According to an Enterprise episode where they met "emotional" Vulkans, Surak had a two-part plan to deal with emotions. The first part was to bring emotions under control, the second was to re-integrate them into the Vulcan psyche. Vulkans only did the first part, actually just burying emotions deeper. When Vulkans age or become ill, they can lose control as was seen with Sarek.
@@waynemarvin5661 I do know Vulcan is spelled with a C. I have watched Star Trek since the first episode aired on TV. Instead of addressing the point I was making, you engage in an adhominem attack because of spelling.
This is a really interesting way of looking at the development of Vulcan society, I like it. Can’t help but wonder if the second part of Surak’s plan might resurface some day due to the influence of figures like Spock or the reunification that eventually results in Ni’Var and the influence of their emotional Romulan cousins
I had an epiphany the first time I saw the DS-9 episode "Take me out to a holosuite". In that episode, it's stated that Dr Bashir is physically equal to a Vulcan. That's due to his genetic engineering. In previous episodes we had seen he was also mentally equal to a Vulcan. But we have never seen this with Romulans. They don't do calculations in their heads, or know vast amounts of information. And until JJTrek, Romulans had never been shown as physically superior to humans. For example, Kirk punched one out to steal a cloaking device in "The Enterprise Incident". Even Picard beat one in "Unification" pt 2. And just how often did Picard win fights? So, a genetically engineered human is equal to a Vulcan, while Romulans are on a level with normal humans. The implication for Vulcans and Romulans is obvious. This is what came to me. Vulcan scientist developed genetic engineering as their civilization advanced. Some Vulcans with enhanced genes were created. And like Khan, they decided they were superior. A eugenics war was fought. And in this war, the enhanced side won. The unenhanced Vulcans had to flee offworld. Or at least some of them fled. There would have been many who could not. But all the Vulcans alive in the Star Trek era are descended from the enhanced. The unenhanced Vulcans who were trapped on that world don't seem to have any descendants. The Vulcans we know constantly say they have a dark side. That they are more savage than humans. That they have done far worse than us. And they need logic to keep it under control. They won't give details on exactly what they've done. But the hidden reason is obvious. It's genocide. There are no descendants of unenhanced Vulcans because they were killed. All of them. Perhaps billions of them. Then, the enhanced Vulcans turned on each other. Only abandoning emotion saved them from extinction. And they can never go back, because Khan still lives inside each of them. That's why Vulcans who lose their emotional control quickly turn violent. The Romulans, whatever their faults, don't have this problem. They do not need logic to keep them from destroying themselves. But they remember. They know they are refugees from genocide. That their weakness almost killed them. And that knowledge has shaped their culture.
Funny how Spocks father, once said that the reason Vulcans was so cautious with humans, was because there was only one species that reminded them of there selves. And that was humans.
I have wondered for some time about the phrase “driven to”. All the examples of out of control pon far have been from Vulcans cut off from their spouses or potential mates. “Every seven years” may be mandatory but that doesn’t mean that Vulcans in a marriage are limited to that. It is only when the basic drives that all beings normally possess are being denied that the urge becomes uncontrollable.
Totally interesting, but more interesting is the fact there are more to Vulcans and Romulans, what about the primitive "proto-vulcan" humanoids that populate some class "M" planets in different parts of the Alpha Quadrant?
I suspect that many of the proto-Vulcans races seen are descendants of lost Vulcan colony worlds that had had some type of world ending reset button pressed.
Spock theorized that Vulcans were descended from Sargon's People. And it was also stated that the species didn't actually evolve on Vulcan. So even Vulcan itself is a colony world. There seems to be a rather large Vulcan Diaspora.
@@RRW359 Agreed there should be planets with populations similar to other Federation species. Bolians and Andorians both being blue may have additional similarities. Vulcan like examples - in addition to having lost colonies or Sargon's claim to possibly founding various worlds- should have many unrelated examples throughout the Galaxy.
Vulcans do produce alcoholic beverages don't they? How does drunkenness effect their personality. Didn't the TOS Enterprise get stuck in an anomolie that made everyone seem drunk? Did Spock lose control? Or just get sleepy?
It has been implied that a vulcan without emotional suppression might suffer some neurological damage as well. Which could be why they do border on the psychotic when those barriers are brought down, or they appear to be in pain.
Intriguing. Currently reading "Uncertain Logic", a Enterprise continuation novel. The teachings of Surak and their importance for the Vulcan people is a central element of discussion in this book. This theory fits in nicely with that book.
This theory does make sense to me, In humans, the suppression of emotion only amplifies them in the long term making even more volatile like a volcano. It would make sense that Vulcans, (Since in Star Trek all humanoids share a partial common ancestor because the Preserves implanted part of their DNA into the DNA of pre-existing organisms across the Galaxy (It is in a TNG episode as well as a STO story arc)) whos entire society is based on the suppression of said emotion can lead to damaging effects in said society. Like you said about Vulcans in ENT who did not truly follow Surak's teachings, it could be possible that original teachings were the idea of controlling of emotion through rather than the suppression of it was distorted over time and caused the problems the Vulcans have seen by the shows and movies. Likewise in Star Wars the Jedi are the same way. In an attempt to avoided falling and being controlled by the dark side they would suppress all emotion, only to ironically make themselves actually more vulnerable to it. Further into the future we see Vulcans like Spock (who is still half human) who don not completely give in to their emotions but instead use their emotions to help guide them as well as logic. Apologize this comment is as long as it is but I just had this all on my mind. To Certifiably Ingame or anyone else, thanks for reading.
That's not actually true. What we find is people indulging their strong emotions tend to experience them more than those who don't. What does happen is if people go to the extreme of trying to inhibit all of their emotions, they don't learn coping strategies when they can't totally suppress it, leading to them being more likely to "lose control". But that's a skills lacking, not a "bottling up" effect
Allan5366; When you say "people go to the extreme of trying to inhibit all of their emotions", that is exactly what the Vulcans are doing. While I may agree with you that is can be a skill lacking and not a "botting up" effect, that is only true some of the time, it depends on the person and the circumstances. Sometimes it can go either way. In real life after a trauma, a person whether or not they have developed coping strategies may close themselves up and that will often case harmful effects later on. Plus not coping strategies may not be effective in that moment in time and it would be more healthy to express that emotion in a safe way. I do understand the points you are making and I agree with some of them, however I disagree with others.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 The case of trauma is because they are usually only controlling the outward appearance of emotions, which can help, but they're still ruminating and suchforth, which continues to make the associations and neural links stronger, which means dealing with them later is that much harder
@@Allan5366 in my experience it’s kind of both. Suppress and they build up “pressure”, but indulge and you can “feed the fire”. There’s a middle-ground where you consciously let them out without making them stronger, so that you’re not controlled by them (as happens with both extremes).
Well I'd say partially right. The Romulans are likely a milder version of the Ancient Vulcans since it appears that the Romulans have had certain aspects of their biology such as the ability to mind meld bred out of the gene pool. Which probably took a few other traits with it.
it's like the evolved version, so to speak. like primitive humans compared to the humans of a more civilized world... even if it's the 14th century and we have conquistadors, slavery, etc.... at least it's less of a chaotic tribal-violence thing.
The introduction of the Va'Tosh Ka'Tur does indicate the existence of other Vulcans who embrace Syobk's philosophies. It still makes us wonder even more what Sybok did that got him exiled from Vulcan. That kind of punishment for simply going against social norms doesn't seem consistent with Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
There are many examples of Vulcans doing and saying things that go against IDIC. Sarek marrying a human and then having conflicts with his son. Spock's trouble with the Vulcan science academy. The conflict with Andoria and repressing humanity. That's what I can remember at the moment.
Well, that ship in _Enterprise_ was sort of in exile too, albeit somewhat self-imposed, and there was that senator who’d disowned his son over joining.
The fact that He went against the teachings Surak and took on the beliefs of his mother explained in the ST-V novel and we see it in the film. That is why Sarek divorced her and eventually married Spock's mother Amanda.
I tend to believe Vulcan has a dominant culture & sub cultures. They all share certain principles & beliefs, but how they interpret & live out Surak's teaching can be somewhat different. IDIC would allow for this. But the more austere Vulcans who the majority recognize as 'Vulcans" are the dominant culture, in my opinion."
So the Va'Tosh Ka'Tur were correct! Surak never meant to repress all emotion, he wanted to simply control them. And you know, I always wondered how Vulcans deal with feelings that are not necessarily emotional but hormonal. What do they do when they are physically attracted to someone? Take that time for example, when Archer suddenly realized how hot T'Pol was. How do Vulcans react in those situations? They meditate the boner away?
I want to see this episode on "Enterprise". One day, a Vulcan woman fell into Johnathan Archer's lap, but it wasn't T'Pol. His trusted Sci Officer would be nowhere near to warn or worry over her adventurous captain because they would disagree and go their separate ways during "liberty on Vulcan". He and this Vulcan woman would fall so hard for each other at first contact it would be painful to watch. We could study how Vulcans act when taken by the strong emotions of wanting someone. She would be a woman from the upper class or from high echelons of the Science Academy faculty or somehow forbidden to touch. Let me see Johnathan Archer forced to leave her after the "liberty". T'Pol would wonder what happened as Archer turned away, dismissing her to continue mourning, remembering alone.
@@EdiaStanfordBruce Well, it would be interesting to have T'Pol in that mix as well. Maybe make her a bit jealous? It would be funny to see a jealous vulcan.
