HDMI vs SDI vs Fiber vs NDI -- Which connection should I use for professional video production?
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- Опубликовано: 22 янв 2019
- Different video interconnects have different purposes. I'll go over the pros and cons of each.
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This has been invaluable. For one who is in the middle of setting up a multicam live stream for a church, I loved it.
Thank YOU for the video. It helped me get a better grasp on the options I have for my limited video connection needs.
This has need so informative, and educational to my needs. I love the pros and cons view, and explanations on each one. Thanks again.
Love this setup, and very informational. Definitely a great reference - thanks!
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That’s great information. Even though I’m just a simple RUclipsr, one never knows what the future holds. Thank you.
One sector that heavily uses the NDI method is streaming, e.g. via Twitch or RUclips. It allows for moving video between PCs without any expensive gear like an HDMI capture device. The only real requirement is GBE networking gear. Yes, it is not "professional video production" in the sense you are talking about, but it's still a viable option for those who stream.
In my case, I use it to offload my final switched video in OBS Studio to another PC also running OBS Studio for encoding and streaming to Twitch, RUclips, etc.
I also use it, as a VTuber who uses VTube Studio which can output NDI, to offload the video into OBS Studio so I don't show the controls over the stream like I end up doing by capturing it directly via the "game capture" source (permits alpha channel, like NDI, but unlike NDI, the program's interface shows through). Since this is done over a network connection, the potential of offloading the VTubing side onto a third machine also exists, network bandwidth permitting.
NDI is great when the streamer has another PC, but no resources to get an HDMI capture card. Also, my encoder/streamer machine is across the room from where I do my streams from, so that might eliminate HDMI from the start.
Also, a few notes about OBS Studio and Streamlabs OBS:
OBS Studio: Does not have out-of-the-box NDI support, but needs a plugin to allow for NDI streams in and out, allowing for two or more PCs to be involved in the production process.
Streamlabs OBS: Allows for NDI input, but its lack of plugin support does not allow for its output. You are therefore limited to bringing in NDI sources as input and it cannot BE one.
So, for streamers, NDI is a boon. However, knowing a bit about (albeit analog ) television production, I fully comprehend the idea that it's better to get gear that's better suited for professional video production.
I agree with you but I also use it for my 3 camera setup when we do live events. I use all blackmagic studio cameras and blackmagic switchers using $20 converts and it's AMAZING!! Easily hide cables I can control every aspect of the camera including zoom, focus, and everything. It also shows tally lights as well. Of course I don't go through a network it's all direct connects. thinking about doing a video about my setup!
Thanks a lot, I am a studio technique guy in Anadolu University/Turkiye, it is a really good learning process to watch your educational videos.
Thank you for talking in terms I understand! Just came from a video where I swear the guy was making up words, complete gibberish. You explain things in professional but also understandable terms, and I loved the pros/cons. I was thinking of going NDI but now I'm going to look at SDI again for my situation.
EXCELLENT comparison, thx a lot man.
Hello Doug, thanks for your videos here on RUclips. Very informative, high quality content!! I let my interns and younger employees watch your videos to learn the basics.
One remark, though. We also prefer SDI cables, but with the new series of fibre quality HDMI cables we had very good experiences in the last 2 years. The other concerns you mention here about HDMI (video format negotiation for example) are of course very important to know.. All the best
This was an excellent video, very well presented and easy to understand. I worked in a data center and although I do not think they did a lot of 'video' data transfer or processing, they used various types of fiber cable. Every so often we would get phone companies in and they had miles of fiber cables connecting one building to another building.
thank you very much for a very to the point informative video. Exactly what I was looking for.
Awesome video, thanks for the easy to digest information.
Wonderful video, really explains each and every aspects.
That is a very informative episode. Kudos!!
Thank you for a methodical approach a d coverage of the topic. Hoping NDI progresses. It seems like there are so many benefits to it.
But i think that you will lose the benefits of NDI due to the license costs. I've seen a guy buying them for some camera
Very useful evaluation and comparison. Aligns very accurately with my experiences in assembling a switched, 4 camera ( PTZ + SDI + HDMI) streaming system. Many issues have arisen in trying to do longer signal runs. PoE / NDI was the dream, but realizing that has turned into a bit of a nightmare. Defaulted to local camera power and SDI runs to HDMI converters for switching and monitors. Wish I'd found you and your videos earlier! Subscribed to your channel now!
Great staff you're offering. Keep it up. Am in Nairobi, Kenya, runs a Photo Video outfit, upgraded into live streaming and trying to run the ropes
Great, comprehensive and informative video. Thanks for the info.
