had been the fact that I was driving this other car and had the key fobs, using them together. Never had anything like that happened before so I intentionally put them together again, pressed the buttons etc., and again my fobs stopped interacting with the car.
These types of jobs on Hondas was always confusing even to us in the dealer with the factory software. Believe it or not holding the key against the button for a while definitely works even with aftermarket scanners. It’s silly but if you hold it long enough it will actually turn on. I couldn’t believe but you know me and I only speak facts from what I’ve seen. They really need to change the way they word this stuff bc it’ll easily irritate the best of us sometimes. Good job tho as always!
A key moment “20:04”. The EEPROM error reported a year or more ago might be the warning that it had a previous issue that cleared itself or gave false signals to the bcm. If this issue surfaces again the keyless access system feeding the bcm should be monitored or isolated before condemning the bcm.
As an ET for 35 years, I have seen EEPROMS that will flip bits and cause many different problems. By reprogramming it, you have fixed it for now, but it will happen again. The EEPROM is bad and the only way to fix it for good is replace it.
EEPROM stands for Electrical Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory; a chip that is able to store code or program that's kept when the board is powered off. During initializing (start-up or wake-up) it's probably compared with the stored year 2018 of the car's production date in the ECM. Although the original module seems to have a production date of 17/09/2015, the EEPROM inside will have the year 2018 programmed into it before installation in the car. It would not surprise me if the EEPROM error indicates that the ECM will only accept a replacement module that's programmed (not produced!) less than a year earlier. Honda's way of keeping the dealers happy? Date of module production on the label does NOT mean that the program inside is from that same year. They can produce X amount of the same modules with empty EEPROM's and program them when needed; depending on brand, model, year and other specs. Keep that in mind when buying on eBay...
Wow. Best thing I got out of this was deciding which one of our 5 vehicles to sell. 3 Toyotas, 1 GM fun car, and a 2018 Honda(HMR) Guess which one got the short straw. Thanks again Ivan.
The Honda motorbike is ok thankfully there quad's at least are still very good at least the 250 is anyway I'm new to these kinds of vehicles so I don't know much about them let's hope Honda won't destroy there small engine stuff.
@@neilmurphy845 I really cannot kick on the Honda vehicle’s, my wife’s has 80k and never had one issue. And also She was QC for a local company that makes a lot of parts for Honda, and they have the most strict specs. In the industry.
All good technicians take a loss now and then, like you said it's a learning process. It sucks for time spent vs time paid, but sometimes it just comes down to integrity. Sometimes modules just need to be reset, why? We don't know. It just happens. Sometimes we get paid for getting lucky. Keep these videos coming Ivan. Love the process.
It's not really loss. You just have to think of it as school time. But by the end, you come out the other side knowing how to do it well and if you do 2 or 3 of the same cars after that, you'll blaze right through them fast.
you get easy jobs, hard jobs, and somewhere in between. it all balances out in the end. winning that customer for life is the real prize.. going to bed every night knowing you will never be broke because there is a steady stream of income is priceless and you did fair, honest work .
with all of the software, firmware, ect, getting to be proprietary we will see this more and more.. just think what electric vehicles will be like. they are already going to electric steering, braking systems.. nightmares !! multiple processors to run everything. the automatic updates the manufacturers put thru to cars via sattelite, will cause many problems, and that could be what happened to this car.. you think Honda will admit to it? think they will contact customers and say hey, we did some updates to your BCM module, and found out it was corrupted, or incompatible after we did it, so come in, we will reflash your BCM to its original state and your car will start and run again.. NOT HAPPENING!!!!! Alot of the computer systems and programming is done in China, Taiwan ect. do u think they give a rats ass if your car works or not? The stealerships dont even know how the systems work on an intimate level, they just replace parts from a troubleshooting flowchart and hope for the best.. if they cant fix them, they auction them off. I use a still a Garmin Gps independent unit stuck to my windshield and will never own a car with the bullshit infotainment or key in the car sensing system.. if your too lazy to pull a key out of your pocket and stick it in a hole and turn it, you shouldnt be driving. my 2017 caravan has the remote door lock, but if it fails theres a key inside the fob that will let me open and start the van.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Hey Ivan, I had trouble with copying keys on an Acura in the past, it simply would not let me program more than one key at a time. If I told it to "Make 2 keys" -- it would fail every time. But If I just did it 1 key at a time, it would work great. So try that next time-- only add ONE key and see if it works. You can always go back through it again and copy the second and third keys.
Real life stuff here people!! Man, Ivan, I’m impressed! It’s hard when we get our hands tied behind our backs by the OE and still have to try to fix the car!
You are spot on that their BCM unit has way too many connections - as someone who does board-level repairs to modern electronic equipment I'd immediately suspect bad connections inside. The use of non lead-bearing solder and the push to smaller and smaller components on boards sets things up for mechanical failure. So much for cost reduction at the expense of reliability. Even with a conformal coating on the board, temperature changes along with vibration and stress can create poor solder connections. Just too bad it didn't fail during the warranty period! Anyway, keep up the great diagnostic work!
If it was me, and I'm not positive but this is my goto method. Connect the obd11 breakout box. cross 1 and 16 and usually the ignition comes on and you are able to program keys. Help desks won't ever tell you to do this. there are locksmith tools that force the ignition on. and all that they do is cross these pins. the tool is about 115.00 plugs in to the obd11 port and has a connector to plug your scan tool into. there is a switch on it that turns on the ignition.
What a trip! That's so sad how that whole process is even needed in the first place, and the complexity on the scan tool. The HDS can register the new BCM in one menu, one process, and it takes 10 minutes. The one thing that caught my eye was one of the first prompts on the thinktool during your programming: "Don't release the start button until the ignition is turned on". The first thing the HDS does is force the ignition on and it asks you to hold the ignition for multiple seconds while the HDS does it's thing, and then the car turns on. As to why the old BCM works again? FM. I suspect it will return shortly.
By reprogramming the BCM, you unpaired the Remote Start module that was having issues and causing the problem. The remote start module was the problem from the beginning. There was a Honda tech in the other video that confirmed that these remote-start modules are known to fail in weird modes like this, causing weird symptoms like the ignition switching on.
Ivan, after watching your video i would like to share my experience with a 2019 Honda ridgeline. Same exact problems. I had the car for days and couldn't recreate the car intermittently turning itself on, i left the remote inside our office well away from the car. I had a test light wired up hanging from the back bumper spliced into the IGN relay control ckt. Eventually i caught it in the act while walking across the shop. I had to end up replacing the Keyless Access Control Module. It was located behind the glove box, and was similar to that bcm. I was Leary because of lack of info, but went through the same thought process you did. Being the only thing that controls those relays it had to be it. This was right before covid and the module was 1700 and special order only as the car at the time was still newish. Sucessfull repair on my part. Keep up the good work. Love your videos
So in other words a "no parts required" fix! Again!! It is still amazing to watch your problem solving process, another great outcome for the customer.
One thing I learned in electronics class was "chip creak". A lot of IC's were not mounted directly to boards, but inserted into sockets that were. boards that did not power up prior to pushing down on the IC's mounted in the sockets often did after. The expansion and contraction from heating & cooling of power on/off cycles, the chips would "walk" themselves out of the sockets they rested in. It was satisfying to have a board power on after pushing the IC's back into their sockets, but it was more satisfying feeling that "crunch" of pushing the IC's back into their sockets. Removing the 5 cables from the old BCM, and putting it back in, could've resolved the problem. Heck my power window went out. the fuse was not blown, but the act of removing the fuse to check it and putting it back in resolved the problem. Surface oxidization on the metal contacts?
Nevertheless, you saved that customer a lot of money, Ivan. You showed incredible patience trying to program the keys (power on, power off, etc, etc). After part 1, I thought it odd that you didn't go to the BCM connectors and verify the signals and the connectors as you have done so many times in the past. Just figured you did all that off camera. Oh well, all's well that ends well. Great job, great video!
i'm glad keith is a friend of yours as the wealth of knowledge from him is extraordinary..what a curve ball fix but so far it is working so shrug was a weird ghost Honda from beginning..well done Ivan..
