I was saved in1985. Moved to Toronto in 1986. I was invited to attend the Toronto blessing services. The moment I walked in I discerned (I didn't even know what discernment was at the time) but I knew in my 'guts' that this was not of God. I saw people fall over, bark like dogs, hysterical laughter!! I turned and left. Now, after walking with the Lord for nearly 40 years I know how to discern false from true. But the biggest lesson is discerning between truth and half truths! This is what many believers fail to discern. The old serpent is using the same tactic from the Garden, " did God really say..." Watch out for half truths because they are the hardest ones to detect.
In Australia during the late 1980s, Evangelical Anglicans from Sydney were so concerned about Wimber's influence that they wrote a book called "Signs and Wonders and Evangelicals", which offered a Biblical refutation of many of Wimber's teachings and practices.
Thats good to know also. Andrew Strom refuted the kundalini in the church also after separating from the KC prophets.0the KC prophets never accepted the rebuke from Ernie Gruen. They just continued in their error. We need God's help to unravel the mess. Gulliksen's original concept certainly got messed up.
which teachings did they refute. many cessationists dont believe the supernatural gifts are for today but i cant get that from scripture.... Wimber separated himself from the kansas city prophets and their dominion theology (latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation NAR) One of his weaknesses was that he didnt teach repentance but i dont hear any churches teaching that today..
From the stage, Wimber held up a bible and said: "The Holy Spirit is not in this Book". I was there and witnessed his deliberate hype of "the stuff" (signs/wonders) as he called it while devaluing Holy Scripture. So many faiths were shipwrecked by this man. Thank you Lord for saving me from this evil. Sola scriptura (Scripture alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), and soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone).
I wish people spread around this discernment more years ago. I was led by my parents into a church where the elders discouraged Bible study IN THE MEN'S BIBLE STUDY! They just wanted to pray in tongues to worship music until the herky-jerks started. When I'd bring it up to my parents, they would always have their excuses, but even as a teenager, before I was born-again, I remembers saying that this stuff was demonic. Now after 24 years in the Lord, I'll never give another moment of my time to a charismatic church. Continuationist yes, but charismatic NO! You may as well join a coven.
@@Angelica._.officalll The context was, they were charismatic, and thought the Bible was for the uninitiated, while real Christians only talked about their dreams and visions.
I simply don’t believe that he said that. He had a very high view of Scripture but believed that Scripture itself leads us to believing in the present day gifts of the Spirit. He revered the Word of God and was humble enough to admit from the platform if he ever misspoke something doctrinally. He also surrounded himself with good solid evangelical theological minds like Wayne Grudem, Jack Deere, and Don Williams.
This is not accurate from my Third Wave Wimber-Wagner experience.(I’m not knocking it. It was exciting stuff. I believe in true power evangelism- not the Bethel/Todd White examples.) I last heard Wagner speak in 1999. Wimber had just passed away. Wagner went off the rails thereafter.
@@kenfollis5558 here’s a clip where John’s widow Carol very forthrightly describes here how he felt about these theological aberrations. ruclips.net/user/shortsWRlN-A5mZpg?si=2Bf19gMcO6Mf3vbT
Wimber was not Kingdom Now and his greatest error was accepting Paul Cain and Bob Jones. He regretted that mistake. This was not an accurate portrayal of the John Wimber I knew. You should interview Jack Deere and Sam Storms they would give you a different perspective. Painting with too broad a brush with this video.
. Paul cain was a child prodigee of hranham and they were into dominion theology as a result. Wimber took them under his wing for a short time before chucking them out.. Wimber recanted from the now and now of the kingdom before jesus returns. Wimber only believed in the now and not yet of the kingdom. Vineyard churches today are still allergic to dominion theology as a result..
I've read Wimber's books and theology, and this video is a poor refutation of him. He wrote at length about many of the issues discussed here, and you haven't represented them well here, nor have you actually delved into his teachings apparently. He wrote and taught at length, and theologians such as John Stott even wrote a chapter in a book about Wimber with an actual academic discussion of Wimber's theology. Whereas this video just makes vague references to what he taught. Wimber explained clearly why he rejected the Kansas city prophets and their gifts, and wrote publicly to all his churches when he heard of Bob Jones' sexual sin. This video is poorly researched and a smear. I recommend you remove it and come back with a proper refute of his actual teachings, if you disagree with them
A great starting point would be Wimber's 1997 Christianity Today interview / article. He details how he regrets getting involved with the Kansas City Prophets and why he did in the first place. He emphasises character over gifts. On emotions and manifestations he references Jonathan Edwards books and topics on the matter. I have read these works (Religious affections and essay on revival in New England, + some other essays) and have yet to hear anyone challenge Edward's premise on this topic!
"I loved the gifts the prophets exercised; I didn't like the package. The package involved the presupposition that a gift in itself authenticates you. I don't care if you're the finest communicator around, the finest expositor, the most brilliant theologue, if you can't come under the church, if you can't commit yourself to a board, if you can't commit yourself to the leadership of others, if you can't commit yourself to collegiality and relationship, if you can't be inspected as well as teach, I don't want to play" John Wimber on Kansas City Prophets. The wider church largely ignored this, which caused the damage ihop continued to cause, not John Wimber
@@michaelosborne3414Wimber also taught that one could manifest spiritual gifts without a high level of sanctification or even saving faith. He got the latter view from classic Lutheran theology from reading James Kallas.
Michael, to learn anything about biblical, suppositional apologetics, is to comprehend Paul's command to TEST everything with scripture. No one should take my word for it, but I assert Mr. Wimber (a wandering star) exhibited all manner of confused, self-contradicting, doctrine and theology. I lived through much of it. My takeaway, by God's grace alone, was and is to know that the GROUND ZERO of ALL false teaching - always presents ANOTHER GOSPEL, based on works. The Gospel PLUS. In Wimber's case: DOING whatever the XYZ of signs/wonders are to prove you are a true or mature christian. The sinful, self-righteousness of those who IMPROVISE on God's Word and manipulate the flock to think they are "subpar" believers because they don't raise their arms in worship, speak gibberish, or worse - take the Lord's Name in Vain by claiming God told THEM to say XYZ to the flock, in "authority" . . .is the height of sin in the visible church. John Wimber was a good, professional musician and composer. And a very affable person. Likable, friendly, and (I think?) honest (the interactions I had with him, at least.) He profited from royalties from his songs. No crime in that at all. BUT BUT, the harm done is the bad theology of his songs. No different than Hillsong or any other musical business which usually goes un-analyzed. Add to that his expansion of his opinions was his assertion the Holy Spirit: "told him things" or "did xyz" or Wimber's visions . . . all setting up for what today we know is the New Apostolic Reformation mess. I advise christians to READ books - especially books that do not agree with you and that have footnotes. Scripture teaches christians to "judge rightly" and to "judge those inside the church" . . THAT right there is a lot to do.
@cynthiarobinsmith3712 I agree with testing everything with scripture, which is precisely why I disagree with this video. It doesn't test Wimber's fruit or teaching against scripture, but rather looks and people associations, under the same old 'NAR' label and talking in vague and general terms about church movements that the vineyard was associated with. I agree with testing by scripture, and as I said, there are books and hundreds of hours of tapes and videos of John Wimber himself teaching on scripture, so a critique of his ministry should instead scrutinise these as a basis for a discussion over an open scripture
Another thing you should look into is about why John left Calvary Chapel. And that involves a young man named Lonnie Frisbee and Mother's Day 1980. Check into that. John was not into signs and wonders before that. And even what happened that day in 1980 bothered him and he didn't like it, until a couple of other things happened after that. John Ruttkay, Lonnie's good friend, shares about it on his YT channel, "Jesus Movement 2.0" - the video title is Lonnie Frisbee Unscripted. I recommend you check that out and even check out the three volume biography on Lonnie. You will learn more about Wimber in those books. As it is, you are off base in this video. I hope you choose to look into all of this and make corrections. I brought up some of these issues after one of your previous posts on Wimber. You lose credibility when you are inaccurate in your videos. Makes me question other things you have posted. But mainly, I appreciate you very much for the work you do.
I googled kingdom now theology and it sounds really dangerous and it also said it was part of dominionism. It also said that God is looking for people to help him ....I don't even remember for what. God is looking for people to help him?????? They make God sound like someone who is goingbto post a help wanted add, just hoping someone will apply for the job.
Wimber was not into dominion theology.. he was into the now and not yet. He parted ways with the kansas city prophets. Vineyard churches today are anti dominion theology for this very reason..
. It is the belief that jesus kingdom is partially here thro thos who make him Lord and partially means that some people get healed and some dont. The now and now of the kingdom is dominion theology, that we can completely bring heaven to earth now BEFORE Jesus returns. Ruling over everyone thro a 7 mountain mandate. It used to be called latter rain or manifest sons of God. Todays name for it is the new apostolic reformation. Churches like bill johnsons bethel are into this..
@@JuliexSteadman Thanks for the explanation! I haven't heard of a lot of these guys and what they teach except for through this channel. I was in the Branham group for 28 years and never got involved in all this other stuff. Seems like Wimber was really popular, some people like him, some don't. I don't even know if I've ever heard of him before.
@lesliewells-ig5dl i heard him speak back in the day. He was into thecsupernatural and i cant get how people can believe that the gifts have gone away. Wimbers weakness was that he didnt really teach repentance. But then today most churches dont and then most cessationists are calvinistic. Its beyond me how anyone believes in calvins interpretation of scripture.. We have the letters of the early church fathers and how they interpreted scrupture (ad70-300) before assimilation into rome. David bercot is good on this... see his books and you tube videos.. what did the early church fathers teach about salvation.. you tube
You say "John wimbers kingdom now theology has influenced ihop to bethel church." This is just not true. William branham thro paul cain and bob jones has influenced ihop and NAR. Half of bill johnsons church left in the 1990s because he so got into william branhams teachings. Bill johnson didnt have anything to do with wimber. Yes Wimber initially embraced the kansas city prophets but he chucked them out and had no more to do with them i believe. Wimbers theology was now and not yet, the same as ladd, not dominion or kingdom now. He parted ways with Wagner because he didnt agree with him..
