Chinese Broadsword Dao Guards: Why are they shaped like CUPS?
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Why is the common Qing Dynasty Chinese dao/broadsword guard shaped like a cup? Idle pondering - your thoughts welcome!
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I have a relative who has a fair bit of background in Chinese history - according to him, the cup is to keep the scabbard in place. Note how the scabbard opening for the ox tail dao is quite wide to accommodate the wider front end of the blade. If the guard is not cupped, the more narrow part of the blade near the hilt would slide back and forth within the opening, hence dulling the blade as well as making the fit less secure. The cup essentially locks the scabbard in place.
Makes a lot of sense
that makes more sense than the stuff i thought of (which Matt ended up going over in the video).
That's basically what I was thinking, except I figured it worked to better seal the scabbard from weather elements. It makes sense that it would work competently for both better fitting the sword securely in the scabbard and protecting the sheathed sword from weather elements.
So it's like a reverse habaki
this exact issue has made me wonder how spurious scabbards on any tip-heavy sword are. even on museum pieces
They use the cup to catch the hundreds of arrows that are shot at the main characters.
@asdrubale bisanzio no it's the main character so they'll catch all of them so precisely that they all land on one spot and split the previous arrow Robin hood style
@@thisaccountisntreal107 no need to catch them at all, just bash them out of the air while spinning, and don't forget to split the last shaft such that its halves pass you left and right.
Funny enough, in the old Kung fu movies, bandits use dao whereas the main characters use jian
Thats the cup they used to catch the 100,000 arrows to fire back at the enemy
Considering that the blade is wider towards the tip, the guard might also keep the scabbard from rattling against the narrow width at the base of the blade. I think all proposed ideas are correct because it seems like a simple solution that does a decent job at many different things. Kinda genius really.
Mine doesn't rattle when sheathed
Nice idea! Bryn, yours may not rattle, but considering these would've been fairly low quality swords churned out for simple footsoldiers, I doubt the fit and finish would be as fine as your example. Add to that a few years of wear and tear out on campaign and I can certainly see an anti-rattling hilt being of merit.
I strongly agree with the strength/rigidity statement.
Well clearly for drinking the blood of your enemies. However, failing that the rainguard idea probably holds the most merit... especially if you consider a bunch of these being stored on racks for wall defense etc. I think this design won out because it achieved several outcomes at once.
dang. I was hoping I would be the first to make the "cup to catch pooling blood to drink the blood of your enemies and look super sick" joke.
Lol, every army loves a multi purpose tool to cut that weight!
Yeah... blood drinking....definitely
That's not how you make bloodwine Earthling.
I bet on the rain protection... I don't know the age of the design but I could see it being valuable in the period of the War with the Pirate Queen and her fleets and with the Opium Wars where they would be handing out a lot of blades to militia in defense of attacks via seafaring types and likewise in the parts of China that get the Monsoon rains (if I remember correctly).
It feels like all of your theses' have a fair degree of validity. So can we call this a package deal? A more comfortable, rain-shedding hilt that is stronger for it's weight and provides greater hand and thrust protection seems like an all around good thing.
Did you just made an "all around" joke about disc guards? Or was it just me who thought that was kinda funny?
@@sojus7929 I should tell you that I meant to do that so I would seem clever, but no. Purely unintentional.
I think that a design that offers several benefits is better than one that only offers one, unless that one benefit rules them all.
@@dutch6857 sometimes being honest is better than being clever. 😁
But don't worry you are definitely a clever person, after all you where watching this video, so you can't be that stupid. 😉
@@sojus7929 Kind words, thank you. And because you watched as well i can say "Good travels fellow smart person!"
Matt, on the antiques were there any evidences of the cup receiving damages from cuts and thrusts or were they mostly pristine?
It seems like it would serve as a good "rain-guard", but might also assist with blocking/catching an opponent's tip when they're attempting a thrust(?)...
Or... it's a BLOOD CUP TO COLLECT YOUR OPPONENT'S BLOOD SO YOU CAN DRINK IT!!🤘🤜🤣
@@MascottDeepfriar , Good call indeed!
