Symbolism in The Babadook | The Gender Monster and Abuse

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  • Опубликовано: 4 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 86

  • @AthanPius
    @AthanPius 7 лет назад +40

    Of course there is something deviant sexually with the Oedipal situation, but could we go further? Is homosexuality related to a dysfunction of the family? Could it be an attempt to double down on the pathology?

    • @refugio7528
      @refugio7528 7 лет назад +16

      Exactly what I was thinking. Just got done watching the Peterson and Paglia talk, and in there she mentioned how a lot of her homosexual friends had either no father or a somewhat closer than normal relationship with the mother. Seems to correlate with your point! Cheers

    • @johannakunze3300
      @johannakunze3300 5 лет назад +11

      Several decades ago, great therapists like Milton Erickson were still able to publish case stories of successfully treated homosexuality

    • @nicholaswatson4777
      @nicholaswatson4777 4 года назад +1

      Tfw Pageau doesn't directly give his answer but subtly pins a comment instead

    • @nicholaswatson4777
      @nicholaswatson4777 4 года назад +11

      Okay so is the idea that the mother is suppressing masculinity in the home, and the Babadook represents her now shadow desire for the masculine to come back, particularly her husband (as seen in her rejecting the new suitor but then seeing the Babadook as her husband, and also seen in the subtle sexual innuendos of the Babadook)? Then at the end of the movie the mother locks the Babadook away into the basement and takes on the masculine, fatherly role for herself. Thus the movie is portraying that the mother doesn't need the masculine in order to successfully raise her child. But in reality if the masculine is indeed necessary, and the lack of masculinity in the home leads to homosexuality (particularly in male children?) the portrayal of a mother being able to "do it all" without the masculine is indeed a doubling down on the pathology. This interpretation feels incomplete to me but I'm struggling to get the whole picture to click into place.

    • @onelove864
      @onelove864 2 года назад

      How about now with certain aspects of government trying to codify infanticide? They call it ‘afterbirth abortions’ though.
      Lord help us all 🙏🏼❤️

  • @jeffup8956
    @jeffup8956 7 лет назад +31

    Horror and suspense films are by far the most underrated and brilliant cultural artifacts being created in our society today. They got a bad reputation in the 80s but nothing takes you into the shadow and the subconscious and the primordial like horror and suspense.. Nothing can take you there like these films can and I don't think society even acknowledges that despite how wildly popular these types of movies are, they go completely under the radar.

    • @jeffup8956
      @jeffup8956 7 лет назад +2

      when you're right, you're right..

    • @TheLily97232
      @TheLily97232 6 лет назад +1

      Suspense, yes. But horror.....

  • @NathanMeffert
    @NathanMeffert 7 лет назад +43

    Hey Jonathan. I like this trajectory of doing symbolic analysis of pop culture. Great work! Look forward to more.

  • @PaperCiao
    @PaperCiao 7 лет назад +3

    I've been going through your videos and I would just like to say that I really appreciate them. I find your explanations really clear. Thank you

  • @russellpizel3750
    @russellpizel3750 7 лет назад +1

    Thanks for another deep and fascinating interpretation of symbolism in a movie. I wasn't even aware of the movie but now intrigued. I hope you enjoy making these as much as I enjoy watching.

  • @darth_vdare
    @darth_vdare 2 года назад +1

    I just want to say this is 10 times more insightful commentary than anything else I've seen about Babadook. Other youtube videos about it basically say "This movie is about depression. At the end, she defeats her depression. The end."
    I had a very strong emotional reaction to Babadook when I first saw it, which was in the theater. My reaction was that I hated it and I thought seriously about walking out. This video helped me understand that reaction. It strikes me as pretty unlikely that the filmmaker, Jennifer Kent, is fully aware of the symbolic meaning of her own movie (many such cases). Note that her next film, The Nightingale, was a very on-the-nose story about the menace of out-of-control masculine authority.

  • @TheHihocandycane
    @TheHihocandycane 7 лет назад +20

    This is very interesting if you consider how many child sexual abuse cases happen when a single mother brings home strange men, exposing her children to them. I believe it is the most likely situation for abuse.

  • @andrejohnson7538
    @andrejohnson7538 7 лет назад +30

    The meme of the babadook being an LGBT symbol came from a post on Tumblr where Netflix misplaced _The Babadook_ in the LGBT Interest category. At least that's what happened according to Know Your Meme. I don't think it has any more weight than that.

    • @JonathanPageau
      @JonathanPageau  7 лет назад +71

      Accidents happen all the time, but when accidents are taken as meaningful to those who notice them, one must pay attention to the 'why'.

