In the 5 Room Dungeon, a room does not need to mean a literal room. A room could be figurative and mean a section of the dungeon with many rooms with a single theme. Often, old school games had very long, deep dungeons and were meant for dungeon crawling. Each floor would have its own theme. Your five room dungeon could have five floors, with each floor representing a room of the 5 room dungeon, and each floor could have their own 5 room dungeon. Think about it like plotting 5 novels, then you go back and write each novel.
I am loving this. It breaks things down into abstract steps like Campbell's "Hero's Journey" framework, except it's about dungeons. The steps each feel fundamental without being too limiting about what they can be, and as a whole they form a fun rewarding experience.
I love the idea of the Logical Location. It may not do much mechanically speaking, but it really grounds the whole thing, and adds some life (instead of rooms just being there because of gaming purposes).
Mix it with the Resource Drain and secret entrance. The players find a secret door with the sound of running water on the other side. They open it to find volcanic hot spring pools, in which a dozen goblins are bathing themselves. One sits up, removes the cucumbers from their eyes, squints, and shrieks - standing and revealing his goblin bits while its fellows raise their weapons they inexplicably with them in the baths. Roll initiative.
Honestly, uhm, most of the rooms in your dungeons should be locical locations. Rooms need to fulfill more functions at the same time. A. They need to feel logical/immersive and be part of the game board at the same time. B. They can stack functions, like having a secret stash, giving you interactive terrain for a fight and also holding information like having a murial.
I appreciate this video. Immediately prior to this one, I watched one that insisted more than 3 or rooms was a mistake and never to do it. Your video sounds just as reasonable as theirs.
I have an idea i got from a short story. A woman is kidnapped by an evil wizard and the PCs want her back. In the story its a lone fighter who enters the dungeon under the wizards residence. He gets captured and taken to a cell deep under ground where he awaits torture and death. He breaks out, spends what feels like hours going through dark passages, up and down stairways, until he exits in the wizards summoning room where he’s using his victims blood to summon a demon god thing. Theres a fight he wins. The story details the summoning room, torture chambers, prison cells, a treasure vault and not much else. There are captives awaiting their fate and some guards. The question is how many levels to build and how to make them interesting. The hero in the story had two encounters the one that got him captured and the final one. He spent hours walking around empty passages dodging traps, this would either be over very quickly or really boring. I could make a few random levels populated with an assortment of creatures but that doesn’t feel right.
I use the 5 room dungeon method all the time. The point is that it doesn't have to be exact 5 rooms. It could be 100 rooms, it is more about to fulfill the 5 goals. Nevertheless to expand the method to fullfill your needs is always the right way. I do this most of the time and I will try to use your method in the next session. My prison with underground dungeon is big enough and the time magic aspect gives me a lot of freedom what will happen after the players solve the puzzle and maybe destroy the magic course that stopped the time for so many years. 😈
Yeah, I should have mentioned that in the video. I've found that all of my one-shot style dungeons tend to be 7-10 rooms and it helps to narrow down the scope of those goals a bit, making it easier to come up with ideas. Your prison dungeon sounds awesome!
If I do a lot of rooms I always add a toilet, some have been portals, some are used like in Zelda to house a creature, some others are just a toilet, another has been used make a pipe bomb, for some reason by my players.
Good idea. Adding quality of life rooms to dungeons brings then to life. They're not just rooms for heroes to slaughter through, they're like a tiny little ecosystem for evil minions. Kitchens, moss farms, toilets, it all should be a part of some dungeons.
The undead warlock turning villagers into undeads, reminds me of a certain vampire character turning humans into vampires, in service of a dracholich god/lord, and all of this happens in a temple, placed in a cave in the underdark.
For me the five rooms might already be enough. Nobody said I can’t repeat parts of that. Eg have another role playing room after the boss. And for me the specifics can come from the players. Eg I have an elf with a bow, maybe the puzzle should be something to shoot at. I have a thief? Maybe there should be a chest to unlock. Thanks!
Now this seems like a good idea if you're trying to build bigger dungeons, but isn't the appeal of the 5 room dungeon that you can do it in 1 session? This feels like it stretches out the time significantly and kind of defeats the original purpose.
