Exactly. You don't get to pick on my team member who inadvertently added a serious bug, I represent the team to you, the same team that worked feverishly to isolate and fix that bug. And this was a learning experience for the team member who inadvertently added the bug. That's what the emphasis should be on. It's like the episode Spider in From The Earth To The Moon. The engineer identified the mistake they made and immediately went to his manager to report it. That he made the mistake isn't what matters, that he knew, on a hunch, to review his math and found it and was proactive in reporting it is what was important. You don't discipline someone like that, they are keepers.
im a programmer and if i had to stand there and take shit for every little typo that i made, i wouldnt be doing this job. No one Codes 8 Hours a Day without making a mistake.
@@Neakas Given the year Fallout was built and what you believe the coding practices were back then and how garbage collection and memory allocation has evolved over the years, do you think something like the
Remember that back then there were very little ways to update it, it was put on CD, maybe you would later download a patch or do a new release with the new version on the CD. It wasn't instant and automatic downloads, that made devs lazy.
@@shimona500 I don't think game devs are lazy, they often work brutally long hours just to ship a game on time with as few issues as possible. Gamers always give the developers shit but it's the corporate executives that are at fault, they're completely detached from the product and usually don't know the first thing about video games but always rush the process to please their shareholders. They're the ones that should get the backlash, but unfortunately that's not the case.
At the time, I recall patches. But the experience itself wasn't broken. No Mutants Allowed had community driven "mods" awhile ago, without completely killing the existing game.
I'm sure Fargo wasn't the greatest at the time and made mistakes, I'm bit defending him though. However, he did makes some good games and when he came back to the industry he made wasteland 2 and 3 which were fantastic games.
@@Peglegkickboxer No one will deny that Brian has done a good JOB over the last few decades, but HUMANLY speaking, the way he treated Tim back then was TOTALLY WRONG.
It wasn't too bs because a game breaking bug delayed shipment and there was nobody to be named as responsible for it. However, a change on the decision happened in secrecy and expecting motivation from that are indeed low.
@@xxlCortez It was a simple mistake that any programmer could have made. It wasn't like he wrote an entire function or class that was utterly inept or anything. The company was and would continue to profit from a hit game. Cutting a one-time bonus to one employee over that issue is complete and utter BS, especially while they were under crunch. Tim explained the nature of the bug, and why he felt the programmer wasn't to be reprimanded for it. That should have been good enough for Brian. Taking retribution for such a small slight, even if it had a big impact (but actually small in the grand scheme), is a great way to demotivate a team who is already being worked to the bone. I hope no one has the misfortune of working under you. The lack of wisdom and forbearance you display is exactly the kind of BS that causes great people like Tim, Leonard, and Jason to leave important projects, and hurts their creative vision.
@@Deadener that "simple" mistake was a game breaking bug that took weeks to fix. I'm sure that under your leadership there would be no accountability whatsoever but I can understand why a boss wouldn't just let it slide. Tim didn't expose the guy responsible and for that he, as the leader took a fall.
@@xxlCortez And the ruthless and ridiculous response from Brian caused Fallout 2 to lose it's lead developers. Again, I pray you never lead a team. Your pettiness and petulance will sour everything you touch.
@@Deadener When was I petty or petulent? I said I can see Brian's problem and even though I said I didn't agree with him, you're foaming like a madman with moronic accusations. Don't project your anger issues on random people. You're the last person who should decide about leading a team.
@@kylenewberry9792 Unfortunately, Troika didn't last but delivered some masterpieces (Arcanum has had no spiritual successor, so far and we definitely need a remake - Larian, can you read me?)
@@kylenewberry9792 irk, Vampire is literally THE game for me, I've lost count how much I replayed it. If I could play 1 game for the rest of my life it would be VtbM. It even rekindled my passion for art and drawing for quite a while, which is NOT an easy thing to do - I've made so much fanart for this game. My love for anyone who had a hand in creating this game is eternal (just like vampires ha)
@@Li_Tobler same ! i loved vampire! and when i looked up who made the game it all made sense! im glad he decided to go through with making this game instead of staying on fallout 2.
You told me this story before and it makes me just as mad now as it did then. The frustrating part is that I imagine when Fargo tell his version of the story it's probably how "Tim stole my leads" and how he is utterly blameless he is. I miss you Tim - you are one of my favorite people.
@@CainOnGamesthank you for making an amazing game and thank you for going on to make arcanum of steam works and magic obscura. Pretty much thank you for my happy memories of gaming as a kid 😁
Looking back, I still don't understand how Brian Fargo screwed up so royally and destroyed such a great company. Years later when he released Wasteland 2, I understood what happened. Brian was in charge. Wasteland 2 is a good game, but still a shell of what Fallout, Fallout 2, and even Tactics delivered so long ago. They dared to do something different. So many promises broken, from the start this choice is massive and matters, but the game never returns it just shifts who joins and doesn't matter at all. it starts off by shooting itself in the foot on narrative by lying to the player. They don't even try to build on it in the sequel, they just argue new region because that story was so botched. None of the choices in either Wasteland games actually matter, they don't even try to make choices effect other regions or do anything innovative, just old ideas and generic metrics of design carried on. Again Wasteland 2 was good, but wasn't even what Brian Fargo promised, wasn't even close imo. It didn't deliver anything close to what Fallout/Fallout 2 delivered in freedom and scaled everything back. I never played Wasteland, but after playing Wasteland 2, I don't know if I missed much. I just wish another company bought the rights instead of Bethesda. It could have continued if given to a company that can write a great story with branching choices, where you can actually choose how to play, to include no combat play throughs. Not sure why so many games force you to play our way, combat no matter what. It does make sense in Wasteland because the game isn't that long without combat to bloat the gameplay with maps that are destoryed by older games. It is kind of sad, because it could have been up there with Fallout. I miss Fallout, and Fallout 2 with the fanmade patch to restore quests are still some of the greatest RPG's of all time. They put Wasteland under Brian to shame. They are good linear stories that don't even try to innovate and I would argue take many steps backwards for the genre.
People like Fargo aren't worth trying to make happy, in my experience. My safety valve is to always make sure I work for the quality of the work itself first.
This is how it is a lot with executives. The harder you work, the more they demand. The more you succeed, the more they expect. They don't reward you, they don't praise you, they only tell you to get back to work. They do this until they bleed you dry of everything you have. Your motivation, your enthusiasm, your energy, and your mental health.
That's generally their job. If they don't do that, they're basically failing at their own job description, and would be replaced eventually. That's what "management" means. The only real exception is people who 100% own the company themselves and have enough excess funds they can afford to let people be comfortable. But... the moment someone else's money gets involved, that's out the window. And there's a thin line between a nice boss and a loser chump who gets taken advantage of by his workers. Funny how that perception switch works.
@@zeriel9148 There is a limit to how much you can push someone. I understand the managers job is to ensure that staff are doing their jobs well, but you also have to consider worker moral. There is a delicate balance between productivity and moral that must be achieved and maintained in order to ensure that a company succeeds. If you don't stay on top of your workers, they might become lazy and unproductive. If you ride them too hard and expect too much of them, they get burned out and could start looking for work elsewhere. Too many bosses today expect far too much instead of trying to achieve that balance.
They reward you with more work and jobs no one else wants to do. They never give you a pay raise nor more time off because they still see you as expendable.
I had a boss who liked to physically push people when they didnt do what he wanted even if it was literally illegal or a safety risk, Reported that motherfucker to the state and he got fired and arrested.
Just a shame he sat on it for a while. I'd have started scheduling new job interviews the next day, and delivered the resignation when I had a new one on the trigger lol
I really respect that you took responsibility for a mistake of your team and refused to give their name up, I think that is a really honourable thing to do. That kind of attitude makes for great leadership. The reaction you got sucks but you kept your morals and that's more important; in my opinion.
Particularly those kinds of mistakes anyone - junior, senior, John Carmack, anyone - can make. The correct approach isn't to place blame, it's to look for ways to improve processes that can catch those errors as early as possible.
@@orterves John Carmack COULD make that mistake, but he would've peered into the multiverse to find the quickest possible solution, fixed the problem with one hand and designing two new maps with the other, before ramping his Ferrari into an awaiting alien mothership to give a presentation on how to navigate the 4th dimension
"We just proved it. Why do we have to do it again?" That resonated with me on a deeply personal level. We must protect ourselves because some people will grind us to dust to make a few more dollars if we don't.
I've heard a really similar thing from other artists, almost those exact lines come up from a lot of people I know who work on big projects that take off.
Reminds me of my last job. Relentless, relentless grind, and every time you got through a week, or a project, they'd be more waiting for you. So I jacked it, took a big paycut (the joys of being single with no kids), and got a job in a warehouse. Best thing I ever did.
Hearing things like this about how Brian Fargo treated people, it starts to make a lot more sense how Interplay lost money for most of its existence, despite producing many hits and eventually having to sell to the crooked Caen brothers.
Remember: Tim almost dropped Fallout 1 because he was severely underpaid for his position. Knowing this and having given him a raise himself, Fargo still decides to cut his bonus as a 'motivation'. This had to have been some petty revenge he had to improvise an excuse for. He had every reason under the sun to expect only outrage from Tim for doing something like this. Fargo sounds like the most inept leader I've heard of.
