Do Statins Actually Work?Journal Club Explores Recent Paper
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- Опубликовано: 1 сен 2022
- In this episode the surgeons discuss a journal article about the benefits of statins. This article suggests that the health benefits are not as significant as previously thought.
The article:
Byrne P, Demasi M, Jones M, Smith SM, O’Brien KK, DuBroff R. Evaluating the Association Between Low-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol Reduction and Relative and Absolute Effects of Statin Treatment: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. JAMA Intern Med. 2022;182(5):474-481. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2022.0134
jamanetwork.com/journals/jama...
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Respect for these doctors for being honest and giving the facts without any spin
Doing our best. Thanks
My doctor wanted to put me on statins last year because my cholesterol was so high, even though I didn't have any other risk factors. He was not happy with me when I refused, but I simply wasn't going to do it. I retired in April of this year. Started walking/running and working out more, and went to a plant-based diet. I just had my annual physical again for this year last week. I was 34 pounds lighter than last year. My total cholesterol went from 338 to 185. LDL went from 219 to 112 and triglycerides went from 202 to 97. I'm also no longer pre-diabetic. I don't think I can give all the credit to the plant-based diet although I'm sure it helped. My diet when I was working was awful because I spent a lot of time on the road. I'm sure the weight-loss and lack of work-related stress helped as well. I am a little disappointed my doctor never even mentioned life-style changes to control my cholesterol and just went right to the drugs, but I guess I can understand. I'm sure 99% of the people out there wouldn't be interested in making the sacrifices necessary to change their lives. By the way, love your videos. I listen to them when I'm working out.
That is awesome Jim congrats. So we would argue you can give a lot of credit to your plant based diet. The reduced stress and exercise are a huge help as well. Keep it up. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Super impressive results! Congratulations!
I quit the meds and changed my diet. After 4 years of making better choices all my lab values are in the normal range. My blood sugar went below 100 for the first time in ten years. The most important move was giving up fast food totally.
There is NO excuse for doctors. The first rule is do no harm. Not knowing how food affects us makes them incompetent and they do not deserve the title of doctor. Most of the medical world is about making money, keeping us confused and not keeping us healthy. So disgusting. Read Dr Greger, Dr Esselstyn and others who have proven how to be healthy through the proven science.
plant-based diets work (unless it ends up being the plant based junkfood diet) until you run out of your own fat where you store extra vitamins. Weight loss in general can leave people feeling great partly due to this. PB diets are nutrient poor apart from this leaving supplementation the only means of making up the loss you will suffer from.
The only impressive change in those numbers would be the trigs and weight loss, at least trigs are in the top 10 related items to a heart attack (ldl is not).
I was on a statin a number of years ago, and had such skeletal pain ( along with other symptoms ), at this time I was an only caregiver for my husband (total 20 yrs). He died in January 2018, I have been off statins since about 4/18, do water exercises 3xweek, watch what I eat and 90% of my stress is gone! Although my numbers are still higher than I’d like, just had ECG, and all were amazed that I’m 82 years young. I will never take statins again for my personal health. Personally I think Stress is a major factor as well as one’s own personality. I have always been an “A” type and realize that at my age, we are all in a terminal stage....meantime I’ll continue to live, enjoy my children, grandchildren & great grandchildren. Enjoy your videos. Thanks for sharing this information. 🇨🇦🇨🇦👏👏👏❤️
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Very welcome Mary Ann. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Agree great grandma! STRESS is the main culprit with her assistance - inflammation of the arteries.
Today is the oldest we might be but definitively the youngest we will be. 73 here and had 3rd stroke. Live each day like it's your last
I think you’re very wise but I’m not being on no statin drugs I had a recent stroke and they wanna put me on a statin drug no way to K 2 to D3 Stay away from the sugar watch your carbs take care of your health you’re on the right track God bless you I think you’re smart stay away from Statin drugs I’m not going to take them no way you’re nothing but bad about them
My doctor had me take a Lp(a) blood test. It showed my LDL was high, but with good large ldl particles. . But, he put me on niacin supplements and it brought my LDL down to 87
Another great informative video you two!
A lot of people don't always understand why they are being put on a medication. And they may not know the questions to ask their doctor.
You explain things so clearly and help us realize that not everything is absolute.
You let us know when we should talk to our doctor about something and you're making people more aware every day.
But most importantly, you talk to us using terms we can understand. People are asking more questions and actually doing research as well.
You've planted a seed in a lot of people and you're helping us realize we're in charge of our own health. Not just from saying that phrase in every video but from the way you present options to us. You actually make us eager to learn!
You two could really take your act on the road! Your sense of humor is amazing and takes the sting out of learning medical conditions and concerns.
One of the most important things you're teaching us is how to communicate! Whether it be with our doctor, pharmacist or nurse, we have someone to listen and answer our questions.
I've said it many times before and I'll keep saying it, you two are providing a great service to a great number of people! Your selfless acts of giving us these videos have probably saved many lives. There's a wealth of information you provide and ask nothing in return. And you make us smile with your delivery! If there were more people like you, the world would certainly be a better place!
Thanks for sharing another great video and all the great information you provide! ❣️
Well that comment made our day Vickie. Thanks so much for the kind words. We will keep doing our best to keep viewers informed. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I know people who believe Medical Doctors are God. sad
Keep up the great educational aspect of your videos, love the rapport between the two of you, it keeps us involved. Thanks
Thanks Eric. Doing our best. Thanks for watching and subscribing
This is so good! You guys are definitely the best docs online!
