Time Stamp Video Map: 0:00 - Intro & Overview 1. 3:00 What egalitarians claims about women leaders 2. 7:18 Was Nympha an overseer? 3. 13:47 Were homeowners overseers? 4. 26:22 Were Euodia and Syntyche leaders? 5. 33:20 What about Priscilla? 6. 59:03 What is an overseer, elder, bishop or pastor? 7. 1:00:58 Were women “elders”? 8. 1:15:16 Were letter carriers approved teachers? 9. 1:23:36 Col. 3: 16 and women teaching 10. 1:26:24 Paranoid masculinity 11. 1:29:24 What exactly is a deacon? 12. 1:36:04 Was Phoebe a deacon? 13. 1:41:04 Egalitarian overreach on deacons. 14. 1:53:16 1 Tim. 3, deacons’ wives or deaconesses?
@mike winger I noticed around 40mins you mentioned you would talk about the "unlearned women in Ephesus" argument, but I am hoping that you have also come across the other view, that women in Ephesus were actually highly educated even above men which is why there was correction. This has to do with the Cultural significance of the Artemis Cult in Ephesus, the same city where Timothy was Pastor. This Artemis belief system reverses the Genesis narrative and says that woman was created before man and is above man. Therefore Women were primary teachers and leaders in that cult... Hence the reason in 1 Tim 2 Paul had to correct the way women dressed and the doctrine that was creeping into the church through their teaching, and specifically wrote that women "should not teach as to USURP authority" ...many complimentarians translate that as "have Authority" which is very general and misleading...but that is not the Greek wording here, it is literally Usurp, or take by force, because that is what the women converts were used to doing over men. He then goes on to set in place and remind specifically of the order of creation by God, and remind them that they are saved because of child birth; meaning Jesus himself as foretold in Genesis. You see, the cult was taught that death in childbirth was a judgement for sins against Artemis, so the women converts to Timothy's church would have been worried about this. You could absolutely mark this off as conjecture....that's fine. but I think it has deep rooted cultural merit that cannot be ignored. I think we always have to remember that these letter were written to address questions and issues... it wasn't just random insight God gave him that he decided to share with the church. I love what you are doing here btw!! we need this deep bible exegesis all around!!
Anyone else blown away that Pastor Mike pretty much does an exhaustive research presentation like every week or two?? My husband and I are so grateful for this series and everything you do to help us all think more biblically about everything. We are praying for you!!
Pastor Mike, you can zero in on inconsistencies like any fine apologist and expose them. You ferret out false conclusions in so-called scholarship. I have felt weak in this area, but you have sharpened my biblical whit and spiritual discernment by much attention to your teaching. I aspired always to apply the sword of the Spirit that exposes the truth of a matter-separates between the bone and marrow, truth and half truth, etc. My problem was that I let too many spiritual ‘opinions’ slide by me without applying discernment. You are teaching me daily by example. Thanks for putting in the many hours of study that sharpen us all.
I’m pretty sure he’s prepared and looked into this in dearth for months he’s just been finishing particular issues and writing out the full scrips in the week/s leading up to the video
Heard someone share this : 2 Timothy 2:12 says “I don’t allow a woman to teach a man”. The king James wrongly translates it in the plural. I don’t allow WOMEN to teach in the church. Wrong. Doesn’t say that. It says I don’t allow A woman to teach a man. The next verse is about Adam and Eve and the marriage relationship. Some translations say I don’t allow a woman to disciple her husband. It’s talk at minimum about one single lady not being able to disciple a single man. That is just wisdom. But more than likely contextually speaking of a marriage relationship and how husbands should not be taught by their wives. The other is in 1 Cor. 14. It tells woman in the plural to stay silent. But the next verses again gives context. It says wait till you get home to ask your husband Questions. You are interrupting the service. Women still sit on one side and men on the other. Woman were never allowed into the synagogue and didn’t know how to act in church. They were interrupting asking questions of their husbands. Paul said be quiet and do that later. The subject is not woman preaching. How do we know? To many verses that say opposite. Sons and Daughters shall prophesy! Phoebe in Romans 14:2 is called a deacon. Janus is a feminine name and is called “great among the apostles” Paul was discipled by a woman and her husband. Her name was listed first and in Greek it means she was more prominent. The gospel was first entrusted to a woman before it was entrusted to the disciples. And there was a church in a woman’s house in second John, an entire book of the Bible is written to how to manage the church that’s in her house. Slam dunk.
Pastor Mike at the end: ‘I hope this is a blessing to you’ I’ve been a Christian for 25 years and I study the Scriptures daily but the INCREDIBLE amount of work you put into these teachings puts me on warp speed to learn complex topics. You’re helping us dude…a lot. Say thanks to the better half and the 🐈 s for letting us borrow you brain.
Hey Mike, I'm a pastor on the other side of the world in South Africa. This has been a really big issue for our church and we spent 2 years discussing this as elders in consultation with some interested members in our church. It has been a hugely divisive issue for us, and remains a sensitive one... But I have found your analysis so helpful. It has been deep, insightful and thoroughly biblical and I have loved it so much. Thank you so much for the amount of energy and effort you put into producing (and researching) this. I appreciate it more than I can say!
Thank you for doing this study!!! It’s extremely helpful. I think about the many many hours you spent on this and I’m so grateful to have someone that can devote themselves to this. Having toddlers, I think about how long this study would take me if I just used the small amount of free time I have in a day. Being able to listen to your study while I go about doing dishes and laundry is helping me grow spiritually in a difficult time of life. Thank you.
^ I second EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THIS! This study is helping me so much as I go about tasks with my kiddos. Thank you so very much for all the faithful study you have put into this.
Mike, my 19 year old son shared your videos with us and we now are listening to you as a family. I very very much appreciate the exhaustive and objective research you have done on this topic. It truly has and continues to be a blessing to our family. Thank you for your faithful service to our Lord and know your gifts are being greatly used in the kingdom. Thank YOU!
This series is a huge blessing and help to me. I am a woman with teaching gifts who wants to serve the Lord in accordance with Scripture. I have always leaned complimentarian but want to be able to exercise my gifts to the fullest permissible extent. Soooo appreciate the deep dive. Thank you!!>
You asked if this is helpful - Yes! Immensely. I am an elder that inherited a lot of extra responsibility after our lead pastor left the church to be run by the elders. This question of what role exactly should Women have in ministry has come up multiple times, so this is an invaluable resource. So very helpful and on-point to what I have been seeking, I feel like this series was almost made exclusively for me. Keep up the good work and thank you.
Bro. Winger, you need to put these large, amazing series of yours in book form! These videos are so informative and it'd definitely be helpful for ministers and laymen for acquiring biblical understandings of various topics. Books are really cool too (:
THANK YOU! For throwing yourself on the grenade of this topic in order to save the Church from the shrapnel it creates in the Body of Christ! I am not alone in my appreciation for all the work and time necessary for a thorough, balanced, BIBLICAL teaching. God bless you, Pastor Mike!!! 🙏🏼✝️
Thank you for this. When I was born again I “felt” God called me to minister but that doesn’t mean He wanted me to be a pastor. God actually showed me that men has spiritual authority that no woman can replace and that authority is important for protecting the “flock”. Many of my friends and my husband’s “Christian” family push back on me about this but after God working on my heart for 10 years I cannot in good conscious willingly pastor over men as a woman. And it saddens me to know many churches are not upholding the Bible as the ultimate authority over their church because they want to be seen as “nice, open minded, progressive, etc.” which causes many to fall away and hurt the children growing up in the church.
Satan knows exactly what he is doing. When we doubt and try to twist scripture to suit our needs, he takes an inch at a time. I'm sure you are a lovely Christian who ministers where God has put you.
Then Joni Eareckson, Corrie Ten Boom, Lottie Moon and Sojourner Truth were/are ALL WRONG and going against God because they had or do have ministires of preaching, teaching, sharing the gospel with men apart from a male authority in their lives. They are all highly revered and held in high esteem in the Christian world.
All I can say is thank you!!! As a female growing up in the church I feel like I’ve been left on my own to sort it all out. Leaders have no trouble telling me what I can or can’t do, but as soon as you ask for the Bible verse or clarification they just hand you some random book. I too have been overly frustrated with peoples random interpretations. Sorting through reasonably ideas, and the crazy. I spent a lot of time studying myself. It’s been super fun watching. You’ve brought out things I’ve missed, as well as tied a few loose ends that I didn’t know what to do with.
@@Jaxmusicgal23 i highly suggest both of you check out the writings of Marg Mowzcko and Sheila Rae Grogoire (bare marriage podcasts) --very eye opening about women;s roles
In the end depend on the Word and The Holy Spirit....does it REALLY take endless research to accept that an Omnipotent God who created the Heavens and the earth finds it difficult to communicate to His children, of ALL cultures and times....He communicates pretty clearly....."You can eat the fruit of every tree EXCEPT...". Same with the role of women....we can do anything and everything in the church EXCEPT have the authority of the elder/pastor (not that it has much these days, people come with itching ears and if its not entertaining enough they find another one), then along comes the whisperer "did God REALLY say....". I would sincerely LOVE to read/hear an in-depth study of what women ARE called to do....teach the women and children...but it seems women themselves see that as somehow less worthy than replacing men in the pulpit. "Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the PRIDE of life". If we are servants of Christ why are we so afraid to serve in the way He prescribes?
Thank you for calling out the fact that women need women in church leadership. Even if we don’t call them pastors or elders - deacons, official Biblical counselors or leaders are needed roles. Fully see the complementarian view in scripture, and also this practical application of study of scripture and the heart of the word.
We are absolutely LOVING this series - over in England!! Ever since you mentioned over the past couple of years that you were going to do this, I have kept checking to see if it had been done. Thrilled to bits to have it now!!! I eagerly await each week (keep checking) for the next one in the series to come on here! Fantastic stuff. We find you easy to trust because you are so thorough, Mike. We love the detail, ‘leaving no stone unturned’. Love that they are such long videos! Can’t thank you enough for the time, integrity and fear of the Lord that you have in doing this. Wow…
Hey Mike! I am incredibly grateful for all this work. I recently went through a break up with a woman who is a Deacon and works closely with a female head-minister. In my love for her I was unquestionably egalitarian but after she treated me rather unfairly it was very tempting for me to become extreme complimentarian in my anger. But this video series appeared at the perfect time and I am now so able to come to the scriptures to seek God's conclusion on this very difficult and personal topic. I have therefore been able to surrender all my feelings to God with so much ease and I am so very thankful that God has done this by working through you. I am greatly at peace. You are an inspiration and a treasured gift in the body of Christ! Enjoy the conference!
I got saved in a church culture that women and men had equal roles. It was a Baptist church. As I studied the Bible I became convicted that this both preacher role wasn't biblical. I asked the women leaders about this. I wind up leaving and going to a Calvary Chapel. After moving I went to a Baptist church with complementary roles. My culture was the equality thing. Only the Bible led me away from that not influence.
Heard someone share this : 2 Timothy 2:12 says “I don’t allow a woman to teach a man”. The king James wrongly translates it in the plural. I don’t allow WOMEN to teach in the church. Wrong. Doesn’t say that. It says I don’t allow A woman to teach a man. The next verse is about Adam and Eve and the marriage relationship. Some translations say I don’t allow a woman to disciple her husband. It’s talk at minimum about one single lady not being able to disciple a single man. That is just wisdom. But more than likely contextually speaking of a marriage relationship and how husbands should not be taught by their wives. The other is in 1 Cor. 14. It tells woman in the plural to stay silent. But the next verses again gives context. It says wait till you get home to ask your husband Questions. You are interrupting the service. Women still sit on one side and men on the other. Woman were never allowed into the synagogue and didn’t know how to act in church. They were interrupting asking questions of their husbands. Paul said be quiet and do that later. The subject is not woman preaching. How do we know? To many verses that say opposite. Sons and Daughters shall prophesy! Phoebe in Romans 14:2 is called a deacon. Janus is a feminine name and is called “great among the apostles” Paul was discipled by a woman and her husband. Her name was listed first and in Greek it means she was more prominent. The gospel was first entrusted to a woman before it was entrusted to the disciples. And there was a church in a woman’s house in second John, an entire book of the Bible is written to how to manage the church that’s in her house. Slam dunk.
"What's up guys, I'm Mike Winger, and this is my 4th attempt to get hit in the face by a feminist when I go shopping." Just kidding, I really appreciate your determination to honor God and to show grace as much as possible in everything you do, not to mention your commitment to exhaustive research! Like you, I was kind of hoping to be convinced of egalitarianism, but I'm more and more sure complimentarianism is closer to Biblical teachings.
Could someone please write a definition of complimentarianism and egalitarianism in the comments or in the written introduction to the video. Its like learning a new language for me and my brain is in shock trying to keep these two " perspectives" defined in my mind...thank you.
@@terryhuffaker3615 Just remember the prefix's meanings. Egalitarian = egal = EQUAL (in literally everything; value, roles, etc.). Complement = equal in value, COMPLEMENTARY but different roles. Hope that helps a little!
@@terryhuffaker3615 egalitarian= men and women are the same and have same roles, jobs and abilities. Complimentarian = men and women are not the same rather they complement each other in their differences. They are both saying they are equal in value to God but egalitarian (the equal and same believers) don't believe you can be equal in value if you are different in roles, jobs, duties and stuff. Both groups believe the other group is misinterpreting scripture.
Your whole series has been a HUGE blessing in my life and my boyfriend and I look forward to the next video in this series every time you say it will be coming up! :) I found your channel about 2 years ago when I was searching for clear teaching against Calvinistic views and had been looking forward to women in leadership/teaching roles ever since you teased it back then. Your work is LARGELY appreciated and respected :)
As a women these are hard truths. As someone who formerly worked in a church and felt my role to be minimized and subjugated by insecure male leadership, I want to read into the Bible things that aren't there. In spite of this you, Pastor Mike, are gentle and affirming in your approach. I wish that the elders in my church had been as kind and understanding in there approach to conflict. With a more life affirming attitude towards women in general many women including myself would not exit from ministry with a wounded spirit. In a perfect sinless world, men in leadership would never need correction and women would feel supprted and become coworkers in the ministry to the glory of God without a power play. We all of us need to care for each other in love in the same sacrificial way within the church body as we profess to do with non believers. So thankful for a Godly man to make difficult concepts understandable while upholding womens importance in the family of God. You are healing my past hurts with your words and the support of Biblical principles with a humane, tender loving and inclusive approach. You have my gratitude. I will carry your teaching forward in my own work in ministry while trying to honor the Biblical role I play in a difficult and sin bound world. God bless.
Pastor Mike, thank you for this series, and all your other videos. You put an incredible amount of work into these videos and it doesn’t go unnoticed. I have learned so much from your teaching. Thank you for your humility, your unbiased approach, and most of all for showing us answers from scripture and in proper context. Love the work you do, but please take time to rest! We don’t want you burning out! Praying for you!
Mike, I have studied this topic off and on for 20+ years and have found your treatment on the subject the most thorough, thoughtful, and balanced of all that I have seen. It is as if the two sides of this debate don't really debate, but talk past each other, to prove their own stance rather than stand back and let the Bible speak for itself. This is what I have come to appreciate about your teaching. You let the Bible say what it says and rarely allow your own preconceptions to have the final say. I thank you for your very gracious manner of expressing the various views and your careful handling of Scripture. May God continue to bless you.
I appreciate that you prioritise scripture above tradition, scholarship, and cultural pressure, when considering how we ought to think about these issues. I don’t think these videos are too long, as complicated topics deserve time to unpack and understand.
This is so extremely helpful for me. I'm a 27 year old woman dedicated to live out what God has in store for me, and using biblical teaching to inform weather or not my heart aligned with God's in what I do. This is very difficult when I don't have the knowledge to go in depth into what the obvious difference between men and women in the bible, means for me today. I want to honour God in obedience, but had no idea how to do so in relation to leadership in the church.
There are 2 views (as far as I know). The correct one and the incorrect one. So we have: Complementarianism and Egalitarianism Personally, the view that explains Deborah, in Judges Chapter 4 is the way I go. (My essay on her is perhaps below, or else I can post it.)
There is no way l could do all the reading & research you do, your content is a massive blessing & l really appreciate it. Please dont exhaust yourself, l want your ministry to remain sustainable as it has helped me do exactly what you intended...by helping me think more biblically about everything 👍
Hi Pastor Mike. Just wanted to answer your question at the end: yes this is definately helping and blessing my wife and I. We found you a few months ago on youtube. We work together at night (so we particularly love your longer detailed videos) and have many of your videos downloaded via youtube that we listen to with earphones while we work, and we often discuss our thoughts afterwards. You have been helping us greatly to think biblically with many of your series such as the Jesus in the Old Testament series and your Q&As and others videos. God bless you and keep 'em coming.
This is so important for us to recognize our submission to authority. This applies to all men everywhere, including women. To identify and then submit to that Biblical authority should be seen as a blessing and not as oppression. We are all under authority and this is the very appreciation and recognition that should prevent us from making the same mistake as Eve and those at the Tower of Babel. It was pride and pursuit of self that gets us into trouble. Knowing how to be submissive and humble is to be desired and appreciated for wisdom and maturity . This isn’t just about women is it about desiring and pursuing a right relationship with God. We must trust His instruction, His order, His commands and rest in His design, even when told to be submissive. We should appreciate what it is to be submissive and to be in service of someone. How can we appreciate what it is to be a servant or a slave for Christ if we are not willing to submit to others? By not accepting these rolls we seek to elevate ourselves with Christ and this should not be. In our relationship with Christ I should desire to be submissive and honored to serve under authority.
Well said. We should not ever resent being submissive, if we are to be of any help. Let's look at our Lord! He never said a word His father did not approve of and authorize. He even said it" the exact way his father told him to". Amazing love and submission. John 8:16 and better: John 12:49 NIV He told me what to say and HOW to say it. Amazing. Blessings!