So the 5 room dungeon is a linear experience and lends itself to 5e's predictable, consumer experience. A step up in the nuance department is the 10 room model. I don't know how an npc party, or individual could be inside such a small place and not leave evidence of their passing, but each to their own I suppose. I don't want to violate the "it's fun at OUR TABLE" policy, so get after it!
Back in 1e The Lankhmar sourcebook they had an interesting way of Generating Urban dungeons. Parts of the city map were left blank. The DM would use a booklet included that had about 12-15 designed squares they could use as the area. This enabled each playthrough to be unique. I still use that mini book to randomly generate Urban enviroments for my players.
a fun way to make every dungeon more interesting is to start by adding something that makes the whole dungeon different from the others when going *between* rooms - a subterranean cave might have water hazards that slow the party's movement and hinders their stealth - the tomb of a mummy lord might contain shifting halls and trick doors that result in the party becoming trapped or lost - some ruins overtaken by the jungle might have various flora and fauna that serve as distractions to be cut down or avoided that the party might need to take risks against if they're on a time crunch even a farm that the party are trying to sneak into can have hazards, such as animals that create noise if the party spooks them, or farmhands that are 'patrolling' just by sheer nature of their day-to-day tasks like any good character or NPC, come into designing dungeons with an idea of how to give each one a personality and identity. just remember to design the dungeon itself with *and* against the party's motives and means: unless somewhere is not meant to be accessible by the party, there should always be a method for the party to figure out what to do- even if that means they will have to come back later
Never one way in or out, never just one path once inside, always things that move you forward and hold you back, there are things that can stop you in your tracks or propel you past certain points, ways to overthink and underthink, stories happening along with the players, stories happening without their involvement, and those that will reel them in. A dungeon is a interlocking concept of location, reasoning, surprise, victory/defeat, memorable moments, and a opportunity for heroic moments. The dungeon impacts not only the world but the players and characters that venture near and inside. Things that dwell inside dungeons may remain hidden from the worldspace. They may be the thing that can change a worldspace or character. They may even be the thing that can end it. You get to decide all the ways in which your space is explored. Always a pleasure to watch your vids JP and hang out with you in your digital world. You do good things.
@@JPCoovert If you look at how John talks about the 5RD set up in interviews he never really talks about it as a dungeon that is only 5 rooms large. It's always about 5 key encounters to overlay onto any dungeon environment you want to make.
@@stevemanart Yeah. That's very clear. My attempt was to make a template that is a little more specific so it works for how I create dungeons (which usually end up being 8-10 rooms).
It's interesting, specially because dungeon design is something that the DMG currently lacks in a modern fashion. The 5 Room Dungeon is a tried and true method, yes probably you don't NEED 5 explicit rooms, it can have more... but it gets a bit predictable
This is great. As soon as I heard about 5-room dungeons, I said great, but every 5-room dungeon should be 9 rooms, because there should be 4 empty rooms, as described in the early D&D DM material. Every room should be _interesting_ but only 60% of rooms need to be _challenging._
Hi JP! Just discovered your channel and I love this! Always felt the same way about the 5 room dungeon concept. Its great for new DM's who are learning how to run a dungeon crawl but what about those looking for something a bit more advanced? This is great. Earned a follow from me, cheers!
I would strongly encourage DMs to experiment. My players can probably handle three challenge rooms per session, and the difficulty needs to be similar. Combat is actually easy, you just roll dice, whereas puzzles could be extremely hard in comparison. That said, maybe you have two five room dungeons that they can attempt, so the puzzle doesn’t have to be a show stopper. Maybe they comeback later. It really depends how you want to run the game and what motivates your players. Lastly, Johnn mentions time in his five room book. You can cut things short if needed.
When is the kickstarter? Will we be able to get your other/older stuff from the kickstarter? What about getting digital and print stuff together? I for one can't wait for the kickstarter, it's been a month since you announced it! Also, what size is a postcard? Making dungeons on a postcard sounds very useful. More durable than paper, can mail it to a friend, I love this idea. Now I just need to learn to draw, make maps, and get supplies. Do you have a place you recommend buying blank postcards? Love your videos, the passion, and the ideas and passion they give me. I can't wait for the kickstarter.... in case I did not mention that yet.
