Yeah, FR. Whoever’s watching this clip needs to watch the full interview, taking the very end of the conversation without explaining the context of how they established things to go from the beginning is messed up.
@@1stSonOfJames 😎 you are cool, my friend. Awesome that Dr. Peterson has such a positive reputation he is even defended in the comment section on RUclips. I assume you have a very clean room, my friend. 🤜🤛
@@RobertMJohnson do enlighten, you claim to know what other people are thinking and therefore claim to know their intentions, regardless of their words?
@@sonar245 he simply mispoke re: anorexia. he meant to say, "anorexics don't think they are thin enough whilst we know they are TOO THIN." it's pretty fucking simple.
@@RobertMJohnson I think we all know what he meant. Which is why you where the only doofus who felt the need to point out the obvious. Thank you for playing though.🦭
I have dealt with anorexia and gender dysphoria and 100% agree with Jordan on this and I'm glad he drew that comparison. They both came from the same place mentally for me, self dillusion and lack of control is what I would call it's cause and social media, and people showing off their transitions (or weight loss) made both of those issues so much worse for me. Thanks Jordan
I am so sorry you dealt with dysphoria. I do think that it is dangerous for us to make a blanket statements calling a Doc CRIMINAL. I think we should look into these situations individually. 2nd or maybe 3rd opinions could be required with 60-90 days between each opinion maybe. Jordan was 60% right. He did however UNFAIRLY make a blanket statement about whether or not gender reassignment is ethical. Extremely rare for Jordan to go too far but I can't be honest with how much I value and respect him without calling him out when I see he is in the wrong. That being said I hope you are doing better James and if you can't find the help and support you need reach out.
@@DocsChannel Thanks for the comment, I agree we should be careful around this sort of thing, and I am for the most part no longer dealing with dysphoria or my eating disorder thankfully.
The guy in the middle is me when a friend and his girlfriend are having a political discussion while we're out having a drink. That close-up was comedic gold.
JP is not destroying anybody he is only imparting wisdom. Most of the liberal ideas are always on my mind even the things that lookalike trans issues or anything psychological issue. I love them thought exercises 😤. Logical THROUGH & THROUGH
It's not a brilliant discussion - it is a respectful discussion. JP imparted some much-needed wisdom to this man who is confused. This man is seemingly willing to concede to JP's points. Which is important. Many others are not willing to concede to anything opposing their core ideas. Ultimately, while it got heated and they are both passionate, they both remained gentlemen.
@@zackmac5917 quite the sapient skirmish. There was intensity, ferosity, and a potent willingness to absorb one anothers points, if only to gain greater understanding to fuel a rebuttal. It's like we just watched a visual representation of 2 minds rolling on a mat, using only words.
Watching a hard conversation like this when two people aren't so much trying to be right about what it is they think they know but actually trying to find a solution and answers to the given problem and showing respect at the same time is like watching Bigfoot ride across the road on the back of a unicorn. Well done, gentlemen. THIS is how you have a conversation.
What impressed me about this clip is how BOTH men actually CONCEDE certain points in the interest of finding a common solution. They may walk away with different value & statistical based beliefs, but BOTH men wanted nothing more than finding a solution without trying to over-simplify and strawman the other. THANK YOU!!!
I always get the same vibe when watching Glenn Loury and John McWhorter talk. You can practically see their ideas evolving as the conversation continues.
What a phenomenal conversation. This is really one of the few times I have seen anybody both articulate their points and listen to what Peterson is actually saying without prematurely vilifying him. This is how discourse should be and the only way to make headway on the important issues of our time.
Not the 1st time. Have a look at Jordan Peterson and Susan Blackmore on Genes and Memes. She listened without judging and it was a Mind Blowing conversation.
because they both believe in reason.. the sad thing is that there's an extremist wave now that doesn't believe in reason nor anything except imposing what they feel is right
It impresses me when two people can argue passionately about a subject, one than they both truly care about, and not get pissed off at each other. Something I need to work on.
Please do your best to work on it - I say this as it's crucial for the future of healthy discourse that people can put their egos and pride aside and approach conversations not to assert their dominance or that they are right but rather to try and find a solution to the problem.
As a former, ne' current anorexic. I completely see JP's explanation. I no longer look like a skeleton, yet when I think of myself, I still feel like a fat pig. My younger half brother from my father's second marriage is currently identifying as a female or non-binary, not sure which. When he stopped by a couple of Christmas' ago (with his girlfriend) he was also a vegan. His age at his time of "transition" and my age at the time of anorexia (and also being a vegan) were mirrored. My personal belief is that everyone goes through a transitional time in their young adult lives. Some choose to tow the line, others to swim against the current. I personally believe that there is an insidious undercurrent to bring lost or searching souls to the dark side. Not meant to be funny or referring to anyone or anything, just that if you're unsure, don't...DO NOT GO ALL IN!!!!!
So true about insidious people trying to destroy the lost souls in our society. They used to do it with drugs, trying to make drugs look hip and trendy and offer them to people who felt out on the periphery.
Anorexia and gender dysphoria are essentially the same thing, inasmuch as they’re about self-perception that is untethered from reality. Take any gender ideologue and swap out all the trans references for anorexic advocacy - claiming that people suffering from anorexia and starving themselves are ‘living their best, true lives’ and demanding that we all celebrate and affirm their actions, no matter how self-destructive. They would sound like utter sociopaths. But because they’ve cloaked their advocacy in compassion and inclusiveness, they get a pass. Madness.
"If in finding your true identity you violate a cultural norm that's so profound that you destabilize the entire country, the entire culture, then maybe you don't have the right to do that, even if it actualizes yourself." Wisdom for all.
I agree to an extent, i dont think the act itself destabilizes the culture more so its the media behind it and how its glamorized, its not glamorus if it was told more factually people would see it for what it is
@@marioeid930 the point is that it creates a domino affect and then everyone has to be castrated in the name of self-actualization. What is self actualization? I've heard of it, but never thought about it. Sounds like a narcissistic term to me. Who ever stays the same "self", anyway? Life is complicated enough already, with terms like "finding your self", good luck. There is no concrete thing called a self. The harder you try to actualize it, the further it slips away.
That is not wisdom, that is the typical christian argument that deems the norm as the opposite of progressive degeneracy. The problem with this argument is that progressivism is not degeneracy. Peterson would certainly not denounce the accomplishments of feminism, even though feminism has radically changed our culture. The idea that somehow our culture falls apart from people having the choice to transition and not feel bad about it, is a falsehood
I do not agree with this, and im shocked Peterson would say something like this, is like saying ''killing the Individual self development for the sake of the collective? Thats horrible, and its more horrible coming from Jordan who stands with West values such as ''The individual is Primal''
This whole conversation is actually one of my favourites. Seeing JP challenged by one his friends/advisors in order to keep him grounded, is fascinating to watch. He has a great team around him.
I might subscribe to the daily wire just for that…conversation, contradiction from your base , friend colleague is the best thing that can happen to him and his « followers ».
I loved this episode of his podcast. I think Peterson knew those tweets he made were a misstep, and he's learning that Twitter isn't a good place for his platform(or any, for that matter).
@@bigguy7353 ok then I'll rephrase, 'seeing a friend take up a position of disagreement, rather than just being a nodding Yes Man.' Will that do for ya? 🤔
This is how gentleman and professionals communicate. Listen up and take notes! Notice how easily one is okay to acknowledge that they don’t know something. No ego just getting to the bottom of a topic at hand
@@ZIgnorantProdigy Agreed. It's a shame they feel the need to use this sort of title. This is a great example of how to debate and converse. It needs to be spread far and wide with a truthful title.
Why does everyone make this exact comment during debates? Differing versions of this sentiment are made in almost every debate video. Are there really that many people new to these sorts of video?
@@petedeards The question was about Peterson's tweet...specifically the claim that the doctor was criminal. The case being referred to was about an adult going through an elective surgery. There's no valid comparison, or logic, or critical thinking to be seen here. Peterson is just dodging the question by gaslighting.
“An anorexic who thinks they are not thin enough, are they really not thin enough”? The guy didn’t answer this question and it truly is a crucial question.