Very kind to say Mel. Doing our best to keep our awesome viewers informed. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I really enjoy your jovial delivery it makes the symptoms less frightening. Thank you so much
We try Odila. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Hi, my doctor prescribed a Statin for me. When I went to the Pharmacy to get it, the three ladies asked me some questions. The first lady took my order, the second lady brought my order, and the third lady was the actual Pharmacist. All three of them asked me the same questions. Do you have high cholesterol? Do you have heart problems? Do heart problems run in your family? And are you diabetic? The answer to all of these questions was no. My cholesterol is 119 now, my lowest was 102, and my highest was 141. All three of these ladies, then asked me why I am getting this? I brought it home and never took a single one. I'm soon to turn 78 years old.
Excellent follow up video. You've exposed how people can be deceived through statistics if you don't know the difference between relative and absolute values. Cheers!
Thanks Michael. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I'm very pleased to see this video. I was on cholesterol lowering medications and had terrible side effects. I finally found a Dr who assessed me on my actual CVD risks - low BP, good weight, very low CCS and excellent HDL/Trig ratio. He also had an LDL subfraction analysis done which showed all my high cholesterol was of the 'harmless' type. He took me off statins and suddenly many of my aberrant blood test results started to improve - especially my liver scores which had been very poor.
I'm not convinced cholesterol is the absolute demon its made out to be and I'm seeing increasing evidence that more Drs are starting to come to the same conclusion. To be frank, I'm far more concerned about my major organ health than my cholesterol levels.
Oh, I believe cholesterol is definitely a risk. Statistics over many years have demonstrated that link. However, a plant based diet will change your cholesterol levels completely (if you have no disorder affecting them), and drugs are not needed. I also take Amla, which has been proven to lower cholesterol.
@@xymonau2468 No, newer research has shown that the perceived risk between high cholesterol and heart attacks isn’t true. Also, while a plant based diet is beneficial, it has been shown that there is a correlation between advent of the low fat diet craze which came to be popular and the huge increase in Alzheimer’s disease. Prior to that, Alzheimer’s was not that common. This has been linked to the fact that the brain consists in large part of cholesterol, thus lowering that cholesterol through drugs and low fat diets seems to have a causal relationship. Something to consider.
@@MaryBethMcCoy Show melinks to all that claimed research, please. It's just not true.
Agreed. Thanks for watching and subscribing
We would tend to agree. Thanks for watching and subscribing
You guys are just awesome! Please don’t stop. You guys are amazing with how you deliver info. Informative but oh so funny. You guys are naturally funny which keeps us coming back for more!
Thanks so much Mel!
For some of us the repeated attempts at humor are distracting and a frustrating waste if time - get to the point please.
Very interesting article and glad you decided to share and explain. I learn so much from you guys. Ya"ll (I am southern) recommended staying away from dairy since I cannot take statins. I did and between lipid panels of about 9 months my cholesterol and LDL dropped 20 points. Think your advice was the kicker for me. I still need improvement but was pleased that your advice and my numbers improved! Awesome! Just watching you guys smile and laugh is good enough therapy for me - mentally. Thanks so much!
Hi M R. That is awesome! Congrats. Glad we could help. Thanks for watching and subscribing
A very comprehensive discussion! You doctors bring a balanced viewpoint and speak facts and information in digestible language :) I definitely appreciate the Absolute Risk Reduction vs Relative Risk Reduction and this is a key aspect of a good health study. I knew I studied hard in those classes learning scientific method for some reason - LOL! Thank you very much!
Welcome
You guys are great. I love the subtle--and not too subtle--humor. And the fact that I learn a lot from watching your channel.
Thanks so much John that’s the goal. A few laughs and some medical info. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Thanks so much for your expertise and the time you set aside for making these videos. Thought-provoking as always.
Mission accomplished then Mike. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I started statins about 6 months ago. My total cholesterol was 245. It is now 144; 65 HDL & 79 LDL. AMAZING!! I am now watching my weight by counting calories and am trying to exercise more. I turned 70 and am looking forward to a few more good years ahead of me.
Glad to hear it MArie
If you would have done the watching what you eat maybe you would not need statins
@@markf3229 thanks Mark!
@@markf3229 diet cant drop it that much
@@timtoolman9940 In most cases it is the diet that has caused the high level cholesterol
readings. Its a matter of reversing it.
Hi Docs, haven’t seen you in a while. I’m sharing your video w/my brother and husband as we’re all on atorvastatin. Very good video and thank you for breaking down the article. Hope you had a good summer.❤️
Yes Isabel we did. Just waaaaaaaaaaay too short. All the best. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Excellent discussion! I also have high LDL (& overall) cholesterol - familial - & it is relatively well controlled with a low-dose statin. I've had that Ca scan, which is clear, & no glimmer of any heart incident. Both sides of my family have a history of heart disease & death due to heart disease. Dr has mentioned the possibility of increasing the statin or adding another. I had a terrible time starting - 10+/- years starting & stopping because of leg cramps, tried different statins, & finally used a "titration" process to get me up to speed. Dr & I will now have a very different discussion now about changing meds. Thanks so much!
Very welcome Cathy. Thanks for watching and subscribing
statins don't show any benefit for women. The singular group that show any benefit were men with prior CVD events at about .7 d per year of taking statins. The 18000% increase in incidence of ALS is acceptable though?
I love watching you guys. You give great information and love your humor!!!
Humor is important to us Kim! Thanks for watching and subscribing
Thank you for Staying on top of the recent studies, then translating it so we can understand.
Oddly enough, this is exactly what I said to you guys a few months ago and you basically trashed my opinion. And now you have reviewed the information that I already knew about and completely agree. Thank you. At least you are willing to look at new data and modify your opinions. That is something I respect. That is what science is. Good work.
Glad you liked it
What a pairahdocs. Thanks guys you do a great service with your videos.
Thanks Doc, this a great video, helps one think about being on a statin for years, it wouldn’t hurt to ask my doctor questions!
You both take care and bless you both for caring!
Thanks Darlene. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Congratulations Docs on achieving 201K subscribers! 🎊🎉.