@@claudiaperfetti7694 it is not about being resentment to submission ---it is all the many rules that are man-made and supercede a man or women lfirst folloiwing God's leading over men's leading A man will not be questioned by his authority--- -the pastor or deacons---- when he says God is leading me to do this and so. but women will be questioned, denigratated, even shamed if they say God is leading them to do something apart from what men think they should do (housewife, mother, etc).
@@susanbarackman-artist7670 this is in response to your second thought about Men vs Women. I do know that sometimes Men take advantage of their leadership positions. However, If what you are being "lead" to do, totally goes against scripture, man or woman, you should seriously reconsider if it is God or your own desires that are calling you to take this action.
Pastor Mike, I have only watched the first three videos of this series on women in their entirety (not to mention two of your videos on Calvinism) and I must say that I am thoroughly impressed with your extremely fair and balanced treatment of the issue, your respect toward all of the parties involved in the debate, and the fact that you never seem to attack anyone's character or suggest his ulterior motives, but always retain your indignation for the misinterpretation and misapplication of Scripture alone. You are a champion. I come from a contemporary charismatic background in a bilingual Church where a man pastored half the church in one language and his wife pastored the other half in the other language (albeit under her husband's General oversight). As I spoke both languages, I was involved equally in both congregations. I was involved in visitation and in leading the music. Curiously, at that time, I saw myself in agreement with every doctrine in that church except for the issue of the leadership, the teaching, and the pastoring of a woman over men (including young men). I was a brand-new believer with no particular religious background, no predjudice, I had no one to steer me one way or the other on this issue (other than some mildly-egalitarian preaching on occasion, but not even much), and I had no ax to grind, either. I simply saw one thing in the Bible in my private readings, and another thing in practice, in my own church, when it came to this one issue alone. I got along with everybody and was happy to have this church as a home and knew that everybody at this church cared about me, including the pastor and his wife, but I still could not reconcile what I found in the Bible with what I saw in the church, but, again, only on this one issue. In fact, I saw it as a relatively small issue, as I do today, but whose violation can produce tremendous consequences throughout the world of Christiandom, by forcing culture onto the church, turning women into men and men into women, robbing boys of their manhood, denying leadership to those who are otherwise biblically qualified, and giving it to those who had promoted themselves based on cultural pressure alone. Of course, another consequence is that contemporary Bible teaching is now tainted throughout the world, with emotion based on psychology rather than on Scripture, and, all for the simple reason that we now have leaders in the pulpit with highly emotional rather than rational inclinations, that stem from their very physical nature. Coming from a person who had egalitarian inclinations at the onset of the discussion, you make arguments that are particularly convincing. In fact, I appreciate the fact that you leave the inconclusive passages inconclusive, offer possible explanations, and leave it at that. What else can a reasonable person do? It is helpful to remember that whenever Christian people find themselves joining sides on the issue of feminism, with politicians and cultural icons who support other issues that Christians do not even agree with (such as abortion, socialism, and homosexuality), the very fact that they are strange bedfellows, in itself, should make it clear from the onset, that's something is wrong, and that the issue is not necessarily whether this handful of Bible passages can be interpreted one way or another, but rather that there may be an underlying spiritual issue in the lives of these proponents, that needs to be resolved, before they can see clearly on this issue. In the case of a Christian woman writing a book on Church leadership, for example, but who was often sexually abused as a child, or physically beaten by her father countless times, or who grew up with a single mother that always spoke disparagingly of the girl's father, or of men in general, or a woman who was always told since her childhood, by her parents, since the day she was born, that her parents had always wanted a boy instead of a girl, how can she be expected to have a completely unbiased biblical worldview, untainted by increasingly-feminist secular news and culture, when she writes her book on the subject of Biblical leadership? And why was she sitting at her computer anyway, writing this book, while other members of her church were out sharing the gospel from house to house, saving people from eternal damnation, or teaching the Bible to children in the streets, or taking part in missions trips to Haiti and other poor countries, or discipling teenage girls in broken homes who had been the victims of sexual abuse themselves? Was she perhaps more concerned with getting back at God for the way that she was treated, by teaching hundreds of her readers to live lifestyles that contradict God's clear teaching? Pastor Mike, please take courage and continue the good work that you are doing, and don't let the back-sliders wear you down.
Thanks so much Mike. It is indeed a blessing - especially the Greek words & how they get translated. I have listened to lots of your youtube videos but today I am moved to pray for you as you continue with this study as I think it is incredibly important as many of us genuinely "seek ye first the kingdom of God" and we want to be living out God's will in our lives & in our church as part of the body. May God bless you.
My wife and I are watching these as dinner dates. It amused me that the reason for our disrupted dinner date schedule is that you are going to be involved in a marriage conference. We greatly appreciate your efforts to find what the Bible actually says about topics and your willingness to say when you think things are ambiguous. We also appreciate that you put so much time and effort into diving deep in these videos (even if we wish that didn't prevent you from posting them every week).
Has this been a blessing to our family? Yes! It’s been a blessing for my husband and I as we carefully analyze things we’ve been taught and examples we’ve seen against the scriptures and how you expound on them. Sometimes it takes something being pointed out or clarified in order to notice it, and your zeal to teach only what the Bible really says is what keeps us coming back. Beyond that, I truly appreciate your influence on our children as they get to hear someone besides us lecture about the importance of sticking to scripture. Your videos are often a conversation piece at our dinner table. Thank you!!
As a mama of a toddler and a newborn, I am so grateful for this. You just plain don't have the reading time you used to. Thank you so much. This has been a great big question mark for so long for me.
The past 4 teaching on women in ministry have been so helpful and eye opening! Thank you so much for your diligent study. Your sisters in Christ thank you, you have no idea how much we need this!
Watching your videos that are concerning women has truly changed my attitude and approach to my husband and my role as a Christian wife and my role in the church. I really had to repent, but oh it so freeing once you get the Truth! Thank you for taking all the time and energy to make the videos and being bold and having the courage to stand in the light among the darkness of false teachings. May God bless you ABUNDANTLY!!!
Thanks, Brother Mike. I left my parent's church 19 years ago for different reasons but my mom and two of my sisters preached as well as several other women. I haven't seen the positives of women preachers and pastors. Now I know that it's because of disobedience to Scripture and it's a slippery slope that brings several other railroad cars with it. Sadly we are seeing the fruit of this in the SBC. Thanks again for being obedient.
@@rebeccacustis8825 Actually that wasn't the only issue. The men including myself were not qualified either. The issue is doctrine. When you ignore and deny Scripture you open up the door to personal revelations which is dangerous. It's par for the core as far as cults go. They are no longer building on the foundation left to us by Christ and the Apostles of Christ.
Thank you Mike for doing this series! This topic has always weighed heavy on my heart and very few people are willing to do so much hard work to help with this issue. Gender is pretty evidently one the most difficult and important debates in the modern world, so many struggle with it. We need more empathetic, considerate, careful, and scholarly discussions like this! Men and women being different was meant to be a blessing, let's not allow it to be a curse! :)
Thanks for this teaching. I am "worship pastor" at my church and your conclusion does help me to know that I am really more of a deacon. It assures me that the role of what I am doing is not sinful, but perhaps what the church labels it is not clear. It's a good conversation to have. Thanks for all your research!
Oh yeah, I think most roles in the church with different fancy names are types of deacons, haha. Mostly it's administering different individual skills or giftings for the church as far as I can tell.
Pastor Mike, first of all, wow, your studies are a huge blessing and I really appreciate all the hard work you put into every teaching you bring to us. You are definitely gifted by the Holy Spirit to do the ministry He has given you. I often think about so many of the discussions that cause so much separation and dissention in the Body of Christ, and I'm sure you've thought of these as well, but I had to mention my take on it. I believe there is much irony in the fact that our Father certainly knew all the questions and "discussions" His children would have over so many secondary issues in His Word, and yet He still left some room for those discussions, by the way His Word was inspired...which leads us to dig deeper and deeper into His Word, to ask, seek, and knock for those answers. I believe as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." The Lord will make it all clear in that moment...till then, we'll keep digging deeper and deeper...The Lord bless you brother!!❤🔥🙏❤🔥
Mike this has helped me tremendously. I heard a sermon about how women should stay home and be silent in church. I was upset. I work and want to be an active member of my church but I was hesitant. I didn't want to go against God's Word.
stay home? if that was the case then they wd never go to church, either! go to church, sing in the choir, go teach kids sunday school, and join the womens groups.
Your commitment to biblical thinking, regardless of whether or not you agree with it prior to your research is inspiring. It is incredibly difficult to maintain a consistent way of thinking and apply it with integrity. In regards to this series, I love it. I have been wrestling through some of these issues for some time and I really appreciate your careful and logical review of the arguments, evidence and biblical guidance. Thank you for your ministry.
Great in-depth teaching. Most church leaders of all denominations 'bypass' the Bible today and go on feelings or some new revelation. However, remember The Word is The Word, regardless of how we philosophize or think or feel, His Word lasts forever and is immovable. Point. Period. Paragraph
This series has been such a blessing to me so far and I can’t wait until the rest of the videos are released! I really appreciate your in-depth Scripture-based approach to tackling the huge and often divisive subject of women in ministry. I think it’s crucial that we go to the Bible as our primary source of knowledge on these matters and apply a critical thinking lens to other scholarly sources that have been produced. The amount of time and research you’ve put into studying this topic is evident and I’m so glad that you present both sides of the argument by comparing and contrasting common claims to the Bible. The transparency is so needed! As a woman who has felt called to start a women’s ministry and to take on a greater leadership role with the youth at my local church, I had really struggled with whether this was acceptable to God based on my gender and I never felt I got a clear answer from pastors on the subject. Thank you for the much-needed clarity you’ve been providing through this series! God bless you, Pastor Mike!
Thank you Pastor Mike you were on Fire 🔥 Today! I really appreciate your time and thorough study on this. As a woman in ministry this has always plagued me.
Mike- Thank you so much for your faithfulness brother, your relentless research is so beneficial to the Body of Christ. May the Lord bless and keep you and continue to guide you on a straight path. I doubt I'll ever bump into you on earth but I look forward to worshiping the Lord together one day 🙏
In this thoughtful, careful presentation, (much appreciated) you summarize a vast amount of background study, and some things necessarily don't get included due to time constraints. If you could, please comment on the requirement for deacons to be husbands of one wife, and how this might bear on the translation of the word for wife/woman. 1 Timothy 3:12 says (ESV) "Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well."
This study has echoed my own understanding of the pertinent scripture which I've pondered over several decades.I like the thoroughness of Mike's approach
Mike, thank you so much for this series. It is very helpful. I am an Elder in my local church and have wanted to be able to work this through thoughtfully and biblically and am finding this to be an answer to prayer. I have also been grateful for the other content that you've posted on other topics - e.g. marriage and divorce. Go well at the conference and look forward, in God's goodness, to the next one when you are able to put it out. Have a great Easter time too. Serving together!
Thank you, Mike, for your very careful explanations. I greatly appreciate the work and time you put into this teaching. As a woman who has always felt like a teacher, and much more so after being saved, I've really struggled with my seeming contradictory belief that only men should be pastoring. It's an unpopular view for women to have, but I never saw any support for women pastors in the Word. Sometimes I wish these things were not true...it seems it would be so much easier to find my role. But our job is not to do what's easy or popular, but rather to do as God instructs. The egalitarian view is impossible to accept, and I can finally lay the issue to rest in my mind. If we look at the Word in its context, and accept that we can find God's will in it even if it disagrees with our preferences, we have a better chance of knowing truth rather than the error that pleases us. May you be richly blessed, and continue to help us rightly divide the Word of Truth.
You had my laughing today... As soon as you said there was one Translation, I was saying out loud that it has to be the Passion Transformation!!! The work you are doing on this is extremely helpful, even to those of us that might disagree ever so slightly. It is an honest approach, and rebuking footnotes that support nothing helps clear the clutter.
As a lay elder who works full time in another industry, I'm so thankful for Mike's work, especially in topics like this. I frequently reference his videos as I'm preparing lessons, sermons, or simply recommending content to members of my church who want to learn more about various topics. I so appreciate his thoroughness in study and explanations, even in the very rare instances when I disagree.
Love you teaching us to think...think biblically... and to actually read...just if people just read well, so many of the questions are answered. I think often people just don't want to know. Thank you Pastor Mike...I am looking so forward to Hebrews as well...
THANK YOU for this series! I (Rachel) have largely ignored some of these scriptures that quite honestly bothered me but am now hungry to dig deep. Thank you for all your time and devotion to study the Word of God. Blessings. 💞🙏🏼
Thanks Mike again for all your work on this. I would recommend these videos to anyone - I think you've done a fantastic job of giving a balanced view of the arguments. This video has challenged some ideas I had heard from scholars (and accepted because I'm not a scholar - they get paid to do this research this stuff in detail). It's very helpful (particularly on elders, this has probably changed my thinking). I think this is a very helpful study - and importantly you are doing it in a manner which is gracious and loving to those you disagree with.
We appreciate every minute you dedicated to helping us understand! I am studying to be a Chaplin but recently put it on hold because I needed to know the facts about this topic. It wasn’t until I saw your first video on this topic. As a woman who follows Jewish/Christian teachings (Jews for Jesus) I want to be a servant I have always been but I want to do it right. So THANK YOU!!!
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Reply for it if desired. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. That is how a woman could judge men of their sins, including homicide. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
I was raised in a stricter complimentarian church background (with some ppl going super strict), but never being told why. Now, cue me just wanting to know what's biblical and true, this video was very intriguing and gave me a lot to think about. Thank you for your careful research, Pastor Mike!
Pastor Mike, I wanted to thank you deeply for your work and faithfulness in bringing this in-depth study of women’s roles in the Bible. It has been so helpful for me personally. I serve as a Worship Leader and Deaconess in my church and have often wrestled with these issues. Our church’s views are very similar to your own conclusions, so far, but I have often wrestled myself with different passages of scripture because more than anything, I want to honor God through honoring and obeying His Word. This series has brought me to tears at a few point at the goodness of God. Thank you so much for digging deeply into this topic and thank you to your family who shared your time so you could prepare it. Praying for your ministry and greatly looking forward to the rest of this series. Thank you! Amanda
I’m greatful for your careful teachings of these subjects! I am starting to feel that frustration you voiced now when I am evaluating anyone making claims and supporting them with scripture. It is definitely a process to be learned and you’re helping so many of us learn that. God bless you and your ministry; people, use your resources to support this!
Yes this is helping me. One year later. So glad you did this series. I wasn't overly interested in the actual topic but it's helping me think bionically about everything. I'm complimentaryan but didn't really know what that was till listening to you. I'm learning lots of new words.
This is the first time I heard that some church traditions would not allow women to teach theology. No wonder many women write or teach mainly warm fuzzy material that appeals to the emotions only. 🤔 This is the main reason I avoid Christian women writers and women’s retreats. I think it’s important for women to learn theology and then TEACH it to others, men and women, because Christians are supposed to think about our faith.
Women should learn theology and teach it to kids, their family, to women. The Bible doesn't ban women teaching theology globally, just not to men in a church setting, a worship service.
There are many critically thinking, intelligent, theologically knowledgeable women who write great books and may even have podcasts. I, too, was never attracted to women's Bible studies or retreats. I love apologetics. But I understand as a Christian I am to humble myself before the word of God. I can learn and teach in many settings but just not in a formalized church setting that includes men. Pleasing the Lord is above all. I have no issue submitting to this. None. 🙌
@@laurieomura7188 Amen sister God Bless your humility and wisdom. In my private time I have learned from women writers, podcasts And my wife gives me good second opinion daily. The pulpit is not just for any random guy either. But a Godly married man.
One way I teach the terminology of Bishop, Pastor, Elder is Bishop=Office, Pastor=Activity/Task/ (Shepherding), Elder=Person (type). By the way, brother you did an outstanding, bang up job on this. Thanks for putting in the work and making this available. Good job. The Lord will honor it.
The church I used to attend would not even let woman teach Sunday school with children. A woman could not even help her husband teach Sunday school. The woman in this church are not even allowed to pray out loud during the service when the men pray. The woman were to have their heads covered & remain silent throughout the whole service. This was my first church after I became a born again Christian. I was a teacher & loved kids but wasn’t allowed to use my gift in Sunday School. I felt so depressed & overcome there was a real weight that just came upon me & I lost my joy. Thank you Pastor Mike for such thorough in-depth teaching of the word.
Sister in Christ, go to a church where you are allowed to use your gifts for the glory of God don’t let any man or woman steal your shine because they’re insecure or jealous. Complementarianim is not of God it invokes pride in men and stifles women in their God given gifts.
Did you try showing them 1 Corinthians 11 about how women could pray or prophecy with their heads covered? You obviously wouldn’t prophecy silently, or it would be pointless, so why wouldn’t praying out loud also be permissible?
@@yvettelordschild6616it is pride in women that would think they no better than God and refuse to submit to him in regards to how he sets up leadership in the church. You may not like it but to be in rebellion is sin just as with anything else we don’t like that the lord puts in place.
@@Papaspronator That might be true for you, but I have a personal relationship with God through Christ and you don’t know my story and I don’t know yours. From your perspective it looks like I’m rebellious but in my perspective I’m right in line with what God wants for me for my life. So in conclusion you worry about yourself and I will worry about me.
@@yvettelordschild6616 Gods word is the authority. It is true for all people. If your relationship you think you have with God is calling you to something that contradicts scripture then you should ignore it. That is not the voice of God. And I am not an atheist but even if I was and I was telling you to follow the Bible then I would still be correct regardless.