Big props to Leonard and Jason for responding the way they did to your resignation. Game dev today would be closer to paradise if there were more people like you involved.
@@zars1324 What are you on about video game developers don't even have any unions that's part of the systemic issue with crunch and overworking in the vocation?
@@ashleywilliams4896 no, moron, gaming is going downhill because of people who are ALSO pro union not because of unions, but US unions have proven they're just a tool of the opposite corporation
And now you're regarded as one of the greatest developers in RPG history, and Brian is regarded as "the guy who drove a company into the ground and gave Bethesda a billion dollar IP for less than pennies on the dollar."
@@lloydmartel Definitely YES. First of all, the world is all done and allows for almost endless expansions. Not only in USA setting, but all around the world - case in point latest mod for F4: London. Secondly, both games received VERY good reviews and sold well. Thirdly, it has been several years without Fallout (not sure when the deal negotiation started). It was long enough for people to get hungry but short enough that people still remembered. Fourthly, isometric, old-school RGP fans are nostalgic as hell. You grow out of pew-pew-pew games, but you never grow out of siting comfortably in a chair, and carefully reading dialogue and wondering if you should put next skill point in speech. Note that at that time nobody knew next Fallout will be 3D and more like a shooter then RPG.
Your description of the jokes in Fallout 2 & 1 confirms something I felt for a long time - while people today complain about games like Borderlands forcing "internet memes" instead of genuine humor, Fallout 2 really felt like a "Borderlands of the 90s" in that regard. Tons of in-jokes and references.
Yeah i love the first two games but people give fallout 2 way too much slack for messing up the atmosphere and tone before bethesda could even touch the series. Its still a great game but in that regard its a huge step down
@@plugshirt1762yeah, I’m not gonna lie, I think prefer the world of Fallout 3 to Fallout 2 for that reason. Even if 3 is definitely not my favorite Fallout (that’d be Fo1 & NV). Fallout 2 just hasn’t aged well, and the frequency of annoying 4th wall breaking jokes and movie references really pulls me out of the game in Fallout 2 and kills the atmosphere. Fallout 1, on the other, is timeless. Because it isn’t constantly dating itself. Like, Fo3 might have pretty bad main quest writing and far less fleshed out RPG systems. But it at least allows the player to be immersed in the world and take things seriously instead of constantly ripping you out of the moment with goofy Borderlands humor.
I worked 5 years for huge corpo, who would do same thing to us. Constant crunching, punishment of employees for management mistakes and refusal to learn on failures. Your story hit me hard. Thank god I left that hellhole.
The constant crunching is generally a net boon for a corpo. Like mentioned here there was an employee who never got his work done on time, and with a corpo they'd force you to work overtime for free instead to get that work done.
You’re a good man for protecting a member of your team that made an innocent mistake. A mistake which may have seriously impacted their livelihood, based on other things you said. I realize it’s small comfort, but you did the right thing in that moment; that’s a hallmark of a good manager.
Dear Timothy! I'm a grown-up 38 y/o russian man and i want to tell you that what you've done made one of the best memories of my childhood. Some of my friends still playing the game you born 20+ years later. That means that whatever negative decisions were made by so-called "managers" of higher level you made so many kids and grown-up people around the world happy and made such a unique and immersive story - your names will never be forgotten. And probably the full story of creating the Fallout 1 and 2 is yet to be told.! With most of love!
What an amazing story! No wonder Interplay crashed and burned with "leadership" like that. So sad what could have been. But... it's awesome Tim kept making great games elsewhere!
DUDE! I am SO GLAD to hear that you didn't want the temple trials. Maybe I'm an impatient gamer but that tutorial was such a SLOG. I remember playing the temple trial and quitting the game. Only to go back to it maybe months later. The rest of the game was of course still legendary, but glad to hear you pushed to have that skippable. Because you were totally right, and it was the only part of the game that felt off. Also sad to hear how things went with Fallout 2 behind the scenes. That would be heart crushing, I imagine.
Thats the reason its easier for me to start a new save in fallout 1 rather than 2, especially when the game is a lot longer so the starting grind feels a lot longer too, the temple trials on top of all of it... a very unpleasant start.
Love the temple trials. And so many funny jokes (wait what you rebuild the wall door every time you send someone to do the trials that was blown up?). Then again i also love vault 101 growing up. And Fallout 4s prewar intro.
Most of temple of trials is skippable. Ask yourself this question: "Do I really need to fight the scorpions?" Even the ants are slow enough to be outrun.
I met your nephew a few years ago. I don’t remember his name unfortunately. We car pooled together from Rexburg, ID to get to Salt Lake City. He was going to school in Rexburg. We were talking about our hobbies and I mentioned I was a bit of a gamer. He told me he had an uncle that worked in the industry. Once he told me your name I was like 🤯 I told him.. “I don’t know if you understand how influential your uncle is. He created freakin FALLOUT! My favourite franchise of all time!”. He obviously was aware lol. I definitely was being a fan boy to you through him lol. I was so stoked though! We talked about games almost the entire ride and he mentioned some projects he was working on. Really nice kid. I was watching this video and was reminded of that story. Love your content and thank you for the amazing games you have created. I’ve deeply enjoyed all of them.
I would like to hear more stories about Brian Fargo, on one hand he seems like a real bro, on the other he goes ape shit over something as stupid as a little bug. Yes, the game shipped a bit later but in the end it wasn't that buggy and it immediately got cult status. Him cutting your bonus down was a low blow.
same. fargo is a personal hero because he donated a bunch of money to tinnitus research and I would love to hear about how it affected his work. (I have permanent tinnitus). the mimic tim uses when describing him is really intense!
That bug does not seem little at all, a memory leak bug can destroy your entire playthrogh at random points wich is one of the worst. I'll give you an example: The game Donkey Kong for the Nintendo 64 console, had one memory leak bug, it was so atrocious and hard to find that the team decided to force the consumer to buy an external memory module for the console and at the same time, made that module mandatory while in reality the game didn't need it. In the case of Fallout, the official patches still leave a lot of bugs, specialy the one that randomly corrupts the "MASTER.DAT" file once you start to visit the surroundings of L.A. before completing the Junktown quests. Other bugs litteraly crash the game making certain updates impossible. For example the Laser Riple upgrade can only be achieved if you played the game and did certain random things in the correct way, otherwise when you go to upgrade the gun the game just crashes. So, long story short, I kinda understand why the boss was pissed off about a memory related game crashing bug and also I do understand why he wanted to know who did it, since you have to know who produced that failure that took a tool on the people trying to catch it up. However I do NOT agree at all with the bonus penalty thing, he knew that the new Director (wich he hand picked) for the Fallout 2 Project was already burned out, producing patches and having serious issues with people at the company taking either credit or forcing themselves over his autority. In the case of Fargo, he had emphathy as a dump skill.
That’s so upsetting to hear! I can’t even imagine what that felt like. Even if your work may not have been appreciated at the company, you have left an impression on millions of fans! fallout has been one of the most important games in my life, and I truly appreciate you, and the work you did to make it come to life.
As of May 2024, this video has less than 1m views. It’s fair to say the vast majority of Fallout fans don’t know what really happened at Interplay. But those of us who know, know. We recognise that without your work, one of the best games of all time would have never been made. So sincerely, thank you for everything you did to make it happen.
Holy smokes. The legend himself has a youtube channel and goes into the history of my favorite game of all time. This is a treasure! It sucks the way things happened how they did though. You guys did an amazing job on those games. I wonder if you guys ever thought of creating a game similar to that?
This story is probably one of many many stories that amazing creators have experienced - it’s why 90% of games in 2024 are bland, repetitive and lack any soul.
OMG I Died laughing at the "Do you want me to fire her" part! What great videos! You are such a normal person in this crazy world right now. As a jobless Computer Scientist who just graduated from a Top Uni, you are an inspiration to keep pushing forward, and that maybe there's still hope out there somewhere!
I felt this. The injustice of it. If it were me, I wouldn't be able to recount events so dispassionately, even if they were many decades ago. This sort of thing stings for a lifetime.
ikr, i was always wondering what could possibly make Tim and Leonard leave their own IP. Like, they were so passionate about Fallout and went against all odds trying to develop the game, why would they leave half way through making the sequel. Now it makes total sense. And i'm hardly surprised that once again everything was ruined by incompetent management and corporate meddling.
Thank You for your service. Fallout 1 & 2 has brought me a lot of joy over the years. Greetings from Finland - hope you're involved in Fallout franchise somehow in the future
Oh man, this brings me back to the C++ debugging nightmares I've been through in past jobs. I know that pain Tim!! Also, THANK YOU so much for putting in that effort, because little teenage me was able to play and enjoy Fallout all night (and weekend) and nearly miss school on Monday, and it totally changed my life forever. You rock, good sir!
I am 31, and I did not start playing fall out 1 and 2 until last year. Hands down one of the best games I have ever played. Even though the games were listed as a B product. I want to thank you and the whole team for putting the work you all did to make these games. People like me notice the small details and love them.