Yep. He has a tendency to just move on, instead of sitting for a moment, and thinking... This guy operates on emotions and you could tell when he said he wouldn't have Dave Chapelle over because of his trans family member
I'd be interested to hear what exactly this guy means when he says someone can be "born in the wrong body". If a guy is short and ugly but he feels like he should be tall and handsome (which basically every short/ugly guy will feel) does that mean he was born in the wrong body? No, it means he feels unhappy with his body, but its still HIS body.
Exactly. When there is salt in the pot and all the water boils down, we see what's left over. Once we strip away all the claims and actually look at what's there, is YOUR body. It's just body dismorphia. Plain and simple. Plus, honestly with all the chemicals inside our food and our air. All the artificial hormones in fluoride and all the rest of it, I think a lot of this stuff is being accelerated by an imbalance of hormones. That's just a hypothesis I have. I am bald, and I have brown eyes. Maybe I was born in the wrong body. And now taxpayer's must pay for my surgery and for me to get blue eye implants, etc.... there is no line when you go down this road. It's a cliff at the end, we must turn back.
People develop all kinds of delusions. Some people think they are dead and ask to be buried. Some people think they are made of glass and worry they will shatter if the strike a hard object. Some people think they are Jesus and demand worship. Can anybody explain why believing you are a sex that you are not is different from any other delusion?
Exactly. There are people who obsess about amputating their limbs. So if you want to amputate your leg you are rightfully considered mentally ill. But suddenly if you want to amputate your penis it's a great idea and the doctors will help you! Smh.
@@DeadEndFrog religion is a complex system of metaphysical belief and moral law, usually thousands of years old and handed down from Generation to generation alongside and part of the inheritance of culture. Delusion in this comment’s example is believing you are something you’re not. The anorexia example is not a JP original, but it’s a good one. It’s an individual believing they are something they objectively are not. It’s a psychological problem. That’s why gender dysphoria is in the DSM but not religious belief.
This conversation hit's close to home because I know 3 young woman (one being my cousin) personally who all identify as trans who have either started or want to start transitioning. It's heartbreaking to watch.
I am turning 50yo today and suffered from Gender Dysphoria, but I am still glad I grew up in a generation that didn't label me as "TRANS" but learned to love myself without Pharma Drugs or Plastic Surgery. I feel bad for kids today that they are told they are helpless and their depression will lead to suicide unless they get on puberty blockers and change their appearance. I am also South Korean and disgusted with the normalization of Plastic Surgery in South Korea. It isn't mere irony that Bruce/Kaitlyn belonged to the family who normalized Plastic Surgery in America. Jordan Peterson knew that he was going to get the backlash because well he is criticizing a very fragile little girl...wait Elliot is now a Straight White Male....the criticism is fair game especially when this same person has yet to apologize for his support for Jussie Smollett. Lets face the fact. Elliott Page decided to become an Activist. Activists requires critique from Public. Elliot cannot go on bashing Chris Pratt for no reason and then claim victimhood/transphobia when Elliot becomes the target for criticism. Equal Rights? Equal criticism.
Well, I'm a 40 year old trans woman and my gender dysphoria is making my life horrible. If I could go back in time I'd get those puberty blockers any way I could, even if I had to go behind my father's back. I'm not suicidal but I do self harm pretty weekly, by slapping and clawing at my face as a way to punish it for going through a male puberty... Since it is my face that usually clues ppl in that "that's a man" I don't see the virtue in just learning to love whatever nature gives you and why it's bad to make changes to your body. That's a classic appeal to nature fallacy And "equal rights, equal criticism" God I hate when ppl say that! As if trans PPL START OUT on equal footing as cis ppl. Do you think Elliot suddenly acquires cis male privilege now?
@@lj5190 for me, I dread getting out of bed, cuz I know it just gonna be another day of the same ol "sir this, sir that", torment, anger, sadness, regret, rage, vengefulness, feeling like I'm not living but merely existing, feeling like I was screwed out of earlier life phases. It's hell basically. And why are you calling her Bruce/Caitlin? Her name is literally LEGALLY Caitlin now. "Equal rights equal criticism" God I hate when ppl say that! Yeah because trans ppl totally start out on EQUAL FOOTING as cis ppl. Do you think Elliot just suddenly gets cis male privilege because he transitioned? I'm a trans woman, so if I jump up in a man's face a mouth off to him, do you think I'm not gonna get knocked the F out because I'm declared myself a woman?
@@jonnaking3054 But what specifically makes you want to be a woman versus the man you were born as? For example, I’m a biological male. I don’t “feel like a man”, I just feel like me. Does that make sense?
@@jonnaking3054 - I am confused as to why Equal rights equal criticism is considered offensive. That should be what every individual should be striving for? You want equal rights but still want to remain a forever victim?
I love how Jordan is getting so worn out by all this that he's starting to show his frustration with people intentionally missing his point. He almost face palmed at the beginning, lol.
🍀🙏🏻 Jordan does not destroy his friend. Both his friend and Jordan exchange great arguments while carefully listening to one another. Well, maybe. Who knows.
I grew up as a feminine boy who thought he might be gay. I can't imagine the turmoil I would've went thru if sex changes were normalized in children then.
Most people who decide to transition are either attention seeking, or have serious mental health issues, or both. Its not "hateful" to mention this, its truth.
It's great that he chooses to go after the trans problem, because he's one of the only people in the public eye that is credentialed enough to have an informed and relevant opinion on the subject, and certainly one of the only people with the courage to do so. Most reasonable people with a half a brain are thinking along the lines of his critiques and questions, but are too worried about being ruined or cancelled for doing so.
JP courts controversy. I don’t think he is brave. He is provocative and enjoys it. This is what has made him a hero to many and very rich I might add. Others who are just as credentialed as he is don’t hold his views. I’d say that his views are more aligned to biblical constructs, i.e. God rebukes gays. To me I think it’s polite and respectful to refer to anyone as they’d like to be referred to. JP likes to be called a Doctor. If a friend wants to be called “deuce”, I oblige.
@@DaveRossignol Nothing you said was correct. He is stressed to the max by controversy, but resigned himself to doing so or else his right to speech would have been taken away entirely. That's where his "fame" began. And if you're talking about getting wealthy from something, it isn't straying too far from the topic of this discussion to say that surgeons are "recommending" that children get these procedures because they are very expensive and will become lifelong patients.
@@DaveRossignol You're comparing referring to someone as a doctor, WHO IS a doctor, and who studied to be a doctor, and practiced as one for years, to the forced use of pronouns? Seriously? Also, I am pretty sure JP, would be fine with someone simply calling him JP.
@@saltedllama2759 I'm transgender, and I get misgendered and treated like crap pretty much on a daily basis, and I just don't see this "pitchfork-toating transgender mob" going after people to destroy their lives for misgendering and take over society. If anything I feel like I have to keep my mouth shut or at the most I might WHISPER a correction like "it's she" under my breath and just HOPE I won't start a huge conflict. So, yeah, no one's ever been fired, jailed, taken to court, nor had their lives ruined by calling me a man nor by misgendering me. However I HAVE been fired for being trans, so yeah just not seeing it
@@James-qu6ul Trust me, if someone referred to JP by "she/her" pronouns he would complain... like most ALL cis people do when they get misgendered... most people do not like their identities being mistaken, it's not just a trans thing. Also I'm a trans woman and my pronouns are she/her, but people refer to me by he/him pronouns LOUDLY and PROUDLY on a daily basis, and I don't feel like I can even SPEAK UP for fear of, oh, getting fired from my job or to a less extent just causing a huge controversy... SO yeah I don't really see the whole "forced pronoun" thing that JP is MORALLY PANICKING about
“People can be confused for a very, very long time”. So simple. So true. One of the major problems today is that most folks don’t have the prerequisite skill set to work their way “through the weeds” because they can’t read dense prose. (i.e. the common complaint about books being too academic on Amazon reviews). Fictional stories and video have pretty much replaced reading in the younger generations although I am more hopeful that the post-millennial group is getting back to reading, especially history and ancient philosophy, based on my own experience as an educator and a father. This is why listening to Dr Peterson is worthwhile ( his guests like these two - not so much! - although his doing so is part of the greater work). Seems a lot of people have tuned into the Bible as a result of his lectures, but that’s just a start. If he can actually get young people to read Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Freud, Jung and so many others back to the Pre-Socratics , then I’m all for it. They’ll still need to work through the morass of speculative Christian Theology and the ton of post-Enlightenment ( and post-modern) material since the knowledge of the true philosophers and their “pagan ways” were so twisted so as to be “effectively “erased. That’s what been destroyed, not the ideas of a modern “liberal”.