Fantastic episode. When you were at a seeming impasse due to lack of security credentials, I found myself shouting "Call Keith"! Once you did, his suggestion for the workaround was characteristically brilliant. Final cure of unplugging and re-plugging is good lesson.
I once had two identical units with identical controllers - both of which were intermittently unhappy. I was able to permanently fix both by simply swapping controllers between the two units.
As a software engineer, I'd guess that the reprogramming of the original BCM wrote the new data in a different location than the original. If there was a problem reading data from the original location, the behavior could very well be undefined. When troubleshooting very complex systems, success usually depends on persistence; and you kept trying different approaches until you stumbled across one that worked. It's a hard way to make a living, but I am often forced to do the exact same thing ;-)
Too funny FM. When I was working we had to analyze electronic circuits on. Quite often if the card was pulled out and put back it would work. We called it PFM. Pure f magic
Your FM comment reminded me of times in the past working on communications equipment. There were times when everything passed the tests, but the problem persisted, then after days of re-testing the problem came clear and everything worked. We had no clue what the problem was but we had become so frustrated we were glad to mark it down as Black Magic.
I'm betting there was a bit flip in one of the modules. When you tried to install the eBay replacement, you had to flush the old data (EEPROM codes) and replace it. Therefore, when you went to re-install the original part, the Odyssey accepted that information as fresh, thereby clearing the data error/bit flip issue, returning the vehicle to service. I often do this type of reset when I'm flashing cell phones, for one reason or another. It helps to reset the settings for all the radios in the device, making the old data, seem new again. Nice job on this one Ivan, It WAS a bit of fun! Can't believe those dealerships kicked you out - You are a benefit to any business you assist! They should get over themselves, soon!! 🤔🤨🤣🤣
What a convoluted and detailed programming procedure. I admire your perseverance. I could see the frustration on your facial expressions but you kept your cool. The hours you charged the customer just reinforces what we already have come to know about your ethics. After all that grief your efforts apparently did solve the problem. Oh and a special shout out to Keith Defazio.
Love it. 15 years at Honda the solution to all electrical issues is hard battery reset lol as per honda internal service bulletins. Also when replacing any modules if you do replace ecm/pcm it goes through all the steps usually. I always did that for new ignition keys ect.
I don't recall. Did you check how many keys were programmed ? Is there a turn-on log? My suspicion is that there is a FOB somewhere inside or around the car (the old key-under-the-flower-pot trick) that was waking it up.
Good point! Some third party remote start systems us a "hidden key" to get around the security system. By having to reprogram the keys on the original BCM, the defective remote has been shut out. That would explain a lot!!
I work for Honda and had a 2020 or 2021 CRV ( I don't exactly remember, it's been awhile now) that came in with only a few thousand miles with this exact issue. Customer said it would come on randomly. Literally the exact same thing this van was doing. That one was not as much of a head scratcher as it had a DTC stored that basically pointed to BCM replacement. So far, that's the only vehicle to come to our dealer with that issue. Waited almost 2 months for that thing to show up off backorder. Replaced, programmed the keys and it was good to go. Hasn't been back once with a repeat issue. Really enjoyed these videos. I'm not the best at diagnosing stuff, but I try my best to get more comfortable. Just watching your process helps me out.
Just a quick thought: The BCM may have gone into a tamper/theft mode because the relays were powered up out of order. For example, the expected order of activation may be ACC, IG1A and IG1B, then IG2. Since they were all activated simultaneously with the test lamp, it wouldn't allow key programming.
I had this problem with my 2017 Acura MDX. It was turning on by itself, and setting off the alarm over and over again. Also, the key fob no longer opens my doors. I actually found a video here on RUclips that told me how to fix the issue. It was the Smart start module. In my Acura, this was located behind the glove box, which had to be taken out to get to it. It had to be opened and a certain component needed to be cleaned with Alcohol. I followed the instruction on the video, and I have not had the problem since. I will post the link to that video next.
Hey Ivan! I know I'm late to this party but I'm a big fan. So, dunno if anyone else caught this but you kept letting go of the START/STOP button. It takes a few seconds for the scantool to take control of the immobilizer system. Next go round, use the remote to press the button and hold until the ignition comes on. Cheers!!
I recently had one of these in my shop/ same issue. Unplugged it and waited for a while.. plugged it back in.. the issue remained. Replaced BCM. Issue resolved. Thank you for your efforts bro 😎
This was/is a crazy case study. The fix was almost as mysterious as the symptom. And for the record, this is technically another No Parts Required repair! King Ivan the NPR GREAT!
He put the original BCM back in and repogragramed all system to talk to each other. The van would crank to start with it may still have the same issue as before time will tell as it was intermediate to begin with.
Every vehicle has different options and and you just have to check out all features in depth. I have mastered an easy vehicle 05 Saturn. And still learning and 16 Cruze. Thanks Ivan. I’ve learned a lot and still learning.
From a computer guy's point of view: yes, reseating components sometimes scares away the ghosts in your electronics. The other way to scare them off reliably is to add 400V. You can see them scurry away in a puff of magic ghost smoke :D
Good effort .. Impressive. There is always a personal cost for education. I have to eat time occasionally myself doing computer repairs. Sometimes electronics hold a static charge until everything is unplugged from it and forced to die and then resurrected ... lol..
For industrial PCs there is a similar failure mode with dirty contacts going intermittent, basically dirty and oxidized contacts. The contact issue is so common that before even troubleshooting the computer, I take all the boards out, inspect and clean up the mother board connectors (Deoxit D5 spray, unless really dirty than Deoxit D100 spray and/or D100 with needle applicator. If contacts are gold I use G100L (ProGold) needle applicator, after spray cleaning connector with D5 spray.) I then use wipes to clean and condition the edge connectors (two step if gold D5 spray, or D100, then G100L) . I reassemble the computer and it usually will boot and run with no problem. Then I run my system hardware checks, and if the PS is very old I will inspect and replace if necessary. I then do all of the "standard" software testing checks. So, I think the approach to the problem in the video might have some preliminary steps. The first is to inspect, clean and condition all the module (BCM) connector contacts. Then if the problem persists, I would either reprogram the module with the latest firmware release and test again, or I would start my troubleshoot as you have shown. So the priority would be cleaning and conditioning contacts, verify and/or program latest firmware, then troubleshooting as normal.
I see in the documents that it only works on VW beetle 2006-2010. I have used on bmw s and VWs. I know crossing the pins has worked on other cars for me , just don't recall which ones. I usually look at a diagram first. Pin one is commonly a comm line. Comm lines are very resilient. Grounding or applying B+ doesn't ever seem to damage anything. I have grounded and powered can lines to explore different testing methods and they always seem to return to normal. Conclusion, I am probably wrong about this working on your honda. But this is something to keep in mind when programming keys in the future. Thanks Ivan .
This is why I work on only classic cars. My customers, at times are not so cooperative. I think you said it too.. "Keep your old cars running".. I drive a 42 year old truck. Thanks Ivan!
WOW! What an hellish procedure Honda came up with! Very clever bypass of the conundrum :-) If the BCM is OK now, either it was a soft problem and the reprogramming solved it or, like you said, some spooky contact in the bundle (Halloween approaching?). As for the replacement BCM, could it be that, being a unit intended for China, it wouldn't speak to, or recognize properly, the rest of the modules? Or was it simply just bad? Very crazy stuff!
Too many Honda repair/replacement procedures assume that a system that is broken is being rewound on the factory floor and has no other issues. All failure modes and conditions are not considered. Like a hybrid that needs a 12V battery charged to start and that is charged by the EV battery, which is drained flat. A recent EV, has an electric hood release, a 12V battery under that hood, and no external mechanical bypass for the hood lock or jump connector. A dead battery locks you out. Teslas have electric door releases and mechanical releases that are difficult to access for children and older passengers unfamiliar with the vehicle.