Thanks JS. Let’s go for a million now! Thanks for watching and subscribing
I refer to Dr. Gabe Mirkin. I believe that I summarize his findings: statins do not prevent heart attacks; however if you have had a heart attack, statins do prevent subsequent heart attacks. Please review his website and documentation as I reviewed this information many years ago and use this as my guideline. However there may have been updates that I am unaware.
I am a cyclist and statin side effects are significant as discussed on cycling forums. My cycling buddy thought he was cramping due to lack of fitness but it probably was muscle pain from statin side effects.
Love you guys ! Your talks are wonderful keep up the great work!!
Thanks so much jamie. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Great information docs as alway thank you . Hope you all have some great weather this weekend. Chill out and take it easy.
Thanks Kubota. You too. Nice to start tomorrow then rain. Oh well. Thanks for watching and subscribing
You guys are great. I have learned a lot watching you guys, which has helped me talk to my doctor about meds and treatment options. Thanks!!
That’s the goal Steve!
The reason they couldn’t show a correlation between LDL reduction and less “events/outcomes” is because the benefits of statins that reduces all-cause mortality is not the cholesterol reduction it’s the statins reduction of inflammation which in turn reduces arterial damage! Cholesterol is not the culprit, inflammation is the culprit. This is well-known - see Ford Brewer’s videos.
I was placed on station because of my age, diabetes and hypertension. My TOTAL cholesterol is 139. The "good" levels for total cholesterol is 170 or BELOW (CHECK) HDL above 40 (CHECK) and LDL BELOW 100 (CHECK).
In addition, I was having troubles with pain management. I was placed on the statin ONLY because of the studies. My problem was that the vast majority of people
my age have total cholesterol levels at 250 or higher.
Since I stopped the statin I have been able to stop my 3 or 4 times a day assault on my liver with acetaminophen. My peripheral neuropathy from diabetes has lessened as well.
Far too many times people are treated by RECIPE rather than individual need these days. I had all but ONE indication to start statins. The MOST IMPORTANT one. No high cholesterol.
Thanks for sharing your experience DR JAY. Thanks for watching and subscribing
You have the cholesterol of a kid. Why take statins?
THANK YOU so much. How much Help you have given me. You two have a very good and helpful.
Why thank you Elaine. You are very welcome. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Appreciate the light hearted no nonsense good information! Well done, Thank you!
Thank you for being open and honest about statins.
Doing our best Kevin
Thanks for the follow up guys - I have written some points down that I want to discuss with my family doctor. Will be visiting her in two weeks.
Worth a chat for sure Al. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Thank you for this valuable information. Keep up the good work, doctors.
Our pleasure!
I've happily just discovered your channel. Interesting chat as I'm on two statins prescribed by my excellent Cardiologist and one of your participating collegues, Dr. Michael Heffernan. I would have hoped those numbers were higher. I had Hodgkins Lymphoma 25 yrs ago (stage 2B). The intensive Chemo regimine, T-cell transplant and 20 courses of radiation (completed due to a relapse after 3 months from the initial chemo treatment) was rough on the body. In 2006 I was told by my Oncologist that if my cholesterol counts were ever" on the fence" with regard to whether I should be taking the drugs, that I should indeed take them. I should have been taking them for about 6 yrs, didn't, and had a heart attack the night after a 5.5hr, 22km hike on the Bruce Trail (100% blockage in one artery and around 40-50% in a couple others). I have been above average active all my life, ate healthy and thought that was enough (the 3-4 ozs of alchohol around dinner though was a bad habit that I've gotten rid of). I now have a shiny new stent and am hoping the statins can stave off more invasive procedures for many years. I'm as active as ever and now always listen to my doctor.
Hi Dave. You are in good hands and despite some of the bad press, statins still help a lot of people. All the best. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Terrific! You are the first two doctors willing to discuss, in the open, Relative versus Absolute Risk Reduction, regarding statin therapy. The difference, as you pointed out, is substantial. I've read in various scientific articles that statins can be harmful, including the possibility of cancer, cataracts, diabetes, cognitive impairment and serious and persistent cramps in legs and hands. In my case I experienced terrible cramps and painful electrical discharges from my fingertips. I was prescribed statins after my triple bypass operation three years ago, even though my cholesterol panel values were excellent. After fifteen months of agony I told my GP and cardiologist that I was going to stop taking statins. Both of them strongly disagreed, but I quit, changed diet and started exercising seriously one hour a day.
So far my cholesterol is still very good and i don't plan to go back to taking statins ever again. Thanks for your video. I'm very grateful for you honesty and professionality, as always.
Keeping it real. We have nothing to gain here. Thanks for watching and subscribing
You are not wrong. Statins are toxic. Cholesterol is not the root cause of the problem, inflammation and high insulin is.
Complete misrepresentation. Absolute risk over 10 years is a radically different story than 30 year absolute risk. For someone in their 20s, 10 year risk is irrelevant. Now extrapolate into 30s,40s,50s,60s,70s,80s and beyond, and suddenly statins become massive life savers. Very disappointing to hear this downplaying of CVD and MACE risks from physicians.
@@robertusga The absolute risk quoted is quite true and relevant for the age group most frequently taking statins. Also we are talking about all cause mortality here proven in many trials to not be reduced by statins, in fact the reverse was proven to be true. This evidence has been peer reviewed but you don't often hear it in the mainstream and never from drug manufacturers.
@Ronald Harrison you did not actually read my comment now did you? Best to get the detail on absolute vs relative risk from an actual expert. ruclips.net/video/vRRD8nXEyGM/видео.html Dr. Gil Carvalho shows the importance of time of exposure and warns against short sited short term absolute risk.