@@forsakenquery He explored issues he was concerned about it. In that case, if he was destroyed, then peterson got pretty challenged too. Peterson respected the conversation and his topic and so did he.
The point about the danger of crushing the ideal is so solid. We all know what the ideal is. Men are men, women are women - and they compliment each other biologically and socially. That's human flourishing. Having an ideal is also inherently discriminatory, because it excludes by virtue of selecting something over something else.
You better believe it! 👍🏼 I read the comments and some folks give him the benefit of the doubt. I even find him confrontational from the very beginning. Like the one that shouts the loudest is the one that is right. “Just because you feel offended doesn’t mean you are right” - Charlie Kirk - And I agree one million %
this how a good discussion is supposed to be held. you question the other to better understand their argument and to test your own assumptions as well when presented with new information.
If he truly believes that transgenderism is a psychological illness, I think it's wrong to criticize the patient. The first step is to listen to them. If people keep emphasizing the "Biological difference" and refuse to call them what they identify as, isn't it natural that they feel the only way is to alter their bodies? Such a hypocrite.
When your entire argument revolves around opinions, and you never integrate a single fact, you will be forced into a corner that only speaks in anecdotes. The major problem of toxic compassion. So many more will suffer for the sake of the narcissist.
6:12 "It's hard enough to be gay..." In the modern western world, being gay is no harder than being heterosexual. As a matter of fact, one might argue that there's more support networks in place for the former. So let's dispense with the pity parade. Btw I have multiple spinal injuries courtesy of another road user & received NO compensation. That's hard!!! Who you choose to have sex with doesn't even rate a mention.
"In the modern western world, being gay is no harder than being heterosexual." Well, that depends on the community that person is in. I would not want to be a gay teen in a highly Christian town convinced that being gay is a choice...or a demon...that just needs to be exorcised out of a person. "Btw I have multiple spinal injuries courtesy of another road user & received NO compensation. " You must live in the USA. In every other first world country with socialized medicine, there's a variety of free stuff for you to take advantage of. "Who you choose to have sex with doesn't even merit a mention." I dunno man. I'm not aware of any major political push to demonize and dehumanize people with spinal injuries like there is with highly religious zealots demonizing and dehumanizing gay people.
No it’s not the same, and it definitely depends on the community. First of all your potential partners are reduced to a tenth, second guys act a lot different than women, especially about other guys. In life, guys hit on women all the time who aren’t attracted to them. The result usually isn’t usually women getting mad or threatening to punch them, if they’re respectful about it.A lot of guys act a lot more stupid in general about guys being attracted to them that they’re not interested in, whereas women are used to that just being a fact of life, people will be attracted to you that you’re not interested in. Guys can act like it’s some crime or fighting words. Then there’s the fact that just a lot of religious people pretend it’s some cardinal sin and are ignorantly judgmental to the point they pretend what they do aren’t sins “the same way” as if all the other ways they don’t even follow their own religion don’t matter, it’s “the gays” that are going to hell.. There are completely anti-religious areas where a fundamentalist Christian may get more flock than a gay guy, but it’s simply not the same as being straight.
This just shows that Dr. Peterson is not only a great psychologist but also a modern day philosopher. The way he breaks everything down to detail shows how much time he put into analyzing the specific topic and understands how many countless dimensions it can go, from years of experience, something which can't be bought but only earned through years of seeking wisdom. The host on the other hand was the fern from inbetween two ferns, he said absolutely nothing on this entire 11 minute long debate, just sat there 😄
Man, I wish I was educated enough to keep up. But I do love listening to them be respectful and actually listen to each other. Have 3 young beautiful girls and before I settled down I lived a wild life. But have never worried about anything but worry now about the world that they will grow up in.
Um...if you were educated and knowledgeable enough, you would of been worried about a heck of a lot throughout your whole life. Fearmongering has been a staple of both right and left politics for well over 50 years.
When I was young (70s/80s) I experienced Body Dysmorphic Disorder and depression. I was healthy, slim, athletic, attractive. I felt ugly and very self-conscious. If I had been of a wealthy family or if the National Health Service was catering to my beliefs about myself - I would be unrecognisable today. Various surgeries would have taken place, and I would surely hate myself for it. I would not be young again for any amount of money or incentive - especially in these times. I am so lucky to have been born in the 60's. Hope I pop my clogs before the world goes full r*tard.
Libral friend constantly attacks Jordan.. And when Jordan explains. The libral trows up.. you are attacking. This is not a exploring the subject... But sounds like a fight. The libral dies not want to loose.. His self righteousness
Someone who gets 500 tattoos on their face doesn't demand you say they look lovely. They don't try to get the government to force you to say they look lovely. They don't obliterate their past and make you pretend there was ever a time when they didn't have 500 tattoos.
@@jsogman If you were born with male or female genitalia…….. that is reality. Thinking or feeling that you are something else…… is being out of agreement 👍
@@jsogman I would like to thank you for proving my point about "Insanity". You could put on a tin foil hat, and think you are in communication with the Gamma Quadrant......it after all it is real to you. But, the minute you try to force your opinion on society......and society clearly rejects your reality as "Insanity". Society is saying, we do NOT have to support you morally or financially....which you think that we must do👍
I haven't seen a good intellectual debate with two separate opposing parties, who were capable of respectful dialog in a depressingly long time. This all began to become so out of control, and polarizing in 2015. Since then no one has been allowed to question any popular ideology publicly without facing harsh consequences and backlash. Mostly because the side of the popular viewpoint is unable, and unwilling to be questioned, or disagreed with at any level. We have never in the history of the United States been in a situation where our entire ability to communicate with our fellow Americans has been suppressed at this level. Whether we like it or not, we have a relationship with each other. We share the same country, and our relationship as countrymen/women is something that cannot be ignored, and the act of communicating with each other is imperative to be successful! Just as any other relationship, without proper communication, you are dead in the water! We need many more people who are willing to discuss serious issues, and willing to be flexible, and open to hearing from each other. It is absolutely mandatory to move forward, and this division does absolute damage to the AVERAGE person, and it gives total control to the elites who are getting rich off the backs of the American citizens.
It's a she; how long do you think it will be before she decides she wants her beautiful breast back? How many people actually knew who she was before her "transformation"?
Such a respectful, amicable discussion. If only everyone spoke to each other this way when they don't agree on topics, you might actually get somewhere and solve problems.
Hyper emotional and evil is my take. Personally, I'd like to see everyone who even thinks that this "trans" kid stuff should be in any way normalized impaled on pikes lining the highways.
@@muddywitch9016 had to google it lol, you're saying his liberal friend is emotionally unrestrained? That is some dumb shit. Ur just mad cuz his opinion is different than yours. Also thats the kind of dumb shit JP haters say when JP starts crying during interviews.
Pageau's the TRUE hero here, and one which we'd all do well to emulate. He proves himself an intelligent, respectful person by not opening his bearded mouth just to spout some unasked-for opinions into a conversation between two OTHER people while he's sitting directly between them. What I wouldn't give to see that skill more rampant.
I wish the internet was filled with more content like this - sensible arguments and a reasonable discussion. I wish both of these people were politicians. I would vote for either of them.
Oh my lord how has this not hit the main page already??? Jordan's remark at 6:49 is SO IMPORTANT!!! Like, yeas MAYBE your individual satisfaction takes a backseat to the greater good of society. Well yeah, isn't that the predicate of 95% of law? Like yes, I get personal fulfillment doing X illegal thing. Well jeeze Bob you can't just get self fulfillment by un@living your neighbors. Can't put up with that. Great clip. Good responses.
Peterson wasn't preaching ANY of that during the COVID epidemic....I wonder why. His hypocrisy is really a bit much sometimes....as well as the gullibility of his 'followers'.
@@MichaelJames-lz7ni How? By pointing out that Canada's response to Covid was overblown and they shouldn't have screwed over the truckers and called them Nazis?