2000 years from now, when they have nothing but restored but mostly corrupt computer archives from our time and even less knowledge about these swords than we do, some expert will lecture that this comment from so very close to the times the blade was used must be correct and it was to drink the blood of your enemies for sure.
When i trainded Choy lee fut, one of my sifus told me it was in order to keep the enemy's blood away of the grip... all the reasons Mat outlined were more plausible than that, but is still a posibility.
I agree. It fits over the edge of the scabbard and keeps the rain out of the scabbard.
Wow, I found this after I made my post. So I guess I'm not the only blood thirsty one.😅
Also, another point in favor of the low manufacturing cost theory: Dao are more associated with commoners' weapons as opposed to "gentleman" swords like the jian. (yes, yes, nobility also used dao, I'm just talking in generalities)
That's so cool! :D
True, usually the Jians were used by the nobility or scribes, whilst the dao was more manufactured in a blacksmithing shop for commoners to use for it's purpose.
I believe it has to do with making a strong guard lighter, or a light guard stronger, as well as aligning the blade in the scabbard so it doesn't bounce around a lot, as well as the water issue. As far as origins... I believe we see some disc guards on roman blades before we see them in china, right? Maybe I'm mixing that up.
Many Byzantine swords also had this feature. It must have had a purpose for both cultures to have developed it! Or they had mutual cultural exchange.
Or it could be different ppl had the same solution. I have a suspicion that it is to solve practical problems rather than combat problems.
@@F1ghteR41 Indeed.
I've been practicing kung fu virtually my entire life, granted that's only 25+ years. But I can honestly say that a far as I've ever known, the generally accepted concesus at least in the modern kung fu community (Wulin) is that that cup shape was meant literally as a cup to catch blood running down the blade from getting all over the handle as you cut through enemies. As I understand it dry blood is notoriously sticky; no good on a sword handle. The ferocity of techniques used with the dao lend to spilling lots of blood.
My guess is that it's designed as a spacer to keep opponents' blades further away from your hand/arm when they hit the guard, so that even if your hand is choked all the way up the hilt, there is always an extra inch or two of space between the opponent's blade and your fingers. And the reason it's a hollow cup when a solid metal disk of the same thickness would do the same job is likely to keep the sword's weight down and keep its center of gravity higher up the blade.
A pointy inch-thick metal disk would make for a nice sword/warhammer convertible.
First thing I thought when I saw that cup is that clanging a blade on the lip of that thing that would be a great way to put a dent in a mass-produced sword. I doubt doing chip damage to the enemy's weapon is enough motivation to design in that way, but it could be a nice bonus side effect.
i dont even care about this topic, im here for the innuendo and the context
Probably to have a lighter/thinner guard that won't bend as easily..
That type of guard can prevent blood etc fluids from reaching hand.
Swords of that shape are pretty good to cut, slice, slash etc so they mostly drain in blood and other matter that can fall on hand damaging the grip on it.
My guesses for the Cup shaped disc is two things.
1. It adds strength.
2. Depending on the shape of the scabbard, it could keep water from rain from dripping past the guard into the scabbard.
Nope, the secret is, the whole sword closes a container you carry on the back.
Like many designs, it's probably to address multiple issues with the simplest, cheapest solution. One must remember, for a very long time, China was much more advanced technologically than most of the world but for India and surrounding areas. With a huge military and huge expenses associated with this, innovative, inexpensive solutions were likely welcomed by the authorities paying the bill. All of ideas presented were possibly presented at the time and won recognition for those responsible for developing it and addressing multiple issues with the most effective and economical solution. As a retired Industrial Design Engineer, I tend to look at designs with a different perspective than most. If one were to meet the responsible party(s), likely they would say "all of the above". It's just the most logical solution to multiple issues for the least effort and expense. IMO
Valid, well thought out points and line up with what I've been told and my own thoughts. Thanks for putting this out! I think a big factor is both the rain protection as well as strengthening the disc guard which remember could've been brass/bronze? and not iron. I have trained in this saber and sparred with it often for several years... I have NOT experienced using the cup/dish as a thrust catch myself.
