Thank you Dr. Wenthe for sharing your analyses and prayers. As someone who might very soon be looking for a new church home, I appreciate the effort on your part.
Regardless of the fact that marriage is not a sacrament and that procreation is a gift and a calling but not an imperative, I'm all for the gift of marriage... which is why I'm happy to see it extended to homosexuals. Here we have homosexuals fighting to GET married while more and more straight people are fighting to GET OUT of marriage.
We understand the controversial and sensitive nature of this official statement by Concordia Theological Seminary. While we certainly welcome comments from both sides of the issue, comments will be tightly moderated and kept in a spirit of civil discussion. Thank you, and may the Lord bless you.
The difference is repentant sinners, those who call their sin a sin and confess it to God versus an impenitent sinner who thinks what they are doing is OK. God is the only source of righteousness. In fact our righteousness comes from God in Jesus Christ; you know the whole Cross thing. Pastors are sinners just as everyone else. Any single impenitent sin can lead to hell, not just homosexuality, but addictions, pride, and strife. We are called to confess our sins and put our trust in Christ alone
I'll be your "good Lutheran" petrakid: 2Sam 1:26 "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women". And let's not forget 1Sam 1:41 "David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded." Very beautiful, very romantic,and quite gay!
@hieronomy I took your advice and looked up Senator Vitter of Lousiana. You are so right. He should be the poster guy for this presenter and all who think like him. Perhaps the best RUclips video I found on Senator Vitter was "Forgotten Crimes: Lawmaker, Lawbreaker" by DoingaVitter. It does show the true family values that Senator Vitter represents and why it is so important to fight for abstinence for teenagers and against any civil rights for gays.
"sin is not taken into account where there is no law" -it is obvious Paul was not aware of the flood. The entire planet was condemned for breaking laws that did not exist at the time.
"Sabbath for man not man for sabbath" -(IMHO) is one of the most revolutionary things Jesus ever said (besides "I and the father are one") - fully understood, it dislodges scripture, doctrine, and tradition from the circle of stars and places them under our feet. Keeping the sabbath is not merely part of the law -it's one of the commandments! However, I am persuaded that from a confessional perspective it's meaning may not be clear or is "very limited". How do you understand it?
I find 1Cor 6, 1Tim 1, and Rom 1 confusing and maybe you can help me understand. They all support Lev 18:22. However, there are very few Old Testament laws that we Lutherans observe today. For example, not working on Saturdays, What is the criteria by which we ignore some and observe others?
Well, I am indeed a confessional Lutheran ™ but if as Paul says "sin is not taken into account where there is no law" by what standard was the world corrupt or violent?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 gives some interesting advice on marriage. However, I can't recall ever hearing of anyone getting married in this way. Can you? Would you council marriage in a situation like this -(assuming the guilty party has enough silver)? To answer your question -Of course Scripture is God's Word! But it's just that I find too many immoral passages like this that you choose to ignore and I choose to defy.
I don't have a problem with "did God really say..." - My problem is -should I trust him for moral guidance? I mean after all, he institutes slavery (even for one's own children), capital punishment for just about every offense (collecting firewood on Saturday??), guilty not only of genocide (remember the Ammonites?) but he wiped out the entire planet! Oh and throw in eternal torture - I can't think of anyone less moral. Can you?
No, you seem to get confused with the sin versus the sinner. We are all sinners and in a Christian community, we are called to hold accountable each other through the Law given by God. We will not hold it perfectly, but we are called to believe, repent and as Jesus said, "Sin no more." Sin is dangerous, it separates us from God. All the ELCA is doing is ignoring sins that God himself will not forgive. You can love someone straight to hell! It all comes down to repentance!
I have no idea if Jesus was gay -although, anyone who would intentionally break the sabbath (a crime punishable by death) in order to teach compassion wouldn't think twice about taking a gay lover to teach 1john 4:16. I'm surprised they don't teach that in seminary.
@hillerm That's an irrelevant argument. He is not making a civil argument. His criticism is not of a civil institution, it is of another Lutheran church body, thus scriptural references are more relevant than anything else. Why do you hate freedom? A church's choice to adhere to what the Bible says does not hurt you. Any attempt to block religious freedom is tyranny.
No, actually it's God's law: EX 31:15 " Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death". However, Jesus teaches in Mark 2:27 that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" Therefore, I extend this revolutionary principle thus: "Scripture was made for man not man for Scripture!" -and so now I read those other verses...