Great explanation. Thank you!
Thank you for uploading this video, its very informative. Thanks a lot 👍👍❤
Really helpful and informative!
Very informative, thanks Doug
Really helpful, Thanks!
I really learned a lot! Thank you.
Great video Doug yet again. Thank you for the lessons. Theres a few of us who would LOVE you to do a video regarding the dark art of genlock!
I can certainly do a video talking about it. But I can't demonstrate it. I sold off all of that gear several years ago.
Brilliant Info.. Thanks
Thank you man.
good info bro, it help me a lot..thanks
Fibre, end of. Fibre cable is so cheap now and once you've invested in SDI or HDMI to Fibre converters ( we use Blackmagic), it's a solid as a rock. We tried NewTek NDI products and forever had problems, even on short links. Provided no one drives a forklift over your fibre cable, it is 100% day in day out.
Thx for your input! Appreciate it.
Well, now we have Fiber Optic HDMI cables. Don't know if we have Fiber Optic SDI cables.
Great video
thank you
Thanks very much!
One big advantage of NDI that I see is the ability to use an existing network to run signals. I work in a Science Museum where it would be great to get signals from all around the facility (which is quite large) without having to run new cables.
Yeah, I do understand that. Considering that most networks are limited to 1Gbps, I wouldn't dare run very many cameras that way.
vaow great video thank you!
Great detailed explanation. But bear in mind that video over IP is going to take over in the future. NDI is the "affordable" option, but there is SMPTE2110.
Likely someday all of our video will go over IP. For today, it's limited to the highest-end installations only. It's going to take a while for it to become affordable.
@@djp_video We have a Tricaster TC1 and working with NDI sources has been flawless. The flexibility is amazing. We use NDI-NX, which is 24Mbps for a HD-SDI equivalent signal. We have a 1GbE infrastructure network, and planning to upgrade to 10GbE in the future.
Very informative, one thing i need to correct is coper is not the same as optical cable coz optical fiber convert your data/video into light and send it through the cable at light speed which copper will not do
It's true that the signals over copper aren't quite at light speed, but it's pretty close.
Thanks!
Thank you!!!
I'd love to see an update regarding NDI. It has grown and improved big time over the past 2 years since this video was made.
More devices support it, and NDI-HX has become more popular, but the fundamental concepts haven't changed.
@@djp_video I think you missed the point about NDI. If you're wanting control and camera streams from remote locations, NDI is invaluable. Full NDI bandwidth at 125mbps HD can accumulate if only on a 1 gig line, whereas NDI HX is less than a quarter that. However, HX takes more latency for compression whereas Full NDI is much quicker. How you going to pull in 4 streams remotely from different locations using SDI, HDMI or fibre at the lowest possible latency? It would have been good if you had covered latency in equivalent setups and solutions for say SDI versus NDI.
@@driftwoodtv There are some workflows for which NDI works well... PTZ cameras, for example. But there are an awful lot where it's a bit of a square peg in a round hole.
NDI just wouldn't work for me at all, for example. My switcher doesn't support it (so far, only software-based switchers do, which come with their own set of issues), so I'd have to invest in a whole pile of NDI-to-SDI converters just to get the video into the switcher. Going fiber is a lot cheaper in that instance, and gives uncompressed video with zero extra latency. NDI also inherits the limitations of Ethernet -- no runs longer than 100 meters without converting to fiber anyway, so anyone needing to make long runs should just go with fiber anyway.
Professionals charging for their services, or anyone who cares about the quality of their video should avoid NDI HX. The compression is too aggressive and too much quality is lost.
Anyone doing IMAG should also avoid NDI because of the latency that comes with using equipment that uses NDI (not necessarily because of NDI itself).
So you're eliminating anyone who needs long signal runs, uses a hardware rather than software switcher, or needs to do IMAG. That's a pretty high percentage of those doing video production as a profession.
Since you go into so much detail on each one, are you going to produce a video that explains that there are multiple types of fiber and which one is most appropriate for this environment? BTW, very nice job explaining--especially like the pros/cons of each for full disclosure.
I released a video on fiber last week
@@djp_video fantastic, and apologies for not looking first!
I know this video is old as of now but fiber supported ndi sfp+ wires can do wonders!!! 100 gb network cards Easily can support it on the network switch
Doug,
Thank you for the video, question, where can buy a fiber cable, what type of the connector can use for video, what diameter (2.00mm or 3.00mm) what type of jacket, what type of converter do you use.
Thank you.
