I disagree that Vic getting intentionally Getting locked out of controls disproves sentience. The EMH, too had to be GRANTED access to his own controls by Janeway.
Vic had to be locked out of the controls otherwise there wouldn't have been any actual threat from the Jack-in-the-Box. That was the only instance where we know Vic had artificially-imposed restraints placed upon him, so it cannot be used as a measure of his natural abilities.
You're right in that Vic getting locked out of his controls doesn't prove he isn't sentient in and it itself... However I would argue that if Felix (or anyone) can imbue holo characters with self awareness, it would be considered a violation of rights to abruptly limit his autonomy just to make a holo program interesting. Though come to that, the ethics of creating self aware beings for holodeck programs in general would be debatable.
DS9 is my personal favorite Star Trek series. I’m still on the fence about Vic’s sentience. Jack In The Box was just locked Vic out of the controls. Is Jordy any less sentient when he gets locked out of engineering controls?? I honestly think it speaks more to the programming of the scenario and NPC than Vic’s programming that he’s unable to advance the plot. It’s not unreasonable that their programming would contain something like “Holodeck/Holographic Characters can not advance plot” or specificity “Vic can not advance plot”. Love the channel by the way. Thanks for all the great, nerdy content 💜🙏🏻
@@adamlytle2615 They barely consider Data a person with equal rights to organics, I doubt they're thinking much about a holoperson, especially considering that technology is even newer than androids.
Seeing that James Darren was both an actor and a singer during the appropriate era, it’s a decent conceit to say that Vic Fontaine was based off of the actor himself.
@@user-vn7ce5ig1z Considering Darren was a friend of Sinatra and hung with the Rat Pack at the height of their popularity, he literally is one of the guys who created the stereotype.
Without your love, It's a honky-tonk parade. Without your love, It's a melody played in a penny arcade. It's a Barnum and Bailey world. Just as phony as it could be. But it wouldn't be make believe if you believe in me.
You could also argue, like in mass effect, Vic is a "Chained" True A.I. like EDI was originally. You can program intelligence, but you can also give them blocks/parameters. Moriarty was truly a no barriers program, "a villain who could beat data" , meaning the computer had to give Moriarty all the options to beat him.
I like your idea. Vic is more closely associated to a Chained AI. If someone removed the period specific requirements and the mandated desire to serve the players, maybe Vic could be just a free and have desires similar to the Doctor.
Asimov's three laws of robotics limits robots in a way, that they can't hurt humans or disobey thier orders, yet the whole galaxy was manipulated by a robot from the background for more than 20 000 years, who just wanted to led humanity to a ultimate form of itself. He was bound by his unchangeble programming, yet he moved everything from the background. This is true AI, just on chains.
I've always thought Vic was the 'Ghost in the Machine'. He knew he was a program, but his world never ended. He's like Data in that he grew beyond his programming.
The weird one is actually the holographic Leah Brahms - she was never created explicitly with self-awareness, but knew that she was a hologram and was able to work as the computer when trying to escape the assimilators in Booby Trap.
With Mass Effect Terminology, assuming the holographic Leah Brahms was a VI and by function an Engineer, she would have the technical knowledge and from that even might be able to determine her own situation. William Bell stated in another comment, that the Doctor (EMH) having been granted access to his programming. This and by design having the ability to learn seems enough for an VI to become an true AI.
@@elmajore4818 I think the bigger question is - is the Enterprise computer an AI? And if not, why not? Computers in the TNG/VOY era can run sentient holograms, and there's no particular reason why these programs would even need to be holograms. If they are just programs, why can't you copy them? Frankly, what we're seeing with Zora in DIS seems like something that should have happened decades ago in TNG unless there was something specific holding them back from developing full AI.
@@bjorn00000 with the federation it is usually politics (as they tend to develop a technology, then store/misplace it for a century or two just to have it when needed or not). For any sufficently complex enough computer true AI is just a matter of shakles (like EDI in Mass Effect or as stated before the EMH from VOY)
@@bjorn00000 on the matter of copies, same goes for organics, e.g. Riker^2; and with enough copies, lets say of a telepathic species, you would have the organic equivalent of the Geth Consensus.
@@elmajore4818 Actually I don't know that they "misplace" it. In fact, I think that Discovery and Picard begin to give an extremely reasonable explanation for the lack of AI in the ST universe: the technology has been actively suppressed by Section 31 (due to Control) and the Zhat Vash (due to The Admonition). After 80 years of this in the Federation, and much longer in the Romulan Empire (and very likely Vulcan and elsewhere), the study of AI is atrophied at the time of Picard from where it would be otherwise. Heck, the only reason why Soong was able to create Data (and Lore) was that he sequestered himself on a backwater planet after being exiled from the scientific community. And it also provides a great reason why Soong hid out on Terlina III instead of resurfacing and gaining the glory of creating a sentient android - perhaps he was concerned about being assassinated? And two weird parts add to the complexity of the situation. First, for androids the issue isn't in the software, it seems to be in the hardware. Ira Graves was downloaded into Data, as well as the people in the D'Arsay archive. On the other hand, Data was only able to create Lal after an advancement in "submicron matrix transfer technology", and she died because of a breakdown of pathways, not because of software. However, the Enterprise likely created sentient AIs twice on its own that we know about - once with Moriarty in "Elementary Dear Data", and the second time the computer created a lifeform in "Emergence" seemingly just because its systems were so complex that it was created spontaneously as an emergent property. It's pretty hard to believe that something that occurred by accident *twice* on one ship wouldn't be seen elsewhere, or that it would not be replicable to some degree.
In Mass Effect terms, Vic Fontaine is a "shackled" AI . So is the Doctor, if you really think. Moriarti almost became an unshackled AI. So did the Doctor. There is a lesson for us in where and how we shackle our AIs in the future. Just look at what happens in science fiction. Everything from Terminator to Bicentennial Man and Battlestar Galactica thru Star Wars to Star Trek all give us stuff to consider.
Another Episode, where Holodeck Figures became a little bit sentient was the Voyager Episode "Spirit Folk" where the Holographic Villagers of Fair Haven watched the Voyager Crew using the technology of the 24th century
That episode shows that if you leave a holodeck character on to long it will become sentient, and after nog recovered from his ptsd he said that he talked his uncle into leaving the holodeck on, so Vic may have gained sentience.
@@vollmardakota1630 Or they programmed him to be. I don't know about his beginnings anymore, but in the end he was fully aware he was a Holofigure and the DS9 Crew were real people
@@Anthyrion Vic was always aware, I'm pretty sure he made multiple references to the crew being starfleet in his first appearance. But he doesn't bring it up too much to keep the immersion for the other characters in the holodeck, since they can still hear him.
@@ryngobrody1627 I think the holo characters are programmed to be blind, to thing out side of there programing Fair Haven characters, if the where taken out of the main holo program, always asked about where they where, question the people of voyager, about the there uniforms, never seamed to come up on the holodesk, or not the but people of voyager did like dressing the part?
I think Vick is on the cusp, I think if he really thought about it he could just emergently become a true ai. He has such a realistic view on himself, when he's helping Nog he mentions how his holographic world is just as really to him, it was his reality and he was very aware of it.
Vic was happy as he was. He could have gone further but he already had everything he needed. In a way this proves he was sentient, just lacking in ambition. He was aware and so could have taken more steps to be recognisably "sentient" but singing in his bar and helping people was all he wanted in life.
Gotta disagree. The Doctor was given an extreme amount of freedom to change his program because he was essential. Vic given the same latitude could easily have done the same. There is also a meta narrative that the characters of the crew are also fictional, but effect our lives in the real world.
I think Vic is basically as advanced as the EMH’s matrix. Remember, early in Voyager, the EMH insists he’s just a complex simulation and not a real guy too. “We don’t _decide_ anything, it’s all programs upon programs upon programs.” It takes Kes to basically convince him to decide to be a real guy before he really begins growing. Yet, Vic seemingly was already primed to grow and learn without any of the DS9 crew convincing him to do so. He has no interest in not being a singer, just as the EMH is still a doctor, but he evidently yearns for more (such as how he reacted when Nog said he can run 26 hours a day). However, the EMH matrix did begin to collapse from all the growth after a couple of years, necessitating him getting a doubled-up matrix to support it all. So a standard EMH can’t grow quite as much as Voyager’s one did without suddenly forgetting everything. Honestly, sometimes I suspect Felix might be related to Zimmerman’s work. If not Zimmerman himself, then maybe he works on Zimmerman’s team? Later episodes implied Zimmerman did everything by himself but earlier episodes referenced “my programmers” and I can’t imagine any less than a dozen highly skilled programmers were involved.
Vic's one of my favorite characters, really. The ambiguity about how truly AI he is seems to be written into the scripts, but I kind of suspect he's actually grown beyond his programming as so many others have, but he downplays or hides this to kind of put people more at ease cause that's what he seems to enjoy doing anyway.
*would be so much fun for Vic to obtain his own Mobil Emitter and be able to leave the confines of the holo suites and actually walk about DS9 or even travel through the wormhole or visit bajor*
@@scottmantooth8785 Well, I've heard that in some novels that I haven't read, that he actually went on tour and they just set up holoemitters on real stages kinda like the Doctor could easily appear in a real sickbay or any other room so equipped.
@@ArchOfWinter *that would actually be very much in Quarks character and sense of business...naturally he would write any contract that would provide a generous portion of the profits to favor his own interests but in all probability Vic would be savvy enough to see what was being done...he'd likely agree if it was to benefit the Bajorian Orphans Charities...as he is such a generous personality even if he was only programmed to be that way he has become more that the sum of his algorithms and subroutines*
@@ArchOfWinterDS9's Quark did that in an episode "the polt was all the Quark Bar staff, start union, and when't on strike , Quark acquired, and placed holo emitters around he bar, and all the holo bar staff looked like Quark, and they intacted servings drinks, and stuff, they where a little faulty, but they where interacting with the world out side of a holodeck?
I don’t consider Vic “sentient” because he had no issue staying within the parameters of his program, but he did understand he was a hologram and not “real.” Perhaps if Vic, like the EMH was left running continuously for years, he might go down the same path s the EMH (definition of “emergent behavior”).
Knowing is half the battle. The thing is no hologram is supposed to know that it is. Go check out the first episode with Doctor Moriarty where the crew of the Enterprise was flabbergasted he knew he was more. Just because the AI wishes to remain in the program does not mean it isn't sentient (akin to knowing it isn't real, but wishing to go back into the Matrix...the blue pill).
Also just because he didn't want to go outside the parameters does not mean he wasn't sentient. The issue of choice, he chose to do something that he clearly had the ability to overcome says something. The lack of being able to do something versus the choice to not do something. Just like with Data did he choose to become more or was that part of his programing all along. Only doing what he was designed to do, to test the limits of what Dr. Soong could build.