@@psdaengr911 Yep, that is very true. This increasing complexity in cars, is causing more problems than it solves, but the EVs are on a completely new level, bordering the ridiculous (the other day, the passengers on an electric ferry had to be rescued by the Coast Guard, because the batteries went dead in the middle of the river).
I've been watching you for over 2 years. You are an honest man. In my younger years I was an electronic tech repairing home and car audio. Occasionally I would get a unit that should have taken 1.5 hrs to repair, but for reasons unknown it took longer. I would charge the customer a reasonable price. Keep up the great schooling you give all of us who watch your channel.
Really enjoyed watching the video(s). Good news, i hope it stays fixed! I have had good luck un-plugging modules leave it set for a few hours and re-connecting! That was cool how you figured out how to powerup the replacement BCM.
I monitors when you press the start button . It goes acc then ign . When you were turning them all on at once I think the bcm saw that and got confused 🤔🤔. You would need a cheap key programmer to allow you to turn the ign on without a key programed to it . The scanners will not turn on the ignition with no key or no key programed to it . I loved how you bypassed and turned on the ign . Loved it
I hate to hate on the car dealerships and their service, they're not evil aliens, just regular apes like the rest of us. And I think I can appreciate the need for proprietary programming codes that protect a car owner's security from auto theft. (and I bet if anyone at the Honda dealership where you're banned looks at this video they're gonna call you a hacker for your genius bypass of their protocols). But the proprietary interests of the car owner must be supreme. He should have total access to any service info or security codes pertaining to his car. He paid the money and has legal title and should receive free tech support when changing perishable components. This constant extortion of money from car owners and independent techs by the manufacturers for service info and programming codes outside the dealership network must stop! Videos like yours help me understand where support for the Right To Repair movement is coming from. Keep it up.
THIS is a excellent video IVAN. you were able to show how to bypass the computer to allow the scanner to talk to the system.That allowed you to attempt a replacement.The scanner did pick up AN OLD ISSUE 1 year ago,means to me the car THIS UNIT may have had an issue and the car was scrapped or the unit replaced and at the high cost- the owner kept his old unit{THIS ONE} and decided to RE-COUP some money and sell it on ebay???BUT that's just my thought process,After all it's electronics it's not like selling MING DYNASTY pottery where if the pot was broken in the past you could super glue it back together and the buyer WOULDN'T"T NOTICE.haha Your intuition on a bad unit sounds correct.thanks
Ivan your tenacity is unreal and commendable. Many would have given up after the replacement BCM would not program, but you kept on digging for an answer. Now, since you don't know what the root cause was; somewhere in the future you are going to get a call and he is going to say it is doing it again. EEPROM issue is going to raise it's ugly head again.
Reminds me of when I tried replacing my key FOB with a used eBay one. My original fob would only work ~1ft away from the car. Tried programming the new key, got the system stuck in learning mode. New key would not register. Realized my original key was no longer registered. Went to reregister it and bam my original FOB started working… now it can reliably unlock my car from ~10ft away and I have no idea why, other than messing with the keyless entry module must have fixed it. Ended up returning the eBay key LOL
Magic, Well The Bcm might Have Just needed some recalibration or programming in my assumption.. Maybe that could explain why The customer Compliant was Fixed!.. Good one ivan!🤞🏻 The bypass test to illuminate the cluster was a cool one😁
that Eeprom error you saw is probably the culprit here. It might have fixed itself through the programming but it will likely happen again if that eeprom is corrupted. i've come across that before on other equipment...eeprom errors might go away but they only lie dormant waiting to resurface
Ivan, I agree that you have to eat your time on occasion when you encounter a situation like this and chalk it up to experience. And these type experiences will probably be on the increase as I get the impression that the 'programming' is designed to maintain the work flow at the dealerships. Planned intricacy if you will.
Just finished both parts. That was amazing hot-wiring the modules to force programming 👍🏻 Worrying the problem has disappeared I suspect you'll see that again at some point! I've been looking at the newer CR-Vs here in the UK, those have the same instrument cluster as that Odyssey so probably the same spicy Mexican modules 😂 I think I'll stick with older cars for the moment with plenty of used spares available.
Mucho long ago I worked at a Radio Shack, fixing stuff customers brought in. It was a sweet gig, as Radio Shack had really good service manuals and you would either go to their transistor wall and grab a similar transistor, or write a little postcard to RS Central and in two days you would get back the correct part. One day a radio came in and it wouldn't work from the C-cells in the back. A little poking with a voltmeter showed that one of the battery contacts which was clean and chrome-plated and firmly riveted in place, there was no continuity between the spring and the attached wire! It looked physically perfect and tight, but no go. Craziest no-continuity situation I ever saw.
I absolutely HATE IT when programable electronics behave this way! I am very glad that you learned from this hell of a problem. Other Hondas that get into this may
Be easier to diagnose and fix now. When functionality and options are intertwined this way, no one wins. Does Honda want to sell more test equipment and certifcations?!!
I remember years ago I had a 1985 Mitsubishi Galant - a very advanced car for it's time. It was only about 3 years old when I was driving it one day and all the dash warning lights came on, no matter what i tried I could not get them to go off. Even tried disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it. I phoned up the dealer and spoke to one of the techs there and he advised me to reach under the dash and unplug the main ECU whilst battery power was still connected to the car, and then plug it back in again. Hey presto, everything went back to normal. It was a fault they had seen before, and had learned by chance how to resolve it. I kept the car for a further 4 years and it never done it again. Certainly some magic there! But in the case of your Honda, I wonder if some code stored in one of the emproms was corrupted, and by you reprogramming a few bits you overwrote the dodgy bit of code? Because like you, I struggle to see how a dodgy connector could cause the car to power up those relays. Very interesting case.
Ivan, you did a video of an Impala with an ABS light that was on. You unplugged it, plugged it back in and it was fixed! I had a 2001 Cavalier that had a similar problem. The ABS light would randomly come on. It would go out and then ABS was fine. It had what looked like the same connector as in the video you did. I unplugged mine, plugged it in again and then the ABS never came on again. NPR! That Impala video was the one that got me watching all of your videos! Maybe sometimes the communication is jacked up between the modules and unplugging them reestablishes the communication. Hopefully the Honda lasts as long as my Cavalier did... 400,000 miles!
Hi Ivan, Thanks for taking us through that exhausting programming procedure. Guess a Honda will not be in my future, but most likely the manufactures will try to include more functions into fewer modules. You and your family stay safe.
We need to go back to simpler times! to many touchy electronics, and parts you wont be able to get when the vehicles are older. Yeah I know, E.V's are now here! lol !!
I just had also the same problem in a 19 Honda ridge line with the addition of the alarm randomly going off Had to replace the keyless access/ TPMS the ignition was completely dead after replacement But I found in the thinktool pros that the push start module had a section to turn on ignition and it worked after that it even programmed everything including the keys Unbelievable tool thanks for recommendation (just purchased it as you rate it so high) Hopefully this helps if that Honda comes back or if another car has the problem
how funny is that. Up to now the car was turning itself ON, but now Ivan is searching for a way to turn the car ON, as now the keys have to be programmed and the Comp is not working without the key ON. This stuff with the going around the security protocol, is cool. But only in this case. Thanks Ivan.
This was a challenge, no doubt about that. As I mentioned in the past if you learn something new, then time is not wasted. You can either pay money & go to a formal class, or learn on the job. As long as the learning on the job does not cost you in the form of loss of or bad reputation, then you are on top. I hope the owner has no problems moving forward.
"I'm sure there is a lot more to come" - truer words were never spoken! I'm thinking you may have cycled some internal logic stuff that fixed the problem - it may not have been a connection. Kinda like removing and reinstalling software. But if it was a connection thing, then this illustrates how some systems defy logic - they are just too complex to master. A third possibility is Artificial Intelligence. I was thinking when you were obeying those commands over and over to turn the ignition on and then off so many times - the BCM was laughing. After laughing long enough, it was worn down and gave in. If it had chosen to communicate with you, and if it did not have pride, it would have said "You are a worthy opponent".