I've been getting most of my fiber from fs.com lately. And I use Blackmagic Design converters, which use single mode fiber (9/125um) with LC connectors (UPC). Pick whatever size of outer jacket you like; as long as it's single mode fiber with the right terminations it will work. I do recommend going with the armored cable, though, as it stands up to abuse better than the alternative.
Hi Doug, thanks for your videos. Question where do you get your crimping tool and connectors for the BNC cables. i get my cables here in LA Burbank i had 2 of the connectors came loose they reattached them, i had the third one come loose this weekend. Can you show how you make the cables? Thank you so much for your help.Found your video thanks again!
I don't remember where I got the crimper. It's a generic product, and I've had it for over 15 years. I'm sure I didn't spend more than $25. I've found that the biggest factor in getting a good quality crimp is matching connector to cable. Most of the time I use Belden 1505A with the Canare BCP-B4F connectors. That combination has never failed me.
Great Video Doug!
one question, how do you protect your Optical Fiber in outdoor events? do you rely only on the Armored cables or do you use mats to cover them...
thanks again
I’ll cover all cables (not just fiber) in any area where they might get stepped on whenever possible. There has been a few times where that hasn’t been possible, and I’ll just gaffe type them in place.
@@djp_video Yep, as a live event audio technician I can second that. All cable where people walk have to be taped or covered by mats. Not only for the cable but to prevent lawsuits if people trip over them and die or worse....live and tell :)
@@djp_video Even with mat or gaffe tape, do you use armored cable or normal?
In areas where people may be walking I always use armored. Other locations, like in my trailer or inside my fiber breakout box, just regular fiber cables.
Awesome video Doug! I haven’t seen a breakdown on the difference between fiber transceivers for video vs networking transceiver. If the wavelength and multi node vs. single mode is the same could we use a normal networking transceiver? I find it hard to believe that companies are designing and manufacturing these transceivers specifically for video when the cable is just transmitting pulses of light, regardless of the data travel long down the pipe. A 12g SDI optical transceiver is priced super high. Is this just marketing to video people who don’t have time to do the research and see that it’s just a relabeled white label product? Thanks!!
It isn't just marketing. They are actually different. Network SFPs *can* work for video, but I wouldn't trust them -- they don't handle long strings of identical or repeating data very well, so the first time you go to a screen of a solid color they could (and do) lose sync.
Wow this video is a god send. Thanks for this. I start working in stadiums so I need a long cable run. Can you please provide a link to the exact durable outdoor fiber cable I need and the right sdi to fiber converter ? 🙏🏾 thanks
Cables: www.fs.com/products/40384.html or www.fs.com/products/106589.html with LC UPC connectors, converter: djp.li/bmdof12g, 3G-SDI SFP: djp.li/bmdsfp3g
Hi Doug...I discovered this video and now I think I want to use fibre instead of coax to wire our church for streaming. We are planning three PTZ cameras. Two would have about a 300 ft run back to our "control room". Back thru the organ chamber into the basement...across a couple of rooms...pick up another cable from another camera...go outside...we will trench and conduit to the back of the building...up the wall three floors...into the control room. The more I think about it...the more fibre makes sense. Especially for the future...4K!! I was planning on the Blackmagic ATEM extreame switcher...but if we upgrade it will be the BM Studiopro4K. To me it make sense to spend about $3,000 more to be ready for what may be ahead. What do you think?
I picked up my first TK-76 in 1979...and worked in local news till 2008. Yeah...I am old. Kinda missed the digital takeover over the past dozen years and need a little assurance I am leading our church down the right road. Great, informative video by the way.
If you're having to go 300 feet and need reliability, fiber is really your only option.
Such a wonderful video! You really know you stuff inside out. Do you still feel the same about NDI with more cameras starting to use it? The convertors still start at around $500 like you mentioned, and I not sure if Blackmagic has adopted it as well.
More or less. I still don't believe that NDI makes a lot of sense with video switchers that don't natively support it. Optical fiber cables plus SDI converters still cost less than a single NDI-to-SDI converter and you get pure, clean, uncompressed video.
It's a bit of a different story if you're running a software-based switcher like vMix or a Tricaster (or even OBS). NDI cameras still add significantly to the cost in that case, but you don't have to add a converter at the receiving end. For computer-based sources, NDI is free to implement, so there are some potential advantages there.
At NAB a couple years ago I was talking to an engineer for a camera vendor and he let it slip that their cost to add NDI to their cameras was about $500. So basically any time you buy a camera that has NDI, that's the minimum of how much more you're paying to have that feature included, for what that's worth. In my opinion, NewTek (now Vizrt) way overcharges for NDI licenses.