28 and I also played them for the first time last year. Amazing games, took me a while to get the hang of the mechanics but once I was past that, I was completely immersed in my RPG adventure through the wasteland. First two Fallouts are better games than Bethesda's Fallout 3 and 4, they are timeless pieces of gaming history despite the outdated technology of their time. Everyone involved in that can be proud.
@@Hrvo182I'm also 28 and recently played through Fallout 2 for the first time. Fun game but has some issues. Definitely don't consider them better than the Bethesda games though.
@@tetermc I think the original fallouts are better games in terms of how they are designed, almost like a tabletop RPG campaign.. Bethesda's sandbox approach can be fun, but it ultimately feels like a themepark and the story.. well, everyone knows you don't play Bethesda games for the story.
The originals have way too many "missed" shots. It grinds you down. I also agree that the Bethesda games were much better games, but hindsight is 20/20. Of course they knew what people liked and disliked by then. The technology of 1996 and 1997 was so unbelievably limiting, that Fallout 1 is pretty much a miracle of technology.
Totally understand why that would leave you drained and unmotivated. I love both Fallout and Fallout 2, and have played both of them multiple times. That said, one area where Fallout wins without a contest is atmosphere. The Cathedral in Fallout is very creepy. There is some humor there, mostly in how crazy a lot of the Children of the Cathedral are, but it hits the mark in making you feel like there's something very wrong with this place. The Enclave Oil Rig in Fallout 2, by contrast, undercuts its ominous feel with dated jokes about Dan Quayle spelling 'potato' and the President's secretary being a Monica Lewinsky look-alike with a stained dress. Fallout 2 suffered because the team that followed you seem to be less aware that there's a time for jokes and a time for sincere worldbuilding.
Fallout 2 was still far more popular and had better mechanics and is a fan favorite which is what devs and producers want which is to have broad appeal, if it was just like Fallout 1 it would have failed
@@zk0rned Fallout 2 made a lot of improvements over the original game. It's just that one of those improvements was most definitely not the game's atmosphere. Just about everyone agrees that Fallout 2 overdid it with bad pop culture references and dated humor. In Fallout, you can find Richard Grey's audio diary, in which he recounts his transition into the Master and his descent into madness. It's an unsettling account of him experiment with dipping various creatures, and it's played 100% seriously. It's a great piece of worldbuilding. Would that audio diary have been improved with a joke about him dipping turtles and training them in martial arts, as a shout-out to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Because that is absolutely something Fallout 2 would have done.
Both have amazing atmoshere. But Fallout 1 is where 90% of the ideas come from. It was all there at the start. All the great Fallout games have what Fallout 1 created.
@@NubileReptile Anyone who plays games knows most gamers don't care about atmosphere or world building if the gameplay puts you to sleep. besides the very few that do have/had small cult followings which steadily grow overtime.
It's incredible to me how many amazing games are out there despite their company's management, not because of it. I'm so glad you were able to know your worth and take as much of a stand as you could.
It took a lot of courage and self-control for you to just calmly leave the company after what they've done. By the way It was a wonderful gesture and show of respect of your colleagues who've also decided to resign. I think the worst thing that can happen to a devoted employee is to make them feel like they're not good enough after everything they've done extra. A similar thing happened to me as well and it's not the most pleasant feeling. Kinda makes you wonder: "Was this person just an A-hole or do I really suck at my job?" Breathtaking story. Thanks for sharing this Tim. Much appreciated.
Ah, I always felt Fallout was more immersive and tense with it's great balance of humor and dread, fallout 2 goes over the top so many times, I still love both games, OG Fallout is the ultimate experience for me though, the atmosphere is just unmatched, thank you for sharing your story!
I had no idea you had your own channel, Tim. I just found it and subscribed immediately. Loved your story in this one. It's a shame it had to end like that, but at least it gave us excellent works like Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil and Bloodlines. The first Fallout is still one of the greatest games of all time and it really changed my childhood (2 was good as well, but I never finished it, for some reason). Thanks for all the inspiration throughout the years.
Tim, i know this was the hardest story for you to share because it strikes a nerve, but thank you for sharing. I feel it needed to be told and only by you. Maybe one day you could record an episode on here with Leonard and Jason... a fun look back at your times together. Im happy you left Interplay, but i must admit, Fallout 2 was and remains my favorite in the franchise... mostly though because of you and your original team who eventually went on to create Troika. ❤
I got interested in the series when Fallout 4 first came out which led me to New Vegas and then 1 and 2. I really want to thank you for helping create one of my favorite series of all time. You have done so much and you have no idea how much enjoyment I have gotten out of the series. Thank you so much.
Heck of a story, thanks so much for sharing it. I hope whoever wrote that for loop knows you never ratted them out to management. It's a small thing and has probably been talked about elsewhere before, but really fascinating to hear direct confirmation the temple of trials was disputed from the very beginning.
Figures that it was the studio heads who made them keep it in. No option to skip it? Seriously? With management like that, it's no wonder Interplay went out of business. Especially given what we now know about Brian Fargo.
I’m sad to hear your experience there ended that way. It’s messed up when bosses punish you as a way to “motivate” you (especially! when money is involved). I will say I feel very vindicated to hear that the Temple of Trials, objectively one of the worst and most hated parts of an otherwise amazing game, was mandated by executives and not desired by anyone on the team. I wondered when playing that, “why oh why did they put this in and make it unskippable?” Yay for corporate interference! I can’t tell you though how invaluable these stories are to an aspiring game developer is. Your experience and work is so valuable to me. Thank you.
Thank you for creating the Fallout series. It had such a huge impact on my life when I was young and tell friends that specifically Fallout (1) is my favorite game of all time to this day. I know people that would start playing and couldn't stop until the sun came up. My friend left his copy at my house. One day, after a snow storm in the dead of winter, in the middle of the night my friend (who was 13 at the time) busted into my bedroom. He was covered in snow, and his face was red from the cold. I asked if his mom drove him, and he said no. He had ridden his bike 4 miles in the dead of winter, in a snow storm, to pick up this game. Risking life and limb. I thought it was crazy. Then I played Fallout, and I got it. THAT sort of impact is truly unique. Thanks again.
I can tell it was a very hard time for you, thanks for sharing your story with us giving us more insight into what happened at the time within the company.
I found the story about how you and your co-worker found the big bug in fallout 1 fascinating. You don’t get a glimpse into how game development happens at a granular level like that very often. Thank you sir 👍🏿
Thank you for sharing, Tim. That was clearly hard to go through and I'm glad you ultimately did what was best for yourself, mentally and physically. I fear there are probably far too many stories like this within the games industry and it's important that these stories are told. We appreciate you.
I thumbed up and subscribed because there was a TLDW. Might watch later, but this saves 20 min of time for me, which is very much appreciated. Also, leaving something bad is always good. I'm happy for you that you didn't have to continue dealing with it.
It's always a treasure to hear a hands on experience with how these games are created and the underlying details many don't know, never played FO2 but I grew up on FO3 (even done a very personal review on my channel on fo3 and the overall game haha) So glad I found your channel Cain, subbed :)
Hiya Timothy, You have been a long time role model for me in my own game dev education. I was born '87 so I didn't get to Fallout until after Fallout 2 had already had its time in the sun. But I want you to know that that hearing the raw and viseral reality that can happen in game development from legends like yourself is super important. Its a real shame that your reality in the late 90s is just as relevant today. Thank you.
I just want to reach through RUclips and give you the biggest hug right now. Thanks for sharing this story. I have so much admiration for you and your integrity.
Thanks for being vulnerable with us and sharing such a real and honestly heartbreaking story. Glad you were able to move on from that and continue to be successful :)
Sorry to hear you had to endure this kind of treatment. I'm sure you saw echoes of this over your career as well and that it was never easy! But, thank you for sharing, these kinds of stories help others learn to avoid a similar fate.
@@sircheese6557 It’s literally a 1-3 minute tutorial level in which you can skip most of it easily. If you’re that impatient that you let that ruin the game for you, you’re an idiot .
Born in 1988 here. You and very very few others are somewhat of legends to me personally. I always saw your name in the credits of my favorite games growing up that I still think about fondly (and play annually). I sincerely enjoy listening to you speak on your career. You're basically a living legend.
Love the inside baseball about Fargo and Feargus. All I know of them are the multiple characters referencing their names. I know you went back to Obsidian and worked with Feargus again, would love to hear about that.
Your description of the way the two of you looked for the bug was really fascinating. As a still relatively novice programmer who's coded a few of my own games, I have an idea of how painful certain bugs can be. The dreaded non-replicable bugs suck. And its always those really simple mistakes that cause those massive problems aha.
Thanks for sharing this piece, can only imagine how difficult it might be to share one! Sadly it's really painful and relatable story overall but it's always the right decision to move on from those places, no matter potential gains or losses.
Partially unrelated to this video (this is the first one I've watched), but I love that you have a RUclips channel and you are talking about your practice, career & memories. Absolutely amazing to hear this from someone who has been at this for decades and has the desire to look back and share their thoughts. Looking forward to future videos. Have a good one!