This is good to know. I have a friend i cant talk to who was in the vineyard and saw nothing wrong with Johnson or Graham Cooke. Randy Clark was the culprit who reintroduced these spirits into vineyard churches. Bill Johnson i regard as the most satanic teacher in a church today.
“In 1996, Bill Johnson came as the new senior pastor (Bethel AG) under one stipulation, that the church’s message would always be about revival. Johnson’s view of revival was strongly influenced by his attendance at a John Wimber signs and wonders conference in 1987.”
This is not accurate. Ihop and paul cain got their teachings from william branham. John wimber kicked out the kansas city prophets because he said everyone gets to move in the gifts, not just super apostles and prophets. Today vineyard are opposed to NAR because they got bitten by them. I think wimber backed off of dominion theology as well Today bethel /nar have taken over wimbers founding church annaheim vineyard.
Sad. Keith Green came from Anaheim. The Bible certainly states that Johnson will face judgment. Its the amount of people influenced by him thats a concern. Many of his doctrines and practices were intentionally floated into vineyard churches.
This video contains quite a bit of information that's inaccurate and misleading. Sacramental Charismatic has posted a helpful rebuttal which I'll link below. Viewers, don't forget to check your sources ruclips.net/video/zkB-HkS0EQ0/видео.html
Wimber taught that believers could experience aspects of the kingdom in the present, which, as the video stated, was rooted in the kingdom now theology. (But yes, the bigger mess was created from his foundation)
. No - wimber was the now and not yet of the kingdom which is what Ladd taught who ironically was a cessationist. Dominion is the now and now of the kingdom.. wimber i think did embrace that initially but backed off it when he threw out the kansas city prophets as he said everyone gets to move in the gifts.. Wimber separated from wagner because he didnt agree with him..
@@LeavingtheMessagenot sincere. Wimber was a biblically sound and a godly man who God used powerfully all over the world. Your videos are quite slanted and dishonest most of the time.
@@matthewb252ableI agree. I was personally involved with the Vineyard back in the 80’s and 90’s. Wimber was originally a Baptist who witnessed the dramatic healing of his son which challenged his Baptist theology. There were definitely ‘flakes’ in the vineyard movement and many of us were not into the Toronto Blessing - including John Wimber who asked the ‘Airport’ site to separate from the Vineyard. I do think some of your teaching is biased and this therefore makes me suspicious of ‘all’ of it.
..wimber came away from the kansas city prophets and dominion theology. He threw the kansas city prophets out. Today vineyard is allergic to NAR and dominion theology as a result. Todd bentley who is pictured was completely off in 2008 with his serpent seed theology and praying to angels but it was bethel and the NAR who endorsed him. Wimber wasnt alive when that happened. Betel NAR have recently taken over wimbers flag ship church in annaheim by deceit.. My husband attends a vineyard church in feltham uk and has done vineyard theology training.. No way do they teach dominion theology.. They teach the now and not yet which is right. The now and now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns is something different.. that is dominion..
You are not accurate about many things in this video. Mike Bickle and the KC prophets were already in place in KC at Kansas City Fellowship. When Gruen brought accusations against Mike and the KC prophets, John Wimber was brought in to assess the situation and make recommendations. John recommended KCF move away from songs that were more militaristic (ironic, that you basically said the opposite in this video). Also, John said prophets should not prophecy about babies or marriages - saying so and so will have a baby or saying this person will marry that person. That was his input - he wasn't a leader over Mike but brought in as an outside to look at the situation. At that time the Vineyard was not into the prophetic and John was not a mentor to Bickle. But because of their relationship, John and Mike talked about bringing the "strengths" of their two ministries together. The Vineyard was known for their worship and serving others and KCF was known for the prophetic and intercession. This is in the early 1990's, -way before IHOP-KC started. Because of this joining together, KCF became part of the Vineyard and was renamed Metro Vineyard Fellowship. Not too long afterward, other leaders in the Vineyard expressed not liking the prophetic and so, the Vineyard never embraced the prophetic. Because of that Bickle and the MVF leaders eventually decided to leave the Vineyard and the name of the church was changed to Metro Christian Fellowship. It was this way for awhile BEFORE IHOP started. I was there when all of this transpired.
@@LeavingtheMessage well i hope you are going to document things accurately as many people have been saying here before you get to your conclusions about the results.. THIS IS VERY INACURATE SO FAR - LOADS OF PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU SO.. I hope you are going to address that. God doesnt take too kindly to slander...
Believing that the supernatural gifts are for today is separate from dominion theology... Clifford hill in the Uk whose church was one of the livest ive attended in 1981 as a new christian. In the 1990s he was asked to do the forward to the kansas city prophets book, Some said it thundered to introduce them to the uk. Clifford hill discerned an evil spirit operating among them especially bob jones. They refused to repent, clifford hill went public in his magazine prophecy today back in the 1990's. Clifford hill was friends with wimber at the time and warned him but he didnt listen..
In the current videos for the Alpha Course they endorse John Wimber. Sadly, along with the good of the Gospel in it Alpha’s Holy Spirit weekend lead me into the NAR
They don’t teach Christian Nationalism but they now teach ecumenism and the group that came from HTB to teach at the Holy Spirit weekend had been to the Toronto Blessing which made my family and myself open to the NAR.
@@sacredrose5477There will always be levels of fellowship within the Body of Christ, as people disagree. Ecumenism is a good thing when the basics of the Christian faith are acknowledged. C.S. Lewis, Billy Graham, etc are some examples of how that can be done. The Vineyard theologian, Don Williams, put a booklet on the revival at Toronto. The bottom line is that what impacts the soul, in terms of the Holy Spirit, can impact the body - e.g. tears, laughing, shaking, etc. Christian Platonic dualism results when things get too cerebral. We are not Vulcans.
This video is really inaccurate on a number of levels. I am all for well-researched, accurate critiques. This is not it. There is a great deal of conflation, misunderstanding of terms, and just plain error. I refrain from calling it "falsehood" simply because I do not think the creator is "trying" to misrepresent Wimber. Nevertheless, that is the end effect. So where is the information wrong? Wimber was not "Kingdom Now." The creator doesn't really seem understand what "Kingdom Now" means, and has mistaken Wimber's emphasis on the "Kingdom of God" and his "Kingdom Theology" for adherence to the "Kingdom Now" position. "Kingdom Now," also known as Dominionism, is a theological movement that basically advocates theocracy. It believes in bringing the heavenly rule of God's Kingdom here on earth "now," and it teaches that the Second Coming will be predicated by the complete and total rule of Christ on earth before He arrives. Indeed, that a condition of Christ's return is the triumph of the church and its teachings over all of the secular cultures and governments of the world. This is NOT what Wimber believed. Sometimes his teaching has been termed "Kingdom Theology," but this is much different than "Kingdom Now" theology. Kingdom Theology teaches what theologian George E. Ladd called the "already but not yet" dynamic of God's kingdom: that God's rule has been inaugurated with Christ's coming (particularly His death and resurrection, and the outpouring of the Spirit), but that - as Hebrews 2 tells us - "we do not yet see all things subject to Jesus." Kingdom Theology teaches that there is therefore an ongoing struggle and conflict between God's Kingdom and the powers of darkness presiding over the systems of this world, and that the church is called to press into these dark places and triumph victoriously by bringing the Kingdom to bear. But unlike "Kingdom Now" teaching, "Kingdom Theology" fully recognizes that this conflict will go on until Jesus returns. "Kingdom Theology" also teaches that manifestations of the Kingdom of God are defined for us in the ministry of Jesus and the ministry of the church as presented in the Book of Acts - the preaching of the Gospel with Signs and Wonders, including the healing of the sick and casting out demons, as acts of God's mercy and compassion ("setting the captives free") as well as providing verification of the Gospel message. Wimber had nothing to do -- at all -- with the emergence of the NAR. This was Peter C. Wagner's theological innovation, and Wimber did not see eye to eye with Wagner on many aspects of his emerging NAR theology. He did not advocate for it in even a qualified way. I would also state that I am not sure Wagner himself would have endorsed what the NAR has become in our day. He coined a phrase and an idea that others ran with. To say that Wimber was a founder of the NAR is just wrong. Wimber was on faculty with Wagner at Fuller Theological Seminar, and Wagner does credit Wimber's direct influence on him. But the claim that the NAR is in any way a representation of Wimber's theology is just good, old-fashioned "guilt by association", and it is plain wrong. Wimber likewise launched an investigation into Mike Bickle's leadership at the Vineyard church Bickle pastored. The investigation was based on concerns raised in a 200-page whitepaper published by Ernie Gruen (another Charismatic leader from Bickle's area). Gruen's most serious accusations were found to be erroneous and/or exaggerated. The few points in which Gruen's investigation was deemed accurate were addressed with confession and repentance from Bickle (these items had to do with manifestations of spiritual pride that resulted in some poor leadership decisions). Gruen and Bickle eventually reconciled and many of the men Gruen enlisted to help create the whitepaper later confessed to having been pressured by Gruen to say things they knew to be false or blown out of proportion. Likewise, Wimber was deeply concerned about various aspects of the Toronto Blessing - associated with the Toronto Airport Vineyard. These concerns resulted in Wimber asking the Toronto Airport Vineyard to disaffiliate from the Vineyard, which they did. We could go on - and we could do so at great length - about other errors and misrepresentations. But this should be more than enough to show that the creator really is operating from a place of bias, and even ignorance, in his critiques. At best, he is not well-informed enough to be speaking on these matters. At worst, he is just being plain dishonest.