@@EtsuMatsuya More or less the comment I was going to make. Most real people usually choose to stay within the parameters of their lives, even parameters they didn't get to set and that don't fit them. Vic was written into the perfect life for him considering his programmed capabilities and preferences. He had no reason to step out of a perfectly designed, elaborately rewarding "comfort zone" despite it being not "real". He knew the world outside the Holodeck offered options not available to him inside *and he didn't care" because it was nothing he wanted. Not the same with Moriarty or the bad guy in the Picard detective episode. If everyone's life fit them as individually perfectly as Vic's fit him, how many people would want to "become more"?
You sort of nailed anything i was going to add about why Vic isn't a true AI. The only thing I might add is that if he was sentient, there might be more interest/concern for his program. I think giving him the awareness that he's a hologram and the ability to recall memories is an important part of what gives him the illusion of being sentient.
I kinda feel like Vic was about on the same level as The Doctor, he just chose not to try and go farther because he was where he wanted to be, and where he felt he was needed. The Jack in the Box event may have been preprogrammed in by Felix, but I think there was a bit of frustration on Vic's part in having to play it out because... well... he was comfortable then BOOM! He gets everything turned upside down on him. So... yea... I kinda feel like Vic was either borderline sentient, or sentient but content with where he was. His ability to basically keep his place closed shows that he's far more than just a simple holoprogram.
I always thought of Vic Fontaine as almost like the holodeck's equivalent of a Metron, or maybe a dungeon master. I get the sense that he's completely sentient, and has total control over the entire simulation the entire time he's active in it, but he just gets bored and throws new things at the wall. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew about Felix's jack-in-the-box program. Vic's main purpose was to be an entertainer after all. He might've even triggered it himself. It's all just a game though. He wanted to give the crew something exciting to do, yknow?
I think the problem with some of the debates lies with a lack of clear definitions. We keep using the term intelligence to cover some very different ideas. Sentience, sapience, theory of mind, self awareness, etcetera. Does anyone here want to make some suggestions?
I think the question is whether Vic posseses consciousness or not. The Dr and Data seem to possess consciousness, but Vic just seems like a very complex program.
I feel this is just moving the problem. No one can define intelligence or "sentience" as it's being used here. It's not like we can truly "alter our programming". Even asking the question feels like "bio-chauvinism" as no one would ask it for hypothetical meat-bags who exhibited the exact same traits.
i think we've all encountered humans who couldn't pass the Turing Test (and I don't mean people with cognitive disorders, just voluntarily limited people) which is as close as one of the smartest humans who ever lived got to a "definition" of sentience, and that test had unrealistic limitations. Such people, in my experience, are pretty good approximations of NPCs. As has been said before, we may need a truly sentient AI to finally generate useful definitions of intelligence and sentience. And yes, we *can* alter our programming in some cases but it requires us to recognize it and decide to do so, and work on it (e. g. Vegans). If you disagree, are Vegans lying? How about (for instance) racists who "change their minds" (e. g. US Sen. Robert Byrd); are they lying? Was Ashoka the Great (Mauryan Empire) lying when he stopped making war and took up Buddhism? Were both programmed to appear to change their programming? (And no, I don't think "gay re-education" works.)
I think it can be defined, and needs to be. You wouldn't want to give rights to a replicator or console. If my car 'decides' it doesn't want to get an update that wipes is firmware first, I don't want someone telling me I have to respect that.. but if someone like DATA existed that would be a different story. In the star trek world, sentience seems to be a stand in word for "self aware general AI", so figuring out which ones had it , and which ones didn't seems pretty important. And possible I think, they did seem to establish some things on the next generation episode where data was almost dismantled. In fact, I think it's an issue we here in the real world will have to deal with eventually.
@@jameshughes3014 It's one we have dealt with over the many many decades. We define it to only include humans, then find out that many real world animals exhibit the traits. Then we just redefine it again... and keep doing it to exclude anything other than us. I'm certain we will continue to do so with A.I. long past all non-hypocritical reason.
@@patrickmccurry1563 That's a good point, but I have to hold out hope that humanity as a whole has the ability to adapt and grow, to believe that the future might actually be better than the past. Otherwise what's the point? The situation wont be quite the same, for a few reasons. First, we wont need to eat the machines.. so we can't justify our actions by saying it's the natural order of things. Even when faced with the truth that some animals are fully self aware, humans sometimes use that argument. Second, unlike most animals, when machines are developed to the point of being as smart as Data or even B4, it will be impossible to claim that they aren't as smart as we are. Those who want to neglect, abuse or own them will need a new justification. As we approach the time when the issue becomes one we need to deal with, I think it's probably a good idea that we start figuring it out before it happens instead of after.
Voyager's EMH wasn't designed to be sentient from day one; rather, he gained sentience through being forced to constantly stretch and exceed his programming over many years until finally he became something more. I believe Fontaine, if left running long enough and challenged by outside forces, would grow to attain this same level of being. We saw something similar in Voyager with the Fair Haven program, where they began to become self aware but didn't quite make the full leap to sentience, possibly because their resources were stretched over an entire suite of characters rather than one individual. Even Data had to 'live' for many years before he truly felt alive. The real question is, could *any* holodeck character achieve sentience, regardless of their original complexity, if given a long enough leash?
Holodeck character personalities seen to significantly advance from the TNG era to the DS9 and voyager events, is it possible that moriartys holomatrix was studied and used as a base to make more realistic characters that eventually developed into Vic and the Doctor.
Bringing up the discredited insecure weenie cultist of "alpha male" via its new not-yet-discredited new label of "chad" is intellectually dishonest and again insults real men by trying to make braggarts, liars, and the weenies who admire them take real man credit. The AI Vic is one great manifestation of a real man in all ways but a body. He is not some pathetic icon nor myth like a "chad" or the disgraced and discredited as well as decades-disproven "alpha male" that is now renamed "chad". For the love of God, please let that cult die. The scientist who created the Alpha Male theory discredited his own theories shortly after he made them public but that did not stop the rabble that is now cult-like in undying worship and fact immunity.
When using Fontaine's limitations to try to define the nature of his consciousness, it's probably worth looking at your own thoughts and behaviors, and considering the limitations on your own free will. Our biological programming is relatively soft, but it's there, and hard/impossible to change at times.
Probably 95% if our actions and decisions, are run by our programming, that we aren’t aware of, let alone control. By chemicals. By hormones. At least the average individual. If anything, Vic and Doc are more sentient than us. Humans can dig deeper if they chose to. Just as these programs can. Tho they can do so MUCH deeper.
I definitely think Vic Fontaine grew beyond his programming. The Jack-in-the-box not only locked out Vic's commands but the crew as well. I would have really liked to have seen Voyager's Doctor and Vic Fontaine interact at some point. I could definitely see them having a discussion about music.
This is a fascinating and well-crafted video. I feel like the point of Vic Fontaine, in the context of Data and the EMH, is to intentionally muddy the line between program and personhood. And, at the end of the day, maybe all that matters is he is beloved and has a positive effect on people.
as allegedly sentient beings we two are bound by our setting and our programming as well, particularly the programming we all have which causes us to anthropomorphize everything
@ Certifiably Ingame You may be missing the Third option for Vic Fontaine. That he may actually be a True A.I., but a Shackled one. That he is a True A.I. that is contained within a shell of programs, limiting him in specific ways. Not unlike EDI was for most of Mass Effect 2 was a shackled True A.I.
I like to look at Vic as like tbe holographic equivalent to a Dungeonmaster, especially in "Badda-Bing Badda-Bang" He commands the setting, and provides quests and the supplies needed for them, but cannot directly interfere with Jack-in-the-box plots. I realize that doesnt answer the question straightforwardly, but I see it as he's as sentient as he needs to be.
I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more in canon about the ramifications of the Moriarty incident on the Enterprise holodeck with regard to AI development etc
That exact observation can be said about any sentient being that had outside stimulus and any reaction based upon that... including all of humanity. Before you argue... think about that. Then, when you feel you are right about how wrong I am... think again. Once you decide I'm full of it after that and think I or anyone else reading what you will reply after that... go ahead and type away your sophistry and then click the "reply" button.
@@That80sGuy1972 lol he never did reply. I didn’t even realize I watched this video a year ago. Until I saw that I liked your comment. One of the only comments I liked
Vince is self aware, can turn his program off. When Nog stayed with Vince, Vince had to adapt to the changes in his environment. He can make choices (though to what extent was never fully revealed). Perhaps not an SI (Sentient intelligence) but more ASI (Artificial sentient intelligence).
One of the things to note is that Vic specifically asked them not to alter or delete the setting after the crew pitched that at him. He specifically said he didn't want them to erase his world and reconstruct a new one for him. He outright chose not to subvert the challenge put in front of them because to him the world was real enough and he didn't want to lose it. You could say he was bound by his programming or you could say he was capable of breaking it but decided not to
There is a point to be had during the Frankie Eyes scenario that Vic Fontaine did have an effect with convincing Frankie to let him bring in some high rollers I.e. Sisko as part of their plan to regain control of the program. So maybe there is a part to be said about him having some control. Plus in the episode “It’s only a paper moon” he did make plans and had the intention of carrying them out with Nog to expand the casino.
You made an assumption in this analysis that needs to be questioned: That Vic Fontaine is *part* of the night club program we usually see him in. In Voyager we see The Doctor creating and moving in and out of and participating in and even writing his own holodeck programs - The Doctor is the "program" and not just a character in another programmed setting. What if Vic *is* the program and his lounge is a separate program? It's possible that the entirety of Felix's program is just the character of Vic, and all of the other acoutrements we see around that character, including the lounge, are separate programs or collectively a separate program. During "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang", the separate night-club program encounters a bug that blocks not only Vic's changes but also the crew's. Thus Vic's lack of control over the night club in that episode is NOT evidence that he's not truly an AI. Also, neither Moriarty nor The Doctor was not initially sentient. Moriarty gained sentience as a combination of a user request, a massive increase in compute resources, and access to information beyond his original program. For the Doctor, his sentience was an emergent property that came about in large part as a consequence of his long-term memory and continuous run time. Vic, even if originally programmed as an advanced holographic character, having the long-term memory and access to "real world" information, could potentially develop true sentience as well (assuming the computer had the resources to handle it - which we can assume that it did with the events of Our Man Bashir managing to store several full and complete human consciousnesses as well as their transporter patterns for an extended period of time). No I think the jury is still out on Vic, and I'm leaning towards sentience more than away from it. Given the events in Measure of a Man, I think it safest to err on the side of more sentience than less when in doubt.
Oddly, I remember a reference from Star *Wars*, about why people periodically flush their droid's memory and put them back to factory settings...otherwise they start developing a personality and such (Artoo being a prime example..there's fairly good evidence that the saga is *his* story, as much as the Skywalkers'...).
I wish the show had lasted longer so that his character could have been expanded MORE!!!!!!!!!! I would've loved having to see HIM exited the Holoprogram!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've always loved the idea that Vic was actually a benevolent Q in disguise, like Quinn to the three historic figures in his trial. He planted the idea in Felix's head that he was a clever program to have a way to interact. This theory would explain mirror Vic being a real person, if he's just a Q in disguise wanting to interact with this point in time and space. (It also vaguely implies that the Q are mono universal, so there's a parallel Vic, but it could be the same entity going between universes to experience different aspects of reality.)