You are a legend man, thank you so much for sharing this. I absolutely love the way you handled the whole situation and wish you the best. This has been very educational for me a young producer. And yes I will still love fallout, will ever do, that's something amazing you and your team started. But now I also understand why 2 its so different.
Wow. Thats heartbreaking. Rly wish you would have been rewarded in a way equal to the success your ip became. Hope youre still able to be proud of how much joy something you created brings to soo many people.
You know, maybe instead of game reviewers and journalists talk about video games. We should have a lot more veteran game devs talk about their experience because it teaches young developer or aspiring game devs to prepare themselves with the reality of management hell like this. And thank you for your wisdom Mr.Cain, I Absolutely love your Fallout and Vampire games.
Thank you for sharing this. What Fargo did seems inexplicable to me. You (and others of course) developed an amazing game with little support that was very positively reviewed and afterwards. Fargo then goes specifically to you requesting ideas for Fallout 2 and to lead the project against your wishes. He then signes off on the spreadsheet you created and goes behind your back to lower your bonus. The time to have that discussion was when he signed off on the spreadsheet, not as a shock. That's just a collosal fuck you and to say it was to motivate you! I'm not surprised you started drafting your resignation that night. A reasonable person would have either discussed it with you before hand or just not be petty and give a good employee the gratuity they deserve. After all you did fix the bug. But I must say thank you for recognising the silent powerhouses who put in a ton of work, there's a lot of managers who don't. And it just goes to show when Leonard and Jason quit using your letter at the same time as you how tight and justified your complaints were.
If I understand Tim's story correctly, Feargus Uruqart signed off on the spreadsheet, who would've been his direct boss, and Fargo changed it later when he saw it, as the boss above him. So I don't think Fargo was involved in that first sign-off.
Really great story, appreciate you sharing. It's hard going sometimes and not only just in game dev but in any other industry as well, I'm glad you were able to stand up for yourself and did what you had to do.
Damn... sounds like Fargo was like that boss from "Office Space" who stole your stapler :( I'm glad that you told that story and shared some very important truths with the world, and I'd be curious to see if Fargo has anything of substance to say publicly in response.
Feargus is the one that i usually hear about as being very hard to work under, this is really the first time I've ever heard of Fargo being a bad boss.
This was so interesting! I love both the games and getting this extra lore, or background on the games, is just simply amazing. This is really the most beautiful thing about the internet - being able to hear stuff like this from people who where actually there, and even being able to convey a message to them. Thanks a lot for this!
It sounds like you had a difficult relationship with Brian Fargo, but a complicated one with Feargus. It's interesting that you and Leonard ended up going to Obsidian, when it seems like there's some points of friction between you guys. I guess like how Josh Sawyer and Chris Avellone don't seem to get along, despite having collaborated on (in my opinion) the best game that either of them had made.
Really interested in it as well. For me those names are associated with some of the best titles ever. But it seems that relationsdhips were complicated. Well, I didn't like wasteland2, so not necessarily Fargo.
When I started to clue in the phrase "lack of bonuses" and a resignation... bro, I feel it. I've been there. Few things makes people so indignant and bitter - justifiably - as when they pour their all into something and the company you work for will not recognize your hard work. Save for going out of their way to knock a leg off the chair you sit on by cutting a bonus.
Oh my god man, what a story and video, I’ve been watching your vids for a lil bit now (I’m a newer fan of the channel) and all the info and wisdom and stories and experiences are so intriguing
Thank you for sharing your journey, Tim! And thank you for the incredible work you did on the original Fallout. That game came at a very influential time and left an unforgettable impression on me. It's one of those games that I still regularly play all these years later and it never ceases to inspire me each and every time. Your work has had an undeniable impact on my life for more than 20 years and I am so grateful for it. Thank you!
Thank you for such an in-depth story and candor, Timothy! I think you'd definitely pushed back on 'Pariah Dog' in Fallout 2, because it was some grade A bullcrap. Interestingly, your story seems to mirror that of Vault Dweller, himself; got that water chip in the form of creating Fallout IP revitalizing not only computer RPG genre but Interplay itself, but forced to deal with the entire mutant army, and ultimately cast out.
@@grendelbiter303It was a special encounter (scripted random encounter that happens only once) where a zombie like dog would become a follower companion to the player and give them debuffs if the player character didn’t run away as soon as the encounter began. But there’s not enough indication that not doing this will lead to your character effectively being cursed. Once it started following you the only way to get rid of it was to k1ll it. But the dog was ridiculously hard to k1ll as it would run away to the outside of the map whenever combat began. The encounter happened to players with low luck I think. Ultimately a cool concept IMO but executed in a way that made it unfair.
"it's to motivate you" Hearing this makes my blood boil. They would need to pry my fingers off his throat after something like that. You have the patience of a saint.
After hearing your story, I can only say that you're a great man Tim . And we're totally grateful for what you've created. I wish that the story would have ended in a different way , but sadly it's the way that happened. I truly respect you pal !
It takes great leadership to not throw someone "under the bus" even if they did the mistake. My old manager was like that I liked her for that she never hanged anyone out, always had everyones back. But she would let you personaly know if you done something wrong, several times over.
Игры
"I'm sorry, you are a hero, but you must leave"
God damn. That hit hard.
Nice
Good thing he doesn't have the bloody mess perk.
That's one of the strongest story endings I witnessed. Absolute top legend
"Well tonight's the night bitches die."
The fact you stood up for the programmer who made the
Exactly. You don't get to pick on my team member who inadvertently added a serious bug, I represent the team to you, the same team that worked feverishly to isolate and fix that bug. And this was a learning experience for the team member who inadvertently added the bug. That's what the emphasis should be on.
It's like the episode Spider in From The Earth To The Moon. The engineer identified the mistake they made and immediately went to his manager to report it. That he made the mistake isn't what matters, that he knew, on a hunch, to review his math and found it and was proactive in reporting it is what was important. You don't discipline someone like that, they are keepers.
im a programmer and if i had to stand there and take shit for every little typo that i made, i wouldnt be doing this job. No one Codes 8 Hours a Day without making a mistake.
@@Neakas Given the year Fallout was built and what you believe the coding practices were back then and how garbage collection and memory allocation has evolved over the years, do you think something like the
@@timanderson5723 oh it definitely happens today. Which is why appreciate someone who shields me as a lowly programmer from "the customer" :)
Punished for being a good leader is a sign you need to seek a better boss
"No one wants to ship a game that crashes randomly" truly better times for gaming.
Remember that back then there were very little ways to update it, it was put on CD, maybe you would later download a patch or do a new release with the new version on the CD. It wasn't instant and automatic downloads, that made devs lazy.
@@shimona500 I don't think game devs are lazy, they often work brutally long hours just to ship a game on time with as few issues as possible. Gamers always give the developers shit but it's the corporate executives that are at fault, they're completely detached from the product and usually don't know the first thing about video games but always rush the process to please their shareholders. They're the ones that should get the backlash, but unfortunately that's not the case.
Said no one at Bethesda
@@bryan2369 Games from the 90s crashed way more than any Bethesda game I've ever played.
At the time, I recall patches. But the experience itself wasn't broken. No Mutants Allowed had community driven "mods" awhile ago, without completely killing the existing game.
Brian Fargo- "People are going to be pissed you left."
Tim- "Maybe that will motivate you to manage the project better next time."
Man, Mr. Fargo seems like such a great guy, doesn't he?
@@hillehaiIt's the kind of awful tactic to put pressure on someone so they feel guilty...
I'm sure Fargo wasn't the greatest at the time and made mistakes, I'm bit defending him though. However, he did makes some good games and when he came back to the industry he made wasteland 2 and 3 which were fantastic games.
nah people in his position only get to fail upwards
@@Peglegkickboxer No one will deny that Brian has done a good JOB over the last few decades, but HUMANLY speaking, the way he treated Tim back then was TOTALLY WRONG.
Fargo expecting you to be motivated by him cutting your bonus for BS reasons is comical beyond belief
It wasn't too bs because a game breaking bug delayed shipment and there was nobody to be named as responsible for it. However, a change on the decision happened in secrecy and expecting motivation from that are indeed low.
@@xxlCortez It was a simple mistake that any programmer could have made. It wasn't like he wrote an entire function or class that was utterly inept or anything. The company was and would continue to profit from a hit game. Cutting a one-time bonus to one employee over that issue is complete and utter BS, especially while they were under crunch. Tim explained the nature of the bug, and why he felt the programmer wasn't to be reprimanded for it. That should have been good enough for Brian. Taking retribution for such a small slight, even if it had a big impact (but actually small in the grand scheme), is a great way to demotivate a team who is already being worked to the bone.
I hope no one has the misfortune of working under you. The lack of wisdom and forbearance you display is exactly the kind of BS that causes great people like Tim, Leonard, and Jason to leave important projects, and hurts their creative vision.
@@Deadener that "simple" mistake was a game breaking bug that took weeks to fix. I'm sure that under your leadership there would be no accountability whatsoever but I can understand why a boss wouldn't just let it slide. Tim didn't expose the guy responsible and for that he, as the leader took a fall.