The 5 room dungeon is better as the 5 door dungeon. The steps don't define the rooms, but the experiences that must be passed through on the way to the end of the dungeon. The rooms between the doors? That's the game.
This is not a video about how to structure a dungeon. It is a video about: Hey, I find it cool to put these elements into a dungeon. That's fine, but it feels like false advertising and certainly does not help to makes things easier. It just gives you a another checklist instead of giving actual context and advice of how to plan these room functions or where to put them. The topic deserves a more comprehensive video or well structured playlist. Let's talk about the secret entrance: 1. Why is it there? Sure, they can be exciting, but not if every dungeon has them. It also needs to be logical why they are there (and the"logical Location" room won't save your map if the res tdoes not make sense). 2. Where is it? I feel a second entrance should not be put right near the first entrance. It should A. make sense for the original inhabitants and B. be near the end of the dungeon when you think of it as a playing board. Easy escape for the antagonists or players. 3. How to work for it? Do the players need to find a secret passageway or beyond a trap room? Is it just there? Are there hints throughout the dungeon? Is it a trap as a whole and actually leads into a dragon's lair or into a different part of the dungeon? (Maybe it's just a shortcut, which is in itself one more room function.) Do the players have to solve a puzzle or find a key?
Do you think it would be a good idea for me to learn to DM and to play solo some adventures, to make a better RPG-like game? Maybe the DM/player guidebook could be useful for gamedev, right?
I liked this. I think about dungeons a lot. But you are missing a lot. The 5 room dungeon is in fact a 2.5 room dungeon because 2 of those rooms are just features of rooms that could be added to others. the first 3 rooms could all be the same room and still be a little light on content. And the last 2 rooms are 1 room whatever way you cut it. I would be happy to explain my reasoning to anyone who cares. The 10 room dungeon exasperates this. The last 2 rooms are the same so 1 by my count. secrets, logic, and helpful information should be the bare minimum content of an “empty room” These 4 rooms add up to 0. All of those things should be in every room. The entrance could be the entrance to any of the rooms so that is also extra flavour for a room. The remaining 3 rooms could each be rooms on their own with the support of other ideas you list (3 for 3). So, it turns out the 10 room dungeon is a 4 room dungeon. I want to see more content on the subject from you. I really enjoyed the video.
having dedicated rooms to those things can help ensure the players take it in, and also cut down on time when including them in an existing room could slow things down
![[Limbus Company - Teaser] Season5 - Oblivion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8anKuEeZLeI/mqdefault.jpg)
10 Rooms
-Entrance
-Logical Location
-Environmental Complication
-Alternate Threat of Ally
-Helpful Information
-Secret Entrance/Exit
-Resource Drain
-Secret
-Big Battle/Final Conflict
-Reward, Revelation, or Plot Twist
Ty for the summary!! :D super helpful
5 room is still better.
- Entrance
- Puzzle
- Set back
- Boss fight
- Reward
Runehammers encounter method:
- Timer
- Threat
- Treat
In the 5 Room Dungeon, a room does not need to mean a literal room. A room could be figurative and mean a section of the dungeon with many rooms with a single theme. Often, old school games had very long, deep dungeons and were meant for dungeon crawling. Each floor would have its own theme. Your five room dungeon could have five floors, with each floor representing a room of the 5 room dungeon, and each floor could have their own 5 room dungeon. Think about it like plotting 5 novels, then you go back and write each novel.
Josh? Are you from Nolanville??
@@thomasstanford80191 No. Why do you ask?
@@Joshuazx I have a friend with your same name lol
@@thomasstanford80191 I think my name is actually really common!
@@Joshuazx I actually did expect that to be the case
Hey I appreciate you for humoring me all the same!
I’ve been making dungeons lately, and have been wondering what to put into the rooms. This really helps it make sense!
I am loving this. It breaks things down into abstract steps like Campbell's "Hero's Journey" framework, except it's about dungeons. The steps each feel fundamental without being too limiting about what they can be, and as a whole they form a fun rewarding experience.
I love the idea of the Logical Location. It may not do much mechanically speaking, but it really grounds the whole thing, and adds some life (instead of rooms just being there because of gaming purposes).