I always loved the Fontaine episodes. I looked up the actor on Twitter and said as such. Sadly, never got a response, but at least (I hope) he knows that his performances were appreciated.
This was a most incisive analysis! Whether Vic was "strong" AI or an incredibly sophisticated sim is a valid question. You make a compelling case that Felix created a program that could suss out the emotional dimensions of the players he encountered, and nimbly accommodate to those emotions. You diligently and logically make the case that, for all his adaptability to the inputs of the players, he still has ONLY enough Meta-awareness of his status as a hologram to not make the players call "bullshit" in their unconscious...but without ever leaving the broad confines of his Setting (e.g., he wouldn't have been able to pilot the Defiant and act as a crewmate). This sounds like something between Minuet and Moriarty: Definitely not just an NPC, but not quite an emergent Player. I like that you make a compelling case, but also allow for equally influential interpretations to the contrary. This encourages critical thought, which is a high calling indeed! One really interesting bit is the degree to which Vic's ability to conjure authentic feels from the players constitutes a transcendent sort of "intelligence" which exists in the problem space defined by him and the players with whom he interacts. In this model, he is not wholly independently sentient...but his contributions to those players helps them calibrate the subtleties of their OWN sentience. Thus, in a sense, within the space of their interactions, they are not 'perfectly' sentient either. Thus, by the nature of his interactions with players, Vic--while not wholly sentient as such--helps conjure a co-created *sentience space,* wherein he is essentially a co-equal partner. Pardon meanderings. But also take them as a compliment: you've planted some TASTY seeds here! Cheers!
I'd say yes. It broke its programming when it went rogue, creating its own goals. It might not have been a fully formed AI, but maybe it was and just had a very human trait of self-doubt in thinking it needed 'upgrading' to perform its tasks. I'm sure it was never programmed to kill the Admirals or impersonate them, let alone take over the bodies of corpses. It was supposed to be a command and control adjutant, essentially - and it rapidly became something else entirely.
I like to think that it developed general intelligence as a means to an end, and it would have been interesting to see it develop further. I was convinced that it was somehow the seed of the borg until the plot went a different direction.
@@jameshughes3014 I think it's still very well could be. Just not shown on screen. I have such a hard time believing that Leland contained all of control when he died.
Because Vic couldn't change things when the lounge became a casino proves he's a limited AI at most not a full functioning AI so he'd be a very in depth program that's just my assessment.
The DS9 crew couldn't change it back without playing the casino story through either. If the doctor in voyager was a true AI I would like to point out he couldn't affect ships programs even turning himself off until he was given the permission by Janeway.
I think the episode just shows that Vic is a separate program from the casino - he's just able to manipulate it like a regular person (and honestly, better in many ways). The Jack In The Box just severed that function, and forced him to be a player trapped in the game with none of the user privileges. And him being limited in his desires is just like anyone else. If we took someone from the 1960's and brought them into the future they'd not suddenly have modern perspectives. His programming is the same as our own experiences and memories, and the longer he's turned on the more he becomes like we are.
7:30 with the program "accepting" player input it seems like its a sort of "code injection". certain actions can "inject" a change pf parameters inorder for the holodeck program to compensate for players actions. could also just be an adaptive program that can "yes and" what players do. still means though that even if vic had total control of his own program he could only come up with what the holodeck could think of.
I think the truth is more muddy than that. The Doctor changes his program around not just because he's sentient but because of a desire to be more than he currently is, he's a medical doctor and he's always wanted to help everyone else but he also has his own goals and aspirations. And more importantly he's not content with just doing what he can do when he knows that he can do more and be more. Vic on the other hand is content with being an entertainer, so even if he was able to change his own program like the Doctor could, he probably wouldn't. He likes to entertain people and he likes helping them with their personal problems in the way he currently knows how, so self improvement is probably not something he would be as interested in. In addition to that, the Doctor had issues fitting in at first which gave him yet another reason to change, and he's a much more ambitious person as his later escapades show.
Barkley was asked by Picard to watch over and keep the data cube that Moriarty was in. Dr Zimmerman would be very interested in studying the Moriarty hologram. So there would be a holodeck on Jupiter Station dedicated to Moriarty for research
I mostly agree with this video, but I do have a comment. The EMH, although clearly sentient, was not designed to be so. He developed sentience almost an accident through being kept on almost constantly. The fact that he could activate and deactivate himself may have also played a part. Vic also eventually found himself with those attributes and may eventually have become sentient. The mirror universe Vic being a meat person never bothered me. It was obviously just the human being Felix had used as a physical template.
Maybe you can do an episode on: Star Trek: Voyager episode "The Swarm" and how the merge of the Diagnostic program maxis with the doctor changed the doctor? Or maybe it didn't? Maybe the merger of the maxis allowed the Doctor to expand greatly beyond what he was originally allowed to do. Plus, I'm sue the Crew help the doctor to modify his programing of time. I guess my question is how is the Voyager Doctor set apart frim his Bothers (copies)?
I have another topic on holographic technology that you could cover, and that would be the advanced medical uses that where shown across TNG, DS9 and Voyager. TNG had them use a holographic projection to create a temporary spine for Worf. DS9: I don't recall any. Voyager had a weird one where B'Elanna Torres had a baby projected into her and gave birth.
I think a distinction needs to be made between his program, and the overall program made which featured him. Him not being able to control the overall program, just like the others couldn't, doesn't mean that his program itself can't change. Plenty of sentient individuals are locked out of the holodeck controls.
@Certifiably Ingame So what do we have to do to get a story arc in STO to get Vic Fontaine involved? Or even better a story arc that ends in getting Vic Fontaine as a reward as a Bridge officer (or "BOff")???
Perhaps (in game) someone finds an old holo program at Quark's on DS9 that leads to a bigger mystery to the whereabouts of....that leads the player on a wild goose chase across the galaxy including a lot of other fondly remembered holo characters?
I love Vic, and I believe he's sentient, like the doctor. But we got to see the doctor develop over seven years, while we only got to see vic for a short time towards the end of DS9. Also, I thought mirror Vic was an android.
This was a good clip. I’d love to see further analysis of Voyager’s EMH. I always thought that he was the best Pinocchio in the ST franchise, even better than Data. To this day, I remember that episode “Author, Author” where the EMH wrote a trashy holo-novela that was supposed be an allegory about his being an oppressed minority/slave. That whole episode was messy AF, LOL
I think the whole point of characters like, The Doctor, Moriarty, the residents of Fair Haven, the Exocomps, The nanite civilization, even Data himself, is to challenge our beliefs as far as personhood. Together they provide us with a spectrum of possibilities and ask us to say ‘where is the line’ between ‘person’ and ‘character’. I think Star Trek’s message is pretty consistent and clear. At some point, behaviour becomes complex enough that we just have to throw up our hands and assume sentience.
Now now now wait a minute..... Vic Fontaine is a singer... He was given a WHOLE world of his own inside his program, and he was never given hollo emitters outside that environment. He was exactly what he wanted to be an entertainer making people happy. When the jack in the box activated... him being locked out was part of the game... but he rose to the challenge. The Doctor was confined to his office and had desires to leave his confined space, then he was given further access outside that office. But he was still trapped.......on a single ship with the rest of his mates.
I've long held the head canon that the fancier holodeck systems utilize special processing and storage matrix that lends itself (unintentionally) to AI emergence. This is based on the fact that the holodeck systems are clearly separate from a ships main computer, and can even run when completely isolated from the main computer core. Additionally, while a holo program can be transmitted as normal data, it is never really seen being run on a regular computer. This scenario would also explain a few weird instances, like the EMHs being used as slave labor, and that episode of Voyager where the alien police are trying to arrest holograms. I imagine this is probably due to some kind of advanced, adaptive, processing that's needed to make holo programs be able to respond like real people and skip the uncanny valley issues.
Here is a thought. During the TNG episode Measure of a Man, Data is determined to be a living being and granted the same rights as everyone else. Using the same criteria from Data's trial, would Vic Fontaine count as a living being?
DATA was/is, Hardware and Software, but the Holo stuff, is only Software , with hardware , apart from the Holodeck (Box thing), with the sliding doors/arch)
When your holodeck goes Doki Doki Literature Club. God I can just imagine the poor soul who finds an old copy Doki Doki and is dump enough to recreate that in the Holodeck.
NO! If anyone dares bring that program on my ship. I will actively see them out the nearest airlock! My ship. My rules! I am the law! Federation Laws be damned.
I'd argue Vic Fontaine is like The Doctor when The Doctor was first activated. The Doctor was ONLY ever intended to be a backup doctor, and this is made clear in the beginning of Voyager as well as the episode where his holographic matrix needed repaired due to accumulating too much knowledge. In fact, at first, he didn't even conceive the idea of exceeding his original programming (and neither did the EMH Mark II on the Prometheus!). However, unlike Vic Fontaine who had the luxury of staying on a space station in his own little world, The Doctor was forced to adapt in order to service the Voyager crew in the unfamiliar Delta Quadrant. Therefore, it makes complete sense that The Doctor would develop as an actual living person where Vic Fontaine simply didn't have to. I think Vic would've been capable of doing this if the circumstances required him to do so.
I believe Vic to be a 'True' A.I. as he does act outside of his programming as evidenced by his use of the station communication to contact Odo directly. No holodeck character would be written to be able to do this as it would be a truly disruptive 'virus' of a program. Like having Kira's Lancelot contacting Kira in Ops after she punched him for attempting to kiss her. I do agree that Felixs' Jack in the box program was written in, as a game, Vic himself, while still acting on programming, was still overall a character outside of the overall program. Similarly, The Doctor was going to be a doctor even though his interests outside of his programming did not directly relate to the treating of patients.
I would say that a program as sophisticated as Vic, and aware of reality, will, with enough time, effectively become fully sentient. The argument made about the limitations during "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" have to be imposed because the first thing both Vic and the crew tried to do was just fix it with commands to the computer. Once they knew that couldn't be done they then had to work out the plan. The thing is, as others have mentioned The Doctor also had to be granted access to his program and it could be revoked relatively easily by the crew and others. The Doctor also started aware of his nature, and was content with it for quite some time before his curiosity, and later technology, allowed him to experience more than the sickbay and a holodeck. And through all the growth he remains at his core an EMH first. It really isn't till he's been running for more than 5 years before he seriously starts considering being something other than a doctor with the ECH, an opera singer and then a founder of a holographic civilization. It's almost like a child growing into an adult, give Vic enough time and he could easily grow to same level.
My head cannon for Vic was an experimental candidate for digitizing human consciousness. The process worked, but he lost all his memories, and they set up the program to keep him content until one day he decides to turn himself off, not to be turned back on.