I have similar experience. At work, among other things< i also fix ticketing equipment on buses. Due to environment (frequent temperature changes whenever door opens and closes) there is a chance of condensation forming on connectors, that over times creates a thin layer of oxidation. So, before i start diagnosis little squirt of contact cleaner, and in some 40-50% of cases diagnosis is "no faults fou8nd"
This is one of the most interesting video you have done. Very well done. This is a issue that has effected a lot of people and seems to be present on 2015-2019 Honda's, just about every model. Here are a few of the many examples. 6 Months Ago; "Just imagine your vehicle turning on by itself all the time and draining the battery. This last October, My 2018 Honda CRV Ex was completely dead and would not turn on. Battery was dead. Jumped it, charged it up, same thing happened the next day. My civic has the almost exact same problem. They say faulty bcm and I have been going through the same loops as you waiting for the new part. Months of waiting and them pushing the date back further, no amount of case or case managers or “district managers” is getting me my car back any faster. I’m done with honda after this. My part came in about 4 weeks ago. Honda paid half and I was out $400. It's so nice for it to be working again. Had no problems since. This same thing is happening to me with a 2017 CRV touring. It’s new to me, just bought it barely six weeks ago." The problem is nobody knows why Honda has so many bad BCMs. The normal things, water intrusion, impacts, etc. are a given. Shorts has also been given as a possible cause. I would guess that a short on one of more of the nearly 1,000 wires connecting to the BCM in these cars could permanently damage the BCM. We likely will never know. Looks like others have had to go to Dealers multiple times, and have long waits to get this issue diagnosed. You did it far more quickly, and with a lot less trouble for the owner. Again, extremely interesting, and very well done Ivan. Omegaman
Not many people as brilliant as Ivan ! wish we all could be! maybe made in Mexico also has something to do with Honda's problems. Probably be worse when these cars get older.
@@garyalford9394 Yes, I think made in Mexico (most are) or China (the only two places they are made), could have something to do with it. I would like to say though, this could be either a design flaw, or a manufacturing issue (whichever one, it's repeatable), or it could be some outside force, such as moisture, or maybe a short on one of the outputs from the BCM, also repeatable. We may never know for sure.
You should invest in the autel IM508 or IM608 Professional key programming tool. It will pull security info without any keys. I had someone lose all keys to a 2008 nissan maxima and I made keys and programmed them. Good video.
Ivan, this stuff is getting sort of crazy. Really appreciate you taking us through it all. I'd say the next time you visit your buddy dinner is on you. Thanks for Sharing!
The money you are paid from one job goes quickly.
The knowledge lasts a lifetime.
Honda: Dealer-only fix, no way around it, end of story.
Ivan: "Hold my test light"
I wonder if the original bcm had corruption in its configuration and when you reprogrammed it the corruption was corrected, sort of like re-formatting a drive
Interesting thought. Sounds possible 🤔
I was thinking the same I work in the fire alarm industry and have found may times just re down loading its software corrects the issue.
Just like reinstalling a clean install of Windows 7.
@@Garth2011 ...windows 7 ...lol
I write firmware, and I was thinking along similar lines 👍
Most people would've given up a long time ago or may not even attempted this fix.
Great job Ivan. Your instruction is a huge time saver and also shows the necessary steps to solving problems.
Continue being "you". Your video content, your personality, and your honesty even when making mistakes, are a perfect combination to a great video. Thanks again.
Thanks Scott, never a boring moment in this line of work 😅
I agree but then there are some mechanics who deal with diagnostics as a profession and feel the need to learn which will help them much down the road. That's the difference between good tech's and ones who are better off replacing batteries, alternators etc. There's just no end to these overly engineered computer run cars...its almost insane what they bypass in common sense just to put a lot of things to be managed/controlled by computer modules. Half the problems are in poor quality components that cannot pass a self destruction test in just 3 years or can't deal with the weather elements or simply fail due to poor solder joints. The modules shouldn't fail, period. then we have a long discussion as the the quality of the wiring terminators/connection. Most of these problems are in quality of manufacturing or poor assembly and design/installation of components. It's a complete expense to the public to have to pay to chase down the imperfections in todays cars. By that I mean, there is no room for tollerance, if its not perfect, it won't operate correctly and the more one thing has to do with other tings, the more difficult it is to diagnose.
@@Garth2011 Can you believe that anyone in the future will be able to relive one of these electronic gems like people who restore our older make of cars! don't think so! and we call this progress !
@@garyalford9394 I think its all about control however, many just do not get that could be the plan. The more we hang around, the less freedom there is as our recent history has proven. If you are a slouch dealership who doesn't maintain highly qualified mechanics, vehicle owners are forced to go there for one thing or another.
Extremely impressive. Rather than ban you...the Honda dealer should pay you for the lessons learned that they probably didn't know.
I am a computer systems engineer. Often when we have trouble with computer hardware, we upgrade the firmware even if it is the same version. The "upgrade" process rewrites the code to the chips and often fixes the problems. I think that is what you experienced. Why the issue in the first place? Often a small current drop or surge can scramble the data just enough to cause intermittent problems. Good job, Ivan!
Question is, what or why did the firmware get corrupted if thats a fair description for it?
@@Garth2011 Sounds crazy, but cosmic particles can do that. Also nearby lightning hit or some orher source of strong elecromagnetic pulse.
Agreed, and I absolutely hate this type of "no problem" problem!
Ever experience “bitrot”?
It's enough to help someone to start his car with cables for to have some strange problems occuring, but this one was a hard one.
Ivan you got the patience of a saint working on all this computer and electrical stuff ! It keeps getting harder for the average back yard mechanic to work on this stuff !
And independent shops too.
A glitch in the matrix maybe the reprogramming rectified it.
Nice work and thanks for uploading videos like this.
There’s a lot of people who maybe wouldn’t
I would agree with this poster... When you went through the relearning of the original BCM when the code was written over you probably corrected the code errors... It only takes one BIT being either being (on/off) to redirect the software to do strange things... Good to hear you both WON on this one...
Hey Ivan, just thought I’d tell you. I’m a former Honda certified and ASE certified master technician. I also own the thinktool pro+ and the autel maxisys ms919. Just last weekend I replaced the BCM on a 2018 Honda odyssey with a used BCM, but I was able to program the keys with no issue using the thinktool. Even when the ignition didn’t turn on. I see what you did wrong, when the scanner tells you to push the start button for the first time, you have to keep it pushed until the ignition comes on. In the video, you pushed the button for a little while, then you let it go when the next pop-up window appeared on the scanners screen. By doing this, you interrupted whatever process was happening. If you would have started it all over again and held the start button down until it turned on, you wouldn’t have needed to jumper the relays.👍
Interesting! Great to know! 👍🙂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I just posted my issue on the 2019 MDX and yes thats where you went wrong. My issue seems to be a bad can bus circuit preventing communication with the TPMS unit.
@@DIYeverything513 how long do you have to hold down the button? 🤔
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics you have to hold it down for a few seconds but only when you go through the corresponding menu in the scanner. One touch start button menu. It says to hold the button for x amount of time. Mine would beep but then the screen shuts down which leave me to believe it tries to run on ignition but I have another issue somewhere. I once thought the tpms unit need to be brand new but I can be wrong.
It's why I like your channel Ivan...you have been trained by your father and college to use the scientific method. Well done. A+
Scientific method hasn't failed me yet haha
Banned from the Honda dealership? Just found your channel. What did I miss? That sounds like a fun story 😁
I've experienced this same thing. This is why one of the first thing I do is a hard reset. Disconnect the battery. Connect the terminals together as to drain the capacitors in the modules. Then reconnect the battery. Effectively doing what you did which is disconnecting the module. Sometimes these modules act like Windows software. It glitches. And gets corrupt. Resetting the module like turning off the PC and turning it back on sometimes resolves these kinds of issues. I had a Nissan that had a faulty transmission. It had DTC's in it previous the repair. After replacing the transmission I now had new codes. I did circles for hours. Thinking I did something wrong. But couldn't find evidence that validated the codes. So I did a hard reset. Codes gone. Car is still fixed and on the road. That's how a lot of these newer cars with many many modules are now. They can literally create false issues based on modules just glitching out. And so now you have consider in your diagnostics wether or not these codes are real. Wether or not the symptoms are due to a faulty part or corrupt information. It's crazy. And getting more difficult all the time.