Hoping you will do a piece on Lp(a) for those of us burdened with the nasty LDL portion in contrast to the "fluffy" stuff. Testing for the LDL components can be a real eye opener for some people who always worked hard to stay healthy.
Another very informative video. Thank you doctors!
Very welcome Mark. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Thank you Docs for this! These are very near the numbers I found in the NIH article I read a few years ago.
Welcome Zane. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Thank you for your honest reporting of the meta study. I believe this topic deserves a more comprehensive assessment of benefit versus risk ratio. The side effects with extended use (over 5 years) of statins are much more than simple muscle pain. There has also been strong correlation with cognitive decline, and possibly linked to higher risk of neuro degenerative diseases. This ratio should be somehow calculated into the relative and absolute benefit ratio that some pro-statin studies seem to overlook
It’s complicated for sure. Some studies have shown decreased incidence of dementia with statins
@@TalkingWithDocs I appreciate your balanced consideration. I have become admittedly jaded, having tracked with thousands of spine rehab patients over the course of 35 years. I realize my observations are anecdotal and ultimately biased - however, tracking with so many people with minimal to zero co-morbidities, going way back to the eighties and nineties, seriously discussing benefit vs risk of doing statins over long haul (as a preventive measure). I was a firsthand witness of a scary high percentage of those patients who obediently remained on statins, ending up with (severe) neurodegenerative issues. Musculoskeletal pain was the least of their worries, but is frequently the "canary in the coal mine."
Would love to see you talk about studies that show small dose is affective. I take 1/2 pill Monday, Wednesday and Friday and lowered my cholesterol by 50 points.
We can add it to the list. That is awesome that it is working for you. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Hi what a pretty picture you've on your profile! Just decided to stop by and say Hi!! I hope my compliment is appreciated 😊
What’s the real benefit,if any of lowering your cholesterol? Some docs suggest this is a bad idea.
You Doctor's are Awesome! Thank You for this educational video. 👍
Very welcome Serena. Thanks for watching and subscribing
The last 2 times I was on statins my knees hurt so bad it made work difficult. Once off statins all good real fast.
I tried many Statins, and they always caused me thigh pain. I was changed to a PCKS9. My Cholesterol levels are now perfect for the first time in a very long time but more importantly for me, no more pain
Nice GillyBoy. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Nice GillyBoy. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Please keep an eye on your blood glucose and A1C. My husband had to discontinue Rapathia (PCKS9) as his numbers jumped into T2 diabetes. He now fasts for 16+ hours daily, eating more whole foods, and lowering carbs. He has lost 20 pounds in three months and hasn’t had a glucose episode since. As for cholesterol, well, he’d rather have higher levels than to be diabetic.
I'm on a very low statin dose , 5 mg , and have no side effects. LDL has come down alot, and is now in normal range. Is it still beneficial to keep taking them in the long run? Benefits outweigh any long term risk?
Thanks guys! Appreciate your talks.
Hi Vicki. This is exactly the question being posed by current research. Worth a discussion with your family doctor for sure. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Great information!!! So glad my Lipid panel is 👌🏻. I really find the absolute reduction information very interesting. Thank you!!
For sure Ocean tide. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Finally...some honesty!
Thank you.
Hi Charles. We have nothing to gain here. We will always try to report the best evidence in addition to our experience. The best evidence is constantly changing though. Doing our best to keep it real. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Great overview of that paper!! I particularly paid attention to the summary about exactly what statins do for us. They do lower LDL cholesterol and there is no questions of that but are all types (small dense, intermediate, ….. ) of LDL causal to CVD? Do statins lower inflammation thereby reducing CVD? Do we know exactly what causes CVD? Many people are (doctors, researchers, drug companies etc) doing the best they can to find answers but it is going to take some more time. This is a great paper that looks to tease out further questions for future research. Thanks for going through it.
Agreed Dean it’s a good start to maybe shift how the research is done going forward. Thanks for watching and subscribing
LDL was indicated outside the top 10 associated issues with CVD so statins lowering LDL seems more irrelevant than anything. It is believed that at least in the case of the statins looked at that specific lowering of inflammation is one of the benefits as well as a secondary one of stabilising plaques. For example calcium scores will actually go up fairly quickly after starting a statin but this is the existing plaques becoming dense rather than the formation of new plaques and with reduced inflammation this may be where the early benefit of statins may lie for those who had a CVD event lies but those with no plaques the benefits seem minimal. The negatives far outweigh the positives in debilitating conditions and comes a question of quality of life v living a miserable day more for some people.
@@scottw2317 Thanks Scott! You nailed what I have understood about statins. I have never had high LDL (mid 3’s) and yet I had to get a stint (mid 50’s) so onto the statins I went. I have done a lot of reading since then and decided, for the reasons you list, to stay on the statin. It seems that, if you have CVD, that there is some preventative effect, a reduction of another event by something like 1 person in 17 I think vs the 1 persons in 77 if no history. So far, I have been one of the fortunate ones that seems to not suffer side effects (although I use this excuse when I forget to take the garbage out :-) ).
@@deancoder8356 Dr Malcolm Kendrick calculated the benefit of those who have had a CVD event and took statins to be 0.7 day per year of taking a statin over not taking a statin at all. I believe part of that is down to essentially a meme where you see this guy eat junk food, smoking and drinking with the caption "its alright I am on a statin". Dropping other factors such as putting type 2 diabetes into remission, losing weight which should have the benefit of also lowering blood pressure would probably do more on average than the statin but at least in the beginning you want to harden those plaques while you work on other health factors. Some protocols can limit CAC score growth to about 10% instead of the average 40% per year, with or without statins (some genetic conditions can making this happen without statins more difficult) in the mainstream.
The creator of the CAC scoring system Dr Agatston claims you cannot remove already hard plaques except I know of at least one person who was discharged by his cardiologist with no further issues to treat after having bypasses some 12 years ago.