@@suckieduckie Canada's response to COVID was appropriate - the truckers, and the general public, had a responsibility to the greater-good of society versus individual satisfaction. Which is EXACTLY what Peterson just said. No person can control who they infect with COVID, and no one has a 'right' to infect others with a potentially-fatal virus. Not in Canada, not anywhere.
@@MichaelJames-lz7ni Does this logic that you don't have the right to infect others apply to any other virus? How severe does a virus need to be to reach the cut off point? Do we now need to lock down when it's flue season? When it became clear that Omikron was much more mild, was it useful for Canada to force people to be vaccinated or lose their job eventhough Covid numbers were down across the board? Was it useful for Canada to stay locked down while other western countries were opening up, eventhough Canada has a much less dense population?
I would love to see a conversation between Jordan and Elliot, I don't believe Elliot understood the true ramifications of what is going on the way Jordan does. I think they could work together to clean this mess up.
Page is a rather unintelligent person that lives in the Hollywood-bubble. I don't think a conversation could ever be had nor would she even be open to accept the fact that maybe some of her views need to be challenged.
@@GobiLux I think most of us are in the grand scheme of things, I'm sure they could find common ground though and really do a lot of good for this situation.
@@jw-fb1iq I don't know where the common ground would be. She is screaming about perceived violence against trans people on national TV while Jordan Peterson is pointing out the dangers of compelled speech.
He talks about negotiating and yet there seems to be a fair amount of censorship on the issue. You can't really have a negotiation under those circumstances.
“We are surgically transforming children that we are no longer allowed to talk to.” In other words, carve them up and hope their are no negative consequences. 😳😡
It's extremely rare to find high quality debates on anything, in particular on this divisive subject. Regardless of your opinion on this matter, you have to appreciate the honesty and respect demonstrated here. More of this please!!!!!!!
JBP can breakdown a clinical/ social issue to the T so rationally and articulate that even I find that what he says makes a lot of sense. Halfway through this debate (intellectual shellacking I would call it) you could sense abdication from the other party. The mediator perfect 👍🏼 Mad props to him!!!
It’s incredible and genuinely uplifting to see Jordan Peterson in a conversation with someone who respects him and seems to be near a similar intelligence level. Honestly it’s inspiring. Oh and that is a click bait title, it’s pretty misleading
Truly one of the few videos that makes old me understand what’s going on in the world or these young kids nowadays and what re we really dealing with. Thanks for uploading
He compared getting a face tattoo to gender reassignment. In the US you must be at least 18 to get a tattoo. That’s the point! It’s about protecting kids from making life-long decisions before they’ve developed enough to make such decisions.
Amazing that a discussion, debate, or even an argument, has become "destructive". I thought it was the only way we learned? Challenge what you think you know.
By definition, if something is LEGAL it's not CRIMINAL! Criminal has a legal definition. If Jordan thinks its IMMORAL, he should just call it immoral. And no Jordan, what the Nazis did to the Jews was not criminal, it was WRONG, and totally immoral, but since it was legal, by definition it wasn't criminal. What you mean to say is, not everything that's legal isn't immoral
Same notion applies when discussing schizophrenic patients. Do we want to go along with their delusions believing there are people standing in the corner of their room with knives & noises telling them to off themselves? Are there voices in their head telling them that they are worthless & that they should believe them? Do we humor the idea that everyone is watching them at every second of every day? Let’s encourage them to believe these delusions, let’s not get them help because what they believe to be real is real.. let’s ignore the likely chance of them killings themselves because it’s their truth. See how crazy this gets when applied to actual mental disorders instead of children who have hormonal imbalances due to bad nutrition that start feeling the opposite sex & are preyed upon by the marxists in power wanting to destroy our culture? This “issue” is here to cause confusion, division & destruction of our culture / country & it’s coming from a certain ideology.
JP is not at all looking to "destroy" anyone here, he is after clarifying and the truth of the issue.
Yeah, FR. Whoever’s watching this clip needs to watch the full interview, taking the very end of the conversation without explaining the context of how they established things to go from the beginning is messed up.
It’s just a clickbait title. We know Dr. Peterson is about clarity.
@@1stSonOfJames 😎 you are cool, my friend. Awesome that Dr. Peterson has such a positive reputation he is even defended in the comment section on RUclips. I assume you have a very clean room, my friend.
🤜🤛
@John yeah by showing them truth and logic
@@user-dy5ho4sj2w When you watch petersons FULL debates for YEARS, youll understand.
"An anorexic believes they aren't thin enough. Does that mean they're not thin enough?" that is a good way to say it
we all know what he meant even tho he stated it incorrectly
@@RobertMJohnson do enlighten, you claim to know what other people are thinking and therefore claim to know their intentions, regardless of their words?
@@RobertMJohnson what did he mean?
@@sonar245 he simply mispoke re: anorexia. he meant to say, "anorexics don't think they are thin enough whilst we know they are TOO THIN." it's pretty fucking simple.
@@RobertMJohnson I think we all know what he meant. Which is why you where the only doofus who felt the need to point out the obvious. Thank you for playing though.🦭
I have dealt with anorexia and gender dysphoria and 100% agree with Jordan on this and I'm glad he drew that comparison. They both came from the same place mentally for me, self dillusion and lack of control is what I would call it's cause and social media, and people showing off their transitions (or weight loss) made both of those issues so much worse for me. Thanks Jordan
You dealt with dysphoria? You appear to be a man. If it’s not prying, might I ask what stopped you?
I am so sorry you dealt with dysphoria. I do think that it is dangerous for us to make a blanket statements calling a Doc CRIMINAL. I think we should look into these situations individually. 2nd or maybe 3rd opinions could be required with 60-90 days between each opinion maybe. Jordan was 60% right. He did however UNFAIRLY make a blanket statement about whether or not gender reassignment is ethical. Extremely rare for Jordan to go too far but I can't be honest with how much I value and respect him without calling him out when I see he is in the wrong.
That being said I hope you are doing better James and if you can't find the help and support you need reach out.
@@DocsChannel Thanks for the comment, I agree we should be careful around this sort of thing, and I am for the most part no longer dealing with dysphoria or my eating disorder thankfully.
Not dysphoria
The guy in the middle is me when a friend and his girlfriend are having a political discussion while we're out having a drink. That close-up was comedic gold.
Nobody destroyed anyone this was a brilliant discussion
JP is not destroying anybody he is only imparting wisdom. Most of the liberal ideas are always on my mind even the things that lookalike trans issues or anything psychological issue. I love them thought exercises 😤. Logical THROUGH & THROUGH
A brilliant discussion? People arguing what a woman is. The world has gone insane.
It's not a brilliant discussion - it is a respectful discussion.
JP imparted some much-needed wisdom to this man who is confused.
This man is seemingly willing to concede to JP's points. Which is important. Many others are not willing to concede to anything opposing their core ideas.
Ultimately, while it got heated and they are both passionate, they both remained gentlemen.
but "destroyed" in the title gets all the JP fanbois on the bandwagon.
@@zackmac5917 quite the sapient skirmish.
There was intensity, ferosity, and a potent willingness to absorb one anothers points, if only to gain greater understanding to fuel a rebuttal.
It's like we just watched a visual representation of 2 minds rolling on a mat, using only words.
Watching a hard conversation like this when two people aren't so much trying to be right about what it is they think they know but actually trying to find a solution and answers to the given problem and showing respect at the same time is like watching Bigfoot ride across the road on the back of a unicorn. Well done, gentlemen. THIS is how you have a conversation.
Thought I was the only one that used “Bigfoot riding a unicorn.”
@@machinegun_noise well its not like a unicorn could ride a bigfoot ....cmon man
What impressed me about this clip is how BOTH men actually CONCEDE certain points in the interest of finding a common solution. They may walk away with different value & statistical based beliefs, but BOTH men wanted nothing more than finding a solution without trying to over-simplify and strawman the other.
THANK YOU!!!
I couldn’t have said it better myself, and that’s the highest praise I can give.
I always get the same vibe when watching Glenn Loury and John McWhorter talk. You can practically see their ideas evolving as the conversation continues.
I'm so happy that JP is able to call someone he disagrees with his friend. I am so tired of polarization.
Glad to see others recognising this as a great discussion not a case of one perspective destroying another. We need more of this.