Matthew 23:10-12 KJ21 Neither be ye called masters, for One is your Master, even Christ. [11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. [12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased, and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Two other titles precede "master" I will leave off for brevity . Various - isms get off on their chieftans ignoring verses like the above warning about hero devotion ? Per the Lord's Prayer for disciples Yes thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven but no sinning masters are even in heaven .
Well done. I wondered when you would get to Paul Cain and his connection to Branham. Wimber did part ways with Toronto Blessing (Clark and Arnott) but had fully promoted the KCP (Bickle, Jones, Cain, Jackson, Joyner, Deere etc) until then. My church growing up was all about Wimber and Joyner. Our dear pastor loved them. They jumped on board the Laughing Revival (making pilgrimage to Lakeland FL) and rode that wave to Toronto and back to Florida (Pensacola Outpouring). Then came Bethel’s Bill Johnson in CA and Todd Bentley, coincidentally back in Florida (Lakeland Revival) until Bentley’s adulterous affair. They chased the anointing to Bethel until our dear pastor died and the replacement had his own affair and left the church for dead. (PS. Do a show on Lonnie Frisbee)
I think it is an unfair critique tho because wimber chucked out the kansas city prophets realising his mistake i think.. Today vineyard are typically allergic to dominion theolgy as a result.. the founding father of all this mess is william branham and the kansas city prophets. Wimber made a mistake in promoting them but he distanced himself from the theology so he wasnt the author of the mess.. Now and not yet of the kingdom is not the same as the now and now of the kingdom..
@@JuliexSteadman John is coming out with a book on September 1st that covers from the latter rain to the new apostolic reformation. He will have all his sources and a lot more detail in the book. I don't know anything about Winber personally, but I do know John's track record as a historian---he's really meticulous and careful. It will be interesting to read the book.
AS in any phenomenon there is the error and there is the opposite error. Yes the charismaniacs are in gross error. but the opposite error is to insist that miracles should have ceased take a close look at I Cor 13 and onwards to chapter 14 do aby of you know as you are known, i face to face ? or do yo see as through a glass dimly if you have the humility to answer the latter then though the scripture be perfect it is NOT the perfect that Paul is speaking of which perfect has not yet come THEREFORE miracles SHOLD continue but it goes without saying that counterfeit manifestations ( all writhing flesh IMO , with no reason t all to invoke satan) should be discerned called out and rejected but to quench the spirit and despise ongoing prophecy which is what if done if you incorrectly insist that miracles should have ceased? that error is suicidal and it is what the early catholic church did in response to Montanus, ( 2nd century AD) another extreme charismatic crazy man. reaction rather than reasoned response is SUICICAL foolishness and too many Christians are doing this just as they did against the montanists
The new apostolic reformation and charismatic theology are not the same. The assemblies of god came against william branham and his dominion theology in the 1950's. Bill johnson who seriously goy into william branhams teachings in the 1990's had to leave the AOG and half his church left. John wimber separated from the kansas city prophets who were influenced by william branham. Bethels book the physics of heaven is new age..
This video is exceptionally inaccurate. I strongly suggest folks view the response by Luke Geraty as he addresses corrects a number of the inaccuracies.
There is a more perfect way. I think john collins is exposing the history of a latter rain movement which intentionally divided the church and which made certain christians feel superior to their non spirit filled brothers. Pentecostalism is aberrant doctrine. It preys upon the void that existed when the church abandoned the biblical doctrine of power and said that power ceased to operate. Crooks and criminals stepped in to fill that void. Had the church recognized these criminals, they coule have prevented a lot of damage. Collins is setting the record straight, not slamming pentecostals. There is no baptism in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as a second act of grace after salvation. People like me stick to the text. I have a real tongue, but i am not a pentecostal. The gifts did not cease but im not a charismatic. Everyone does not speak in tongues as proof of the Spirit. That makes salvation dependent on a gift. The Spirit baptizes a man when he receives Christ.
@@haroldwilkin7956Exactly! John is exposing the bad things that descended from the movement WMB started. If these people are doing all the bad these bad things John is saying they do--and he has proof--then don't you want them expsed? Then people say, why aren't you exposing the catholic church? John was raised in the Branham movement, that's why he focuses on WMB, what he came from and what came from him. He doesn't hate anyone. If a person is in a church that has these bad people as leaders, warning them is not hate, it's love.
I borrowed a copy of "Quest For The Radical Middle," which was a book about Wimber's ministry. I don't recall the author's name, but he seemed to think of Wimber in the same way that William Branham's followers did of him.
Only difference is that Wimber was probably really a true believer with tons of mistakes under his belt, while it appears Branham was a true deceiver working for the devil.
Your analysis appears spot on. However Wimber was not forthcoming with the Mother’s Day revival with Lonnie Frisbee. He tried to steer clear of him while attributing his whole Third Wave to that event.
I attended a Vineyard church for three years. A big problem with that church, symptomatic of the entire Vineyard movement as well is founder, is that it was yet another example of the charismatic paradigm of "do as I say, not do as I do." Wimber and Vineyard, like all charismatics, talked a big game, but failed to produce the kinds of organic miracles that they taught should be normative for Spirit-filled believers. "Power evangelism" sounded like a swell way to do church, but it was, and remains, an unattainable ideal, not a visible reality.
Organic miracles happen all the time, with or without belief. The healing of human hurts (i.e, emotional healing, or softening the consequences of evil, suffering, etc.) can happen without a medical miracle taking place. That’s what is happening the most in healing ministries. There are many Christians that have had experiences of the supernatural. For the most part these are self authenticating in nature. An appendix to Wimber’s book “Power Healing” includes a text by social anthropologist David C. Lewis who studied the supernatural elements at a conference in Sheffield 1985 which was arranged by Vineyard. Using an intelligent design inference grid, as advocated by Vineyard scholar J.P. Moreland, is a good way to authenticate miracle claims.
@@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111 "Emotional healing" and "softening of consequences" are not organic miracles. True organic miracles -- you know, the "power evangelism" kind, like restoring sight to the blind, restoring a lost limb, cleansing a leper, or raising someone from the dead -- are self evident. Those are exactly the kind of miracles missing from the modern charismatic movement -- and the world knows this, even if charismatics cannot admit it. P.S. I was in the Pentecostal/charismatic movement for over two decades.
Resuscitations happen. However, most admittedly are not on the grand scale of what Jesus did with Lazarus. There are other cases in church history of resuscitations. For example, Papias relates that he had received a wonderful narrative from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that a dead man was raised to life in his day. Papias Fragment VI Irenaeus writes in his book, Against Heresies II.31.2: “Moreover, those also will be thus confuted who belong to Simon and Carpocrates… so far are they from being able to raise the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles did by means of prayer, and as has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity - the entire Church in that particular locality entreating [the boon] with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints - that they do not even believe this can be possibly be done,…” As for modern examples of resuscitation miracles, Craig Keener has compiled some examples in his article, "The Dead Are Raised" (Matthew 11:5 // Luke 7:22): Resuscitation Accounts in the Gospels and Eyewitness Testimony.”
@@jenkinsbrigade9862there are lots of testimonials related to the above. Craig Keener has a book out on the subject. I have heard Wimber say that when Jesus commissioned his disciples to pray that the dead would be raised he was speaking of resuscitations and not resurrections. That makes sense. I’m thinking that these types of resuscitation healings are most likely to be hospital bed type miracles related to those on the verge of no longer having viable heart beat activity. I can’t speak for Wimber but I know of at least one case, in which a hospitalized person that I’ve prayed for, who was on the verge of dying made a mysterious recovery. Here, one person’s medical anomaly is another person’s healing miracle connected to a prayer for recovery.
One more note. You can find online a story from J. P. Moreland's about God healing an amputee. Than there is the Christian apologist Pinnock. About the time he was starting to doubt the historical aspects of the Christian faith, by thinking of them as parables, he testified of how he, “received healing from a serious macular degeneracy” in his only functioning eye in 1982. In regard to the healing of his eye Pinnock stated, “I know from personal experience that one such incident can be worth a bookshelf of academic apologetics for Christianity (including my own books).”
Used to attend Wimber’s church and Vineyard off-shoots in southern California . Looking back, I realized it would feel as if Wimber’s mouth would move , but nothing out if it made sense.
Wimber chucked the kansas city prophets out. William branham and the kansas city prophets were the founders of dominion theogy, latter rain, manifest sons of God... todays incarnation. NAR Wimber distanced himself from this stuff and as only into the now and not yet of the kingdom.. Not the now and now of the kingdom. Today vineyards are allergic to dominion theology and the NAR as a result of being bitten by it.. My husband attends feltham vineyard in the UK and has done vi eyard theology classes..
@@lesliewells-ig5dl it does not have all facts correct, I was there. For one Bickle was not mentored by Wimber. KC Fellowship did become part of the Vineyard for 5 years from about early 1991 until October 1996. I got saved in 1977 and went to church at Lancaster Vineyard in California pastored by a man named Brent Rue. I lived in Kansas City from 1991 through October 1996 and attended Metro Vineyard in KC. It is easy now after Wimber has died to recreate history, redfine motives and specific beliefs of an individual .... put it on a youtube video, add an authentic sounding AI voice. Bickle has proven to be false, and IHOP to be plainly a cult. John Wimber died in 1997, this youtube channel is an authority on the facts of his life, beliefs, and motives?? ..... OK
@@ryanmenold2711 firstly, Wimber died in 1997, I grew up in the Vineyard church in CA (1977 until 1991) then was in KC from 1991 until 1996. to keep it short.... these guys are partly full of shit
Wimber's "worship" music was/is SENSUAL. Yes, creepy isn't far enough to describe the damage the bad theology in the songs did and does to so many. Now an epidemic of toxic music in churches across the world, spread like poison in drinking water.