I am SO very thankful for your in-depth study/teaching on this subject. My church is beginning to seem to waver on this very subject, and your material is very useful and helpful to me in knowing what the Word says about this issue. Thank you!
stacy I post on these matters, as an egalitarian. Reply if desired. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood... -excerpt 1 Peter 2 A 2-tiered priesthood doesn't exist, but this is what Complementarianism supports. It is a false teaching. It uses double-talk by telling women they are equal to men, yet states that women can't teach men. It states that a group of Christian women can not be a church under any circumstances, because there would be no elders.
Thank you for doing the work to go through these ideas carefully. I grew up in a hyper patriarchal church where many of the men did not see me as a real person- just a breeder and a temptress to be wary of. Videos like this help me reclaim my humanity without reacting to the non sense I was taught. And for those of us who grew up like this, you aren’t just talking about gender. For us, you are showing God’s goodness. It’s appreciated.
I don't believe a church with born again believers would treat you this way. Are you sure you are not exaggerating? What made you feel this way? I have heard a few christian women saying that being a mother and a wife is not enough for them, and even treat those two blessings with contempt. I hope you don't agree with them. You girls have one of the most important missions in the church. Without a good mother and a good wife the demons would get into your family and sweep everything away in an instant.
@@JesusProtects nope. Not exaggerating. Thanks. Is there a reason you are setting yourself up as my teacher? First questioning my honesty and then teaching me like I’m 10? Assuming all kinds of things I never said? And then lecturing me on them?
and mike wants all churches to go back to that. He hates the less patriarchal views much more then those his teachings are designed to protect from consequences when they abuse people
This content is most definitely helping me, and I imagine many others. I spent several years as the wife of a named elder at our previous church where the head pastor manipulated both my husband and me and countless others. He spoke in a very degrading manner to me about my role as an elder and campus pastor's wife and long story short I have been reeling from that for the past couple of years. We have since moved to another state and with that a new church and I have been praying and seeking God about how to use my gifts in ways that honor Him. When you spoke about paranoid masculinity in this video, I cried. You mentioned that women who have something important to say will shrink back because they aren't sure if they are allowed to speak up. This has been my experience for the past few years because of what I was repeatedly told about what I was "allowed" to do in the body of Christ and how I needed to be quiet and let the Lord speak to my husband. Your first video cautioning people not to let their pain and past experiences cloud how they read scripture was also a good reminder for me and made me that much more excited to really dive into this series with fresh eyes and a heart seeking to glorify God. All of that to say - this content has been extremely helpful and I am looking forward to watching the rest!
I caught the middle of this so I gotta go back and give it a listen. I'm hoping you see this, A BIG THANK YOU for your extensive research. Anything that has anything to do with a pridefilled spirit, I personally refuse. But your take, and humble spirit, I greatly appreciate and hold high. Thanks!
I share your frustration over the lack of biblical thinking regarding women in ministry. I am now 66 yrs. old and have yet to hear any teaching on this topic within the church. In my late twenties I was asked to teach. When I asked the Lord what topic he wanted me to pursue, nothing came to mind. However I did come across passages about women teaching so I asked the Lord to show me His truth even though I had come from a different mindset. I spent 3 months studying the scriptures alone. At the end, my mind was changed. It's been frustrating off and on over the years to see the pervasive egalitarian thinking taking root in this particular area. It's been challenging for me. I questioned my conviction many times. I recently read a book to see if I had missed something. Though I looked carefully, there were no biblical proof texts. I went and talked to the elders of my church with my husband because I felt strongly that I should at least share my heart and what I understood. They listened though they feel differently. So, thank you for the time you spent on this in-depth study and sharing it. I hope the church in general will take a serious note and be blessed by it.
I have always been complimentarian, just based on upbringing and my own study of scripture. I went to Asbury Theological Seminary (which I would highly recommend). I was always unconvinced by the egalitarian arguments presented (Dr. Keener and Dr Witherington for example), but wanted to really do a detailed study to see where I came down. This series has been immensely helpful in really putting words and cohesion to many of my issues with the egalitarian arguments.
I've watched many of your videos with intent to watch them all. I appreciate all of the time that it takes for you to compile all of the data for an average 2 hour video. I pray for conviction when I watch or listen to any Bible teacher/Pastor etc and I have never been convicted by anything I've heard you say. Sometimes I have even finished your thought. I believe that The Lord is with you 💯. God bless and keep spreading the Good News 🙏.
Hi Pastor Mike, Thank you so much for doing this series and truly taking scripture at its word and guiding us in seeing the truth of God’s intended roles! I did have a question about 1 Tim 3:12: “Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.” For overseers, you use this similar wording (V. 2,4) as grounds for overseers being masculine-one wife and managing households and children-yet the verse was not discussed when talking about deacons, and I think this verse complicates the idea that a woman could be a deacon. I completely understand your reasoning behind woman deacons, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this verse being included in deacon qualifications as well as overseer qualifications. Thank you so much for your ministry and faithful stewardship of the Word of God!
Agree. I have really appreciated your thorough assessment in this series so far but am curious why this was left out of your table as a deacon qualification. Appreciate all your work!
You say you hope it is a blessing. yes! As many others have testified it is, very much appreciated.It’s like having a good meal when you’ve been eating junk food.I’ve spent many years wanting to understand these things. I’ve been cautious about studying because things get crazy and you know it’s not scriptural, you can ditch a lot of books. I’ve looked to women in the church whom I’m close to for advice but it’s encouraging to have a man thoroughly researching and I get to tag along. This has been greatly needed. Thank you
Hi Mike, I hope you see this. It's long, but please bear with me! First of all, thank you so much for this careful and thoughtful study, it's been informative and helpful for me and I'm sure it will be for countless others for years to come. It is an excellent and accessible resource that is much needed. However, I have two issues with this video: 1) I am glad that you brought up the difference between an elder (aka bishop, presbyter, overseer) in the Biblical sense and a pastor in the modern sense, but there *is* a Biblical sense of the word pastor that I wish you would have gotten into. I don't agree that we ought to use the term "pastor" to describe elders today, because that isn't how it was intended in the Biblical sense. I think calling elders "pastors" will only breed further confusion. As I understand it, Biblical pastoring is described in the same way as praying, prophesying, evangelizing, singing, etc., meaning that (again, in the Biblical sense), it's a job/task/role that virtually anyone can do, namely, it does not require appointment or recognition to do it, nor are there restrictions or qualifications on it-it is something to be done as led by the Holy Spirit, as any other Spiritual gift. As you may know, the word means "shepherd," and it is mainly used of Jesus to describe the way he cared for others. Granted, shepherding *is* something Paul expects (or at least exhorts) elders to do, but I do not believe shepherding (Biblical pastoring) is limited to elders. My opinion is that the modern use of the word pastor is unfortunate, because it is too detached from the original meaning for us to be using the same word. It causes confusion. I'm not sure whether we should return to the original use of the terms and coin new terms for the positions we have today, but I think it's very important for every believer to know first that a modern pastor ≠ a Biblical pastor, and a modern elder ≠ a Biblical elder, and second to know what the Biblical sense of the words actually mean. 2) I know you promised to make a stronger case in your next video, but it seems to me that your argument that elders must be male in *this* video is based on the fact that the description of elders in 1 Tim 3 uses masculine terms. To me, this is a weak argument, because it is not unusual for masculine terms to be used to describe both men and women. For example, not to equivocate, but to cover both senses of the word "masculine," on the grammatical level, ἄνθρωπος is a grammatically masculine word that refers to men and women. More importantly, regarding the masculine pronouns, even today we will use the word "he" when we mean someone either male or female (though that is increasingly rare). For example, I might say "a competent musician can tell you his favorite scale," even though not all musicians are male, nor would I be suggesting that by using the word "he." An expert on koine Greek and first century Greek culture could tell us if that is a fair way to interpret Paul's writing in this passage (and likewise in Titus 1). I would not go as far as to say the terms are gender-neutral-I agree that they are masculine-but I would say that the gender is incidental, not essential. Secondly, we know that we cannot take 1 Tim 3 to be a list of strict requirements, because in that case all elders and deacons must be both married and have children. Yet, Paul calls himself an elder, and is neither married nor has children. This means that 1 Tim 3 must be outlining guiding principles for appointed roles, which are based on godly character. We cannot say based on this passage alone that elders *must be* male without also saying that they *must be* married, otherwise we are not being fair with the text.
I think 1 Tim. 3 uses the phrase "man of one woman" to require monogamy, not to require marriage, so an unmarried man who does not commit adultery would still be eligible. And the reference to children means "if he has children, they must be well behaved". Reading these as commands to have wives and children is a rather contorted understanding IMO.
"is based on the fact that the description of elders in 1 Tim 3 uses masculine terms." Well, also saying "of one wife" is important (yes we hold to the idea that it doesn't strictly mean they must be married, but it doesn't say "or a woman of one man"), and then they discuss the aspect of deacons, too. If the masculine terminology was gender-neutral in this case, they'd have to clarify because a woman cannot be "of one wife." The implication here is pretty obvious its not gender-neutral but just male specific. Deacons describe both men and women separately. Sometimes its translated "deacon's wives" but I think Mike makes a good case to indicate it just means female deacons, of which Phoebe was one. So the implication is here that deacons are specifically stated to be allowed to be women while there is no such suggestion for elders. Elders/overseers also have authority in the church, but women "shall not have authority over a man" (or perhaps husband) at least in a church context, which furthers the connection that elders/overseers must be men. I do agree with the idea that perhaps we shouldn't use the term "pastor" at all and stick to the term "elder" or "overseer" instead, but its unlikely that will stick in the modern context. We recognize pastors as the leaders of the church, effectively making pastors the modern-day term for elder.
@@jrconway3 I appreciate the thoughtful reply, thank you. 1) “we hold to the idea that it doesn't strictly mean they must be married” The way I see it, if we’re not going to regard the phrase, “of one woman” as a strict requirement for marriage, then we can’t also use it as the basis of a strict requirement for male eldership. I don’t see how we can have it can’t have it both ways. 2) ”If the masculine terminology was gender-neutral in this case, they'd have to clarify because a woman cannot be "of one wife." Well, more importantly, a woman cannot be male. So by that logic, Paul would also have to clarify that an elder could be a woman by saying something like, “he or she.” My point again being that the phrase, “of one wife” is not sufficient to build that case off of. Masculine terminology does not necessarily mean it is intended to refer only to males (see my prior example). It /can/ mean that, but we already have context clearly showing this description of elders and deacons is not a list of strict requirements, so therefore we cannot just assume that masculinity is intended to be a requirement when marriage and parenting is not. 3) “The implication is here that deacons are specifically stated to be allowed to be women while there is no such suggestion for elders.” I think this is a sound argument and probably the strongest if its true that “women” means “women deacons” and not “deacons’ wives”. Not strong enough to /ban/ women from eldership in my opinion, but enough to make the case that Paul probably did not envision female elders. That’s certainly worth considering. 4) “women ‘shall not have authority over a man’ (or perhaps husband) … which furthers the connection that elders/overseers must be men.” Whether this verse refers to men in general or husbands actually does determine whether this has relevance to the issue of elders. If it refers to husbands, I don’t think it is relevant, because the issue in question is God’s design for family. If it’s regarding men in general (which I am of the opinion that it is not), then it would weigh into the discussion of eldership. 5) “We recognize pastors as the leaders of the church, effectively making pastors the modern-day term for elder.” I’m still developing my understanding on the subject, so do feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. However, this idea exemplifies what is in my opinion a ubiquitous and drastically under-recognized departure from the original concept of eldership, to the peril of the Church. I don’t believe the intended role (God’s design) for eldership exists as intended in a significant capacity today. To use the body analogy, an elder is /not/ the brains of the Body, organizing and directing normal operations-The “laypeople” are supposed to be able to handle that. The elder is the immune system of the Body. That’s not to say they don’t have authority-they certainly do. Their purpose, though, is to combat false doctrine and protect the flock from the roots of sin, distraction, and falling away-To guard against wolves as a shepherd does, hence Peter’s exhortation to “shepherd the flock of God.” Modern pastors wear many hats, probably too many, and we all expect this. I think it’s often draining to them and potentially hazardous to the Church, mainly because it mitigates the protective role of the elder by not having people dedicated to only that. While I have more to say, I’ll leave it at that for now. I think this is an issue that warrants a study of its own.
Awesome job with this. I am reminded of the wife of an appointed elder being in my opinion the best teacher in a rotating group of teachers of an adult sunday school. She didnt assume an authority over us yet I preferred her teaching talents over all the other teachers which were men.
Thanks for sharing this Mike. I've seen extremes in the body of Christ where people are obviously proof texting on one side and on the other, I have heard pastors say that Churches that have women in leadership are not true churches. This issue has been something I've been wrestling with. The church I attend has a woman lead pastor and other women pastors. What I've noticed is that she is one of the most competent and one of the best role models of any pastor I've been under. The church that I'm attending has a strong value towards scripture and the gospel with a high value on the mission of Christ. On the other hand I've seen and been involved in a variety of local churches that have male leadership but far less spiritually mature and capable of leading. While I still struggle with the female leadership issue, I still see so much good in the church that my family and I are still serving in the church. So then what is the right course of action here? Since the church was founded by our pastor, I strongly doubt that will change any time soon. What do you suggest?
@@quantaviousjenkins7667 thanks for sharing that. I was considering that until I was hearing that having women in pastoral roles was in clear rebellion to God and you were sinning against God. I also heard heard alot of other things against women leadership that I don’t need to repeat. So I heard that not only was it a sin for women to be in any form of leadership but if you subjected yourself to their leadership in any way (including listening to them on social media) you were sinning against God as well. It’s good to hear an overall clear and in depth teaching on the subject.
@@ambientlight3876 yea that would be incorrect. What matters most is that Christ is preached. Sure, it may not be in the best and proper format, but Christ is still preached and God is glorified
I'm an elders wife and leader in our local church and the ladies in our body are very divided on these issues and this has been so helpful understanding all the points of view. I feel pretty much the same way you do according to my own study. The most bizarre part is that the men don't have any issues in this area. Thank you so much for this. 😀
Well of course the men have no problem with this kind of teaching. Very few male egos would turn down an offer of power. Even completely Christian, otherwise humble males are very willing usually to usurp authority over a female. At least that's been my experience. And I'm nearly 60 yrs old, been in conservative churches my entire life.
@@maryellen6153 I mean the men in our body have no issue with women leading them or teaching them. If the woman is wise and shows integrity then they are respected as a woman who will speak life into a situation. I see where you're coming from though.
You ask if all of this is helpful? Yes! I have never come upon this detailed of teaching on the subject and have always felt less than confident in discussing it. This is so helpful, and I watch and think about all of it, so don't think of it as being "too long." I taught critical thinking classes (among others) to college students for many years, and the primary questions I taught my students to ask are these: Is this true? And how do we know? or How can we find out? More than one student expressed how thinking this way even about simple things like articles, videos, commercials, studies, statistics, etc. was life-changing for them. How much more life-changing for many to learn to ask these questions and refer back to the full teaching of Scripture as our source of evidence. You are teaching this skill well. Fabulous! I share your frustration about the many who never look up the footnotes, read the actual Scriptures, or question the "experts." Many leaders in the church say not to read this Christian book or that Christian book or to consider the teachings of this Christian teacher or that Christian teacher. Instead, I say--read the book--with your Bible by your side. Look up every passage, and read the full chapter (or more) if needed, to get the context. Pay attention to how Scripture is being used. Choose the straight-forward reading over intellectual gymnastics. Make prayer the foundation of your study, and go for wise counsel if you are every confused, but don't look to wise counsel to tell you what to believe. Keep going back to Scripture as the authoritative source. Thank you for sharing your study and conclusions and taking people back to Scripture as the final authority. You are doing a very good work.
It has been very helpful and I thank you so much for the time and energy you’re putting into this study. I hope that at the end you’ll consider bringing your egalitarian scholar friend on to discuss some of the feedback he has on your presentation of this material. Thanks for all that you do.
I have been watching this series with my husband and it has provoked some serious, thoughtful conversation! I so appreciate the way you emphasize that what women say within the church can be valuable and fruitful, that women are described as wise, and are at times listened to by men in the Bible. I think society and Christian culture have sometimes presented through their application of their beliefs/theology that authority=value. So saying that “equal in value, different in role” statement doesn’t always end up meaning much. However, the Bible helps us with that too - when Jesus’s disciples argued about who was greatest among them He pointed to a child and said becoming like children, being least, being servant-minded is central to being a good leader. I loved your thoughts on how the Church neglects teaching around the elderly!! I think lack of commitment to a particular church means we don’t get to know each other well enough to build relationships where older men/women are teaching the younger or where the younger are supporting/taking care of the older. I am interested to hear how you define the role of elder through the Scriptures. I have encountered a lot of confusion around what I should expect from my Elders as a woman who is unable to fill that role in my Church. Blessings on you, brother, for dealing carefully with the word of God on this topic and caring about women like me who want to serve God, and want it to be pleasing and acceptable to Him.
Thank you for another addition to this excellent study series! This IS helpful and much needed for us all in the Church. Thank you Mike! From what I'm learning about these two views, I would say I certainly fall more in the complimentarian standing. And I've noticed that it seems the egalitarian view tends to heavily reach and scavenge for scripture and translations and commentary that will support its presumptions of the scripture, meanwhile the complimentarian view tends to try too staunchly to avoid women having authority over men to the point that it tends to bar women from even properly equal roles and activity in the Church. It's nuanced but it seems that all of these topics around women in ministry call for us to think biblically and really consider what the text is actually saying, and to seek for the right working unity and harmony and submission to one another in the right roles and standings that are healthy for the church to operate as a unified family above all else.