Very good video, I think you brought many interesting points. As for the fact that you can actually pour liquid into the guard, in the Kung Fu school I attend the master usually tells the students that the cup shaped guard (in Italian he calls it "scola sangue", which I think it could be barely translated as "blood dripper" or "blood drainer", correct me if it's not accurate) was used to avoid that the rain or the enemy's blood could drip to the handle and make it slippery. I wasn't very convinced about that but, who knows.
The handle wrap would take care of that for the most part, even cheaply mass produced for garrison work, they are designed to remain grippy even in adverse conditions. You would be more concerned about the blade and tang getting rusty than the actual handle and so would want to keep it dry as much as possible. SO as a rain guard actually makes a lot of sense, especially for professionals fighting and patrolling year round, rain, sun, snow and fog.
Scola sangue = blood drainer, correct
The additional distance gained to protect the hand from binds is likely the most probably reason.
The cup starts to appear in the later periods, just as the Jian's prominence as a civilian duelling weapon started to grow. In general, the duelling Jian's techniques heavily involve controlling the opponent's weapon and getting slices on the opponent's hand or forearm from the bind. That additional bit of distance in protecting the hand from angles of attack from the bind would have been a huge factor in keeping the Dao relevant as a personal side arm.
I do not think catching the opponent's point was ever intended design, rather a happy side effect. I have never seen a school of Chinese Dao-fa that keeps the Dao between the opponent and themselves in a manner that would lead to the catching of the point in the cup. Most DaoFa I am aware of tend to keep the weapon arm back, as it is and always was meant to be used with a shield in warfare. And even without a shield, there seems to be a great emphasis on keeping the sword arm back so as to not present an easy target, again likely because doing so against the more nimble Jian, where many schools of JianFa emphasised on targeting the opponent's weapon arm, is suicide.
Yes, I fully agree with you. Just regarding the shield argument: there is to my knowledge no evidence of ox tail dao being used by armies, it was an exclusively civilian weapon, so use with shields would have been rare (bandits and some militias, maybe). The main reason for the more retracted weapon arm is probably that the dao is usually kept moving as it is less nimble than the jian, but the idea of using it with a shield (which is also sometimes done in the style I train) may very well relate to older forms of dao.
I like that you said about how we always talk about sword against sword when often it’s spears they’d be up against. Nearly all of the Chinese sabre applications in the tai chi form I learnt in the 90’s were against spear or pole arm attacks
I think the cup shape evolved in a couple ways. The rain guard is a good guess, but I think if you’re stamping the guards out of thinner sheet metal, the cupped shape provides rigidity that a flat disc of thin metal wouldn’t
The "umbrella" idea is, in my view, likely to have been incidental, and a serendipitous advantage, but not the primary purpose of the folded edge. If it were the primary reason, why continue the folded edge around the bottom (blade edge side), where the geometry doesn't really give that advantage. In this instance one would perhaps expect a small projection to go over the top of the guard (back edge) where the rain is likely to get in, and stop there. This would be much easier and less laborious to make than a folded edge going right the way round the entire guard. Also I believe the "cushioning" effect of the folded edge on the guard, helping to stop the edge of the guard digging in to the wearer, when bashed or knocked was similarly serendipitous, but also not the primary reason.
As you mention the fact that many historic examples of Dao disk guards are made of relatively thin metal, that really IS THE ANSWER. In order to make that kind of guard out of thin metal, and be robust enough for combat, it HAS to have a reinforced edge. And folding the edges down is the simplest, cheapest and quickest way to reinforce the edge. The fact that these examples come predominantly from the 19th Century also points to this, as the manufacturers would have presumably be making use of newly available forms of mass produced SHEET STEEL. Which, if they were to be made into disk guards would need to have the edges folded down on a dolly in the forge, in order to give the guard structural rigidity, in a similar manner to the shape of an RSJ. Indeed they could have been made on newly introduced press brake machines, if they were made post the 1920's. If not either of these techniques, the guards would have had to have been cast. But even with castings, they are relatively fragile compared to wrought iron, as they have a crystaline structure to the material. Having a "folded" edge, or a flange on the edge would increase the casting's structural rigidity, and resistance to damage significantly. By comparison Tsuba would presumably have been made in the forge using a lump of bloomery steel, or wrought iron which would have been forged into a thick solid disk of steel, which was inherently strong enough for it's intended purpose, without the need for a reinforcing fold or flange around the edge.
