But they tend to slip in hand. While some knives are fairly sharp and some are less pukko, saami or folded ones like Swede, are ALWAYS close to the razor sharpness. So yeah, a small one when slips (no guard or dull chisel) you can have a 1" thick gloves but this blade will bite you anyway.
@@HanSolo__ Having condensation on your hand after pulling it out of a glove when it comes in contact with the exposed steel on the tang in sub zero weather is kind of like getting your tongue stuck to a flag pole. (Not that I would know!) : )
@@A_Meek_lake_Dweller Yes I know. We tend to have lower than minus 30 Celsius in my country. Years back it was every winter for at least 1 month. With other winyer months not much warmer. Now it happens once in 2-3 years and lasts no longer than 3 weeks.
MrKansai1 teghe In cold weather/ with cold hands only drawcut never pushcut , that is the idea of many northern knifes. If you need to stab with a small bladed pukko inverse grip put thumb at back of grip or just put thumb on blade in regular grip and angle knife upwards.
Yup. And what the customer won't see is that the maker might very well have drilled a lot of holes in that full width tang to reduce weight, making the construction no more strong than a hidden tang anyway.
Esp. for cheaper products like knives, that's very likely. I myself have purchased a cheap tool with a plastic/rubber handle that should have had a solid metal core, and it turned out the metal rod only went 1/2 way down the handle and under stress the handle bent in my hand as the plastic/rubber alone couldn't handle it. So visual proof of the presence of the metal all the way through the handle is good from a consumer and marketing standpoint.
I have many unpopular opinions on full tangs. Full tangs in knives are a hugely successful marketing idea born out of the economics of contemporary knifemaking. Frankly, for all but the largest manufacturers, it's cheaper to grind a blade from flat stock and adhere two thin scales to the metal than it is to forge it to shape and construct a hilt by drilling a hole in a piece of wood often costing more than the blade steel assembling it with bolster and ferrule, and fixing the tang through the whole thing with a nut or by peening. Some people criticise Mora's hidden tangs for being weak yet the only evidence seems to come from a few videos designed to break the plastic, even under the abuse that these budget knives take the rare instances of actual breakage are far more likely to occur in the exposed blade than the handle.
As an interesting tangent, there are three types of tangs you find in kukris. You find full-width tangs modernly, usually in knives intended for Western consumers, rat-tail tangs are traditionally common, and you also in some traditional kukris find partial-length tangs. The partial tangs are found, oddly, both in fighting kukris and in a lot of working-class kukris. In the case of the working-class kukris they just expect that eventually the handle will crack and break, and they'll just have to go back to the village Kami and he'll make a new hilt. Because they expect to have to replace it they will just heat the tang and burn it into the new handle, often using laha, a Himalayan tree sap used as glue. This technique gives great fit, but it doesn't result in the most durable handle. There are also some fighting kukris with this type of tang, like the Hanshee, which is a kukri with an especially curved blade. Too curved to be used easily for utility work. These were high class kukris, not cheap, and they were made with a "cheap" tang. The reason in their case was so it balanced a particular way. They will also burn in full-length tangs, and this type of tang is quite common, as partial tangs will crack handles. This tendency is also why kukris have bolsters. Japanese blades often have bolsters (the habaki) but usually to fit it to the scabbard. Kukris have one that goes around the top of the handle to keep the blade from cracking it. Full-width tangs are mainly on blades intended for westerners who have come to believe that only a full-width tang is adequately strong. Admittedly, a full-width tang on a kukri is going to be very durable because you don't have the possibility of the tang and blade moving inside the handle and cracking it (I do have a kukri that has just a little play inside, so certain motions result in a slight clicking feeling), but it is not common for a full-length rat-tail to break the handle, not when it's made well. Another note: a full-length but not full-width tang does require certain construction to be durable. Usually they will have a very tightly fit handle, and then a tightly fit plate or pommel that has been peened on. Now, I think some of the reason people think full-width tangs are important is because there have been times when there were lots of rat-tail tangs were on the market that were poorly made, and didn't have proper handle/hilt construction, and these knives broke apart. Maybe not because the tang broke, but because the tang broke the handle.
Nowadays full tangs are certainly treated like a selling point. Often it will be mentioned, that full tangs are ARGUABLY the strongest type of construction. However, in most cases sections will be cut out to reduce weight, so the tang won't even be all that full. There is one advantage, though. Should the handle scales come loose, the tang will still work as a handle on it's own. Less comfortable, but usable.
Full width means at they are at least not screwing you over with a spot welded rat tail tang. You can't tell whether a hidden full length tang is that just by looking at it.
Width of the tang doesn't need to be full, as long as it is housed correctly in the correct wood type. Length of the tang needs to be full, or almost full though, to minimize lever forces interacting with the wood housing and tang in unwanted ways, which can cause the wood to erode gradually from rubbing actions inside. About the iron tangs forge welded to steel blades, this is fine and actually beneficial, as tangs are annealed, blued or softened by heat in some way usually in tools, swords and knives. This is why you don't see tang breaking, because they cant break, they would bend under pressure, not snap or break like the higher hardness blade will.
Another advantage of the full tang is that even if both scales came off you still have a useable tool. Less comfortable perhaps, but useable. I make full tang knives - not for marketing, but because I believe they are better for the Bushcraft knives I make. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not trying to fool anyone.
My question is whether the split wood on a full width tang is more fragile than a hollowed out or glued handle. I have seen a lot of broken, riveted handles in my time.
This. Modern brazed-on rat tails are what we try to avoid by buying full tang. If I *know* the maker is trustworthy a narrow tang is OK. If I don't I would rather see some steel.
It's the short rat tangs that are bad where there is only an inch or so into an too brittle handle like some Finnish big brand kitchen knives or well known Spanish hunting knife makers cheaper knifes or any dirt cheap knife. Use magnet to find out how long tang it is. I have a full tang knife, which is too heavy in the handle ,which would have been a great knife if it had had a tapered tang.
with knifemaking, they like to market a "full width tang" for strength but the real reason for choosing that construction is it is faster and requires less skill to get a perfect fit and finish. thus reducing production costs and increasing profit. another advantage is that if you damage the handle scales it's relatively simple to make news ones rather than replace the knife.
Yes, important point. The flush, sanded down pre-made billet sized tangs are like that. Imo, neither pretty, or very strong. But better than a spot-welded tang, of course.
Another point about full tang knives is that they are sometimes skeletonized inside the grip to save weight and/or make them less handle heavy. The only way to know for sure how much metal is in the grip, is to remove the grip or put it in an x-ray machine.
Colin Cleveland I live in commiforia, there is no moss involved. Though we do put up bird feeders and such, and occasionally we leave hair trimmings as insulation for their nests. But yeah, dry soil with a high clay content is almost like rock.
I think full width tang makes sense for outdoor/survival knives as they are sometimes used for tasks not typical for a knife, such as prying or hand/footholds for climbing etc. It's also probably easier to manufacture especially if you're starting from flat metal bars. For weapons though I agree it's unnecessary.
That goes along with something else. I'm part of a blacksmithing group, and so many people are convinced that knives MUST be made of space age super steel or else they're worthless. They can't believe that the material knives and swords were made of during the middle ages was actually inferior to modern mild steel, and that a knife made of mild to medium carbon steel is a serviceable tool.
I have an M1 bayonet that was likely made in 1944. When I looked it over for the first time I was rather surprised how soft the steel was. It seemed just above mild steel in hardness.
@@themastermason1 Mediveal steel blades had a combination of high carbon, low carbon, wrought iron, and had numerous small and large inclusions. They were made of bloomery steel that had to be forge worked to beat the impurities out and mix the carbon into the metal; that was never completely successful. They didn't start making crucible steel in Europe until the industrial revolution, although crucible steel was being made in India during the Viking age (which is what the real Ulfberts were made of).
When I served in the California National Guard, I saw many M9 (Phrobis III) knives break off at the tang. Granted, they had hollow "survival" hilts and were made of stainless steel... and they were probably being abused, but it does happen quite often among knives, if not swords.
@@joeallen2354 Yes, that would make them tangless. I read somewhere (had quick look but can't find it) that Romans originally used a tangless xiphos sword design where the blade was riveted to the handle at the hilt. That could break at the rivets so they adopted the Celtiberian tanged sword design.