In the long term, I believe ST 2110 might overshadow and overtake NDI, as it's more or less free to implement and doesn't come with the associated licensing hassles. And we pretty much already know that Blackmagic is going all-in with 2110. I expect at least a couple announcements to that effect later today.
@@djp_video Can I just say thank you for going in depth about this with me! Even with all my years of tech experience I’m still learning everyday. And this made things more clear for me. I like NDI for certain scenarios, and I was wondering if it is the future, or even the now. Thank you for sharing this. 👍🏽
Doug could you please do a video on your break out box. I would really like to no how it works. Is it a standard thing? Did you motify it. How does the fiber from the camera get turned around and get to the fiber line that runs to your MPU. And how does that network switch have so many different LAN’s? I know nothing about networking but I’m trying to learn so I can do some live streaming, I want to run two cameras down fiber and return two lines into the venue for playback to screens, projector, etc. and also be able to run internet for streaming up and down the fiber to side the venue. Any info you could share would be awesome, thanks in advance.
The breakout box isn't anything special. The fiber connections to/from the trailer are just looped over to the camera connections. But for the return video from the trailer I use an optical splitter to take one signal and send it to four cameras.
The switch handles multiple LANs through VLAN technology. Essentially any network packets coming into the switch are tagged with a VLAN ID, and that VLAN ID determines which other ports will transmit that packet. The traffic for multiple VLANs can be sent over a single cable by retaining the VLAN Tag. For example, my main LAN for my trailer is VLAN 11, audio is 61, and venue Internet is 101. So if you were to look at the network traffic going between my breakout box's switch and the trailer you'd see packets from these three (and other) VLANs all mixed together. The network switch in the trailer then separates those back out into their individual VLANs again, and are directed to the appropriate ports. See djp.li/trailernetwork for a little more info.
Hi Doug, great video, since fiber signal is considered a future proof option why is it still limited to 4:2:2 video? Why not support 4:4:4? I'm sure it's not a bandwidth limitation like with SDI.
SDI can support 4:4:4 but it isn't common. And the fiber signals are really just SDI signals being sent optically instead of electrically.
Few thoughts on NDI - I don't think proprietary is the right word. My understanding is that is royalty free meaning anyone can implement it and not have to even pay like most standards. As a result things like VLC, FFMPEG, Wirecast, OBS. even Ross XPression have NDI support. I don't think it is perfect by a long shot but the potential is huge and 10gbit networking is a long way off for IEEE 20XX standards.
I use the bidirectional data with my graphics system control and tally. I am able to send commands to my graphics software to tell it to animate particular graphics on or off as needed. This all goes over the NDI protocol. Same for triggering playback on a video server etc. vs using GPI. I imagine someone with your skill set on programming could do some pretty amazing things with it.
Panisonic recently released the AG-CX350 with NDI-HX among other streaming protocols in it. I wish it was full NDI vs the HX flavor but its cool to see more than PTZs using the protocol.
The last thing is that NDI has the ability (and should be implemented as such to do a preview stream at a much reduced bitrate for when the camera is not used on program. The result is few mbits of data on your network until one or more of the streams goto full quality NDI. The birdog converts utilize this setup. Again though its up to the receiving side to switch back and forth. Due to the low latency I am able to do hard cuts where only the high quality goes onto program without delaying the cut in a perceivable fashion which is pretty crazy.
I am still curious about the Genlock situation and have been working with them to better understand what options there are going forward. Again, NDI is not perfect but it has certainly opened up a lot of cool options.
Thanks for your thoughts...
Genlock is going to be basically impossible with any compressed video format due to the inherent delay. The way that video compression works requires that a certain number of lines of data be received before any processing can start to happen. Then there's the packetized nature of Ethernet, which adds some additional delay of its own.
Hello... I'm a software engineer with plenty of network engineering experience. I'd like to clear up a few things for future readers since you've been so nice as to freely share such a wealth of production information I may as well do the same.
Regarding networking saturation, you can actually achieve and maintain 90-95% efficiency on an Ethernet network just fine with the correct equipment, but you need rack mount professional switches to ensure the reliability needed for anything mission critical. A supergear stealth fighter spider hawk 9001 isn't a great choice, you need something commercial grade not consumer grade.
If data is encapsulated via UDP rather than TCP (I do not know which NDI uses, I would certainly hope they chose UDP but they must use one or the other for it to be compatible with layer 3 network equipment), then the inherent delay caused by creating packets should not be an issue. Even with TCP, on a local network of long runs it's typicaly going to be around 3ms to establish a new 3 way handshake, well below the 33ms of a single frame of video. There are other benefits to UDP though, the major one being that lost packets aren't re-broadcast, a feature that makes sense for file streams with buffers but for real time data a lost packet can't be stitched back in later, the video will already have been impacted and there is no do-over.