We recently joined a Wesleyan church and my only hang up prior to joining is that I'm not 100% "sold" on women pastors. Women can be ordained pastors in the Wesleyan church. I am still struggling with this, but we love our Pastor and the church body, so I will simply serve to the best of my ability Lord willing. That said, over the past year we as a family experienced horribly painful church hurt at the church we left. I, we, used the Matthew 18 approach to dealing with the sin, the lies being fed to us by the senior pastor and worship leader. But, they refused to repent or even accept Biblical correction, I studied and wrote page after page explaining what the Bible states about what their actions should be, but it accomplished little to nothing. In THAT situation, I clearly was a woman who was leading with Scripture, who was using spiritual discernment and was teaching a man.... so.... I can see both sides. But also I can see how both sides can take it to the extreme! God bless you Pastor Mike, we have learned so much from you! Thank you!
This is hugely helpful Pastor Mike!!! It’s hard to find anyone who will talk about this subject let alone from a point of view that isn’t bent on their own bias. I somewhat recently started looking into all this myself on a deeper level and it’s nice to see that I wasn’t off on my findings. As a woman in ministry this is a hard subject that needs careful handling as I don’t want to step outside of what God wants into what I want. Thanks for doing this!!
I came into this study with extreme complimentary views and you have soften those a tad. Thank you for actually teaching the Bible with supreme authority and not making it fit your pre understanding based on culture and other outside influences. I Came in very skeptical of your biblical teaching (mostly because of your understanding of the doctrines of Grace). Glad I stuck around and listened carefully to your fruitful labor on the study of women in ministry. The best study on the subject I've listen to and I've listened to many theological giants on the subject such as McArthur, RC, Piper, Washer, Voddie, ect....thank you for holding scripture with the authority it deserves even if it says things that are hard to fit into our culture. Thank you for teaching in a way that is easy to understand for us simpletons. Theologians lose a lot of respect from me when they string together big words to sound smarter when it could have been said in much simpler terms. Glad you are not one of those. ☺️ Looking forward to listening to the rest of your series.
Bro your highlight from Titus 2 on the lack of generational teaching in the church, particularly men to men and women to women. Ive been waiting for a pastor to teach that for years! Do an episode on just that lol
Thank you SO MUCH for digging deep and sharing your findings here. Your time researching and teaching are greatly appreciated. I've found this study to be incredibly helpful and insightful, especially as a woman seeking to know her place in ministry. Looking forward to digesting the rest of the series. 🙏🙌
Q. First I wanna say I appreciate how much work you've put in to this. Your explanation behind female deacons makes a lot of sense to me, and gave me a lot to think about. I wanted to believe it bc ot made a lot of sense. However, looking at the text, there was one huge thing I didn't see you mention much, being vs12. How do you reckon the clear distinction in the Greek, "Deacons, be of one WIFE"? The word I see there is the same one used for women/wives in v11. Again, thank you Pastor Mike for all your hard work!
@@litaclark1 paul was reiterating that God's original plan was for one man one wife but after the fall poygamy came in and God allowed it for a season. Jesus fixed it and Paul was confimring that the deacon was to be a husband with only ONE wife not 2 or 3. This rule did not apply to women because women had only the one husband. There were women deacons in the early churhc so this rule is not saying women cannot be deacons.
Thank you so much for this series. Your thorough and objective study and presentation of the Bible is so helpful! As a mom of 4, I can listen while I'm doing home duties but am pressed for time to do this deep of digging into this topic solely on my own.
Wow. @41:00 was 🔥🔥🔥. Women- we MUST have deep theology. And in order to learn it we must TALK about it- even with others outside our immediate household!
Mike, the way you share truth so gently and humbly, without watering it down, and with humor sprinkled in, continually reminds me of Jesus, and what it must have been like to hear Him speak to his followers. You are a delight, Brother.
I have loved the video series so far. There is respectfully one point of contention that I have with this video. When discussing the 1 Tim 3 qualifications for elders/overseers you mentioned how they were all male-oriented qualifications, including being the husband of one wife. However, when you were discussing 1 Timothy 3 qualifications for Deacons, you completely neglected that verse 12 says that deacons also must be “the husband of one wife”.
Yeah I feel the same way, I am a complimentarian and I feel very blessed by this series. But the idea of a verse using masculine language meaning it only applies to males is a bit shaky. Especially when you consider verses like Deuteronomy 22:25-28, which discusses how rape is a sin and the victim of it is innocent. It uses masculine language to refer to the attacker and feminine language to refer to the victim. Does this mean rape is only a sin when it's a man assaulting a woman? No, obviously not, that's just the most common use case and the only one that would really occur in that culture. Ultimately, I am a complimentarian and I agree with the idea that pastor role is off limits for women, but general leadership roles are not, but I would not use the requirements for being a pastor using masculine language as an argument towards that. Especially given the decon point you made. God bless and I pray the absolute best for Mike Winger that he can continue to bless people through this series and others, and if I am incorrect on any points I have made here I pray that I get corrected in them.
I am a little frustrated by this as well...especially when Mike is discussing other folks points and conclusions from one verse that doesnt take into account the simple reading of the next few verses (I believe it was elder women teaching younger women... not that they were elders teaching broadly.. just mentoring other women to walk the faith). So it seems like Mike cut this short in a similar way. I love and appreciate Mikes work and teaching in many areas and have learned much from his biblical exegesis, but admittedly am confused and disappointed that this verse got no attention. So while I can agree with his conclusions, not handling this verse leaves me still a little confused and feeling like I have to force that conclusion on the text by trying to figure out how to interpret it with that conclusion in mind. My attempt at that is as follows... 1. Maybe Paul is going back the male deacon description/terminology of verse 8, but it broadly applies to both sexes as needing to be the spouse of just one other spouse. My thoughts go to passage discussed of the elderly widow who was a wife of one husband to be enrolled in welfare of the church. My thoughts also go to the description in 1 Cor 7 where Paul discusses remaining in the marital situation you were in when called to Christ and the discussion of a believing wife bringing an element of sanctification to her household. I do wish it were more clear in this context of 1 Tim 3 how exactly vs 8-13 relate to one another and this topic. Mike... you got 99% the way there man.. why leave us hanging like this my friend????
So, one of the reasons this may be, is because the Greek word for "deacon" is masculine. In my very brief examination into the Greek formations, this lines up with what Mike was talking about regarding both the absence of a female form for "deacon" and the discussion about "women" versus "wives" in the description of the potentially implied "deaconess." In this case, it definitely seems that one of two possibilities exist: 1) Paul is shifting back to speaking to men specifically 2) The masculine nature of the term "deacon" results in a grammatically appropriate sentence following. I'm somewhat inclined to lean on the latter, as cursory searches do not result in the generic term "spouse" from the Greek. Marital terms are gender-specific, meaning that the only way to "neutralize" the term would be to go back-and-forth between the two. If we consider Mike's argument that verse 11 deals with the "deaconess," then we can draw that Paul has already addressed both sides of the coin and is summarizing the final point under the linguistic masculine form of the only term "deacon." I also believe that it can be considered a concluding statement in this fashion due to the way Paul follows in verse 13, which definitely reads as a close to the topic.
Alongside my other comment I’m extremely grateful for these videos and how grounded they are and I very much enjoy learning and these super deep dives I pray your ministry would be blessed greatly!
Very well done, I’m curious though because it seems like you push obstructively hard against the egalitarian tendency to pluralize some of their examples like the teaching of ministers and deacons. Through out the entire video it feels like when the ambiguity leans more in favor of complimentary views, you allow those ambiguities but when the other way you seem to tend to shut it down much harder. If it happens once in scripture, how does that not allow for that thing can be happening multiple times? It just seems like you are noticeably more critical of those things for one side then the other. Thank you for taking all the time to dig deep. Appreciates you Mike
Hey Mike. Thank you for doing these videos. They help me a lot. Might I suggest you take your time if you can and let them be as long or as short as you need to make sure this topic is covered the way that you do best. I appreciate your work.
I think people reading into the fact that Paul calls people working side by side with him in the gospel means they must have an official position or role, is a sad indication of how institutionalised we are and perhaps how our flesh wants to view things in terms of power. Do we really think Paul would only describe someone as working side by side with him in the gospel if they were of high enough 'authority'?
Excelling observation. I really do wonder if this whole conversation boils down to a misunderstanding of authority as "power over" people instead of the "power to empower others." Power and control instead of responsibility and being the one to act like Jesus first ❤
Believing women do not need a 'platform or position' in order to love and serve God and others. Prayer, giving, befriending/greeting others, hospitality, arranging and providing edifying activities for children, giving the gospel to strangers through personal testimony and leafleting, mentoring young women and girls, sharing and teaching useful and interesting hobbies, writing notes of encouragement, etc., are things that believing women can and should be doing! A lot of such ministry can take place in our own homes and neighborhoods.
Heard someone share this : 2 Timothy 2:12 says “I don’t allow a woman to teach a man”. The king James wrongly translates it in the plural. I don’t allow WOMEN to teach in the church. Wrong. Doesn’t say that. It says I don’t allow A woman to teach a man. The next verse is about Adam and Eve and the marriage relationship. Some translations say I don’t allow a woman to disciple her husband. It’s talk at minimum about one single lady not being able to disciple a single man. That is just wisdom. But more than likely contextually speaking of a marriage relationship and how husbands should not be taught by their wives. The other is in 1 Cor. 14. It tells woman in the plural to stay silent. But the next verses again gives context. It says wait till you get home to ask your husband Questions. You are interrupting the service. Women still sit on one side and men on the other. Woman were never allowed into the synagogue and didn’t know how to act in church. They were interrupting asking questions of their husbands. Paul said be quiet and do that later. The subject is not woman preaching. How do we know? To many verses that say opposite. Sons and Daughters shall prophesy! Phoebe in Romans 14:2 is called a deacon. Janus is a feminine name and is called “great among the apostles” Paul was discipled by a woman and her husband. Her name was listed first and in Greek it means she was more prominent. The gospel was first entrusted to a woman before it was entrusted to the disciples. And there was a church in a woman’s house in second John, an entire book of the Bible is written to how to manage the church that’s in her house. Slam dunk.
Hey Mike, thanks for this series, it has really helped me! I've been unsure on which roles I can help with in the church (as a young woman) and a friend reccomended these videos to me. So, just so you know, we are watching you even here in Norway! It seems like a lot of work to make the videos, but I really appreciate it. And now I'm on to the next one🤩
In the New Covenant roles and gender don't matter. Since Deborah was a Judge over Israel, gender hardly mattered in the Old Covenant. Complementarianism is a false teaching. At its center it supports a two-tiered priesthood based on birthright. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood... -excerpt 1 Peter 2
Amazingly well researched explanation of the roles of various women in the early church. I am still missing the explanation as to why we should see them as models for the church today. Given the total subservience of women in that society, it's surprising there are as many examples of prominent women in the early church. Most of Mike's argument seems to be, this is how it was done then, so this is how it should be done now, 2000 years later. Why? where does God say that? I feel we should look primarily to the example of Jesus. He had nothing at all to say about gender roles, or men having authority over women, but he did model some pretty shocking behaviour for the time of treating women as equal. He went out of his way to honour women, and some of them were his closest friends (though in that society they could not possibly have been one of the 12 apostles). That to me - looking at Jesus, pondering on his behaviour - is more powerful than digging into semantics about whether Phoebe was a deacon. But thank you Mike for all your detailed research, it is fascinating.
I promise to tackle this in detail as the series continues. Though I would push back against the suggestion (which you may or may not intend, but which seems implied by the logic of your comment) that we can disregard something the apostles tell us because Jesus didn’t specifically address it. I’d also say that Jesus gives us more info than many realize on this topic. Thanks for your patience as I slowly work through all the issues and related passages of Scripture.
@@MikeWinger thank you Mike. I look forward to that (the explanation as to why we should regard the example of the early church as eternal rather than cultural in this instance), as it seems to me the crux of the matter. I agree that we should not of course disregard instruction on anything Jesus didn't specifically address. But where there is doubt and disagreement between good Christian scholars, looking at Jesus' behaviour is for me a good reality check/litmus test. Thank you again for delving into this so deeply. I am a big fan of your videos and will certainly continue to follow your arguments to the end of the series.
While examples of Christ are amazing and have Godly endorsement, God Himself has stated His word has the highest authority. Please note, no where does Jesus ever speak or go against God's word, therefore He doesn't give an example that contradicts God's word.
Its actually very clear. Read Timothy and Titus and 1 Corinthians 14. Married man of one wife with character. Not married man lacking character Not single man Not polygamist man Not homosexual man Not a child Not women 1 Corinthians 14:37 if spiritual, recognize this as commandment from God not Paul 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ALL scripture God breathed and profitable for doctrine Can’t make “Paul was single” as argument 2 Timothy 2:2,5 Further instructions for men regarding the aforementioned chapters and run the race lawfully 1 John 5:3 if love God, then keep commandments, and NOT burdensome Not hard to understand, hard to follow Devil cunning that he would deceive the very elect.
@ binmadrid so Jesus was not tough enough to stand up to the society in which he ministered and appoint the women apostles that He presumably would have appointed in other circumstances ? I think it is very precarious to be drawing assumptions like that, insisting that Jesus would have chosen differently in different circumstances. I think in fact that Jesus's choice about the apostles is a powerful corroboration of the teachings of Paul which he says are the Lord's commandment. As for proclaiming Jesus some kind of feminist revolutionary because he was friendly with women, we don't see detailed accounts of major men of God in the Old Testament who were not friendly with women.
Yes!! It's helpful! Almost every church I've ever been a part of has had issues with this topic. There's confusion about what the bible says and even when there is agreement about THAT, there is disagreement about how to practically implement those beliefs. This is such a relevant issue in the church today. Thank you for taking the time to do the research and share it with the rest of us.
I'm grateful for the way you addressed unhelpful attitudes that can sometimes come from the way complementarian theology is taught and I'm looking forward to hearing more. How do we teach this in a way that upholds the intelligence, dignity, agency, and personhood of women? How do we communicate this in a life-giving way that truly honors and values the unique strengths women bring to the community? (Instead of down playing those strengths or putting them in a negative light...) I'm glad you acknowledge that we haven't always done that, because once we confess those things, we can repent and grow.
Well, you don't deny them their roles, Firstly. We are all called to be active in The Body. Women should be teachers if they are Scripturally Literate. They should be Missionaries, serve as Ushers, choir directors, etc.....but a Pastoral Headship models Christ. A very Fatherly role with a form of masculine discernment and confidence.
@@seanchaney3086 maybe you can help me view it in a more charitable light ❤ I don't think I can disagree with you, as much as I want to, about male leadership. Especially after watching Mike's thorough and well done videos. But when you say that "pastoral headship models Christ", I'm left wondering who women are supposed to model? Isn't Christ my example as well? Am I not also made in His image? When you say it's a "fatherly role" I'm left wondering where the motherly roles of the church are discussed and upheld with the same level of reverence and importance. Doesn't the Church need mothers as much as it needs fathers? Womanhood and femininity also reflect aspects of the character and nature of God. We spend so much time making sure we know that men are heads because they reflect the Christ side of the covenant that we sometimes gloss over all the beautiful ways that women uniquely bear God's image as well. And, please hear me, I'm absolutely confident that you did not intend to send those kinds of messages. And I'm sure you honor and value all the women in your life. I'm not making any character judgment or anything. But this is what I mean when I say I want us to think deeper about how we communicate these things. So that we don't accidentally make women feel less important, less valuable, or less liked by God. ❤ how can we change the language we use to ensure the message we send is one of liberation and life found within the boundaries of God's ways?
@@nicoleparsons7630 Well. are you ready for this? Mary is the role model for feminine humility and modesty. As Christ succeeded where Adam failed, Mary represented with Grace, what Eve rebelled against.
@@nicoleparsons7630 And Pastoralship should be FAR removed from self gratification and a superficial idea of self-importance. Christ says He came to Serve. If someone seeks a position out of some kind of need for empowerment, it demeans the very position. Pride is antithetical to any Pastoral position.
@@nicoleparsons7630 I think Sean answered the question at first before the fatherly part. If Women are actively doing all the roles they meat the requirements there won't be an issue on women's unique talents being expressed. I appreciate how you phrased everything in your comment though. It does provoke deeper thought.
Time Stamp Video Map:
0:00 - Intro & Overview
1. 3:00 What egalitarians claims about women leaders
2. 7:18 Was Nympha an overseer?
3. 13:47 Were homeowners overseers?
4. 26:22 Were Euodia and Syntyche leaders?
5. 33:20 What about Priscilla?
6. 59:03 What is an overseer, elder, bishop or pastor?
7. 1:00:58 Were women “elders”?
8. 1:15:16 Were letter carriers approved teachers?
9. 1:23:36 Col. 3: 16 and women teaching
10. 1:26:24 Paranoid masculinity
11. 1:29:24 What exactly is a deacon?
12. 1:36:04 Was Phoebe a deacon?
13. 1:41:04 Egalitarian overreach on deacons.
14. 1:53:16 1 Tim. 3, deacons’ wives or deaconesses?
Thanks Sarah. Excellent job as usual
@@davidfayfield6594 Thank you, sir!
God bless you
Thank you so much!
@mike winger I noticed around 40mins you mentioned you would talk about the "unlearned women in Ephesus" argument, but I am hoping that you have also come across the other view, that women in Ephesus were actually highly educated even above men which is why there was correction.
This has to do with the Cultural significance of the Artemis Cult in Ephesus, the same city where Timothy was Pastor.
This Artemis belief system reverses the Genesis narrative and says that woman was created before man and is above man. Therefore Women were primary teachers and leaders in that cult... Hence the reason in 1 Tim 2 Paul had to correct the way women dressed and the doctrine that was creeping into the church through their teaching, and specifically wrote that women "should not teach as to USURP authority" ...many complimentarians translate that as "have Authority" which is very general and misleading...but that is not the Greek wording here, it is literally Usurp, or take by force, because that is what the women converts were used to doing over men.