Great comment Edwin. Yup a hard reset works magic sometimes. Dumb computers lol!
Anyone owning a later modern vehicle Needs to have a vintage model as a backup...youre going to need it..
That’s a good idea. That red vintage behind Ivan at the end would be a good one..
I swear down an older model electrical gremlins issue free ride is a must to have as a back up vehicle.
@@018139548 I’m getting closer to completing my 69 beetle restoration , so that will be my backup to my backup when it’s done .
We have a local lock and safe company here that runs a mobile unit. They are the ones I call in this kind of situation. He keeps all the updated programs for automobiles. ;) Like you Ivan, it is something I do not do at this time.
Same here in my area. Skip over the dealer
Imagine that, a specialty business that deals with computer module programming just like meachanics who specialize in diagnosing vehicles. No longer are the days of an all around mechanic or shop. Cars today need a speciasist in transmissions, engines, electrical, security etc. What a complete disaster.
OMG Ivan!!! Dude, buddy, friend!! WOW, just when I thought you knew it all, I just witnessed you learn something NEW!!!
You are the man. You are on your game friend.
I think reprogramming the keys helped, they may have got wet and malfunctioned. You did right with charging fee's and the experience.
@Hack, yea I think there are several good lessons on this one. First, it's electrical and there is software/hardware so sometimes there are electrical issues like with wiring/voltage etc,. sometimes it's also software related where there could be something "corrupted" and there can also be something mechanical such as components/pins etc., needing to be cleaned/disconnected/reseated just as Ivan mentioned at the end.
I also recall a strange oddity occurring one time with one of my old cars and it's key fob. Somehow, being in/near another car and transmitter, a totally different one mind you, my key fob would no longer interact with my car. Nothing got wet, no battery issues etc. I unlocked the car with the key and thankfully it uses an actual key with a resistor to start the car...
But I had to go through the rather painless procedure of re-registering my key fobs and the only difference had been the fact that I was driving this other car and had the key fobs, using them together. Never had anything like that happened before so I intentionally put them together again, pressed the buttons etc., and again my fobs stopped interacting with the car.
These types of jobs on Hondas was always confusing even to us in the dealer with the factory software. Believe it or not holding the key against the button for a while definitely works even with aftermarket scanners. It’s silly but if you hold it long enough it will actually turn on. I couldn’t believe but you know me and I only speak facts from what I’ve seen. They really need to change the way they word this stuff bc it’ll easily irritate the best of us sometimes. Good job tho as always!
A key moment “20:04”. The EEPROM error reported a year or more ago might be the warning that it had a previous issue that cleared itself or gave false signals to the bcm. If this issue surfaces again the keyless access system feeding the bcm should be monitored or isolated before condemning the bcm.
As an ET for 35 years, I have seen EEPROMS that will flip bits and cause many different problems. By reprogramming it, you have fixed it for now, but it will happen again. The EEPROM is bad and the only way to fix it for good is replace it.
EEPROM stands for Electrical Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory; a chip that is able to store code or program that's kept when the board is powered off.
During initializing (start-up or wake-up) it's probably compared with the stored year 2018 of the car's production date in the ECM.
Although the original module seems to have a production date of 17/09/2015, the EEPROM inside will have the year 2018 programmed into it before installation in the car.
It would not surprise me if the EEPROM error indicates that the ECM will only accept a replacement module that's programmed (not produced!) less than a year earlier.
Honda's way of keeping the dealers happy?
Date of module production on the label does NOT mean that the program inside is from that same year. They can produce X amount of the same modules with empty EEPROM's and program them when needed; depending on brand, model, year and other specs.
Keep that in mind when buying on eBay...
Wow. Best thing I got out of this was deciding which one of our 5 vehicles to sell. 3 Toyotas, 1 GM fun car, and a 2018 Honda(HMR) Guess which one got the short straw. Thanks again Ivan.
The Honda motorbike is ok thankfully there quad's at least are still very good at least the 250 is anyway I'm new to these kinds of vehicles so I don't know much about them let's hope Honda won't destroy there small engine stuff.
@@neilmurphy845 I really cannot kick on the Honda vehicle’s, my wife’s has 80k and never had one issue. And also She was QC for a local company that makes a lot of parts for Honda, and they have the most strict specs. In the industry.
@@brianw8963 The older Hondas were generally more reliable and easier to repair up to around 2004.
@@psdaengr911 My main concern is the CVT transmission. Not a fan of those.
Ahhh that was a Honda HRV, already sold, that was fast.
All good technicians take a loss now and then, like you said it's a learning process. It sucks for time spent vs time paid, but sometimes it just comes down to integrity. Sometimes modules just need to be reset, why? We don't know. It just happens. Sometimes we get paid for getting lucky. Keep these videos coming Ivan. Love the process.
It's not really loss. You just have to think of it as school time. But by the end, you come out the other side knowing how to do it well and if you do 2 or 3 of the same cars after that, you'll blaze right through them fast.
@@calholli agree. What a dealership tech would spend to learn in a month or a year Ivan had to/learned in 3 hours. Fast learner I’d say 👍🏼
you get easy jobs, hard jobs, and somewhere in between. it all balances out in the end. winning that customer for life is the real prize.. going to bed every night knowing you will never be broke because there is a steady stream of income is priceless and you did fair, honest work .
with all of the software, firmware, ect, getting to be proprietary we will see this more and more.. just think what electric vehicles will be like. they are already going to electric steering, braking systems.. nightmares !!
multiple processors to run everything. the automatic updates the manufacturers put thru to cars via sattelite, will cause many problems, and that could be what happened to this car.. you think Honda will admit to it? think they will contact customers and say hey, we did some updates to your BCM module, and found out it was corrupted, or incompatible after we did it, so come in, we will reflash your BCM to its original state and your car will start and run again.. NOT HAPPENING!!!!! Alot of the computer systems and programming is done in China, Taiwan ect. do u think they give a rats ass if your car works or not? The stealerships dont even know how the systems work on an intimate level, they just replace parts from a troubleshooting flowchart and hope for the best.. if they cant fix them, they auction them off. I use a still a Garmin Gps independent unit stuck to my windshield and will never own a car with the bullshit infotainment or key in the car sensing system.. if your too lazy to pull a key out of your pocket and stick it in a hole and turn it, you shouldnt be driving. my 2017 caravan has the remote door lock, but if it fails theres a key inside the fob that will let me open and start the van.
Thanks Ivan for walking us through this experience even if the experience was a pain in the ass.
lol yep the manufacturers are money grabbing shitbags.
😂
My pleasure 👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Hey Ivan, I had trouble with copying keys on an Acura in the past, it simply would not let me program more than one key at a time. If I told it to "Make 2 keys" -- it would fail every time. But If I just did it 1 key at a time, it would work great. So try that next time-- only add ONE key and see if it works. You can always go back through it again and copy the second and third keys.
Real life stuff here people!! Man, Ivan, I’m impressed! It’s hard when we get our hands tied behind our backs by the OE and still have to try to fix the car!
You are spot on that their BCM unit has way too many connections - as someone who does board-level repairs to modern electronic equipment I'd immediately suspect bad connections inside. The use of non lead-bearing solder and the push to smaller and smaller components on boards sets things up for mechanical failure. So much for cost reduction at the expense of reliability. Even with a conformal coating on the board, temperature changes along with vibration and stress can create poor solder connections. Just too bad it didn't fail during the warranty period!
Anyway, keep up the great diagnostic work!
If it was me, and I'm not positive but this is my goto method. Connect the obd11 breakout box. cross 1 and 16 and usually the ignition comes on and you are able to program keys. Help desks won't ever tell you to do this. there are locksmith tools that force the ignition on. and all that they do is cross these pins. the tool is about 115.00 plugs in to the obd11 port and has a connector to plug your scan tool into. there is a switch on it that turns on the ignition.