Mix it with the Resource Drain and secret entrance. The players find a secret door with the sound of running water on the other side. They open it to find volcanic hot spring pools, in which a dozen goblins are bathing themselves. One sits up, removes the cucumbers from their eyes, squints, and shrieks - standing and revealing his goblin bits while its fellows raise their weapons they inexplicably with them in the baths. Roll initiative.
Honestly, uhm, most of the rooms in your dungeons should be locical locations.
Rooms need to fulfill more functions at the same time.
A. They need to feel logical/immersive and be part of the game board at the same time.
B. They can stack functions, like having a secret stash, giving you interactive terrain for a fight and also holding information like having a murial.
Newbie here and this really helped with narrowing down why my dungeon map felt so off. Thanks for the video.
I appreciate this video. Immediately prior to this one, I watched one that insisted more than 3 or rooms was a mistake and never to do it. Your video sounds just as reasonable as theirs.
I have an idea i got from a short story.
A woman is kidnapped by an evil wizard and the PCs want her back. In the story its a lone fighter who enters the dungeon under the wizards residence. He gets captured and taken to a cell deep under ground where he awaits torture and death.
He breaks out, spends what feels like hours going through dark passages, up and down stairways, until he exits in the wizards summoning room where he’s using his victims blood to summon a demon god thing. Theres a fight he wins.
The story details the summoning room, torture chambers, prison cells, a treasure vault and not much else. There are captives awaiting their fate and some guards.
The question is how many levels to build and how to make them interesting. The hero in the story had two encounters the one that got him captured and the final one. He spent hours walking around empty passages dodging traps, this would either be over very quickly or really boring.
I could make a few random levels populated with an assortment of creatures but that doesn’t feel right.
I use the 5 room dungeon method all the time. The point is that it doesn't have to be exact 5 rooms. It could be 100 rooms, it is more about to fulfill the 5 goals.
Nevertheless to expand the method to fullfill your needs is always the right way. I do this most of the time and I will try to use your method in the next session. My prison with underground dungeon is big enough and the time magic aspect gives me a lot of freedom what will happen after the players solve the puzzle and maybe destroy the magic course that stopped the time for so many years. 😈
Yeah, I should have mentioned that in the video. I've found that all of my one-shot style dungeons tend to be 7-10 rooms and it helps to narrow down the scope of those goals a bit, making it easier to come up with ideas. Your prison dungeon sounds awesome!
@JP Coovert Thank you very much. I think you did mention it in the video but not crystal clear. :- )
Great video as always, love your content.
Gonna be honest, this is one of the most helpful videoed I’ve come across on the creation of dungeons. Thank you.
Gnome Stew also did a take on the five-room dungeon that's worth a look.
For the number of rooms, you could roll 1d6+4 (5-10).
If I do a lot of rooms I always add a toilet, some have been portals, some are used like in Zelda to house a creature, some others are just a toilet, another has been used make a pipe bomb, for some reason by my players.
Good idea. Adding quality of life rooms to dungeons brings then to life. They're not just rooms for heroes to slaughter through, they're like a tiny little ecosystem for evil minions. Kitchens, moss farms, toilets, it all should be a part of some dungeons.
The undead warlock turning villagers into undeads, reminds me of a certain vampire character turning humans into vampires, in service of a dracholich god/lord, and all of this happens in a temple, placed in a cave in the underdark.
What a fantastically helpful video, thank you so much!!
5:36 And that thinking was behind the dungeon design of Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall.
For me the five rooms might already be enough. Nobody said I can’t repeat parts of that. Eg have another role playing room after the boss. And for me the specifics can come from the players. Eg I have an elf with a bow, maybe the puzzle should be something to shoot at. I have a thief? Maybe there should be a chest to unlock.
Thanks!
Now this seems like a good idea if you're trying to build bigger dungeons, but isn't the appeal of the 5 room dungeon that you can do it in 1 session? This feels like it stretches out the time significantly and kind of defeats the original purpose.
Maybe it's my play style, but I've found 5 rooms haven't been enough for a single session of 3 - 3.5 hours. 8-10 has been the sweet spot for me!