A properly switched network can get 100% utilization from any port to any other port. The catch is that if you have multiple streams going to a single port. This is achieved by actually connecting the two ethernet lines directly when data flows between them - this is why it's called a switch. Commercial switches will typically have a much faster uplink port for this reason - for example connecting multiple switches to one another. This ensures that 10-20 devices can be connected at full speed between the two switches before any degradation occurs. A cleverly designed NDI switcher could use the uplink port of a switch negating the concerns of link saturation. The link is only saturated where the switch connects to the device receiving the signal. Another clever way to handle would be with link aggregation/link teaming, where you would create multiple network connections to the switch to distribute the load.
Regarding compression, you're absolutely right that a certain amount of delay and artifacting will be present when compressing. There is no way around this as you say - short of using a much less powerful compression technique that does not use key frames, but compresses one frame at a time with no context as to how the image flows from frame to frame, and this is where the largest gains occur with video compression (for example, 2 frames of a still image would be nearly exactly the same size as a single frame of that static image when compressed properly - using this technique, the image not moving would not have any impact to size from one frame to the next, 2 frames would be double the data of a single frame of that static image).
I'm not specialized in the fields of Genlock and NDI - but I can state that the delays in ethernet can be at a minimum synchronized to the longest delay of the line which should be achievable to around 3ms. That synchronization method could result in a Genlock equivalent with the right engineering moves. Keep in mind doing it this way would not do anything for reducing or removing the delay caused by compressing/encoding video data.
@@Kamel419 I might suggest you download the SDK for NDI so you can get a better understanding of how it functions and how it achieves things.
@@JoshC. i didn't know such a thing existed... thanks for the heads up. i might play with it sometime, but more than likely will end up on the pile of "maybe one day..." things lol.
Okay just checking here. I was under the impression that NDI-HX is compressed and NDI is not? Am I incorrect there?
With NDI, you really need a switch that supports IGMP snooping, which is typically only managed switches. That basically means the switch is smart enough to only send the NDI signals to the ports needed, instead of broadcasting them to all ports. With this feature, your switch can handle many more NDI signals than the maximum of a single port. Most switches like that will also have a few 10G uplink ports, which can be used to take all those streams into a single switcher.
Understood. And personally I've known about that pretty much all along. It works similarly to other real-time AV protocols in those ways. For the scope of this video, I didn't really want to take deep dives into what it takes to optimize a network connection like NDI. For the most part, if viewers are watching an "introductory level" video like this one, asking them to setup a managed switch with IGMP might be a little bit of a stretch, and is certainly beyond the scope of this particular conversation.
Many computers don't have 10 Gbe connections, particularly those which aren't explicitly built for acting as a video switcher.
The direction that things have been heading with NDI since this video was released is for more and more NDI devices to use flavors of HX, which means visual quality loss and latency, things which are not desirable for live video production. Which makes investing in NDI for many viewers of my channel less interesting and practical. For someone shooting a live stream from home, yeah NDI HX is likely just fine. For viewers of my channel in particular, where a huge percentage are out there either getting started or are already trying to run a business selling live production services, and there's any kind of chance that they'll be asked to provide closed-circuit video whether that be to projectors in an IMAG situation or televisions throughout a facility, those issues can be deal breakers.
@@djp_video yeah, I am not a huge fan of NDI HX. I run a pretty low-budget stream and use HX because it allows me to use a basic cell phone as a cheap audience camera, works even over WiFi, but for anything where you need the best quality or ability the lip-sync, it doesn’t work. Overall, I like the flexibility of NDI for use in an office, allowing the existing network to transmit video, but it’s in a weird place of feeling like the cheap option, but gets expensive quickly.
Hallo Doug
Thanks for all your Videos, graet information you gif. Do you have a Video you explain Replay or Slowmotion devices? Do you have one in your Trailer installed? If yes, witch slowmotion control panel you use? Do you know about a recording device for capture 120fps an play it back instantly (for example in IceHockey games). Thank you. Regards from Switzerland - Europe.