    • @gotoads3618
      @gotoads3618 5 лет назад +2

      @@JonathanPageau Why? Because it was absurd and funny. So the internet found the mistake hilarious and it snowballed from there. There is nothing remotely "gay" about the Babadook. 0%.

    • @CraigHinrichs
      @CraigHinrichs 5 лет назад +8

      @@gotoads3618 I don't think it's that The Babadook is gay it's the fact that the accident happened, the joke landed, and has been repeated over and over. It's in the repetition of the meme (which makes it a meme, an archetype) that brings meaning to it.

    • @nicholaswatson4777
      @nicholaswatson4777 4 года назад +7

      No I don't think the original comment is correct. The post on Tumblr that launched the meme occurred in October, Netflix categorized the Babadook in its LGBT section in December, possibly IN RESPONSE to the growing meme. Know Your Meme has its timeline wrong, the articles Pageau cited at the beginning of the video has their timelines correct.

    • @nicholaswatson4777
      @nicholaswatson4777 4 года назад +1

      @@JonathanPageau What is the symbolic difference between the mother ignoring the Babadook (wherein he then proceeds to beat up the son, and uhhh something else maybe???) and the mother locking the Babadook in the basement? I feel like I'm confusing my thinking by looking at it in a Freudian way where ignoring your shadow is the same thing as locking it in the basement (your unconscious mind). Unless the difference is something you're consciously ignoring vs something you've suppressed so deeply it's not even in your conscious awareness anymore?

  • @Shotzeethegamer
    @Shotzeethegamer 7 лет назад +9

    These videos are always great.

  • @newman7316
    @newman7316 7 лет назад +7

    Whole generations of (potential) serial killers. Raw (limitless and introverted) masculine energy combined with hate-love towards women, children (boys) and "weakness" in general.

  • @ZmeevaDupkaStudio
    @ZmeevaDupkaStudio 7 лет назад +1

    Im really thrilled for your next video!

  • @thinkingchairmusic
    @thinkingchairmusic 3 года назад +2

    Jonathan. You know what really would be good? A "Hereditary" analysis.

  • @xXxC0nSUm3rXxX1337
    @xXxC0nSUm3rXxX1337 2 года назад

    That's was very interesting I just saw this movie and had no idea about the usage of it in the LGBT scene. Your gender analysis was something I wouldn't have picked up on it. The way I saw it or what I focused in on was more that the babadook entity/demon was a manifestation of suffering that the mother was suppressing or ignoring and was causing a psychological block for her and she was only able to get better when she finally faced her demon and confronted it head on rather than avoid it.

  • @MusicForDisappearedTetrominoes
    @MusicForDisappearedTetrominoes 4 года назад +4

    The Babadook hides in the closet. Whose closet? The mother's. He is not the father. He is the mother's toxic masculinity. He was released from her subconscious in order to enable her to be both mother and father to her son, but in time he has gained too much power, taken up too much space and as a consequence she is withering as a woman. His desire to possess her is a desire to destroy her femininity. Even the offer "I will go back to you if you return the boy to me" which the liking of her husband (maybe an illusion created by the Babadook itself, maybe not), confirms the nature of the Babadook: what he is proposing is a restoration of the nuclear family, where in letting him be the father, she can be a woman again, and therefore a wife too. (This makes me believe that once she defeats the Babadook, it is implicit that the man, or a man anyway, will eventually appear at her door again.) In embracing her toxic masculinity, the mother inevitably gets into conflict with "the other man of the house". She doesn't treat him as a son, but as a beta male who has to be kept down. In order to defeat the Babadook, she goes through many steps, one of which involves being restrained by her son who then gently cuddles her, thus showing that his masculinity can both overcome hers and nurture her if she only lets it. So she throws up and spits the toxic masculine tar out. She is now a woman again, but to truly win the battle she needs to go back to the beginning ad extirpate the monster at the root. She needs to revisit the moment when the Babadook entered her life following the death of her husband. She goes through her deepest grief again, lets go of the anger and enters a phase of acceptance (after having first denied reality and then tried to bargain with the Babadook, asking him what he wanted, she has gone through all of grief's phases). It is not only acceptance of the fact that her husband is dead, but that she is a woman and not a man. Having defeated the toxicity in her own masculine, she locks it in her subconscious (the basement) and can be/ behave as a woman again. She cannot kill all her masculinity off, of course, but she makes sure to underfeed it so as not to let it grow too strong again. From time to time, she descends into her subconscious, when she faces the power of the Babadook and what makes her able to stand up to him are her feminine traits: her ability to quiet him down, let him know everything is all right, and nurture him. She can overcome him by being her feminine, unthreatening self. Lastly, the symbology of worms is divided between death and renewal/healing. I think in this case, all three are valid, but I intend the first only as a metaphor within a metaphor, and favour the latter, which I also find quite touching: it makes it look like she is not only feeding the Babadook, but helping him heal from the wounds she herself has inflicted on him, evoking yet two other feminine qualities, tolerance and healing.
    So, to our question... Here is my take.
    Since the Babadook is a representation of the opposite, fully powerful gender inside a person, it makes for a fitting LGBTQ icon.
    ps: I watched the movie years ago when it first aired, so I apologize if I got any detail wrong, but I only recently stumbled upon the topic of the Babadook as an LGBTQ icon and I was pleasantly surprised to find your video about it. Your channel is simply fantastic. And, I would never have thought any of this up if you didn't provide me with the fundamental key of "babadook=masculinity", which I hadn't thought of at the time. I think when I first watched the movie I believed it to be some sort repressed homicidal/suicidal tendency in the mother which after the accident had grown at an uncontrollable rate to the point that it extended to her offspring. But now that your intuition helped my brain elaborate this new theory, I must admit I am much more satisfied with it than I was with the previous one. You are right. When something seems to escape us, that's when things get truly interesting.