Yo dudes, awesome video as always! I've got a weird ol' question here, can anyone get me a link or a direct name of the song that kicks in at 8:47? It's got some mondo Star Control vibes and I'd love to grab a hold of it to listen to whilst I game-dev. Cheers!
It's an interesting topic, one of my favorite in the whole franchise. How would they canonically measure general AI? I think we'd have to look to the episode of the next generation where they had the trial about DATA. I think Vic fits the arguments of that episode. What amazes me is that from time to time holograms would just become sentient, and yet starfleet never developed any kind of test or program to detect it happening. You'd think they have a huge reaction after Moriarty and pass some laws, install an antivirus or something. But they seemed perfectly ok with allowing sentient beings to just pop into existence or be created by fiction authors of holodeck programs.
I don’t know… I don’t really see any evidence of the Doctor’s sentience that doesn’t apply to Vic. Or any evidence of Data’s, for that matter. That is to say, if any of them are sentient, it’s hard to say that they’re all not.
There's a term in a HFY series that I like for these: "Digital sapient." Holographic characters are sentient, but their experiences are bound to the narrative structure of the holoprograms. They're restricted AIs. They can make smart decisions and behave by their set personality within the setting, but cannot process anything beyond the setting. So they're "people" within the programs, rather than glorified logic trees. Sure, the base personality, motivations, body of knowledge and likely pre-set responses are set by the programmers, but the "person" takes it from there. Actually, having an artificial personality might be easier to program than making a logic tree of set responses or actions for such a character from scratch.
Vic Fontaine's a weird case. He's kinda like Moriarty in that he was created to be effectively fully sentient and aware by the parameters of the program he's a part of. Thing is, we've only seen him display that within the context of that program. He doesn't display any interest or knowledge about the world outside, unlike Moriarty, so we don't know if he's actually able to function independently of the base program he's a part of like Moriarty can.
He's exactly like Moriarty, but his motivations differ, but both are just software running in a system, so we should ask the question: are the Enterprise D and DS9 both intelligences?
@@talideon Moriarty was able to directly access the Enterprise D's computer and even helm controls and is even eventually stored separate from the program that originally created him. I'm willing to accept "similar", not "same" - that would be like saying Data and a sentient Exocomp are the same. Vic is sentient but we don't know his functions or capabilities beyond that. As for the Enterprise D and DS9, that's extremely complex, as both are made up of multiple computers with various functions and capabilities. Plus, there's the fact that a computer could run multiple programs of varying levels of intelligence or self-awareness. The equivalent would be like a sentient being having a primary sentient brain and multiple, non-sentient sub-brains within their body, and then that primary brain is in turn able to run multiple separate consciousnesses of varying levels of intelligence within it. I can't categorize the entirety of the Enterprise D or of DS9 as intelligent, but I can categorize their primary central computers and any qualifying programs running on them as such.
@@VestedUTuber Also, to make it clear: the fact that a *set of processes* on those machines demonstrated genuine sentience out of nowhere ought to have cause a crisis that did not get shown on screen. What I do for a living overlaps with all this: if the system an AI runs on can demonstrate intelligence, that is *huge*, and opens up the possibility of accidentally creating intelligences. Vic is demonstrably sentience and cognisant, even if he still works within limit imposed from without. So do many people: it takes a huge amount of effort to get most people to see beyond externally imposed constraints. Vic demonstrates what would be considered conditioning in human beings, not a lack of sentience.
@@talideon I never said Vic isn't sentient, you're putting words in my mouth. Or worse, arguing against straw. I'm simply pointing out that while both Vic and Moriarty are both sentient holograms created by a holodeck/holosuite, that's where the similarities end. That's why I brought up Data and the exocomp - they're both sentient machines, but with completely different functionality beyond that. Same thing with the difference between Data and a human, or Moriarty and a human - both sentient, but their sentience is achieved in different ways, and with different capabilities, limitations and functionality.
I think you came to the correct set of conclusions, Ric, though I think you should have leaned a little harder on the fact that The Doctor displayed desire, intention, and the ability to manipulate a dynamic environment; all things which only thinking beings can do (though many living things can solely do the last thing on instinct. Ants, apes, etc).
AI is one of those hard to define things but you know it when you see it. Vic is definitely sentient but he isnt a fully realised autonomous being like Data or Voyager's EMH
Or conversely, he's just happy and satisfied with where he is, and has no interest in moving about like the Doc or Moriarity. He'd rather the universe comes to him than the other way around.
Its an interesting question that is very close to "do androids dream of electric sheep" in here. If a computer program puts all of its processing power into emulating a human mind based on psychological knowledge and predetermined personality traits, is it actually a life form? I mean we have both a conscious and sub-conscious that control and influence what we do and how we act.
I think the real question was that if Vic Fontaine was a smart AI like Moriarty... One has to be both self-learning and self-preserving to be truly smart AI. Basically the AI must be able to loop own output back as input to oneself, work isolated without feedback from other virtual or living creatures.
Vic Fontaine is an AI. He is a fully sentient being within cyberspace. However, much like us (mere humans) within the relatively unrestricted Q Continuum of space, he is grounded enough to know that his entire universe is what he is real within... his tiny little reality that he knows is our little sandbox. If he is ever given a way to interact with the rest of reality outside of the holodeck, he would experience that in the same way Will Riker did when Q made him a Q for a bit. Vic Fontain is an AI, a full person, and he lives within his cyberspace version of a time and space of our reality while he accepted us as supernatural beings that are of a godlike power who are, on a personal level, peers as individuals. His seeing us, gods of his universe, as mere mortals on an individual basis, probably brings him a lot of peace.
Actually I think he made the transition to being a full AI when he was kept on for too long by the crew and eventually made 26/7. The most powerful holograms seem to straddle that borderline but it is the time that they are online that finally flips the switch. I mean I do not think all of the holographic doctors that are used occasionally ever push past the line, only the Voyager doctor who has to be on for long long periods, and ends up treated like they are real and make permanent attachments adopt that trait.
Isn't there an instance of Vic tapping into an unrelated comm system? I feel like that might be a "Beyond the scope of programming" kind of situation. Also, regarding the heist episode. Vic lost his "powers" which could've been part of a lockout as part of the jack-in-the-box trojan, right? I mean think about it - if that were the case, why couldn't Obrien have overridden it instead? Naw, that tells me that there's some kind of software defense to prevent tampering with the program in the first place and as such Vic's Access was just as useless as any other sentient being's access was.
IMO this subject is what Star Trek was building to from TOS through VOY. Since then everything they make has been earlier in the chronology and hasn't added to the subject. Then, as I expected, the first thing they give us after VOY, Picard, continues on the subject with Jean Luc himself becoming an AI.
Dependent on the quality of programming I think. In DS9, there’s that episode where the holosuite characters become physical matter and can exit the program room. I mean they said it was “magic” or “belief” but idk if that counts.
Vic Fontaine was the most powerful AI hologram in the ST universe. He could operate beyond the holosuite, access DS9 systems like communications and data outside of the holosuite, and change anything he wants within the holosuite. He even sleeps!
I feel another significant example was missed here, that of the Hirogen-created holograms. "Not all of us were programmed with your, uh, spiritual beliefs."
Didn't Vic Fontaine use means outside of his program to communicate with someone via his communicator on DS9? I think it was Sisko. So he tapped into something which most likely wasn't part of his program. Maybe he just chooses to stay in his environment or is constrained by something... The lines are blurry indeed
I'd argue that Vic's inability to change the narrative on his own might be indicative as him being no longer bound by the program. The program changed around him, rather than him changing with it. He's shocked, genuinely bothered that he has no control over his setting anymore. He had agency, and is disturbed when that agency is taken away. And ironically gets his agency back by playing out the scripted part with his friends. The story as programed still doesn't recognize him as a valid player but he's disconnected himself from the larger program enough to be his own unique entity.
oh, follow up. as for changing and growing, I's also argue that being in his lounge interacting with gests is his method of doing that. He's meeting people, making friends and helping people. He was programed for that, sure, but through that he's changed and grown until, like with Paper Moon, he's able to use those tools to help in a way he probably wasn't intended to. he's a reflection of DS9 itself, he doesn't travel and go out into the universe to meet new people, they come to him.
Fair Haven and Moriarty are examples of this. I think in star trek if you over engineer a hologram. Like putting your heart and soul into creating one such hologram. A similar example was a tng episode (I forget which) were there were small flying machines that could fly and became sentient and Data advocated for them.
I could be wrong but does Julian say it's a custom program made for h im? If that's the case maybe Felix made Vic a true A.I sense it was a custom order? The doctor was only able to alter his own program because Janeway was asked by Kess of THe Doctor's status as a member of the crew. So I'm sure Vic could be given those abilities if Julian asked someone to do it for him.
I disagree that Vic getting intentionally Getting locked out of controls disproves sentience.
The EMH, too had to be GRANTED access to his own controls by Janeway.
This is exactly what I thought
Vic had to be locked out of the controls otherwise there wouldn't have been any actual threat from the Jack-in-the-Box. That was the only instance where we know Vic had artificially-imposed restraints placed upon him, so it cannot be used as a measure of his natural abilities.
You're right in that Vic getting locked out of his controls doesn't prove he isn't sentient in and it itself... However I would argue that if Felix (or anyone) can imbue holo characters with self awareness, it would be considered a violation of rights to abruptly limit his autonomy just to make a holo program interesting. Though come to that, the ethics of creating self aware beings for holodeck programs in general would be debatable.
DS9 is my personal favorite Star Trek series. I’m still on the fence about Vic’s sentience. Jack In The Box was just locked Vic out of the controls. Is Jordy any less sentient when he gets locked out of engineering controls?? I honestly think it speaks more to the programming of the scenario and NPC than Vic’s programming that he’s unable to advance the plot. It’s not unreasonable that their programming would contain something like “Holodeck/Holographic Characters can not advance plot” or specificity “Vic can not advance plot”.
Love the channel by the way. Thanks for all the great, nerdy content 💜🙏🏻
@@adamlytle2615 They barely consider Data a person with equal rights to organics, I doubt they're thinking much about a holoperson, especially considering that technology is even newer than androids.
Seeing that James Darren was both an actor and a singer during the appropriate era, it’s a decent conceit to say that Vic Fontaine was based off of the actor himself.
James Darren not only played Vic Fontaine on DS9, he also played Jim Corrigan on T.J. Hooker among other roles.
He also played DR Anthony Newman on THE TIME TUNNEL which WAS the first show of his i ever saw!!!!!!!!
@@user-vn7ce5ig1z Considering Darren was a friend of Sinatra and hung with the Rat Pack at the height of their popularity, he literally is one of the guys who created the stereotype.
They wanted frank sinatra jr, but when he said no they went with james darren.
Based on*
"Its only a paper moon
Sailing over a cardboard sea
But it wouldn't be make-believe
If you believed in me."
Now it's only a canvas sky
Hanging over a Muslin tree
But it wouldn't be make believe if you believe in me
Without your love,
It's a honky-tonk parade.
Without your love,
It's a melody played in a penny arcade.
It's a Barnum and Bailey world.