Abraham married a half sister, Caine couldn't have possibly married anyone other than a daughter he got with his mother Eve. David and Solomon practiced polygamy? Ok, how exactly is scripture being "consistent" here in regards to marriage?
@PhantomF9 Are you stating fact or opinion? The definition of marriage hasn't changed, ever! Genesis 2:24, affirmed by Paul in Ephesians 5. Jesus didn't take up the issue because was homosexuality allowable under the Law? No, it was punishable by death! Jesus was preaching to a Jewish audience, not Gentiles. Divorce is a huge problem in every church. It is serious because an unrepentant divorced person is just as accountable as an unrepentant homosexual as this is outside the boundaries.
Polygamy is an acceptable model - the kings of Israel practiced it and there is no law forbidding it. My point is that scripture may be a excellent source for salvation but an inconsistent one in regards to marriage.
And since science now says alcoholism can be inherited, we should not try to help those who have this addiction? I dont care what science says, any sin that is instructed as such in the Bible is offensive to God. Go ahead and love people straight to hell, but out of love, I will help them see the error in their ways as fellow Christians show me the error in my own ways. The reason there are sins in the first place is the original sin of Adam and Eve. God didn't create us to sin!
God created me with both a free will and a conscience. It's unfair of you to say that I wear blinders. I pointed out for example that God's ideas on marriage are inconsistent, that instituting slavery was evil, that Jesus intentionally broke the sabbath. Blinders would have prohibited me from seeing any of this -I would instead have defended or excused them. And as for your three Pauline verses - I apologize that I have not yet responded. I'll go over them tonight.
You're defending slavery! Oh -because biblical slavery is not the horrible, nasty sort that we had here in America -then explain -"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21) According to the bible we can beat our slaves just so long as they survive a day or two.
Let me ask you this, would you be ok with your pastor being an adulator? How about an extorter? Child molester? Alcoholic? We all have sins and are all sinners. Pastors carry out the public worship of a congregation. Scriptures require a pastor "to be above reproach." Not openly sinning against God. Any public impenitent, immoral sin should bar someone from being a pastor. I don't care how long the list. The list of questions above is only the beginning of that list.
You've indulged in a non-sequitor. The discussion is *not* about whether a homosexual marriage has a direct impact on mine. Is *is* about the ELCA - a Christian body failing to be faithful to the Word of God by normalizing what is clearly sinful behavior - and leading their flock astray in the process. Clearly you think that people should be allowed to marry whomever - and perhaps WHATEVER they desire. But God's word is clear. And that's the "opinion" that matters.
Sorry petrakid, my mistake I meant 1Sam 20:41 -I'll try to be more careful. This is the passage where David and Jonathan cry with one another while making out. Their love is definitely is not "godly love between two of God's children"- David describes it as "passing the love of women". And I'm not overlooking those other texts. You asked for an example of homosexuality acceptable by God. David is Isreal's greatest rulers and here he is in scripture professing an erotic love with Jonathan.
No a kiss among friends (not particularly in this culture) is innocent. However, kissing couples coupled (did you like that?) with an affection "passing the love of women" is suspect. And yes, I'm guilty at all times (if I can help it) of blatant eisegesis. The word of God is far too important to let others interpret it for me.
Jesus! What does above reproach mean in the context of 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1? Are we talking about public sins or private sins? The office of the overseer is a public office thus we must be talking about public sins. And yes, weve all broken Gods commandments, every single one of us, except for Jesus Christ. So youre saying because we all sin we should have a sin fest? Paul answered that question when he says By no means to the question Should we continue to sin so grace may increase.
I find your instruction to look at scripture from "God's perspective" to be presumptuous and dangerous. For example, if we looked at slavery from God's perspective we are are not only permitted to buy them and treat them as property (Lev 25:44-46) but we're even allowed to sell our own children as slaves (Ex 21:7-11). Do you really believe it is "God's design" that we own slaves? If not then why should "God's definition" of marriage be any less misguided?
@lykan21 Nice try, but wrong! Before you argue from an OT Law perspective, which is a difficult subject, let's look at creation. God created them male and female so that the two shall become one flesh (Matthew 19:3-5). Homosexuality goes against God's created order. You don't even need a Bible (special revelation), but only natural revelation to figure it out. That is why Paul uses homosexuality as his poster child for one following their own lustful desires, being their own God over God's will.