Alternatively, the Vulcans achieved their technological zenith prior to a time when a neurological instability, perhaps spread unbeknownst to themselves by mindmelds, led to them becoming extremely volatile. It's not uncommon for humans to develop sensitivities or even allergies after going prolonged periods exposed to substances without difficulty, so perhaps their neurology gradually have shifted in a similar way. Proto-Vulcans and Romulans may have abandoned melding to preserve themselves, or its absence could have been a physiological response to a "contagion", but those who remained behind may have used logic and immense willpower to control the effects, or reactions, to the neurological strains or even damage imposed by melding, and maintained that discipline even after rooting out those they believed to be the spreaders of the "defect", i.e. mindmelders. As a related alternative, perhaps those who remained on Vulcan chose to retain their mindmelding abilities at great danger to themselves in the belief that they could use logic to control its effects. The Romulans and others, thinking it lunacy to persist with exposing themselves to such peril, departed the planet to save themselves. In the subsequent and self-edifying Vulcan retellings, they "abandoned" logic. Once finding Vulcan again, the Romulans may then have enacted their anti-melding strategy as outlined in the video. Or it's all dogmatic nonsense, with the truth being they're closer to Romulans and humans than they'd like to believe and their history washed clean of contradictory evidence through devotion to their faith and, of course, the near obliteration of their infrastructure.
IIRC there was a Next Generation episode where the Federation and the Romulans were fighting over an ancient Vulcan super weapon that was thought to be a myth. The weapon was based around the Vulcan's mental abilities, and it's biggest set back was that the user's subconscious rage and desires could manifest from it against the user's will. At the end, they posited that this super weapon that nearly destroyed that ancient Vulcans was what led to them suppressing their emotions. It was only mentioned in this one episode, and it seemed Trek has ignored it ever since.
Vulcan Ambassador Soval: We don't know what to do about Humans. Of all the species we've made contact with, yours is the only one we can't define. You have the arrogance of Andorians, the stubborn pride of Tellarites. One moment, you're as driven by your emotions as Klingons, and the next, you confound us by suddenly embracing logic. Admiral Maxwell Forrest: I'm sure those qualities are found in every species. Vulcan Ambassador Soval: Not in such confusing abundance. According to Soval Humans are more emotional than Vulcans. This is what scares Vulcans than Humans do not need to suppress their emotions to function. My guess is that humans are this way because of the different geographical locations that humans have had to survive evolve on.
I don't think that when Vulcans 'repress' their emotions they would use methods that would result in the pent up rage, at least not in the same way or to the extent you would by ignoring your feelings. Its to my understanding they use meditation to help understand the need behind the emotions and respond in a way that is rational, or to simply be aware of how it affects them so they can act without it affecting their reason.I don't think this is unhealthy if you do it right, its just practicing mindfulness, they aren't actually repressing their emotions. And I believe I heard some where in the show that pon far (and its call to mate) is the most ancient part of their people, I think the romulans don't have it simply because of reman ancestory.
Maybe emotions are like energy you can’t just bottle up your emotion and expect them to stay bottled up sometimes things will seep out or in a punny way volcanically explode every now and then
You can clearly see though that even those Vulcans who seem extremely logical are not only more emotional then they claim to be, they are also seemingly unable to realize it. I remember once in voyager, (I’m about to paraphrase this dialogue so bear with me) Neelix said something to Tuvok like “you must be really nostalgic about that time in your life.” Tuvok replied with something like “as a Vulcan I do not experience nostalgia, however when I look back on that part of my life, I am pleased that I was there” or some shit, and I just thought “congratulations Mr. Tuvok; that’s nostalgia.” Those emotions are still there, and they still bubble up from time to time.
I think Trek can be somewhat inconsistent about this. Older Spock and that ambassador lady in _Enterprise_ suggest that they do as you say (“they’re our emotions too - we just hide them better”), which is similar to real life buddhism, and Tuvok talking Kim through the “deconstruction” of love fits in that mould too. But there’s also the Kolinahr which is said to be a “complete purging”, and _Voyager_ and _Enterprise_ also discuss “emotional suppression centres” of the brain quite frequently. Perhaps this could be resolved as simply saying there’s different schools of thought on Vulcan, as to whether Kolinahr is necessary or whether a balance can be achieved; but really I think it’s just a conflicting narrative within writers rooms.
Thanks, I enjoyed that. Lots of things about Vulcans in canon make little sense but I suppose they are alien and as humans we will always find them mystifying. In recent years it seems it was forgotten that Vulcans were peaceful, tolerant and open minded and they were disappointingly written as xenophobic and arrogant. Sigh. Also I think it would have been fun if they had developed the Romulans as essentially Evil Vulcans but it is what it is. Out of interest, there is lurking somewhere on youtube an 'interview' between Gene Rodenberry and Sarek of Vulcan. They talk about pon farr and all sorts. Quite interesting if somewhat prurient.
Many long years ago I was reading a series of Star Trek books that explain the Pon'Farr as being similar to elephants here on Earth where the male goes into a "Musk" every so many years and as such the female has to be ready to mate whenever that occurs therefore it was the males that suffered the fits of rage and the females were pretty much ready and willing to mate whenever that opportunity occurred.
Not only have we yet to hear of the Romulans having a hard estrus cycle (more commonly known as Pon Farr), but I have yet to hear of a Romulan getting Bendii Syndrome either. A condition which I also believe is an effect of a lifelong suppression and subsequent burying of emotion long term.
It would be a great thing to dig farther into the Romulans. Then, we'll see what happened to them when they wandered in space looking for a place to go when they fled Vulcan.
We actually know very very little about Romulan physiology in canon. Aside from what we can SAFELY assume from their Vulcan heritage. For example; we didn't know Romulans had Vulcan "super-human" strength until Star Trek 2009 came out, because it had never been depicted on screen in canon until Nero was effortlessly holding up Kirk by the jaw Darth Vader style. We also as yet have no reason to believe they share in the percentage of the Vulcan population which is capable of limited telepathic abilities. To my knowledge it has never even been explained why most Romulans have prominent brow ridges.
My joke name for those episode from Enterprise Season 4 is "The 'We're Sorry For How Badly We've Written Every Vulcan Not Named Tuvok For The Last Ten Years' Trilogy."
*What makes Tuvoc so great? He was a token black Vulcan character - that's it. And **_Enterprise_** was a much better show than Voyager, and the Vulcans in **_Enterprise_** may have seemed out of character due to the fact that the Vulcans were experiencing a relapse in terms of their adherence to emotional control - until Surak's Katric Arc is discovered.*
I've wondered if Plak-Tow (the Blood Fever that most often goes along with Pon'Farr) is actually CAUSED by the suppression of emotion. Pon'Farr is a emotionally unstable state and every little pent-up feeling finds it's way to the surface in an explosion of frustration and anger. I've also wondered if Bandi Syndrome is also caused by emotional supressions. Maybe the Va'Tosh Ka'Tur rarely is ever sufferer from these two disorders? :)
Your hypothesis would fit humanity very well. I believe it would also fit Vulcan-human mixed species. However, if you watch the extremes of spock and his brother, (I forget which movie it was), Spock had nearly achieved kolinar status, albeit doubtful by their fathers assessment at that point, but his brother had chosen to live with his raw emotions, uninhibited by their suppression by logic. I wish i could remember which movie. The plot has Kirk, not yet elevated to Starfleet Admiralty , but being considered. Enterprise is in continuous exploration mode, when Spock's half brother, (never mentioned in the series to my knowledge), arrives on Enterprise to Spock's barely concealed chagrin. (The plot hints that the full blooded Vulcan earned Spock's anger and rejection when they were children, by allowing his half-sibling to be taunted, hazed,and bullied by his peers because of his human half, (which, as far as many highly intelligent 'Trekkies ' believe, Mr. Spock has not simply got a handle on, - but has conquered to the Vulcan level of kolinar enlightenment. ) And as we all know, children of any
I had always had a 'head canon' for the existence of Pon'Farr: the taking up of Logic and the control of emotions led to a decrease in Vulcan population, as practitioners of Surak's teachings were deciding to also practice celibacy (whether or not Surak himself actually taught that). So those in charge came up with a new 'psionic technique' to make sure the Vulcan species would propagate: Emplanting in the minds of newborns a urge to mate each 7 years after attaining maturity, one so strong that it would eventually overcome any mental controls to not do so. Again, no where near 'official', but liked it ^_^
I see this interest link: Vulcans can be telepathic; Vulcans must endure Pon'Farr. However Romulans do not have Pon'Farr; Romulans are not telepathic. Spock was a half-Human half-Vulcan. In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, this half-Vulcan was able to telepathically sense the "thought patterns of perfect logic from V'ger" from several light years away. What-if, Vulcans are unconsciously picking up on background psychic gestalt of all the sentient races of the Milky Way galaxy via passive psychic ability ? Essentially sucking up the "background crazy" of all sentient lifeforms in the galaxy. Consciously Vulcans are using logic to supress their own emotional impulses. Meanwhile unconsciously, their passive telepathy "drinks up" all the background emotional energy. As the sentient species of the galaxy discover warp drive, the start colonizing the stars and the background psychic gestalt increases. If this theory is correct, then Vulcan Pon'Farr would be a release mechanism to dump this "background crazy". Also that if one goes back in time, the further one goes into Vulcan's past, the intensity of Pon'Farr would decrease. This also would mean that going into Vulcan's future would see the intensity of Pon'Farr increasing. Potentially if a Vulcan starship got caught in the intergalactic void between galaxies, the Vulcans there may not experience any Pon'Farr because they are millions of light years from any sentient lifeforms except for their fellow crew members.