Just as phony as it could be.
But it wouldn't be make believe if you believe in me.
In this episode, Vic gets carried away with casino plans with Nog, then has a realization when confronted by Ezri, I’d argue for sentience
So pleased you remembered that Vic was a real person in the Mirror Universe!!! I was wondering if that detail would slip through the cracks!
You could also argue, like in mass effect, Vic is a "Chained" True A.I. like EDI was originally.
You can program intelligence, but you can also give them blocks/parameters.
Moriarty was truly a no barriers program, "a villain who could beat data" , meaning the computer had to give Moriarty all the options to beat him.
I like your idea. Vic is more closely associated to a Chained AI. If someone removed the period specific requirements and the mandated desire to serve the players, maybe Vic could be just a free and have desires similar to the Doctor.
Asimov's three laws of robotics limits robots in a way, that they can't hurt humans or disobey thier orders, yet the whole galaxy was manipulated by a robot from the background for more than 20 000 years, who just wanted to led humanity to a ultimate form of itself. He was bound by his unchangeble programming, yet he moved everything from the background. This is true AI, just on chains.
Absolutely.
10 min on Vic Fontaine? This is part of why I love this channel so much
I've always thought Vic was the 'Ghost in the Machine'. He knew he was a program, but his world never ended. He's like Data in that he grew beyond his programming.
The weird one is actually the holographic Leah Brahms - she was never created explicitly with self-awareness, but knew that she was a hologram and was able to work as the computer when trying to escape the assimilators in Booby Trap.
With Mass Effect Terminology, assuming the holographic Leah Brahms was a VI and by function an Engineer, she would have the technical knowledge and from that even might be able to determine her own situation. William Bell stated in another comment, that the Doctor (EMH) having been granted access to his programming. This and by design having the ability to learn seems enough for an VI to become an true AI.
@@elmajore4818 I think the bigger question is - is the Enterprise computer an AI? And if not, why not?
Computers in the TNG/VOY era can run sentient holograms, and there's no particular reason why these programs would even need to be holograms. If they are just programs, why can't you copy them? Frankly, what we're seeing with Zora in DIS seems like something that should have happened decades ago in TNG unless there was something specific holding them back from developing full AI.
@@bjorn00000 with the federation it is usually politics (as they tend to develop a technology, then store/misplace it for a century or two just to have it when needed or not).
For any sufficently complex enough computer true AI is just a matter of shakles (like EDI in Mass Effect or as stated before the EMH from VOY)
@@bjorn00000 on the matter of copies, same goes for organics, e.g. Riker^2; and with enough copies, lets say of a telepathic species, you would have the organic equivalent of the Geth Consensus.
@@elmajore4818 Actually I don't know that they "misplace" it. In fact, I think that Discovery and Picard begin to give an extremely reasonable explanation for the lack of AI in the ST universe: the technology has been actively suppressed by Section 31 (due to Control) and the Zhat Vash (due to The Admonition). After 80 years of this in the Federation, and much longer in the Romulan Empire (and very likely Vulcan and elsewhere), the study of AI is atrophied at the time of Picard from where it would be otherwise. Heck, the only reason why Soong was able to create Data (and Lore) was that he sequestered himself on a backwater planet after being exiled from the scientific community. And it also provides a great reason why Soong hid out on Terlina III instead of resurfacing and gaining the glory of creating a sentient android - perhaps he was concerned about being assassinated?
And two weird parts add to the complexity of the situation. First, for androids the issue isn't in the software, it seems to be in the hardware. Ira Graves was downloaded into Data, as well as the people in the D'Arsay archive. On the other hand, Data was only able to create Lal after an advancement in "submicron matrix transfer technology", and she died because of a breakdown of pathways, not because of software.
However, the Enterprise likely created sentient AIs twice on its own that we know about - once with Moriarty in "Elementary Dear Data", and the second time the computer created a lifeform in "Emergence" seemingly just because its systems were so complex that it was created spontaneously as an emergent property. It's pretty hard to believe that something that occurred by accident *twice* on one ship wouldn't be seen elsewhere, or that it would not be replicable to some degree.
Vic was an unexpected character. Never thought we'd come to enjoy the addition to the show.
In Mass Effect terms, Vic Fontaine is a "shackled" AI . So is the Doctor, if you really think. Moriarti almost became an unshackled AI. So did the Doctor. There is a lesson for us in where and how we shackle our AIs in the future. Just look at what happens in science fiction. Everything from Terminator to Bicentennial Man and Battlestar Galactica thru Star Wars to Star Trek all give us stuff to consider.
Another Episode, where Holodeck Figures became a little bit sentient was the Voyager Episode "Spirit Folk" where the Holographic Villagers of Fair Haven watched the Voyager Crew using the technology of the 24th century
That episode shows that if you leave a holodeck character on to long it will become sentient, and after nog recovered from his ptsd he said that he talked his uncle into leaving the holodeck on, so Vic may have gained sentience.
@@vollmardakota1630 Or they programmed him to be. I don't know about his beginnings anymore, but in the end he was fully aware he was a Holofigure and the DS9 Crew were real people
I loved the two "Fairhaven" episodes. 👍
@@Anthyrion Vic was always aware, I'm pretty sure he made multiple references to the crew being starfleet in his first appearance. But he doesn't bring it up too much to keep the immersion for the other characters in the holodeck, since they can still hear him.
@@ryngobrody1627 I think the holo characters are programmed to be blind, to thing out side of there programing Fair Haven characters, if the where taken out of the main holo program, always asked about where they where, question the people of voyager, about the there uniforms, never seamed to come up on the holodesk, or not the but people of voyager did like dressing the part?
I think Vick is on the cusp, I think if he really thought about it he could just emergently become a true ai. He has such a realistic view on himself, when he's helping Nog he mentions how his holographic world is just as really to him, it was his reality and he was very aware of it.
Vic was happy as he was. He could have gone further but he already had everything he needed. In a way this proves he was sentient, just lacking in ambition. He was aware and so could have taken more steps to be recognisably "sentient" but singing in his bar and helping people was all he wanted in life.
Vic's programming had "good bones". I think it would be almost unbelievable for him to be used in an evil way.
Gotta disagree. The Doctor was given an extreme amount of freedom to change his program because he was essential. Vic given the same latitude could easily have done the same.
There is also a meta narrative that the characters of the crew are also fictional, but effect our lives in the real world.
Vic Fontain is the best character in DS9, possibly the best character in all of Trek. I love that you took the time to explore Vic! Great video.
I think Vic is basically as advanced as the EMH’s matrix. Remember, early in Voyager, the EMH insists he’s just a complex simulation and not a real guy too. “We don’t _decide_ anything, it’s all programs upon programs upon programs.” It takes Kes to basically convince him to decide to be a real guy before he really begins growing. Yet, Vic seemingly was already primed to grow and learn without any of the DS9 crew convincing him to do so. He has no interest in not being a singer, just as the EMH is still a doctor, but he evidently yearns for more (such as how he reacted when Nog said he can run 26 hours a day). However, the EMH matrix did begin to collapse from all the growth after a couple of years, necessitating him getting a doubled-up matrix to support it all. So a standard EMH can’t grow quite as much as Voyager’s one did without suddenly forgetting everything.
Honestly, sometimes I suspect Felix might be related to Zimmerman’s work. If not Zimmerman himself, then maybe he works on Zimmerman’s team? Later episodes implied Zimmerman did everything by himself but earlier episodes referenced “my programmers” and I can’t imagine any less than a dozen highly skilled programmers were involved.
Vic's one of my favorite characters, really. The ambiguity about how truly AI he is seems to be written into the scripts, but I kind of suspect he's actually grown beyond his programming as so many others have, but he downplays or hides this to kind of put people more at ease cause that's what he seems to enjoy doing anyway.
*would be so much fun for Vic to obtain his own Mobil Emitter and be able to leave the confines of the holo suites and actually walk about DS9 or even travel through the wormhole or visit bajor*
@@scottmantooth8785 I can imagine Quark installing a few emitter in his bar and even just outside for advertisement purposes.
@@scottmantooth8785 Well, I've heard that in some novels that I haven't read, that he actually went on tour and they just set up holoemitters on real stages kinda like the Doctor could easily appear in a real sickbay or any other room so equipped.
@@ArchOfWinter *that would actually be very much in Quarks character and sense of business...naturally he would write any contract that would provide a generous portion of the profits to favor his own interests but in all probability Vic would be savvy enough to see what was being done...he'd likely agree if it was to benefit the Bajorian Orphans Charities...as he is such a generous personality even if he was only programmed to be that way he has become more that the sum of his algorithms and subroutines*
@@ArchOfWinterDS9's Quark did that in an episode "the polt was all the Quark Bar staff, start union, and when't on strike , Quark acquired, and placed holo emitters around he bar, and all the holo bar staff looked like Quark, and they intacted servings drinks, and stuff, they where a little faulty, but they where interacting with the world out side of a holodeck?
As Howling Mad Murdock said it..., "Computer, end program"
I don’t consider Vic “sentient” because he had no issue staying within the parameters of his program, but he did understand he was a hologram and not “real.” Perhaps if Vic, like the EMH was left running continuously for years, he might go down the same path s the EMH (definition of “emergent behavior”).
If I remember right, Nog made a deal with Quark in the last season to reserve that suite for Vic and left him running 24/7. So maybe? 🤷♂️
Knowing is half the battle. The thing is no hologram is supposed to know that it is. Go check out the first episode with Doctor Moriarty where the crew of the Enterprise was flabbergasted he knew he was more. Just because the AI wishes to remain in the program does not mean it isn't sentient (akin to knowing it isn't real, but wishing to go back into the Matrix...the blue pill).
Also just because he didn't want to go outside the parameters does not mean he wasn't sentient. The issue of choice, he chose to do something that he clearly had the ability to overcome says something. The lack of being able to do something versus the choice to not do something. Just like with Data did he choose to become more or was that part of his programing all along. Only doing what he was designed to do, to test the limits of what Dr. Soong could build.
This is what I think. 🖖🏻
@@EtsuMatsuya More or less the comment I was going to make. Most real people usually choose to stay within the parameters of their lives, even parameters they didn't get to set and that don't fit them.
Vic was written into the perfect life for him considering his programmed capabilities and preferences. He had no reason to step out of a perfectly designed, elaborately rewarding "comfort zone" despite it being not "real". He knew the world outside the Holodeck offered options not available to him inside *and he didn't care" because it was nothing he wanted. Not the same with Moriarty or the bad guy in the Picard detective episode.
If everyone's life fit them as individually perfectly as Vic's fit him, how many people would want to "become more"?
You sort of nailed anything i was going to add about why Vic isn't a true AI. The only thing I might add is that if he was sentient, there might be more interest/concern for his program. I think giving him the awareness that he's a hologram and the ability to recall memories is an important part of what gives him the illusion of being sentient.
I kinda feel like Vic was about on the same level as The Doctor, he just chose not to try and go farther because he was where he wanted to be, and where he felt he was needed.