A similar case would be of Patrick Theut, you can find his story on plenty of channels online as well.
Good luck with your health journey btw
@@scottw2317 Thanks Scott! I am working on doing the things to, “harden” the plaques! I certainly agree that there is lots being written about statins, and in cases of people who have CVD they seem to improve the outcomes for 1 in 17 (or something like that). I forget where I found that study but I think I could find it again given time. I will check out those folks :-). Take care
I really like these two guys. Smart, up-to-date and personable. I wish my doctor was like this. The bottom line: pharmaceutical companies are not necessarily evil, a small number of people do benefit from daily statins, doctors are people and make mistakes. However, putting the entire population on statins, as some suggest, is medical malpractice and nothing less.
Agreed Paul. Thanks for watching and subscribing
No pharmaceutical companies are not necessarily evil perhaps but don’t lose sight of the fact that their bottom line is financial gain.
They were evil two years ago when the shot was forced on many people. And many died because of the wrong medicines...
Very good video guys ! Theres a lot of emerging research happening at present , good to see your across it ! 👍
Glad you enjoyed it. Doing our best to keep our viewers informed and up to date
Thank you! I appreciate the information. I'm on Simvastatin, so this is very relevant to my situation. I'm a new subscriber.
Thanks for subbing!
Great information Docs, thank you! I'm on a 10mg statin, because of my cholesterol inching up to 195(I'm 60)...& a strong family history of heart disease. I exercise 6x/week, eat relatively healthy, and thankfully never had an event. I stopped taking my statin for a couple weeks to give my body a break and couldn't BELIEVE how much more energy I had. Didn't realize how it affected me. I am taking it only 4x/week now. Guess I'll see what my numbers are next time I have blood work done. Fingers crossed!
Good luck Mary Ann. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Health problems went away when MD took me off statin. One year later blood test shows high increase in LDL. Back on statin but I halve 10 mg every two days. Blood test in a few months. I agree they affect your health. Time is wasted on feeling crappy on med that doesn't 100% help as well as Tylenol. Sounds silly but back ache and other pains on statin are helped with Tylenol. Med resolving med. Anyone testing Tylenol on cholesterol?
Statins in the literature shows no benefit if a) you haven't had an event and b) you are female. Dr Malcolm Kendrik is a good source for the statistics of this rather than a shoddy meta analysis including papers prior to 2005 that were in all likelyhood repeated until they got the results they wanted. And here is a turn up for the books did they in this analysis use the raw data? I hear that is very hard (read impossible) to get that out of Oxford.
You were probably over treated. Ask your doctor what your ASCVD score is. Unless you’re a smoker there’s no way you would qualify for statin treatment.
@@michaelplunkett5124 interesting Michael, I will look into that. Thank you!
THANK YOU!!!
Very welcome Michael. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Love you guys!!!! Fun and informative!!!
Thanks Karen! Thanks for watching and subscribing
Thank you Fellas,
Doctors that care are such a huge benefit as an American....I could detail what my experience with statins, metformin etc. has been, butt, my life is much more tolerable now a days.
Thank you greatly.
Very welcome. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Are there studies regarding LDL particle size? I thought it is the SMALL LDL particles that break through the artery wall to cause plaque and the docs do not order the test for that nor the CAC scan. After 3 weeks on a statin I could not stand from a seated position without crawling to a bed to pull myself up.
Hi Katja. Recently there has been a focus on VLDL or very low density. There are many contributing factors to plaque formation. Thanks for watching and subscribing
You are correct. These just parrot what big pharma.
there is no way for even the sdLDL to get to the other side of the cells from the blood flow side. The 'accepted' model is about the worst of the 3 models I have seen put forward. The 2nd is that inflammation drives thickening of the intermedia requiring blood vessels from the artery wall to grow into this area to supply blood and this is where sdLDL comes into play not from the flow inside the artery. The third is that LDL is part of the clean up of the continual scarring of the inner surface of the blood vessel due to glycocalyx damage leading to inner surface damage. Regrowth over the scarred area means the clean up crew (LDLs) are trapped. Both the second and third methods have their own problems showing how little we truly understand about CVD.
@@scottw2317 Great summary Scott! It really does point out that our current approach is the hammer metaphor - if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. It seems that the current belief is to lower LDL so we do different things to achieve that without a real causal understanding of the root cause of CVD. Thanks
APO-B test will give you the info your looking for re: LDL small particle size. Also recommend a CAC test and an NWR test. Good luck, you're on the right track...You might want to look into Intermittent Fasting also...
Thanks guys I'm on Lipitor have been for probably 20years my Doctor is happy with my cholesterol level, but I've get some unbelievable muscle cramp at night pain the likes I've never experienced days after the muscle is actually saw like it's been exercised hard my Doctor put it down to needing a magnesium supplement he never spoke of the link with statins so I will be having that chat next time I see him ,he hates it when I say I've seen this UTUBE article about a particular report ,do you react the same way when your patients come to you saying ,OH I've seen this UTUBE report.i feel I'm more informed, I have to get a knee replacement soon wish I could get it done in Canada you guys really impress me serious information and a funny delivery ,as always enjoyed and learned something ,Thank you both
Cheers Kym
Adelaide
Hi Kym. The internet is a reality and not going away so you need to be able to address it. Thanks for the kind words. Thanks for watching and subscribing
There are a lot of doctors are starting to refer their patients to take CoQ10 enzyme really helps with the pain and statins deplete CoQ10…. Liquid ubiquinol is the one I take. Just to clarify I’m not a doctor. But I know it helps…. 💃
@@TheNewsJenorator
Thanks Jennifer I will ask my Doctor about this
Cheeres kym
Adelaide
what a great discussion. Very easy and approachable manner and your discussion was easy to understand.