Uncle Randy you’ve seen them, you just didn’t realize it because the tang isn’t full length and isn’t very visible. If you shined a flashlight inside the hollow portion, you would see a nut on the end of the tang. There are a few hollow handled knives that were milled from one piece of steel, but most aren’t made that way.
Hollow steel tube hilts or handles on any tool (knives, hatchets, hammers, shovels) that will experience fair amounts of stress (chopping / hammering) are rubbish - in my experience they almost always bend or break.
When I was looking into buying a Malaysian parang a few years ago, I remember reading somewhere (or perhaps it was. youtube video) that the narrow tangs on the parang are preferred as it helps to keep cutting shock from being transferred to the hand. Not sure how much there is to this, but I can certainly say that I find no shock to my hand from cutting with my parang at all.
I doubt it. The felt shock depends on the grip design (protrusions/uncomfortable for your hand...) and on blade dynamics (how it vibrates on impact and mass distribution). What you gain from an enclosed design is protection from your sweat, which can damage the tang...
i used my camp knife with hidden tang for everything teenage boy can do with it, and still 30 years after i got it from my father theres nothing loose with it i banged nails in, thrown it at trees, chopped wood and even fallen small trees (it has nice saw on back side that was era of gigantic rambo knives my is smaller with 20-25cm blade and more sensible but it has saw)
We humans are quite silly critters. Marketing psychology has a MUCH greater effect on sales than anyone (other than marketing firms) would like to admit. I am a folding knife reviewer (and some fixed blades) and I hear the "full tang is best" refrain over and over and over, it is said so much that it takes on an air of truth without anyone really thinking through if it is needed or not. This is a good video to show that yes it is stronger technically speaking but not generally necessary and sometimes a negative to put a full tang handle on sword. So, most certainly, on a 4 or 5 inch fixed blade the necessity of a full tang is even less.
Very interesting points. I would say however that its only really a sales gimmick when talking about products over a certain quality. I've used a fair share of cheap knives and will say that I will never buy one that's not full tang as I've had too many handles break on me. A knife with a full tang I can replace the handle fairly easily, otherwise the knife becomes pretty much useless when the handle breaks. It's a bit of a hobby of mine to see how much "bang for my buck" I can get when buying knives that I plan on using as tools. I have always and will always be the cheapskate that would rather buy 2 $50 okayish quality knives then anything over $100. I have a full tang knife I bought for $40 that, other then the handle scales breaking off, I have been using for over 10 years. Many non full tang knives have fallen trying to replace it. :P Cheers!
Wonderful video and points, Matt! I even practice bushcraft and omg, that can be a contentious issue among that crowd! But I agree with you completely. By the way, pretty please do a video on naval boarding axes/belt axes/tomahawks!😁
While fencing epee, I also saw many blades break, particularly older weapons, but I did have a friend who snapped a tang precisely once. So yeah. Great video
Hey Matt, I'm curious on your thoughts of W. E. Fairbairn's Defendu fighting style, thoughts about the dagger he and E. A. Sykes designed, and the Smatchet.
Defendu/defendo or whatever isn't a style; it's a system. It will prepare you to defend yourself from physical attacks in a very rudimentary, fairly effective way, in a relatively short amount of time and with a minimum of long term personal investment, but that's pretty much it. There's no room for growth or any real improvement, it's just a sort of logic tree of "if-then" responses. If all you want or need to do is survive a sudden attack for the few seconds necessary to either disable your attacker or disengage and escape, then Defendu (or LINE, or really any other military-style combatives system) is a decent choice. If you're more interested in training yourself mentally and physically to dominate an opponent in a one on one confrontation, and you have plenty of free time to spend doing it, then I'd recommend boxing, catch wrestling, or pretty much anything else.
Thank you so much for this video! It makes all the sense in the world and now I don't have that little monster on my shoulder telling me I must have full tang all the time.
This is probably the only time ive ever heard "Full Tang" used to refer to the width of the tang and not the length, unless pointed out specificly as "Full Width Tang". This could be a cultural thing ro something, but still weird to hear it used so differently from what im used to. "Full Tang" is from my experience only used for the length of it through the handle/grip.
Interestng Video! If my life would depend on it, i would want to have my sword as over engineered (within reason, of course) as possible. Especially if i had the choice.
I thought the reason why big knifes today often have a full tang was that people were often tried to chop wood to compare knifes and to look at how strong it was build. And with that ususally the construction of a hilt that doesn't come loose or a tang deforming after time consuming "woodwork" was less likely. Also that hilt constuction often is cheaper, easier. I mean sword on sword is a big impact, but correct me if i'm wrong, the opponents sword usually is in his hand and at least gives way a bit. While hacking on wood often doesn't damp the impact as much.
What I would be more concerned with is the length of tang not its width. I would say it is more difficult to produce a hidden tang using modern methods.
Matt, An excellent video as usual. Your point about full-width tangs being stronger than needed is well-taken. But didn't you repeat, in an earlier video, a story about a sword being bent at the tang as a result of running an opponent through? Are stalk tangs more vulnerable to being bent even if, as a practical matter, they're not more vulnerable to snapping? You might also mention in this context that sword-makers used other construction techniques to build robust hilts--something that suggests that hilt strength was a concern. For example, the 1796 light cavalry sabre and the 1796 heavy cavalry sword both have concealed tangs, but they also have those famous ears for additional strength, a feature that was retained on the 1821 cavalry sabre patterns.
Reminds me of the apocryphal anecdote about Ford. He told his employees to check junk yards for his cars and find what parts still worked. He would then make those cheaper as they were obviously over built.
I don't think the tang breaking is what I would be worried about when choosing between a hidden and full width tang, but rather the handle material and the guaranteed knowledge that the tang is in fact the full length of the handle. The best example of this is cheap kitchen knives. I know the full tang knife, even if the slabs come loose is unlikely to break when I am using it. The plastic or even wood handled hidden tang knife with a tang that may or may not even reach a quarter of the way into the handle isn't as confidence inspiring. I've had molded plastic handled kitchen knives break on me, it isn't fun. But even looking at the knives you show here, I would be more likely to choose one of the full tang blades for a similar reasons. The antler handled hunting knife you show is beautiful, but I might be weary of putting it to as heavy use as say the bowie because I might fear that antler splitting and leaving me with a useless or even dangerous blade to use. As for swords, there I would be more worried about vibration dampening and would be more likely to avoid the full tang handle.
in our club we had a couple of prototype feders that had full width tangs and they all broke off the pommels where the tang had to get narrower to fit inside the pommel.
Pretty sure the main reason why it's become a sales-point is that a lot of serial-produced knives, even very expensive knives, are made with these flimsy toothpick-type tangs -- that you don't actually see. I.e., the handle/hilt is massive, but there's no way to tell that someone have basically glued it to a tiny flattened spike. You also get a lot of stamped stuff with threaded tangs, or with flattened tangs that are clamped in the hilt. And you don't see that in the serial-produced stuff until you either break the weapon or take it apart (which also typically would break it). So even though it would be fine for chipping, it would not work well if you were chopping wood with it, etc. Meanwhile, the full-length and width tangs, like on the messer, can give you some of the same issues, simply because they don't flex in the same way any more: all the force is going right through to the hand, which could reveal weakness in the blade (or the hilt) quicker than with a softer tang. The portion after the guard can be too rigid, or too soft as well - regardless of the forge and the technicalities, you don't want the same hardness in the tang as in the blade. If it's too solid, it might even be extremely uncomfortable, or change the characteristics of the handling at an impact. Same is if you peen the tang along the hilt, or attach it at the end - completely different. Imagine an axe with a metal handle: no flex, and that changes the way you can use it. Or a short blade used for thrusting, that actually bounces on a strong impact - it would completely ruin even a very good blade, if the whole sword wasn't stiff enough. Two different uses would maybe favour two different constructions like that. So it's no coincidence that you would avoid having a heavy sword made with a full-width tang, peened maybe three times along the hilt. It just wouldn't be a good idea, because it will transfer all the force on an impact into the middle of the hilt, wreck your arm every time and eventually the weapon as well (instead of letting the force flex all the way through, like on a smaller, somewhat flattened tang). But I'm sure no victorian blade-user, or anyone else, would ever have wanted a threaded, round tang with a nut on the back of the sword.
Done quite a bit of Olympic rules fencing, and blades shearing off right at the top of the tang at the point it meets the guard is actually pretty common in my experience. Don’t see it quite as much as blades breaking in the top third, but it tends to be one of those two places. Whether you consider those tangs to be full width or through is a matter of opinion though; the handle goes around the tang, but the blades are so small in cross section that the tang isn’t that much smaller than the blade.