Seeing a real example and determining the exact method of it's construction would help a lot in this respect, I think.
In the great tradition of the “I heard it from someone who heard it from someone” spiel, I was told with great confidence by my M.A trainer who admittedly has zero actual sword combat experience that these weapons are usually produced under exigent circumstances by folks (read militias or rebels) with no access to government arsenals. A disc from poor quality steel would be slapped on as the hand-guard, and to save time and effort, the weapon smiths would just bend the edge of the guard to form a cup which incidentally has the following benefits
1. Quick and dirty way of strengthening the edge and prevent it from flaring
2. Prevent an unworked edge from cutting the user
3. Prevent jinking of the weapon in the scabbard (the part of the blade near the hilt has more headspace than the tip)
I can’t vouch for the veracity of those points above, but I’ve read somewhere that these are mostly non-government issues and could vary a lot in terms of quality
point 2 sounds like bs but point 3 sounds like the most sensible reason thus far.
All I know is I would kill to watch a discussion between you and Chinese specialist Scott Rodell
I did wonder about catching a spear tip, but the main thing with a short weapon vs a spear is that if you did catch the point, you still have a way to go to get to the opponent, so the focus would usually be on getting past the point as quickly as possible. The fit to the neck of the scabbard seems to make the most sense given the recurve blade - which I guess is why you wouldn't need similar on a jian?
I'd say all of the above, for sure. It's worth noting that rigidity scales cubically with thickness opposing the vector of force so the cup shape yields much greater strength in opposition to a blow than a flat solid disc made of the same amount of metal would. You end up with an optimized strength-to-weight ratio that way and it provides numerous advantages.
Very well thought out. Always a pleasurable learning experience. Thanks Professor.
I thought, as you did, something along the lines of strengthening the guard, due to the thinness of the metal, and also as a rain-guard to try and keep water out of the scabbard, although I suspect that that would have been seen as a secondary 'bonus feature', as opposed to the purely structural idea of making a guard as strong as possible, from the minimum metal. Awesome presentation ^_^
I practice HEMA and shaolin kung fu including broadsword, I have several dao examples. I believe the correct explanation is that the cup guard secures the narrow end of the blade while the sword is sheathed. The tip end of the blade is wide and flaring, and therefore the narrow hilt end would otherwide have quite a bit of play while sheathed. Perhaps, there is some benefit preventing debris in the scabbard, etc. I do not believe it serves a specific combat function other than as a tsuba or crossguard. I feel that earlier historical examples are more likely to have a scabbard with one side open and fastenable, avoiding the issue of having to have to slide them directly into the scabbard tip-first. IMO a historical survey would likely show the development cup guard would be directly associated with the increase in the flare of the tip end of these swords, circa mid-to-late 18th century.
My grandfather told me that the design of the guard was made like a cup to collect the blood during war so as to prevent the blood of your enemy from dripping down to the handle and make the grip slippery... When you see a lot of blood collect on the cup like tsuba, you tilt the dao and give it a flick to throw away the blood and then continue fighting.
Rain guard seem like the most logical. And the extra material keeping the adversaries blade away from your hand also makes sense.
Probably to keep rain out of the scabbard.
I would add one point to your list: When you hit the guard with a blade, it will have very small contact area with the sharp part and I think it would be very likely that the guard "bites" into the blade like when you hit two blades into each other. This would mean that the blade could not slide up the guard. I imagine this would have several useful sceanarios apart from just chipping your opponent's blade a bit, like preventing some thrusts or even getting some degree of control over your opponent's blade...
I paused at 1 second in so I don't know Matt's answer but I am just going to State my guess now...