Doing our best Dan
Excellent information. Thank you.
Very welcome John. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Enjoyed the journal club. The article is intriguing. Relative vs absolute risk is an important distinction. Timely discussion for me on a personal note. I am a 58 y.o. physician with high total cholesterol and LDL. Lifelong non smoker, no hypertension, diabetes, strokes or heart disease. Daily 1hr brisk walks and weekly strength training. I’ve been on very low carb diet as this has been the most effective way for me to lose weight. The low carb diet increases your serum cholesterol. Does that increase my absolute risk? I don’t believe so. My feeling ( not necessarily supported by rigorous research ) is that a high serum cholesterol is not necessarily “bad” unless there are other factors at work causing arterial damage, i.e. hypertension, smoking ,diabetes, etc. Lacking other risk factors I will add a statin when I suffer my first stroke or heart attack. Hopefully that won’t be the last word I have to say about that..😂
Yes it’s hard to say the impact of isolated high cholesterol. If you are concerned the other diet that would accomplish both goals is a whole food plant based diet. Weight loss is a no brainer. And cholesterol follows. Plus you can have your carbs back. They play an important role for us as humans. Best of luck
May I ask what specifically would lead to to start taking a statin if you had a heart attack or stroke? Would this be because it's standard procedure, or do you have a technical reason? Many thanks
@@trevorgrenon9162 For me personally, if I had other risk factors for stroke or heart attach such as hypertension, smoking, diabetes, obesity I would consider a statin. I would consider a statin if/when I develop a TIA, stroke or heart attack. This is not to be taken as medical advice. Just my feeling with some consideration for my training .
I really enjoy the super informative videos. My cholesterol is a bit high and my PCP has recommended a statin. Being somewhat of a computer nerd i have been playing around with risk calculators that determine your 10-year risk of heart disease and stroke. The calculator then makes a suggestion as to if you should be on a statin and a dose level. It seems to me that the calculator wants to get you under a 5% risk of a 10 year heart disease or stroke. I would bet that the algorithm uses the relative and not absolute stats. So if i am at a 12% risk and I take a statin then my risk would go to 5%. However what if they used absolute risk numbers and the calculator showed me to be at an 11% risk? That might change my calculus and decide not to get on a statin. Anyway i would appreciate feedback to see if this is an issue.
Hi Mark if is hard to say without knowing the details of the algorithm. It is always weighing risks vs benefits in relation to your blood values and family history. Best of luck. Thanks for watching and subscribing
A fair question and reasoned analysis. Thank you.
Thank you for this video! Will review this with my new Cardiologist. No HBP, high HDL, no insulin problems, BMI great, low triglycerides.
I was on statin and on the 5th day the muscle aches begin. I stopped taking it, went plant based for 7 months. I am not smoking or drinking also not really exercising but I am not overweight. Since middle school I can’t run longer than a minute, it’s make me feel I will die so unless I am chased I am not running. I asked my doctor to check my cholesterol and it’s still high, 5.66 my LDL. She wanted me back on statin…but I still remember the pain because of it. She agreed to prescribe ezetimibe 10 mg. Any thoughts on that medication? I would appreciate your thoughts! Thank you!
Hi M T. It may be worth a try. See how the symptoms are. Best of luck. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I tried that same drug at the same dose as it is not a statin and works differently. I did read up on it but i forget . Was told to take it while having the crestor as well. I became sicker than before and quite quickly . It may work for you but not for me.
Ahhhhh.......my favorite doctors. Hey I'm in my JAMA's right now. Lol😆🤣😂. Good evening from Connecticut. I have been on 40mg of Lipitor for around 3 1/2 years and I never had one side effect from it. I generally do not have side effects from anything. The only one is Ocravus for my MS. I get alittle itchy and have heartburn the first couple days then I'm good for another 6 months. You two make me laugh. Keep up the good work and thank you for keeping me informed. As always thank you for sharing and enjoy your weekend 😊 😀 ☺ 💙
You are so welcome Marie. Enjoy your weekend. Thanks for watching and subscribing
So great you guys reviewed that study
I love watching you guys your always very informative, your amazing 😊🥰
Why thank you Angela. Doing our best. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I was on a statin for 20 years. Unfortunately, my high cholesterol is genetic and was exasperated by my diet. Also unfortunately, I developed muscle pain after all those years and that was the end of my statin prescription. My doctor then prescribed a prescription strength fish oil and that has helped considerably with no side effects. I have a question and I wonder if this is a segue into a further reason for cholesterol or if it just makes matters worse. That is visceral fat. Would you consider a segment on that? I watch all your videos and I apologize if you’ve covered this and I just missed it. Thanks Docs. You guys are the best. Jim 🙋♂️👍
We can add it to the list for sure Jim. Thanks for watching and subscribing
'cholesterol' is rarely the issue. You can have plaque formation on low total cholesterol and no formation on very high cholesterol. When looking at the cholesterol numbers of those who present to hospital with CVD the distribution almost matches exactly the distribution of the public at large. There is a higher rate at low total cholesterol numbers than at the high end as well but the difference is marginal at best.
Most fish oil products, since they have omega 3s, are heavily oxidated and thus toxic. Omega 3s (DHA and EPA, while ALA is near useless) are great for the body but the issue is that even compared to omega 6s that are found in the nasty vegetable oils the omega 3s oxidise so very much quicker than them and considering those products sit on the shelf for a long time you can imagine just how oxidised they really are. Fresh fish in general is the best source of omega 3s for humans followed by fatty goat meat and then lamb.
@@maggamoosie801 I too was on Vascepa. Worked very well. I dropped it as my insurance decided to change its formulary. Became very expensive.
Bodies are made in the kitchen .....Great Video guys . The muscle soreness is real on statins, I got off my mine by going plant based 3yrs now .