  • @manubishe
    @manubishe 3 года назад +2

    That's a very creepy, very frightening case of the Oedipal curse.
    Those who relate toward the boy, may find themselves in very dark place.

  • @Nanohachan
    @Nanohachan 7 лет назад +1

    I really like this videos. Can you do Batman vs. Superman? A lot of people don't like it, but there are a lot of archetypes and references to King Arthur.

  • @veilofreality
    @veilofreality 7 лет назад +2

    I'm a big fan of horror movies even though I am rarely scared when watching them, however I was genuinely unsettled by The Babadook.. its interesting you found it not frightening at all...I guess fear is an extremely subjective experience..

  • @christophersnedeker
    @christophersnedeker 11 месяцев назад +1

    Wait a second wait a second if the babadook was going after the mother how is it about child abuse?

  • @declanm6887
    @declanm6887 5 лет назад +2

    Could it be possible for you to do a video on the movie Krampus. It's another horror movie that has interesting symbolism.

  • @CraigHinrichs
    @CraigHinrichs 5 лет назад +1

    I think the story seems more in line with Pentheus. The dissociative and devouring nature of the mother is what blinds her of who her son is which is what spawns the monster the son seems to prepare for. I think this is the link that perhaps binds with symbol. The dissociation of identity and the inversion of recognition?

    • @nicholaswatson4777
      @nicholaswatson4777 4 года назад +1

      I don't quite understand what you mean by dissociation of identity and inversion of recognition, could you explain that more?

    • @CraigHinrichs
      @CraigHinrichs 4 года назад +1

      @@nicholaswatson4777 I was asking the question at the end of my comment if the mother was disassociated from her identity as a mother and this is what inverted her ability to recognize her own kin. To see your family as a monster or as something that should be destroyed. It's upside down to the nature of a mother.

  • @Nanohachan
    @Nanohachan 7 лет назад +1

    Have you heard of the Fate/Stay Night Franchise? I think it has an interesting take on archetypes since many of the Servants are based off of mythological archetypes such as King Arthur, Gilgamesh, Hercules, Medusa, Medea, and Cúchulainn. The visual novel has an interesting take on the hero's journey and the light novel Fate/Zero is an interesting exploration on nihilism. The protagonist, Emiya Shirou, embodies the Logos in a way since he can create world and objects by saying an incantation. Also, King Arthur is a girl in the series.

    • @Isaxus12
      @Isaxus12 4 года назад

      Never thought I'd see a mention of Fate on this channel lol

  • @Wingedmagician
    @Wingedmagician 7 лет назад +17

    I loved this video.
    Except for the part where you say "It wasn't a particularly good movie."

  • @GamaAnderson
    @GamaAnderson 7 лет назад +11

    What would be the end of the movie if Babadook had its way? Would the boy get turned into a girl? Would Babadook take the boy himself (you know what I mean)? Is the LGBT community admitting they are the victims of a monster?

  • @kunsagigyula8091
    @kunsagigyula8091 5 лет назад +2

    Hello! In my interpretation the Babadook was the mother's sense if guilty. The sense of guilt that destroys the life of the mother, and her child also. The man that has shown interest in the woman didn't appear in the end because this guilt hasn't been processed, just pushed down to the unconscious. She still carries it. (Maybe i am not sensitive enough for this gender bullshit that's going on these days)
    What do you think about this interpretation?