I haven’t really covered that much on the channel, because I don’t use them much. In my trailer I purchased some hardware to let me do replay, but I haven’t finished the software for it yet as I haven’t needed it.
wow,wow,wow thank God i found this video and i have the opportunity to ask questions. please i use a black magic 4k atem studio and i use a panasonic AGHPX255P how do i connect all this to a monitor using rg59 75 ohm cable. many thanks
The camera already has an HD-SDI output, so all you'll need is a monitor with an HD-SDI input, or an SDI-to-HDMI converter (djp.li/bmdms2h). If the distances are relatively short you can get away with hardware store-type cable, but if you're approaching anywhere near 100M you'll probably want a higher quality cable, like something based on Belden 1694A.
As usual a great and thorough technical comparison. Much appreciated. It did raise a question with regard to the 4:2::2 “limitation” of SDI vs. 4:4:4 of HDMI. We send camera 12bit RAW to our recorders via SDI and then scaled 1080p 10bit 2:2:2 from the recorders to our switch via SDI. I’m not sure I’ve met a camera that outputs 4:4:4. We have used ProRes 4444 for video with alpha channels and have always had to use 2x SDI cables - one for the video and one for the alpha channel. I’ve not found a solution for doing the same over a single HDMI. So my question is... what’s the practice downside of not having 4:4:4 over SDI?
In most cases you won't see the difference between the two. For chroma keying, or in extreme cases where you have drastic shifts in color between adjacent pixels you'll lose some color information, but other than that the two will be hard to distinguish from one another.
Doug Johnson Productions Thanks Doug. Greatly appreciate the fast reply!
Yes sdi is capable of 4:4:4 but it's uncommon in a typical SMPTE device. This is the reason I opted for an HDMI capture device in the field over sdi, because any device I wanted to convert to sdi was going to get converted to 4:2:2 when hitting my switcher or most of my mini convertor boxes. The HDMI capture made it simpler and cheaper to get 18ghz input where I needed it and converting from sdi 4:2:2 to HDMI was way less of a headache to maintain quality.
Optical fibers can also be used in computer networking, so it can be used in NDI. However, you missed out HDBaseT, and HDBaseT over IP (uses computer networks like NDI).
I did mention that NDI can be sent over fiber.
I didn't specifically call out HDBaseT, but I did mention video over IP.
we prefer NDI cause with poe we got power, video signal and control over one cable. Super fast setup by sport events.
When you have a switcher that supports NDI it makes a lot of sense. Otherwise it usually doesn't.
During a live concert multi-cam shoot, I was operating a hand-held camera moving across the front of the theatre to get several angles. In the middle of the show, the director kept informing me on my headset that my signal kept cutting out and asked what was going on, I unplugged the cable from my camera and plugged it back in again; that seemed to fix it, but the same problem happened again but that didn't fix it the second time. By the time the show was over, we inspected the cable lines and found that the other end of my HDMI cable had slipped out of one of the adapters that lead to the switcher. That cable didn't even have a chance at staying inside of the port, it would just fall out. HDMI sucks for hand-held.
HDMI sucks all of the time
I’m new to this side of the industry. When you said saturate the Netwerk. What network are you referring to?
NDI. It produces a lot of data. 6-7 HD video signals will saturate a gigabit network.
Reason I use fiber optics hdmi
So is Balun over cat6 NDI? you say the converters are expensive but I have Gofranco ($88) pushing 4k video over 150 feet and it works fine. Is this destined to fail?
NDI is an IP-based protocol, so it uses an Ethernet network to transmit the signal. Baluns are passive devices that operate in the analog space.
Does ndi need internet acces to get cameras or feed or just simple with the cable connections and router setup. I mean if I lan my sources does it still work. Thanks
NDI doesn't require Internet access. Just a simple LAN without Internet will work. You can use a router to provide IP addresses for your devices and leave the WAN side disconnected from the Internet if you'd like and it will work just fine.
What would you use to run 2 NDI signals over 1 Ethernet cable? And how would you get the hdmi to Ethernet and back to Ethernet? I’m looking to get an hdmi program out from an atem mini pro to a mother room in the building .
You can safely run more than 2 NDI signals over a gigabit ethernet connection.
You'd need HDMI to NDI encoders and decoders at each end. One pair for each signal. Here are a few options: www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/hdmi-to-ndi-encoders/ci/47370
Hey. One other downside to HDMI is that the ends are more susceptable to dust. If you get something like (drywall) plaster dust in there, they stop working! (Ask me how I know... No don't). Could you do a video on optical HDMI please?
LOL.
Yes, I'll do a video on optical HDMI, as well as other alternatives.
At my church we ran 50ft HDMI to Fiber cable, the only caveat being is that one end is input, and the other end is output. I know you know this though, this is just for others. We have zero problems running 4k 60p back to the computer...BUT...the HDMI to Fiber cables are more expensive.