While there might not be a practical difference in strength, I'd say that a hidden tang sword/knife is more likely to develop a rattle in the grip, with repeated use.
In nine years, two swords broken by the blade (in fact, the same sword, it broke about 15cm from the point, it was repaired in the forge by welded (I don't know the name of that technique in English, sorry) and it broke again two years later about the middle of the blade) and another sword broken just below the cross, just in the limit between the tang and the blade. As a curiosity, a friend of mine broke two swords in the tang, just between the grip and the pommel, both of them.
I wholeheartedly agree Matt! You turned me onto Poshland knives and my first Bowie from them is a concealed tang and I’ve used it to hew off arm width limbs from trees more than once. The hilt isn’t even loose. I’ve also had multiple swords break in sparing in the blade when I partied them, never in the tang. In the context of the medieval swords, I don’t think the issue of the extra mass with full tang would be meaningful because that period’s concealed tang weapons generally sported pommels which would have as much if not more mass than just a wider grip. Just a thought. So, question: full width tangs aren’t of major importance, but would you consider full length tangs to be a more important concern? Many people flat our refuse to use a knife in bushcrafting for example if it doesn’t have a full length tang. I tend to agree depending on the use case of the knife.
Agreed. I recollect an anecdote that I'm sure was from Henry Ford (but I can't seem to track down on google right now), where an engineer told him, very proudly, that one specific part (in my memory it's a bearing, but I may be wrong) never failed, and his response was to source the equivalent part cheaper. I suppose ideally everything should fail at the same time, deemed acceptable by the customer. Damn, I've made the most hamfisted wording of that possible. If someone knows it or can track it down on the web, do share. I'd love to hear it right.
Reminds me of a lot of criticism the webley revolvers get: the system is apparently "inristically weaker than other systems" - though you rarely read of them breaking or coming loose. The webley system is strong enough for what it needs to do, so adding strenght for the price of a slower reload isn't worth it
@Sheldon Robertson Original Webleys will not safely fire modern smokeless rounds, but neither will most other revolvers designed and built in those days. Made of modern materials and with slight updates a modern webley style revolver would no doubt be able to handle most common revolver rounds of today
In my younger days I’ve broken a knife at the tang. Of course, I was throwing a hunting knife not designed to be thrown. The sudden size reduction and right angle at the tang IS a stress concentration point. But if you don’t abuse your tools this should not be an issue.
... so what you're saying is that this is a philosophical difference of opinion between experts since the Bronze Age 😉👍 got it Another great vid 😃 thanks
I would consider a full length tang a full tang, and I think the Messer only has a full width tang is for legal reasons. They needed to pass them off as knives where swords were illegal.
I think there is also a point to be made for the harmonics of a weapon or tool with a full width tang. I enjoy forestry hobbies in addition to sword fighting. And I hate axes with metal handles because of the shock. If anyone has struck something with a pry bar they can tell you how uncomfortable it is. Maby a full width tang would feel fine connecting with a person. Maby it would suck connecting with a shield or breast plate.
I obviously cannot disagree when it comes to sword, as i haven't abused swords enough to actually make any sort of statements about them, but i have broken enough blades in their flimsy tang, when it comes to outdoor knives, to not purchase fixed blade knives without a full tang. It is a security thing.. one less point of failure and if you buy a tool that is supposed to be reliable and not fail you, you might as well spend the few extra bucks and get it right, than to leave it up to chance for the tool to fail you when you need it most.
@@joeallen2354 There isn't much you can do when a blade fails to close to the hilt. Not out in the field. If the tip breaks or it breaks somewhere in the middle, its getting awkward to use, but it will not be a total failure. If a blade snaps right at the hilt, there isn't much you are gonna do anymore with that blade, unless you invest a significant amount of time in tinkering some means to hold the blade to work with it. And i imagine if your blade fails 2 finger wide away from the hilt, at least you can try to use it to defend yourself with it. If your blade fails in the tank, the whole thing is likely to come apart. Guard and all.. and there is nothing left to defend yourself with as you scamper for a secondary blade or frantically look around you hoping to find a discarded weapon. As i said.. i would invest the money in a full tang, even if it rarely happens, based on my experience outdoors with fixed blades. In my experience fixed blades become unusable when they fail in or near the tang. If the actual blade snaps there is always some rest blade, which you can use.
I wonder if the full width thangs have much to do with using a homogenous steel construction where hidden tangs leaned more towards softer steel or iron welded to the blade. It would seem manufacturing at least earlier on might have been more of a deciding factor and then became a gimmick. Maybe the smith was less confident in his welding ability and so decided to go to a full width tang? Maybe it was easier just to cast one type of steel instead of using different grades of steel in the construction of a blade? I wonder if there are many historical records detailing construction of swords and knives beyond just artistic pictures...a blacksmith manual of sorts. I am no expert in this topic, but it is an interesting one.
really the only way to truly get as perfect of steel as possible is to make it laboratory conditions. also full tangs do have some weakness as the pinholes create a weak spot. the threw tang that is peened on is the strongest tang construction because there is no hole in the steel.
I’m making a longsword with a full width tang but that’s because it’s made of wood & I do in fact need the extra strength. I’m going to hide it in the final product so it looks more accurate though.
At the 6:38 mark you show a M21 sabre .. Is the India issued 1796 originally into a 1821 artillery or CAV Type ? Interested if so . Also I have to agree with the thought that perhaps they were trying to make a sort of shock absorber around the handle area by using softer metals .. It makes sense. One bad edge alignment strike and you feel it for some time later .. Tells me that's kind of a structural cop just in a back blast kinda way
Been using Finnish and Swedish knives my entire life, like everyone else here. Have never seen a tang fail. In fact, I didn't even run into that concern until I met my first Cold Steel fanboy in my mid-20s.
I haven't seen a blade break, but I prefer a full width tang, because it is often riveted to the handle. I have seen many handles break or become so loose that I cannot use them.
I get your personal experience with swords breaking being good anecdotal evidence but I do have to point out you guys/gals are playing tag with realistic toys, not putting combat swords through combat stress. I do martial arts, I like sparring, which is what HEMA is. I can learn a lot in sparring but it's not hitting full force and it's nothing like an actual UFC fight where you are trying to hurt the other guy. And that is nothing like a real fight where someone is trying to kill you. Same principle applies, the swords you are wielding are taking damage based the sport of HEMA, not combat stress from full force swings, not being halfsworded through chainmail gaps(hopefully) in full plate joints, etc etc. Also, from the blacksmithing videos I watch it seems HEMA swords are starting to go the way of fencing, designed for most advantageous in the sport of HEMA, not what would be most effective to wield in battle and KILL with. Not even disagreeing with your point, seems reasonable and logical to me. Just pointing out that the stress and damage from real combat would be much different. Unless we bring back gladitorial games or forget how to make gunpowder we'll never know what the actual wear and tear and most likely break points would be. Other random thought, you said a full tang could be considered adding extra weight where it doesn't help much, in the hand. What about balance? I honestly don't know if the extra weight of the tang may make the blade a bit more nimble or if that's something where the weight would have to be more concentrated towards the pommel to have any appreciable effect? Thanx for the video boss. Always entertaining and informative
In modern times there are knives made with "rat tail" tangs, which are very narrow and poorly made, which makes them dangerous. Are there concealed tangs that work safely? Yep. Morakniv makes pretty sturdy concealed tang knives. I think this is why full tang knives have become so popular. You can see that it is a safe knife to use without deconstructing it.
I was thinking that the full tang on my messer probably does a good job of keeping the balance where it needs to be. Considering how big the blade is and that it has no pommel.
This is coming someone who has a tiny amount of smithing experience. From what I know a successful forge weld is an incredibly strong bond that’s different from sticking one piece to another (kinda like glueing). It’s much closer to actually melding both pieces into one full piece of material. So as long as the weld is of high quality I don’t think it’d cause much of a structural issue.
As long as the tang is ~2/3 the width of the grip, it’s personal preference in my book. Length is more important than width, you just don’t want a toothpick tang. Concealed tangs can have some benefits in very cold environments, and perhaps with overall weight and balance, or with shock transmitted to your hand. I just don’t care for the 1/3 length and/or pencil skinny tangs. As mentioned by others, many “full” tangs are highly skeletonized, anyway.