This is actually a genius theory and you should tell it to more people. One thing, though. I think it’s more than just pon’far. Every time a Vulcan loses control or even shows a little more emotion than is considered proper could be tied to this. Much of Star Trek lore backs this up. Consider Sarek, he was known as an absolute master at mind melding and he was so emotional he up and married a human!
My guess is that Romulans doe not experience Ponn Farr because they just have sex whenever they have the opportunity. Thus, like Humans, they do not have a cycle-based reproductive system because they mate when they want, not according to a schedule.
I think that your theory is brilliant, and the only logical explanation. I have been watching/listening to a number of your shows , Rick , and am enjoying them immensely.
I don't think Romulans dissmissed mediation altogether. SOme of them demonstrate some of the gestures and behaviour similar to Vulcan emotional control. They just do it less dogmatically. I think they still need it to be well balanced just as some humans do. It's like a bonus. Plus we don't know how long the trip between Vulcan and Romulus took, travelling through space possibly for years, surely modified their bio chemistry and their behaviour.
Every since I saw the Romulan Commander in Balance Of Terror, I somewhat guessed that it was the Vulcans who changed not the Romulans. The Romulans were remaining true to who and what they are, or possibly what they imagine they are meant to be. If this is true, than Vulcan's last civil war, before those who would become Romulans left Vulcan, would have been a bloody one. This may also explain the drastic changes to the Vulcan mind set.
Pretty good point it's probably similar to how English language has developed between US and UK. US English is closer to tudor period English than UK English, it's obviously different but closer to that root. May be similar to Romulans and Vulcans in lots of ways. Also for the Romulans to have left and travelled / settled Romulus at all they would need to have had a warp level civilisation or they would still be travelling there!
this makes sense. Just because the Vulcans were violent , erratic, and paranoid doesn't mean they couldn't cooperate to build a civilization. His hypothesis falls apart on this point
Joey Frye it should be noted that while yes every Vulcan of after a certain age. ( after all we've never herd of Vulcan seven year olds or 14 year olds having to go through the pong far, so it's likely takes root once the body is fully grown) has to go the pon far every seven years. It's not as if Vulcans only have sex at that time. Just like humans or any race they get frisky and what to have sex any time they won't, though it's likely that for a Vulcan at the very least, the best chance to reproduce is during pon far. As there are animals on earth that have sex just for shear joy of it but also have sex just to breed and have cycles according. Think of the pon far more like a breeding season, like how certain animals will online start having children in the spring to summer. Or have a migration to a " breeding/ nesting grounds"
Remember that their life span is roughly twice that of a human. Every seven years is actually not a serious population bottleneck when your fertile lifetime could be a century or longer. In fact, Vulcans might suffer fewer complications of pregnancy because their females' bodies have more time to recover between pregnancies.
@@daniels7907 Do the female Vulcans still have a monthly menstrual cycle? Certainly, they wouldn't have theirs only every 7 years and when would they start and end? How long is a Vulcan month and year?
@@virginiaconnor8350 I do not recall *any* species' menstrual cycle being discussed on Star Trek (menopause was mentioned at least once though). Just making a wild guess here, but I would suspect that Vulcan females would menstruate a *lot* less often than human females. They evolved on a desert planet after all, and menstruation is a loss of body water. Doing it frequently would actually be survival threat. So their periods of fertility may also be spread further apart. Which, again, is not really a threat to procreation if the males are not ready anytime, anywhere, like human males. Their longer lifespans mean that they can still produce a lot of kids, and less frequent pregnancies would allow for better recovery between pregnancies.
I kinda agree with your premise. The one thing I haven't been able to figure out it's ok, maybe the suppression of emotions intensified the Pon'Farr but if the nature of Vulcans was so chaotic and even dangerous, how could the Romulans have lasted and thrived as long as they did?
I agree with your take that it was the Romulan infiltration which led to mind melds becoming taboo, not just for the reason you stated but I believe they were also aware that mind melds were the only way Surak’s original teachings could be passed down as they had believed they’d destroyed the original copies (“the _Kir’shara_ is a myth”, after all). Indeed, mind melds passed-on Surak’s katra and led to the destruction of the Romulan influence in Vulcan government.
One over arching point of character development for Spock in TAS movies was that total logic wasn't really enlightenment. He became at peace with his half-human nature, and a source of great wisdom for both humans and Vulcans. It seems reasonable that this would lead to his better understanding of Romuluns as well, and what would lead him to see value in reunification. That there was a place for emotion for him and for other Vulcans as well.
Saavik didn't behave like T'Pol when Spock was in Pon Farr. She was the calm one, like T'Pring. It was the males who were wild. Dr. Phlox, a Denobulan, was able to control T'Pol's cat-like moves. Vulcans are not human, but humanoid so I can't see how they'd know how to behave like a cat, much have heats instead-or also-menses.
I'm saying that there is a "code" in female Vulcan personality and behavior in their "season". If I were one of the "wise ones"/shaman women of old, I would say that there were Le-Matya women, Selat women, and the Rhohansu. Likewise, Le-Matya men, Selat men, and Rhohansu (Romulan like). T'Pol is a Le-matya woman; will claw and climb like a cat. Irritable and short-tempered and easily aroused to violence during Pon-Farr. T'Pring is my example of a Selat woman. Thoughtful, deep channeled, and slow-simmering in contrast to her Le-matya sister. Valaris might be a high-strung Le-matya. Saavik might be a deep, patient Selat woman--Perfect for Selat men like Spock and Sarek. Bet on Saavik to teach a fumbling, very young Spock to be thoughtful of his mate. I would hate to have had T'Pol be in that role. A little fun theory like the pre-Freudian personality theories on earth. In another earth folk knowledge base, there are horse and elephant women.
Vulcans are said to be felinoid rather than simian as we are. That is why if you see the way Vulcans move in that catlike way. The next time you watch T'Pol or Spock move it is very catlike.
Wonderful video man and I completely agree really insitefull .people down play Enterprise but if it wasn't for that show we would not know them in the light we do now thanks man .live long and prosper
I always thought the chaos was caused when they retreated back to Vulcan possibly due to the overcrowding by the returning colonists while the left behind became the Romlians ( their retreat being caused some threat such as an interstellar war or the Borg they were trying to hide from there were plenty of signs that the Alfa quadrant had been devastated at some point in the past and was just starting to clime out of )
In the context of human psychology, it seems reasonable that emotional suppression could lead to more intense emotions, leading to more need for emotional suppression, etc.
I feel like the difference between Vulcans and Romulans after their near destruction was similar to the theory of "logical mind" and "emotional mind". Surak and even Spock were the closest to "wise mind", being able to use both in an almost perfect balance. It's taught in different therapies. I recommend anyone curious about it to do a bit of research. It's pretty damn good stuff
your idea seems to make sense. Humans have to deal with feelings and to a degree suppress them in order to function in society. Which oftentimes results in health problems ranging from ulcers to mental breakdowns. So maybe the vulcans keeping it in for the hundreds of years they live pushing them over the edge makes sense.
I had the street from me years to that Vulcans have to let their emotions out they're mostly like children they don't know how to act with their emotions they never experienced what it means to have emotions like humans do you can see this in Star Trek a lot of times
@5:55 we see the statue of who i presume to be Surak, standing behind the IDIC icon, wearing the Kolinahr robe, very lovely, but then the words, "Live long and prosper" are written in English at the base of the statue where it meets the water. Who thought it should be written in an alien language like English?!
@@wos1223 Eh? You are likely correct... but again why letter it with Earth English? It is a statue of a half-Vulcan, ON Vulcan, AT a famous Vulcan monument site... did they at least write it in Vulcan on the other side of the base? So Vulcans can read it and peer up at Spock's back with one eyebrow lifted in that quizzical expression they are known for?
Enterprise wrecked the Vulcans and it wasn't because of Romulan agents. That's just something the season 4 writers threw in. It wasn't planned from the start.
Considering the lasting effect of behaviour upon physiology - given enough time & natural selection - it is entirely likely that the ancient Vulcans would have evolved in to their current state as you describe; the `Vulcans` that, eventually, became Romulans by fleeing their birth world seem to have an apparent differentiated physiology and psychology in comparison to their Vulcan cousins. The interesting question for me is why did they, the Romulans, leave Vulcan. A number of possibilities arise from canon: was their irradiated planet the reason; were they for intents and purposes defeated but it was pyrrhic victory for the Vulcans that won but stayed to rebuild their home world; the most attractive explanation is that the Vulcans `that marched beneath the raptors wing` were defeated because of the advent of Logic and emotional suppression - the psionic resonator assembled by Captain Picard (TNG:"Gambit, Part I""Gambit, Part II) utilised violent emotion against adversaries effectively translation negative emotion to a repelling force that killed. Captain Picard theorized that the `resonator` was obstructed by [peace] as it become between the objectives of the war & death as depicted upon the resonator itself as a warning to the user. Which offers some explanation as to why that technology was abandoned but it does also suggest that it may also be the reason why Romulans effectively bred out psionic abilities from their own gene pool: they weren`t useful or necessary to cultivate in the refugee caravan that fled Vulcan after their civil war; or they may not have been enough psionically gifted Vulcan/Romulans left after their defeat, and departure, to produce viable potential telepaths in the intervening 1800 years that it took them to rebuild their own militaristic society in to the Romulan Star Empire? Which again explains why they resent those who do still possess the latent abilities and were at pains to suppress it and uplift those who themselves saw it as deviant behaviour in Vulcan society?