  • @sandramckeehan5679
    @sandramckeehan5679 Год назад

    While listening to this scenario of the movie, I was struck by the maturation process of the child to a man and how the mother was fighting it. I saw the monster, to her, as the testosterone that would some day take away her boy and turn him a man with something to hide under his clothes. She removed all the male toys because she was afraid for his safety. She was being a normal mother who was reluctant to let go of her boy child until she realized it was time. I don't go to sexual deviance usually, so had I done a movie of this story it would have been a coming of age one.

  • @jakewatson6303
    @jakewatson6303 7 лет назад +1

    I love this movie and your review was great. I didn't realize the Babadook had become a LGBT symbol. Kind of ironic. Sorry you didn't enjoy the film as much as I do. (btw PLEASE do an analysis video of the movie Logan!)
    I first analyzed the movie through the lens of depression. At the end of the film, when the Babadook is living in the basement, it seemed to me that Amelia had learned to live with her depression (symbolized by the Babadook), instead of trying to ignore its existence. Whereas the rest of the film, she did everything she could to avoid confronting it. Seems to be congruent with the story of Jonah and the Whale. She had to dive into, and be consumed, by the chaos of her depression to finally be able to have a healthy relationship with her son and her own psyche. I've been learning more about Carl Jung. These themes seem to reflect the process of individuation and incorporating the animus in your personality to become whole.

    • @omglolzbbqsauce
      @omglolzbbqsauce 7 лет назад

      The confrontation and incorporation of the animus/anima definitely has a role here. There's also a LOT Of sexual symbolism during her confrontations (ie mounting and fellatio)

  • @aaronlechtenberger6759
    @aaronlechtenberger6759 7 лет назад +6

    Very Interesting video, but I am completely at a loss as to why the LGBT community would relate to, identify with, or even like the Badadook. It's clearly the dark side of the hyper-masculine male they criticize so heavily. Perhaps the repressed shadow is emerging? Not a very sophisticated answer, given that this is the articulate representation of the dark side of what is missing rather than something blurry that may contain the good qualities of the masculine with it.

    • @nicholaswatson4777
      @nicholaswatson4777 4 года назад +1

      Maybe the Babadook isn't the dark side of a hyper-masculine male, but instead the dark side of an overly effeminate male? Effeminate men are still dangerous, don't be fooled by the fangs into thinking the Babadook must be hyper-masculine due to its predatory nature.

    • @BrettThomasOakleyMerritt
      @BrettThomasOakleyMerritt 3 года назад

      i have not watched the movie, but here is my guess.
      He is dark and comes from below (potentiality) and a ghost without body What it is, is a result of how you respond.
      Negative
      wonting to destroy the family (what caused you pain/pointing out their disfunction)
      Positve
      Expressing a yearning for a reintegration of the masculine.

  • @Tullerman
    @Tullerman 3 года назад

    I remember I really liked that film, didn't it end with the mother being the monster? (although it was never confirmed but strongly hinted at)
    I gotta watch it again with a new set of eyes, in my memory the son was trying to save the mother from her own inner darkness which logically should have been the animus in her, the voice she is always running from that if she only opened up to it would give her all his love but like in the movie Jacobs Ladder end up doing only harm because he is rejected :)

  • @confrontingchaos7593
    @confrontingchaos7593 5 лет назад +1

    Why is the dark force that drives the oepidal mother a masculine force?

  • @Tearsofsoil
    @Tearsofsoil 6 лет назад

    Center of the movie is "Boy". The symbols in the movies are well inferred. Ending in movie is good as the monster is defeated but this don't always happen in real life.
    Only question remains by "Babadook" symbol - which is archetype of predatory hyper masculinity monster that grows under the shadows(basement) of oedipal mother.
    I think it is the inversion of the"Babadook archetype" alike to "wearing dead skin to prevent death"- here taking over the cloak/mantle of dark hypermasculanity(give in) so as to ward-off the "Real Monster" which one might had faced, or is facing. I think they who taking on "this cloak" are saying "We who hide'st in the closet, who are victims of "Babadook" can also be the very same "Babadook" in "present times". Tables are turning and we will have our final laugh"- I think this is in the sub-conscious pysche.
    Tell me Jonathan what do u think?

  • @erichernandez88
    @erichernandez88 7 лет назад

    Duuuude awesome video

  • @onelove864
    @onelove864 2 года назад

    Well
    It seems oddly prophetic they were using this in light of the ‘afterbirth abortion’ (infanticide) movement of late. 💔

  • @19platten20
    @19platten20 6 лет назад

    Love this wanna see more.