Fiber HDMI cables can be helpful.
Since the ATEM Minis don't support 4K, the signal traveling over you cable is actually 1080p.
@@djp_video yes indeed…I misspoke. I can run the signal back to my MacBook Pro at 4k 60p over about 50ft of that cable, and is is crystal Clear. But yes, my Atem Mini Extreme ISO when running through there only does 1080p. I oft wonder if they will ever come out with a 4k version of the Atem Mini, but maybe they do not want to cannibalize their higher end offerings? Idk. Also, had Vmix or Facebook freak out today outputting nothing but color bars to Facebook, but audio came through. Checked Vmix settings and they are all set properly. I changed nothing from the previous week when it was working as it always has. I ran the cams through my Atem, then usb out to my MBP running parallels, but even local images and video that rested in my VMIX show only showed on Facebook as color bars like a DSK. My internet is 900Mbps tested. What is weird is it is obviously downstream. I checked forums, and nothing suggested was the problem. Then tested and restested and cannot reproduce the problem that ruined this week’s show for church. It is working fine now like there never was a problem…so perplexed…
The only way I ever broadcast in 4k is with 1 cam straight into my computer on RUclips as FB does not support 4k live, and of course the Mini does not...so yes, I mis-spoke with the ATEM Mini Extreme, corrected my comment above, and knew it is 1080p only. I meant my computer and must have had the ATEM stuck in my head when I typed it. Looking forward to the day they release an ATEM Mini that is 4k capable, but suspect for now they are trying not to cannibalize their higher end offerings...
I heard through the grapevine that the person who originally designed HDMI created it with only a tolerance or 10 plugs and unplugs in its lifetime. I’m sure it’s improved since then, but it’s probably why most professionals stay away from it. That and the locking cable is awesome.
Do you have links to the fiber converters you use?
Here's a list of the fiber-related products I'm using:
djp.li/Cat=Fiber
Hey Doug, how has this aged? Would you still recommend Fibre going into 2022?
If you need long signal runs, absolutely yes.
Thank you Doug.
What do you think about NDI using cat8 cables though?
Did you mean Cat 5? Real Cat 5 won't technically work with Gigabit Ethernet, which makes them next to useless for NDI.
Doug Johnson Productions thank you for your reply. However, please search for Cat8 40gbps cables. They are new and being sold by infinity-cable-products.com
Cool. I assumed it was a typo.
For what I bet Cat8 costs, I'd be that fiber is a lot cheaper, and can be run a lot farther. Apparently at full bandwidth of 2000MHz, Cat 8 is limited to 30m. That isn't very far. Fiber, on the other hand, is rated in kilometers, and fully assembled cables can be had for well under $1 per meter while providing at least as much bandwidth.
@@djp_video Makes much more sense now! Thank you Doug!
@@AbodyRulez Yeah, I can confirm from a production I worked on, NDI will run over fiber based networking just fine, and 10gig ethernet is getting a lot cheaper, and 25, 40 and even 100gig is now on the market, if you really need a lot of streams. :D
I have installed NDI plug ins on my computer and bought and app for my phone, but they are not communicating:( I am not sure if NDI actually works, or it is just a big fuss about nothing
What about hdmi cables made with optical fibers? I have to connect 6 projectors (about 50 meters of distance) to a computer (individual signal on each projector) and i was thinking to use them with 2 multihdmi port graphic cards (rtx 3060). Please let me know. Thanks a lot for the precious info
They can work well. They tend to be somewhat delicate, so if you're using them in areas with foot traffic you might want to find ways to protect them.
@@djp_video fortunatelly they are mounted in a rectangle made by truss. Thanks again
I want to use my Dad’s JVC GY HM700 to livestream my band. Is that doable in today’s HD-HDMI environment? SDI out
i want to run 1080p for 40m can you suggest model of belden cable!!
1505F if you need something light and flexible, 1694F if you need something more rugged.
do i have to down grade my atem to 1080 b4 my atem sees my signal?
The signal from your camera has to match the resolution and frame rate of your ATEM before it will be seen by the switcher.
I have different cameras one is a Sony xf300 and the others are ptzoptics 30x NDI cams. The delay I put on the Sony is not allowing audio to sync with the ptzoptics cameras. Can you help? Ok
If your cameras don't have the same output delay it's going to be really hard to get them in sync.
Thank you!
What do you recommend to use for a room of 100'/65' (we have a Gigabit Ethernet Switch) ? Thank You
What are you connecting?
@@djp_video Sorry .. it's PTZOptics cameras
Are you going to utilize NDI? Any decent quality CAT 5e/6 cable will work.