I will try this on the next one 😁
What a trip!
That's so sad how that whole process is even needed in the first place, and the complexity on the scan tool.
The HDS can register the new BCM in one menu, one process, and it takes 10 minutes. The one thing that caught my eye was one of the first prompts on the thinktool during your programming: "Don't release the start button until the ignition is turned on". The first thing the HDS does is force the ignition on and it asks you to hold the ignition for multiple seconds while the HDS does it's thing, and then the car turns on.
As to why the old BCM works again? FM.
I suspect it will return shortly.
By reprogramming the BCM, you unpaired the Remote Start module that was having issues and causing the problem.
The remote start module was the problem from the beginning.
There was a Honda tech in the other video that confirmed that these remote-start modules are known to fail in weird modes like this, causing weird symptoms like the ignition switching on.
Ivan, after watching your video i would like to share my experience with a 2019 Honda ridgeline. Same exact problems. I had the car for days and couldn't recreate the car intermittently turning itself on, i left the remote inside our office well away from the car. I had a test light wired up hanging from the back bumper spliced into the IGN relay control ckt. Eventually i caught it in the act while walking across the shop. I had to end up replacing the Keyless Access Control Module. It was located behind the glove box, and was similar to that bcm. I was Leary because of lack of info, but went through the same thought process you did. Being the only thing that controls those relays it had to be it. This was right before covid and the module was 1700 and special order only as the car at the time was still newish. Sucessfull repair on my part. Keep up the good work. Love your videos
Wowww 1700 dollars for a crappy module?? That's criminal!
So in other words a "no parts required" fix! Again!! It is still amazing to watch your problem solving process, another great outcome for the customer.
One thing I learned in electronics class was "chip creak". A lot of IC's were not mounted directly to boards, but inserted into sockets that were. boards that did not power up prior to pushing down on the IC's mounted in the sockets often did after. The expansion and contraction from heating & cooling of power on/off cycles, the chips would "walk" themselves out of the sockets they rested in.
It was satisfying to have a board power on after pushing the IC's back into their sockets, but it was more satisfying feeling that "crunch" of pushing the IC's back into their sockets. Removing the 5 cables from the old BCM, and putting it back in, could've resolved the problem.
Heck my power window went out. the fuse was not blown, but the act of removing the fuse to check it and putting it back in resolved the problem. Surface oxidization on the metal contacts?
Haven't finished the video yet, Ivan's going outside the box, gotta love it, Wil he succeed? Buckle up, if there's a way, I think he'll find it.
Nevertheless, you saved that customer a lot of money, Ivan. You showed incredible patience trying to program the keys (power on, power off, etc, etc). After part 1, I thought it odd that you didn't go to the BCM connectors and verify the signals and the connectors as you have done so many times in the past. Just figured you did all that off camera. Oh well, all's well that ends well. Great job, great video!
I want to thank you for the extra mile you walk for us.
People like you make a difference in this trade.
i'm glad keith is a friend of yours as the wealth of knowledge from him is extraordinary..what a curve ball fix but so far it is working so shrug was a weird ghost Honda from beginning..well done Ivan..
Fantastic episode. When you were at a seeming impasse due to lack of security credentials, I found myself shouting "Call Keith"! Once you did, his suggestion for the workaround was characteristically brilliant. Final cure of unplugging and re-plugging is good lesson.
When in doubt, reboot. (from experience in the Tech field)
I once had two identical units with identical controllers - both of which were intermittently unhappy. I was able to permanently fix both by simply swapping controllers between the two units.
@@robarnt6 love it 👌
As a software engineer, I'd guess that the reprogramming of the original BCM wrote the new data in a different location than the original. If there was a problem reading data from the original location, the behavior could very well be undefined. When troubleshooting very complex systems, success usually depends on persistence; and you kept trying different approaches until you stumbled across one that worked. It's a hard way to make a living, but I am often forced to do the exact same thing ;-)
Reprogramming the original BCM probably fixed it. You won’t hear from that guy again. Great job.
Too funny FM. When I was working we had to analyze electronic circuits on. Quite often if the card was pulled out and put back it would work. We called it PFM. Pure f magic
Your FM comment reminded me of times in the past working on communications equipment. There were times when everything passed the tests, but the problem persisted, then after days of re-testing the problem came clear and everything worked. We had no clue what the problem was but we had become so frustrated we were glad to mark it down as Black Magic.
I'm betting there was a bit flip in one of the modules. When you tried to install the eBay replacement, you had to flush the old data (EEPROM codes) and replace it. Therefore, when you went to re-install the original part, the Odyssey accepted that information as fresh, thereby clearing the data error/bit flip issue, returning the vehicle to service. I often do this type of reset when I'm flashing cell phones, for one reason or another. It helps to reset the settings for all the radios in the device, making the old data, seem new again.
Nice job on this one Ivan, It WAS a bit of fun! Can't believe those dealerships kicked you out - You are a benefit to any business you assist! They should get over themselves, soon!! 🤔🤨🤣🤣
What a convoluted and detailed programming procedure. I admire your perseverance. I could see the frustration on your facial expressions but you kept your cool. The hours you charged the customer just reinforces what we already have come to know about your ethics. After all that grief your efforts apparently did solve the problem. Oh and a special shout out to Keith Defazio.
Love it. 15 years at Honda the solution to all electrical issues is hard battery reset lol as per honda internal service bulletins. Also when replacing any modules if you do replace ecm/pcm it goes through all the steps usually. I always did that for new ignition keys ect.
I don't recall. Did you check how many keys were programmed ?
Is there a turn-on log?
My suspicion is that there is a FOB somewhere inside or around the car (the old key-under-the-flower-pot trick) that was waking it up.
Good point! Some third party remote start systems us a "hidden key" to get around the security system. By having to reprogram the keys on the original BCM, the defective remote has been shut out. That would explain a lot!!
I work for Honda and had a 2020 or 2021 CRV ( I don't exactly remember, it's been awhile now) that came in with only a few thousand miles with this exact issue. Customer said it would come on randomly. Literally the exact same thing this van was doing. That one was not as much of a head scratcher as it had a DTC stored that basically pointed to BCM replacement. So far, that's the only vehicle to come to our dealer with that issue. Waited almost 2 months for that thing to show up off backorder. Replaced, programmed the keys and it was good to go. Hasn't been back once with a repeat issue. Really enjoyed these videos. I'm not the best at diagnosing stuff, but I try my best to get more comfortable. Just watching your process helps me out.
Keith to the rescue again!👍I hope he is well and enjoying his life! Great vid (as usual), Ivan!
Just a quick thought: The BCM may have gone into a tamper/theft mode because the relays were powered up out of order. For example, the expected order of activation may be ACC, IG1A and IG1B, then IG2. Since they were all activated simultaneously with the test lamp, it wouldn't allow key programming.
I had this problem with my 2017 Acura MDX. It was turning on by itself, and setting off the alarm over and over again. Also, the key fob no longer opens my doors. I actually found a video here on RUclips that told me how to fix the issue. It was the Smart start module. In my Acura, this was located behind the glove box, which had to be taken out to get to it. It had to be opened and a certain component needed to be cleaned with Alcohol. I followed the instruction on the video, and I have not had the problem since. I will post the link to that video next.
Hey Ivan!
I know I'm late to this party but I'm a big fan.
So, dunno if anyone else caught this but you kept letting go of the START/STOP button.
It takes a few seconds for the scantool to take control of the immobilizer system.
Next go round, use the remote to press the button and hold until the ignition comes on.
Cheers!!
Enjoy watching this even though it was a weird FIXED,as you said education is never been free,i totally agree,good job Ivan.
Support from Malaysia
I recently had one of these in my shop/ same issue. Unplugged it and waited for a while.. plugged it back in.. the issue remained. Replaced BCM. Issue resolved. Thank you for your efforts bro 😎
You are the Arch Angel of Diagnostics!!!
Thank you for teaching me to never buy any vehicle made after 1972.