I always wondered what exactly happened with the Romulans and why they left, also what caused the change in their foreheads. Plus if they were Vulcans at one point how is that that they seemed to have lost the telepathic abilities that Vulcans have? I can never remember seeing any Romulan use anything like a mind meld for instance and their emotions seem more human than out of control. It makes me wonder if Romulans and Vulcans were more like humans and Neanderthals, similar but different species that lived on the same planet.
The Romulans with their prominent brow ridge says to me that probably specific tribes who abundantly filled the ranks of the military had the most disagreement with Surak. These folk were probably not the top caste mostly. The Vulcans who remained and went with Surak I guess were basically from the upper crust of society. Again, I see that Old Vulcan must have been highly socially stratified. There must have been certain Vulcans who used their psi abilities to dominate, control, and influence--for good and evil. They would have been top-tier telepaths--mind lords--the best of the best. They probably isolated themselves in the mountains away from the armies and the politicians becoming a law unto themselves. (The only vestige we see of this today is in the priests of Gol, the High Priestess of the Kholinar, and the like. Surak convinced them.) This made them dangerous and so any person with a strong psi gift was eradicated among Romulans through state-sponsored selective breeding. I would love to see movies to straighten this "history of the sundered".
We know the Romulans are an offshoot of the Vulcans, but how much removed are they? How much has their divergence resulted in clearly separate traits? It's obvious that despite their highly intelligent and passionate nature, the Romulans do not poses any psionic abilities. Maybe this would explain the lack of extreme violent outbursts as well? Wasn't the Secret of the Vulcan Fury supposed to provide some answers to all of this?
Makes sense, but one could argue that Vulcans are naturally more meotional than humans since their planet is a raging inferno in itself, many violent predators, geologival and weather features making the environment quite hostile and barely suitable for life. Vulcan has higher gravity and thinner air than Earth making its inhabitants have more endurance and stength and more efficient bodies than humans. That also counts. When you have to live and thrive in a hostile environment with hostile predators lirking around, that's no surprise that the lifeforms on that planet are what they are. Ancient Vulcans even created psionic weapons for God's sake ! It would kill rageous enemies and spare stoic allies. All based on emotions, in short. Romulus is slightly better to live on than Vulcan but only marginally so and its sister planet Remus is even worse than Vulcan.
I have always found the difference between the romulans and the vulcans fasincating, would not their differences be adaptation not evolution? they are afterall the exact same species so i think the differences between them stem from change of habitation and obv not suppressing their emotions, perhaps this is why they have the crevases on their forehead perhaps it holds more than just visual benefits.
I'm wondering if sex drive was condemned along with other passions might natural selection have pushed for a more extreme mating cycle. I can definitely imagine those with a less extreme meeting drive choosing not to reproduce.
But given that ever Vulcan and their Sehlat seems to be able to perform a mind meld in canon, when did that all come back? Spock and Tuvok were popping it out every other episode. Actually, come to think of it, why didn't Spock just mind meld with Scotty in TOS: "Wolf in the Fold"?
If 7 years is the amount of time you have before you have to hump or die, maybe you should seek out a slice of pie every four five years. So you don't go crazy. That's called logic.
So minor detail. The statue with “live long” on it… if that is a Vulcan statue on Vulcan wouldn’t the saying be written in Vulcan and not Earth english?
It has long been my opinion that Vulcans have lots more going on than just emotional repression. Spock tells Christine in SNW that "he let something out" in the battle with the Gorn. What is that "thing?" Agreed also that Vulcans probably don't know their real history any more than we do.
In Voyager, TNG and DS9 they had Halodecks, why wouldn't the doctor just dose them and toss them in a ready made halosuite program? Surely this has happened a couple dozen times?
i wonder if there were huge events in the history of the CAITIANs like was for the other species like vulcans and if there are hybrid possibilities for the CAITIANS i hope they do much more episodes and storylines for the many types of the CAITIANS in star trek more often and i think cause the vulcans met the humans and several like archer they vulcans started to gain more control over thier emotions and focus much better thanks to archer kirk even picard meeting like minded individuals helping them gain more control over their emotions and find better alternatives to releasing thier emotions at the right times and not going full on psychopath
Yeah, that happened to me. I suppress a lot of emotion, to the point where I don't even realize I'm doing it anymore, so people take that for weakness and walk all over me. They think it's fun to use me as an emotional punching bag because I don't fight back. Then at some point the suppression fails, and I don't even recognize the monster I become. This means that despite striving to be a good person, I'm the total opposite. I'd give anything to change, but a lifetime of abuse, failure, loneliness, depression, and damage will always cause problems.
memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/All_Our_Yesterdays_(episode) You might want to re-watch this episode for Spock's description of ancient Vulcans behavior pre-logic imposed mind structure.
Perhaps when Vulcan achieved interstellar travel, they compared cultures, and found themselves wanting in some way. It would be odd for a unified culture to doubt itself, unless it was aware of an alternative.
Certifiably Ingame: Please read 'Spock's World' by Diane Duane, she is a fully accredited Star Trek author and her work is Canon. First off, it's not 'suppress emotion,' That was a mistranslation from Archer's time. The Correct translation is 'Passion's Mastery.' They have emotion, only they experience them more intensely due to the dual (Inner & Outer) construction of the Vulcan brain. By meditation and adherence to the lessons of the Kir Shira they have learned not let emotion effect their thoughts or interactions. Surak was well aware what happens when emotions get pent up too long without release: Nuclear war and Vulcan losing a third of its population to the Star's. The largest of this group founding the Romulan Empire about two thousand years ago. Roddenberry wanted to make them his decades 'Communalist Chinese,' instead they became like if Remus had killed Romulus, not the other way around. Vulcan civilization is 100,000 years old and before their own Praxis incident, a Jungle planet.
Season Four of Enterprise, SEASON. There aren't four different tv series featuring Star Trek: Enterprise. You're making the same mistake the British do. It's Season Four.
This sounds more like it's explaining Vulcans not like they are LIKE human, but that they ARE human, that's fine I guess this is fiction, but it's less interesting when it's a judgement comparing human standards than a true analysis of something alien
No it is logical, living beings have emotions to make them interact with their environment, protect themselves in case of danger, coorperate, reproduce... Their is absolutely no reason why Vulcans, mammals close to what humans are (for the exception of the element base of their blood and the emplacement of some organs), would be different. They evolved naturally in their harsh environment, Vulcan is not especially easy to live on so they adapted, their intellect developed as well so they could survive more easily. Hormones, brain chemistry, it is vastly the same as humans, with some minor differences due to evolution and their environment. Plus they also have social behaviour, an organised society and rules, laws and temper, I don't see why we should treat them differently. Granted one must take into account some differences here and there, but those are quite minor. Had Vulcans been a Silicium based lifeform hidden in the sand, yeah they could have been totally different and pointless to compare them. Not being to compare Vulcans and Humans would be as stupid as not being able to compare Humans with Needertaliens...
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
According to an Enterprise episode where they met "emotional" Vulkans, Surak had a two-part plan to deal with emotions. The first part was to bring emotions under control, the second was to re-integrate them into the Vulcan psyche. Vulkans only did the first part, actually just burying emotions deeper. When Vulkans age or become ill, they can lose control as was seen with Sarek.
Vulcans. If you can't spell, don't show off your ignorance.
@@waynemarvin5661 I do know Vulcan is spelled with a C. I have watched Star Trek since the first episode aired on TV. Instead of addressing the point I was making, you engage in an adhominem attack because of spelling.
@@davidbrewer9030 if Wayne didn’t attack your spelling then he would have argue with your point and that would be too hard
@@waynemarvin5661 you’re being an uptight jackass over the name of a fictional alien species
This is a really interesting way of looking at the development of Vulcan society, I like it.
Can’t help but wonder if the second part of Surak’s plan might resurface some day due to the influence of figures like Spock or the reunification that eventually results in Ni’Var and the influence of their emotional Romulan cousins
I had an epiphany the first time I saw the DS-9 episode "Take me out to a holosuite". In that episode, it's stated that Dr Bashir is physically equal to a Vulcan. That's due to his genetic engineering. In previous episodes we had seen he was also mentally equal to a Vulcan.
But we have never seen this with Romulans. They don't do calculations in their heads, or know vast amounts of information. And until JJTrek, Romulans had never been shown as physically superior to humans. For example, Kirk punched one out to steal a cloaking device in "The Enterprise Incident". Even Picard beat one in "Unification" pt 2. And just how often did Picard win fights? So, a genetically engineered human is equal to a Vulcan, while Romulans are on a level with normal humans. The implication for Vulcans and Romulans is obvious.
This is what came to me. Vulcan scientist developed genetic engineering as their civilization advanced. Some Vulcans with enhanced genes were created. And like Khan, they decided they were superior. A eugenics war was fought. And in this war, the enhanced side won. The unenhanced Vulcans had to flee offworld. Or at least some of them fled. There would have been many who could not. But all the Vulcans alive in the Star Trek era are descended from the enhanced. The unenhanced Vulcans who were trapped on that world don't seem to have any descendants.
The Vulcans we know constantly say they have a dark side. That they are more savage than humans. That they have done far worse than us. And they need logic to keep it under control. They won't give details on exactly what they've done. But the hidden reason is obvious. It's genocide. There are no descendants of unenhanced Vulcans because they were killed. All of them. Perhaps billions of them. Then, the enhanced Vulcans turned on each other. Only abandoning emotion saved them from extinction. And they can never go back, because Khan still lives inside each of them. That's why Vulcans who lose their emotional control quickly turn violent.