He then goes on to set in place and remind specifically of the order of creation by God, and remind them that they are saved because of child birth; meaning Jesus himself as foretold in Genesis. You see, the cult was taught that death in childbirth was a judgement for sins against Artemis, so the women converts to Timothy's church would have been worried about this.
You could absolutely mark this off as conjecture....that's fine. but I think it has deep rooted cultural merit that cannot be ignored.
I think we always have to remember that these letter were written to address questions and issues... it wasn't just random insight God gave him that he decided to share with the church.
I love what you are doing here btw!! we need this deep bible exegesis all around!!
Anyone else blown away that Pastor Mike pretty much does an exhaustive research presentation like every week or two?? My husband and I are so grateful for this series and everything you do to help us all think more biblically about everything. We are praying for you!!
I concur!
Pastor Mike, you can zero in on inconsistencies like any fine apologist and expose them. You ferret out false conclusions in so-called scholarship. I have felt weak in this area, but you have sharpened my biblical whit and spiritual discernment by much attention to your teaching. I aspired always to apply the sword of the Spirit that exposes the truth of a matter-separates between the bone and marrow, truth and half truth, etc. My problem was that I let too many spiritual ‘opinions’ slide by me without applying discernment. You are teaching me daily by example. Thanks for putting in the many hours of study that sharpen us all.
I’m pretty sure he’s prepared and looked into this in dearth for months he’s just been finishing particular issues and writing out the full scrips in the week/s leading up to the video
Amen!
Heard someone share this : 2 Timothy 2:12 says “I don’t allow a woman to teach a man”. The king James wrongly translates it in the plural. I don’t allow WOMEN to teach in the church. Wrong. Doesn’t say that. It says I don’t allow A woman to teach a man. The next verse is about Adam and Eve and the marriage relationship. Some translations say I don’t allow a woman to disciple her husband. It’s talk at minimum about one single lady not being able to disciple a single man. That is just wisdom. But more than likely contextually speaking of a marriage relationship and how husbands should not be taught by their wives.
The other is in 1 Cor. 14. It tells woman in the plural to stay silent. But the next verses again gives context. It says wait till you get home to ask your husband Questions. You are interrupting the service. Women still sit on one side and men on the other. Woman were never allowed into the synagogue and didn’t know how to act in church. They were interrupting asking questions of their husbands. Paul said be quiet and do that later. The subject is not woman preaching.
How do we know? To many verses that say opposite.
Sons and Daughters shall prophesy!
Phoebe in Romans 14:2 is called a deacon.
Janus is a feminine name and is called “great among the apostles”
Paul was discipled by a woman and her husband. Her name was listed first and in Greek it means she was more prominent.
The gospel was first entrusted to a woman before it was entrusted to the disciples.
And there was a church in a woman’s house in second John, an entire book of the Bible is written to how to manage the church that’s in her house.
Slam dunk.
Pastor Mike at the end: ‘I hope this is a blessing to you’ I’ve been a Christian for 25 years and I study the Scriptures daily but the INCREDIBLE amount of work you put into these teachings puts me on warp speed to learn complex topics. You’re helping us dude…a lot. Say thanks to the better half and the 🐈 s for letting us borrow you brain.
Ditto! (only I've been a Christian for 45 yrs). Thank you, brother Mike!
Hey Mike, I'm a pastor on the other side of the world in South Africa. This has been a really big issue for our church and we spent 2 years discussing this as elders in consultation with some interested members in our church. It has been a hugely divisive issue for us, and remains a sensitive one... But I have found your analysis so helpful. It has been deep, insightful and thoroughly biblical and I have loved it so much. Thank you so much for the amount of energy and effort you put into producing (and researching) this. I appreciate it more than I can say!
Thank you for doing this study!!! It’s extremely helpful. I think about the many many hours you spent on this and I’m so grateful to have someone that can devote themselves to this. Having toddlers, I think about how long this study would take me if I just used the small amount of free time I have in a day. Being able to listen to your study while I go about doing dishes and laundry is helping me grow spiritually in a difficult time of life. Thank you.
^ I second EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THIS! This study is helping me so much as I go about tasks with my kiddos. Thank you so very much for all the faithful study you have put into this.
Yes! This is exactly what I do with Mike’s videos almost every night! 100% agree. 💜
Amen sister! You mirrored my thoughts exactly.
I concur. I appreciate the time and commitment to scripture you bring to this discussion.
Exactly the same situation! I listen as I cook, fold, chauffeur and scrub. Soooo blessed by this.
Mike, my 19 year old son shared your videos with us and we now are listening to you as a family. I very very much appreciate the exhaustive and objective research you have done on this topic. It truly has and continues to be a blessing to our family. Thank you for your faithful service to our Lord and know your gifts are being greatly used in the kingdom. Thank YOU!
This series is a huge blessing and help to me. I am a woman with teaching gifts who wants to serve the Lord in accordance with Scripture. I have always leaned complimentarian but want to be able to exercise my gifts to the fullest permissible extent. Soooo appreciate the deep dive. Thank you!!>
You asked if this is helpful - Yes! Immensely. I am an elder that inherited a lot of extra responsibility after our lead pastor left the church to be run by the elders. This question of what role exactly should Women have in ministry has come up multiple times, so this is an invaluable resource.
So very helpful and on-point to what I have been seeking, I feel like this series was almost made exclusively for me.
Keep up the good work and thank you.
Bro. Winger, you need to put these large, amazing series of yours in book form! These videos are so informative and it'd definitely be helpful for ministers and laymen for acquiring biblical understandings of various topics. Books are really cool too (:
THANK YOU! For throwing yourself on the grenade of this topic in order to save the Church from the shrapnel it creates in the Body of Christ! I am not alone in my appreciation for all the work and time necessary for a thorough, balanced, BIBLICAL teaching. God bless you, Pastor Mike!!! 🙏🏼✝️
Thank you for this. When I was born again I “felt” God called me to minister but that doesn’t mean He wanted me to be a pastor. God actually showed me that men has spiritual authority that no woman can replace and that authority is important for protecting the “flock”. Many of my friends and my husband’s “Christian” family push back on me about this but after God working on my heart for 10 years I cannot in good conscious willingly pastor over men as a woman. And it saddens me to know many churches are not upholding the Bible as the ultimate authority over their church because they want to be seen as “nice, open minded, progressive, etc.” which causes many to fall away and hurt the children growing up in the church.
Satan knows exactly what he is doing. When we doubt and try to twist scripture to suit our needs, he takes an inch at a time. I'm sure you are a lovely Christian who ministers where God has put you.
Then Joni Eareckson, Corrie Ten Boom, Lottie Moon and Sojourner Truth were/are ALL WRONG and going against God because they had or do have ministires of preaching, teaching, sharing the gospel with men apart from a male authority in their lives. They are all highly revered and held in high esteem in the Christian world.
Of course you can pastor. What are the microwaves in tire stace on this is incorrect.
Jesus is not suppressing women. Never ever. Not even once. So stop and reconsider who is whispering in your ear...
All I can say is thank you!!! As a female growing up in the church I feel like I’ve been left on my own to sort it all out. Leaders have no trouble telling me what I can or can’t do, but as soon as you ask for the Bible verse or clarification they just hand you some random book. I too have been overly frustrated with peoples random interpretations. Sorting through reasonably ideas, and the crazy. I spent a lot of time studying myself. It’s been super fun watching. You’ve brought out things I’ve missed, as well as tied a few loose ends that I didn’t know what to do with.
Me too!
@@Jaxmusicgal23 i highly suggest both of you check out the writings of Marg Mowzcko and Sheila Rae Grogoire (bare marriage podcasts) --very eye opening about women;s roles
@susanbarackman-artist7670 yes! Mike winger's research doesn't hold a candle to marg mowzco's research.
In the end depend on the Word and The Holy Spirit....does it REALLY take endless research to accept that an Omnipotent God who created the Heavens and the earth finds it difficult to communicate to His children, of ALL cultures and times....He communicates pretty clearly....."You can eat the fruit of every tree EXCEPT...". Same with the role of women....we can do anything and everything in the church EXCEPT have the authority of the elder/pastor (not that it has much these days, people come with itching ears and if its not entertaining enough they find another one), then along comes the whisperer "did God REALLY say....".
I would sincerely LOVE to read/hear an in-depth study of what women ARE called to do....teach the women and children...but it seems women themselves see that as somehow less worthy than replacing men in the pulpit.
"Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the PRIDE of life".
If we are servants of Christ why are we so afraid to serve in the way He prescribes?
Thank you for calling out the fact that women need women in church leadership. Even if we don’t call them pastors or elders - deacons, official Biblical counselors or leaders are needed roles. Fully see the complementarian view in scripture, and also this practical application of study of scripture and the heart of the word.
We are absolutely LOVING this series - over in England!! Ever since you mentioned over the past couple of years that you were going to do this, I have kept checking to see if it had been done. Thrilled to bits to have it now!!! I eagerly await each week (keep checking) for the next one in the series to come on here! Fantastic stuff. We find you easy to trust because you are so thorough, Mike. We love the detail, ‘leaving no stone unturned’. Love that they are such long videos! Can’t thank you enough for the time, integrity and fear of the Lord that you have in doing this. Wow…
Hey Mike! I am incredibly grateful for all this work. I recently went through a break up with a woman who is a Deacon and works closely with a female head-minister. In my love for her I was unquestionably egalitarian but after she treated me rather unfairly it was very tempting for me to become extreme complimentarian in my anger. But this video series appeared at the perfect time and I am now so able to come to the scriptures to seek God's conclusion on this very difficult and personal topic. I have therefore been able to surrender all my feelings to God with so much ease and I am so very thankful that God has done this by working through you. I am greatly at peace. You are an inspiration and a treasured gift in the body of Christ! Enjoy the conference!
I got saved in a church culture that women and men had equal roles. It was a Baptist church. As I studied the Bible I became convicted that this both preacher role wasn't biblical. I asked the women leaders about this. I wind up leaving and going to a Calvary Chapel. After moving I went to a Baptist church with complementary roles. My culture was the equality thing. Only the Bible led me away from that not influence.
Heard someone share this : 2 Timothy 2:12 says “I don’t allow a woman to teach a man”. The king James wrongly translates it in the plural. I don’t allow WOMEN to teach in the church. Wrong. Doesn’t say that. It says I don’t allow A woman to teach a man. The next verse is about Adam and Eve and the marriage relationship. Some translations say I don’t allow a woman to disciple her husband. It’s talk at minimum about one single lady not being able to disciple a single man. That is just wisdom. But more than likely contextually speaking of a marriage relationship and how husbands should not be taught by their wives.
The other is in 1 Cor. 14. It tells woman in the plural to stay silent. But the next verses again gives context. It says wait till you get home to ask your husband Questions. You are interrupting the service. Women still sit on one side and men on the other. Woman were never allowed into the synagogue and didn’t know how to act in church. They were interrupting asking questions of their husbands. Paul said be quiet and do that later. The subject is not woman preaching.
How do we know? To many verses that say opposite.
Sons and Daughters shall prophesy!
Phoebe in Romans 14:2 is called a deacon.
Janus is a feminine name and is called “great among the apostles”
Paul was discipled by a woman and her husband. Her name was listed first and in Greek it means she was more prominent.
The gospel was first entrusted to a woman before it was entrusted to the disciples.
And there was a church in a woman’s house in second John, an entire book of the Bible is written to how to manage the church that’s in her house.
Slam dunk.
@@lbee8247 I did , that's not my comment. In the beginning I stated " heard someone share this"
@@aeolian7556 my apologies
@@aeolian7556false u misinterpreted the whole thing
@@aeolian7556Like, did you even listen to the video 😂
"What's up guys, I'm Mike Winger, and this is my 4th attempt to get hit in the face by a feminist when I go shopping."
Just kidding, I really appreciate your determination to honor God and to show grace as much as possible in everything you do, not to mention your commitment to exhaustive research! Like you, I was kind of hoping to be convinced of egalitarianism, but I'm more and more sure complimentarianism is closer to Biblical teachings.
🤭
Underrated comment
Could someone please write a definition of complimentarianism and egalitarianism in the comments or in the written introduction to the video. Its like learning a new language for me and my brain is in shock trying to keep these two " perspectives" defined in my mind...thank you.
@@terryhuffaker3615 Just remember the prefix's meanings. Egalitarian = egal = EQUAL (in literally everything; value, roles, etc.). Complement = equal in value, COMPLEMENTARY but different roles. Hope that helps a little!
@@terryhuffaker3615 egalitarian= men and women are the same and have same roles, jobs and abilities. Complimentarian = men and women are not the same rather they complement each other in their differences.
They are both saying they are equal in value to God but egalitarian (the equal and same believers) don't believe you can be equal in value if you are different in roles, jobs, duties and stuff.
Both groups believe the other group is misinterpreting scripture.
Your whole series has been a HUGE blessing in my life and my boyfriend and I look forward to the next video in this series every time you say it will be coming up! :) I found your channel about 2 years ago when I was searching for clear teaching against Calvinistic views and had been looking forward to women in leadership/teaching roles ever since you teased it back then. Your work is LARGELY appreciated and respected :)
As a women these are hard truths. As someone who formerly worked in a church and felt my role to be minimized and subjugated by insecure male leadership, I want to read into the Bible things that aren't there. In spite of this you, Pastor Mike, are gentle and affirming in your approach. I wish that the elders in my church had been as kind and understanding in there approach to conflict. With a more life affirming attitude towards women in general many women including myself would not exit from ministry with a wounded spirit. In a perfect sinless world, men in leadership would never need correction and women would feel supprted and become coworkers in the ministry to the glory of God without a power play. We all of us need to care for each other in love in the same sacrificial way within the church body as we profess to do with non believers. So thankful for a Godly man to make difficult concepts understandable while upholding womens importance in the family of God. You are healing my past hurts with your words and the support of Biblical principles with a humane, tender loving and inclusive approach. You have my gratitude. I will carry your teaching forward in my own work in ministry while trying to honor the Biblical role I play in a difficult and sin bound world. God bless.
Pastor Mike, thank you for this series, and all your other videos. You put an incredible amount of work into these videos and it doesn’t go unnoticed. I have learned so much from your teaching. Thank you for your humility, your unbiased approach, and most of all for showing us answers from scripture and in proper context. Love the work you do, but please take time to rest! We don’t want you burning out! Praying for you!
❤❤❤
Yes! Agree 💯💙❤️ praying you have awesome boundaries and can always be refreshed in your calling
Mike, I have studied this topic off and on for 20+ years and have found your treatment on the subject the most thorough, thoughtful, and balanced of all that I have seen. It is as if the two sides of this debate don't really debate, but talk past each other, to prove their own stance rather than stand back and let the Bible speak for itself. This is what I have come to appreciate about your teaching. You let the Bible say what it says and rarely allow your own preconceptions to have the final say. I thank you for your very gracious manner of expressing the various views and your careful handling of Scripture. May God continue to bless you.
I appreciate that you prioritise scripture above tradition, scholarship, and cultural pressure, when considering how we ought to think about these issues.
I don’t think these videos are too long, as complicated topics deserve time to unpack and understand.
This is so extremely helpful for me. I'm a 27 year old woman dedicated to live out what God has in store for me, and using biblical teaching to inform weather or not my heart aligned with God's in what I do. This is very difficult when I don't have the knowledge to go in depth into what the obvious difference between men and women in the bible, means for me today. I want to honour God in obedience, but had no idea how to do so in relation to leadership in the church.
There are 2 views (as far as I know). The correct one and the
incorrect one. So we have: Complementarianism and
Egalitarianism
Personally, the view that explains Deborah, in Judges Chapter 4
is the way I go. (My essay on her is perhaps below, or else I can
post it.)
There is no way l could do all the reading & research you do, your content is a massive blessing & l really appreciate it. Please dont exhaust yourself, l want your ministry to remain sustainable as it has helped me do exactly what you intended...by helping me think more biblically about everything 👍
Hi Pastor Mike. Just wanted to answer your question at the end: yes this is definately helping and blessing my wife and I. We found you a few months ago on youtube. We work together at night (so we particularly love your longer detailed videos) and have many of your videos downloaded via youtube that we listen to with earphones while we work, and we often discuss our thoughts afterwards. You have been helping us greatly to think biblically with many of your series such as the Jesus in the Old Testament series and your Q&As and others videos. God bless you and keep 'em coming.
This is so important for us to recognize our submission to authority. This applies to all men everywhere, including women. To identify and then submit to that Biblical authority should be seen as a blessing and not as oppression. We are all under authority and this is the very appreciation and recognition that should prevent us from making the same mistake as Eve and those at the Tower of Babel. It was pride and pursuit of self that gets us into trouble. Knowing how to be submissive and humble is to be desired and appreciated for wisdom and maturity . This isn’t just about women is it about desiring and pursuing a right relationship with God. We must trust His instruction, His order, His commands and rest in His design, even when told to be submissive. We should appreciate what it is to be submissive and to be in service of someone. How can we appreciate what it is to be a servant or a slave for Christ if we are not willing to submit to others? By not accepting these rolls we seek to elevate ourselves with Christ and this should not be. In our relationship with Christ I should desire to be submissive and honored to serve under authority.
Well said. We should not ever resent being submissive, if we are to be of any help. Let's look at our Lord! He never said a word His father did not approve of and authorize. He even said it" the exact way his father told him to". Amazing love and submission. John 8:16 and better: John 12:49 NIV He told me what to say and HOW to say it. Amazing.
Blessings!
Derek: Well said. Amen.
We must resist the desire to have what WE want, and submit to God's authority.
Bottomline: "If you love Me, obey My commands." As fallen creatures, we often want our own way.