As an anecdote on this I have had a tang break on a sports fencing sabre. That said it broke at the shoulder where it joined the blade. Was fun though as didnt know it had broken until I came en garde and the blade basically fell off and the whole thing came apart leaving me holding just the handle. I believe it broke thanks to a hard strong to strong hit right at the foible but who knows may have been a bad temper as was relatively new blade
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that the tang was as strong as it needed to be. A bunch of the emphasis on full width tangs now is a misplaced belief that all knives need to be able to split a log.
I think you are right. People from the modern outdoors tradition, seem to misuse certain tools. Then claim they break because the tool is not well made. So manufactures just make them stronger than they need to be.
@@Rosetheromani Yeah, users and reviewers create a feedback loop that causes manufacturers to overbuild until there is an inevitable reset masqueraded as a minimalist direction. Also because the same users then complain about the weight or cost.
I have seen broken tangs and these were all of the single narrow rod type that looks like a long bolt. I agree that a full width tang is probably overkill but a tang with a little bit of width to it is probably prudent.
I believe the full width tang thing became so popular in the modern day as a direct reaction to the cheap "wallhanger" swords that were the norm up until like the 90's when more historically accurate usable swords started becoming more prevalent. When the norm are cheap "swords" with welded on threaded rods through the handle held on by a cheap nut, a full tang becomes a sign of quality, or at least usability. Nowadays, quality of manufacture has increased massively, in both material and attention to the fact that they're intended for use. So manufacturers can lean back towards sub-full width tang designs that are more historically accurate and people wont shy away thinking they're cheaply produced. There's my 2cents, if you disagree let me know! But be polite please. Cheers!
I think you need to factor in steel economy. For a blacksmith, it is easy to draw an inch of steel out in a tang and have a 5 inch handle. It is also simple to mount a guard (poke a hole through a piece of iron and stick the tang through). Let's not forget, repairing a handle like this is basically wrapping a piece of cord around the tang. You do not need grinding technology, and you use less steel. For a full tang; you use much more steel; and you need grinding technology (files will do). Full tangs will in theory be stronger; but they will also mess with the balance more. I believe both have pro's and con's, and both handle mounting methods should be used when best fit.
I think full tang is used more to describe a tang that goes the full length of the handle rather than the width of the handle. The common use of cheap Chinese rat tail tangs in many modern knives has led to many blades falling out of the handle. Basically if the tang runs the length of the handle it probably won't break or separate. If it only goes an inch into the handle regardless of its width it will probably fail to stay in one piece under heavy use.
I asked this question concerning khukuri knives. Overwhelming, customers requested full tang. They said If the wood of the handle breaks that they can still use it on a survival situation. Personally I like stick tangs.
I wasn't aware tangs are usually welded to the blade, so I thought making a hidden tang would require some extra work. Kind of disappointed. I wanted them to be better, since they are very cool, and that brings me to one reason you would want a full tang: aesthetics. That's a very legitimate reason to have them. You also could argue you don't need a pommel, or just a smaller one, to balance the sword, but I'm pretty sure there are loads of weapons with full width tangs with pommels and weapons with hidden tangs without one to prove me wrong.
I think the modern need for full tang knives came along peoples desire to beat them through twisted oak logs full of knots, which does not seem to have been something people did alot of just a couple of decades ago and earlier.
If there is a need nowadays, it's either because manufacturers don't know how to keep the tang soft, or because the users don't know how and when to use knives. This "need" hasn't existed before, despite knives having been used more and the materials having been worse.
I think the length of the tang is more important. It has to go past the point where you are applying the most leverage, usually this means at least one hand length down.
I learned something very important from this video: there was a guy named Charles Reeves that was a real money hungry POS. As far as full width tangs: I think they're just easier the manufacture - you slap a couple slabs of wood on each side and grind it into a handle. In the earliest days it might have been considered "cheap" if your sword's tang wasn't concealed, and noble to have a more sophisticated concealed tang, with a beautiful handle all around it... just speculating.
Without modern mass production methods a full tang knife isn't easy to make to a high standard, note that working tools generally had a hidden tang or a socket whereas an eating knife was more likely to have a full tang and exotic materials to show of your status at the dining table.
Thanks, that was interesting. I was wondering if there are disadvantages of full width tangs and basically came up with the same conclusions: More expensive, usually not required, can mess with the balance and adds weight. However, as far as knives are concerned I have a lot of bad experiences with central- tang constructions, broken tangs and more commonly constructions which are coming loose resulting in an artfully made but useless or bad item which is not easy to fix without replacing the whole handle. So I personaly think, at least for heavy duty outdoor-knives which are meant to be used for a very long time (it really does not matter for very cheap ones), the full tang construction might actually be the better, more reliable solution.
@@snakeoveer1046 Exactly...the rounded corner geometry gives the stresses an "out"... You're exactly right. This is why so many cheap overseas copies of good knives fail...suck HT and geometry.
Full width may be a disadvantage sometimes. If grips are not perfectly matched, those edges where tang meets grip on both sides can potentially cause bruises. Same with rivets of that grip.
I don't think it necessarily matters about strength but it definitely plays a role in guard rattle and your grip loosening which I absolutely loathe.. I've never had a trainer last more than a week without something getting loose and then I'm having to tighten or tape something and it never really lasts that long. With a full tang at least you don't have to worry about all that noise and looseness as much
My experience is that although the tang is stronger, the handle becomes less durable. Two pieces of wood stuck to the tang by nothing but rivets. They tend to come lose and eventually fall off. With a hidden tang encircled by handle, the handle materials material strength adds to the structure of the handle.
![KAYTRANADA - Witchy (feat. Childish Gambino) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jGK3YVmGZ3Y/mqdefault.jpg)
They're much more flavorsome. You could say they're tangy.
Dude....
You wanker, you nearly killed me with water....I approve.
Delicious....
tangible tho?
Boo
In below zero weather (Fahrenheit)
I have had my hand stuck to a knife with a full width tang.
Scandinavian knives don't create that inconvenience.
But they tend to slip in hand. While some knives are fairly sharp and some are less pukko, saami or folded ones like Swede, are ALWAYS close to the razor sharpness. So yeah, a small one when slips (no guard or dull chisel) you can have a 1" thick gloves but this blade will bite you anyway.
@@HanSolo__
Having condensation on your hand after pulling it out of a glove when it comes in contact with the exposed steel on the tang in sub zero weather is kind of like getting your tongue stuck to a flag pole.
(Not that I would know!) : )
@@A_Meek_lake_Dweller Yes I know. We tend to have lower than minus 30 Celsius in my country. Years back it was every winter for at least 1 month. With other winyer months not much warmer. Now it happens once in 2-3 years and lasts no longer than 3 weeks.
MrKansai1 teghe In cold weather/ with cold hands only drawcut never pushcut , that is the idea of many northern knifes. If you need to stab with a small bladed pukko inverse grip put thumb at back of grip or just put thumb on blade in regular grip and angle knife upwards.
The full width tang is so the customer can see that it is a full length tang.
Yup. And what the customer won't see is that the maker might very well have drilled a lot of holes in that full width tang to reduce weight, making the construction no more strong than a hidden tang anyway.
varškėsapkepas that is true, but I’ve seen more than one hidden or rat’s tail “full tang” knives turn out to be half length tangs.
Esp. for cheaper products like knives, that's very likely. I myself have purchased a cheap tool with a plastic/rubber handle that should have had a solid metal core, and it turned out the metal rod only went 1/2 way down the handle and under stress the handle bent in my hand as the plastic/rubber alone couldn't handle it. So visual proof of the presence of the metal all the way through the handle is good from a consumer and marketing standpoint.
I've had many cheap kitchen full width tang knives, right at the tang, because they've had holes in the tang.
I have many unpopular opinions on full tangs.
Full tangs in knives are a hugely successful marketing idea born out of the economics of contemporary knifemaking. Frankly, for all but the largest manufacturers, it's cheaper to grind a blade from flat stock and adhere two thin scales to the metal than it is to forge it to shape and construct a hilt by drilling a hole in a piece of wood often costing more than the blade steel assembling it with bolster and ferrule, and fixing the tang through the whole thing with a nut or by peening.
Some people criticise Mora's hidden tangs for being weak yet the only evidence seems to come from a few videos designed to break the plastic, even under the abuse that these budget knives take the rare instances of actual breakage are far more likely to occur in the exposed blade than the handle.