The Romulans, whatever their faults, don't have this problem. They do not need logic to keep them from destroying themselves. But they remember. They know they are refugees from genocide. That their weakness almost killed them. And that knowledge has shaped their culture.
I thought what you were going for is that Romulans are the unenhanced Vulcans. What's the obvious implication for the Romulans, then?
Try reading the "Spock's World" novel. It deals with a few of those issues.
@danieljliversLXXXIX Actually it was during and after Surak's time that they left
@danieljliversLXXXIX it shows, ignoramus
that's...actually a brilliant theory.
Funny how Spocks father, once said that the reason Vulcans was so cautious with humans, was because there was only one species that reminded them of there selves. And that was humans.
Soval also said this to Forrest, just before the Earth Embassy bombing
And then there's the Andorians.
Damn Vulcan would make great Jedi.
The Padawans would lose their shit once Pon Far hits
I have wondered for some time about the phrase “driven to”. All the examples of out of control pon far have been from Vulcans cut off from their spouses or potential mates. “Every seven years” may be mandatory but that doesn’t mean that Vulcans in a marriage are limited to that. It is only when the basic drives that all beings normally possess are being denied that the urge becomes uncontrollable.
Totally interesting, but more interesting is the fact there are more to Vulcans and Romulans, what about the primitive "proto-vulcan" humanoids that populate some class "M" planets in different parts of the Alpha Quadrant?
What about all the humans on other planets in TOS? Like the Roman civilization or the one in Omega Glory.
I suspect that many of the proto-Vulcans races seen are descendants of lost Vulcan colony worlds that had had some type of world ending reset button pressed.
Spock theorized that Vulcans were descended from Sargon's People. And it was also stated that the species didn't actually evolve on Vulcan. So even Vulcan itself is a colony world. There seems to be a rather large Vulcan Diaspora.
@@3Rayfire I'd personally refrain from using a throw away line from ST:Picard to justify anything.
@@RRW359 Agreed there should be planets with populations similar to other Federation species. Bolians and Andorians both being blue may have additional similarities. Vulcan like examples - in addition to having lost colonies or Sargon's claim to possibly founding various worlds- should have many unrelated examples throughout the Galaxy.
Honestly, it sounds to me like someone just needs to build some gyms on Vulcan and let them take their aggression out on the weight!
Would be worse if a guy gave them steroids and you just have roid rage Vulcans
Vulcans are already like three times stronger than humans though!
@@nomnomgoblin8901 doesn’t meant they can’t get stronger ide find it helpful if someone could lift plus three times thier weight
Vulcans do produce alcoholic beverages don't they? How does drunkenness effect their personality. Didn't the TOS Enterprise get stuck in an anomolie that made everyone seem drunk? Did Spock lose control? Or just get sleepy?
@@kilmcm45 He lost control, after struggling in vain to maintain it. He didn't exactly act drunk. Maybe "sad drunk", if that.
It has been implied that a vulcan without emotional suppression might suffer some neurological damage as well. Which could be why they do border on the psychotic when those barriers are brought down, or they appear to be in pain.
Intriguing. Currently reading "Uncertain Logic", a Enterprise continuation novel. The teachings of Surak and their importance for the Vulcan people is a central element of discussion in this book. This theory fits in nicely with that book.
This theory does make sense to me, In humans, the suppression of emotion only amplifies them in the long term making even more volatile like a volcano. It would make sense that Vulcans, (Since in Star Trek all humanoids share a partial common ancestor because the Preserves implanted part of their DNA into the DNA of pre-existing organisms across the Galaxy (It is in a TNG episode as well as a STO story arc)) whos entire society is based on the suppression of said emotion can lead to damaging effects in said society. Like you said about Vulcans in ENT who did not truly follow Surak's teachings, it could be possible that original teachings were the idea of controlling of emotion through rather than the suppression of it was distorted over time and caused the problems the Vulcans have seen by the shows and movies. Likewise in Star Wars the Jedi are the same way. In an attempt to avoided falling and being controlled by the dark side they would suppress all emotion, only to ironically make themselves actually more vulnerable to it. Further into the future we see Vulcans like Spock (who is still half human) who don not completely give in to their emotions but instead use their emotions to help guide them as well as logic. Apologize this comment is as long as it is but I just had this all on my mind. To Certifiably Ingame or anyone else, thanks for reading.
That's not actually true. What we find is people indulging their strong emotions tend to experience them more than those who don't. What does happen is if people go to the extreme of trying to inhibit all of their emotions, they don't learn coping strategies when they can't totally suppress it, leading to them being more likely to "lose control". But that's a skills lacking, not a "bottling up" effect
Allan5366; When you say "people go to the extreme of trying to inhibit all of their emotions", that is exactly what the Vulcans are doing. While I may agree with you that is can be a skill lacking and not a "botting up" effect, that is only true some of the time, it depends on the person and the circumstances. Sometimes it can go either way. In real life after a trauma, a person whether or not they have developed coping strategies may close themselves up and that will often case harmful effects later on. Plus not coping strategies may not be effective in that moment in time and it would be more healthy to express that emotion in a safe way. I do understand the points you are making and I agree with some of them, however I disagree with others.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 The case of trauma is because they are usually only controlling the outward appearance of emotions, which can help, but they're still ruminating and suchforth, which continues to make the associations and neural links stronger, which means dealing with them later is that much harder
@@Allan5366 in my experience it’s kind of both.
Suppress and they build up “pressure”, but indulge and you can “feed the fire”. There’s a middle-ground where you consciously let them out without making them stronger, so that you’re not controlled by them (as happens with both extremes).
Well I'd say partially right.
The Romulans are likely a milder version of the Ancient Vulcans since it appears that the Romulans have had certain aspects of their biology such as the ability to mind meld bred out of the gene pool. Which probably took a few other traits with it.
it's like the evolved version, so to speak. like primitive humans compared to the humans of a more civilized world... even if it's the 14th century and we have conquistadors, slavery, etc.... at least it's less of a chaotic tribal-violence thing.
The introduction of the Va'Tosh Ka'Tur does indicate the existence of other Vulcans who embrace Syobk's philosophies. It still makes us wonder even more what Sybok did that got him exiled from Vulcan. That kind of punishment for simply going against social norms doesn't seem consistent with Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
There are many examples of Vulcans doing and saying things that go against IDIC.
Sarek marrying a human and then having conflicts with his son.
Spock's trouble with the Vulcan science academy.
The conflict with Andoria and repressing humanity.
That's what I can remember at the moment.
Well, that ship in _Enterprise_ was sort of in exile too, albeit somewhat self-imposed, and there was that senator who’d disowned his son over joining.
The fact that He went against the teachings Surak and took on the beliefs of his mother explained in the ST-V novel and we see it in the film. That is why Sarek divorced her and eventually married Spock's mother Amanda.
I tend to believe Vulcan has a dominant culture & sub cultures. They all share certain principles & beliefs, but how they interpret & live out Surak's teaching can be somewhat different. IDIC would allow for this. But the more austere Vulcans who the majority recognize as 'Vulcans" are the dominant culture, in my opinion."
So the Va'Tosh Ka'Tur were correct! Surak never meant to repress all emotion, he wanted to simply control them.
And you know, I always wondered how Vulcans deal with feelings that are not necessarily emotional but hormonal. What do they do when they are physically attracted to someone? Take that time for example, when Archer suddenly realized how hot T'Pol was. How do Vulcans react in those situations? They meditate the boner away?
I want to see this episode on "Enterprise". One day, a Vulcan woman fell into Johnathan Archer's lap, but it wasn't T'Pol. His trusted Sci Officer would be nowhere near to warn or worry over her adventurous captain because they would disagree and go their separate ways during "liberty on Vulcan". He and this Vulcan woman would fall so hard for each other at first contact it would be painful to watch. We could study how Vulcans act when taken by the strong emotions of wanting someone. She would be a woman from the upper class or from high echelons of the Science Academy faculty or somehow forbidden to touch. Let me see Johnathan Archer forced to leave her after the "liberty". T'Pol would wonder what happened as Archer turned away, dismissing her to continue mourning, remembering alone.
@@EdiaStanfordBruce Well, it would be interesting to have T'Pol in that mix as well. Maybe make her a bit jealous? It would be funny to see a jealous vulcan.
Alternatively, the Vulcans achieved their technological zenith prior to a time when a neurological instability, perhaps spread unbeknownst to themselves by mindmelds, led to them becoming extremely volatile. It's not uncommon for humans to develop sensitivities or even allergies after going prolonged periods exposed to substances without difficulty, so perhaps their neurology gradually have shifted in a similar way. Proto-Vulcans and Romulans may have abandoned melding to preserve themselves, or its absence could have been a physiological response to a "contagion", but those who remained behind may have used logic and immense willpower to control the effects, or reactions, to the neurological strains or even damage imposed by melding, and maintained that discipline even after rooting out those they believed to be the spreaders of the "defect", i.e. mindmelders.
As a related alternative, perhaps those who remained on Vulcan chose to retain their mindmelding abilities at great danger to themselves in the belief that they could use logic to control its effects. The Romulans and others, thinking it lunacy to persist with exposing themselves to such peril, departed the planet to save themselves. In the subsequent and self-edifying Vulcan retellings, they "abandoned" logic. Once finding Vulcan again, the Romulans may then have enacted their anti-melding strategy as outlined in the video.