😅
I love Ivan's approach and teaching methods.....I've learned so much since finding his youtube channel :)
This was/is a crazy case study. The fix was almost as mysterious as the symptom. And for the record, this is technically another No Parts Required repair! King Ivan the NPR GREAT!
He put the original BCM back in and repogragramed all system to talk to each other. The van would crank to start with it may still have the same issue as before time will tell as it was intermediate to begin with.
Every vehicle has different options and and you just have to check out all features in depth. I have mastered an easy vehicle 05 Saturn. And still learning and 16 Cruze. Thanks Ivan. I’ve learned a lot and still learning.
Wow, seems like Honda has really gone down hill in reliability. Great diagnosis 👍
From a computer guy's point of view: yes, reseating components sometimes scares away the ghosts in your electronics. The other way to scare them off reliably is to add 400V. You can see them scurry away in a puff of magic ghost smoke :D
Yes, reinstall drivers ! Problem fixed.
Was waiting on a frosty Sunday morning for this . Thanks . I hope that you realize how many of us root for you on these nightmares .
Not just a diagnostician, but a car hacker as well, Great work Ivan, we need more of these workaround ! :-)
Good effort .. Impressive. There is always a personal cost for education. I have to eat time occasionally myself doing computer repairs. Sometimes electronics hold a static charge until everything is unplugged from it and forced to die and then resurrected ... lol..
For industrial PCs there is a similar failure mode with dirty contacts going intermittent, basically dirty and oxidized contacts. The contact issue is so common that before even troubleshooting the computer, I take all the boards out, inspect and clean up the mother board connectors (Deoxit D5 spray, unless really dirty than Deoxit D100 spray and/or D100 with needle applicator. If contacts are gold I use G100L (ProGold) needle applicator, after spray cleaning connector with D5 spray.) I then use wipes to clean and condition the edge connectors (two step if gold D5 spray, or D100, then G100L) . I reassemble the computer and it usually will boot and run with no problem. Then I run my system hardware checks, and if the PS is very old I will inspect and replace if necessary. I then do all of the "standard" software testing checks.
So, I think the approach to the problem in the video might have some preliminary steps. The first is to inspect, clean and condition all the module (BCM) connector contacts. Then if the problem persists, I would either reprogram the module with the latest firmware release and test again, or I would start my troubleshoot as you have shown. So the priority would be cleaning and conditioning contacts, verify and/or program latest firmware, then troubleshooting as normal.
I see in the documents that it only works on VW beetle 2006-2010. I have used on bmw s and VWs. I know crossing the pins has worked on other cars for me , just don't recall which ones. I usually look at a diagram first. Pin one is commonly a comm line. Comm lines are very resilient. Grounding or applying B+ doesn't ever seem to damage anything. I have grounded and powered can lines to explore different testing methods and they always seem to return to normal. Conclusion, I am probably wrong about this working on your honda. But this is something to keep in mind when programming keys in the future. Thanks Ivan .
I think there’s only one word to describe you the wizard/magician brilliantly done 👍👍👍👍
This is why I work on only classic cars. My customers, at times are not so cooperative. I think you said it too.. "Keep your old cars running".. I drive a 42 year old truck. Thanks Ivan!
If everyone was as genuine and honest as you the world would be a much better place - thankyou Ivan for being true
WOW! What an hellish procedure Honda came up with! Very clever bypass of the conundrum :-)
If the BCM is OK now, either it was a soft problem and the reprogramming solved it or, like you said, some spooky contact in the bundle (Halloween approaching?).
As for the replacement BCM, could it be that, being a unit intended for China, it wouldn't speak to, or recognize properly, the rest of the modules? Or was it simply just bad? Very crazy stuff!
Too many Honda repair/replacement procedures assume that a system that is broken is being rewound on the factory floor and has no other issues. All failure modes and conditions are not considered. Like a hybrid that needs a 12V battery charged to start and that is charged by the EV battery, which is drained flat. A recent EV, has an electric hood release, a 12V battery under that hood, and no external mechanical bypass for the hood lock or jump connector. A dead battery locks you out. Teslas have electric door releases and mechanical releases that are difficult to access for children and older passengers unfamiliar with the vehicle.
@@psdaengr911 Yep, that is very true. This increasing complexity in cars, is causing more problems than it solves, but the EVs are on a completely new level, bordering the ridiculous (the other day, the passengers on an electric ferry had to be rescued by the Coast Guard, because the batteries went dead in the middle of the river).
@@psdaengr911 my 2005 Porsche is the same way.
I've been watching you for over 2 years. You are an honest man. In my younger years I was an electronic tech repairing home and car audio. Occasionally I would get a unit that should have taken 1.5 hrs to repair, but for reasons unknown it took longer. I would charge the customer a reasonable price. Keep up the great schooling you give all of us who watch your channel.
good job .got to say you put a really lot effort .you are really decade tech that love his job
Really enjoyed watching the video(s). Good news, i hope it stays fixed! I have had good luck un-plugging modules leave it set for a few hours and re-connecting! That was cool how you figured out how to powerup the replacement BCM.
I monitors when you press the start button . It goes acc then ign . When you were turning them all on at once I think the bcm saw that and got confused 🤔🤔. You would need a cheap key programmer to allow you to turn the ign on without a key programed to it . The scanners will not turn on the ignition with no key or no key programed to it . I loved how you bypassed and turned on the ign . Loved it
Wow, what a pain in the hoo ha. I commend your perseverance and honesty Ivan. You post it, I watch it and try to learn. Keep up the great work.
I hate to hate on the car dealerships and their service, they're not evil aliens, just regular apes like the rest of us. And I think I can appreciate the need for proprietary programming codes that protect a car owner's security from auto theft. (and I bet if anyone at the Honda dealership where you're banned looks at this video they're gonna call you a hacker for your genius bypass of their protocols). But the proprietary interests of the car owner must be supreme. He should have total access to any service info or security codes pertaining to his car. He paid the money and has legal title and should receive free tech support when changing perishable components. This constant extortion of money from car owners and independent techs by the manufacturers for service info and programming codes outside the dealership network must stop! Videos like yours help me understand where support for the Right To Repair movement is coming from. Keep it up.
THIS is a excellent video IVAN. you were able to show how to bypass the computer to allow the scanner to talk to the system.That allowed you to attempt a replacement.The scanner did pick up AN OLD ISSUE 1 year ago,means to me the car THIS UNIT may have had an issue and the car was scrapped or the unit replaced and at the high cost- the owner kept his old unit{THIS ONE} and decided to RE-COUP some money and sell it on ebay???BUT that's just my thought process,After all it's electronics it's not like selling MING DYNASTY pottery where if the pot was broken in the past you could super glue it back together and the buyer WOULDN'T"T NOTICE.haha Your intuition on a bad unit sounds correct.thanks
Another great case study. Just out of interest which car got you banned from your local Honda dealer?
Here's the one that got him banned.... Scummy Honda dealer wouldn't warranty battery ruclips.net/video/fAlozTLyIVY/видео.html
Ivan your tenacity is unreal and commendable. Many would have given up after the replacement BCM would not program, but you kept on digging for an answer. Now, since you don't know what the root cause was; somewhere in the future you are going to get a call and he is going to say it is doing it again. EEPROM issue is going to raise it's ugly head again.
Reminds me of when I tried replacing my key FOB with a used eBay one. My original fob would only work ~1ft away from the car. Tried programming the new key, got the system stuck in learning mode. New key would not register. Realized my original key was no longer registered. Went to reregister it and bam my original FOB started working… now it can reliably unlock my car from ~10ft away and I have no idea why, other than messing with the keyless entry module must have fixed it. Ended up returning the eBay key LOL
Magic, Well The Bcm might Have
Just needed some recalibration or programming in my assumption..
Maybe that could explain why The customer Compliant was Fixed!..
Good one ivan!🤞🏻
The bypass test to illuminate the cluster was a cool one😁
Ivan my man you are a dedicated master Auto Technician/Program Engineer you are awesome my man, you rock!