My guess would be that making it a cup shape add strength not only that but you can make the middle thinner the slighter with that shape than you could with the flat disk.
Maybe it's to catch the blood flowing down the blade.
It is a slashing weapon, maybe the excessive blood would make your hand slippery and this way it would pool in the cup and not flow over your hand.
These kind of Dao originaly had a piece of silk fastened at the pommel. It was, as far as I know, meant to whipe off the blood from your hands.
Together with the cup it could make a bit of sense...
Apart from holding the scabbard firmly in place, the cup guard provides a defense against thrusing weapons that might otherwise hit the guard disc, then slide to the side by friction and hit what's behind it.
Help preventing hand sniping while also making it stronger and more comfortable to wear, seems like it would be enough reasons to include it in the context of Chinese martial arts.
I did immediately think about it as a point catcher. The rain protection was an interesting observation.
Awesome video! I used to practice Jow Ga kung fu and my Sifu told me the cup design was to catch blood from the blade so the grip does not get slippery.
2 mins in and ALREADY Matt passingly promised 3 more video topics for the future!
What a master of hyping his audience for future content!
Point capturing and guarding against the rain were the two possible reasons I initially thought about seeing the title, but the rest of the ideas also sound plausible.
the cup is there to keep the blade stables and secure when it's in the sheath, because the Dao tip of the sword is much wider than lower bottom part of the blade so the sheath opening is much bigger ( to accommodate the wider tip of the blade)
..once fully in the sheath, the cup fully sit on the sheath like a lid on a jar and keeps it from shaking around on horse back riding or so ...I believed if the Dao wasn't so perfectly oddly shaped there would be no need for the cup guard, like a katana.
Thrust protection is the first thing that popped into my mind. It moves the opponent's blade further away from your hand as well.
I legitimately have almost no idea, but in Kung Fu we put two hands on the hilt for some moves and pushed. For that move pushing on the cup surface feels good. You can push on the back of the cup much more comfortably than the back of the blade.
Check out this jian with a disc guard. It has a rain guard on the center of the disc. It seems the rain guard was redesigned to be on the rim because it’s easier to make and offered hand protection.
idk why but from the very title of the video i said "rain" and i was kinda thinking "that dosent really make sense" and then you explained it, and it makes total sense, idk if my opinion means anything but i believe it leans more towards rain
When did they discard the disc guard?
The chineses? never. they keep it util the last miaodao were in use in WWII.
@@A.B994 XD Me: What an epic pun! (dies...). Cards well played, sir!
I assume discarding a guard would be known as disguard, and a disc guard dis-disc-guard?
@@A.B994 That sounds like bs.
The idea about cheap metal guard makes sense, since to break it you’ll have to get through the extra structure, thus enabling cheaper guards.
The rain guard seems the most logical reason. A mass-produced cheap combat weapon to be distributed to foot soldiers with a low-cost way to insure the weapon remains useful with very little attention required from the user.
However, it may well be that it was a simple solution that handled multiple facets of sword production and use, such as all the ones you have laid out here.
Regarding Andrew Eden's comment about a "blood catcher" - I don't think that was the purpose, however, it's not so far-fetched an idea. A kung-fu sifu was showing part of a gim (or gian) form in which the sword's decorative tassels were manipulated with the free hand, and he explained the application: once blood collects on the tassels, it could be flung into the opponent's face and eyes. (I just don't see a way to use any blood collected in the guard in a similar manner.)
I'm thinking snack holder. Perhaps even some dip.
I enjoy such speculative video discusions, particularly just before a more researched video. Thanks!
Sell that idea to Mexicans.
the cup might also provide a surface for decoration perhaps to engrave with markings denoting rank within an army or something similar
Longer term (overnight) rust, but I could see the inner wooden part of the scabbard start swelling almost immediately.
The stiffness of a structural beam is proprtional tothe height of the beam cubed. The guard sticking out is essentially a cantilevered beam, so rolling that guard up absolutely makes the giuard stiffer and able to withstand higher loads. And as you say, it adds some cover to the large opening necessary to sheeth the larger bit at the front.