Or it's all dogmatic nonsense, with the truth being they're closer to Romulans and humans than they'd like to believe and their history washed clean of contradictory evidence through devotion to their faith and, of course, the near obliteration of their infrastructure.
IIRC there was a Next Generation episode where the Federation and the Romulans were fighting over an ancient Vulcan super weapon that was thought to be a myth. The weapon was based around the Vulcan's mental abilities, and it's biggest set back was that the user's subconscious rage and desires could manifest from it against the user's will. At the end, they posited that this super weapon that nearly destroyed that ancient Vulcans was what led to them suppressing their emotions. It was only mentioned in this one episode, and it seemed Trek has ignored it ever since.
The weapon was called The Stone of Gol.
Vulcan Ambassador Soval:
We don't know what to do about Humans. Of all the species we've made contact with, yours is the only one we can't define. You have the arrogance of Andorians, the stubborn pride of Tellarites. One moment, you're as driven by your emotions as Klingons, and the next, you confound us by suddenly embracing logic.
Admiral Maxwell Forrest:
I'm sure those qualities are found in every species.
Vulcan Ambassador Soval:
Not in such confusing abundance.
According to Soval Humans are more emotional than Vulcans. This is what scares Vulcans than Humans do not need to suppress their emotions to function. My guess is that humans are this way because of the different geographical locations that humans have had to survive evolve on.
I don't think that when Vulcans 'repress' their emotions they would use methods that would result in the pent up rage, at least not in the same way or to the extent you would by ignoring your feelings. Its to my understanding they use meditation to help understand the need behind the emotions and respond in a way that is rational, or to simply be aware of how it affects them so they can act without it affecting their reason.I don't think this is unhealthy if you do it right, its just practicing mindfulness, they aren't actually repressing their emotions. And I believe I heard some where in the show that pon far (and its call to mate) is the most ancient part of their people, I think the romulans don't have it simply because of reman ancestory.
Maybe emotions are like energy you can’t just bottle up your emotion and expect them to stay bottled up sometimes things will seep out or in a punny way volcanically explode every now and then
You can clearly see though that even those Vulcans who seem extremely logical are not only more emotional then they claim to be, they are also seemingly unable to realize it. I remember once in voyager, (I’m about to paraphrase this dialogue so bear with me) Neelix said something to Tuvok like “you must be really nostalgic about that time in your life.” Tuvok replied with something like “as a Vulcan I do not experience nostalgia, however when I look back on that part of my life, I am pleased that I was there” or some shit, and I just thought “congratulations Mr. Tuvok; that’s nostalgia.” Those emotions are still there, and they still bubble up from time to time.
I think Trek can be somewhat inconsistent about this. Older Spock and that ambassador lady in _Enterprise_ suggest that they do as you say (“they’re our emotions too - we just hide them better”), which is similar to real life buddhism, and Tuvok talking Kim through the “deconstruction” of love fits in that mould too. But there’s also the Kolinahr which is said to be a “complete purging”, and _Voyager_ and _Enterprise_ also discuss “emotional suppression centres” of the brain quite frequently. Perhaps this could be resolved as simply saying there’s different schools of thought on Vulcan, as to whether Kolinahr is necessary or whether a balance can be achieved; but really I think it’s just a conflicting narrative within writers rooms.
Thanks, I enjoyed that. Lots of things about Vulcans in canon make little sense but I suppose they are alien and as humans we will always find them mystifying. In recent years it seems it was forgotten that Vulcans were peaceful, tolerant and open minded and they were disappointingly written as xenophobic and arrogant. Sigh. Also I think it would have been fun if they had developed the Romulans as essentially Evil Vulcans but it is what it is. Out of interest, there is lurking somewhere on youtube an 'interview' between Gene Rodenberry and Sarek of Vulcan. They talk about pon farr and all sorts. Quite interesting if somewhat prurient.
Many long years ago I was reading a series of Star Trek books that explain the Pon'Farr as being similar to elephants here on Earth where the male goes into a "Musk" every so many years and as such the female has to be ready to mate whenever that occurs therefore it was the males that suffered the fits of rage and the females were pretty much ready and willing to mate whenever that opportunity occurred.
Not only have we yet to hear of the Romulans having a hard estrus cycle (more commonly known as Pon Farr), but I have yet to hear of a Romulan getting Bendii Syndrome either. A condition which I also believe is an effect of a lifelong suppression and subsequent burying of emotion long term.
It would be a great thing to dig farther into the Romulans. Then, we'll see what happened to them when they wandered in space looking for a place to go when they fled Vulcan.
We actually know very very little about Romulan physiology in canon.
Aside from what we can SAFELY assume from their Vulcan heritage.
For example; we didn't know Romulans had Vulcan "super-human" strength until Star Trek 2009 came out, because it had never been depicted on screen in canon until Nero was effortlessly holding up Kirk by the jaw Darth Vader style.
We also as yet have no reason to believe they share in the percentage of the Vulcan population which is capable of limited telepathic abilities.
To my knowledge it has never even been explained why most Romulans have prominent brow ridges.
a little note on Pon Farr, there are animals on earth that DIE if they don't mate.
Like Ferrets.
My joke name for those episode from Enterprise Season 4 is "The 'We're Sorry For How Badly We've Written Every Vulcan Not Named Tuvok For The Last Ten Years' Trilogy."
*What makes Tuvoc so great? He was a token black Vulcan character - that's it. And **_Enterprise_** was a much better show than Voyager, and the Vulcans in **_Enterprise_** may have seemed out of character due to the fact that the Vulcans were experiencing a relapse in terms of their adherence to emotional control - until Surak's Katric Arc is discovered.*
I had already been thinking some of these things, but I’m glad to find a more coherent theory than just what thoughts were floating in my head.
I've wondered if Plak-Tow (the Blood Fever that most often goes along with Pon'Farr) is actually CAUSED by the suppression of emotion. Pon'Farr is a emotionally unstable state and every little pent-up feeling finds it's way to the surface in an explosion of frustration and anger. I've also wondered if Bandi Syndrome is also caused by emotional supressions. Maybe the Va'Tosh Ka'Tur rarely is ever sufferer from these two disorders? :)
Your hypothesis would fit humanity very well. I believe it would also fit Vulcan-human mixed species. However, if you watch the extremes of spock and his brother, (I forget which movie it was), Spock had nearly achieved kolinar status, albeit doubtful by their fathers assessment at that point, but his brother had chosen to live with his raw emotions, uninhibited by their suppression by logic. I wish i could remember which movie. The plot has Kirk, not yet elevated to Starfleet Admiralty , but being considered. Enterprise is in continuous exploration mode, when Spock's half brother, (never mentioned in the series to my knowledge), arrives on Enterprise to Spock's barely concealed chagrin. (The plot hints that the full blooded Vulcan earned Spock's anger and rejection when they were children, by allowing his half-sibling to be taunted, hazed,and bullied by his peers because of his human half, (which, as far as many highly intelligent 'Trekkies ' believe, Mr. Spock has not simply got a handle on, - but has conquered to the Vulcan level of kolinar enlightenment. ) And as we all know, children of any
We NEED a Romulan Psyche counterpart to this please!!!
I had always had a 'head canon' for the existence of Pon'Farr: the taking up of Logic and the control of emotions led to a decrease in Vulcan population, as practitioners of Surak's teachings were deciding to also practice celibacy (whether or not Surak himself actually taught that).
So those in charge came up with a new 'psionic technique' to make sure the Vulcan species would propagate: Emplanting in the minds of newborns a urge to mate each 7 years after attaining maturity, one so strong that it would eventually overcome any mental controls to not do so.
Again, no where near 'official', but liked it ^_^
I see this interest link: Vulcans can be telepathic; Vulcans must endure Pon'Farr.
However Romulans do not have Pon'Farr; Romulans are not telepathic.
Spock was a half-Human half-Vulcan. In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, this half-Vulcan was able to telepathically sense the "thought patterns of perfect logic from V'ger" from several light years away.
What-if, Vulcans are unconsciously picking up on background psychic gestalt of all the sentient races of the Milky Way galaxy via passive psychic ability ? Essentially sucking up the "background crazy" of all sentient lifeforms in the galaxy.
Consciously Vulcans are using logic to supress their own emotional impulses. Meanwhile unconsciously, their passive telepathy "drinks up" all the background emotional energy. As the sentient species of the galaxy discover warp drive, the start colonizing the stars and the background psychic gestalt increases.
If this theory is correct, then Vulcan Pon'Farr would be a release mechanism to dump this "background crazy".
Also that if one goes back in time, the further one goes into Vulcan's past, the intensity of Pon'Farr would decrease. This also would mean that going into Vulcan's future would see the intensity of Pon'Farr increasing.
Potentially if a Vulcan starship got caught in the intergalactic void between galaxies, the Vulcans there may not experience any Pon'Farr because they are millions of light years from any sentient lifeforms except for their fellow crew members.
This is actually a genius theory and you should tell it to more people. One thing, though. I think it’s more than just pon’far. Every time a Vulcan loses control or even shows a little more emotion than is considered proper could be tied to this. Much of Star Trek lore backs this up. Consider Sarek, he was known as an absolute master at mind melding and he was so emotional he up and married a human!
My guess is that Romulans doe not experience Ponn Farr because they just have sex whenever they have the opportunity. Thus, like Humans, they do not have a cycle-based reproductive system because they mate when they want, not according to a schedule.
vulcan blue ball
Imagine how terrifying a Vulcan BSDM film would be.
"Why are you hitting my penis? That is illogical."
"No I find it most stimulating."
Thank you. Your videos make me love Star Trek more and more.