Thanks CDN RIDER. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Good topic and discussion.... along with your usual light banter, which makes what could be a total boredom fest into something interesting to listen to. Thanks!
Very welcome Greg. Thanks for watching and subscribing
LOVE LOVE LOVE Dr.Paul, great sense of humour and humble! I'm on a statin and the side effects were miserable so I took MYSELF OFF statins. Can't wait to hear my GP fuss at me when I see her September 2023.
It could be hot off your printer. 🤣 Thanks for sharing this information. This was very eye opening. and also good ammunition to provide to my dr when he tries to have the "statin" talk with me next time. You guys are amazing!!!! 💯👋👋💪
Hi Lisa. Just want you guys informed! Some people still need them. We just need to find out exactly who. Thanks for watching and subscribing
@@TalkingWithDocs I understand
A blockage is one hell of a lot different than neat little injuries,the pain will be different so take your statin??
My question would be what are the risks vers benefits. Are the risks of the meds worth the benefits. I am a fan of chemistry. Some times the side effects can be a greater risk. Is the cure worse than the disease. Truly love you guys BTW
Agreed David. Should be asked for every intervention. Thanks for the positive feedback. Thanks for watching and subscribing
You guys are awesome by the way. You're both always on the same page And understand each other's humor .
Doing our best Linda
Great video! Like you guys! Love your humor.
Trying to keep it light Sassy Sandie. Thanks for watching and subscribing
fairly recently I have heard that in a Lipid panel they only count the LDL proteins which does not take into consideration the size of them and therefore how much cholesterol they actually contain, and that the insulin resistance number may actually be of more importance?
Cholesterol is irrelevant. Metabolic health is not. If you have high A1C, and triglycerides you are at risk. If not your cholesterol could be 1000 and you will have no I’ll effects.
@@Kermit46 that sounds consistent to what I've been hearing, thanks for the input.
Hi harry we would partially agree with Johnny. There is a shift in focus for sure. There are people with normal A1C that have heart attacks. Insulin resistant and triglycerides certainly play a role. Cholesterol does too just not as much as we thought. Time will tell. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I have familial hypercholesterolaemia - and early onset atherosclerosis (CAC score of 800 plus) even though I’ve always been extremely fit and otherwise metabolically healthy. (Was finally diagnosed at age 50 by a doctor who didn’t dismiss my over 300 LDL because I was fit).
A few years later I had my 15 year old son tested, he has FH also.(he’s 18 now)
We are both on statins, along with a healthy lifestyle.
He’s at Texas A&M now studying kinesiology and nutrition.
No worries, we won’t go off our statins. Our genetic testing shows numerous markers for FH along with a good tolerance for statins.
*My bio mom was adopted and died early, I was unaware of my genetics. My Dad’s family is Swedish and all live active lives into their 90’s and 100’s. Dad is 87 and awesome.
Sounds good Marta. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Why put your 18 yr old son at this age on a statin just because he has FL. Is his total and ldl cholesterol already high? If not, why not just monitor him?
@@creativesource3514 here’s a segment from the website explaining…
“People with FH have very high levels of LDL-C from BIRTH.
In children, LDL-C levels are usually > 160 mg/dl, but can be lower, and in adults LDL-C is usually > 190 mg/dL. This very high LDL-C level is toxic to the body and causes atherosclerosis in the arteries over time. For individuals with FH, the exposure to elevated LDL-C begins at birth. When untreated, this can lead to premature CAD, cerebrovascular disease, peripheral vascular disease and/or other serious conditions.”
Early treatment is a thing. Don’t judge.
My sons LDL at 15 was in the high 200’s…
I truly enjoy your presentation, especially, one's injected with humor! Heart warming!! Keep on beating.....
Thank you so much Canturay. Thanks for watching and subscribing
glad I viewed this presentation. great followup to the show detailing healthy foods, exercise, and simply drinking a lot more water.
For sure greg
And some medical reports say that statins double your risk of diabetes and after two years that risk of diabetes triples? What say you?
The benefits vs the risk must be evaluated for each patient!
Hi woody. The elevated blood sugar is one of the side effects of statins. Thanks for watching and subscribing
High cholesterol is in the family history...I cant do anything about that except try to do all that I can to keep in in check which I do with Prauelent injections twice a month. No side effects like muscle cramping. I would love to come off of it. Some things are out of my control!
Yes William. The injections are much better tolerated. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Interesting. I will bring up that med with my dr, although I no longer have cramping.
Love the humorous introduction to this …been on a low dose statin for many years ..no side effects
Good to hear Linda. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I resisted being on a statin because I had such bad muscle pain. I felt like someone had beat me with a stick. Finally, my PA put me on Crestor and it was like a miracle plus my cholesterol went down 100 points. Ldl is now 78 and hdl is 86. Just great!
All with a grain of salt… Rock salt.. around the rim of a margarita ;)
Nice MmmCake. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I’m on a statin, but I also read peer-reviewed journals for my career as a Licensed Professional Counselor. I even have a published study based on original research I piloted in undergrad. So, while I was watching your video & you mentioned that one of the results that maybe should’ve been included in the study but wasn’t reminded me of a quote by Mark Twain: “There are liars, damn liars, & statisticians.”😂 I like to whip out that quote when I feel like being self-deprecating.😜 Thanks for your videos, & I’ll keep taking my statin!
Thanks for sharing the great quote Jennifer. Thanks for watching and subscribing
87% of people misuse statistics. 36% actually just make them up
Thank you, Doctors; love the humor.
Fantastic guys. I have been waiting for this video. This is so germane to me right now. I will absolutely be having this discussion with my PC doc as I am on a statin based on a recommendation from my cardiologist but I honestly don’t think it is necessary based on my test results.
With the highest regard to both of you, again, thanks.
Keep on keeping it real.