Every answer you offer is better than the last.
I already heared that the cup is meant to catch the opponent's point but I always thought it was dojo lore.
I think the fact that it makes it studier and safer for the same amount of material than a regular disc guard is the most probable explanation.
No one:
Matt Easton: **Just answers a question I always asked myself**
It's there to collect the blood of your enemies.
Some interesting ideas, especially the rain protection.
When I've seen originals the metal of the cup seemed so thin and of such soft iron that a sword blow could cut the deeply into it. In that case a deep cup would be necessary to porridge the hand and could catch the edge.
That would trap the enemy's blade for sure
The thumbnail made it look like you didn't have an answer and were just going to spend 15 minutes furiously questioning Chinese sword guards
After watching this video and reading the comments, I think this design is genius. Cheap to manufacture too.
It is difficult to know the function without a treatise. HEMA is richly documented, hopefully someone will get in touch with you suggesting a Chinese equivalent.
As In every blade culture society, those cuplike hand guards are meant to prevent drippings and flow of blood into the gripping hand and handle.
The cup may be used to catch/bind the the opposing blade, thus facilitating grappling with the dao, or empty hand.
The optimal range for using a dao is more or less a foot-length from being able to touch your opponent with your sword-hand without leaning. More like Kali/escrima, less like european sabre duels.
I do not know the history but that shape is really strong with less weight than an equally strong solid disk. Sheet metal manufacturing is also really inexpensive and was really common in the early modern times. Sheet metal is thinner so to work with it the cup might have been necessary for strength/rigidity.
What about other types of cup guards? I have a miaodao in my possession and that sword has a hollow disc guard. It's like a round cup but enclosed with a perforated steel plate on top so it wouldn't work as well as a rainguard or to catch incoming points. Personally I think it has to do with aesthetic reasons. A chunkier disc just looks better that a thin disc, so they made it like a cup or hollow to save weight, just like with rondel daggers. :)
Hi Matt! Hope the family is doing well. I was watching a Q&A with another youtuber and he was asked how to sharpen a bayonet. His response was that you don't sharpen a bayonet. He said that sharp bayonets had a greater propensity to get stuck in the ribs of your foe. He sited the Japanese as an example of this. I was wondering what you have come across in your learning as to whether or not to sharpen a bayonet for combat.
most nations did sharpen bayonets and huge numbers of antique bayonets have been sharpened. It was completely normal to sharpen bayonets in the 19th century, WW1 and WW2.
Flat Disk guard if hit by a struck will bend, this Cup Rim will instead dent. Daos are very front heavy and used in chopping motion, includind on horseback, they might have noticed that such impact can bend the guard and worst your grip or have the guard loose.
I think that they were for ceremonial purposes, likely to catch the blood of your enemies for ritual sacrifice (or other purposes) later. j/k
Don't you mean "/j"?
but only after the blood has drained from body via the blood groove not this fuller nonsense.
@@rikospostmodernlife jk also means "just kidding." I've never seen it with a / in the middle but the whole combination gets the point across no matter what it means precisely, which is the important thing.
@@gearandalthefirst7027 got it. I just never saw it with the slash, so i thought you brainfarted a /j
Also, if you keep those cup rims fairly sharp, they can lock a sharp blade in place and keep it from sliding as you close in. (I imagine)
The cup prevents any blood from running off the blade onto the hilt, avoiding the risk of a slippery hold on the weapon.
You certainly raise several good points, and it's entirely possible these designs show up exactly because of those multiple possible reasons. Something that I thought of, which is honestly not based on anything but a thought; perhaps something was in this cups, like a decorative, carved piece of wood merely for decoration, or perhaps a coloured ribbon or something similar to identify a certain rank or status of the wearer.
The three points I thought of were rain protection, point defence, and strength. I’m not knowledgeable but I read a lot and your arguments sound very good. The rapier / spear points were fine examples of may be. The rain exclusion given the chance of sticking seem sensible.
Love your work.