I vaguely remember that the Romulans killed all their telepaths on their long journey to Romulus.
Zentradi from SDF Macross please.
I think that your theory is brilliant, and the only logical explanation. I have been watching/listening to a number of your shows , Rick , and am enjoying them immensely.
Thanks!
Want to know what Vulcans were before Surak. Look at the Romulans
I don't think Romulans dissmissed mediation altogether. SOme of them demonstrate some of the gestures and behaviour similar to Vulcan emotional control. They just do it less dogmatically. I think they still need it to be well balanced just as some humans do. It's like a bonus.
Plus we don't know how long the trip between Vulcan and Romulus took, travelling through space possibly for years, surely modified their bio chemistry and their behaviour.
Every since I saw the Romulan Commander in Balance Of Terror, I somewhat guessed that it was the Vulcans who changed not the Romulans. The Romulans were remaining true to who and what they are, or possibly what they imagine they are meant to be. If this is true, than Vulcan's last civil war, before those who would become Romulans left Vulcan, would have been a bloody one. This may also explain the drastic changes to the Vulcan mind set.
Pretty good point it's probably similar to how English language has developed between US and UK. US English is closer to tudor period English than UK English, it's obviously different but closer to that root. May be similar to Romulans and Vulcans in lots of ways.
Also for the Romulans to have left and travelled / settled Romulus at all they would need to have had a warp level civilisation or they would still be travelling there!
this makes sense. Just because the Vulcans were violent , erratic, and paranoid doesn't mean they couldn't cooperate to build a civilization. His hypothesis falls apart on this point
The lesson here is 'Don't be afraid of your emotions'.
Once only 7 years. That would suck. I understand ab fertility cycle, but that's alittle extreme.
Joey Frye it should be noted that while yes every Vulcan of after a certain age. ( after all we've never herd of Vulcan seven year olds or 14 year olds having to go through the pong far, so it's likely takes root once the body is fully grown) has to go the pon far every seven years. It's not as if Vulcans only have sex at that time. Just like humans or any race they get frisky and what to have sex any time they won't, though it's likely that for a Vulcan at the very least, the best chance to reproduce is during pon far. As there are animals on earth that have sex just for shear joy of it but also have sex just to breed and have cycles according.
Think of the pon far more like a breeding season, like how certain animals will online start having children in the spring to summer. Or have a migration to a " breeding/ nesting grounds"
@@shmee123ful apparently sarcasm is lost on you. I completely UNDERSTAND the Marine season bit.
Remember that their life span is roughly twice that of a human. Every seven years is actually not a serious population bottleneck when your fertile lifetime could be a century or longer. In fact, Vulcans might suffer fewer complications of pregnancy because their females' bodies have more time to recover between pregnancies.
@@daniels7907 Do the female Vulcans still have a monthly menstrual cycle? Certainly, they wouldn't have theirs only every 7 years and when would they start and end? How long is a Vulcan month and year?
@@virginiaconnor8350 I do not recall *any* species' menstrual cycle being discussed on Star Trek (menopause was mentioned at least once though). Just making a wild guess here, but I would suspect that Vulcan females would menstruate a *lot* less often than human females. They evolved on a desert planet after all, and menstruation is a loss of body water. Doing it frequently would actually be survival threat. So their periods of fertility may also be spread further apart. Which, again, is not really a threat to procreation if the males are not ready anytime, anywhere, like human males. Their longer lifespans mean that they can still produce a lot of kids, and less frequent pregnancies would allow for better recovery between pregnancies.
I kinda agree with your premise. The one thing I haven't been able to figure out it's ok, maybe the suppression of emotions intensified the Pon'Farr but if the nature of Vulcans was so chaotic and even dangerous, how could the Romulans have lasted and thrived as long as they did?
I agree with your take that it was the Romulan infiltration which led to mind melds becoming taboo, not just for the reason you stated but I believe they were also aware that mind melds were the only way Surak’s original teachings could be passed down as they had believed they’d destroyed the original copies (“the _Kir’shara_ is a myth”, after all). Indeed, mind melds passed-on Surak’s katra and led to the destruction of the Romulan influence in Vulcan government.
One over arching point of character development for Spock in TAS movies was that total logic wasn't really enlightenment. He became at peace with his half-human nature, and a source of great wisdom for both humans and Vulcans.
It seems reasonable that this would lead to his better understanding of Romuluns as well, and what would lead him to see value in reunification. That there was a place for emotion for him and for other Vulcans as well.
I COMPLETELY agree with you about the Pon'Farr.
Vulcans disassociation from emotions rather than suppression.
Saavik didn't behave like T'Pol when Spock was in Pon Farr. She was the calm one, like T'Pring. It was the males who were wild. Dr. Phlox, a Denobulan, was able to control T'Pol's cat-like moves. Vulcans are not human, but humanoid so I can't see how they'd know how to behave like a cat, much have heats instead-or also-menses.
I'm saying that there is a "code" in female Vulcan personality and behavior in their "season". If I were one of the "wise ones"/shaman women of old, I would say that there were Le-Matya women, Selat women, and the Rhohansu. Likewise, Le-Matya men, Selat men, and Rhohansu (Romulan like). T'Pol is a Le-matya woman; will claw and climb like a cat. Irritable and short-tempered and easily aroused to violence during Pon-Farr. T'Pring is my example of a Selat woman. Thoughtful, deep channeled, and slow-simmering in contrast to her Le-matya sister. Valaris might be a high-strung Le-matya. Saavik might be a deep, patient Selat woman--Perfect for Selat men like Spock and Sarek. Bet on Saavik to teach a fumbling, very young Spock to be thoughtful of his mate. I would hate to have had T'Pol be in that role. A little fun theory like the pre-Freudian personality theories on earth. In another earth folk knowledge base, there are horse and elephant women.
You are assuming that both partners enter Pon Farr at the same time. This may not be the case.
Vulcans are said to be felinoid rather than simian as we are. That is why if you see the way Vulcans move in that catlike way. The next time you watch T'Pol or Spock move it is very catlike.
Excellent analysis. Useful even.
Wonderful video man and I completely agree really insitefull .people down play Enterprise but if it wasn't for that show we would not know them in the light we do now thanks man .live long and prosper
I always thought the chaos was caused when they retreated back to Vulcan possibly due to the overcrowding by the returning colonists while the left behind became the Romlians ( their retreat being caused some threat such as an interstellar war or the Borg they were trying to hide from there were plenty of signs that the Alfa quadrant had been devastated at some point in the past and was just starting to clime out of )
In the context of human psychology, it seems reasonable that emotional suppression could lead to more intense emotions, leading to more need for emotional suppression, etc.
I recall talking about this at length in zone chat of STO a month or two ago.
Were you watching?
This makes a whole lot of sense
Rule 34 of star trek. If there is a vulcan there will be a pon farr episode
Live Long and Prosper
I feel like the difference between Vulcans and Romulans after their near destruction was similar to the theory of "logical mind" and "emotional mind". Surak and even Spock were the closest to "wise mind", being able to use both in an almost perfect balance. It's taught in different therapies. I recommend anyone curious about it to do a bit of research. It's pretty damn good stuff
your idea seems to make sense. Humans have to deal with feelings and to a degree suppress them in order to function in society. Which oftentimes results in health problems ranging from ulcers to mental breakdowns. So maybe the vulcans keeping it in for the hundreds of years they live pushing them over the edge makes sense.
Excellent video!
LOL! STO, someone just sitting embedded into the ground.
I had the street from me years to that Vulcans have to let their emotions out they're mostly like children they don't know how to act with their emotions they never experienced what it means to have emotions like humans do you can see this in Star Trek a lot of times
@5:55 we see the statue of who i presume to be Surak, standing behind the IDIC icon, wearing the Kolinahr robe, very lovely,
but then the words, "Live long and prosper" are written in English at the base of the statue where it meets the water.
Who thought it should be written in an alien language like English?!
I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure that's the statue of Spock that was added after Leonard Nimoy's death a few years ago as a tribute.
@@wos1223 Eh? You are likely correct... but again why letter it with Earth English? It is a statue of a half-Vulcan, ON Vulcan, AT a famous Vulcan monument site... did they at least write it in Vulcan on the other side of the base? So Vulcans can read it and peer up at Spock's back with one eyebrow lifted in that quizzical expression they are known for?
Yes. That is exactly why.
Enterprise wrecked the Vulcans and it wasn't because of Romulan agents. That's just something the season 4 writers threw in. It wasn't planned from the start.
Considering the lasting effect of behaviour upon physiology - given enough time & natural selection - it is entirely likely that the ancient Vulcans would have evolved in to their current state as you describe; the `Vulcans` that, eventually, became Romulans by fleeing their birth world seem to have an apparent differentiated physiology and psychology in comparison to their Vulcan cousins. The interesting question for me is why did they, the Romulans, leave Vulcan. A number of possibilities arise from canon: was their irradiated planet the reason; were they for intents and purposes defeated but it was pyrrhic victory for the Vulcans that won but stayed to rebuild their home world; the most attractive explanation is that the Vulcans `that marched beneath the raptors wing` were defeated because of the advent of Logic and emotional suppression - the psionic resonator assembled by Captain Picard (TNG:"Gambit, Part I""Gambit, Part II) utilised violent emotion against adversaries effectively translation negative emotion to a repelling force that killed. Captain Picard theorized that the `resonator` was obstructed by [peace] as it become between the objectives of the war & death as depicted upon the resonator itself as a warning to the user. Which offers some explanation as to why that technology was abandoned but it does also suggest that it may also be the reason why Romulans effectively bred out psionic abilities from their own gene pool: they weren`t useful or necessary to cultivate in the refugee caravan that fled Vulcan after their civil war; or they may not have been enough psionically gifted Vulcan/Romulans left after their defeat, and departure, to produce viable potential telepaths in the intervening 1800 years that it took them to rebuild their own militaristic society in to the Romulan Star Empire? Which again explains why they resent those who do still possess the latent abilities and were at pains to suppress it and uplift those who themselves saw it as deviant behaviour in Vulcan society?