@@xxlCortez And the ruthless and ridiculous response from Brian caused Fallout 2 to lose it's lead developers.
Again, I pray you never lead a team. Your pettiness and petulance will sour everything you touch.
@@Deadener When was I petty or petulent? I said I can see Brian's problem and even though I said I didn't agree with him, you're foaming like a madman with moronic accusations. Don't project your anger issues on random people. You're the last person who should decide about leading a team.
I think you were more than justified to leave. Good on Leonard and Jason for having your back.
We got Troika in part because of that!
@@kylenewberry9792 In part? Kind of seems almost more like a direct cause, really.
@@kylenewberry9792 Unfortunately, Troika didn't last but delivered some masterpieces (Arcanum has had no spiritual successor, so far and we definitely need a remake - Larian, can you read me?)
@@kylenewberry9792 irk, Vampire is literally THE game for me, I've lost count how much I replayed it. If I could play 1 game for the rest of my life it would be VtbM. It even rekindled my passion for art and drawing for quite a while, which is NOT an easy thing to do - I've made so much fanart for this game. My love for anyone who had a hand in creating this game is eternal (just like vampires ha)
@@Li_Tobler same ! i loved vampire! and when i looked up who made the game it all made sense! im glad he decided to go through with making this game instead of staying on fallout 2.
You told me this story before and it makes me just as mad now as it did then. The frustrating part is that I imagine when Fargo tell his version of the story it's probably how "Tim stole my leads" and how he is utterly blameless he is. I miss you Tim - you are one of my favorite people.
Thank you, Anthony. Like I’ve said, everyone is the hero in their own stories, so I’m sure I’m a villain in some of those.
@@CainOnGamesthank you for making an amazing game and thank you for going on to make arcanum of steam works and magic obscura. Pretty much thank you for my happy memories of gaming as a kid 😁
The way he tries to deflect any responsibility is really what makes me mad. Like, don't be a coward. That guy didn't deserve that job
Looking back, I still don't understand how Brian Fargo screwed up so royally and destroyed such a great company. Years later when he released Wasteland 2, I understood what happened. Brian was in charge. Wasteland 2 is a good game, but still a shell of what Fallout, Fallout 2, and even Tactics delivered so long ago. They dared to do something different.
So many promises broken, from the start this choice is massive and matters, but the game never returns it just shifts who joins and doesn't matter at all. it starts off by shooting itself in the foot on narrative by lying to the player. They don't even try to build on it in the sequel, they just argue new region because that story was so botched. None of the choices in either Wasteland games actually matter, they don't even try to make choices effect other regions or do anything innovative, just old ideas and generic metrics of design carried on.
Again Wasteland 2 was good, but wasn't even what Brian Fargo promised, wasn't even close imo. It didn't deliver anything close to what Fallout/Fallout 2 delivered in freedom and scaled everything back. I never played Wasteland, but after playing Wasteland 2, I don't know if I missed much. I just wish another company bought the rights instead of Bethesda. It could have continued if given to a company that can write a great story with branching choices, where you can actually choose how to play, to include no combat play throughs. Not sure why so many games force you to play our way, combat no matter what.
It does make sense in Wasteland because the game isn't that long without combat to bloat the gameplay with maps that are destoryed by older games. It is kind of sad, because it could have been up there with Fallout. I miss Fallout, and Fallout 2 with the fanmade patch to restore quests are still some of the greatest RPG's of all time. They put Wasteland under Brian to shame. They are good linear stories that don't even try to innovate and I would argue take many steps backwards for the genre.
People like Fargo aren't worth trying to make happy, in my experience. My safety valve is to always make sure I work for the quality of the work itself first.
This is how it is a lot with executives. The harder you work, the more they demand. The more you succeed, the more they expect. They don't reward you, they don't praise you, they only tell you to get back to work. They do this until they bleed you dry of everything you have. Your motivation, your enthusiasm, your energy, and your mental health.
That's generally their job. If they don't do that, they're basically failing at their own job description, and would be replaced eventually. That's what "management" means. The only real exception is people who 100% own the company themselves and have enough excess funds they can afford to let people be comfortable. But... the moment someone else's money gets involved, that's out the window. And there's a thin line between a nice boss and a loser chump who gets taken advantage of by his workers. Funny how that perception switch works.
@@zeriel9148 There is a limit to how much you can push someone. I understand the managers job is to ensure that staff are doing their jobs well, but you also have to consider worker moral. There is a delicate balance between productivity and moral that must be achieved and maintained in order to ensure that a company succeeds. If you don't stay on top of your workers, they might become lazy and unproductive. If you ride them too hard and expect too much of them, they get burned out and could start looking for work elsewhere.
Too many bosses today expect far too much instead of trying to achieve that balance.
@@zeriel9148that’s not how any of it works, go out and live life a little
Such is the trademark of capitalism’s hierarchical structure.
They reward you with more work and jobs no one else wants to do. They never give you a pay raise nor more time off because they still see you as expendable.
"I went home and drafted my resignation" fucking legend. That's what you should do in that situation. You're a god damn inspiration to us all.
We are not the same
@@piratepop7115 typical hostage wagie-cagie mentality
I had a boss who liked to physically push people when they didnt do what he wanted even if it was literally illegal or a safety risk, Reported that motherfucker to the state and he got fired and arrested.
@@pilsplease7561 good job
Just a shame he sat on it for a while. I'd have started scheduling new job interviews the next day, and delivered the resignation when I had a new one on the trigger lol
I really respect that you took responsibility for a mistake of your team and refused to give their name up, I think that is a really honourable thing to do. That kind of attitude makes for great leadership. The reaction you got sucks but you kept your morals and that's more important; in my opinion.
If you're demanding to know who used a "
Particularly those kinds of mistakes anyone - junior, senior, John Carmack, anyone - can make. The correct approach isn't to place blame, it's to look for ways to improve processes that can catch those errors as early as possible.
Indeed, that takes real courage when you're in a toxic environment like that.
@@orterves John Carmack COULD make that mistake, but he would've peered into the multiverse to find the quickest possible solution, fixed the problem with one hand and designing two new maps with the other, before ramping his Ferrari into an awaiting alien mothership to give a presentation on how to navigate the 4th dimension
@@jigglypuff3311 John Carmack could make that mistake - but only on purpose
"We just proved it. Why do we have to do it again?" That resonated with me on a deeply personal level. We must protect ourselves because some people will grind us to dust to make a few more dollars if we don't.
I've heard a really similar thing from other artists, almost those exact lines come up from a lot of people I know who work on big projects that take off.
Reminds me of my last job. Relentless, relentless grind, and every time you got through a week, or a project, they'd be more waiting for you.
So I jacked it, took a big paycut (the joys of being single with no kids), and got a job in a warehouse. Best thing I ever did.
Playing Fallout right now and listening to this makes it crazy that one of the first screens says "Brian Fargo presents"
Petition for the Restoration project mods to put it in a corner at the tiniest font possible
I hope there's a mod that removes that.
@@concept5631 boohoo
@@jedenzet Ok Brian
Hearing things like this about how Brian Fargo treated people, it starts to make a lot more sense how Interplay lost money for most of its existence, despite producing many hits and eventually having to sell to the crooked Caen brothers.
I guess you could say Brian Fargo was a Fa-go
Remember: Tim almost dropped Fallout 1 because he was severely underpaid for his position. Knowing this and having given him a raise himself, Fargo still decides to cut his bonus as a 'motivation'. This had to have been some petty revenge he had to improvise an excuse for. He had every reason under the sun to expect only outrage from Tim for doing something like this. Fargo sounds like the most inept leader I've heard of.
That's why I don't like inxile games.
@@LimakPan Oh it was absolutely petty revenge. Once you know the type, you know.
@@LimakPanand they got karma they sold their ip to bethesda cause facing bankruptcy and they mad lol.
Big props to Leonard and Jason for responding the way they did to your resignation. Game dev today would be closer to paradise if there were more people like you involved.
True bros. Was very inspiring to hear that part of the story.
@justicetrooper
Companies will then push more for outsourcing and more H1B workers.
@@justicetrooper as if not most of garbage ruining gaming is pro union lol
@@zars1324 What are you on about video game developers don't even have any unions that's part of the systemic issue with crunch and overworking in the vocation?
@@ashleywilliams4896 no, moron, gaming is going downhill because of people who are ALSO pro union not because of unions, but US unions have proven they're just a tool of the opposite corporation
And now you're regarded as one of the greatest developers in RPG history, and Brian is regarded as "the guy who drove a company into the ground and gave Bethesda a billion dollar IP for less than pennies on the dollar."
was fallout really worth that much at that time? I think fallout 1&2 is cool but there were only like 2 other games
@@lloydmartel Definitely YES. First of all, the world is all done and allows for almost endless expansions. Not only in USA setting, but all around the world - case in point latest mod for F4: London.
Secondly, both games received VERY good reviews and sold well.
Thirdly, it has been several years without Fallout (not sure when the deal negotiation started). It was long enough for people to get hungry but short enough that people still remembered.