People teach on signs and wonders because they do not do them. People who do them do not teach on them. Jesus never taught on signs and wonders; He just did them.
..dont conflate bethel /dominion theology, latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation new apostolic reformation (nar) with pentecostals... that teaching came in through william branham in the 1950s but the AOG stood against them at the time and Bill Johnson (Bethel) when he got completely into Branhams teacings and books had to part ways with the AOG. Yes the two have become mixed up and I have to say that is with some help from wimber giving them a platform even though later he dissasociated... And today Bethel have been hugely influential as their book The Phyics of Heaven (which must come out of branhams teachings i would have thought) is taught in their bible school along with dominion theology and thousands of people around the world get taught at Bethel as if its a normal bible school... Converging apostasy anyone..
@@JuliexSteadman I do not conflate bethel /dominion theology, latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation new apostolic reformation (nar) with pentecostalism. (Pentecostal theology and "pentecostal people" are not the same thing.) I do, however, consider pentecostal theology to be in severe error. Remember how it began? Parham went away for a weekend and left his students to consider this question: What is the initial evidence of someone being baptized in/with The Holy Spirit? The question assumed something that is simply not true, so it was a doomed project from the start. There is no initial evidence that a person has been filled with the Holy Spirit, in my opinion. I believe that question set up a movement on the wrong foot, and it went sideways from there. I was saved into Pentecostalism, and have studied extensively. There are logical flaws that are too significant for me to ignore. The whole thing was founded on the idea that we are supposed to be able to quickly judge who has the Holy Spirit and who does not. You do not judge who has the Holy Spirit by any sign or wonder, but by the developing of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer. The doctrine actually blocks one's ability to obey the command to be continually being filled with The Holy Spirit by continual obedience to the commands of God. The Spirit is given to those who obey. Each act of obedience to God gets you refilled with The Holy Spirit, and when we sin, we drive the Spirit away. No, this is not saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved... It is the oil lamp we get at salvation, filled with oil and burning brightly. As we live and walk with Jesus, the oil burns down. This is a good thing. Obedience taps it up to full again. Don't obey, and you can use up the oil, and your light can go out. But, if we repent, we are refilled and relit. It is not a new salvation. The lamp is like the seed that abides. I just know I have been in all sorts of churches, and can tell you first hand that Pentecostals are no closer to God than non-Pentecostals, and the do not have any power other believers do not have. My observation is that power is lacking in all of the churches today, and statistics back me up. If Pentecostals had a secret power with God, why are the divorce rates the same in all the churches? And, why are those rates the same as the unsaved world in general? Easy. Because living for God is not as cut and dry as man likes it to be. We want to think we know more than we do. I can say that Pentecostal doctrines kept me from prayer for 31 years. And that was pure death. I have enjoyed eternal life for the last 4 years. It has nothing to do with any "church." Also, if there is an initial outward sign that you have the Holy Spirit (without which, you are not Christ's), then there is no point in "working out your salvation with fear and trembling." Just point to "tongues" and you know the person is saved. Then why are so many Pentecostals pure devils? But, this is to big a subject for a RUclips thread, but you commented, so you deserved a real response. Thank you.
@@busker153 “But, this is to big a subject for a RUclips thread, but you commented, so you deserved a real response. Thank you.” No, its great, thanks. Well Ive only recenlty looked into the nuts and bolts of how it all began and i was a bit shocked. (I had the glossy version) But I became a christian from an atheistic position, so from just reading my bible I concluded that the gifts of the Spirit have not gone away. Since that time I have looked into the cessationist arguments and not been convinced by them. However I don’t think it all began then. I think typically the real christains have been those without a voice like the anabaptists and so because they were poor and being persecuted it didn’t get documented, what sort of supernatural things went on. However there are two sides to the supernatural so we do need discernment. Your comment: “The whole thing was founded on the idea that we are supposed to be able to quickly judge who has the Holy Spirit and who does not. You do not judge who has the Holy Spirit by any sign or wonder, but by the developing of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer.” This depends on wether you believe that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation (which ofcourse you do) and if that’s it, that you grow into being filled by obedience or whether the baptism in the Spirit is subsequent for power… I looked at both arguments and couldn’t work out whether the baptism (for power) was subsequent or not until recently. Today I think the power of the Holy Spirit is subsequent, mainly because the verse that talks about God giving the Holy Spirit to those who ask seems to be talking about it in a way that its like a gift you give to your kids, not like its talking about salvation. If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:13 13 The Corinthians lacked no spiritual gift but Paul was very unhappy with their morality and warned them that if they continued as they were they were in danger… I used to think that tongues was the sign that you had received the Holy Spirit but I don’t believe that now due to Paul saying rhetorically, ‘Do all work miracles, do all speak in tongues..’ (1 Cor 12:30) clearly they don’t so it cant be the only sign that you have received the power of the Holy Spirit… However I do think it is an observeable phenomina….. but where people describe it as electricity that completely takes them over so they are out of control, I do not think that can be the Holy Spirit… as the fruit of the Spirit is self control… (Bill Johnson describes his experience in their dasterly book The Physics of Heaven, ch24 whole lot of shakin going on - he says it was like 1000 bolts of electricity going through him and he was out of control for a couple of days) Similarly Terry Virgo (UK new frontiers founder) speaks of something similar in his biography after being prayed for by the Arnots (NAR). He was stuck on the floor for two hours, unable to get off the floor even to go to the toilet - you can hear the question mark in his voice, in the text) I agree with you about the oil in the lamp. I believe you can lose your salvation, when sin is full grown it gives birth to death, James says…. and tons of other scriptures… Your comment: “If Pentecostals had a secret power with God, why are the divorce rates the same in all the churches? And, why are those rates the same as the unsaved world in general?” Yes a very valid and interesting observation…. and that power is lacking in all churches today… The thing is that the emphasis on power is not power for holiness. When Bill Johnson (bethel) speaks of becoming Christ like, he is not talking about character but power !! this is where its dangerous.. as we know we can walk in power and on that day he will say he never knew us (end of matt 7 - interestingly just after the sermon on the mount) ******************** Your comment: “You do not judge who has the Holy Spirit by any sign or wonder, but by the developing of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer. The doctrine actually blocks one's ability to obey the command to be continually being filled with The Holy Spirit by continual obedience to the commands of God.” I think growing in the fruit of the HS and having the power of the HS are two different things.. but God gives the gifts to people individually… the NAR believe they are the super apostles and prophets with more power than the original 12… 😊 …too much humility there 😊
@@JuliexSteadman I am not a cessasionist. Those arguments are garbage. So, you and I are in agreement on that! I will copy and paste the rest of your comment in Notepad to consider later, and get back to you. It was nice to meet you, brother. I'd love to Gee Mail with you, and add your name to my daily prayer list. In Christ, Bill
Nobody thinks it's very odd to elevate tradition over the bible until they really know what that means. It means "our tradition" is a new understanding of the bible. The church name? The Catholic Church. This non sense started about 2000 years ago and just look at the fruit of the Catholic Church. Fast forward 2018 years and now we see it's not tradition, it's current day prophecy. In other words false prophecy is elevated to biblical infallibility. I ask anyone to watch Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland RUclips videos and tell me their behavior isn't odd, and that there really are signs and wonders.
Provlem with catholic Church is that they keep developing. If they were holding fast totradition then we would kt have infallibility, priests could marry, there was wine in communion not just vread, no immaculate conception etc etc
I was saved in1985. Moved to Toronto in 1986. I was invited to attend the Toronto blessing services. The moment I walked in I discerned (I didn't even know what discernment was at the time) but I knew in my 'guts' that this was not of God. I saw people fall over, bark like dogs, hysterical laughter!! I turned and left. Now, after walking with the Lord for nearly 40 years I know how to discern false from true. But the biggest lesson is discerning between truth and half truths! This is what many believers fail to discern. The old serpent is using the same tactic from the Garden, " did God really say..." Watch out for half truths because they are the hardest ones to detect.
Great Comment!So True!!
“The highest form of witchcraft is not lying. It is statements of truth not truthfully stated.”
The barking like dogs observation, sounds like some of those attending were suffering from Tourette syndrome. They likely came to be healed.
In Australia during the late 1980s, Evangelical Anglicans from Sydney were so concerned about Wimber's influence that they wrote a book called "Signs and Wonders and Evangelicals", which offered a Biblical refutation of many of Wimber's teachings and practices.
Thats good to know also. Andrew Strom refuted the kundalini in the church also after separating from the KC prophets.0the KC prophets never accepted the rebuke from Ernie Gruen. They just continued in their error. We need God's help to unravel the mess. Gulliksen's original concept certainly got messed up.
Just to be clear for the readers, Gulliksen was founder of Vineyard and not directly connected to the KCP, right?
@@kenfollis5558right.
which teachings did they refute. many cessationists dont believe the supernatural gifts are for today but i cant get that from scripture.... Wimber separated himself from the kansas city prophets and their dominion theology (latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation NAR)
One of his weaknesses was that he didnt teach repentance but i dont hear any churches teaching that today..
From the stage, Wimber held up a bible and said: "The Holy Spirit is not in this Book". I was there and witnessed his deliberate hype of "the stuff" (signs/wonders) as he called it while devaluing Holy Scripture. So many faiths were shipwrecked by this man. Thank you Lord for saving me from this evil. Sola scriptura (Scripture alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), and soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone).