Keep it real is all we can do. Thanks for watching and subscribing
I also would like to hear more on the increased risk of diabetes and dementia when taking statins. Both of these run in my family.
Hi Day Girl. Those risks are low but documented side effects for sure for elevated blood glucose and type 2 diabetes. Alzheimer’s is more grey - some studies show it helps and some say it makes it worse. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Sooo... The take-home message here is that orthopedic surgeons really do pay attention to and care about the medical issues of their patients and are willing participants in post-operative care? LOL, fellas! Great Journal Club!
We do! Thanks for watching and subscribing
Such great important information, keep it up 🙏
Thank you Lisa. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Thanks Docs. Nice patient education video ! Any time you see Relative Risk Reduction (RRR) but a failure to report Absolute Risk Reduction (ARR) and Number Needed to Treat (NNT) you are simply seeing drug company influence on scientists and MDs who get paid and are comfortable compromising their ethical duties to patients and raising healthcare costs for all of us. There are always some US researchers and physicians who will take money from industry. Hard to root them out as money is powerful. The same scientists and MDs also distort US expert panel findings and national clinical practice guidelines that US clinicians are trained to follow without question. We must thank Talking with Docs for their great (unpaid) work.
Doing our best
A big consideration also is that a lot of statins will elevate your A1C and could take you from pre-diabetic to full blown type 2 diabetes so then you have reduced your cardiovascular risk by a very very small amount and created many more problems by becomming a diabetic. A simple commitment to a mediterranean diet, intermittent fasting and exercise will reduce your risk dramatically, get you off your statns and BP meds and you will actually feel very well with more energy etc. Never get stuck on a cholesterol # and medicate accordingly, it will create more problems than it solves.
We discuss this in our l side effect video. You could also choose a whole food plant based diet and solve most of these problems. Thanks for watching and subscribing
@@TalkingWithDocs So would you advocate taking a drug (with studies mostly funded by drug companies) that raises your blood glucose/A1C and makes one either pre-diabetic or Type 2? I would think that diabetes is a far, far worse malady that causes far more systemic damage across the entire body than any marginal cv benefit from a statin! What say you?!
My family against taken medication!
Many are. Thanks for watching and subscribing
@@TalkingWithDocs ya I have high cholesterol thanks my parents gene 🧬
I appreciate this video. My LDL was high, indicating moderate risk of cardiac event 2 months ago. My doctor wanted to start medication, but I asked about trying lifestyle change. I'm limping along with that, and waiting for a consultation with a dietitian. That appointment coincides with my next blood test. So, she'll be deciding on my treatment before I will be able to optimize my lifestyle change.
Hi Lynne. Go watch our video about foods that can help lower it in the meantime. Thanks for watching and subscribing
If there are no other issues, even if there was the LDL is not shown to be the least bit causal, then listening to a 'ldl bad because pharma says so' type statement from a doctor is not usually in your best interest. A Doctor should be willing to see if there is actually an issue before just throwing drugs and their side effects at patients so they should be suggesting to get a CAC score done. Other more associated issues are diabetes, high blood pressure, hypertension, obesity, smoking, drinking, low HDL and high trigs etc. I believe if we were to break the numbers down LDL is something like 1.36 (where 0 is no chance) and diabetes is over 10 and high blood pressure/hypertension is over 6. The LDL in this case includes very low LDL and high LDL as presentation with CVD and very low LDL is very common as well.
@@TalkingWithDocs I did watch yhat and intend to watch it again. And all your other videos on ghost topic. Thanks!
I'm glad you showed honest info. My husband went off statin and high blood pressure meds after bypass because the side affects of one or both were crippling. Not saying get off, but check with Dr. If side affects.
I really liked the part where you added that inflammation and insulin levels can play a part in your heart. ♥️
I also believe that most American diets are so low in fiber. It’s really hard for people to get it in their heads that they need to do an increase in their fiber quite a bit.
Sad to say that I lost my brother two years ago at age 52 from a heart attack and he fell over in his pool. He left behind two kids and a wife.
I have your new report card here. It has D’s and F’s… (Doing Fine). You boys are doing a fine job!!!🤗💃💃💃💃💃
Thanks Jennifer. Best way to get lots of fiber is more plants. Thanks for watching and subscribing
constipation and IBS are quite common in the US and the best way to put those into remission is complete removal of fiber altogether. Fiber is overstated as a marker of good health.
@@scottw2317 Utter nonsense. Yes, constipation is a problem, but removal of the miniscule amount of fiber in your diet will only serve to make matters worse. I suffered all through my childhood with constipation as my mother was a terrible cook. Once I left home I started eating properly, a balanced diet with lots of fresh vegetables, and forty-five years later I have never suffered from constipation again. A sensible diet does matter, unless you prefer to have a pharmaceutical company keep you alive.
@@paulmaxwell8851 Oh I bow to your anecdote then. Obviously so much wiser than a highly controlled RCT done on people suffering that condition that showed complete resolution for all involved with the removal of fiber. they must've just imagined such a result, it must've been all that lack of 'balance' they had.
If eating 'balanced' works for you, great, but don't talk about something being nonsense if you have the least amount of an idea of what you are talking about.
It’s sometimes hard to be objective about side effects. Was that muscle pain there BEFORE starting a drug but was only raised in your mind after reading about possible side effects?
Hi Jeff. You just described the nocebo effect which we talk about in our side effect video. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Healthy living thank you two Doctors from Johannesburg South Africa 👍💕
Hi Jakes. Yes healthy living! All the best to you in Johannesburg. Thanks for watching and subscribing
Another relevant topic and well presented by you guys. There's lots of talk about this on the web right now. I think it's important to know your triglyceride to HDL ratio before deciding if your high LDL needs a statin.
For sure they are all important and not completely understood these days