So the 5 room dungeon is a linear experience and lends itself to 5e's predictable, consumer experience. A step up in the nuance department is the 10 room model.
I don't know how an npc party, or individual could be inside such a small place and not leave evidence of their passing, but each to their own I suppose. I don't want to violate the "it's fun at OUR TABLE" policy, so get after it!
How do you play the dungeon gen out ,theatre of mind ? Drawn tile maps ? Do you use models ?
Good template.
Took me a second to realise this was for DND and not game dev
Great channel!!!
Back in 1e The Lankhmar sourcebook they had an interesting way of Generating Urban dungeons. Parts of the city map were left blank. The DM would use a booklet included that had about 12-15 designed squares they could use as the area. This enabled each playthrough to be unique. I still use that mini book to randomly generate Urban enviroments for my players.
That sounds really cool! I'll have to look that up!
Got me thinking about my game now... WHY do the players want to go into the woods? What are they looking for? Got a lotta work to do!
❤❤❤
:) Nice!
sell your zine in pdf form please. i really dont have the money to have another subscription (patreon) but i can buy your stuff individually instead!
First!
a fun way to make every dungeon more interesting is to start by adding something that makes the whole dungeon different from the others when going *between* rooms
- a subterranean cave might have water hazards that slow the party's movement and hinders their stealth
- the tomb of a mummy lord might contain shifting halls and trick doors that result in the party becoming trapped or lost
- some ruins overtaken by the jungle might have various flora and fauna that serve as distractions to be cut down or avoided that the party might need to take risks against if they're on a time crunch
even a farm that the party are trying to sneak into can have hazards, such as animals that create noise if the party spooks them, or farmhands that are 'patrolling' just by sheer nature of their day-to-day tasks
like any good character or NPC, come into designing dungeons with an idea of how to give each one a personality and identity. just remember to design the dungeon itself with *and* against the party's motives and means: unless somewhere is not meant to be accessible by the party, there should always be a method for the party to figure out what to do- even if that means they will have to come back later
Yes! These are addressed in the guide. Well put!
@@JPCoovert thank you!
Your dungeon design is very practical and easy to implement. Thank you.
Never one way in or out, never just one path once inside, always things that move you forward and hold you back, there are things that can stop you in your tracks or propel you past certain points, ways to overthink and underthink, stories happening along with the players, stories happening without their involvement, and those that will reel them in. A dungeon is a interlocking concept of location, reasoning, surprise, victory/defeat, memorable moments, and a opportunity for heroic moments. The dungeon impacts not only the world but the players and characters that venture near and inside. Things that dwell inside dungeons may remain hidden from the worldspace. They may be the thing that can change a worldspace or character. They may even be the thing that can end it. You get to decide all the ways in which your space is explored. Always a pleasure to watch your vids JP and hang out with you in your digital world. You do good things.
ok?
That 5 room dungeon almost sounded like a 5 act story structure.
Yes! It's written that way. How to have a fun compelling night of storytelling with friends :)
@@JPCoovert If you look at how John talks about the 5RD set up in interviews he never really talks about it as a dungeon that is only 5 rooms large. It's always about 5 key encounters to overlay onto any dungeon environment you want to make.
@@stevemanart Yeah. That's very clear. My attempt was to make a template that is a little more specific so it works for how I create dungeons (which usually end up being 8-10 rooms).
It's interesting, specially because dungeon design is something that the DMG currently lacks in a modern fashion. The 5 Room Dungeon is a tried and true method, yes probably you don't NEED 5 explicit rooms, it can have more... but it gets a bit predictable
This is epic. I really need to make me a picture of that and put it into my gm binder, this is really great work. Thank you!
This post made me a fan. Awesome explanation of something I knew, but now I understand.
This is great. As soon as I heard about 5-room dungeons, I said great, but every 5-room dungeon should be 9 rooms, because there should be 4 empty rooms, as described in the early D&D DM material. Every room should be _interesting_ but only 60% of rooms need to be _challenging._
That's a great point! A difference between "interesting" and "Challenging" is a great way to think about it.
Hi JP! Just discovered your channel and I love this! Always felt the same way about the 5 room dungeon concept. Its great for new DM's who are learning how to run a dungeon crawl but what about those looking for something a bit more advanced? This is great. Earned a follow from me, cheers!
deving computer games - very useful info here for that as well
Is there a PDF for you guide or is it only physical?