I wish people spread around this discernment more years ago. I was led by my parents into a church where the elders discouraged Bible study IN THE MEN'S BIBLE STUDY! They just wanted to pray in tongues to worship music until the herky-jerks started. When I'd bring it up to my parents, they would always have their excuses, but even as a teenager, before I was born-again, I remembers saying that this stuff was demonic. Now after 24 years in the Lord, I'll never give another moment of my time to a charismatic church. Continuationist yes, but charismatic NO! You may as well join a coven.
What was the context?
@@Angelica._.officalll The context was, they were charismatic, and thought the Bible was for the uninitiated, while real Christians only talked about their dreams and visions.
@@undergroundpublishing Wrong.
I simply don’t believe that he said that. He had a very high view of Scripture but believed that Scripture itself leads us to believing in the present day gifts of the Spirit. He revered the Word of God and was humble enough to admit from the platform if he ever misspoke something doctrinally. He also surrounded himself with good solid evangelical theological minds like Wayne Grudem, Jack Deere, and Don Williams.
Wimber disassociated from the Toronto Blessing, because he did not agree with them! I was saved at one of his conferences.
This is not accurate. John Wimber openly criticized Wagner and the NAR ideas.
This is not accurate from my Third Wave Wimber-Wagner experience.(I’m not knocking it. It was exciting stuff. I believe in true power evangelism- not the Bethel/Todd White examples.) I last heard Wagner speak in 1999. Wimber had just passed away. Wagner went off the rails thereafter.
1997, not 1999.
@@kenfollis5558 here’s a clip where John’s widow Carol very forthrightly describes here how he felt about these theological aberrations. ruclips.net/user/shortsWRlN-A5mZpg?si=2Bf19gMcO6Mf3vbT
Wimber was not Kingdom Now and his greatest error was accepting Paul Cain and Bob Jones. He regretted that mistake. This was not an accurate portrayal of the John Wimber I knew. You should interview Jack Deere and Sam Storms they would give you a different perspective. Painting with too broad a brush with this video.
Thats good to know but Cain and Jones are still being cited. Most people still are confused.
John did an interview with John Deere's son. You can find that on his channel.
. Yes that was shocking..
. Paul cain was a child prodigee of hranham and they were into dominion theology as a result. Wimber took them under his wing for a short time before chucking them out..
Wimber recanted from the now and now of the kingdom before jesus returns.
Wimber only believed in the now and not yet of the kingdom. Vineyard churches today are still allergic to dominion theology as a result..
Wimber held to Inaugurated Eschatology most of his public life. Not Kingdom Now. He wrote against it several times.
This can be summarised in one statement..."guilty by association", an observation from a distance with shades, without myopia correction....
I've read Wimber's books and theology, and this video is a poor refutation of him. He wrote at length about many of the issues discussed here, and you haven't represented them well here, nor have you actually delved into his teachings apparently. He wrote and taught at length, and theologians such as John Stott even wrote a chapter in a book about Wimber with an actual academic discussion of Wimber's theology. Whereas this video just makes vague references to what he taught. Wimber explained clearly why he rejected the Kansas city prophets and their gifts, and wrote publicly to all his churches when he heard of Bob Jones' sexual sin. This video is poorly researched and a smear. I recommend you remove it and come back with a proper refute of his actual teachings, if you disagree with them
A great starting point would be Wimber's 1997 Christianity Today interview / article. He details how he regrets getting involved with the Kansas City Prophets and why he did in the first place. He emphasises character over gifts. On emotions and manifestations he references Jonathan Edwards books and topics on the matter. I have read these works (Religious affections and essay on revival in New England, + some other essays) and have yet to hear anyone challenge Edward's premise on this topic!
"I loved the gifts the prophets exercised; I didn't like the package. The package involved the presupposition that a gift in itself authenticates you. I don't care if you're the finest communicator around, the finest expositor, the most brilliant theologue, if you can't come under the church, if you can't commit yourself to a board, if you can't commit yourself to the leadership of others, if you can't commit yourself to collegiality and relationship, if you can't be inspected as well as teach, I don't want to play" John Wimber on Kansas City Prophets. The wider church largely ignored this, which caused the damage ihop continued to cause, not John Wimber
@@michaelosborne3414Wimber also taught that one could manifest spiritual gifts without a high level of sanctification or even saving faith. He got the latter view from classic Lutheran theology from reading James Kallas.
Michael, to learn anything about biblical, suppositional apologetics, is to comprehend Paul's command to TEST everything with scripture. No one should take my word for it, but I assert Mr. Wimber (a wandering star) exhibited all manner of confused, self-contradicting, doctrine and theology. I lived through much of it. My takeaway, by God's grace alone, was and is to know that the GROUND ZERO of ALL false teaching - always presents ANOTHER GOSPEL, based on works. The Gospel PLUS.
In Wimber's case: DOING whatever the XYZ of signs/wonders are to prove you are a true or mature christian. The sinful, self-righteousness of those who IMPROVISE on God's Word and manipulate the flock to think they are "subpar" believers because they don't raise their arms in worship, speak gibberish, or worse - take the Lord's Name in Vain by claiming God told THEM to say XYZ to the flock, in "authority" . . .is the height of sin in the visible church.
John Wimber was a good, professional musician and composer. And a very affable person. Likable, friendly, and (I think?) honest (the interactions I had with him, at least.) He profited from royalties from his songs. No crime in that at all. BUT BUT, the harm done is the bad theology of his songs. No different than Hillsong or any other musical business which usually goes un-analyzed. Add to that his expansion of his opinions was his assertion the Holy Spirit: "told him things" or "did xyz" or Wimber's visions . . . all setting up for what today we know is the New Apostolic Reformation mess. I advise christians to READ books - especially books that do not agree with you and that have footnotes. Scripture teaches christians to "judge rightly" and to "judge those inside the church" . . THAT right there is a lot to do.
@cynthiarobinsmith3712 I agree with testing everything with scripture, which is precisely why I disagree with this video. It doesn't test Wimber's fruit or teaching against scripture, but rather looks and people associations, under the same old 'NAR' label and talking in vague and general terms about church movements that the vineyard was associated with. I agree with testing by scripture, and as I said, there are books and hundreds of hours of tapes and videos of John Wimber himself teaching on scripture, so a critique of his ministry should instead scrutinise these as a basis for a discussion over an open scripture
John also lead the vineyard out of Toronto because he senced it was going down a wrong path
Thank you for covering this. Mess, indeed.
Another thing you should look into is about why John left Calvary Chapel. And that involves a young man named Lonnie Frisbee and Mother's Day 1980. Check into that. John was not into signs and wonders before that. And even what happened that day in 1980 bothered him and he didn't like it, until a couple of other things happened after that. John Ruttkay, Lonnie's good friend, shares about it on his YT channel, "Jesus Movement 2.0" - the video title is Lonnie Frisbee Unscripted. I recommend you check that out and even check out the three volume biography on Lonnie. You will learn more about Wimber in those books. As it is, you are off base in this video. I hope you choose to look into all of this and make corrections. I brought up some of these issues after one of your previous posts on Wimber. You lose credibility when you are inaccurate in your videos. Makes me question other things you have posted. But mainly, I appreciate you very much for the work you do.
I googled kingdom now theology and it sounds really dangerous and it also said it was part of dominionism. It also said that God is looking for people to help him ....I don't even remember for what. God is looking for people to help him?????? They make God sound like someone who is goingbto post a help wanted add, just hoping someone will apply for the job.
Wimber was not into dominion theology.. he was into the now and not yet. He parted ways with the kansas city prophets.
Vineyard churches today are anti dominion theology for this very reason..
@@JuliexSteadmanI don't know what now and not yet is.
. It is the belief that jesus kingdom is partially here thro thos who make him Lord and partially means that some people get healed and some dont.
The now and now of the kingdom is dominion theology, that we can completely bring heaven to earth now BEFORE Jesus returns. Ruling over everyone thro a 7 mountain mandate.
It used to be called latter rain or manifest sons of God. Todays name for it is the new apostolic reformation. Churches like bill johnsons bethel are into this..
@@JuliexSteadman Thanks for the explanation! I haven't heard of a lot of these guys and what they teach except for through this channel. I was in the Branham group for 28 years and never got involved in all this other stuff. Seems like Wimber was really popular, some people like him, some don't. I don't even know if I've ever heard of him before.
@lesliewells-ig5dl i heard him speak back in the day. He was into thecsupernatural and i cant get how people can believe that the gifts have gone away.
Wimbers weakness was that he didnt really teach repentance. But then today most churches dont and then most cessationists are calvinistic. Its beyond me how anyone believes in calvins interpretation of scripture..
We have the letters of the early church fathers and how they interpreted scrupture (ad70-300) before assimilation into rome. David bercot is good on this... see his books and you tube videos.. what did the early church fathers teach about salvation.. you tube
..still goid to have your critique tho.. we are all on a learning journey..
I learnt loads more about branham from you guys..
You say "John wimbers kingdom now theology has influenced ihop to bethel church."
This is just not true. William branham thro paul cain and bob jones has influenced ihop and NAR.
Half of bill johnsons church left in the 1990s because he so got into william branhams teachings.
Bill johnson didnt have anything to do with wimber.
Yes Wimber initially embraced the kansas city prophets but he chucked them out and had no more to do with them i believe.
Wimbers theology was now and not yet, the same as ladd, not dominion or kingdom now. He parted ways with Wagner because he didnt agree with him..
Exactly
When did Wagner and Wimber part ways? Show one example.
This is good to know. I have a friend i cant talk to who was in the vineyard and saw nothing wrong with Johnson or Graham Cooke. Randy Clark was the culprit who reintroduced these spirits into vineyard churches. Bill Johnson i regard as the most satanic teacher in a church today.