I really liked your deflect the edge and catch the point guesses. Those where the first reasons that popped into my head when you brought it up. I had always assumed a disc guard was used to assist the swordsman in releasing the katana from the asaya. I didn't really think about other types of disc guards other than hand protection. Good video, thanks
Protection against rain was the first thing I was thinking, the increased hand protection seems logical
the cap could act as a cushion or absorption during fight. also dust and rain could not get into the scabbard as a cover, not so easy to get rusty. It was rain a lot China and the soldier have to match in it sometime.
I'm not an expert but I think I agree with both your point about the rain protection and about the, combat application against Spears. This is a mass-produced weapon for soldiers to wield against other soldiers as a sidearm.
Imagine to opposing units of Spears facing against each other, trying to push through one another. One of the soldiers, for whatever reason, loses his fear and must draw his sidearm. He was using both hands to hold his spear, before, so it's not practical for him to have both his sword and a shield but he must now face Spears from the enemy. Be slightly larger than normal cup shaped guard on the sword is used to capture the point of an enemies fear for just a moment. Hopefully, long enough that he can get a grapple on behalf of the enemies spear. From there he might shop at the half to disable the enemies fear or he might press forward into the enemy himself. Give me the design of the sword, no, I suspect that the first coat is to capture and chop the Spear of the enemy.
Whenever I'm not sure about something related to Chinese swords, I come to the same conclusion: ask Peter Dekker. Well known and respected Chinese arms expert and antique dealer.
I find it interesting that AFAIK we don't see a lot of (if any) disc guards on jian. You might expect that with a somewhat more thrust-oriented sword the more common type of guard would be the one that is shaped more like that of a smallsword, with better cover for the hand (although I realize that they were used in quite distinct ways).
a old Chinese fable, Matt . Prevent the hand from cover in blood and guts, to hold the sword tight
Mark Wildman trains with the Dao, you could ask him. That would be a great collaboration video.
I agree with everything you've put forward here, Matt. With cutting swords like these I bet it does help getting that guard weight down to keep that point of balance more towards the blade tip for those slashes. What an interesting and versatile design. c:
I always thought that one of the reasons could have been to slow down and partially prevent blood to drop on the handle to make it less slippery
It's probably a dust cover for the blade when it's in the scabbard. Occam's razor.
Your observations seem very relevant & scientific.
It's for when you make a reverse spin attack, with your shield held behind you at arm's length as a counterweight, and you stab your opponent clean through his plate armour, and his blood runs down the blood grooves in the blade, it catches in the cup so you can drink the blood of your fallen enemy. However, some of your theories are good too. ;) Joking apart, the dao is wider near the tip than near the hilt. Therefore the slot in the scabbard is not "full of blade" when the sword is all the way in. That implies a risk of the sword rattling, and an increased risk of rain getting in, compared to a parallel-bladed sword. If it was to restrict the angle of blade contact in a bind, the same could be achieved with a thin guard half an inch further from the hand.
You look good swinging and strafing with that sword. I want one
The points about comfort for wearing and keeping an opponent's blade
further from the hand makes sense. However, it should be remembered
that this particular type of dao, the oxtail dao, was (with a few
exceptions) pretty much only a civilian weapon, which would kind of
reinforce the point about comfort. That being said, being a civilian
weapon, it would have been unlikely that this type of dao would
encounter spears or other pole-arms. Additionally, regarding the use of
a rim to increase strength, wouldn't it be easier to simply make a
thicker flat disc than to go out of your way to make a thin outer rim (i
could be totally wrong about that)? Finally, looking at surviving
examples of different dao, it seems like the upturned rim tends to be
noticeably more pronounced on oxtail dao, compared to other types of dao
where they tend to have (shorter?) rims, or even no rim at all. I
don't know why that might be, and in fact, that pattern might not even
be representative of reality as i haven't seen a huge number of
surviving dao, it's just something i've noticed.
Everything you say makes good sense, especially the one about reinforcement, but the last idea about catching the point of a blade is the first thing I thought of.