@@djp_video I didn't made up my mind yet on what to use ! professionals like you helps us a lot to decide .. So if I go with NDI I should not have problems with latency ? I mean on my case 100/65 foot space !
The latency with NDI should be less than 1 frame, so it generally wouldn't be visible.
Long cables don't affect latency in any meaningful way. Electrical signals move at a sizable fraction of the speed of light.
Well you forgot opticalCON DUO. Yeah I know you sort of covered Fiber but mainly LC, no those studio put ups with real SMPTE Fiber connections so you can get power and all video/coms back and forth. I also think you really need to consider that not everything revolves around blackmagic. And NDI even a year ago had over 450 manufacturers adopting the technology and the SDK is free. 1Frame latency is completely fine even without genlock and with Bird-Dog, Kiloview and others exploiting NDI with FULL CHIP Based NDI, that is seriously becoming a great thing. Especially when your talking about a live event that is only streaming and recording. IMAG is a whole other thing and everything in the chain is subject to delay so, no NDI wouldn't be a good thing there. But he certainly has way more advantages then you are giving it credit for.
Most of the fiber variants are SMTPE compatible, which I believe I mentioned.
i tryed to use the Promo Plan... i get the message "please select a plan" ;-) right after clicking PLACE ORDER ... small bug there to fix .. kind regards ;-)
Should be fixed now. Thanks for the heads up!
thaks @@djp_video i will try the system and if you want i will give a feedback in some time.
if you ever think of doing multiple languages on the page contact me for german... ;-)
@@BoguschMedia I'll respond with this... ruclips.net/video/0j74jcxSunY/видео.html
Is HDMI over Cat5 viable for live streaming?
Viable? Probably. The ideal solution? maybe not. If it was me, I'd convert to SDI.
@@djp_video thanks.
Good Video,but HDMI is not a reliable media.it's very sensitive connection which is never ready for hard use.
Yeah, I made that point in the video. But there are some times when we can't avoid it.
NDI is a protocol not a cable. NDI can be sent across any of the cables presented with the exception of the hdmi cable.
Understood. But users don’t really think of it that way
Good Basic. But hdmi only 8 Meters is untrue. Without los and a good cable you can do it up to 25m, nearly 70 feets. HDMI has a buggy plug. That's the moste problem.
The distance you can get out of HDMI varies really wildly, depending on the pieces of equipment being used and the quality of the cable. My point is that as a general rule is that you can’t count on HDMI working past about 8 meters. I’ve seen plenty of situations where HDMI is unreliable at just 2 meters.
lots of cat 6 in video pannels
25:13 - I don't agree with that. You can have 1 Gbps connections to each camera and then, for example, when you're using software switcher like vMIX or another, you can have 10 Gbps connection from switch to PC - which is pretty expensive. The alternative to this is usage of LACP (link aggregation) - when you can use for example 4x 1Gbps cables from switch to PC and makes 4 Gbps connection.
The next advantage of NDI is, that it is very universal. For example vMix supports 4 NDI outputs (for now), so I can choose what I send to the network and then I can... for example put laptop with main feed on the stage to show DJ current program.. Or I can send program video signal to the VJ guys (or to monitors, projectors in different room, ...).. And when I decide to use NDI in multicast mode, everyone can connect to all NDI sources.
This means that I can connect 1 camera to the network and feed from that camera I can use in (e.g.) 5 swtichers. Multicast means, that camera sends only.1 feed to the switch and then switch distribute video signal to clients who requested that feed (be aware of using switch that supports ICMP Snooping, otherwise you can flood your network because swtich will not be able to check who requested the video signal - so it sends it to all ports :D).
Yeah, NDI is expensive mainly in case of converters but I choose to start with it because even now I used it in a lot of situations where I would need a lot of other gear to reach the same result.
Also worth adding that NDI scales the resolution as needed, i.e. a preview doesn't have to be full bandwidth, where program out does.
HDMI runs up to 50ft without a DA
It depends on the cable and connected equipment. Getting 50 feet consistently reliable is very difficult. I’ve even seen 10 foot cable runs be unreliable
@@djp_video I'm running from a laptop or Decimator to a monitor/projector and 50ft is no problem.
Consider yourself lucky. Most people don't get reliable results at that distance.
I think there’s a heavy licensing fee for NDI if manufacturers want to use it
Nope - it's royalty free. That's the only way open source projects like Open Broadcast Studio can afford to use it :)
Fix the popping sound please.
What popping sound is that?
Turns out it was my phone speaker doing it when I maxed the volume. Very informative video thanks for this!