“In 1996, Bill Johnson came as the new senior pastor (Bethel AG) under one
stipulation, that the church’s message would always be about revival. Johnson’s view of revival
was strongly influenced by his attendance at a John Wimber signs and wonders conference in
1987.”
Source: “The Essential Guide to Healing” Randy Clark and Bill Johnson, Chosen Books, Bloomington, Minnesota. Pg. 41.
This is not accurate. Ihop and paul cain got their teachings from william branham.
John wimber kicked out the kansas city prophets because he said everyone gets to move in the gifts, not just super apostles and prophets. Today vineyard are opposed to NAR because they got bitten by them.
I think wimber backed off of dominion theology as well
Today bethel /nar have taken over wimbers founding church annaheim vineyard.
Sad. Keith Green came from Anaheim. The Bible certainly states that Johnson will face judgment. Its the amount of people influenced by him thats a concern. Many of his doctrines and practices were intentionally floated into vineyard churches.
This video contains quite a bit of information that's inaccurate and misleading. Sacramental Charismatic has posted a helpful rebuttal which I'll link below. Viewers, don't forget to check your sources ruclips.net/video/zkB-HkS0EQ0/видео.html
Wimber wasn’t a kingdom now guy. He was a now and not yet and in the end, rejected the Toronto Blessing.
Wimber taught that believers could experience aspects of the kingdom in the present, which, as the video stated, was rooted in the kingdom now theology. (But yes, the bigger mess was created from his foundation)
. No - wimber was the now and not yet of the kingdom which is what Ladd taught who ironically was a cessationist.
Dominion is the now and now of the kingdom.. wimber i think did embrace that initially but backed off it when he threw out the kansas city prophets as he said everyone gets to move in the gifts..
Wimber separated from wagner because he didnt agree with him..
@@LeavingtheMessagenot sincere. Wimber was a biblically sound and a godly man who God used powerfully all over the world. Your videos are quite slanted and dishonest most of the time.
@@matthewb252ableI agree. I was personally involved with the Vineyard back in the 80’s and 90’s. Wimber was originally a Baptist who witnessed the dramatic healing of his son which challenged his Baptist theology. There were definitely ‘flakes’ in the vineyard movement and many of us were not into the Toronto Blessing - including John Wimber who asked the ‘Airport’ site to separate from the Vineyard. I do think some of your teaching is biased and this therefore makes me suspicious of ‘all’ of it.
Wimber did get led astray by the kansas city prophets.. although he separated from them. Im not sure if he was always honest..
I think this undermines the many excellent well sourced videos and brings them all into question.
Why?
@@Balaamsasss Agree. It’s a shame.
It's a smear job, no actual research on Wimber's teachings! Very poor
..wimber came away from the kansas city prophets and dominion theology. He threw the kansas city prophets out.
Today vineyard is allergic to NAR and dominion theology as a result.
Todd bentley who is pictured was completely off in 2008 with his serpent seed theology and praying to angels but it was bethel and the NAR who endorsed him. Wimber wasnt alive when that happened.
Betel NAR have recently taken over wimbers flag ship church in annaheim by deceit..
My husband attends a vineyard church in feltham uk and has done vineyard theology training..
No way do they teach dominion theology..
They teach the now and not yet which is right. The now and now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns is something different.. that is dominion..
@@JuliexSteadman That is interesting. Thank you!!
You are not accurate about many things in this video. Mike Bickle and the KC prophets were already in place in KC at Kansas City Fellowship. When Gruen brought accusations against Mike and the KC prophets, John Wimber was brought in to assess the situation and make recommendations. John recommended KCF move away from songs that were more militaristic (ironic, that you basically said the opposite in this video). Also, John said prophets should not prophecy about babies or marriages - saying so and so will have a baby or saying this person will marry that person. That was his input - he wasn't a leader over Mike but brought in as an outside to look at the situation. At that time the Vineyard was not into the prophetic and John was not a mentor to Bickle. But because of their relationship, John and Mike talked about bringing the "strengths" of their two ministries together. The Vineyard was known for their worship and serving others and KCF was known for the prophetic and intercession. This is in the early 1990's, -way before IHOP-KC started. Because of this joining together, KCF became part of the Vineyard and was renamed Metro Vineyard Fellowship. Not too long afterward, other leaders in the Vineyard expressed not liking the prophetic and so, the Vineyard never embraced the prophetic. Because of that Bickle and the MVF leaders eventually decided to leave the Vineyard and the name of the church was changed to Metro Christian Fellowship. It was this way for awhile BEFORE IHOP started. I was there when all of this transpired.
I agree in the way it was presented to the members. The results tell a much different story.
@@LeavingtheMessage ?
@@LeavingtheMessage well i hope you are going to document things accurately as many people have been saying here before you get to your conclusions about the results..
THIS IS VERY INACURATE SO FAR - LOADS OF PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU SO..
I hope you are going to address that. God doesnt take too kindly to slander...
Thank you.
Believing that the supernatural gifts are for today is separate from dominion theology...
Clifford hill in the Uk whose church was one of the livest ive attended in 1981 as a new christian.
In the 1990s he was asked to do the forward to the kansas city prophets book, Some said it thundered to introduce them to the uk.
Clifford hill discerned an evil spirit operating among them especially bob jones.
They refused to repent, clifford hill went public in his magazine prophecy today back in the 1990's.
Clifford hill was friends with wimber at the time and warned him but he didnt listen..
This is excellent information, thanks. I also think Jones was serving Satan.
A response video from one of the sources cited in this video ruclips.net/video/zkB-HkS0EQ0/видео.html
In the current videos for the Alpha Course they endorse John Wimber. Sadly, along with the good of the Gospel in it Alpha’s Holy Spirit weekend lead me into the NAR
The theology of the NAR, especially that of promoting Christian Nationalism, is totally separate from the Alpha Course.
They don’t teach Christian Nationalism but they now teach ecumenism and the group that came from HTB to teach at the Holy Spirit weekend had been to the Toronto Blessing which made my family and myself open to the NAR.
@@sacredrose5477There will always be levels of fellowship within the Body of Christ, as people disagree. Ecumenism is a good thing when the basics of the Christian faith are acknowledged. C.S. Lewis, Billy Graham, etc are some examples of how that can be done.
The Vineyard theologian, Don Williams, put a booklet on the revival at Toronto. The bottom line is that what impacts the soul, in terms of the Holy Spirit, can impact the body - e.g. tears, laughing, shaking, etc.
Christian Platonic dualism results when things get too cerebral. We are not Vulcans.
. Thats interesting..
. So did you attend a NAR church in the UK. Im based in the london suburbs..
This video is really inaccurate on a number of levels. I am all for well-researched, accurate critiques. This is not it. There is a great deal of conflation, misunderstanding of terms, and just plain error. I refrain from calling it "falsehood" simply because I do not think the creator is "trying" to misrepresent Wimber. Nevertheless, that is the end effect. So where is the information wrong?
Wimber was not "Kingdom Now." The creator doesn't really seem understand what "Kingdom Now" means, and has mistaken Wimber's emphasis on the "Kingdom of God" and his "Kingdom Theology" for adherence to the "Kingdom Now" position.
"Kingdom Now," also known as Dominionism, is a theological movement that basically advocates theocracy. It believes in bringing the heavenly rule of God's Kingdom here on earth "now," and it teaches that the Second Coming will be predicated by the complete and total rule of Christ on earth before He arrives. Indeed, that a condition of Christ's return is the triumph of the church and its teachings over all of the secular cultures and governments of the world.
This is NOT what Wimber believed. Sometimes his teaching has been termed "Kingdom Theology," but this is much different than "Kingdom Now" theology.
Kingdom Theology teaches what theologian George E. Ladd called the "already but not yet" dynamic of God's kingdom: that God's rule has been inaugurated with Christ's coming (particularly His death and resurrection, and the outpouring of the Spirit), but that - as Hebrews 2 tells us - "we do not yet see all things subject to Jesus."
Kingdom Theology teaches that there is therefore an ongoing struggle and conflict between God's Kingdom and the powers of darkness presiding over the systems of this world, and that the church is called to press into these dark places and triumph victoriously by bringing the Kingdom to bear.
But unlike "Kingdom Now" teaching, "Kingdom Theology" fully recognizes that this conflict will go on until Jesus returns.
"Kingdom Theology" also teaches that manifestations of the Kingdom of God are defined for us in the ministry of Jesus and the ministry of the church as presented in the Book of Acts - the preaching of the Gospel with Signs and Wonders, including the healing of the sick and casting out demons, as acts of God's mercy and compassion ("setting the captives free") as well as providing verification of the Gospel message.
Wimber had nothing to do -- at all -- with the emergence of the NAR. This was Peter C. Wagner's theological innovation, and Wimber did not see eye to eye with Wagner on many aspects of his emerging NAR theology. He did not advocate for it in even a qualified way. I would also state that I am not sure Wagner himself would have endorsed what the NAR has become in our day. He coined a phrase and an idea that others ran with.
To say that Wimber was a founder of the NAR is just wrong. Wimber was on faculty with Wagner at Fuller Theological Seminar, and Wagner does credit Wimber's direct influence on him. But the claim that the NAR is in any way a representation of Wimber's theology is just good, old-fashioned "guilt by association", and it is plain wrong.
Wimber likewise launched an investigation into Mike Bickle's leadership at the Vineyard church Bickle pastored. The investigation was based on concerns raised in a 200-page whitepaper published by Ernie Gruen (another Charismatic leader from Bickle's area). Gruen's most serious accusations were found to be erroneous and/or exaggerated. The few points in which Gruen's investigation was deemed accurate were addressed with confession and repentance from Bickle (these items had to do with manifestations of spiritual pride that resulted in some poor leadership decisions). Gruen and Bickle eventually reconciled and many of the men Gruen enlisted to help create the whitepaper later confessed to having been pressured by Gruen to say things they knew to be false or blown out of proportion.