As an interesting tangent, there are three types of tangs you find in kukris. You find full-width tangs modernly, usually in knives intended for Western consumers, rat-tail tangs are traditionally common, and you also in some traditional kukris find partial-length tangs.
The partial tangs are found, oddly, both in fighting kukris and in a lot of working-class kukris. In the case of the working-class kukris they just expect that eventually the handle will crack and break, and they'll just have to go back to the village Kami and he'll make a new hilt. Because they expect to have to replace it they will just heat the tang and burn it into the new handle, often using laha, a Himalayan tree sap used as glue. This technique gives great fit, but it doesn't result in the most durable handle. There are also some fighting kukris with this type of tang, like the Hanshee, which is a kukri with an especially curved blade. Too curved to be used easily for utility work. These were high class kukris, not cheap, and they were made with a "cheap" tang. The reason in their case was so it balanced a particular way.
They will also burn in full-length tangs, and this type of tang is quite common, as partial tangs will crack handles. This tendency is also why kukris have bolsters. Japanese blades often have bolsters (the habaki) but usually to fit it to the scabbard. Kukris have one that goes around the top of the handle to keep the blade from cracking it.
Full-width tangs are mainly on blades intended for westerners who have come to believe that only a full-width tang is adequately strong. Admittedly, a full-width tang on a kukri is going to be very durable because you don't have the possibility of the tang and blade moving inside the handle and cracking it (I do have a kukri that has just a little play inside, so certain motions result in a slight clicking feeling), but it is not common for a full-length rat-tail to break the handle, not when it's made well.
Another note: a full-length but not full-width tang does require certain construction to be durable. Usually they will have a very tightly fit handle, and then a tightly fit plate or pommel that has been peened on. Now, I think some of the reason people think full-width tangs are important is because there have been times when there were lots of rat-tail tangs were on the market that were poorly made, and didn't have proper handle/hilt construction, and these knives broke apart. Maybe not because the tang broke, but because the tang broke the handle.
Full-width tang knife: I'm more durable
Concealed tang knife: I'm lighter and I'm as durable as I need to be
Balisong: ...what's a 'tang'?
Factually accurate AND funny. You have earned my respect.
Nowadays full tangs are certainly treated like a selling point. Often it will be mentioned, that full tangs are ARGUABLY the strongest type of construction. However, in most cases sections will be cut out to reduce weight, so the tang won't even be all that full.
There is one advantage, though. Should the handle scales come loose, the tang will still work as a handle on it's own. Less comfortable, but usable.
Alot easier to leather / cloth wrap a full tang aswell, if you need to.
@Uncle Randy. I wasn't talking about fixing.
Full width means at they are at least not screwing you over with a spot welded rat tail tang. You can't tell whether a hidden full length tang is that just by looking at it.
Full tangs got poor weight distribution. Not the best option for short knives.
With modern glues full width tangs are maybe better, the older ones have always loose handles and feel cheap
Width of the tang doesn't need to be full, as long as it is housed correctly in the correct wood type. Length of the tang needs to be full, or almost full though, to minimize lever forces interacting with the wood housing and tang in unwanted ways, which can cause the wood to erode gradually from rubbing actions inside.
About the iron tangs forge welded to steel blades, this is fine and actually beneficial, as tangs are annealed, blued or softened by heat in some way usually in tools, swords and knives. This is why you don't see tang breaking, because they cant break, they would bend under pressure, not snap or break like the higher hardness blade will.
Basically everything I was wanting to say in regards this video. Thanks mate.
@@horuslux8441 Welcome.
Another reason to use an iron tang is that steel, especially quality high carbon steel was more expensive than iron or mild steel.
@@garethbaus5471 That's true it probably saved them a valuable resource that we today take for granted because ''ts everywhere.
I've broken a Nepalese kukri at the tang before.
(10:02) "That's a tang....ent."
Another advantage of the full tang is that even if both scales came off you still have a useable tool. Less comfortable perhaps, but useable.
I make full tang knives - not for marketing, but because I believe they are better for the Bushcraft knives I make. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not trying to fool anyone.
My question is whether the split wood on a full width tang is more fragile than a hollowed out or glued handle. I have seen a lot of broken, riveted handles in my time.
I suspect nowadays 'full tang' is meant to differentiate them from crappy rat tangs.
This. Modern brazed-on rat tails are what we try to avoid by buying full tang. If I *know* the maker is trustworthy a narrow tang is OK. If I don't I would rather see some steel.
It's the short rat tangs that are bad where there is only an inch or so into an too brittle handle like some Finnish big brand kitchen knives or well known Spanish hunting knife makers cheaper knifes or any dirt cheap knife.
Use magnet to find out how long tang it is.
I have a full tang knife, which is too heavy in the handle ,which would have been a great knife if it had had a tapered tang.
Yeah, but this video is about full width tangs vs full length through-tangs. Both go the full length of the hilt.
with knifemaking, they like to market a "full width tang" for strength but the real reason for choosing that construction is it is faster and requires less skill to get a perfect fit and finish. thus reducing production costs and increasing profit.
another advantage is that if you damage the handle scales it's relatively simple to make news ones rather than replace the knife.
Yes, important point. The flush, sanded down pre-made billet sized tangs are like that. Imo, neither pretty, or very strong. But better than a spot-welded tang, of course.
Another point about full tang knives is that they are sometimes skeletonized inside the grip to save weight and/or make them less handle heavy. The only way to know for sure how much metal is in the grip, is to remove the grip or put it in an x-ray machine.
*Relevant and Supportive Comment*
(Man, turning a lawn over with a shovel sure makes your back ache....)
Colin Cleveland I live in commiforia, there is no moss involved.
Though we do put up bird feeders and such, and occasionally we leave hair trimmings as insulation for their nests.
But yeah, dry soil with a high clay content is almost like rock.
Did the garden at a rental property (that had grown over for 4 years) last year. I know your pain!
i tend to prefer them because of the number of crappy rat tail tangs that bent on me. you can see what youre getting without disasembling the handle
This... I doubt someone selling a blade to you would let you take it apart to see if there product is cutting corners somewhere.
I think full width tang makes sense for outdoor/survival knives as they are sometimes used for tasks not typical for a knife, such as prying or hand/footholds for climbing etc. It's also probably easier to manufacture especially if you're starting from flat metal bars. For weapons though I agree it's unnecessary.
Or using them as a hammer.
That goes along with something else. I'm part of a blacksmithing group, and so many people are convinced that knives MUST be made of space age super steel or else they're worthless. They can't believe that the material knives and swords were made of during the middle ages was actually inferior to modern mild steel, and that a knife made of mild to medium carbon steel is a serviceable tool.
I have an M1 bayonet that was likely made in 1944. When I looked it over for the first time I was rather surprised how soft the steel was. It seemed just above mild steel in hardness.
@@themastermason1 Mediveal steel blades had a combination of high carbon, low carbon, wrought iron, and had numerous small and large inclusions. They were made of bloomery steel that had to be forge worked to beat the impurities out and mix the carbon into the metal; that was never completely successful. They didn't start making crucible steel in Europe until the industrial revolution, although crucible steel was being made in India during the Viking age (which is what the real Ulfberts were made of).
When I served in the California National Guard, I saw many M9 (Phrobis III) knives break off at the tang. Granted, they had hollow "survival" hilts and were made of stainless steel... and they were probably being abused, but it does happen quite often among knives, if not swords.
Well, stainless steel does crack.. add holes to it, and no wonder it can break.
@@joeallen2354 Yes, that would make them tangless. I read somewhere (had quick look but can't find it) that Romans originally used a tangless xiphos sword design where the blade was riveted to the handle at the hilt. That could break at the rivets so they adopted the Celtiberian tanged sword design.
Yes...those stub tang knives are junk...
Uncle Randy you’ve seen them, you just didn’t realize it because the tang isn’t full length and isn’t very visible. If you shined a flashlight inside the hollow portion, you would see a nut on the end of the tang. There are a few hollow handled knives that were milled from one piece of steel, but most aren’t made that way.
Hollow steel tube hilts or handles on any tool (knives, hatchets, hammers, shovels) that will experience fair amounts of stress (chopping / hammering) are rubbish - in my experience they almost always bend or break.
When I was looking into buying a Malaysian parang a few years ago, I remember reading somewhere (or perhaps it was. youtube video) that the narrow tangs on the parang are preferred as it helps to keep cutting shock from being transferred to the hand. Not sure how much there is to this, but I can certainly say that I find no shock to my hand from cutting with my parang at all.