@@claudiaperfetti7694 it is not about being resentment to submission ---it is all the many rules that are man-made and supercede a man or women lfirst folloiwing God's leading over men's leading
A man will not be questioned by his authority--- -the pastor or deacons---- when he says God is leading me to do this and so. but women will be questioned, denigratated, even shamed if they say God is leading them to do something apart from what men think they should do (housewife, mother, etc).
@@susanbarackman-artist7670 this is in response to your second thought about Men vs Women. I do know that sometimes Men take advantage of their leadership positions. However, If what you are being "lead" to do, totally goes against scripture, man or woman, you should seriously reconsider if it is God or your own desires that are calling you to take this action.
Pastor Mike,
I have only watched the first three videos of this series on women in their entirety (not to mention two of your videos on Calvinism) and I must say that I am thoroughly impressed with your extremely fair and balanced treatment of the issue, your respect toward all of the parties involved in the debate, and the fact that you never seem to attack anyone's character or suggest his ulterior motives, but always retain your indignation for the misinterpretation and misapplication of Scripture alone. You are a champion.
I come from a contemporary charismatic background in a bilingual Church where a man pastored half the church in one language and his wife pastored the other half in the other language (albeit under her husband's General oversight). As I spoke both languages, I was involved equally in both congregations. I was involved in visitation and in leading the music. Curiously, at that time, I saw myself in agreement with every doctrine in that church except for the issue of the leadership, the teaching, and the pastoring of a woman over men (including young men). I was a brand-new believer with no particular religious background, no predjudice, I had no one to steer me one way or the other on this issue (other than some mildly-egalitarian preaching on occasion, but not even much), and I had no ax to grind, either. I simply saw one thing in the Bible in my private readings, and another thing in practice, in my own church, when it came to this one issue alone. I got along with everybody and was happy to have this church as a home and knew that everybody at this church cared about me, including the pastor and his wife, but I still could not reconcile what I found in the Bible with what I saw in the church, but, again, only on this one issue.
In fact, I saw it as a relatively small issue, as I do today, but whose violation can produce tremendous consequences throughout the world of Christiandom, by forcing culture onto the church, turning women into men and men into women, robbing boys of their manhood, denying leadership to those who are otherwise biblically qualified, and giving it to those who had promoted themselves based on cultural pressure alone. Of course, another consequence is that contemporary Bible teaching is now tainted throughout the world, with emotion based on psychology rather than on Scripture, and, all for the simple reason that we now have leaders in the pulpit with highly emotional rather than rational inclinations, that stem from their very physical nature.
Coming from a person who had egalitarian inclinations at the onset of the discussion, you make arguments that are particularly convincing.
In fact, I appreciate the fact that you leave the inconclusive passages inconclusive, offer possible explanations, and leave it at that. What else can a reasonable person do?
It is helpful to remember that whenever Christian people find themselves joining sides on the issue of feminism, with politicians and cultural icons who support other issues that Christians do not even agree with (such as abortion, socialism, and homosexuality), the very fact that they are strange bedfellows, in itself, should make it clear from the onset, that's something is wrong, and that the issue is not necessarily whether this handful of Bible passages can be interpreted one way or another, but rather that there may be an underlying spiritual issue in the lives of these proponents, that needs to be resolved, before they can see clearly on this issue.
In the case of a Christian woman writing a book on Church leadership, for example, but who was often sexually abused as a child, or physically beaten by her father countless times, or who grew up with a single mother that always spoke disparagingly of the girl's father, or of men in general, or a woman who was always told since her childhood, by her parents, since the day she was born, that her parents had always wanted a boy instead of a girl, how can she be expected to have a completely unbiased biblical worldview, untainted by increasingly-feminist secular news and culture, when she writes her book on the subject of Biblical leadership?
And why was she sitting at her computer anyway, writing this book, while other members of her church were out sharing the gospel from house to house, saving people from eternal damnation, or teaching the Bible to children in the streets, or taking part in missions trips to Haiti and other poor countries, or discipling teenage girls in broken homes who had been the victims of sexual abuse themselves? Was she perhaps more concerned with getting back at God for the way that she was treated, by teaching hundreds of her readers to live lifestyles that contradict God's clear teaching?
Pastor Mike, please take courage and continue the good work that you are doing, and don't let the back-sliders wear you down.
Thanks so much Mike. It is indeed a blessing - especially the Greek words & how they get translated. I have listened to lots of your youtube videos but today I am moved to pray for you as you continue with this study as I think it is incredibly important as many of us genuinely "seek ye first the kingdom of God" and we want to be living out God's will in our lives & in our church as part of the body. May God bless you.
May I share the importance of the fourth commandment KJV , that Jesus created and kept, even after His resurrection.
My wife and I are watching these as dinner dates. It amused me that the reason for our disrupted dinner date schedule is that you are going to be involved in a marriage conference. We greatly appreciate your efforts to find what the Bible actually says about topics and your willingness to say when you think things are ambiguous. We also appreciate that you put so much time and effort into diving deep in these videos (even if we wish that didn't prevent you from posting them every week).
Has this been a blessing to our family? Yes! It’s been a blessing for my husband and I as we carefully analyze things we’ve been taught and examples we’ve seen against the scriptures and how you expound on them. Sometimes it takes something being pointed out or clarified in order to notice it, and your zeal to teach only what the Bible really says is what keeps us coming back. Beyond that, I truly appreciate your influence on our children as they get to hear someone besides us lecture about the importance of sticking to scripture. Your videos are often a conversation piece at our dinner table. Thank you!!
As a mama of a toddler and a newborn, I am so grateful for this. You just plain don't have the reading time you used to. Thank you so much. This has been a great big question mark for so long for me.
The past 4 teaching on women in ministry have been so helpful and eye opening! Thank you so much for your diligent study. Your sisters in Christ thank you, you have no idea how much we need this!
Mike is not faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is not trinity of persons. That doctrine of devils.
Watching your videos that are concerning women has truly changed my attitude and approach to my husband and my role as a Christian wife and my role in the church. I really had to repent, but oh it so freeing once you get the Truth! Thank you for taking all the time and energy to make the videos and being bold and having the courage to stand in the light among the darkness of false teachings. May God bless you ABUNDANTLY!!!
Thanks, Brother Mike. I left my parent's church 19 years ago for different reasons but my mom and two of my sisters preached as well as several other women. I haven't seen the positives of women preachers and pastors. Now I know that it's because of disobedience to Scripture and it's a slippery slope that brings several other railroad cars with it. Sadly we are seeing the fruit of this in the SBC. Thanks again for being obedient.
No, it was because you were unteachable.
@@karenwhitney4826 Prophetess?
Can you explain more about not seeing the positives? What happened that would make you assume it was because women did some teaching?
@@rebeccacustis8825 Actually that wasn't the only issue. The men including myself were not qualified either. The issue is doctrine. When you ignore and deny Scripture you open up the door to personal revelations which is dangerous. It's par for the core as far as cults go. They are no longer building on the foundation left to us by Christ and the Apostles of Christ.
I have been very blessed by how in depth this study has been and it confirms my complimentarian view.
Thank you Mike for doing this series! This topic has always weighed heavy on my heart and very few people are willing to do so much hard work to help with this issue. Gender is pretty evidently one the most difficult and important debates in the modern world, so many struggle with it. We need more empathetic, considerate, careful, and scholarly discussions like this! Men and women being different was meant to be a blessing, let's not allow it to be a curse! :)
Nicely phrased! 👍
Thank you for the work you put in. Helps us pastors. This whole series will go down as the go-to source for this topic.
Thanks for this teaching. I am "worship pastor" at my church and your conclusion does help me to know that I am really more of a deacon. It assures me that the role of what I am doing is not sinful, but perhaps what the church labels it is not clear. It's a good conversation to have. Thanks for all your research!
Oh yeah, I think most roles in the church with different fancy names are types of deacons, haha.
Mostly it's administering different individual skills or giftings for the church as far as I can tell.
Pastor Mike, first of all, wow, your studies are a huge blessing and I really appreciate all the hard work you put into every teaching you bring to us. You are definitely gifted by the Holy Spirit to do the ministry He has given you. I often think about so many of the discussions that cause so much separation and dissention in the Body of Christ, and I'm sure you've thought of these as well, but I had to mention my take on it. I believe there is much irony in the fact that our Father certainly knew all the questions and "discussions" His children would have over so many secondary issues in His Word, and yet He still left some room for those discussions, by the way His Word was inspired...which leads us to dig deeper and deeper into His Word, to ask, seek, and knock for those answers. I believe as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." The Lord will make it all clear in that moment...till then, we'll keep digging deeper and deeper...The Lord bless you brother!!❤🔥🙏❤🔥
Mike this has helped me tremendously. I heard a sermon about how women should stay home and be silent in church. I was upset. I work and want to be an active member of my church but I was hesitant. I didn't want to go against God's Word.
stay home? if that was the case then they wd never go to church, either! go to church, sing in the choir, go teach kids sunday school, and join the womens groups.
Your commitment to biblical thinking, regardless of whether or not you agree with it prior to your research is inspiring. It is incredibly difficult to maintain a consistent way of thinking and apply it with integrity. In regards to this series, I love it. I have been wrestling through some of these issues for some time and I really appreciate your careful and logical review of the arguments, evidence and biblical guidance. Thank you for your ministry.
Great in-depth teaching. Most church leaders of all denominations 'bypass' the Bible today and go on feelings or some new revelation. However, remember The Word is The Word, regardless of how we philosophize or think or feel, His Word lasts forever and is immovable. Point. Period. Paragraph
This series has been such a blessing to me so far and I can’t wait until the rest of the videos are released! I really appreciate your in-depth Scripture-based approach to tackling the huge and often divisive subject of women in ministry. I think it’s crucial that we go to the Bible as our primary source of knowledge on these matters and apply a critical thinking lens to other scholarly sources that have been produced. The amount of time and research you’ve put into studying this topic is evident and I’m so glad that you present both sides of the argument by comparing and contrasting common claims to the Bible. The transparency is so needed!
As a woman who has felt called to start a women’s ministry and to take on a greater leadership role with the youth at my local church, I had really struggled with whether this was acceptable to God based on my gender and I never felt I got a clear answer from pastors on the subject. Thank you for the much-needed clarity you’ve been providing through this series! God bless you, Pastor Mike!
Thank you Pastor Mike you were on Fire 🔥 Today! I really appreciate your time and thorough study on this. As a woman in ministry this has always plagued me.
Mike- Thank you so much for your faithfulness brother, your relentless research is so beneficial to the Body of Christ. May the Lord bless and keep you and continue to guide you on a straight path. I doubt I'll ever bump into you on earth but I look forward to worshiping the Lord together one day 🙏
In this thoughtful, careful presentation, (much appreciated) you summarize a vast amount of background study, and some things necessarily don't get included due to time constraints. If you could, please comment on the requirement for deacons to be husbands of one wife, and how this might bear on the translation of the word for wife/woman. 1 Timothy 3:12 says (ESV) "Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well."
This study has echoed my own understanding of the pertinent scripture which I've pondered over several decades.I like the thoroughness of Mike's approach
Mike, thank you so much for this series. It is very helpful. I am an Elder in my local church and have wanted to be able to work this through thoughtfully and biblically and am finding this to be an answer to prayer. I have also been grateful for the other content that you've posted on other topics - e.g. marriage and divorce. Go well at the conference and look forward, in God's goodness, to the next one when you are able to put it out. Have a great Easter time too. Serving together!
What is alligarian camp
Thank you, Mike, for your very careful explanations. I greatly appreciate the work and time you put into this teaching. As a woman who has always felt like a teacher, and much more so after being saved, I've really struggled with my seeming contradictory belief that only men should be pastoring. It's an unpopular view for women to have, but I never saw any support for women pastors in the Word. Sometimes I wish these things were not true...it seems it would be so much easier to find my role. But our job is not to do what's easy or popular, but rather to do as God instructs. The egalitarian view is impossible to accept, and I can finally lay the issue to rest in my mind. If we look at the Word in its context, and accept that we can find God's will in it even if it disagrees with our preferences, we have a better chance of knowing truth rather than the error that pleases us. May you be richly blessed, and continue to help us rightly divide the Word of Truth.
You had my laughing today...
As soon as you said there was one Translation, I was saying out loud that it has to be the Passion Transformation!!!
The work you are doing on this is extremely helpful, even to those of us that might disagree ever so slightly. It is an honest approach, and rebuking footnotes that support nothing helps clear the clutter.
As a lay elder who works full time in another industry, I'm so thankful for Mike's work, especially in topics like this. I frequently reference his videos as I'm preparing lessons, sermons, or simply recommending content to members of my church who want to learn more about various topics. I so appreciate his thoroughness in study and explanations, even in the very rare instances when I disagree.
Love you teaching us to think...think biblically... and to actually read...just if people just read well, so many of the questions are answered. I think often people just don't want to know. Thank you Pastor Mike...I am looking so forward to Hebrews as well...
THANK YOU for this series! I (Rachel) have largely ignored some of these scriptures that quite honestly bothered me but am now hungry to dig deep. Thank you for all your time and devotion to study the Word of God. Blessings. 💞🙏🏼
Thanks Mike again for all your work on this. I would recommend these videos to anyone - I think you've done a fantastic job of giving a balanced view of the arguments. This video has challenged some ideas I had heard from scholars (and accepted because I'm not a scholar - they get paid to do this research this stuff in detail). It's very helpful (particularly on elders, this has probably changed my thinking). I think this is a very helpful study - and importantly you are doing it in a manner which is gracious and loving to those you disagree with.
We appreciate every minute you dedicated to helping us understand!
I am studying to be a Chaplin but recently put it on hold because I needed to know the facts about this topic. It wasn’t until I saw your first video on this topic. As a woman who follows Jewish/Christian teachings (Jews for Jesus) I want to be a servant I have always been but I want to do it right. So THANK YOU!!!
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Reply for it if desired.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
That is how a woman could judge
men of their sins, including homicide.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
I was raised in a stricter complimentarian church background (with some ppl going super strict), but never being told why. Now, cue me just wanting to know what's biblical and true, this video was very intriguing and gave me a lot to think about. Thank you for your careful research, Pastor Mike!
Pastor Mike, I wanted to thank you deeply for your work and faithfulness in bringing this in-depth study of women’s roles in the Bible. It has been so helpful for me personally. I serve as a Worship Leader and Deaconess in my church and have often wrestled with these issues. Our church’s views are very similar to your own conclusions, so far, but I have often wrestled myself with different passages of scripture because more than anything, I want to honor God through honoring and obeying His Word. This series has brought me to tears at a few point at the goodness of God. Thank you so much for digging deeply into this topic and thank you to your family who shared your time so you could prepare it. Praying for your ministry and greatly looking forward to the rest of this series. Thank you! Amanda
I’m greatful for your careful teachings of these subjects! I am starting to feel that frustration you voiced now when I am evaluating anyone making claims and supporting them with scripture. It is definitely a process to be learned and you’re helping so many of us learn that. God bless you and your ministry; people, use your resources to support this!
Yes this is helping me. One year later. So glad you did this series. I wasn't overly interested in the actual topic but it's helping me think bionically about everything. I'm complimentaryan but didn't really know what that was till listening to you. I'm learning lots of new words.
This is the first time I heard that some church traditions would not allow women to teach theology. No wonder many women write or teach mainly warm fuzzy material that appeals to the emotions only. 🤔 This is the main reason I avoid Christian women writers and women’s retreats. I think it’s important for women to learn theology and then TEACH it to others, men and women, because Christians are supposed to think about our faith.
Yep, also the reason I avoid women's Bible studies too. I just want to study the Bible. That's why I am at a Bible study, underscore Bible.
Women should learn theology and teach it to kids, their family, to women. The Bible doesn't ban women teaching theology globally, just not to men in a church setting, a worship service.
@@christophertaylor9100
Thank You . Someone gets it.
There are many critically thinking, intelligent, theologically knowledgeable women who write great books and may even have podcasts. I, too, was never attracted to women's Bible studies or retreats. I love apologetics. But I understand as a Christian I am to humble myself before the word of God. I can learn and teach in many settings but just not in a formalized church setting that includes men. Pleasing the Lord is above all. I have no issue submitting to this. None. 🙌
@@laurieomura7188
Amen sister God Bless your humility and wisdom. In my private time I have learned from women writers, podcasts And my wife gives me good second opinion daily. The pulpit is not just for any random guy either. But a Godly married man.
One way I teach the terminology of Bishop, Pastor, Elder is Bishop=Office, Pastor=Activity/Task/ (Shepherding), Elder=Person (type). By the way, brother you did an outstanding, bang up job on this. Thanks for putting in the work and making this available. Good job. The Lord will honor it.
The church I used to attend would not even let woman teach Sunday school with children. A woman could not even help her husband teach Sunday school.
The woman in this church are not even allowed to pray out loud during the service when the men pray. The woman were to have their heads covered & remain silent throughout the whole service.
This was my first church after I became a born again Christian.
I was a teacher & loved kids but wasn’t allowed to use my gift in Sunday School.
I felt so depressed & overcome there was a real weight that just came upon me & I lost my joy.
Thank you Pastor Mike for such thorough in-depth teaching of the word.
Sister in Christ, go to a church where you are allowed to use your gifts for the glory of God don’t let any man or woman steal your shine because they’re insecure or jealous. Complementarianim is not of God it invokes pride in men and stifles women in their God given gifts.
Did you try showing them 1 Corinthians 11 about how women could pray or prophecy with their heads covered? You obviously wouldn’t prophecy silently, or it would be pointless, so why wouldn’t praying out loud also be permissible?
@@yvettelordschild6616it is pride in women that would think they no better than God and refuse to submit to him in regards to how he sets up leadership in the church. You may not like it but to be in rebellion is sin just as with anything else we don’t like that the lord puts in place.