I always wondered what exactly happened with the Romulans and why they left, also what caused the change in their foreheads. Plus if they were Vulcans at one point how is that that they seemed to have lost the telepathic abilities that Vulcans have? I can never remember seeing any Romulan use anything like a mind meld for instance and their emotions seem more human than out of control. It makes me wonder if Romulans and Vulcans were more like humans and Neanderthals, similar but different species that lived on the same planet.
The Romulans with their prominent brow ridge says to me that probably specific tribes who abundantly filled the ranks of the military had the most disagreement with Surak. These folk were probably not the top caste mostly. The Vulcans who remained and went with Surak I guess were basically from the upper crust of society. Again, I see that Old Vulcan must have been highly socially stratified. There must have been certain Vulcans who used their psi abilities to dominate, control, and influence--for good and evil. They would have been top-tier telepaths--mind lords--the best of the best. They probably isolated themselves in the mountains away from the armies and the politicians becoming a law unto themselves. (The only vestige we see of this today is in the priests of Gol, the High Priestess of the Kholinar, and the like. Surak convinced them.) This made them dangerous and so any person with a strong psi gift was eradicated among Romulans through state-sponsored selective breeding. I would love to see movies to straighten this "history of the sundered".
Great video and on a sidenote I always wonder why Romulans lost their telepathic abilities
3:13 What episode is that thumbnail from?
We know the Romulans are an offshoot of the Vulcans, but how much removed are they? How much has their divergence resulted in clearly separate traits? It's obvious that despite their highly intelligent and passionate nature, the Romulans do not poses any psionic abilities. Maybe this would explain the lack of extreme violent outbursts as well? Wasn't the Secret of the Vulcan Fury supposed to provide some answers to all of this?
Makes sense, but one could argue that Vulcans are naturally more meotional than humans since their planet is a raging inferno in itself, many violent predators, geologival and weather features making the environment quite hostile and barely suitable for life. Vulcan has higher gravity and thinner air than Earth making its inhabitants have more endurance and stength and more efficient bodies than humans. That also counts. When you have to live and thrive in a hostile environment with hostile predators lirking around, that's no surprise that the lifeforms on that planet are what they are.
Ancient Vulcans even created psionic weapons for God's sake ! It would kill rageous enemies and spare stoic allies. All based on emotions, in short.
Romulus is slightly better to live on than Vulcan but only marginally so and its sister planet Remus is even worse than Vulcan.
I have always found the difference between the romulans and the vulcans fasincating, would not their differences be adaptation not evolution? they are afterall the exact same species so i think the differences between them stem from change of habitation and obv not suppressing their emotions, perhaps this is why they have the crevases on their forehead perhaps it holds more than just visual benefits.
In the thumbnail, where'd you get that third image? Just wanna use it for a meme
I'm wondering if sex drive was condemned along with other passions might natural selection have pushed for a more extreme mating cycle. I can definitely imagine those with a less extreme meeting drive choosing not to reproduce.
Are Romulans also telepathic and capable of mind melds? And would it be possible that their common ancestry mask their true identity during one?
Acording to the Novels they lack telepathic powers.🖖
But given that ever Vulcan and their Sehlat seems to be able to perform a mind meld in canon, when did that all come back? Spock and Tuvok were popping it out every other episode. Actually, come to think of it, why didn't Spock just mind meld with Scotty in TOS: "Wolf in the Fold"?
Betazoids index next please.
Vulcan mind meld, the ultimate cheat code...
If 7 years is the amount of time you have before you have to hump or die, maybe you should seek out a slice of pie every four five years. So you don't go crazy. That's called logic.
So minor detail. The statue with “live long” on it… if that is a Vulcan statue on Vulcan wouldn’t the saying be written in Vulcan and not Earth english?
has there ever been any Vulcan born Orphans raised perhaps on earth or somewhere else by humans, similar to Worf being raised among humans?
It has long been my opinion that Vulcans have lots more going on than just emotional repression. Spock tells Christine in SNW that "he let something out" in the battle with the Gorn. What is that "thing?" Agreed also that Vulcans probably don't know their real history any more than we do.
Vulcans were able to figure out how to control their passionate emotions 3,000 years before Surak's birth.
I joke that the Vulcans have been on a 2,000 year long 12 steps for their anger.
Also, Duane has a surprise at the end of the book that she claims to have gotten from Roddenberry, himself.
more simply, I believe Vulcans as a species are bipolar... Furthermore, I think their logic is causing more inbalances than it assumingly solves
In Voyager, TNG and DS9 they had Halodecks, why wouldn't the doctor just dose them and toss them in a ready made halosuite program? Surely this has happened a couple dozen times?
Sooo...every Vulcan is a ticking timebomb? That's... _disturbing..._
i wonder if there were huge events in the history of the CAITIANs like was for the other species like vulcans and if there are hybrid possibilities for the CAITIANS i hope they do much more episodes and storylines for the many types of the CAITIANS in star trek more often and i think cause the vulcans met the humans and several like archer they vulcans started to gain more control over thier emotions and focus much better thanks to archer kirk even picard meeting like minded individuals helping them gain more control over their emotions and find better alternatives to releasing thier emotions at the right times and not going full on psychopath
The host is ‘the mighty jingles’ from WOTS
A speculation video on BSG One God and angels?
TIL the Vulcans were basically small Jiralhanae in c.200 CE.
Vulcans were at least as unstable as TNG Romulans before Surak, they were killing each other regularly.
Vulcans suppression of emotions have left them unable to control them. Trigger warning
Can we mention the elephant in the room? Vulcsns and the Moe Howard haircuts. It hasn't changed for centuries, is it part of the cult of Surak?
Yeah, that happened to me. I suppress a lot of emotion, to the point where I don't even realize I'm doing it anymore, so people take that for weakness and walk all over me. They think it's fun to use me as an emotional punching bag because I don't fight back. Then at some point the suppression fails, and I don't even recognize the monster I become. This means that despite striving to be a good person, I'm the total opposite. I'd give anything to change, but a lifetime of abuse, failure, loneliness, depression, and damage will always cause problems.
Writing about your emotions can be a good coping method
To sad that Ent got canceled, they could have explored Vulcan culture further in S5
What would the Jedi think of the Pon- Farr?
The jedi would allow it, given that resistance leads to death.
do romulans have the 7 year cycle?
I do not think so.
memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/All_Our_Yesterdays_(episode) You might want to re-watch this episode for Spock's description of ancient Vulcans behavior pre-logic imposed mind structure.
Perhaps when Vulcan achieved interstellar travel, they compared cultures, and found themselves wanting in some way. It would be odd for a unified culture to doubt itself, unless it was aware of an alternative.
Disrupter Beam ignores my suggestion for Pon'Farr characters. Pffft.
I wonder if there are Vulcan psychiatrists?
Yes, they do their counseling with a mind-meld.... sometimes. But the hourly rates are through the wormhole!
Certifiably Ingame: Please read 'Spock's World' by Diane Duane, she is a fully accredited Star Trek author and her work is Canon.
First off, it's not 'suppress emotion,' That was a mistranslation from Archer's time. The Correct translation is 'Passion's Mastery.' They have emotion, only they experience them more intensely due to the dual (Inner & Outer) construction of the Vulcan brain. By meditation and adherence to the lessons of the Kir Shira they have learned not let emotion effect their thoughts or interactions. Surak was well aware what happens when emotions get pent up too long without release: Nuclear war and Vulcan losing a third of its population to the Star's. The largest of this group founding the Romulan Empire about two thousand years ago.
Roddenberry wanted to make them his decades 'Communalist Chinese,' instead they became like if Remus had killed Romulus, not the other way around.
Vulcan civilization is 100,000 years old and before their own Praxis incident, a Jungle planet.
Season Four of Enterprise, SEASON. There aren't four different tv series featuring Star Trek: Enterprise. You're making the same mistake the British do. It's Season Four.
ERm, he IS British.
This sounds more like it's explaining Vulcans not like they are LIKE human, but that they ARE human, that's fine I guess this is fiction, but it's less interesting when it's a judgement comparing human standards than a true analysis of something alien
No it is logical, living beings have emotions to make them interact with their environment, protect themselves in case of danger, coorperate, reproduce... Their is absolutely no reason why Vulcans, mammals close to what humans are (for the exception of the element base of their blood and the emplacement of some organs), would be different. They evolved naturally in their harsh environment, Vulcan is not especially easy to live on so they adapted, their intellect developed as well so they could survive more easily. Hormones, brain chemistry, it is vastly the same as humans, with some minor differences due to evolution and their environment. Plus they also have social behaviour, an organised society and rules, laws and temper, I don't see why we should treat them differently. Granted one must take into account some differences here and there, but those are quite minor.
Had Vulcans been a Silicium based lifeform hidden in the sand, yeah they could have been totally different and pointless to compare them.
Not being to compare Vulcans and Humans would be as stupid as not being able to compare Humans with Needertaliens...
Well, if you want to call it stupid thats your business.