I've done some Dao sparring (read not much) and I've never heard mention of the guard being used in that way but I am familiar with the jian and (at least in the style I practiced) there are many attacks that aim to spiral in around the opponent's blade with the intent to perform a quick push & pull cut along the opponent's weapon hand/ forearm. I don't know if there is a similarity with the Rapier in that sense but being able to detain the point from that kind of thrust would certainly be of benefit.
i guessed correctly about the rain guard. I guess it can catch spear points and sword points?
that zweihander montante spadone is WILD.
Since jian hilts also had a built in rain guard chape I would think the cup serves a similar purpose. Furthermore, earlier sabers like the liuyedao which had a flat disc guard usually had a blade collar much like the Japanese habaki, which also protected the blade from rain. However these would be more expensive as it’s an additional part and has to be fitted to the blade and scabbard. This cup guard does the job while saving manufacturing time, while providing better protection to boot.
A quick (not comprehensive) scan of the comments, found support for my fave hypothesis: rain guard. I guess it is more likely to rain than for one to catch the tip of an opponent's sword/dao/spearpoint in the cup guard. And even less likely that we will have a chance to drink the blood of our defeated opponent from our cup guard.
Now, if you can find evidence of ritualistic toasting before the battle, where to save time and logistics of providing cups for your warriors, the wine (or other alcoholic beverages) was poured into the cup guard of the dao, so the warriors can toast to victory, and chug their beverage before the charge...
It kept the rain out of swords by totally covering the scabbard opening. Pretty useful if you are part of a civilian militia and you have to pay for your own sword, you tend to want to look after them more.
I think it's a beautiful design, the cup can block opponent’s blade a little bit higher than simple cross guard and plain disk guard, give user more protection angle,
the problem of simple cross guard is that it’s too thin, too close to the hand, user will easily be cut if opponent’s blade tilts a little bit toward to the hand while blocking.
If you examine the techniques and tactics employed with the dao's usage, you will find there are quite a few move that are designed to 'trap' the opponent's weapon (often a spear) in that gap between the guard and the blade. This means that the guard itself will sustain quite a bit of impact throughout its lifetime. Using a cup rather than a disc extends the lifespan of the guard, while not needing to increase cost or affect the balance of the sword by thickening the whole thing.
It seems like if you catch a spear point in the cup, you could conceivably grab the shaft w.the off hand in that moment and then pass the point.
My number one assumption would be to keep the weather out. #2 a thin slice of vertical steel is stronger then it would be horizontally.
Its also possible that it was done simply for aesthetic reasons. A general (especially a chinese general, who generally wouldve been deeply involved in political/courtly matters) might want their soldiers arms and armor to look good in order to inspire/garner support from bystanders/future recruits. Such things are still done to this day with the dress wear of modern militaries.
My first thought was that it stops a thrust deflecting off the guard into the body or the arm, that makes perfect sense to me.
As you said Matt, it's likely a combination of reasoning and practicality, one small change can offer many advantages and for that time, if you're thinking of 'mass production' then this was much easier to make than a spherical guard.
Very interesting that some 'tsuba' had a raised edge too, I didn't know that.
Now I consider (Phlebas, sorry, a nod to the greatest SF writer I have ever read, Ian M Banks RIP) sorry for the aside, now I consider the downsides, if a blade/point is 'captured' then you cannot easily 'slip inside' or slip anywhere, if the cup caught the point of his weapon, then it also caught your sword, it might be your one handed sword getting pushed backwards by a two-handed weapon, if it was a simple spear, it can cut you on the return, for example.
My guess is that this was a feature of mass produced weapons for people who were not 'master-swordsmen' but rather; for armies or militia. Maybe it was best used in a 'system', look at the Roman 'Gladius/Spartha?', not very impressive swords per se' in a sword duel 'one-on-one' but deadly when used in coordinated units as part of an offensive system.
I really like the 'nuance' of a 'rolled -edge' tsuba, that ability to deflect or stop but then control the release, you can't do that with a 'cup guard'.
But what the hell do I know?
Pax dude.
Deeeffffinitely would like that Mongol swords video asap!!