@@Papaspronator That might be true for you, but I have a personal relationship with God through Christ and you don’t know my story and I don’t know yours. From your perspective it looks like I’m rebellious but in my perspective I’m right in line with what God wants for me for my life. So in conclusion you worry about yourself and I will worry about me.
@@yvettelordschild6616 Gods word is the authority. It is true for all people. If your relationship you think you have with God is calling you to something that contradicts scripture then you should ignore it. That is not the voice of God.
And I am not an atheist but even if I was and I was telling you to follow the Bible then I would still be correct regardless.
I am SO very thankful for your in-depth study/teaching on this subject. My church is beginning to seem to waver on this very subject, and your material is very useful and helpful to me in knowing what the Word says about this issue. Thank you!
stacy
I post on these matters, as an egalitarian.
Reply if desired.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood...
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
A 2-tiered priesthood doesn't exist, but this is what
Complementarianism supports. It is a false teaching.
It uses double-talk by telling women they are equal to
men, yet states that women can't teach men. It states
that a group of Christian women can not be a church
under any circumstances, because there would be no
elders.
Thank you for doing the work to go through these ideas carefully.
I grew up in a hyper patriarchal church where many of the men did not see me as a real person- just a breeder and a temptress to be wary of. Videos like this help me reclaim my humanity without reacting to the non sense I was taught.
And for those of us who grew up like this, you aren’t just talking about gender. For us, you are showing God’s goodness.
It’s appreciated.
I don't believe a church with born again believers would treat you this way. Are you sure you are not exaggerating? What made you feel this way? I have heard a few christian women saying that being a mother and a wife is not enough for them, and even treat those two blessings with contempt. I hope you don't agree with them. You girls have one of the most important missions in the church. Without a good mother and a good wife the demons would get into your family and sweep everything away in an instant.
@@JesusProtects nope. Not exaggerating. Thanks. Is there a reason you are setting yourself up as my teacher? First questioning my honesty and then teaching me like I’m 10? Assuming all kinds of things I never said?
And then lecturing me on them?
I’m seriously asking.
and mike wants all churches to go back to that. He hates the less patriarchal views much more then those his teachings are designed to protect from consequences when they abuse people
@@JesusProtects you are a monster
This content is most definitely helping me, and I imagine many others. I spent several years as the wife of a named elder at our previous church where the head pastor manipulated both my husband and me and countless others. He spoke in a very degrading manner to me about my role as an elder and campus pastor's wife and long story short I have been reeling from that for the past couple of years. We have since moved to another state and with that a new church and I have been praying and seeking God about how to use my gifts in ways that honor Him. When you spoke about paranoid masculinity in this video, I cried. You mentioned that women who have something important to say will shrink back because they aren't sure if they are allowed to speak up. This has been my experience for the past few years because of what I was repeatedly told about what I was "allowed" to do in the body of Christ and how I needed to be quiet and let the Lord speak to my husband.
Your first video cautioning people not to let their pain and past experiences cloud how they read scripture was also a good reminder for me and made me that much more excited to really dive into this series with fresh eyes and a heart seeking to glorify God.
All of that to say - this content has been extremely helpful and I am looking forward to watching the rest!
I caught the middle of this so I gotta go back and give it a listen. I'm hoping you see this, A BIG THANK YOU for your extensive research. Anything that has anything to do with a pridefilled spirit, I personally refuse. But your take, and humble spirit, I greatly appreciate and hold high. Thanks!
I share your frustration over the lack of biblical thinking regarding women in ministry. I am now 66 yrs. old and have yet to hear any teaching on this topic within the church. In my late twenties I was asked to teach. When I asked the Lord what topic he wanted me to pursue, nothing came to mind. However I did come across passages about women teaching so I asked the Lord to show me His truth even though I had come from a different mindset. I spent 3 months studying the scriptures alone. At the end, my mind was changed. It's been frustrating off and on over the years to see the pervasive egalitarian thinking taking root in this particular area. It's been challenging for me. I questioned my conviction many times. I recently read a book to see if I had missed something. Though I looked carefully, there were no biblical proof texts. I went and talked to the elders of my church with my husband because I felt strongly that I should at least share my heart and what I understood. They listened though they feel differently. So, thank you for the time you spent on this in-depth study and sharing it. I hope the church in general will take a serious note and be blessed by it.
I have always been complimentarian, just based on upbringing and my own study of scripture. I went to Asbury Theological Seminary (which I would highly recommend). I was always unconvinced by the egalitarian arguments presented (Dr. Keener and Dr Witherington for example), but wanted to really do a detailed study to see where I came down. This series has been immensely helpful in really putting words and cohesion to many of my issues with the egalitarian arguments.
I also received a great formation and had a good time at Asbury yet remained complementarian.
I've watched many of your videos with intent to watch them all. I appreciate all of the time that it takes for you to compile all of the data for an average 2 hour video. I pray for conviction when I watch or listen to any Bible teacher/Pastor etc and I have never been convicted by anything I've heard you say. Sometimes I have even finished your thought. I believe that The Lord is with you 💯. God bless and keep spreading the Good News 🙏.
Hi Pastor Mike,
Thank you so much for doing this series and truly taking scripture at its word and guiding us in seeing the truth of God’s intended roles! I did have a question about 1 Tim 3:12: “Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.” For overseers, you use this similar wording (V. 2,4) as grounds for overseers being masculine-one wife and managing households and children-yet the verse was not discussed when talking about deacons, and I think this verse complicates the idea that a woman could be a deacon. I completely understand your reasoning behind woman deacons, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this verse being included in deacon qualifications as well as overseer qualifications.
Thank you so much for your ministry and faithful stewardship of the Word of God!
Agree. I have really appreciated your thorough assessment in this series so far but am curious why this was left out of your table as a deacon qualification. Appreciate all your work!
You say you hope it is a blessing. yes! As many others have testified it is, very much appreciated.It’s like having a good meal when you’ve been eating junk food.I’ve spent many years wanting to understand these things. I’ve been cautious about studying because things get crazy and you know it’s not scriptural, you can ditch a lot of books. I’ve looked to women in the church whom I’m close to for advice but it’s encouraging to have a man thoroughly researching and I get to tag along. This has been greatly needed. Thank you
Hi Mike, I hope you see this. It's long, but please bear with me! First of all, thank you so much for this careful and thoughtful study, it's been informative and helpful for me and I'm sure it will be for countless others for years to come. It is an excellent and accessible resource that is much needed. However, I have two issues with this video:
1) I am glad that you brought up the difference between an elder (aka bishop, presbyter, overseer) in the Biblical sense and a pastor in the modern sense, but there *is* a Biblical sense of the word pastor that I wish you would have gotten into. I don't agree that we ought to use the term "pastor" to describe elders today, because that isn't how it was intended in the Biblical sense. I think calling elders "pastors" will only breed further confusion. As I understand it, Biblical pastoring is described in the same way as praying, prophesying, evangelizing, singing, etc., meaning that (again, in the Biblical sense), it's a job/task/role that virtually anyone can do, namely, it does not require appointment or recognition to do it, nor are there restrictions or qualifications on it-it is something to be done as led by the Holy Spirit, as any other Spiritual gift. As you may know, the word means "shepherd," and it is mainly used of Jesus to describe the way he cared for others. Granted, shepherding *is* something Paul expects (or at least exhorts) elders to do, but I do not believe shepherding (Biblical pastoring) is limited to elders.
My opinion is that the modern use of the word pastor is unfortunate, because it is too detached from the original meaning for us to be using the same word. It causes confusion. I'm not sure whether we should return to the original use of the terms and coin new terms for the positions we have today, but I think it's very important for every believer to know first that a modern pastor ≠ a Biblical pastor, and a modern elder ≠ a Biblical elder, and second to know what the Biblical sense of the words actually mean.
2) I know you promised to make a stronger case in your next video, but it seems to me that your argument that elders must be male in *this* video is based on the fact that the description of elders in 1 Tim 3 uses masculine terms. To me, this is a weak argument, because it is not unusual for masculine terms to be used to describe both men and women. For example, not to equivocate, but to cover both senses of the word "masculine," on the grammatical level, ἄνθρωπος is a grammatically masculine word that refers to men and women. More importantly, regarding the masculine pronouns, even today we will use the word "he" when we mean someone either male or female (though that is increasingly rare). For example, I might say "a competent musician can tell you his favorite scale," even though not all musicians are male, nor would I be suggesting that by using the word "he." An expert on koine Greek and first century Greek culture could tell us if that is a fair way to interpret Paul's writing in this passage (and likewise in Titus 1). I would not go as far as to say the terms are gender-neutral-I agree that they are masculine-but I would say that the gender is incidental, not essential.
Secondly, we know that we cannot take 1 Tim 3 to be a list of strict requirements, because in that case all elders and deacons must be both married and have children. Yet, Paul calls himself an elder, and is neither married nor has children. This means that 1 Tim 3 must be outlining guiding principles for appointed roles, which are based on godly character. We cannot say based on this passage alone that elders *must be* male without also saying that they *must be* married, otherwise we are not being fair with the text.
Thank you, we'll said
I think 1 Tim. 3 uses the phrase "man of one woman" to require monogamy, not to require marriage, so an unmarried man who does not commit adultery would still be eligible. And the reference to children means "if he has children, they must be well behaved". Reading these as commands to have wives and children is a rather contorted understanding IMO.
"is based on the fact that the description of elders in 1 Tim 3 uses masculine terms."
Well, also saying "of one wife" is important (yes we hold to the idea that it doesn't strictly mean they must be married, but it doesn't say "or a woman of one man"), and then they discuss the aspect of deacons, too. If the masculine terminology was gender-neutral in this case, they'd have to clarify because a woman cannot be "of one wife." The implication here is pretty obvious its not gender-neutral but just male specific.
Deacons describe both men and women separately. Sometimes its translated "deacon's wives" but I think Mike makes a good case to indicate it just means female deacons, of which Phoebe was one. So the implication is here that deacons are specifically stated to be allowed to be women while there is no such suggestion for elders.
Elders/overseers also have authority in the church, but women "shall not have authority over a man" (or perhaps husband) at least in a church context, which furthers the connection that elders/overseers must be men.
I do agree with the idea that perhaps we shouldn't use the term "pastor" at all and stick to the term "elder" or "overseer" instead, but its unlikely that will stick in the modern context. We recognize pastors as the leaders of the church, effectively making pastors the modern-day term for elder.
@@jrconway3 I appreciate the thoughtful reply, thank you.
1) “we hold to the idea that it doesn't strictly mean they must be married”
The way I see it, if we’re not going to regard the phrase, “of one woman” as a strict requirement for marriage, then we can’t also use it as the basis of a strict requirement for male eldership. I don’t see how we can have it can’t have it both ways.
2) ”If the masculine terminology was gender-neutral in this case, they'd have to clarify because a woman cannot be "of one wife."
Well, more importantly, a woman cannot be male. So by that logic, Paul would also have to clarify that an elder could be a woman by saying something like, “he or she.” My point again being that the phrase, “of one wife” is not sufficient to build that case off of. Masculine terminology does not necessarily mean it is intended to refer only to males (see my prior example). It /can/ mean that, but we already have context clearly showing this description of elders and deacons is not a list of strict requirements, so therefore we cannot just assume that masculinity is intended to be a requirement when marriage and parenting is not.
3) “The implication is here that deacons are specifically stated to be allowed to be women while there is no such suggestion for elders.”
I think this is a sound argument and probably the strongest if its true that “women” means “women deacons” and not “deacons’ wives”. Not strong enough to /ban/ women from eldership in my opinion, but enough to make the case that Paul probably did not envision female elders. That’s certainly worth considering.
4) “women ‘shall not have authority over a man’ (or perhaps husband) … which furthers the connection that elders/overseers must be men.”
Whether this verse refers to men in general or husbands actually does determine whether this has relevance to the issue of elders. If it refers to husbands, I don’t think it is relevant, because the issue in question is God’s design for family. If it’s regarding men in general (which I am of the opinion that it is not), then it would weigh into the discussion of eldership.
5) “We recognize pastors as the leaders of the church, effectively making pastors the modern-day term for elder.”
I’m still developing my understanding on the subject, so do feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. However, this idea exemplifies what is in my opinion a ubiquitous and drastically under-recognized departure from the original concept of eldership, to the peril of the Church.
I don’t believe the intended role (God’s design) for eldership exists as intended in a significant capacity today. To use the body analogy, an elder is /not/ the brains of the Body, organizing and directing normal operations-The “laypeople” are supposed to be able to handle that. The elder is the immune system of the Body. That’s not to say they don’t have authority-they certainly do. Their purpose, though, is to combat false doctrine and protect the flock from the roots of sin, distraction, and falling away-To guard against wolves as a shepherd does, hence Peter’s exhortation to “shepherd the flock of God.”
Modern pastors wear many hats, probably too many, and we all expect this. I think it’s often draining to them and potentially hazardous to the Church, mainly because it mitigates the protective role of the elder by not having people dedicated to only that.
While I have more to say, I’ll leave it at that for now. I think this is an issue that warrants a study of its own.
Awesome job with this. I am reminded of the wife of an appointed elder being in my opinion the best teacher in a rotating group of teachers of an adult sunday school. She didnt assume an authority over us yet I preferred her teaching talents over all the other teachers which were men.
Thanks for sharing this Mike. I've seen extremes in the body of Christ where people are obviously proof texting on one side and on the other, I have heard pastors say that Churches that have women in leadership are not true churches.
This issue has been something I've been wrestling with. The church I attend has a woman lead pastor and other women pastors. What I've noticed is that she is one of the most competent and one of the best role models of any pastor I've been under. The church that I'm attending has a strong value towards scripture and the gospel with a high value on the mission of Christ. On the other hand I've seen and been involved in a variety of local churches that have male leadership but far less spiritually mature and capable of leading. While I still struggle with the female leadership issue, I still see so much good in the church that my family and I are still serving in the church. So then what is the right course of action here? Since the church was founded by our pastor, I strongly doubt that will change any time soon. What do you suggest?
Unless you become heavily convicted about attending the church, I would say to continue to be faithful to the ministry
@@quantaviousjenkins7667 thanks for sharing that. I was considering that until I was hearing that having women in pastoral roles was in clear rebellion to God and you were sinning against God. I also heard heard alot of other things against women leadership that I don’t need to repeat. So I heard that not only was it a sin for women to be in any form of leadership but if you subjected yourself to their leadership in any way (including listening to them on social media) you were sinning against God as well. It’s good to hear an overall clear and in depth teaching on the subject.
@@ambientlight3876 yea that would be incorrect. What matters most is that Christ is preached. Sure, it may not be in the best and proper format, but Christ is still preached and God is glorified
I'm an elders wife and leader in our local church and the ladies in our body are very divided on these issues and this has been so helpful understanding all the points of view. I feel pretty much the same way you do according to my own study. The most bizarre part is that the men don't have any issues in this area. Thank you so much for this. 😀
Well of course the men have no problem with this kind of teaching. Very few male egos would turn down an offer of power. Even completely Christian, otherwise humble males are very willing usually to usurp authority over a female. At least that's been my experience. And I'm nearly 60 yrs old, been in conservative churches my entire life.
@@maryellen6153 I mean the men in our body have no issue with women leading them or teaching them. If the woman is wise and shows integrity then they are respected as a woman who will speak life into a situation. I see where you're coming from though.
@@RayBekk oh, I understand now what you meant!
I really think it's a matter of teaching, conditioning and traditions. And humility.
@@maryellen6153 so true
You ask if all of this is helpful? Yes! I have never come upon this detailed of teaching on the subject and have always felt less than confident in discussing it. This is so helpful, and I watch and think about all of it, so don't think of it as being "too long."
I taught critical thinking classes (among others) to college students for many years, and the primary questions I taught my students to ask are these: Is this true? And how do we know? or
How can we find out? More than one student expressed how thinking this way even about simple things like articles, videos, commercials, studies, statistics, etc. was life-changing for them. How much more life-changing for many to learn to ask these questions and refer back to the full teaching of Scripture as our source of evidence. You are teaching this skill well. Fabulous!
I share your frustration about the many who never look up the footnotes, read the actual Scriptures, or question the "experts." Many leaders in the church say not to read this Christian book or that Christian book or to consider the teachings of this Christian teacher or that Christian teacher. Instead, I say--read the book--with your Bible by your side. Look up every passage, and read the full chapter (or more) if needed, to get the context. Pay attention to how Scripture is being used. Choose the straight-forward reading over intellectual gymnastics. Make prayer the foundation of your study, and go for wise counsel if you are every confused, but don't look to wise counsel to tell you what to believe. Keep going back to Scripture as the authoritative source.
Thank you for sharing your study and conclusions and taking people back to Scripture as the final authority. You are doing a very good work.
It has been very helpful and I thank you so much for the time and energy you’re putting into this study. I hope that at the end you’ll consider bringing your egalitarian scholar friend on to discuss some of the feedback he has on your presentation of this material. Thanks for all that you do.
I have been watching this series with my husband and it has provoked some serious, thoughtful conversation! I so appreciate the way you emphasize that what women say within the church can be valuable and fruitful, that women are described as wise, and are at times listened to by men in the Bible.
I think society and Christian culture have sometimes presented through their application of their beliefs/theology that authority=value. So saying that “equal in value, different in role” statement doesn’t always end up meaning much. However, the Bible helps us with that too - when Jesus’s disciples argued about who was greatest among them He pointed to a child and said becoming like children, being least, being servant-minded is central to being a good leader.
I loved your thoughts on how the Church neglects teaching around the elderly!! I think lack of commitment to a particular church means we don’t get to know each other well enough to build relationships where older men/women are teaching the younger or where the younger are supporting/taking care of the older.
I am interested to hear how you define the role of elder through the Scriptures. I have encountered a lot of confusion around what I should expect from my Elders as a woman who is unable to fill that role in my Church. Blessings on you, brother, for dealing carefully with the word of God on this topic and caring about women like me who want to serve God, and want it to be pleasing and acceptable to Him.