I doubt it. The felt shock depends on the grip design (protrusions/uncomfortable for your hand...) and on blade dynamics (how it vibrates on impact and mass distribution).
What you gain from an enclosed design is protection from your sweat, which can damage the tang...
Knife use case- camp knives are often used to hammer with the pommel. For that case, a full tang seems useful.
i used my camp knife with hidden tang for everything teenage boy can do with it, and still 30 years after i got it from my father theres nothing loose with it i banged nails in, thrown it at trees, chopped wood and even fallen small trees (it has nice saw on back side that was era of gigantic rambo knives my is smaller with 20-25cm blade and more sensible but it has saw)
Its easier to over engineer something than to engineer it just the right amount
We humans are quite silly critters. Marketing psychology has a MUCH greater effect on sales than anyone (other than marketing firms) would like to admit. I am a folding knife reviewer (and some fixed blades) and I hear the "full tang is best" refrain over and over and over, it is said so much that it takes on an air of truth without anyone really thinking through if it is needed or not. This is a good video to show that yes it is stronger technically speaking but not generally necessary and sometimes a negative to put a full tang handle on sword. So, most certainly, on a 4 or 5 inch fixed blade the necessity of a full tang is even less.
Very interesting points. I would say however that its only really a sales gimmick when talking about products over a certain quality. I've used a fair share of cheap knives and will say that I will never buy one that's not full tang as I've had too many handles break on me. A knife with a full tang I can replace the handle fairly easily, otherwise the knife becomes pretty much useless when the handle breaks.
It's a bit of a hobby of mine to see how much "bang for my buck" I can get when buying knives that I plan on using as tools. I have always and will always be the cheapskate that would rather buy 2 $50 okayish quality knives then anything over $100.
I have a full tang knife I bought for $40 that, other then the handle scales breaking off, I have been using for over 10 years. Many non full tang knives have fallen trying to replace it. :P
Cheers!
Wonderful video and points, Matt! I even practice bushcraft and omg, that can be a contentious issue among that crowd! But I agree with you completely. By the way, pretty please do a video on naval boarding axes/belt axes/tomahawks!😁
As a bladesmith, I always draw the hardness out of my tangs after heat treat. It's a common practice among makers especially on bigger knives.
While fencing epee, I also saw many blades break, particularly older weapons, but I did have a friend who snapped a tang precisely once. So yeah. Great video
I will love to see that rusty saber after you clean it because as right now it looks beautiful so I just can imagine how pretty it could be.
A missed opportunity for a "stiffness" double entendre...
P E N E T R A T I O N
Hey Matt,
I'm curious on your thoughts of W. E. Fairbairn's Defendu fighting style, thoughts about the dagger he and E. A. Sykes designed, and the Smatchet.
Great idea, I'd also love to watch that!
Defendu/defendo or whatever isn't a style; it's a system. It will prepare you to defend yourself from physical attacks in a very rudimentary, fairly effective way, in a relatively short amount of time and with a minimum of long term personal investment, but that's pretty much it. There's no room for growth or any real improvement, it's just a sort of logic tree of "if-then" responses. If all you want or need to do is survive a sudden attack for the few seconds necessary to either disable your attacker or disengage and escape, then Defendu (or LINE, or really any other military-style combatives system) is a decent choice. If you're more interested in training yourself mentally and physically to dominate an opponent in a one on one confrontation, and you have plenty of free time to spend doing it, then I'd recommend boxing, catch wrestling, or pretty much anything else.
I'd definitely be interested in the Smatchet.
Very interesting!
My largest kukri, which is a beast btw has a tangish little knob that's been holding on tight for 150 years. Heh
Thank you so much for this video! It makes all the sense in the world and now I don't have that little monster on my shoulder telling me I must have full tang all the time.
This is probably the only time ive ever heard "Full Tang" used to refer to the width of the tang and not the length, unless pointed out specificly as "Full Width Tang". This could be a cultural thing ro something, but still weird to hear it used so differently from what im used to. "Full Tang" is from my experience only used for the length of it through the handle/grip.
Exactly, I've always called full width tang blades Slab Handled blades because they use handle slabs instead of a full handle.
In the US, "Full Tang" describes a Full Width, Full Length Tang.
This kind of video was much needed, thank you for shining a nuanced light on the full tang obsession!
Interestng Video!
If my life would depend on it, i would want to have my sword as over engineered (within reason, of course) as possible. Especially if i had the choice.
All well and good 'till fatigue sets in.
I thought the reason why big knifes today often have a full tang was that people were often tried to chop wood to compare knifes and to look at how strong it was build. And with that ususally the construction of a hilt that doesn't come loose or a tang deforming after time consuming "woodwork" was less likely. Also that hilt constuction often is cheaper, easier.
I mean sword on sword is a big impact, but correct me if i'm wrong, the opponents sword usually is in his hand and at least gives way a bit. While hacking on wood often doesn't damp the impact as much.
And even in the Bronze Age, they didn't always use full-width tangs, and some of them didn't even have what we would call a "tang".
What I would be more concerned with is the length of tang not its width. I would say it is more difficult to produce a hidden tang using modern methods.
Matt,
An excellent video as usual. Your point about full-width tangs being stronger than needed is well-taken. But didn't you repeat, in an earlier video, a story about a sword being bent at the tang as a result of running an opponent through? Are stalk tangs more vulnerable to being bent even if, as a practical matter, they're not more vulnerable to snapping?
You might also mention in this context that sword-makers used other construction techniques to build robust hilts--something that suggests that hilt strength was a concern. For example, the 1796 light cavalry sabre and the 1796 heavy cavalry sword both have concealed tangs, but they also have those famous ears for additional strength, a feature that was retained on the 1821 cavalry sabre patterns.
Reminds me of the apocryphal anecdote about Ford. He told his employees to check junk yards for his cars and find what parts still worked. He would then make those cheaper as they were obviously over built.
I don't think the tang breaking is what I would be worried about when choosing between a hidden and full width tang, but rather the handle material and the guaranteed knowledge that the tang is in fact the full length of the handle. The best example of this is cheap kitchen knives. I know the full tang knife, even if the slabs come loose is unlikely to break when I am using it. The plastic or even wood handled hidden tang knife with a tang that may or may not even reach a quarter of the way into the handle isn't as confidence inspiring. I've had molded plastic handled kitchen knives break on me, it isn't fun.
But even looking at the knives you show here, I would be more likely to choose one of the full tang blades for a similar reasons. The antler handled hunting knife you show is beautiful, but I might be weary of putting it to as heavy use as say the bowie because I might fear that antler splitting and leaving me with a useless or even dangerous blade to use.
As for swords, there I would be more worried about vibration dampening and would be more likely to avoid the full tang handle.
in our club we had a couple of prototype feders that had full width tangs and they all broke off the pommels where the tang had to get narrower to fit inside the pommel.
Thats one hell of a patu behind you!
Does corrosion play any role in covering up the tang? I imagine sweaty hands can mess up the metal quite a bit.
Pretty sure the main reason why it's become a sales-point is that a lot of serial-produced knives, even very expensive knives, are made with these flimsy toothpick-type tangs -- that you don't actually see. I.e., the handle/hilt is massive, but there's no way to tell that someone have basically glued it to a tiny flattened spike. You also get a lot of stamped stuff with threaded tangs, or with flattened tangs that are clamped in the hilt. And you don't see that in the serial-produced stuff until you either break the weapon or take it apart (which also typically would break it). So even though it would be fine for chipping, it would not work well if you were chopping wood with it, etc. Meanwhile, the full-length and width tangs, like on the messer, can give you some of the same issues, simply because they don't flex in the same way any more: all the force is going right through to the hand, which could reveal weakness in the blade (or the hilt) quicker than with a softer tang. The portion after the guard can be too rigid, or too soft as well - regardless of the forge and the technicalities, you don't want the same hardness in the tang as in the blade. If it's too solid, it might even be extremely uncomfortable, or change the characteristics of the handling at an impact. Same is if you peen the tang along the hilt, or attach it at the end - completely different. Imagine an axe with a metal handle: no flex, and that changes the way you can use it. Or a short blade used for thrusting, that actually bounces on a strong impact - it would completely ruin even a very good blade, if the whole sword wasn't stiff enough. Two different uses would maybe favour two different constructions like that.