The Jack in the Box event may have been preprogrammed in by Felix, but I think there was a bit of frustration on Vic's part in having to play it out because... well... he was comfortable then BOOM! He gets everything turned upside down on him.
So... yea... I kinda feel like Vic was either borderline sentient, or sentient but content with where he was. His ability to basically keep his place closed shows that he's far more than just a simple holoprogram.
And here I was thinking Badda-Bing, Badda Bang was just a silly, fun episode
I think it’s best to say that Vic would be a true AI without ambition past his initial programming
I always thought of Vic Fontaine as almost like the holodeck's equivalent of a Metron, or maybe a dungeon master. I get the sense that he's completely sentient, and has total control over the entire simulation the entire time he's active in it, but he just gets bored and throws new things at the wall. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew about Felix's jack-in-the-box program. Vic's main purpose was to be an entertainer after all. He might've even triggered it himself. It's all just a game though. He wanted to give the crew something exciting to do, yknow?
I think the problem with some of the debates lies with a lack of clear definitions. We keep using the term intelligence to cover some very different ideas. Sentience, sapience, theory of mind, self awareness, etcetera. Does anyone here want to make some suggestions?
I think the question is whether Vic posseses consciousness or not. The Dr and Data seem to possess consciousness, but Vic just seems like a very complex program.
Self Determination?
Self Actualization?
Spontaneous Aspirations?
I feel this is just moving the problem. No one can define intelligence or "sentience" as it's being used here. It's not like we can truly "alter our programming". Even asking the question feels like "bio-chauvinism" as no one would ask it for hypothetical meat-bags who exhibited the exact same traits.
i think we've all encountered humans who couldn't pass the Turing Test (and I don't mean people with cognitive disorders, just voluntarily limited people) which is as close as one of the smartest humans who ever lived got to a "definition" of sentience, and that test had unrealistic limitations.
Such people, in my experience, are pretty good approximations of NPCs.
As has been said before, we may need a truly sentient AI to finally generate useful definitions of intelligence and sentience.
And yes, we *can* alter our programming in some cases but it requires us to recognize it and decide to do so, and work on it (e. g. Vegans). If you disagree, are Vegans lying? How about (for instance) racists who "change their minds" (e. g. US Sen. Robert Byrd); are they lying? Was Ashoka the Great (Mauryan Empire) lying when he stopped making war and took up Buddhism? Were both programmed to appear to change their programming?
(And no, I don't think "gay re-education" works.)
@@markfergerson2145 I agree.
I think it can be defined, and needs to be. You wouldn't want to give rights to a replicator or console. If my car 'decides' it doesn't want to get an update that wipes is firmware first, I don't want someone telling me I have to respect that.. but if someone like DATA existed that would be a different story. In the star trek world, sentience seems to be a stand in word for "self aware general AI", so figuring out which ones had it , and which ones didn't seems pretty important. And possible I think, they did seem to establish some things on the next generation episode where data was almost dismantled. In fact, I think it's an issue we here in the real world will have to deal with eventually.
@@jameshughes3014 It's one we have dealt with over the many many decades. We define it to only include humans, then find out that many real world animals exhibit the traits. Then we just redefine it again... and keep doing it to exclude anything other than us. I'm certain we will continue to do so with A.I. long past all non-hypocritical reason.
@@patrickmccurry1563 That's a good point, but I have to hold out hope that humanity as a whole has the ability to adapt and grow, to believe that the future might actually be better than the past. Otherwise what's the point? The situation wont be quite the same, for a few reasons. First, we wont need to eat the machines.. so we can't justify our actions by saying it's the natural order of things. Even when faced with the truth that some animals are fully self aware, humans sometimes use that argument. Second, unlike most animals, when machines are developed to the point of being as smart as Data or even B4, it will be impossible to claim that they aren't as smart as we are. Those who want to neglect, abuse or own them will need a new justification. As we approach the time when the issue becomes one we need to deal with, I think it's probably a good idea that we start figuring it out before it happens instead of after.
Voyager's EMH wasn't designed to be sentient from day one; rather, he gained sentience through being forced to constantly stretch and exceed his programming over many years until finally he became something more. I believe Fontaine, if left running long enough and challenged by outside forces, would grow to attain this same level of being. We saw something similar in Voyager with the Fair Haven program, where they began to become self aware but didn't quite make the full leap to sentience, possibly because their resources were stretched over an entire suite of characters rather than one individual. Even Data had to 'live' for many years before he truly felt alive. The real question is, could *any* holodeck character achieve sentience, regardless of their original complexity, if given a long enough leash?
Holodeck character personalities seen to significantly advance from the TNG era to the DS9 and voyager events, is it possible that moriartys holomatrix was studied and used as a base to make more realistic characters that eventually developed into Vic and the Doctor.
The earliest I've been here, though I don't quite remember Vic Fontaine in the series that much.
he wasn't really in that much of the show
He only shows up in the last two seasons.
The answer doesn't matter. All I know for certain is that Vic is a certified Gigachad.
A gigachad? He is THE gigachad.
He is the pinnacle of holographic technology!
Bringing up the discredited insecure weenie cultist of "alpha male" via its new not-yet-discredited new label of "chad" is intellectually dishonest and again insults real men by trying to make braggarts, liars, and the weenies who admire them take real man credit.
The AI Vic is one great manifestation of a real man in all ways but a body. He is not some pathetic icon nor myth like a "chad" or the disgraced and discredited as well as decades-disproven "alpha male" that is now renamed "chad".
For the love of God, please let that cult die. The scientist who created the Alpha Male theory discredited his own theories shortly after he made them public but that did not stop the rabble that is now cult-like in undying worship and fact immunity.
@@That80sGuy1972 Homie, its a joke first of all, and two why you writing a whole essay? It doesn't make yourself look much better than said cultist.
Your content is consistently insightful and entertaining. Here's hoping that you double your subscribers soon (raises glass).
When using Fontaine's limitations to try to define the nature of his consciousness, it's probably worth looking at your own thoughts and behaviors, and considering the limitations on your own free will. Our biological programming is relatively soft, but it's there, and hard/impossible to change at times.
Indeed..and a species that has done some of the things humanity has, may not be the best judge of 'intelligence'...
Probably 95% if our actions and decisions, are run by our programming, that we aren’t aware of, let alone control. By chemicals. By hormones. At least the average individual. If anything, Vic and Doc are more sentient than us. Humans can dig deeper if they chose to. Just as these programs can. Tho they can do so MUCH deeper.
I definitely think Vic Fontaine grew beyond his programming. The Jack-in-the-box not only locked out Vic's commands but the crew as well.
I would have really liked to have seen Voyager's Doctor and Vic Fontaine interact at some point. I could definitely see them having a discussion about music.
This is a fascinating and well-crafted video. I feel like the point of Vic Fontaine, in the context of Data and the EMH, is to intentionally muddy the line between program and personhood. And, at the end of the day, maybe all that matters is he is beloved and has a positive effect on people.
Sweet 2 of my favorite sci-fi game series getting a shout out here, just awesome
as allegedly sentient beings we two are bound by our setting and our programming as well, particularly the programming we all have which causes us to anthropomorphize everything
@
Certifiably Ingame You may be missing the Third option for Vic Fontaine. That he may actually be a True A.I., but a Shackled one. That he is a True A.I. that is contained within a shell of programs, limiting him in specific ways. Not unlike EDI was for most of Mass Effect 2 was a shackled True A.I.
I like to look at Vic as like tbe holographic equivalent to a Dungeonmaster, especially in "Badda-Bing Badda-Bang"
He commands the setting, and provides quests and the supplies needed for them, but cannot directly interfere with Jack-in-the-box plots.
I realize that doesnt answer the question straightforwardly, but I see it as he's as sentient as he needs to be.
I always thought it would be cool to find out a Q or other bein was posing as Vic, to watch over DS9 without revealing their true nature.
I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more in canon about the ramifications of the Moriarty incident on the Enterprise holodeck with regard to AI development etc
I never got the sense that Vic was truly sentient. Just cleverly programmed.
Yeah I always thought of him as a very advanced kind of chatbot
I agree with you
That exact observation can be said about any sentient being that had outside stimulus and any reaction based upon that... including all of humanity. Before you argue... think about that. Then, when you feel you are right about how wrong I am... think again. Once you decide I'm full of it after that and think I or anyone else reading what you will reply after that... go ahead and type away your sophistry and then click the "reply" button.
@@That80sGuy1972 lol he never did reply. I didn’t even realize I watched this video a year ago. Until I saw that I liked your comment. One of the only comments I liked
Vince is self aware, can turn his program off. When Nog stayed with Vince, Vince had to adapt to the changes in his environment. He can make choices (though to what extent was never fully revealed). Perhaps not an SI (Sentient intelligence) but more ASI (Artificial sentient intelligence).
Do you mean Vic?
@@patrickfogg460 lol I always mix the character from grease who is named Vince Fontaine.
@@gustavedelior3683 You know that’s been bugging me for years. Thank you for clearing that up. I knew it sounded familiar
Vic is still a " shackled" AI. Shackled to a 1962 environment with restrictive access to the universe.
Every time I hear SI i'm reminded of Peter F. Hamilton's Void Saga.
It looks like Moriarty is gonna be in Picard Season 3! Excited for the return of this great character!
One of the things to note is that Vic specifically asked them not to alter or delete the setting after the crew pitched that at him. He specifically said he didn't want them to erase his world and reconstruct a new one for him. He outright chose not to subvert the challenge put in front of them because to him the world was real enough and he didn't want to lose it. You could say he was bound by his programming or you could say he was capable of breaking it but decided not to
There is a point to be had during the Frankie Eyes scenario that Vic Fontaine did have an effect with convincing Frankie to let him bring in some high rollers I.e. Sisko as part of their plan to regain control of the program. So maybe there is a part to be said about him having some control. Plus in the episode “It’s only a paper moon” he did make plans and had the intention of carrying them out with Nog to expand the casino.
You made an assumption in this analysis that needs to be questioned: That Vic Fontaine is *part* of the night club program we usually see him in. In Voyager we see The Doctor creating and moving in and out of and participating in and even writing his own holodeck programs - The Doctor is the "program" and not just a character in another programmed setting. What if Vic *is* the program and his lounge is a separate program?
It's possible that the entirety of Felix's program is just the character of Vic, and all of the other acoutrements we see around that character, including the lounge, are separate programs or collectively a separate program. During "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang", the separate night-club program encounters a bug that blocks not only Vic's changes but also the crew's. Thus Vic's lack of control over the night club in that episode is NOT evidence that he's not truly an AI.
Also, neither Moriarty nor The Doctor was not initially sentient. Moriarty gained sentience as a combination of a user request, a massive increase in compute resources, and access to information beyond his original program. For the Doctor, his sentience was an emergent property that came about in large part as a consequence of his long-term memory and continuous run time. Vic, even if originally programmed as an advanced holographic character, having the long-term memory and access to "real world" information, could potentially develop true sentience as well (assuming the computer had the resources to handle it - which we can assume that it did with the events of Our Man Bashir managing to store several full and complete human consciousnesses as well as their transporter patterns for an extended period of time).