  • @newkingjames1757
    @newkingjames1757 7 лет назад +1

    Amazing 😍

  • @claireb3089
    @claireb3089 6 лет назад +2

    you really look like the guy from creep 1 and 2

  • @atlasofthemoon2485
    @atlasofthemoon2485 6 лет назад +2

    I’m a gay and didn’t know that the babadook what being use as an icon for the lgbt community nor do I get why...

  • @omglolzbbqsauce
    @omglolzbbqsauce 7 лет назад +4

    Nice dark room and eerie voice, trying to channel the powers of the babadook ? hmmmmm ? hahaha. Just don't show us your YOU KNOW WHAT

    • @omglolzbbqsauce
      @omglolzbbqsauce 7 лет назад

      this isn't actual work ? Looks like a bit of work. Here's most likely the reality of the situation...The absence of a father figure can lead to the pathology of the oedipal mother, and can potentially explain the rise in LGBT types as the nuclear family collapses. Don't get me wrong, the nuclear family isn't the be-all-end-all way for raising a child however, there are a great deal of isolated, single mothers attempting to raise children by themselves (i'm not sure what the statistics say regarding the relationship to the sexual behaviors of fatherless children, this would be hard to quantify because children can find positive male role models in a variety of places) although even the PHYSICAL presence of a paternal father is proven to have gene-expression consequences on the daughters (daughters without paternal fathers present reach puberty sooner than the average). The nuclear family is dying and the replacement is non-proven and supported by cultural ideologies of women fully capable of performing as fathers. The "everyone as capable and equal" ideology overemphasizes and glorifies the independent woman who raises the child by herself (usually with help of the state). Absence of male teachers in our public schools compound this issue. i have no beef with 80% of school teachers being female but it compounds the issue for father-less children. Hillary Clintons an idiot but i can agree with the concept of "it takes a village" to raise a child.
      Now, i'm not exactly sure what the LGBT's subjective association with the Babadook would be... They possibly see it as an oppressed figure that needs to be liberated. I'm not sure if that's what they want seeing as how the Babadook would be in the lefts words a "toxicly masculine figure". Just like the Pepe pushers, these people need to be careful what they wish for. I believe they enjoy inverting the image of the hyper-masculine. it's sort of insulting to the average man, like putting Barbies clothes on Ken.

    • @nicholaswatson4777
      @nicholaswatson4777 4 года назад

      @@omglolzbbqsauce idk if the Babadook is in fact what the left commonly refers to as "toxic masculinity". Usually that term refers to hyper-masculinity. I feel that the Babadook could possibly be the opposite, the dark side of an EFFEMINATE man. Not sure though...

  • @lachellerivera5624
    @lachellerivera5624 6 лет назад +1

    I’m sorry but you guys are way off. First off the babadook was accidentally categorized by Netflix which is why for a short time people were calling it a lgbt character. The movie is about depression and the babadook is the physical interpretation of the mother’s depression. It’s basically about a mother who’s so depressed that she’s destroying her life and her son’s life. Because she won’t admit that she is still grieving and depressed, the depression becomes much worse the longer she denies it. Only by finally admitting that she hadn’t moved on from her husband’s death and facing her depression does she finally overcome it.

  • @david3443
    @david3443 6 лет назад +1

    I really don't appreciate the picture you're trying to paint here, especially when the premise you're going off of is just the result of a netflix listing issue. Gay people have existed for as long as people have, in various different societies. We aren't the result of some repressed masculine ego or oedipal complex. Gay people have been born to completely typical nuclear families. Correlation isn't causation.
    I do think the movie was exploring aspects related to masculinity, but trying to relate it to some negative manifestation of homosexuality sounds like a cheap shot to me. A shame to see you make a video like this when I found so much to like in your other ones. I guess people just can't resist taking shots at gay people when they have the chance.

    • @Ugoogolizer
      @Ugoogolizer 4 года назад

      Interestingly I didn't hear that at all in what he was saying but I can see why, if how you're characterizing it were true, that you would feel that way and I think I'd agree with you if I saw it that way. I think there's a significant difference between LGBTQIAetc activism and gay people themselves which is what I believe he's referring to

  • @brokenribbedbitch2229
    @brokenribbedbitch2229 5 лет назад +1

    This is the problem with overanalyzing film. The babadook is about depression, grief, sleep deprivation, sleep paralysis, self hatred, and projecting. The meme came about because Netflix glitched it into their LGBT movie category. People thought it was funny, and Tumblr beat the joke to death. That's the extent of it.