Fourthly, isometric, old-school RGP fans are nostalgic as hell. You grow out of pew-pew-pew games, but you never grow out of siting comfortably in a chair, and carefully reading dialogue and wondering if you should put next skill point in speech. Note that at that time nobody knew next Fallout will be 3D and more like a shooter then RPG.
@@Malisman77listen man fallout 1&2 are great games but at the end of the day they were small impact.
the franchise wasn’t mainstream until fo3
@workisinprogresshe’s not wrong. Fallout didn’t become a behemoth franchise until Bethesda had their way with it in fo3
@workisinprogress derrr based on that logic your comment doesn’t need to exist
Your description of the jokes in Fallout 2 & 1 confirms something I felt for a long time - while people today complain about games like Borderlands forcing "internet memes" instead of genuine humor, Fallout 2 really felt like a "Borderlands of the 90s" in that regard. Tons of in-jokes and references.
Yeah tone of the games completely shifted
Fallout 2 is fun and games but it really forced jokes and pop culture references way too much
i agree fallout 1 i think in that regard aged way better than fallout
Yeah i love the first two games but people give fallout 2 way too much slack for messing up the atmosphere and tone before bethesda could even touch the series. Its still a great game but in that regard its a huge step down
It’s a stark contrast between F1’s Brahmin having a “Moo, I say” bark and Fallout 2 having a Monty Python skit, Duke Nukem and Dirty Harry references.
@@plugshirt1762yeah, I’m not gonna lie, I think prefer the world of Fallout 3 to Fallout 2 for that reason. Even if 3 is definitely not my favorite Fallout (that’d be Fo1 & NV).
Fallout 2 just hasn’t aged well, and the frequency of annoying 4th wall breaking jokes and movie references really pulls me out of the game in Fallout 2 and kills the atmosphere. Fallout 1, on the other, is timeless. Because it isn’t constantly dating itself.
Like, Fo3 might have pretty bad main quest writing and far less fleshed out RPG systems. But it at least allows the player to be immersed in the world and take things seriously instead of constantly ripping you out of the moment with goofy Borderlands humor.
Wow, man. That's some grade A fuckery.
Hope you're doing well, been a few years. You're good people.
I worked 5 years for huge corpo, who would do same thing to us. Constant crunching, punishment of employees for management mistakes and refusal to learn on failures. Your story hit me hard. Thank god I left that hellhole.
Worked for big corpo for a grand total of 4 months where I jumped ship to a small business. Not as well paid, but I actually get to keep my sanity.
The constant crunching is generally a net boon for a corpo. Like mentioned here there was an employee who never got his work done on time, and with a corpo they'd force you to work overtime for free instead to get that work done.
Capitalism is a hellhole indeed.
@@Samar3n It's honestly more evil than Communism at this point. Two sides of the same jewish coin.
@@Assdafflabaff I like Jews and Communism.
You’re a good man for protecting a member of your team that made an innocent mistake. A mistake which may have seriously impacted their livelihood, based on other things you said. I realize it’s small comfort, but you did the right thing in that moment; that’s a hallmark of a good manager.
Dear Timothy! I'm a grown-up 38 y/o russian man and i want to tell you that what you've done made one of the best memories of my childhood. Some of my friends still playing the game you born 20+ years later.
That means that whatever negative decisions were made by so-called "managers" of higher level you made so many kids and grown-up people around the world happy and made such a unique and immersive story - your names will never be forgotten.
And probably the full story of creating the Fallout 1 and 2 is yet to be told.!
With most of love!
кус
What an amazing story! No wonder Interplay crashed and burned with "leadership" like that. So sad what could have been. But... it's awesome Tim kept making great games elsewhere!
DUDE! I am SO GLAD to hear that you didn't want the temple trials. Maybe I'm an impatient gamer but that tutorial was such a SLOG. I remember playing the temple trial and quitting the game. Only to go back to it maybe months later. The rest of the game was of course still legendary, but glad to hear you pushed to have that skippable. Because you were totally right, and it was the only part of the game that felt off. Also sad to hear how things went with Fallout 2 behind the scenes. That would be heart crushing, I imagine.
Thats the reason its easier for me to start a new save in fallout 1 rather than 2, especially when the game is a lot longer so the starting grind feels a lot longer too, the temple trials on top of all of it... a very unpleasant start.
Same here. I was almost FORCED to play through the temple trials by a friend.
Love the temple trials. And so many funny jokes (wait what you rebuild the wall door every time you send someone to do the trials that was blown up?). Then again i also love vault 101 growing up. And Fallout 4s prewar intro.
Most of temple of trials is skippable. Ask yourself this question: "Do I really need to fight the scorpions?" Even the ants are slow enough to be outrun.
@@janmayenese yeah if you want it takes 2 mins to do the trials
I met your nephew a few years ago. I don’t remember his name unfortunately. We car pooled together from Rexburg, ID to get to Salt Lake City. He was going to school in Rexburg. We were talking about our hobbies and I mentioned I was a bit of a gamer. He told me he had an uncle that worked in the industry. Once he told me your name I was like 🤯
I told him.. “I don’t know if you understand how influential your uncle is. He created freakin FALLOUT! My favourite franchise of all time!”. He obviously was aware lol. I definitely was being a fan boy to you through him lol.
I was so stoked though! We talked about games almost the entire ride and he mentioned some projects he was working on. Really nice kid.
I was watching this video and was reminded of that story. Love your content and thank you for the amazing games you have created. I’ve deeply enjoyed all of them.
thanks for the water chip. now leave
Hahaha 😆 😂 😅😮
Fuck
thank for chip, safe life. go
I would like to hear more stories about Brian Fargo, on one hand he seems like a real bro, on the other he goes ape shit over something as stupid as a little bug. Yes, the game shipped a bit later but in the end it wasn't that buggy and it immediately got cult status. Him cutting your bonus down was a low blow.
same. fargo is a personal hero because he donated a bunch of money to tinnitus research and I would love to hear about how it affected his work. (I have permanent tinnitus).
the mimic tim uses when describing him is really intense!
That bug does not seem little at all, a memory leak bug can destroy your entire playthrogh at random points wich is one of the worst. I'll give you an example: The game Donkey Kong for the Nintendo 64 console, had one memory leak bug, it was so atrocious and hard to find that the team decided to force the consumer to buy an external memory module for the console and at the same time, made that module mandatory while in reality the game didn't need it.
In the case of Fallout, the official patches still leave a lot of bugs, specialy the one that randomly corrupts the "MASTER.DAT" file once you start to visit the surroundings of L.A. before completing the Junktown quests. Other bugs litteraly crash the game making certain updates impossible. For example the Laser Riple upgrade can only be achieved if you played the game and did certain random things in the correct way, otherwise when you go to upgrade the gun the game just crashes.
So, long story short, I kinda understand why the boss was pissed off about a memory related game crashing bug and also I do understand why he wanted to know who did it, since you have to know who produced that failure that took a tool on the people trying to catch it up. However I do NOT agree at all with the bonus penalty thing, he knew that the new Director (wich he hand picked) for the Fallout 2 Project was already burned out, producing patches and having serious issues with people at the company taking either credit or forcing themselves over his autority. In the case of Fargo, he had emphathy as a dump skill.
Bosses are like that, they are another kind of creature.
@@PointReflex Mistaking a < and a
@@coffeebreakhero3743 I have tinnitus too, it's seriously so awful
That’s so upsetting to hear! I can’t even imagine what that felt like. Even if your work may not have been appreciated at the company, you have left an impression on millions of fans! fallout has been one of the most important games in my life, and I truly appreciate you, and the work you did to make it come to life.
As of May 2024, this video has less than 1m views. It’s fair to say the vast majority of Fallout fans don’t know what really happened at Interplay. But those of us who know, know. We recognise that without your work, one of the best games of all time would have never been made. So sincerely, thank you for everything you did to make it happen.
Holy smokes. The legend himself has a youtube channel and goes into the history of my favorite game of all time. This is a treasure! It sucks the way things happened how they did though. You guys did an amazing job on those games. I wonder if you guys ever thought of creating a game similar to that?
This was such a tragedy. I’m so glad you had solitary from friends and rose above and prospered from this
solidarity u mean but yeah definitely
This was actually quite upsetting to hear all the behind the scenes struggles, towards the end of the video you can see the sadness in Tim’s face.
This story is probably one of many many stories that amazing creators have experienced - it’s why 90% of games in 2024 are bland, repetitive and lack any soul.
OMG I Died laughing at the "Do you want me to fire her" part!
What great videos! You are such a normal person in this crazy world right now.
As a jobless Computer Scientist who just graduated from a Top Uni, you are an inspiration to keep pushing forward, and that maybe there's still hope out there somewhere!
I felt this. The injustice of it. If it were me, I wouldn't be able to recount events so dispassionately, even if they were many decades ago. This sort of thing stings for a lifetime.
For 20 years I had no idea why it had happened and I've always wanted to know that. Very interesting to hear it from first hands.
ikr, i was always wondering what could possibly make Tim and Leonard leave their own IP. Like, they were so passionate about Fallout and went against all odds trying to develop the game, why would they leave half way through making the sequel. Now it makes total sense. And i'm hardly surprised that once again everything was ruined by incompetent management and corporate meddling.