Signing up for the patreon gets you ALL the pdfs!
Please look up Janelle Jaquays she is a master of dungeon maps
I'm sorry to tell you she past away two days ago. But she (and her wife) will forever have marked the world of TTRPG.
I would strongly encourage DMs to experiment. My players can probably handle three challenge rooms per session, and the difficulty needs to be similar. Combat is actually easy, you just roll dice, whereas puzzles could be extremely hard in comparison. That said, maybe you have two five room dungeons that they can attempt, so the puzzle doesn’t have to be a show stopper. Maybe they comeback later.
It really depends how you want to run the game and what motivates your players.
Lastly, Johnn mentions time in his five room book. You can cut things short if needed.
When is the kickstarter? Will we be able to get your other/older stuff from the kickstarter? What about getting digital and print stuff together? I for one can't wait for the kickstarter, it's been a month since you announced it!
Also, what size is a postcard? Making dungeons on a postcard sounds very useful. More durable than paper, can mail it to a friend, I love this idea. Now I just need to learn to draw, make maps, and get supplies. Do you have a place you recommend buying blank postcards?
Love your videos, the passion, and the ideas and passion they give me. I can't wait for the kickstarter.... in case I did not mention that yet.
The 5 room dungeon is better as the 5 door dungeon. The steps don't define the rooms, but the experiences that must be passed through on the way to the end of the dungeon. The rooms between the doors? That's the game.
This is not a video about how to structure a dungeon.
It is a video about: Hey, I find it cool to put these elements into a dungeon.
That's fine, but it feels like false advertising and certainly does not help to makes things easier. It just gives you a another checklist instead of giving actual context and advice of how to plan these room functions or where to put them. The topic deserves a more comprehensive video or well structured playlist.
Let's talk about the secret entrance:
1. Why is it there?
Sure, they can be exciting, but not if every dungeon has them. It also needs to be logical why they are there (and the"logical Location" room won't save your map if the res tdoes not make sense).
2. Where is it?
I feel a second entrance should not be put right near the first entrance. It should A. make sense for the original inhabitants and B. be near the end of the dungeon when you think of it as a playing board. Easy escape for the antagonists or players.
3. How to work for it?
Do the players need to find a secret passageway or beyond a trap room? Is it just there? Are there hints throughout the dungeon? Is it a trap as a whole and actually leads into a dragon's lair or into a different part of the dungeon? (Maybe it's just a shortcut, which is in itself one more room function.) Do the players have to solve a puzzle or find a key?
Seems like you need to make your own video. Feel free to make it as long and comprehensive as you like.
Do you think it would be a good idea for me to learn to DM and to play solo some adventures, to make a better RPG-like game? Maybe the DM/player guidebook could be useful for gamedev, right?
Not sure what your goals are but I thing being a DM is a great first step in learning about TTRPG design!
dude thank you im making my first dnd campaign and im only 14 so this helps so much
You’re gonna have so much fun!!!
Yeah, that's pritty good but all I need and use now is D100 Dungeon by Martin Knight.
I liked this. I think about dungeons a lot. But you are missing a lot. The 5 room dungeon is in fact a 2.5 room dungeon because 2 of those rooms are just features of rooms that could be added to others. the first 3 rooms could all be the same room and still be a little light on content. And the last 2 rooms are 1 room whatever way you cut it. I would be happy to explain my reasoning to anyone who cares. The 10 room dungeon exasperates this. The last 2 rooms are the same so 1 by my count. secrets, logic, and helpful information should be the bare minimum content of an “empty room” These 4 rooms add up to 0. All of those things should be in every room. The entrance could be the entrance to any of the rooms so that is also extra flavour for a room. The remaining 3 rooms could each be rooms on their own with the support of other ideas you list (3 for 3). So, it turns out the 10 room dungeon is a 4 room dungeon. I want to see more content on the subject from you. I really enjoyed the video.
having dedicated rooms to those things can help ensure the players take it in, and also cut down on time when including them in an existing room could slow things down
nice!
Looking good👍🏻