So it's no coincidence that you would avoid having a heavy sword made with a full-width tang, peened maybe three times along the hilt. It just wouldn't be a good idea, because it will transfer all the force on an impact into the middle of the hilt, wreck your arm every time and eventually the weapon as well (instead of letting the force flex all the way through, like on a smaller, somewhat flattened tang).
But I'm sure no victorian blade-user, or anyone else, would ever have wanted a threaded, round tang with a nut on the back of the sword.
Done quite a bit of Olympic rules fencing, and blades shearing off right at the top of the tang at the point it meets the guard is actually pretty common in my experience. Don’t see it quite as much as blades breaking in the top third, but it tends to be one of those two places. Whether you consider those tangs to be full width or through is a matter of opinion though; the handle goes around the tang, but the blades are so small in cross section that the tang isn’t that much smaller than the blade.
While there might not be a practical difference in strength, I'd say that a hidden tang sword/knife is more likely to develop a rattle in the grip, with repeated use.
In nine years, two swords broken by the blade (in fact, the same sword, it broke about 15cm from the point, it was repaired in the forge by welded (I don't know the name of that technique in English, sorry) and it broke again two years later about the middle of the blade) and another sword broken just below the cross, just in the limit between the tang and the blade.
As a curiosity, a friend of mine broke two swords in the tang, just between the grip and the pommel, both of them.
I wholeheartedly agree Matt! You turned me onto Poshland knives and my first Bowie from them is a concealed tang and I’ve used it to hew off arm width limbs from trees more than once. The hilt isn’t even loose. I’ve also had multiple swords break in sparing in the blade when I partied them, never in the tang.
In the context of the medieval swords, I don’t think the issue of the extra mass with full tang would be meaningful because that period’s concealed tang weapons generally sported pommels which would have as much if not more mass than just a wider grip. Just a thought.
So, question: full width tangs aren’t of major importance, but would you consider full length tangs to be a more important concern? Many people flat our refuse to use a knife in bushcrafting for example if it doesn’t have a full length tang. I tend to agree depending on the use case of the knife.
I just really like the visuals of a messer :oP
I had a replica sword break in the tang when I was using it - but when we opened up leather wrap the tang had been spot welded on in only two places.
Agreed. I recollect an anecdote that I'm sure was from Henry Ford (but I can't seem to track down on google right now), where an engineer told him, very proudly, that one specific part (in my memory it's a bearing, but I may be wrong) never failed, and his response was to source the equivalent part cheaper. I suppose ideally everything should fail at the same time, deemed acceptable by the customer.
Damn, I've made the most hamfisted wording of that possible. If someone knows it or can track it down on the web, do share. I'd love to hear it right.
Reminds me of a lot of criticism the webley revolvers get: the system is apparently "inristically weaker than other systems" - though you rarely read of them breaking or coming loose.
The webley system is strong enough for what it needs to do, so adding strenght for the price of a slower reload isn't worth it
@Sheldon Robertson Original Webleys will not safely fire modern smokeless rounds, but neither will most other revolvers designed and built in those days. Made of modern materials and with slight updates a modern webley style revolver would no doubt be able to handle most common revolver rounds of today
Very interesting. These are points I never considered. Good video, thanks.
In my younger days I’ve broken a knife at the tang. Of course, I was throwing a hunting knife not designed to be thrown. The sudden size reduction and right angle at the tang IS a stress concentration point. But if you don’t abuse your tools this should not be an issue.
I rather like flat full tangs because it’s really easy to make new handle scales so I can get custom appearance and ergonomics.
... so what you're saying is that this is a philosophical difference of opinion between experts since the Bronze Age 😉👍 got it
Another great vid 😃 thanks
Am I? Am I? I am!
You are, therefore you am.
I would consider a full length tang a full tang, and I think the Messer only has a full width tang is for legal reasons. They needed to pass them off as knives where swords were illegal.
Lol nice pun Matt at 10:00
How do you patent something that's been in use for 1000's of years?
I suppose Mr Reeves also tried to patent the wheel at the same time then.
Contemporary to the Rollin White patent of drilling a hole through a revolver cylinder lol.
I think there is also a point to be made for the harmonics of a weapon or tool with a full width tang. I enjoy forestry hobbies in addition to sword fighting. And I hate axes with metal handles because of the shock. If anyone has struck something with a pry bar they can tell you how uncomfortable it is. Maby a full width tang would feel fine connecting with a person. Maby it would suck connecting with a shield or breast plate.
"... that's a TANGent..."
Biggest problem that I'd have with that Langmesser is the sudden section change at the quillion, known scarf welds to pop as well.
I obviously cannot disagree when it comes to sword, as i haven't abused swords enough to actually make any sort of statements about them, but i have broken enough blades in their flimsy tang, when it comes to outdoor knives, to not purchase fixed blade knives without a full tang. It is a security thing.. one less point of failure and if you buy a tool that is supposed to be reliable and not fail you, you might as well spend the few extra bucks and get it right, than to leave it up to chance for the tool to fail you when you need it most.
@@joeallen2354 There isn't much you can do when a blade fails to close to the hilt. Not out in the field. If the tip breaks or it breaks somewhere in the middle, its getting awkward to use, but it will not be a total failure. If a blade snaps right at the hilt, there isn't much you are gonna do anymore with that blade, unless you invest a significant amount of time in tinkering some means to hold the blade to work with it.
And i imagine if your blade fails 2 finger wide away from the hilt, at least you can try to use it to defend yourself with it. If your blade fails in the tank, the whole thing is likely to come apart. Guard and all.. and there is nothing left to defend yourself with as you scamper for a secondary blade or frantically look around you hoping to find a discarded weapon.
As i said.. i would invest the money in a full tang, even if it rarely happens, based on my experience outdoors with fixed blades. In my experience fixed blades become unusable when they fail in or near the tang. If the actual blade snaps there is always some rest blade, which you can use.
Very interesting video. I had never considered using 2 different metals to make a sword stronger!
Some would say tougher, not stronger.
I wonder if the full width thangs have much to do with using a homogenous steel construction where hidden tangs leaned more towards softer steel or iron welded to the blade. It would seem manufacturing at least earlier on might have been more of a deciding factor and then became a gimmick. Maybe the smith was less confident in his welding ability and so decided to go to a full width tang? Maybe it was easier just to cast one type of steel instead of using different grades of steel in the construction of a blade? I wonder if there are many historical records detailing construction of swords and knives beyond just artistic pictures...a blacksmith manual of sorts. I am no expert in this topic, but it is an interesting one.
Why full width tang? Because today we have lawyers, and lawyers are scary.
Not nearly enough likes for your comment!
Hi
really the only way to truly get as perfect of steel as possible is to make it laboratory conditions. also full tangs do have some weakness as the pinholes create a weak spot. the threw tang that is peened on is the strongest tang construction because there is no hole in the steel.
The British 1804 naval cutlass also had a scarf welded iron tang Matt.
I’m making a longsword with a full width tang but that’s because it’s made of wood & I do in fact need the extra strength. I’m going to hide it in the final product so it looks more accurate though.
At the 6:38 mark you show a M21 sabre .. Is the India issued 1796 originally into a 1821 artillery or CAV Type ?
Interested if so .
Also I have to agree with the thought that perhaps they were trying to make a sort of shock absorber around the handle area by using softer metals .. It makes sense. One bad edge alignment strike and you feel it for some time later .. Tells me that's kind of a structural cop just in a back blast kinda way
Been using Finnish and Swedish knives my entire life, like everyone else here. Have never seen a tang fail. In fact, I didn't even run into that concern until I met my first Cold Steel fanboy in my mid-20s.
A friend of me had the tang of his Celtic sword broken just above the pommel. We were very surprised it breaking there.
This man has all the superdry shirts in the world
I haven't seen a blade break, but I prefer a full width tang, because it is often riveted to the handle. I have seen many handles break or become so loose that I cannot use them.
One of the first swords I owned was an 1853, Charles Reeves pattern, and even though they may not be stronger, they don't come lose.
I get your personal experience with swords breaking being good anecdotal evidence but I do have to point out you guys/gals are playing tag with realistic toys, not putting combat swords through combat stress.
I do martial arts, I like sparring, which is what HEMA is. I can learn a lot in sparring but it's not hitting full force and it's nothing like an actual UFC fight where you are trying to hurt the other guy. And that is nothing like a real fight where someone is trying to kill you.