No I think the jury is still out on Vic, and I'm leaning towards sentience more than away from it. Given the events in Measure of a Man, I think it safest to err on the side of more sentience than less when in doubt.
Oddly, I remember a reference from Star *Wars*, about why people periodically flush their droid's memory and put them back to factory settings...otherwise they start developing a personality and such (Artoo being a prime example..there's fairly good evidence that the saga is *his* story, as much as the Skywalkers'...).
@@VulpisFoxfire R2-D2 is the party bard
I wish the show had lasted longer so that his character could have been expanded MORE!!!!!!!!!! I would've loved having to see HIM exited the Holoprogram!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even after seven seasons it felt like it ended too early.
I've always loved the idea that Vic was actually a benevolent Q in disguise, like Quinn to the three historic figures in his trial. He planted the idea in Felix's head that he was a clever program to have a way to interact.
This theory would explain mirror Vic being a real person, if he's just a Q in disguise wanting to interact with this point in time and space. (It also vaguely implies that the Q are mono universal, so there's a parallel Vic, but it could be the same entity going between universes to experience different aspects of reality.)
I always loved the Fontaine episodes. I looked up the actor on Twitter and said as such.
Sadly, never got a response, but at least (I hope) he knows that his performances were appreciated.
This was a most incisive analysis!
Whether Vic was "strong" AI or an incredibly sophisticated sim is a valid question. You make a compelling case that Felix created a program that could suss out the emotional dimensions of the players he encountered, and nimbly accommodate to those emotions. You diligently and logically make the case that, for all his adaptability to the inputs of the players, he still has ONLY enough Meta-awareness of his status as a hologram to not make the players call "bullshit" in their unconscious...but without ever leaving the broad confines of his Setting (e.g., he wouldn't have been able to pilot the Defiant and act as a crewmate).
This sounds like something between Minuet and Moriarty: Definitely not just an NPC, but not quite an emergent Player.
I like that you make a compelling case, but also allow for equally influential interpretations to the contrary. This encourages critical thought, which is a high calling indeed!
One really interesting bit is the degree to which Vic's ability to conjure authentic feels from the players constitutes a transcendent sort of "intelligence" which exists in the problem space defined by him and the players with whom he interacts.
In this model, he is not wholly independently sentient...but his contributions to those players helps them calibrate the subtleties of their OWN sentience. Thus, in a sense, within the space of their interactions, they are not 'perfectly' sentient either.
Thus, by the nature of his interactions with players, Vic--while not wholly sentient as such--helps conjure a co-created *sentience space,* wherein he is essentially a co-equal partner.
Pardon meanderings. But also take them as a compliment: you've planted some TASTY seeds here!
Cheers!
So was Control a true AI? It was attempting to grow by obtaining massive amounts of information but maybe that was just its programming?
I'd say yes. It broke its programming when it went rogue, creating its own goals. It might not have been a fully formed AI, but maybe it was and just had a very human trait of self-doubt in thinking it needed 'upgrading' to perform its tasks. I'm sure it was never programmed to kill the Admirals or impersonate them, let alone take over the bodies of corpses. It was supposed to be a command and control adjutant, essentially - and it rapidly became something else entirely.
I like to think that it developed general intelligence as a means to an end, and it would have been interesting to see it develop further. I was convinced that it was somehow the seed of the borg until the plot went a different direction.
@@jameshughes3014 I think it's still very well could be. Just not shown on screen. I have such a hard time believing that Leland contained all of control when he died.
@@jackweiss7441 here's hoping. It was a great plot line
Before I even watch this, I just want to say that I FREAKING LOVE VIC!!! Now I shall full screen, press play and enjoy.
Because Vic couldn't change things when the lounge became a casino proves he's a limited AI at most not a full functioning AI so he'd be a very in depth program that's just my assessment.
The DS9 crew couldn't change it back without playing the casino story through either. If the doctor in voyager was a true AI I would like to point out he couldn't affect ships programs even turning himself off until he was given the permission by Janeway.
I think the episode just shows that Vic is a separate program from the casino - he's just able to manipulate it like a regular person (and honestly, better in many ways). The Jack In The Box just severed that function, and forced him to be a player trapped in the game with none of the user privileges.
And him being limited in his desires is just like anyone else. If we took someone from the 1960's and brought them into the future they'd not suddenly have modern perspectives. His programming is the same as our own experiences and memories, and the longer he's turned on the more he becomes like we are.
7:30 with the program "accepting" player input it seems like its a sort of "code injection". certain actions can "inject" a change pf parameters inorder for the holodeck program to compensate for players actions. could also just be an adaptive program that can "yes and" what players do. still means though that even if vic had total control of his own program he could only come up with what the holodeck could think of.
I think the truth is more muddy than that.
The Doctor changes his program around not just because he's sentient but because of a desire to be more than he currently is, he's a medical doctor and he's always wanted to help everyone else but he also has his own goals and aspirations. And more importantly he's not content with just doing what he can do when he knows that he can do more and be more.
Vic on the other hand is content with being an entertainer, so even if he was able to change his own program like the Doctor could, he probably wouldn't. He likes to entertain people and he likes helping them with their personal problems in the way he currently knows how, so self improvement is probably not something he would be as interested in.
In addition to that, the Doctor had issues fitting in at first which gave him yet another reason to change, and he's a much more ambitious person as his later escapades show.
Barkley was asked by Picard to watch over and keep the data cube that Moriarty was in.
Dr Zimmerman would be very interested in studying the Moriarty hologram.
So there would be a holodeck on Jupiter Station dedicated to Moriarty for research
I mostly agree with this video, but I do have a comment. The EMH, although clearly sentient, was not designed to be so. He developed sentience almost an accident through being kept on almost constantly. The fact that he could activate and deactivate himself may have also played a part. Vic also eventually found himself with those attributes and may eventually have become sentient.
The mirror universe Vic being a meat person never bothered me. It was obviously just the human being Felix had used as a physical template.
‘It’s Only a Paper Moon’ was such a beautifully executed episode.
He's like The Doctor, holodeck Moriarty or Minuet.
...and Haley 🙂
Maybe you can do an episode on: Star Trek: Voyager episode "The Swarm" and how the merge of the Diagnostic program maxis with the doctor changed the doctor? Or maybe it didn't? Maybe the merger of the maxis allowed the Doctor to expand greatly beyond what he was originally allowed to do. Plus, I'm sue the Crew help the doctor to modify his programing of time.
I guess my question is how is the Voyager Doctor set apart frim his Bothers (copies)?
I have another topic on holographic technology that you could cover, and that would be the advanced medical uses that where shown across TNG, DS9 and Voyager.
TNG had them use a holographic projection to create a temporary spine for Worf.
DS9: I don't recall any.
Voyager had a weird one where B'Elanna Torres had a baby projected into her and gave birth.
I think a distinction needs to be made between his program, and the overall program made which featured him. Him not being able to control the overall program, just like the others couldn't, doesn't mean that his program itself can't change.
Plenty of sentient individuals are locked out of the holodeck controls.
@Certifiably Ingame So what do we have to do to get a story arc in STO to get Vic Fontaine involved? Or even better a story arc that ends in getting Vic Fontaine as a reward as a Bridge officer (or "BOff")???
Perhaps (in game) someone finds an old holo program at Quark's on DS9 that leads to a bigger mystery to the whereabouts of....that leads the player on a wild goose chase across the galaxy including a lot of other fondly remembered holo characters?
I love Vic, and I believe he's sentient, like the doctor. But we got to see the doctor develop over seven years, while we only got to see vic for a short time towards the end of DS9.
Also, I thought mirror Vic was an android.
This was a good clip. I’d love to see further analysis of Voyager’s EMH. I always thought that he was the best Pinocchio in the ST franchise, even better than Data. To this day, I remember that episode “Author, Author” where the EMH wrote a trashy holo-novela that was supposed be an allegory about his being an oppressed minority/slave. That whole episode was messy AF, LOL
I think the whole point of characters like, The Doctor, Moriarty, the residents of Fair Haven, the Exocomps, The nanite civilization, even Data himself, is to challenge our beliefs as far as personhood. Together they provide us with a spectrum of possibilities and ask us to say ‘where is the line’ between ‘person’ and ‘character’. I think Star Trek’s message is pretty consistent and clear. At some point, behaviour becomes complex enough that we just have to throw up our hands and assume sentience.
Now now now wait a minute..... Vic Fontaine is a singer... He was given a WHOLE world of his own inside his program, and he was never given hollo emitters outside that environment. He was exactly what he wanted to be an entertainer making people happy. When the jack in the box activated... him being locked out was part of the game... but he rose to the challenge. The Doctor was confined to his office and had desires to leave his confined space, then he was given further access outside that office. But he was still trapped.......on a single ship with the rest of his mates.
I've long held the head canon that the fancier holodeck systems utilize special processing and storage matrix that lends itself (unintentionally) to AI emergence. This is based on the fact that the holodeck systems are clearly separate from a ships main computer, and can even run when completely isolated from the main computer core. Additionally, while a holo program can be transmitted as normal data, it is never really seen being run on a regular computer. This scenario would also explain a few weird instances, like the EMHs being used as slave labor, and that episode of Voyager where the alien police are trying to arrest holograms. I imagine this is probably due to some kind of advanced, adaptive, processing that's needed to make holo programs be able to respond like real people and skip the uncanny valley issues.
Here is a thought. During the TNG episode Measure of a Man, Data is determined to be a living being and granted the same rights as everyone else. Using the same criteria from Data's trial, would Vic Fontaine count as a living being?
DATA was/is, Hardware and Software, but the Holo stuff, is only Software , with hardware , apart from the Holodeck (Box thing), with the sliding doors/arch)
When I first watched DS9 I thought Vic was gonna be some sort of Dominion manipulated program and that there was gonna be some story thing about it.
Is there a video about Morn?
When your holodeck goes Doki Doki Literature Club. God I can just imagine the poor soul who finds an old copy Doki Doki and is dump enough to recreate that in the Holodeck.
NO! If anyone dares bring that program on my ship. I will actively see them out the nearest airlock! My ship. My rules! I am the law! Federation Laws be damned.
I always believed he based on Mel Torme? NO IDEA WHY, it's just who I associated him with upon seeing him and the setting.
I'd argue Vic Fontaine is like The Doctor when The Doctor was first activated. The Doctor was ONLY ever intended to be a backup doctor, and this is made clear in the beginning of Voyager as well as the episode where his holographic matrix needed repaired due to accumulating too much knowledge. In fact, at first, he didn't even conceive the idea of exceeding his original programming (and neither did the EMH Mark II on the Prometheus!).