"We are surgically transforming children we're not allowed to talk to"
- JBP
What a phenomenal conversation. This is really one of the few times I have seen anybody both articulate their points and listen to what Peterson is actually saying without prematurely vilifying him. This is how discourse should be and the only way to make headway on the important issues of our time.
Not the 1st time. Have a look at Jordan Peterson and Susan Blackmore on Genes and Memes. She listened without judging and it was a Mind Blowing conversation.
@@thegulagarchipelago5921 Definitely not the first or last time. These comments just want likes. But yeah, it was a nice conversation.
People vilify people who think for themselves most of the time. Most people prefer thinking with the herd.
@@Marina-sp6hz the comment just said it was the first time *they* had seen it.
@@reniefuwa Thanks Irene
Great conversation that never went off the rails. A sign of respect and intelligence.
because they both believe in reason.. the sad thing is that there's an extremist wave now that doesn't believe in reason nor anything except imposing what they feel is right
It impresses me when two people can argue passionately about a subject, one than they both truly care about, and not get pissed off at each other. Something I need to work on.
Please do your best to work on it - I say this as it's crucial for the future of healthy discourse that people can put their egos and pride aside and approach conversations not to assert their dominance or that they are right but rather to try and find a solution to the problem.
No destruction. 2 Mature men discussing this topic brilliantly. Well done to you both.
As a former, ne' current anorexic. I completely see JP's explanation. I no longer look like a skeleton, yet when I think of myself, I still feel like a fat pig. My younger half brother from my father's second marriage is currently identifying as a female or non-binary, not sure which. When he stopped by a couple of Christmas' ago (with his girlfriend) he was also a vegan. His age at his time of "transition" and my age at the time of anorexia (and also being a vegan) were mirrored. My personal belief is that everyone goes through a transitional time in their young adult lives. Some choose to tow the line, others to swim against the current. I personally believe that there is an insidious undercurrent to bring lost or searching souls to the dark side. Not meant to be funny or referring to anyone or anything, just that if you're unsure, don't...DO NOT GO ALL IN!!!!!
It looks like you got all your father's wisdom genes.
So true about insidious people trying to destroy the lost souls in our society. They used to do it with drugs, trying to make drugs look hip and trendy and offer them to people who felt out on the periphery.
Well said
Spread the story of your experience
Anorexia and gender dysphoria are essentially the same thing, inasmuch as they’re about self-perception that is untethered from reality.
Take any gender ideologue and swap out all the trans references for anorexic advocacy - claiming that people suffering from anorexia and starving themselves are ‘living their best, true lives’ and demanding that we all celebrate and affirm their actions, no matter how self-destructive. They would sound like utter sociopaths. But because they’ve cloaked their advocacy in compassion and inclusiveness, they get a pass.
Madness.
Pageau's face at 3:35 is all of us watching this clip from home hahaha
Hahaha so on point
Great conversation, but nobody was “Destroyed”.
"If in finding your true identity you violate a cultural norm that's so profound that you destabilize the entire country, the entire culture, then maybe you don't have the right to do that, even if it actualizes yourself."
Wisdom for all.
I agree to an extent, i dont think the act itself destabilizes the culture more so its the media behind it and how its glamorized, its not glamorus if it was told more factually people would see it for what it is
@@marioeid930 the point is that it creates a domino affect and then everyone has to be castrated in the name of self-actualization. What is self actualization? I've heard of it, but never thought about it. Sounds like a narcissistic term to me. Who ever stays the same "self", anyway? Life is complicated enough already, with terms like "finding your self", good luck. There is no concrete thing called a self. The harder you try to actualize it, the further it slips away.
@@marioeid930 but rereading your comment, I see what you meant and I agree. I misread you. Sorry for assuming you missed the point.
That is not wisdom, that is the typical christian argument that deems the norm as the opposite of progressive degeneracy. The problem with this argument is that progressivism is not degeneracy. Peterson would certainly not denounce the accomplishments of feminism, even though feminism has radically changed our culture. The idea that somehow our culture falls apart from people having the choice to transition and not feel bad about it, is a falsehood
I do not agree with this, and im shocked Peterson would say something like this, is like saying ''killing the Individual self development for the sake of the collective? Thats horrible, and its more horrible coming from Jordan who stands with West values such as ''The individual is Primal''
This whole conversation is actually one of my favourites. Seeing JP challenged by one his friends/advisors in order to keep him grounded, is fascinating to watch.
He has a great team around him.
I might subscribe to the daily wire just for that…conversation, contradiction from your base , friend colleague is the best thing that can happen to him and his « followers ».
I loved this episode of his podcast.
I think Peterson knew those tweets he made were a misstep, and he's learning that Twitter isn't a good place for his platform(or any, for that matter).
That wasn't a challenge in any sense of the word.
@@bigguy7353 ok then I'll rephrase, 'seeing a friend take up a position of disagreement, rather than just being a nodding Yes Man.'
Will that do for ya? 🤔
Let’s make this easy: face tattoos and all over body implants are also criminal. Not legally but ethically to the integrity and dignity of the body
Have we officially ruined “destroy” yet, or should we keep going?
The left says not enough, the left says we need more.
A bit like 'hilarious'. In a sense, that's lost its general meaning.
This is how gentleman and professionals communicate. Listen up and take notes! Notice how easily one is okay to acknowledge that they don’t know something. No ego just getting to the bottom of a topic at hand
I agree, and also the guy on the gender theory side sounds stupid Right Away, because the idea he has forced himself to defend is a BaD iDeA!
Exactly.
It's somewhat heated and there is passion, but it is ruled and guided by gentlemanly respect.
@@zackmac5917 and then ruined by the clickbaity title of DESTROYS....seemed awfully respectful and two sided
@@ZIgnorantProdigy Agreed. It's a shame they feel the need to use this sort of title.
This is a great example of how to debate and converse. It needs to be spread far and wide with a truthful title.
Why does everyone make this exact comment during debates? Differing versions of this sentiment are made in almost every debate video. Are there really that many people new to these sorts of video?
his anorexia example is so good
How? How does it justify calling a doctor who performed elective surgery on a 35 year old woman 'criminal'?
Yup… its facts… women act like mob. This agendas take advantage of that. Women ate the sheeple of this century
@@TheHigherVoltage it’s a good example of how complicated the “trans” logic really is when critical thought is applied
@@petedeards The question was about Peterson's tweet...specifically the claim that the doctor was criminal. The case being referred to was about an adult going through an elective surgery.
There's no valid comparison, or logic, or critical thinking to be seen here. Peterson is just dodging the question by gaslighting.
@@TheHigherVoltage No, you've just missed the point.
What a great conversation. Exactly what conversations should be like. Bravo
“An anorexic who thinks they are not thin enough, are they really not thin enough”?
The guy didn’t answer this question and it truly is a crucial question.
Yep. He has a tendency to just move on, instead of sitting for a moment, and thinking...
This guy operates on emotions and you could tell when he said he wouldn't have Dave Chapelle over because of his trans family member
That should have been his epiphany moment.
@@roberjohnsmith "i would NEVER HESITATE to have dave chapelle at my house" = he wouldn't
Guy in the middle to himself "damn I should have studied harder in school"...
A good old-fashioned debate. Only things missing were a bottle of scotch & cigars!
Man very well said
I didn't see him destroying, I saw him teaching a class.
You can tell there is mutual respect here despite the disagreements. I wish more people were like this.
I'd be interested to hear what exactly this guy means when he says someone can be "born in the wrong body". If a guy is short and ugly but he feels like he should be tall and handsome (which basically every short/ugly guy will feel) does that mean he was born in the wrong body? No, it means he feels unhappy with his body, but its still HIS body.
Exactly. When there is salt in the pot and all the water boils down, we see what's left over. Once we strip away all the claims and actually look at what's there, is YOUR body.
It's just body dismorphia. Plain and simple. Plus, honestly with all the chemicals inside our food and our air. All the artificial hormones in fluoride and all the rest of it, I think a lot of this stuff is being accelerated by an imbalance of hormones.
That's just a hypothesis I have.
I am bald, and I have brown eyes. Maybe I was born in the wrong body. And now taxpayer's must pay for my surgery and for me to get blue eye implants, etc.... there is no line when you go down this road. It's a cliff at the end, we must turn back.
yep the anorexic hates her body but that doesn't mean she should be allowed to destroy it.