I totally understand why you left. In this situation most people would have a nervous breakdown and end up with a therapist.
I mean he is still very emotional about it 25 years later, so I can assume he needed one even if he didn't get one.
@@anita.b i hope him making this video helped at all
Thank You for your service. Fallout 1 & 2 has brought me a lot of joy over the years. Greetings from Finland - hope you're involved in Fallout franchise somehow in the future
Oh man, this brings me back to the C++ debugging nightmares I've been through in past jobs. I know that pain Tim!! Also, THANK YOU so much for putting in that effort, because little teenage me was able to play and enjoy Fallout all night (and weekend) and nearly miss school on Monday, and it totally changed my life forever. You rock, good sir!
I am 31, and I did not start playing fall out 1 and 2 until last year. Hands down one of the best games I have ever played. Even though the games were listed as a B product. I want to thank you and the whole team for putting the work you all did to make these games. People like me notice the small details and love them.
28 and I also played them for the first time last year. Amazing games, took me a while to get the hang of the mechanics but once I was past that, I was completely immersed in my RPG adventure through the wasteland. First two Fallouts are better games than Bethesda's Fallout 3 and 4, they are timeless pieces of gaming history despite the outdated technology of their time. Everyone involved in that can be proud.
@@Hrvo182I'm also 28 and recently played through Fallout 2 for the first time. Fun game but has some issues. Definitely don't consider them better than the Bethesda games though.
@@tetermc I think the original fallouts are better games in terms of how they are designed, almost like a tabletop RPG campaign.. Bethesda's sandbox approach can be fun, but it ultimately feels like a themepark and the story.. well, everyone knows you don't play Bethesda games for the story.
@@tetermcthey’re better in almost every way
The originals have way too many "missed" shots. It grinds you down. I also agree that the Bethesda games were much better games, but hindsight is 20/20. Of course they knew what people liked and disliked by then. The technology of 1996 and 1997 was so unbelievably limiting, that Fallout 1 is pretty much a miracle of technology.
Totally understand why that would leave you drained and unmotivated.
I love both Fallout and Fallout 2, and have played both of them multiple times. That said, one area where Fallout wins without a contest is atmosphere.
The Cathedral in Fallout is very creepy. There is some humor there, mostly in how crazy a lot of the Children of the Cathedral are, but it hits the mark in making you feel like there's something very wrong with this place.
The Enclave Oil Rig in Fallout 2, by contrast, undercuts its ominous feel with dated jokes about Dan Quayle spelling 'potato' and the President's secretary being a Monica Lewinsky look-alike with a stained dress.
Fallout 2 suffered because the team that followed you seem to be less aware that there's a time for jokes and a time for sincere worldbuilding.
Fallout 2 was still far more popular and had better mechanics and is a fan favorite which is what devs and producers want which is to have broad appeal, if it was just like Fallout 1 it would have failed
@@zk0rned Fallout 2 made a lot of improvements over the original game. It's just that one of those improvements was most definitely not the game's atmosphere. Just about everyone agrees that Fallout 2 overdid it with bad pop culture references and dated humor.
In Fallout, you can find Richard Grey's audio diary, in which he recounts his transition into the Master and his descent into madness. It's an unsettling account of him experiment with dipping various creatures, and it's played 100% seriously. It's a great piece of worldbuilding.
Would that audio diary have been improved with a joke about him dipping turtles and training them in martial arts, as a shout-out to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Because that is absolutely something Fallout 2 would have done.
Both have amazing atmoshere. But Fallout 1 is where 90% of the ideas come from. It was all there at the start. All the great Fallout games have what Fallout 1 created.
@@NubileReptile
Anyone who plays games knows most gamers don't care about atmosphere or world building if the gameplay puts you to sleep. besides the very few that do have/had small cult followings which steadily grow overtime.
No way you’re serious. The cathedral is over so quickly you can’t even absorb the so called atmosphere. Fallout 2 is superior in every way.
It's incredible to me how many amazing games are out there despite their company's management, not because of it. I'm so glad you were able to know your worth and take as much of a stand as you could.
It took a lot of courage and self-control for you to just calmly leave the company after what they've done. By the way It was a wonderful gesture and show of respect of your colleagues who've also decided to resign.
I think the worst thing that can happen to a devoted employee is to make them feel like they're not good enough after everything they've done extra. A similar thing happened to me as well and it's not the most pleasant feeling. Kinda makes you wonder: "Was this person just an A-hole or do I really suck at my job?"
Breathtaking story. Thanks for sharing this Tim. Much appreciated.
Ah, I always felt Fallout was more immersive and tense with it's great balance of humor and dread, fallout 2 goes over the top so many times, I still love both games, OG Fallout is the ultimate experience for me though, the atmosphere is just unmatched, thank you for sharing your story!
Was so happy to see this channel recommended to me! Looking forward to catching up with all the content you've made Tim! My best to you!
I really enjoy listing to you tell these types of stories. Thanks for taking to make these!
I had no idea you had your own channel, Tim. I just found it and subscribed immediately.
Loved your story in this one. It's a shame it had to end like that, but at least it gave us excellent works like Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil and Bloodlines.
The first Fallout is still one of the greatest games of all time and it really changed my childhood (2 was good as well, but I never finished it, for some reason).
Thanks for all the inspiration throughout the years.
I'd just like to say, thank you for creating a game franchise and world that has left me with many great and fond memories. You're a legend 🔥
Tim, i know this was the hardest story for you to share because it strikes a nerve, but thank you for sharing. I feel it needed to be told and only by you. Maybe one day you could record an episode on here with Leonard and Jason... a fun look back at your times together. Im happy you left Interplay, but i must admit, Fallout 2 was and remains my favorite in the franchise... mostly though because of you and your original team who eventually went on to create Troika. ❤
I second the notion of getting Leonard and Jason on the feed.
That would be incredibly awesome.
Ahh, Troika. I need to fire up Vampire: Bloodlines again.
I got interested in the series when Fallout 4 first came out which led me to New Vegas and then 1 and 2. I really want to thank you for helping create one of my favorite series of all time. You have done so much and you have no idea how much enjoyment I have gotten out of the series. Thank you so much.
This channel is becoming a daily listen for me. Your candid down to earth approach is amazing.
Thank you for sharing your story with us.
This video should go viral. I bet the industry has so many stories like this one, and we all need to be more aware of that.
Heck of a story, thanks so much for sharing it. I hope whoever wrote that for loop knows you never ratted them out to management.
It's a small thing and has probably been talked about elsewhere before, but really fascinating to hear direct confirmation the temple of trials was disputed from the very beginning.
Figures that it was the studio heads who made them keep it in. No option to skip it? Seriously? With management like that, it's no wonder Interplay went out of business. Especially given what we now know about Brian Fargo.
How's Susie Green doing these days?
funny seeing you here
love your stuff my guy keep on keepin on
Hi Hbom
When's the Night in the Woods video coming out, man?
I loved both Fallout 1 and 2, those games are the reason why I became a game dev. But this is so sad to hear :(.
Thanks for sharing those stories. I'm sorry that all happened to you after all you and your team's hard work.
I’m sad to hear your experience there ended that way. It’s messed up when bosses punish you as a way to “motivate” you (especially! when money is involved).
I will say I feel very vindicated to hear that the Temple of Trials, objectively one of the worst and most hated parts of an otherwise amazing game, was mandated by executives and not desired by anyone on the team. I wondered when playing that, “why oh why did they put this in and make it unskippable?” Yay for corporate interference!
I can’t tell you though how invaluable these stories are to an aspiring game developer is. Your experience and work is so valuable to me. Thank you.
Thank you for creating the Fallout series. It had such a huge impact on my life when I was young and tell friends that specifically Fallout (1) is my favorite game of all time to this day. I know people that would start playing and couldn't stop until the sun came up. My friend left his copy at my house. One day, after a snow storm in the dead of winter, in the middle of the night my friend (who was 13 at the time) busted into my bedroom. He was covered in snow, and his face was red from the cold. I asked if his mom drove him, and he said no. He had ridden his bike 4 miles in the dead of winter, in a snow storm, to pick up this game. Risking life and limb. I thought it was crazy. Then I played Fallout, and I got it. THAT sort of impact is truly unique. Thanks again.
I can tell it was a very hard time for you, thanks for sharing your story with us giving us more insight into what happened at the time within the company.
I found the story about how you and your co-worker found the big bug in fallout 1 fascinating.
You don’t get a glimpse into how game development happens at a granular level like that very often.
Thank you sir 👍🏿
Thanks for sharing your story. I'm saddened to learn how you were treated.
Thank you for sharing, Tim. That was clearly hard to go through and I'm glad you ultimately did what was best for yourself, mentally and physically. I fear there are probably far too many stories like this within the games industry and it's important that these stories are told. We appreciate you.
I thumbed up and subscribed because there was a TLDW. Might watch later, but this saves 20 min of time for me, which is very much appreciated.
Also, leaving something bad is always good. I'm happy for you that you didn't have to continue dealing with it.