Same principle applies, the swords you are wielding are taking damage based the sport of HEMA, not combat stress from full force swings, not being halfsworded through chainmail gaps(hopefully) in full plate joints, etc etc.
Also, from the blacksmithing videos I watch it seems HEMA swords are starting to go the way of fencing, designed for most advantageous in the sport of HEMA, not what would be most effective to wield in battle and KILL with.
Not even disagreeing with your point, seems reasonable and logical to me. Just pointing out that the stress and damage from real combat would be much different. Unless we bring back gladitorial games or forget how to make gunpowder we'll never know what the actual wear and tear and most likely break points would be.
Other random thought, you said a full tang could be considered adding extra weight where it doesn't help much, in the hand. What about balance? I honestly don't know if the extra weight of the tang may make the blade a bit more nimble or if that's something where the weight would have to be more concentrated towards the pommel to have any appreciable effect?
Thanx for the video boss. Always entertaining and informative
In modern times there are knives made with "rat tail" tangs, which are very narrow and poorly made, which makes them dangerous. Are there concealed tangs that work safely? Yep. Morakniv makes pretty sturdy concealed tang knives. I think this is why full tang knives have become so popular. You can see that it is a safe knife to use without deconstructing it.
I was thinking that the full tang on my messer probably does a good job of keeping the balance where it needs to be. Considering how big the blade is and that it has no pommel.
This is coming someone who has a tiny amount of smithing experience. From what I know a successful forge weld is an incredibly strong bond that’s different from sticking one piece to another (kinda like glueing). It’s much closer to actually melding both pieces into one full piece of material. So as long as the weld is of high quality I don’t think it’d cause much of a structural issue.
But i need the 8-inch thick full tang on my Bowie knife, so i can baton a 300 foot redwood tree for survival.
Axe, what's an axe?
As long as the tang is ~2/3 the width of the grip, it’s personal preference in my book. Length is more important than width, you just don’t want a toothpick tang. Concealed tangs can have some benefits in very cold environments, and perhaps with overall weight and balance, or with shock transmitted to your hand. I just don’t care for the 1/3 length and/or pencil skinny tangs. As mentioned by others, many “full” tangs are highly skeletonized, anyway.
As an anecdote on this I have had a tang break on a sports fencing sabre. That said it broke at the shoulder where it joined the blade. Was fun though as didnt know it had broken until I came en garde and the blade basically fell off and the whole thing came apart leaving me holding just the handle.
I believe it broke thanks to a hard strong to strong hit right at the foible but who knows may have been a bad temper as was relatively new blade
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that the tang was as strong as it needed to be. A bunch of the emphasis on full width tangs now is a misplaced belief that all knives need to be able to split a log.
I think you are right. People from the modern outdoors tradition, seem to misuse certain tools. Then claim they break because the tool is not well made. So manufactures just make them stronger than they need to be.
@@Rosetheromani Yeah, users and reviewers create a feedback loop that causes manufacturers to overbuild until there is an inevitable reset masqueraded as a minimalist direction. Also because the same users then complain about the weight or cost.
Matt, where did you get that compound handled harpoon shaped blade? I am LOVING that knife! 😍
I'd like to know that as well
I have seen broken tangs and these were all of the single narrow rod type that looks like a long bolt. I agree that a full width tang is probably overkill but a tang with a little bit of width to it is probably prudent.
I believe the full width tang thing became so popular in the modern day as a direct reaction to the cheap "wallhanger" swords that were the norm up until like the 90's when more historically accurate usable swords started becoming more prevalent. When the norm are cheap "swords" with welded on threaded rods through the handle held on by a cheap nut, a full tang becomes a sign of quality, or at least usability. Nowadays, quality of manufacture has increased massively, in both material and attention to the fact that they're intended for use. So manufacturers can lean back towards sub-full width tang designs that are more historically accurate and people wont shy away thinking they're cheaply produced. There's my 2cents, if you disagree let me know! But be polite please. Cheers!
I think you need to factor in steel economy. For a blacksmith, it is easy to draw an inch of steel out in a tang and have a 5 inch handle. It is also simple to mount a guard (poke a hole through a piece of iron and stick the tang through). Let's not forget, repairing a handle like this is basically wrapping a piece of cord around the tang. You do not need grinding technology, and you use less steel.
For a full tang; you use much more steel; and you need grinding technology (files will do).
Full tangs will in theory be stronger; but they will also mess with the balance more. I believe both have pro's and con's, and both handle mounting methods should be used when best fit.
I think full tang is used more to describe a tang that goes the full length of the handle rather than the width of the handle. The common use of cheap Chinese rat tail tangs in many modern knives has led to many blades falling out of the handle. Basically if the tang runs the length of the handle it probably won't break or separate. If it only goes an inch into the handle regardless of its width it will probably fail to stay in one piece under heavy use.
I asked this question concerning khukuri knives. Overwhelming, customers requested full tang. They said If the wood of the handle breaks that they can still use it on a survival situation.
Personally I like stick tangs.
I wasn't aware tangs are usually welded to the blade, so I thought making a hidden tang would require some extra work.
Kind of disappointed. I wanted them to be better, since they are very cool, and that brings me to one reason you would want a full tang: aesthetics. That's a very legitimate reason to have them. You also could argue you don't need a pommel, or just a smaller one, to balance the sword, but I'm pretty sure there are loads of weapons with full width tangs with pommels and weapons with hidden tangs without one to prove me wrong.
I think the full width vs. hidden tang is less controversial than whether wire tangs are any good under use.
I think the modern need for full tang knives came along peoples desire to beat them through twisted oak logs full of knots, which does not seem to have been something people did alot of just a couple of decades ago and earlier.
If there is a need nowadays, it's either because manufacturers don't know how to keep the tang soft, or because the users don't know how and when to use knives. This "need" hasn't existed before, despite knives having been used more and the materials having been worse.
I think the length of the tang is more important. It has to go past the point where you are applying the most leverage, usually this means at least one hand length down.
Of course part of the issue is actually knowing, with a full tang you can at least see some of it's dimensions.
I learned something very important from this video: there was a guy named Charles Reeves that was a real money hungry POS. As far as full width tangs: I think they're just easier the manufacture - you slap a couple slabs of wood on each side and grind it into a handle. In the earliest days it might have been considered "cheap" if your sword's tang wasn't concealed, and noble to have a more sophisticated concealed tang, with a beautiful handle all around it... just speculating.
Without modern mass production methods a full tang knife isn't easy to make to a high standard, note that working tools generally had a hidden tang or a socket whereas an eating knife was more likely to have a full tang and exotic materials to show of your status at the dining table.
Damn, that's a good point. I might have been off on that.
Thanks, that was interesting. I was wondering if there are disadvantages of full width tangs and basically came up with the same conclusions: More expensive, usually not required, can mess with the balance and adds weight.
However, as far as knives are concerned I have a lot of bad experiences with central- tang constructions, broken tangs and more commonly constructions which are coming loose resulting in an artfully made but useless or bad item which is not easy to fix without replacing the whole handle. So I personaly think, at least for heavy duty outdoor-knives which are meant to be used for a very long time (it really does not matter for very cheap ones), the full tang construction might actually be the better, more reliable solution.
Stress risers cause more snapping at the handle and guard junction, especially when people use a knife as a froe.
This isn't really a problem if the junction has rounded corners, you can baton with a mora knife for example without fear of it breaking
@@snakeoveer1046 Exactly...the rounded corner geometry gives the stresses an "out"... You're exactly right. This is why so many cheap overseas copies of good knives fail...suck HT and geometry.
Full width may be a disadvantage sometimes. If grips are not perfectly matched, those edges where tang meets grip on both sides can potentially cause bruises. Same with rivets of that grip.
I don't think it necessarily matters about strength but it definitely plays a role in guard rattle and your grip loosening which I absolutely loathe.. I've never had a trainer last more than a week without something getting loose and then I'm having to tighten or tape something and it never really lasts that long. With a full tang at least you don't have to worry about all that noise and looseness as much
The iron tang idea is pretty thought provoking, I realized that in blacksmithing videos they don't quench the tang. Is that for a similar reason?
Yes, exactly the same reason. In my opinion nobody should be hardening (quenching) tangs. It is a mistake.
My experience is that although the tang is stronger, the handle becomes less durable. Two pieces of wood stuck to the tang by nothing but rivets. They tend to come lose and eventually fall off. With a hidden tang encircled by handle, the handle materials material strength adds to the structure of the handle.