People develop all kinds of delusions. Some people think they are dead and ask to be buried. Some people think they are made of glass and worry they will shatter if the strike a hard object. Some people think they are Jesus and demand worship.
Can anybody explain why believing you are a sex that you are not is different from any other delusion?
Trauma
Exactly. There are people who obsess about amputating their limbs. So if you want to amputate your leg you are rightfully considered mentally ill. But suddenly if you want to amputate your penis it's a great idea and the doctors will help you! Smh.
Well some delusions are accepted, such as religion, and Peterson accepted those too. Can someone tell me the diffrence?
@@DeadEndFrog do you really need someone to tell you the difference between believing in God and chopping your d!k off?
@@DeadEndFrog religion is a complex system of metaphysical belief and moral law, usually thousands of years old and handed down from Generation to generation alongside and part of the inheritance of culture.
Delusion in this comment’s example is believing you are something you’re not. The anorexia example is not a JP original, but it’s a good one. It’s an individual believing they are something they objectively are not. It’s a psychological problem. That’s why gender dysphoria is in the DSM but not religious belief.
This conversation hit's close to home because I know 3 young woman (one being my cousin) personally who all identify as trans who have either started or want to start transitioning. It's heartbreaking to watch.
Would love to know the ROOT CAUSE!
Its like getting into a lifetime of debt, cz its a financial decision.
This was a very good discussion. Jordan is at his best when he has this type of intellectual push back
😂 I love how Johnathan is just sitting there between the two like 😐😬
I am turning 50yo today and suffered from Gender Dysphoria, but I am still glad I grew up in a generation that didn't label me as "TRANS" but learned to love myself without Pharma Drugs or Plastic Surgery. I feel bad for kids today that they are told they are helpless and their depression will lead to suicide unless they get on puberty blockers and change their appearance. I am also South Korean and disgusted with the normalization of Plastic Surgery in South Korea. It isn't mere irony that Bruce/Kaitlyn belonged to the family who normalized Plastic Surgery in America. Jordan Peterson knew that he was going to get the backlash because well he is criticizing a very fragile little girl...wait Elliot is now a Straight White Male....the criticism is fair game especially when this same person has yet to apologize for his support for Jussie Smollett. Lets face the fact. Elliott Page decided to become an Activist. Activists requires critique from Public. Elliot cannot go on bashing Chris Pratt for no reason and then claim victimhood/transphobia when Elliot becomes the target for criticism. Equal Rights? Equal criticism.
What does gender dysphoria feel like?
Well, I'm a 40 year old trans woman and my gender dysphoria is making my life horrible. If I could go back in time I'd get those puberty blockers any way I could, even if I had to go behind my father's back. I'm not suicidal but I do self harm pretty weekly, by slapping and clawing at my face as a way to punish it for going through a male puberty... Since it is my face that usually clues ppl in that "that's a man"
I don't see the virtue in just learning to love whatever nature gives you and why it's bad to make changes to your body. That's a classic appeal to nature fallacy
And "equal rights, equal criticism" God I hate when ppl say that! As if trans PPL START OUT on equal footing as cis ppl.
Do you think Elliot suddenly acquires cis male privilege now?
@@lj5190 for me, I dread getting out of bed, cuz I know it just gonna be another day of the same ol "sir this, sir that", torment, anger, sadness, regret, rage, vengefulness, feeling like I'm not living but merely existing, feeling like I was screwed out of earlier life phases. It's hell basically.
And why are you calling her Bruce/Caitlin? Her name is literally LEGALLY Caitlin now.
"Equal rights equal criticism" God I hate when ppl say that! Yeah because trans ppl totally start out on EQUAL FOOTING as cis ppl. Do you think Elliot just suddenly gets cis male privilege because he transitioned? I'm a trans woman, so if I jump up in a man's face a mouth off to him, do you think I'm not gonna get knocked the F out because I'm declared myself a woman?
@@jonnaking3054 But what specifically makes you want to be a woman versus the man you were born as?
For example, I’m a biological male. I don’t “feel like a man”, I just feel like me.
Does that make sense?
@@jonnaking3054 - I am confused as to why Equal rights equal criticism is considered offensive. That should be what every individual should be striving for? You want equal rights but still want to remain a forever victim?
If only the 'friend' on the right wouldn't interrupt and talk over Jordan so much
I love how Jordan is getting so worn out by all this that he's starting to show his frustration with people intentionally missing his point. He almost face palmed at the beginning, lol.
He literally did face palm half way through. A heavy face palm
🍀🙏🏻 Jordan does not destroy his friend. Both his friend and Jordan exchange great arguments while carefully listening to one another. Well, maybe. Who knows.
Raw insightful conversation. Appreciate Jordan Peterson thank you.
I have huge respect for JP but I am glad someone went after him in a civil discourse manner about his choose of words
I grew up as a feminine boy who thought he might be gay. I can't imagine the turmoil I would've went thru if sex changes were normalized in children then.
Most people who decide to transition are either attention seeking, or have serious mental health issues, or both.
Its not "hateful" to mention this, its truth.
So you're a psychologist now? Or did your pastor put that idea into your head?
@@MichaelJames-lz7ni - my Imam did.
Why? Do you have a problem with my faith?
@@IISCAFFII Absolutely - your Imam is not an advocate for open-mindedness, freedom, or Science.
It's great that he chooses to go after the trans problem, because he's one of the only people in the public eye that is credentialed enough to have an informed and relevant opinion on the subject, and certainly one of the only people with the courage to do so. Most reasonable people with a half a brain are thinking along the lines of his critiques and questions, but are too worried about being ruined or cancelled for doing so.
JP courts controversy. I don’t think he is brave. He is provocative and enjoys it. This is what has made him a hero to many and very rich I might add. Others who are just as credentialed as he is don’t hold his views. I’d say that his views are more aligned to biblical constructs, i.e. God rebukes gays.
To me I think it’s polite and respectful to refer to anyone as they’d like to be referred to. JP likes to be called a Doctor. If a friend wants to be called “deuce”, I oblige.
@@DaveRossignol Nothing you said was correct. He is stressed to the max by controversy, but resigned himself to doing so or else his right to speech would have been taken away entirely. That's where his "fame" began. And if you're talking about getting wealthy from something, it isn't straying too far from the topic of this discussion to say that surgeons are "recommending" that children get these procedures because they are very expensive and will become lifelong patients.
@@DaveRossignol You're comparing referring to someone as a doctor, WHO IS a doctor, and who studied to be a doctor, and practiced as one for years, to the forced use of pronouns? Seriously? Also, I am pretty sure JP, would be fine with someone simply calling him JP.
@@saltedllama2759 I'm transgender, and I get misgendered and treated like crap pretty much on a daily basis, and I just don't see this "pitchfork-toating transgender mob" going after people to destroy their lives for misgendering and take over society. If anything I feel like I have to keep my mouth shut or at the most I might WHISPER a correction like "it's she" under my breath and just HOPE I won't start a huge conflict. So, yeah, no one's ever been fired, jailed, taken to court, nor had their lives ruined by calling me a man nor by misgendering me. However I HAVE been fired for being trans, so yeah just not seeing it
@@James-qu6ul Trust me, if someone referred to JP by "she/her" pronouns he would complain... like most ALL cis people do when they get misgendered... most people do not like their identities being mistaken, it's not just a trans thing. Also I'm a trans woman and my pronouns are she/her, but people refer to me by he/him pronouns LOUDLY and PROUDLY on a daily basis, and I don't feel like I can even SPEAK UP for fear of, oh, getting fired from my job or to a less extent just causing a huge controversy... SO yeah I don't really see the whole "forced pronoun" thing that JP is MORALLY PANICKING about
No destruction here, just a great discussion.
This isn’t destroying anyone. It’s just super healthy debate between 2 men looking for truth and a solution
A clinical psychologist would be more aware of the mindset and damage done than anyone else.
I think his friend is probably to busy being cool with his 'trans godson'
Disgusting.
JP has learned to temper his anger while staying on point and discussing rationally. Respect. He's improved.
“People can be confused for a very, very long time”.
So simple. So true.