I just stumbled upon this channel and I think you’re doing real game journalism by documenting your experience
Commenting to help you in the algorithm.
+1
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Yayayyayayayayayayayyayayaya
+4 😂
Damn, I have such respect for you, Leonard and Jason for sticking to what you believed in. Mad props.
It's always a treasure to hear a hands on experience with how these games are created and the underlying details many don't know, never played FO2 but I grew up on FO3 (even done a very personal review on my channel on fo3 and the overall game haha) So glad I found your channel Cain, subbed :)
Wow. Good for you, Tim. I love these videos and learning more about Fallout and your career. Thanks for posting.
90s game development sounds like such a Wild West, thank you for lending your hand to some of humanity’s greatest art Mr.Cain
Wow, it sounds like Boyarsky and Anderson were really awesome collaborators and friends!
Troika happened for a reason
Hiya Timothy,
You have been a long time role model for me in my own game dev education. I was born '87 so I didn't get to Fallout until after Fallout 2 had already had its time in the sun.
But I want you to know that that hearing the raw and viseral reality that can happen in game development from legends like yourself is super important. Its a real shame that your reality in the late 90s is just as relevant today.
Thank you.
I just want to reach through RUclips and give you the biggest hug right now. Thanks for sharing this story. I have so much admiration for you and your integrity.
Thanks for being vulnerable with us and sharing such a real and honestly heartbreaking story. Glad you were able to move on from that and continue to be successful :)
Sorry to hear you had to endure this kind of treatment. I'm sure you saw echoes of this over your career as well and that it was never easy! But, thank you for sharing, these kinds of stories help others learn to avoid a similar fate.
These stories are amazing. Thank you for being so candid about your work.
I HATE the temple of trials.
YES! That damn thing has ruined fo2 for so many people
@@sircheese6557 It’s literally a 1-3 minute tutorial level in which you can skip most of it easily. If you’re that impatient that you let that ruin the game for you, you’re an idiot .
Never stop making videos, your great at it! I look forward to the new post each day
You have some absolutely fascinating stories, Tim. I'm looking forward to the next one.
Born in 1988 here. You and very very few others are somewhat of legends to me personally. I always saw your name in the credits of my favorite games growing up that I still think about fondly (and play annually). I sincerely enjoy listening to you speak on your career. You're basically a living legend.
Really interesting and insightful videos Tim, thank you for everything
Love the inside baseball about Fargo and Feargus. All I know of them are the multiple characters referencing their names. I know you went back to Obsidian and worked with Feargus again, would love to hear about that.
Wow hurts to hear this one Tim. Thanks for sharing it.
Your description of the way the two of you looked for the bug was really fascinating. As a still relatively novice programmer who's coded a few of my own games, I have an idea of how painful certain bugs can be. The dreaded non-replicable bugs suck. And its always those really simple mistakes that cause those massive problems aha.
Thanks for sharing this piece, can only imagine how difficult it might be to share one! Sadly it's really painful and relatable story overall but it's always the right decision to move on from those places, no matter potential gains or losses.
Partially unrelated to this video (this is the first one I've watched), but I love that you have a RUclips channel and you are talking about your practice, career & memories. Absolutely amazing to hear this from someone who has been at this for decades and has the desire to look back and share their thoughts. Looking forward to future videos. Have a good one!
Love your stories and I hope you can release all your amazing stories and invaluable insight and experiences as a book or something some day.
You are a legend man, thank you so much for sharing this. I absolutely love the way you handled the whole situation and wish you the best. This has been very educational for me a young producer. And yes I will still love fallout, will ever do, that's something amazing you and your team started. But now I also understand why 2 its so different.
Wow. Thats heartbreaking. Rly wish you would have been rewarded in a way equal to the success your ip became. Hope youre still able to be proud of how much joy something you created brings to soo many people.
You know, maybe instead of game reviewers and journalists talk about video games. We should have a lot more veteran game devs talk about their experience because it teaches young developer or aspiring game devs to prepare themselves with the reality of management hell like this.
And thank you for your wisdom Mr.Cain, I Absolutely love your Fallout and Vampire games.
Thank you for sharing this. What Fargo did seems inexplicable to me. You (and others of course) developed an amazing game with little support that was very positively reviewed and afterwards. Fargo then goes specifically to you requesting ideas for Fallout 2 and to lead the project against your wishes. He then signes off on the spreadsheet you created and goes behind your back to lower your bonus. The time to have that discussion was when he signed off on the spreadsheet, not as a shock. That's just a collosal fuck you and to say it was to motivate you! I'm not surprised you started drafting your resignation that night. A reasonable person would have either discussed it with you before hand or just not be petty and give a good employee the gratuity they deserve. After all you did fix the bug.
But I must say thank you for recognising the silent powerhouses who put in a ton of work, there's a lot of managers who don't. And it just goes to show when Leonard and Jason quit using your letter at the same time as you how tight and justified your complaints were.
If I understand Tim's story correctly, Feargus Uruqart signed off on the spreadsheet, who would've been his direct boss, and Fargo changed it later when he saw it, as the boss above him. So I don't think Fargo was involved in that first sign-off.
thank you and everyone who worked on both parts.
Absolute legend...what a story, what a channel! Can't wait to watch more from you Mr. Cain!
Really great story, appreciate you sharing. It's hard going sometimes and not only just in game dev but in any other industry as well, I'm glad you were able to stand up for yourself and did what you had to do.
Damn... sounds like Fargo was like that boss from "Office Space" who stole your stapler :( I'm glad that you told that story and shared some very important truths with the world, and I'd be curious to see if Fargo has anything of substance to say publicly in response.
Feargus is the one that i usually hear about as being very hard to work under, this is really the first time I've ever heard of Fargo being a bad boss.
Wow... that sucks, man. I'm sorry to hear about how that went down. I'm looking forward to what you do next!
This was so interesting! I love both the games and getting this extra lore, or background on the games, is just simply amazing.
This is really the most beautiful thing about the internet - being able to hear stuff like this from people who where actually there, and even being able to convey a message to them.
Thanks a lot for this!
It sounds like you had a difficult relationship with Brian Fargo, but a complicated one with Feargus. It's interesting that you and Leonard ended up going to Obsidian, when it seems like there's some points of friction between you guys. I guess like how Josh Sawyer and Chris Avellone don't seem to get along, despite having collaborated on (in my opinion) the best game that either of them had made.
Really interested in it as well.
For me those names are associated with some of the best titles ever. But it seems that relationsdhips were complicated.
Well, I didn't like wasteland2, so not necessarily Fargo.
How did Sawyer and Avellone butt heads? I never read into that
@@Retrofire-47 There were a lot of communication issues and mismanagement surrounding Pillars of Eternity that disrupted Chris' work.
For your consideration, Pentiment is amazing. Though, less of a game more of a choose your own adventure book. Still great tho.
@@cgijokerman5787 Pentiment is great. I played it on release :)
When I started to clue in the phrase "lack of bonuses" and a resignation... bro, I feel it. I've been there. Few things makes people so indignant and bitter - justifiably - as when they pour their all into something and the company you work for will not recognize your hard work. Save for going out of their way to knock a leg off the chair you sit on by cutting a bonus.
Oh my god man, what a story and video, I’ve been watching your vids for a lil bit now (I’m a newer fan of the channel) and all the info and wisdom and stories and experiences are so intriguing
Thank you for sharing your journey, Tim! And thank you for the incredible work you did on the original Fallout. That game came at a very influential time and left an unforgettable impression on me. It's one of those games that I still regularly play all these years later and it never ceases to inspire me each and every time. Your work has had an undeniable impact on my life for more than 20 years and I am so grateful for it. Thank you!
Thank you for such an in-depth story and candor, Timothy! I think you'd definitely pushed back on 'Pariah Dog' in Fallout 2, because it was some grade A bullcrap. Interestingly, your story seems to mirror that of Vault Dweller, himself; got that water chip in the form of creating Fallout IP revitalizing not only computer RPG genre but Interplay itself, but forced to deal with the entire mutant army, and ultimately cast out.
I was going to make the same comment. And Brian Fargo turned out to be the overseer in the story
What's this about Pariah Dog?
@@grendelbiter303It was a special encounter (scripted random encounter that happens only once) where a zombie like dog would become a follower companion to the player and give them debuffs if the player character didn’t run away as soon as the encounter began. But there’s not enough indication that not doing this will lead to your character effectively being cursed. Once it started following you the only way to get rid of it was to k1ll it. But the dog was ridiculously hard to k1ll as it would run away to the outside of the map whenever combat began. The encounter happened to players with low luck I think.
Ultimately a cool concept IMO but executed in a way that made it unfair.
"it's to motivate you"
Hearing this makes my blood boil. They would need to pry my fingers off his throat after something like that. You have the patience of a saint.
After hearing your story, I can only say that you're a great man Tim . And we're totally grateful for what you've created. I wish that the story would have ended in a different way , but sadly it's the way that happened. I truly respect you pal !
It takes great leadership to not throw someone "under the bus" even if they did the mistake. My old manager was like that I liked her for that she never hanged anyone out, always had everyones back. But she would let you personaly know if you done something wrong, several times over.