Thank you for another addition to this excellent study series!
This IS helpful and much needed for us all in the Church. Thank you Mike!
From what I'm learning about these two views, I would say I certainly fall more in the complimentarian standing.
And I've noticed that it seems the egalitarian view tends to heavily reach and scavenge for scripture and translations and commentary that will support its presumptions of the scripture, meanwhile the complimentarian view tends to try too staunchly to avoid women having authority over men to the point that it tends to bar women from even properly equal roles and activity in the Church.
It's nuanced but it seems that all of these topics around women in ministry call for us to think biblically and really consider what the text is actually saying, and to seek for the right working unity and harmony and submission to one another in the right roles and standings that are healthy for the church to operate as a unified family above all else.
We recently joined a Wesleyan church and my only hang up prior to joining is that I'm not 100% "sold" on women pastors. Women can be ordained pastors in the Wesleyan church. I am still struggling with this, but we love our Pastor and the church body, so I will simply serve to the best of my ability Lord willing. That said, over the past year we as a family experienced horribly painful church hurt at the church we left. I, we, used the Matthew 18 approach to dealing with the sin, the lies being fed to us by the senior pastor and worship leader. But, they refused to repent or even accept Biblical correction, I studied and wrote page after page explaining what the Bible states about what their actions should be, but it accomplished little to nothing. In THAT situation, I clearly was a woman who was leading with Scripture, who was using spiritual discernment and was teaching a man.... so.... I can see both sides. But also I can see how both sides can take it to the extreme! God bless you Pastor Mike, we have learned so much from you! Thank you!
Great video, Pastor Mike! As one greatly interest in how a biblical church should be run, I find this series very helpful!
This is hugely helpful Pastor Mike!!! It’s hard to find anyone who will talk about this subject let alone from a point of view that isn’t bent on their own bias. I somewhat recently started looking into all this myself on a deeper level and it’s nice to see that I wasn’t off on my findings. As a woman in ministry this is a hard subject that needs careful handling as I don’t want to step outside of what God wants into what I want. Thanks for doing this!!
I came into this study with extreme complimentary views and you have soften those a tad. Thank you for actually teaching the Bible with supreme authority and not making it fit your pre understanding based on culture and other outside influences. I Came in very skeptical of your biblical teaching (mostly because of your understanding of the doctrines of Grace). Glad I stuck around and listened carefully to your fruitful labor on the study of women in ministry. The best study on the subject I've listen to and I've listened to many theological giants on the subject such as McArthur, RC, Piper, Washer, Voddie, ect....thank you for holding scripture with the authority it deserves even if it says things that are hard to fit into our culture. Thank you for teaching in a way that is easy to understand for us simpletons. Theologians lose a lot of respect from me when they string together big words to sound smarter when it could have been said in much simpler terms. Glad you are not one of those. ☺️ Looking forward to listening to the rest of your series.
Bro your highlight from Titus 2 on the lack of generational teaching in the church, particularly men to men and women to women. Ive been waiting for a pastor to teach that for years! Do an episode on just that lol
Thank you SO MUCH for digging deep and sharing your findings here. Your time researching and teaching are greatly appreciated. I've found this study to be incredibly helpful and insightful, especially as a woman seeking to know her place in ministry. Looking forward to digesting the rest of the series. 🙏🙌
😊
Q. First I wanna say I appreciate how much work you've put in to this. Your explanation behind female deacons makes a lot of sense to me, and gave me a lot to think about. I wanted to believe it bc ot made a lot of sense. However, looking at the text, there was one huge thing I didn't see you mention much, being vs12. How do you reckon the clear distinction in the Greek, "Deacons, be of one WIFE"? The word I see there is the same one used for women/wives in v11.
Again, thank you Pastor Mike for all your hard work!
I had the same question and came to the comments to see if there was an answer!
@@litaclark1 paul was reiterating that God's original plan was for one man one wife but after the fall poygamy came in and God allowed it for a season. Jesus fixed it and Paul was confimring that the deacon was to be a husband with only ONE wife not 2 or 3. This rule did not apply to women because women had only the one husband. There were women deacons in the early churhc so this rule is not saying women cannot be deacons.
Thank you so much for this series. Your thorough and objective study and presentation of the Bible is so helpful! As a mom of 4, I can listen while I'm doing home duties but am pressed for time to do this deep of digging into this topic solely on my own.
Wow. @41:00 was 🔥🔥🔥.
Women- we MUST have deep theology. And in order to learn it we must TALK about it- even with others outside our immediate household!
I'm amazed to hear there are churches today that think women shouldn't discuss theology outside the household!
Mike, the way you share truth so gently and humbly, without watering it down, and with humor sprinkled in, continually reminds me of Jesus, and what it must have been like to hear Him speak to his followers. You are a delight, Brother.
I have loved the video series so far. There is respectfully one point of contention that I have with this video. When discussing the 1 Tim 3 qualifications for elders/overseers you mentioned how they were all male-oriented qualifications, including being the husband of one wife. However, when you were discussing 1 Timothy 3 qualifications for Deacons, you completely neglected that verse 12 says that deacons also must be “the husband of one wife”.
Yeah I feel the same way, I am a complimentarian and I feel very blessed by this series. But the idea of a verse using masculine language meaning it only applies to males is a bit shaky. Especially when you consider verses like Deuteronomy 22:25-28, which discusses how rape is a sin and the victim of it is innocent. It uses masculine language to refer to the attacker and feminine language to refer to the victim. Does this mean rape is only a sin when it's a man assaulting a woman? No, obviously not, that's just the most common use case and the only one that would really occur in that culture.
Ultimately, I am a complimentarian and I agree with the idea that pastor role is off limits for women, but general leadership roles are not, but I would not use the requirements for being a pastor using masculine language as an argument towards that. Especially given the decon point you made. God bless and I pray the absolute best for Mike Winger that he can continue to bless people through this series and others, and if I am incorrect on any points I have made here I pray that I get corrected in them.
I am a little frustrated by this as well...especially when Mike is discussing other folks points and conclusions from one verse that doesnt take into account the simple reading of the next few verses (I believe it was elder women teaching younger women... not that they were elders teaching broadly.. just mentoring other women to walk the faith). So it seems like Mike cut this short in a similar way. I love and appreciate Mikes work and teaching in many areas and have learned much from his biblical exegesis, but admittedly am confused and disappointed that this verse got no attention. So while I can agree with his conclusions, not handling this verse leaves me still a little confused and feeling like I have to force that conclusion on the text by trying to figure out how to interpret it with that conclusion in mind.
My attempt at that is as follows... 1. Maybe Paul is going back the male deacon description/terminology of verse 8, but it broadly applies to both sexes as needing to be the spouse of just one other spouse. My thoughts go to passage discussed of the elderly widow who was a wife of one husband to be enrolled in welfare of the church. My thoughts also go to the description in 1 Cor 7 where Paul discusses remaining in the marital situation you were in when called to Christ and the discussion of a believing wife bringing an element of sanctification to her household. I do wish it were more clear in this context of 1 Tim 3 how exactly vs 8-13 relate to one another and this topic. Mike... you got 99% the way there man.. why leave us hanging like this my friend????
I do not see that as indicating that the role must be male, but that if a male, he must not be a polygamist like Jacob.
So, one of the reasons this may be, is because the Greek word for "deacon" is masculine. In my very brief examination into the Greek formations, this lines up with what Mike was talking about regarding both the absence of a female form for "deacon" and the discussion about "women" versus "wives" in the description of the potentially implied "deaconess."
In this case, it definitely seems that one of two possibilities exist:
1) Paul is shifting back to speaking to men specifically
2) The masculine nature of the term "deacon" results in a grammatically appropriate sentence following.
I'm somewhat inclined to lean on the latter, as cursory searches do not result in the generic term "spouse" from the Greek. Marital terms are gender-specific, meaning that the only way to "neutralize" the term would be to go back-and-forth between the two. If we consider Mike's argument that verse 11 deals with the "deaconess," then we can draw that Paul has already addressed both sides of the coin and is summarizing the final point under the linguistic masculine form of the only term "deacon." I also believe that it can be considered a concluding statement in this fashion due to the way Paul follows in verse 13, which definitely reads as a close to the topic.
@@darthnocturnis3941 interestingly Phoebe is called a deacon in rom 16:1-2 using the masculine form
Alongside my other comment I’m extremely grateful for these videos and how grounded they are and I very much enjoy learning and these super deep dives I pray your ministry would be blessed greatly!
Very well done, I’m curious though because it seems like you push obstructively hard against the egalitarian tendency to pluralize some of their examples like the teaching of ministers and deacons.
Through out the entire video it feels like when the ambiguity leans more in favor of complimentary views, you allow those ambiguities but when the other way you seem to tend to shut it down much harder.
If it happens once in scripture, how does that not allow for that thing can be happening multiple times? It just seems like you are noticeably more critical of those things for one side then the other.
Thank you for taking all the time to dig deep. Appreciates you Mike
Hey Mike. Thank you for doing these videos. They help me a lot. Might I suggest you take your time if you can and let them be as long or as short as you need to make sure this topic is covered the way that you do best. I appreciate your work.
Mike managed to get a jab at the Passion Translation in!
Lol
I'm really enjoying this study. You are helping me understand why I believe what I believe. God bless!
I think people reading into the fact that Paul calls people working side by side with him in the gospel means they must have an official position or role, is a sad indication of how institutionalised we are and perhaps how our flesh wants to view things in terms of power. Do we really think Paul would only describe someone as working side by side with him in the gospel if they were of high enough 'authority'?
Excelling observation. I really do wonder if this whole conversation boils down to a misunderstanding of authority as "power over" people instead of the "power to empower others." Power and control instead of responsibility and being the one to act like Jesus first ❤
Believing women do not need a 'platform or position' in order to love and serve God and others. Prayer, giving, befriending/greeting others, hospitality, arranging and providing edifying activities for children, giving the gospel to strangers through personal testimony and leafleting, mentoring young women and girls, sharing and teaching useful and interesting hobbies, writing notes of encouragement, etc., are things that believing women can and should be doing! A lot of such ministry can take place in our own homes and neighborhoods.
Heard someone share this : 2 Timothy 2:12 says “I don’t allow a woman to teach a man”. The king James wrongly translates it in the plural. I don’t allow WOMEN to teach in the church. Wrong. Doesn’t say that. It says I don’t allow A woman to teach a man. The next verse is about Adam and Eve and the marriage relationship. Some translations say I don’t allow a woman to disciple her husband. It’s talk at minimum about one single lady not being able to disciple a single man. That is just wisdom. But more than likely contextually speaking of a marriage relationship and how husbands should not be taught by their wives.
The other is in 1 Cor. 14. It tells woman in the plural to stay silent. But the next verses again gives context. It says wait till you get home to ask your husband Questions. You are interrupting the service. Women still sit on one side and men on the other. Woman were never allowed into the synagogue and didn’t know how to act in church. They were interrupting asking questions of their husbands. Paul said be quiet and do that later. The subject is not woman preaching.
How do we know? To many verses that say opposite.
Sons and Daughters shall prophesy!
Phoebe in Romans 14:2 is called a deacon.
Janus is a feminine name and is called “great among the apostles”
Paul was discipled by a woman and her husband. Her name was listed first and in Greek it means she was more prominent.
The gospel was first entrusted to a woman before it was entrusted to the disciples.
And there was a church in a woman’s house in second John, an entire book of the Bible is written to how to manage the church that’s in her house.
Slam dunk.
Hey Mike, thanks for this series, it has really helped me! I've been unsure on which roles I can help with in the church (as a young woman) and a friend reccomended these videos to me. So, just so you know, we are watching you even here in Norway! It seems like a lot of work to make the videos, but I really appreciate it. And now I'm on to the next one🤩
In the New Covenant roles and gender don't matter.
Since Deborah was a Judge over Israel, gender hardly mattered
in the Old Covenant.
Complementarianism is a false teaching. At its center
it supports a two-tiered priesthood based on birthright.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood...
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
Amazingly well researched explanation of the roles of various women in the early church. I am still missing the explanation as to why we should see them as models for the church today. Given the total subservience of women in that society, it's surprising there are as many examples of prominent women in the early church. Most of Mike's argument seems to be, this is how it was done then, so this is how it should be done now, 2000 years later. Why? where does God say that? I feel we should look primarily to the example of Jesus. He had nothing at all to say about gender roles, or men having authority over women, but he did model some pretty shocking behaviour for the time of treating women as equal. He went out of his way to honour women, and some of them were his closest friends (though in that society they could not possibly have been one of the 12 apostles). That to me - looking at Jesus, pondering on his behaviour - is more powerful than digging into semantics about whether Phoebe was a deacon. But thank you Mike for all your detailed research, it is fascinating.
I promise to tackle this in detail as the series continues. Though I would push back against the suggestion (which you may or may not intend, but which seems implied by the logic of your comment) that we can disregard something the apostles tell us because Jesus didn’t specifically address it. I’d also say that Jesus gives us more info than many realize on this topic. Thanks for your patience as I slowly work through all the issues and related passages of Scripture.
@@MikeWinger thank you Mike. I look forward to that (the explanation as to why we should regard the example of the early church as eternal rather than cultural in this instance), as it seems to me the crux of the matter. I agree that we should not of course disregard instruction on anything Jesus didn't specifically address. But where there is doubt and disagreement between good Christian scholars, looking at Jesus' behaviour is for me a good reality check/litmus test. Thank you again for delving into this so deeply. I am a big fan of your videos and will certainly continue to follow your arguments to the end of the series.
While examples of Christ are amazing and have Godly endorsement, God Himself has stated His word has the highest authority. Please note, no where does Jesus ever speak or go against God's word, therefore He doesn't give an example that contradicts God's word.
Its actually very clear. Read Timothy and Titus and 1 Corinthians 14.
Married man of one wife with character.
Not married man lacking character
Not single man
Not polygamist man
Not homosexual man
Not a child
Not women
1 Corinthians 14:37 if spiritual, recognize this as commandment from God not Paul
2 Timothy 3:16-17
ALL scripture God breathed and profitable for doctrine
Can’t make “Paul was single” as argument
2 Timothy 2:2,5
Further instructions for men regarding the aforementioned chapters and run the race lawfully
1 John 5:3 if love God, then keep commandments, and NOT burdensome
Not hard to understand, hard to follow
Devil cunning that he would deceive the very elect.
@ binmadrid so Jesus was not tough enough to stand up to the society in which he ministered and appoint the women apostles that He presumably would have appointed in other circumstances ? I think it is very precarious to be drawing assumptions like that, insisting that Jesus would have chosen differently in different circumstances. I think in fact that Jesus's choice about the apostles is a powerful corroboration of the teachings of Paul which he says are the Lord's commandment. As for proclaiming Jesus some kind of feminist revolutionary because he was friendly with women, we don't see detailed accounts of major men of God in the Old Testament who were not friendly with women.
Yes!! It's helpful! Almost every church I've ever been a part of has had issues with this topic. There's confusion about what the bible says and even when there is agreement about THAT, there is disagreement about how to practically implement those beliefs. This is such a relevant issue in the church today. Thank you for taking the time to do the research and share it with the rest of us.
I'm grateful for the way you addressed unhelpful attitudes that can sometimes come from the way complementarian theology is taught and I'm looking forward to hearing more. How do we teach this in a way that upholds the intelligence, dignity, agency, and personhood of women? How do we communicate this in a life-giving way that truly honors and values the unique strengths women bring to the community? (Instead of down playing those strengths or putting them in a negative light...) I'm glad you acknowledge that we haven't always done that, because once we confess those things, we can repent and grow.
Well, you don't deny them their roles, Firstly. We are all called to be active in The Body. Women should be teachers if they are Scripturally Literate. They should be Missionaries, serve as Ushers, choir directors, etc.....but a Pastoral Headship models Christ. A very Fatherly role with a form of masculine discernment and confidence.
@@seanchaney3086 maybe you can help me view it in a more charitable light ❤
I don't think I can disagree with you, as much as I want to, about male leadership. Especially after watching Mike's thorough and well done videos.
But when you say that "pastoral headship models Christ", I'm left wondering who women are supposed to model? Isn't Christ my example as well? Am I not also made in His image?
When you say it's a "fatherly role" I'm left wondering where the motherly roles of the church are discussed and upheld with the same level of reverence and importance. Doesn't the Church need mothers as much as it needs fathers?
Womanhood and femininity also reflect aspects of the character and nature of God. We spend so much time making sure we know that men are heads because they reflect the Christ side of the covenant that we sometimes gloss over all the beautiful ways that women uniquely bear God's image as well.
And, please hear me, I'm absolutely confident that you did not intend to send those kinds of messages. And I'm sure you honor and value all the women in your life. I'm not making any character judgment or anything. But this is what I mean when I say I want us to think deeper about how we communicate these things. So that we don't accidentally make women feel less important, less valuable, or less liked by God. ❤ how can we change the language we use to ensure the message we send is one of liberation and life found within the boundaries of God's ways?
@@nicoleparsons7630 Well. are you ready for this? Mary is the role model for feminine humility and modesty. As Christ succeeded where Adam failed, Mary represented with Grace, what Eve rebelled against.
@@nicoleparsons7630 And Pastoralship should be FAR removed from self gratification and a superficial idea of self-importance. Christ says He came to Serve. If someone seeks a position out of some kind of need for empowerment, it demeans the very position. Pride is antithetical to any Pastoral position.
@@nicoleparsons7630 I think Sean answered the question at first before the fatherly part. If Women are actively doing all the roles they meat the requirements there won't be an issue on women's unique talents being expressed.
I appreciate how you phrased everything in your comment though. It does provoke deeper thought.