One of the major problems today is that most folks don’t have the prerequisite skill set to work their way “through the weeds” because they can’t read dense prose. (i.e. the common complaint about books being too academic on Amazon reviews). Fictional stories and video have pretty much replaced reading in the younger generations although I am more hopeful that the post-millennial group is getting back to reading, especially history and ancient philosophy, based on my own experience as an educator and a father.
This is why listening to Dr Peterson is worthwhile ( his guests like these two - not so much! - although his doing so is part of the greater work).
Seems a lot of people have tuned into the Bible as a result of his lectures, but that’s just a start.
If he can actually get young people to read Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Freud, Jung and so many others back to the Pre-Socratics , then I’m all for it.
They’ll still need to work through the morass of speculative Christian Theology and the ton of post-Enlightenment ( and post-modern) material since the knowledge of the true philosophers and their “pagan ways” were so twisted so as to be “effectively “erased.
That’s what been destroyed, not the ideas of a modern “liberal”.
A great demonstration of how conversations need to be had.
I must've missed the part where he "destroyed" him. Sounded like a pretty reasonable conversation to me.
"Destroyed" is an easy click bait thing to put in a title, I guess.
He philosophically destroyed his BS rhetoric.
This was a legit destroy. Guy tried an appeal to emotion and got philosophically bodied. Props to him for listening and debating properly.
@@forsakenquery
He explored issues he was concerned about it.
In that case, if he was destroyed, then peterson got pretty challenged too.
Peterson respected the conversation and his topic and so did he.
@@DkKombo agreed. But Peterson got the better of the exchange and the other guy's arguments were nonsense.
The point about the danger of crushing the ideal is so solid. We all know what the ideal is. Men are men, women are women - and they compliment each other biologically and socially. That's human flourishing. Having an ideal is also inherently discriminatory, because it excludes by virtue of selecting something over something else.
Watching Pageau sit there listening to this heated back and forth, with saint-like peace on his face, is the most inspirational thing about this clip.
That dude constantly interrupting is destroying my patience
This guy is under the impression that JP hasn't actually thought very hard about these things.
You better believe it! 👍🏼 I read the comments and some folks give him the benefit of the doubt. I even find him confrontational from the very beginning. Like the one that shouts the loudest is the one that is right. “Just because you feel offended doesn’t mean you are right” - Charlie Kirk - And I agree one million %
They are extremely good friends and this is only one portion of a much lengthier discussion. Your assumption is wrong.
this how a good discussion is supposed to be held. you question the other to better understand their argument and to test your own assumptions as well when presented with new information.
IKR. His only argument was - "But what about feelings?"
@@JungleLarry some people see the world s binary. They can not process shades of grey
If he truly believes that transgenderism is a psychological illness, I think it's wrong to criticize the patient. The first step is to listen to them. If people keep emphasizing the "Biological difference" and refuse to call them what they identify as, isn't it natural that they feel the only way is to alter their bodies? Such a hypocrite.
When your entire argument revolves around opinions, and you never integrate a single fact, you will be forced into a corner that only speaks in anecdotes. The major problem of toxic compassion. So many more will suffer for the sake of the narcissist.
This whole "you didn't speak out about these other 10 things therefore you're not allowed to speak out about this one thing" argument is vapid as f.
6:12 "It's hard enough to be gay..." In the modern western world, being gay is no harder than being heterosexual. As a matter of fact, one might argue that there's more support networks in place for the former. So let's dispense with the pity parade.
Btw I have multiple spinal injuries courtesy of another road user & received NO compensation. That's hard!!! Who you choose to have sex with doesn't even rate a mention.
"In the modern western world, being gay is no harder than being heterosexual."
Well, that depends on the community that person is in. I would not want to be a gay teen in a highly Christian town convinced that being gay is a choice...or a demon...that just needs to be exorcised out of a person.
"Btw I have multiple spinal injuries courtesy of another road user & received NO compensation. "
You must live in the USA. In every other first world country with socialized medicine, there's a variety of free stuff for you to take advantage of.
"Who you choose to have sex with doesn't even merit a mention."
I dunno man. I'm not aware of any major political push to demonize and dehumanize people with spinal injuries like there is with highly religious zealots demonizing and dehumanizing gay people.
No it’s not the same, and it definitely depends on the community. First of all your potential partners are reduced to a tenth, second guys act a lot different than women, especially about other guys. In life, guys hit on women all the time who aren’t attracted to them. The result usually isn’t usually women getting mad or threatening to punch them, if they’re respectful about it.A lot of guys act a lot more stupid in general about guys being attracted to them that they’re not interested in, whereas women are used to that just being a fact of life, people will be attracted to you that you’re not interested in. Guys can act like it’s some crime or fighting words. Then there’s the fact that just a lot of religious people pretend it’s some cardinal sin and are ignorantly judgmental to the point they pretend what they do aren’t sins “the same way” as if all the other ways they don’t even follow their own religion don’t matter, it’s “the gays” that are going to hell.. There are completely anti-religious areas where a fundamentalist Christian may get more flock than a gay guy, but it’s simply not the same as being straight.
The title left me perturbed, especially after seeing the brilliant, respectful conversation. 👏 if only more discourse were this way.
This just shows that Dr. Peterson is not only a great psychologist but also a modern day philosopher. The way he breaks everything down to detail shows how much time he put into analyzing the specific topic and understands how many countless dimensions it can go, from years of experience, something which can't be bought but only earned through years of seeking wisdom. The host on the other hand was the fern from inbetween two ferns, he said absolutely nothing on this entire 11 minute long debate, just sat there 😄
Man, I wish I was educated enough to keep up. But I do love listening to them be respectful and actually listen to each other. Have 3 young beautiful girls and before I settled down I lived a wild life. But have never worried about anything but worry now about the world that they will grow up in.
Um...if you were educated and knowledgeable enough, you would of been worried about a heck of a lot throughout your whole life. Fearmongering has been a staple of both right and left politics for well over 50 years.
Stay strong and grounded.
You can just listen to it many times, like the rest of us, brother 😁
When I was young (70s/80s) I experienced Body Dysmorphic Disorder and depression. I was healthy, slim, athletic, attractive. I felt ugly and very self-conscious. If I had been of a wealthy family or if the National Health Service was catering to my beliefs about myself - I would be unrecognisable today. Various surgeries would have taken place, and I would surely hate myself for it. I would not be young again for any amount of money or incentive - especially in these times. I am so lucky to have been born in the 60's. Hope I pop my clogs before the world goes full r*tard.
Great comment, kids are under their parents supervision for a reason.
JP destroys nobody in this discussion.
This is the way it's done, no meltdowns, no name-calling.
The fact that he kept his name close to Ellen is interesting
Why throw out a perfectly good set of monogrammed towels?
*she *her
You mean she with no breasts and psychological problems.
Close.
The fact that she kept her fake name close to Ellen is telling.
@@harrydavey9884 Well said.
Libral friend constantly attacks Jordan..
And when Jordan explains.
The libral trows up.. you are attacking.
This is not a exploring the subject...
But sounds like a fight.
The libral dies not want to loose..
His self righteousness
You have a war with words so you don't have to have a war with swords.
Someone who gets 500 tattoos on their face doesn't demand you say they look lovely. They don't try to get the government to force you to say they look lovely. They don't obliterate their past and make you pretend there was ever a time when they didn't have 500 tattoos.
Very good to see Jordan in heated debate with a peer of sorts. More of this please. Bravo all.
They Redefined the freedom of speech. Thank you for this fruitful discussion
We are free to say what they tell us to say.
No, they didn't. Grow up sweetheart
The derivation of the word.....Insanity.
"Being out of agreement with reality"👍
Who decides what reality is though?
The majority who are surviving and adapted well. When they're all wrong usually it means a catastrophe.
@@jsogman
If you were born with male or female genitalia…….. that is reality.
Thinking or feeling that you are something else…… is being out of agreement 👍
@@rockpile451 yeah but im sure to that person its as real as any other thing in their life so who are we to say one way or the other if were not them?
@@jsogman
I would like to thank you for proving my point about "Insanity".
You could put on a tin foil hat, and think you are in communication with the Gamma Quadrant......it after all it is real to you.
But, the minute you try to force your opinion on society......and society clearly rejects your reality as "Insanity".