My van does this. Caught the dash and radio on without the key anywhere near the van. I guess I'll be checking the plugs on my BCM.
that Eeprom error you saw is probably the culprit here. It might have fixed itself through the programming but it will likely happen again if that eeprom is corrupted. i've come across that before on other equipment...eeprom errors might go away but they only lie dormant waiting to resurface
Ivan, I agree that you have to eat your time on occasion when you encounter a situation like this and chalk it up to experience. And these type experiences will probably be on the increase as I get the impression that the 'programming' is designed to maintain the work flow at the dealerships. Planned intricacy if you will.
Just finished both parts. That was amazing hot-wiring the modules to force programming 👍🏻 Worrying the problem has disappeared I suspect you'll see that again at some point! I've been looking at the newer CR-Vs here in the UK, those have the same instrument cluster as that Odyssey so probably the same spicy Mexican modules 😂 I think I'll stick with older cars for the moment with plenty of used spares available.
Yep, sticking with older cars is the way to go. The future for these new fangled fractionalized electronic gizmo cars is bleak indeed.
Mucho long ago I worked at a Radio Shack, fixing stuff customers brought in. It was a sweet gig, as Radio Shack had really good service manuals and you would either go to their transistor wall and grab a similar transistor, or write a little postcard to RS Central and in two days you would get back the correct part.
One day a radio came in and it wouldn't work from the C-cells in the back. A little poking with a voltmeter showed that one of the battery contacts which was clean and chrome-plated and firmly riveted in place, there was no continuity between the spring and the attached wire! It looked physically perfect and tight, but no go. Craziest no-continuity situation I ever saw.
I absolutely HATE IT when programable electronics behave this way! I am very glad that you learned from this hell of a problem. Other Hondas that get into this may
Be easier to diagnose and fix now. When functionality and options are intertwined this way, no one wins. Does Honda want to sell more test equipment and certifcations?!!
I've been looking forward to this video.
I remember years ago I had a 1985 Mitsubishi Galant - a very advanced car for it's time. It was only about 3 years old when I was driving it one day and all the dash warning lights came on, no matter what i tried I could not get them to go off. Even tried disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it. I phoned up the dealer and spoke to one of the techs there and he advised me to reach under the dash and unplug the main ECU whilst battery power was still connected to the car, and then plug it back in again. Hey presto, everything went back to normal. It was a fault they had seen before, and had learned by chance how to resolve it. I kept the car for a further 4 years and it never done it again. Certainly some magic there! But in the case of your Honda, I wonder if some code stored in one of the emproms was corrupted, and by you reprogramming a few bits you overwrote the dodgy bit of code? Because like you, I struggle to see how a dodgy connector could cause the car to power up those relays. Very interesting case.
Ivan, you did a video of an Impala with an ABS light that was on. You unplugged it, plugged it back in and it was fixed! I had a 2001 Cavalier that had a similar problem. The ABS light would randomly come on. It would go out and then ABS was fine. It had what looked like the same connector as in the video you did. I unplugged mine, plugged it in again and then the ABS never came on again. NPR! That Impala video was the one that got me watching all of your videos!
Maybe sometimes the communication is jacked up between the modules and unplugging them reestablishes the communication. Hopefully the Honda lasts as long as my Cavalier did... 400,000 miles!
I had a very similar problem in a Honda. Loving the fix, my new Subaru 2010 model
Hi Ivan,
Thanks for taking us through that exhausting programming procedure. Guess a Honda will not be in my future, but most likely the manufactures will try to include more functions into fewer modules. You and your family stay safe.
We need to go back to simpler times! to many touchy electronics, and parts you wont be able to get when the vehicles are older. Yeah I know, E.V's are now here! lol !!
I just had also the same problem in a 19 Honda ridge line with the addition of the alarm randomly going off
Had to replace the keyless access/ TPMS the ignition was completely dead after replacement
But I found in the thinktool pros that the push start module had a section to turn on ignition and it worked after that it even programmed everything including the keys
Unbelievable tool thanks for recommendation (just purchased it as you rate it so high)
Hopefully this helps if that Honda comes back or if another car has the problem
how funny is that. Up to now the car was turning itself ON, but now Ivan is searching for a way to turn the car ON, as now the keys have to be programmed and the Comp is not working without the key ON. This stuff with the going around the security protocol, is cool. But only in this case. Thanks Ivan.
I could sense the frustration through the screen. Fingers crossed it's "fixed."
This was a challenge, no doubt about that. As I mentioned in the past if you learn something new, then time is not wasted. You can either pay money & go to a formal class, or learn on the job. As long as the learning on the job does not cost you in the form of loss of or bad reputation, then you are on top.
I hope the owner has no problems moving forward.
"I'm sure there is a lot more to come" - truer words were never spoken! I'm thinking you may have cycled some internal logic stuff that fixed the problem - it may not have been a connection. Kinda like removing and reinstalling software. But if it was a connection thing, then this illustrates how some systems defy logic - they are just too complex to master. A third possibility is Artificial Intelligence. I was thinking when you were obeying those commands over and over to turn the ignition on and then off so many times - the BCM was laughing. After laughing long enough, it was worn down and gave in. If it had chosen to communicate with you, and if it did not have pride, it would have said "You are a worthy opponent".
NPR and Pure FM
Whaaat?
Great story and video!!
I worked on copiers for 41 years. As time went along, more and more modules. De-ox is your friend. Fixed many a problems this way.
I was shocked when a tech pulled apart our modern color printer at work and saw all the small plastic parts. Stupidly complex.
I have similar experience. At work, among other things< i also fix ticketing equipment on buses. Due to environment (frequent temperature changes whenever door opens and closes) there is a chance of condensation forming on connectors, that over times creates a thin layer of oxidation. So, before i start diagnosis little squirt of contact cleaner, and in some 40-50% of cases diagnosis is "no faults fou8nd"
Ivan, If I ever get stuck in space on the shuttle I want to make sure that you and Keith are up there with me!
Great video! That Ignition on bypass trick with a test light is a genius idea. Learned something new today, thanks Ivan!
This is one of the most interesting video you have done. Very well done.
This is a issue that has effected a lot of people and seems to be present on 2015-2019 Honda's, just about every model. Here are a few of the many examples.
6 Months Ago;
"Just imagine your vehicle turning on by itself all the time and draining the battery. This last October, My 2018 Honda CRV Ex was completely dead and would not turn on. Battery was dead. Jumped it, charged it up, same thing happened the next day.
My civic has the almost exact same problem. They say faulty bcm and I have been going through the same loops as you waiting for the new part. Months of waiting and them pushing the date back further, no amount of case or case managers or “district managers” is getting me my car back any faster. I’m done with honda after this.
My part came in about 4 weeks ago. Honda paid half and I was out $400. It's so nice for it to be working again. Had no problems since.
This same thing is happening to me with a 2017 CRV touring. It’s new to me, just bought it barely six weeks ago."
The problem is nobody knows why Honda has so many bad BCMs. The normal things, water intrusion, impacts, etc. are a given. Shorts has also been given as a possible cause. I would guess that a short on one of more of the nearly 1,000 wires connecting to the BCM in these cars could permanently damage the BCM. We likely will never know.
Looks like others have had to go to Dealers multiple times, and have long waits to get this issue diagnosed. You did it far more quickly, and with a lot less trouble for the owner.
Again, extremely interesting, and very well done Ivan.
Omegaman
Not many people as brilliant as Ivan ! wish we all could be! maybe made in Mexico also has something to do with Honda's problems. Probably be worse when these cars get older.
@@garyalford9394 Yes, I think made in Mexico (most are) or China (the only two places they are made), could have something to do with it. I would like to say though, this could be either a design flaw, or a manufacturing issue (whichever one, it's repeatable), or it could be some outside force, such as moisture, or maybe a short on one of the outputs from the BCM, also repeatable. We may never know for sure.
You should invest in the autel IM508 or IM608 Professional key programming tool. It will pull security info without any keys. I had someone lose all keys to a 2008 nissan maxima and I made keys and programmed them. Good video.
Ivan, this stuff is getting sort of crazy. Really appreciate you taking us through it all. I'd say the next time you visit your buddy dinner is on you. Thanks for Sharing!