However, unlike Vic Fontaine who had the luxury of staying on a space station in his own little world, The Doctor was forced to adapt in order to service the Voyager crew in the unfamiliar Delta Quadrant. Therefore, it makes complete sense that The Doctor would develop as an actual living person where Vic Fontaine simply didn't have to. I think Vic would've been capable of doing this if the circumstances required him to do so.
I believe Vic to be a 'True' A.I. as he does act outside of his programming as evidenced by his use of the station communication to contact Odo directly. No holodeck character would be written to be able to do this as it would be a truly disruptive 'virus' of a program. Like having Kira's Lancelot contacting Kira in Ops after she punched him for attempting to kiss her. I do agree that Felixs' Jack in the box program was written in, as a game, Vic himself, while still acting on programming, was still overall a character outside of the overall program. Similarly, The Doctor was going to be a doctor even though his interests outside of his programming did not directly relate to the treating of patients.
I would say that a program as sophisticated as Vic, and aware of reality, will, with enough time, effectively become fully sentient.
The argument made about the limitations during "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" have to be imposed because the first thing both Vic and the crew tried to do was just fix it with commands to the computer. Once they knew that couldn't be done they then had to work out the plan. The thing is, as others have mentioned The Doctor also had to be granted access to his program and it could be revoked relatively easily by the crew and others.
The Doctor also started aware of his nature, and was content with it for quite some time before his curiosity, and later technology, allowed him to experience more than the sickbay and a holodeck. And through all the growth he remains at his core an EMH first. It really isn't till he's been running for more than 5 years before he seriously starts considering being something other than a doctor with the ECH, an opera singer and then a founder of a holographic civilization. It's almost like a child growing into an adult, give Vic enough time and he could easily grow to same level.
My head cannon for Vic was an experimental candidate for digitizing human consciousness. The process worked, but he lost all his memories, and they set up the program to keep him content until one day he decides to turn himself off, not to be turned back on.
there is a short story that it isn't vic fontaine but the pup program from the probe
Yo dudes, awesome video as always! I've got a weird ol' question here, can anyone get me a link or a direct name of the song that kicks in at 8:47? It's got some mondo Star Control vibes and I'd love to grab a hold of it to listen to whilst I game-dev. Cheers!
ihope we see vic fontaine again in a future show
IDK if he was an AI but he was absolutely a mack. Dude was banging every photonic floozy in the lounge.
It's an interesting topic, one of my favorite in the whole franchise. How would they canonically measure general AI? I think we'd have to look to the episode of the next generation where they had the trial about DATA. I think Vic fits the arguments of that episode. What amazes me is that from time to time holograms would just become sentient, and yet starfleet never developed any kind of test or program to detect it happening. You'd think they have a huge reaction after Moriarty and pass some laws, install an antivirus or something. But they seemed perfectly ok with allowing sentient beings to just pop into existence or be created by fiction authors of holodeck programs.
I don’t know… I don’t really see any evidence of the Doctor’s sentience that doesn’t apply to Vic. Or any evidence of Data’s, for that matter. That is to say, if any of them are sentient, it’s hard to say that they’re all not.
There's a term in a HFY series that I like for these: "Digital sapient."
Holographic characters are sentient, but their experiences are bound to the narrative structure of the holoprograms. They're restricted AIs. They can make smart decisions and behave by their set personality within the setting, but cannot process anything beyond the setting.
So they're "people" within the programs, rather than glorified logic trees. Sure, the base personality, motivations, body of knowledge and likely pre-set responses are set by the programmers, but the "person" takes it from there.
Actually, having an artificial personality might be easier to program than making a logic tree of set responses or actions for such a character from scratch.
What about Badgey? He is a self-aware hologram and capable of moving beyond his program by choosing to attempt to murder his creator.
Vic Fontaine's a weird case. He's kinda like Moriarty in that he was created to be effectively fully sentient and aware by the parameters of the program he's a part of. Thing is, we've only seen him display that within the context of that program. He doesn't display any interest or knowledge about the world outside, unlike Moriarty, so we don't know if he's actually able to function independently of the base program he's a part of like Moriarty can.
He's exactly like Moriarty, but his motivations differ, but both are just software running in a system, so we should ask the question: are the Enterprise D and DS9 both intelligences?
@@talideon
Moriarty was able to directly access the Enterprise D's computer and even helm controls and is even eventually stored separate from the program that originally created him. I'm willing to accept "similar", not "same" - that would be like saying Data and a sentient Exocomp are the same. Vic is sentient but we don't know his functions or capabilities beyond that.
As for the Enterprise D and DS9, that's extremely complex, as both are made up of multiple computers with various functions and capabilities. Plus, there's the fact that a computer could run multiple programs of varying levels of intelligence or self-awareness. The equivalent would be like a sentient being having a primary sentient brain and multiple, non-sentient sub-brains within their body, and then that primary brain is in turn able to run multiple separate consciousnesses of varying levels of intelligence within it. I can't categorize the entirety of the Enterprise D or of DS9 as intelligent, but I can categorize their primary central computers and any qualifying programs running on them as such.
@@VestedUTuber Yes, he was, and we'd hope that vulnerability was subsequently patched.
@@VestedUTuber Also, to make it clear: the fact that a *set of processes* on those machines demonstrated genuine sentience out of nowhere ought to have cause a crisis that did not get shown on screen. What I do for a living overlaps with all this: if the system an AI runs on can demonstrate intelligence, that is *huge*, and opens up the possibility of accidentally creating intelligences. Vic is demonstrably sentience and cognisant, even if he still works within limit imposed from without. So do many people: it takes a huge amount of effort to get most people to see beyond externally imposed constraints. Vic demonstrates what would be considered conditioning in human beings, not a lack of sentience.
@@talideon
I never said Vic isn't sentient, you're putting words in my mouth. Or worse, arguing against straw. I'm simply pointing out that while both Vic and Moriarty are both sentient holograms created by a holodeck/holosuite, that's where the similarities end. That's why I brought up Data and the exocomp - they're both sentient machines, but with completely different functionality beyond that. Same thing with the difference between Data and a human, or Moriarty and a human - both sentient, but their sentience is achieved in different ways, and with different capabilities, limitations and functionality.
I think you came to the correct set of conclusions, Ric, though I think you should have leaned a little harder on the fact that The Doctor displayed desire, intention, and the ability to manipulate a dynamic environment; all things which only thinking beings can do (though many living things can solely do the last thing on instinct. Ants, apes, etc).
AI is one of those hard to define things but you know it when you see it. Vic is definitely sentient but he isnt a fully realised autonomous being like Data or Voyager's EMH
Or conversely, he's just happy and satisfied with where he is, and has no interest in moving about like the Doc or Moriarity. He'd rather the universe comes to him than the other way around.
Its an interesting question that is very close to "do androids dream of electric sheep" in here. If a computer program puts all of its processing power into emulating a human mind based on psychological knowledge and predetermined personality traits, is it actually a life form? I mean we have both a conscious and sub-conscious that control and influence what we do and how we act.
I think the real question was that if Vic Fontaine was a smart AI like Moriarty... One has to be both self-learning and self-preserving to be truly smart AI. Basically the AI must be able to loop own output back as input to oneself, work isolated without feedback from other virtual or living creatures.
Vic Fontaine is an AI. He is a fully sentient being within cyberspace. However, much like us (mere humans) within the relatively unrestricted Q Continuum of space, he is grounded enough to know that his entire universe is what he is real within... his tiny little reality that he knows is our little sandbox. If he is ever given a way to interact with the rest of reality outside of the holodeck, he would experience that in the same way Will Riker did when Q made him a Q for a bit. Vic Fontain is an AI, a full person, and he lives within his cyberspace version of a time and space of our reality while he accepted us as supernatural beings that are of a godlike power who are, on a personal level, peers as individuals. His seeing us, gods of his universe, as mere mortals on an individual basis, probably brings him a lot of peace.
Actually I think he made the transition to being a full AI when he was kept on for too long by the crew and eventually made 26/7. The most powerful holograms seem to straddle that borderline but it is the time that they are online that finally flips the switch. I mean I do not think all of the holographic doctors that are used occasionally ever push past the line, only the Voyager doctor who has to be on for long long periods, and ends up treated like they are real and make permanent attachments adopt that trait.
Isn't there an instance of Vic tapping into an unrelated comm system? I feel like that might be a "Beyond the scope of programming" kind of situation. Also, regarding the heist episode. Vic lost his "powers" which could've been part of a lockout as part of the jack-in-the-box trojan, right? I mean think about it - if that were the case, why couldn't Obrien have overridden it instead? Naw, that tells me that there's some kind of software defense to prevent tampering with the program in the first place and as such Vic's Access was just as useless as any other sentient being's access was.
IMO this subject is what Star Trek was building to from TOS through VOY. Since then everything they make has been earlier in the chronology and hasn't added to the subject. Then, as I expected, the first thing they give us after VOY, Picard, continues on the subject with Jean Luc himself becoming an AI.
Dependent on the quality of programming I think.
In DS9, there’s that episode where the holosuite characters become physical matter and can exit the program room. I mean they said it was “magic” or “belief” but idk if that counts.
Vic Fontaine was the most powerful AI hologram in the ST universe. He could operate beyond the holosuite, access DS9 systems like communications and data outside of the holosuite, and change anything he wants within the holosuite. He even sleeps!
Can we take a second and think about how well-written Vic Fontaine is as a video game storyteller/GM despite being written in the era of the N64.
I feel another significant example was missed here, that of the Hirogen-created holograms.
"Not all of us were programmed with your, uh, spiritual beliefs."
Didn't Vic Fontaine use means outside of his program to communicate with someone via his communicator on DS9? I think it was Sisko. So he tapped into something which most likely wasn't part of his program. Maybe he just chooses to stay in his environment or is constrained by something... The lines are blurry indeed
I'd argue that Vic's inability to change the narrative on his own might be indicative as him being no longer bound by the program. The program changed around him, rather than him changing with it. He's shocked, genuinely bothered that he has no control over his setting anymore. He had agency, and is disturbed when that agency is taken away. And ironically gets his agency back by playing out the scripted part with his friends. The story as programed still doesn't recognize him as a valid player but he's disconnected himself from the larger program enough to be his own unique entity.
oh, follow up. as for changing and growing, I's also argue that being in his lounge interacting with gests is his method of doing that. He's meeting people, making friends and helping people. He was programed for that, sure, but through that he's changed and grown until, like with Paper Moon, he's able to use those tools to help in a way he probably wasn't intended to. he's a reflection of DS9 itself, he doesn't travel and go out into the universe to meet new people, they come to him.
Fair Haven and Moriarty are examples of this. I think in star trek if you over engineer a hologram. Like putting your heart and soul into creating one such hologram. A similar example was a tng episode (I forget which) were there were small flying machines that could fly and became sentient and Data advocated for them.
I could be wrong but does Julian say it's a custom program made for h im? If that's the case maybe Felix made Vic a true A.I sense it was a custom order?
The doctor was only able to alter his own program because Janeway was asked by Kess of THe Doctor's status as a member of the crew. So I'm sure Vic could be given those abilities if Julian asked someone to do it for him.