Likewise, Wimber was deeply concerned about various aspects of the Toronto Blessing - associated with the Toronto Airport Vineyard. These concerns resulted in Wimber asking the Toronto Airport Vineyard to disaffiliate from the Vineyard, which they did.
We could go on - and we could do so at great length - about other errors and misrepresentations.
But this should be more than enough to show that the creator really is operating from a place of bias, and even ignorance, in his critiques. At best, he is not well-informed enough to be speaking on these matters. At worst, he is just being plain dishonest.
Matthew 23:10-12 KJ21
Neither be ye called masters, for One is your Master, even Christ. [11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. [12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased, and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Two other titles precede "master" I will leave off for brevity . Various - isms get off on their chieftans ignoring verses like the above warning about hero devotion ?
Per the Lord's Prayer for disciples
Yes thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven but no sinning masters are even in heaven .
Well done. I wondered when you would get to Paul Cain and his connection to Branham. Wimber did part ways with Toronto Blessing (Clark and Arnott) but had fully promoted the KCP (Bickle, Jones, Cain, Jackson, Joyner, Deere etc) until then. My church growing up was all about Wimber and Joyner. Our dear pastor loved them. They jumped on board the Laughing Revival (making pilgrimage to Lakeland FL) and rode that wave to Toronto and back to Florida (Pensacola Outpouring). Then came Bethel’s Bill Johnson in CA and Todd Bentley, coincidentally back in Florida (Lakeland Revival) until Bentley’s adulterous affair. They chased the anointing to Bethel until our dear pastor died and the replacement had his own affair and left the church for dead. (PS. Do a show on Lonnie Frisbee)
John has done other videos about Paul Cain.
Good Comment!!!!
I think it is an unfair critique tho because wimber chucked out the kansas city prophets realising his mistake i think..
Today vineyard are typically allergic to dominion theolgy as a result.. the founding father of all this mess is william branham and the kansas city prophets.
Wimber made a mistake in promoting them but he distanced himself from the theology so he wasnt the author of the mess..
Now and not yet of the kingdom is not the same as the now and now of the kingdom..
@@JuliexSteadman John is coming out with a book on September 1st that covers from the latter rain to the new apostolic reformation. He will have all his sources and a lot more detail in the book. I don't know anything about Winber personally, but I do know John's track record as a historian---he's really meticulous and careful. It will be interesting to read the book.
@@lesliewells-ig5dl thanks, that will be interesting.. i know some of this stuff personally..
Great video
Is this AI text to speech?
Don’t like this AI!!!!
@@TheCaliReadingTeacher Yeah, it's very disappointing, as this is normally a very high quality channel. Hopefully this doesn't become standard.
AS in any phenomenon there is the error and there is the opposite error.
Yes the charismaniacs are in gross error.
but the opposite error is to insist that miracles should have ceased
take a close look at I Cor 13 and onwards to chapter 14
do aby of you know as you are known, i face to face ? or do yo see as through a glass dimly
if you have the humility to answer the latter then though the scripture be perfect it is NOT the perfect that Paul is speaking of which perfect has not yet come
THEREFORE miracles SHOLD continue
but it goes without saying that counterfeit manifestations ( all writhing flesh IMO , with no reason t all to invoke satan) should be discerned called out and rejected
but to quench the spirit and despise ongoing prophecy which is what if done if you incorrectly insist that miracles should have ceased? that error is suicidal and it is what the early catholic church did in response to Montanus, ( 2nd century AD) another extreme charismatic crazy man.
reaction rather than reasoned response is SUICICAL foolishness and too many Christians are doing this just as they did against the montanists
The new apostolic reformation and charismatic theology are not the same. The assemblies of god came against william branham and his dominion theology in the 1950's.
Bill johnson who seriously goy into william branhams teachings in the 1990's had to leave the AOG and half his church left.
John wimber separated from the kansas city prophets who were influenced by william branham.
Bethels book the physics of heaven is new age..
This video is exceptionally inaccurate. I strongly suggest folks view the response by Luke Geraty as he addresses corrects a number of the inaccuracies.
ruclips.net/video/zkB-HkS0EQ0/видео.html
Why does this channel have so much hate against pentecostal and charismatic churches?
There is a more perfect way. I think john collins is exposing the history of a latter rain movement which intentionally divided the church and which made certain christians feel superior to their non spirit filled brothers. Pentecostalism is aberrant doctrine. It preys upon the void that existed when the church abandoned the biblical doctrine of power and said that power ceased to operate. Crooks and criminals stepped in to fill that void. Had the church recognized these criminals, they coule have prevented a lot of damage. Collins is setting the record straight, not slamming pentecostals. There is no baptism in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as a second act of grace after salvation. People like me stick to the text. I have a real tongue, but i am not a pentecostal. The gifts did not cease but im not a charismatic. Everyone does not speak in tongues as proof of the Spirit. That makes salvation dependent on a gift. The Spirit baptizes a man when he receives Christ.
@@haroldwilkin7956Exactly! John is exposing the bad things that descended from the movement WMB started. If these people are doing all the bad these bad things John is saying they do--and he has proof--then don't you want them expsed? Then people say, why aren't you exposing the catholic church? John was raised in the Branham movement, that's why he focuses on WMB, what he came from and what came from him. He doesn't hate anyone. If a person is in a church that has these bad people as leaders, warning them is not hate, it's love.
..no it does valuable critiques usually. They have got this one a bit wrong..
I borrowed a copy of "Quest For The Radical Middle," which was a book about Wimber's ministry. I don't recall the author's name, but he seemed to think of Wimber in the same way that William Branham's followers did of him.
Only difference is that Wimber was probably really a true believer with tons of mistakes under his belt, while it appears Branham was a true deceiver working for the devil.
Your analysis appears spot on. However Wimber was not forthcoming with the Mother’s Day revival with Lonnie Frisbee. He tried to steer clear of him while attributing his whole Third Wave to that event.
Unfortunately, there are many people with that type of following.
I attended a Vineyard church for three years. A big problem with that church, symptomatic of the entire Vineyard movement as well is founder, is that it was yet another example of the charismatic paradigm of "do as I say, not do as I do." Wimber and Vineyard, like all charismatics, talked a big game, but failed to produce the kinds of organic miracles that they taught should be normative for Spirit-filled believers. "Power evangelism" sounded like a swell way to do church, but it was, and remains, an unattainable ideal, not a visible reality.
Organic miracles happen all the time, with or without belief. The healing of human hurts (i.e, emotional healing, or softening the consequences of evil, suffering, etc.) can happen without a medical miracle taking place. That’s what is happening the most in healing ministries.
There are many Christians that have had experiences of the supernatural. For the most part these are self authenticating in nature.
An appendix to Wimber’s book “Power Healing” includes a text by social anthropologist David C. Lewis who studied the supernatural elements at a conference in Sheffield 1985 which was arranged by Vineyard.
Using an intelligent design inference grid, as advocated by Vineyard scholar J.P. Moreland, is a good way to authenticate miracle claims.
@@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111 "Emotional healing" and "softening of consequences" are not organic miracles. True organic miracles -- you know, the "power evangelism" kind, like restoring sight to the blind, restoring a lost limb, cleansing a leper, or raising someone from the dead -- are self evident. Those are exactly the kind of miracles missing from the modern charismatic movement -- and the world knows this, even if charismatics cannot admit it. P.S. I was in the Pentecostal/charismatic movement for over two decades.
Resuscitations happen. However, most admittedly are not on the grand scale of what Jesus did with Lazarus.
There are other cases in church history of resuscitations.
For example, Papias relates that he had received a wonderful narrative from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that a dead man was raised to life in his day. Papias Fragment VI
Irenaeus writes in his book,
Against Heresies II.31.2:
“Moreover, those also will be thus confuted who belong to Simon and Carpocrates… so far are they from being able to raise the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles did by means of prayer, and as has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity - the entire Church in that particular locality entreating [the boon] with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints - that they do not even believe this can be possibly be done,…”
As for modern examples of resuscitation miracles, Craig Keener has compiled some examples in his article, "The Dead Are Raised" (Matthew 11:5 // Luke 7:22): Resuscitation Accounts in the Gospels and Eyewitness Testimony.”
@@jenkinsbrigade9862there are lots of testimonials related to the above. Craig Keener has a book out on the subject.
I have heard Wimber say that when Jesus commissioned his disciples to pray that the dead would be raised he was speaking of resuscitations and not resurrections. That makes sense.
I’m thinking that these types of resuscitation healings are most likely to be hospital bed type miracles related to those on the verge of no longer having viable heart beat activity.
I can’t speak for Wimber but I know of at least one case, in which a hospitalized person that I’ve prayed for, who was on the verge of dying made a mysterious recovery. Here, one person’s medical anomaly is another person’s healing miracle connected to a prayer for recovery.
One more note. You can find online a story from J. P. Moreland's about God healing an amputee.
Than there is the Christian apologist Pinnock. About the time he was starting to doubt the historical aspects of the Christian faith, by thinking of them as parables, he testified of how he, “received healing from a serious macular degeneracy” in his only functioning eye in 1982.
In regard to the healing of his eye Pinnock stated, “I know from personal experience that one such incident can be worth a bookshelf of academic apologetics for Christianity (including my own books).”
Used to attend Wimber’s church and Vineyard off-shoots in southern California . Looking back, I realized it would feel as if Wimber’s mouth would move , but nothing out if it made sense.
This seems nasty and unnecessary.
..no, they are trying to do an honest critique which is necessary. Its just its not very accurate, and that is quite serious..