Society is saying, we do NOT have to support you morally or financially....which you think that we must do👍
Woman: “how can I be a better man”
You…cannot.
I haven't seen a good intellectual debate with two separate opposing parties, who were capable of respectful dialog in a depressingly long time. This all began to become so out of control, and polarizing in 2015. Since then no one has been allowed to question any popular ideology publicly without facing harsh consequences and backlash. Mostly because the side of the popular viewpoint is unable, and unwilling to be questioned, or disagreed with at any level. We have never in the history of the United States been in a situation where our entire ability to communicate with our fellow Americans has been suppressed at this level. Whether we like it or not, we have a relationship with each other. We share the same country, and our relationship as countrymen/women is something that cannot be ignored, and the act of communicating with each other is imperative to be successful! Just as any other relationship, without proper communication, you are dead in the water! We need many more people who are willing to discuss serious issues, and willing to be flexible, and open to hearing from each other. It is absolutely mandatory to move forward, and this division does absolute damage to the AVERAGE person, and it gives total control to the elites who are getting rich off the backs of the American citizens.
It's a she; how long do you think it will be before she decides she wants her beautiful breast back? How many people actually knew who she was before her "transformation"?
Optimus prime knew.
@@HANKHILLFORTXGOVERNOR, oh my, then I guess it's his fault for not advising her against it.
Such a respectful, amicable discussion. If only everyone spoke to each other this way when they don't agree on topics, you might actually get somewhere and solve problems.
Sounded pretty heated to me
I love how Jonathan Pageau is sitting there like, "how the hell did I get caught up in this" hahaha
That's what you get when you're friends with JBP
JP is bang on with the whole "we are enticing these young people".
Liberal friend here is hyper emotional and overly empathetic
So now you're overly empathetic if you care about people being happy huh
@@PlayerKV Yes, if it makes you emotionally incontinent
Hyper emotional and evil is my take. Personally, I'd like to see everyone who even thinks that this "trans" kid stuff should be in any way normalized impaled on pikes lining the highways.
@@muddywitch9016 had to google it lol, you're saying his liberal friend is emotionally unrestrained? That is some dumb shit. Ur just mad cuz his opinion is different than yours. Also thats the kind of dumb shit JP haters say when JP starts crying during interviews.
@@troymash8109 lmaooo you actually think this guy is evil 😂😂😂
what a threat to humanity this guy is
I mourned the death of Ellen Page, she is gone and it makes me sad.
Me too. She was fucking HOT.
Pageau's the TRUE hero here, and one which we'd all do well to emulate. He proves himself an intelligent, respectful person by not opening his bearded mouth just to spout some unasked-for opinions into a conversation between two OTHER people while he's sitting directly between them.
What I wouldn't give to see that skill more rampant.
I wish the internet was filled with more content like this - sensible arguments and a reasonable discussion. I wish both of these people were politicians. I would vote for either of them.
Oh my lord how has this not hit the main page already??? Jordan's remark at 6:49 is SO IMPORTANT!!! Like, yeas MAYBE your individual satisfaction takes a backseat to the greater good of society. Well yeah, isn't that the predicate of 95% of law? Like yes, I get personal fulfillment doing X illegal thing. Well jeeze Bob you can't just get self fulfillment by un@living your neighbors. Can't put up with that.
Great clip. Good responses.
Peterson wasn't preaching ANY of that during the COVID epidemic....I wonder why. His hypocrisy is really a bit much sometimes....as well as the gullibility of his 'followers'.
This. Indeed. It’s destabilizing society.
@@MichaelJames-lz7ni How? By pointing out that Canada's response to Covid was overblown and they shouldn't have screwed over the truckers and called them Nazis?
@@suckieduckie Canada's response to COVID was appropriate - the truckers, and the general public, had a responsibility to the greater-good of society versus individual satisfaction. Which is EXACTLY what Peterson just said. No person can control who they infect with COVID, and no one has a 'right' to infect others with a potentially-fatal virus. Not in Canada, not anywhere.
@@MichaelJames-lz7ni Does this logic that you don't have the right to infect others apply to any other virus? How severe does a virus need to be to reach the cut off point? Do we now need to lock down when it's flue season? When it became clear that Omikron was much more mild, was it useful for Canada to force people to be vaccinated or lose their job eventhough Covid numbers were down across the board? Was it useful for Canada to stay locked down while other western countries were opening up, eventhough Canada has a much less dense population?
I would love to see a conversation between Jordan and Elliot, I don't believe Elliot understood the true ramifications of what is going on the way Jordan does. I think they could work together to clean this mess up.
Page is a rather unintelligent person that lives in the Hollywood-bubble. I don't think a conversation could ever be had nor would she even be open to accept the fact that maybe some of her views need to be challenged.
@@GobiLux it’s cool that you know him personally.
@@stevebradley1683 I don't know Jordan Peterson personally, but I also don't know what that would matter.
@@GobiLux I think most of us are in the grand scheme of things, I'm sure they could find common ground though and really do a lot of good for this situation.
@@jw-fb1iq I don't know where the common ground would be.
She is screaming about perceived violence against trans people on national TV while Jordan Peterson is pointing out the dangers of compelled speech.
Never argue with someone who is coming from a place of ego; they lack the sagacity to accept the possibility that they may be wrong.
He talks about negotiating and yet there seems to be a fair amount of censorship on the issue. You can't really have a negotiation under those circumstances.
2 very, very smart people having a conversation, this is next level education, for those who which to hear it ofc
“We are surgically transforming children that we are no longer allowed to talk to.” In other words, carve them up and hope their are no negative consequences. 😳😡
It's extremely rare to find high quality debates on anything, in particular on this divisive subject. Regardless of your opinion on this matter, you have to appreciate the honesty and respect demonstrated here. More of this please!!!!!!!
JBP can breakdown a clinical/ social issue to the T so rationally and articulate that even I find that what he says makes a lot of sense. Halfway through this debate (intellectual shellacking I would call it) you could sense abdication from the other party. The mediator perfect 👍🏼 Mad props to him!!!
I don't think people know what the term "destroys" means on RUclips. This was a peaceful and great debate between two views.
It’s incredible and genuinely uplifting to see Jordan Peterson in a conversation with someone who respects him and seems to be near a similar intelligence level. Honestly it’s inspiring.
Oh and that is a click bait title, it’s pretty misleading
We need to talk about it for 5000 hours 😂 That’s the answer 😂
It’s child sacrifice
Truly one of the few videos that makes old me understand what’s going on in the world or these young kids nowadays and what re we really dealing with. Thanks for uploading
The smartest/wisest man in the room didn't say a word.
He compared getting a face tattoo to gender reassignment. In the US you must be at least 18 to get a tattoo. That’s the point! It’s about protecting kids from making life-long decisions before they’ve developed enough to make such decisions.
Amazing that a discussion, debate, or even an argument, has become "destructive". I thought it was the only way we learned? Challenge what you think you know.
the nervous dude doesn't let JP talk! omg
By definition, if something is LEGAL it's not CRIMINAL! Criminal has a legal definition. If Jordan thinks its IMMORAL, he should just call it immoral. And no Jordan, what the Nazis did to the Jews was not criminal, it was WRONG, and totally immoral, but since it was legal, by definition it wasn't criminal. What you mean to say is, not everything that's legal isn't immoral
Same notion applies when discussing schizophrenic patients.
Do we want to go along with their delusions believing there are people standing in the corner of their room with knives & noises telling them to off themselves? Are there voices in their head telling them that they are worthless & that they should believe them? Do we humor the idea that everyone is watching them at every second of every day?
Let’s encourage them to believe these delusions, let’s not get them help because what they believe to be real is real.. let’s ignore the likely chance of them killings themselves because it’s their truth.
See how crazy this gets when applied to actual mental disorders instead of children who have hormonal imbalances due to bad nutrition that start feeling the opposite sex & are preyed upon by the marxists in power wanting to destroy our culture?
This “issue” is here to cause confusion, division & destruction of our culture / country & it’s coming from a certain ideology.
Ngl, the first paragraph creeped me out a little. It felt like reading an excerpt from a psychological horror novel.
Exactly if we play into others misconeptions of reality we will all inevatibly fall into madness.
JP is such a blessing when it comes to looking at hard things