This video is not honest … if you presented this to a university professor you would fail because the lack honesty
Please explain.
What is not honest about it?
Wimber chucked the kansas city prophets out. William branham and the kansas city prophets were the founders of dominion theogy, latter rain, manifest sons of God... todays incarnation. NAR
Wimber distanced himself from this stuff and as only into the now and not yet of the kingdom..
Not the now and now of the kingdom.
Today vineyards are allergic to dominion theology and the NAR as a result of being bitten by it..
My husband attends feltham vineyard in the UK and has done vi eyard theology classes..
@@lesliewells-ig5dl it does not have all facts correct, I was there. For one Bickle was not mentored by Wimber. KC Fellowship did become part of the Vineyard for 5 years from about early 1991 until October 1996. I got saved in 1977 and went to church at Lancaster Vineyard in California pastored by a man named Brent Rue. I lived in Kansas City from 1991 through October 1996 and attended Metro Vineyard in KC. It is easy now after Wimber has died to recreate history, redfine motives and specific beliefs of an individual
.... put it on a youtube video, add an authentic sounding AI voice. Bickle has proven to be false, and IHOP to be plainly a cult.
John Wimber died in 1997, this youtube channel is an authority on the facts of his life, beliefs, and motives?? ..... OK
@@ryanmenold2711 firstly, Wimber died in 1997, I grew up in the Vineyard church in CA (1977 until 1991) then was in KC from 1991 until 1996. to keep it short.... these guys are partly full of shit
John Wimber's music teaches salvation by surrender to Jesus as a spiritual boyfriend. Once you realise this, it's pretty creepy.
Wimber's "worship" music was/is SENSUAL. Yes, creepy isn't far enough to describe the damage the bad theology in the songs did and does to so many. Now an epidemic of toxic music in churches across the world, spread like poison in drinking water.
People teach on signs and wonders because they do not do them. People who do them do not teach on them. Jesus never taught on signs and wonders; He just did them.
..dont conflate bethel /dominion theology, latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation new apostolic reformation (nar) with pentecostals... that teaching came in through william branham in the 1950s but the AOG stood against them at the time and Bill Johnson (Bethel) when he got completely into Branhams teacings and books had to part ways with the AOG.
Yes the two have become mixed up and I have to say that is with some help from wimber giving them a platform even though later he dissasociated...
And today Bethel have been hugely influential as their book The Phyics of Heaven (which must come out of branhams teachings i would have thought) is taught in their bible school along with dominion theology and thousands of people around the world get taught at Bethel as if its a normal bible school...
Converging apostasy anyone..
@@JuliexSteadman I do not conflate bethel /dominion theology, latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation new apostolic reformation (nar) with pentecostalism.
(Pentecostal theology and "pentecostal people" are not the same thing.)
I do, however, consider pentecostal theology to be in severe error. Remember how it began? Parham went away for a weekend and left his students to consider this question:
What is the initial evidence of someone being baptized in/with The Holy Spirit?
The question assumed something that is simply not true, so it was a doomed project from the start. There is no initial evidence that a person has been filled with the Holy Spirit, in my opinion.
I believe that question set up a movement on the wrong foot, and it went sideways from there.
I was saved into Pentecostalism, and have studied extensively. There are logical flaws that are too significant for me to ignore.
The whole thing was founded on the idea that we are supposed to be able to quickly judge who has the Holy Spirit and who does not. You do not judge who has the Holy Spirit by any sign or wonder, but by the developing of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer.
The doctrine actually blocks one's ability to obey the command to be continually being filled with The Holy Spirit by continual obedience to the commands of God. The Spirit is given to those who obey. Each act of obedience to God gets you refilled with The Holy Spirit, and when we sin, we drive the Spirit away.
No, this is not saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved... It is the oil lamp we get at salvation, filled with oil and burning brightly. As we live and walk with Jesus, the oil burns down. This is a good thing. Obedience taps it up to full again.
Don't obey, and you can use up the oil, and your light can go out. But, if we repent, we are refilled and relit. It is not a new salvation. The lamp is like the seed that abides.
I just know I have been in all sorts of churches, and can tell you first hand that Pentecostals are no closer to God than non-Pentecostals, and the do not have any power other believers do not have. My observation is that power is lacking in all of the churches today, and statistics back me up.
If Pentecostals had a secret power with God, why are the divorce rates the same in all the churches? And, why are those rates the same as the unsaved world in general?
Easy. Because living for God is not as cut and dry as man likes it to be. We want to think we know more than we do. I can say that Pentecostal doctrines kept me from prayer for 31 years. And that was pure death. I have enjoyed eternal life for the last 4 years. It has nothing to do with any "church."
Also, if there is an initial outward sign that you have the Holy Spirit (without which, you are not Christ's), then there is no point in "working out your salvation with fear and trembling." Just point to "tongues" and you know the person is saved. Then why are so many Pentecostals pure devils?
But, this is to big a subject for a RUclips thread, but you commented, so you deserved a real response. Thank you.
@@busker153 “But, this is to big a subject for a RUclips thread, but you commented, so you deserved a real response. Thank you.”
No, its great, thanks.
Well Ive only recenlty looked into the nuts and bolts of how it all began and i was a bit shocked. (I had the glossy version) But I became a christian from an atheistic position, so from just reading my bible I concluded that the gifts of the Spirit have not gone away.
Since that time I have looked into the cessationist arguments and not been convinced by them.
However I don’t think it all began then. I think typically the real christains have been those without a voice like the anabaptists and so because they were poor and being persecuted it didn’t get documented, what sort of supernatural things went on. However there are two sides to the supernatural so we do need discernment.
Your comment: “The whole thing was founded on the idea that we are supposed to be able to quickly judge who has the Holy Spirit and who does not. You do not judge who has the Holy Spirit by any sign or wonder, but by the developing of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer.”
This depends on wether you believe that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation (which ofcourse you do) and if that’s it, that you grow into being filled by obedience or whether the baptism in the Spirit is subsequent for power…
I looked at both arguments and couldn’t work out whether the baptism (for power) was subsequent or not until recently.
Today I think the power of the Holy Spirit is subsequent, mainly because the verse that talks about God giving the Holy Spirit to those who ask seems to be talking about it in a way that its like a gift you give to your kids, not like its talking about salvation.
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:13 13
The Corinthians lacked no spiritual gift but Paul was very unhappy with their morality and warned them that if they continued as they were they were in danger…
I used to think that tongues was the sign that you had received the Holy Spirit but I don’t believe that now due to Paul saying rhetorically, ‘Do all work miracles, do all speak in tongues..’ (1 Cor 12:30) clearly they don’t so it cant be the only sign that you have received the power of the Holy Spirit…
However I do think it is an observeable phenomina….. but where people describe it as electricity that completely takes them over so they are out of control, I do not think that can be the Holy Spirit… as the fruit of the Spirit is self control…
(Bill Johnson describes his experience in their dasterly book The Physics of Heaven, ch24 whole lot of shakin going on - he says it was like 1000 bolts of electricity going through him and he was out of control for a couple of days)
Similarly Terry Virgo (UK new frontiers founder) speaks of something similar in his biography after being prayed for by the Arnots (NAR).
He was stuck on the floor for two hours, unable to get off the floor even to go to the toilet - you can hear the question mark in his voice, in the text)
I agree with you about the oil in the lamp. I believe you can lose your salvation, when sin is full grown it gives birth to death, James says…. and tons of other scriptures…
Your comment: “If Pentecostals had a secret power with God, why are the divorce rates the same in all the churches? And, why are those rates the same as the unsaved world in general?”
Yes a very valid and interesting observation…. and that power is lacking in all churches today…
The thing is that the emphasis on power is not power for holiness. When Bill Johnson (bethel) speaks of becoming Christ like, he is not talking about character but power !! this is where its dangerous.. as we know we can walk in power and on that day he will say he never knew us (end of matt 7 - interestingly just after the sermon on the mount)
********************
Your comment: “You do not judge who has the Holy Spirit by any sign or wonder, but by the developing of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of a believer. The doctrine actually blocks one's ability to obey the command to be continually being filled with The Holy Spirit by continual obedience to the commands of God.”
I think growing in the fruit of the HS and having the power of the HS are two different things.. but God gives the gifts to people individually… the NAR believe they are the super apostles and prophets with more power than the original 12… 😊 …too much humility there 😊
@@JuliexSteadman I am not a cessasionist. Those arguments are garbage. So, you and I are in agreement on that! I will copy and paste the rest of your comment in Notepad to consider later, and get back to you.
It was nice to meet you, brother. I'd love to Gee Mail with you, and add your name to my daily prayer list.
In Christ,
Bill
@@busker153 ok great, thanks. PS Julie is a female name in the UK 🙂
blah blah blah
What an amazingly articulate comment.
@@lesliewells-ig5dl blah b;aj avb;ah
@@lesliewells-ig5dl LOL !!
@@JuliexSteadman These people are so silly.
@lesliewells-ig5dl ..no i wouldnt have them in that category. I would normally say that they do their research well.
Nobody thinks it's very odd to elevate tradition over the bible until they really know what that means. It means "our tradition" is a new understanding of the bible. The church name? The Catholic Church. This non sense started about 2000 years ago and just look at the fruit of the Catholic Church. Fast forward 2018 years and now we see it's not tradition, it's current day prophecy. In other words false prophecy is elevated to biblical infallibility. I ask anyone to watch Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland RUclips videos and tell me their behavior isn't odd, and that there really are signs and wonders.
Provlem with catholic Church is that they keep developing. If they were holding fast totradition then we would kt have infallibility, priests could marry, there was wine in communion not just vread, no immaculate conception etc etc
Thank you!