I know where youre going with Leviticus and you're getting your laws all mixed up, but hey when you've got a liberal, revisionist theology to push, why not. To me, 6 times seems like God is making a point. No different than other sins such as adultery or pride, or fill in the blank. If you chose to not hold a fellow Christian to account for Gods law, go for it! ITS A SIN in God's eyes. If it weren't than God would be a liar.
As hieronomy has recommended one good video on family values, I shall recommend another one. To fully understand what a biblical marriage is that fundamentalists should be fighting for, take a look at "Mrs. Betty Bowers Explains Traditional Marriage To Everyone Else" by Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian. It's far more enjoyable to watch than this video.
Wow, your true feelings were expressed there! The "scandal of particularity" might come into play. If God said it, it doesn't matter what I THINK OF IT! You seem to believe the Bible is just a human experience. That places us at odds. I believe the Bible is the very Word of God which was given to the writers of the Bible. This of course was not a problem until the enlighten period where pin heads like you thought they knew more than God. There are different types of law for different purposes!
How many references are in the Bible about homosexuality? And of those how many in the NT? Answer those questions before you place your own judgment over God's. That is if you are serious about the Word of God and the truth God proclaims from it.
My only point is that scripture is an excellent source for salvation. It's a terrible science book, guide to marriage, phone book, etc. However, I will take your advice. My opinions are not important. Blessings petrakid.
@pilot4321 ever wore to different types of fabric at the same time? ever ate seafoods? Because that would be an error of your ways according to your beloved bible!
@pilot4321 the very same authority that gives your scriptures its power: None! Quick question: how do you scared a child with thoughts of the bogeyman if the child has stopped believing in any sort metaphysical non-sense a long time ago?! In my mind your imaginary friend has just as much power as Santa! **(funny how i dont spell god with a capital letter but i do it for Santa!)
@lykan21 Well, I'm truly disheartened by your stance. I pray that one day, God (with the capital G) would bring you to understand His (with a capital H) grace and mercy through Christ (with a capital C). In the end I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't. But science is not my god, so I don't much care. In the end faith is trust, and if you want to place your trust in the things of this world, go ahead!
@lykan21 Well, if you think the flying spaghetti monster will save you, well go for it! So, I think you just want to do what you want to do, no surprise, you're on this post trying to tear it down. So do it, and the consequences, whatever they are yours! Have a good life. . .
Thank you Dr. Wenthe for sharing your analyses and prayers. As someone who might very soon be looking for a new church home, I appreciate the effort on your part.
Thanks so much for keeping the comments civil. To this point, no comments have been removed. God's blessings.
Amen!
Regardless of the fact that marriage is not a sacrament and that procreation is a gift and a calling but not an imperative, I'm all for the gift of marriage... which is why I'm happy to see it extended to homosexuals. Here we have homosexuals fighting to GET married while more and more straight people are fighting to GET OUT of marriage.
The problem is that, people have a tendency of confusing the two. The Seminary needs to make it clear that it believes what the Bible teaches.
We understand the controversial and sensitive nature of this official statement by Concordia Theological Seminary. While we certainly welcome comments from both sides of the issue, comments will be tightly moderated and kept in a spirit of civil discussion. Thank you, and may the Lord bless you.
The difference is repentant sinners, those who call their sin a sin and confess it to God versus an impenitent sinner who thinks what they are doing is OK. God is the only source of righteousness. In fact our righteousness comes from God in Jesus Christ; you know the whole Cross thing. Pastors are sinners just as everyone else. Any single impenitent sin can lead to hell, not just homosexuality, but addictions, pride, and strife. We are called to confess our sins and put our trust in Christ alone
I'll be your "good Lutheran" petrakid:
2Sam 1:26 "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women".
And let's not forget 1Sam 1:41 "David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded."
Very beautiful, very romantic,and quite gay!
@hieronomy
I took your advice and looked up Senator Vitter of Lousiana. You are so right. He should be the poster guy for this presenter and all who think like him. Perhaps the best RUclips video I found on Senator Vitter was "Forgotten Crimes: Lawmaker, Lawbreaker" by DoingaVitter. It does show the true family values that Senator Vitter represents and why it is so important to fight for abstinence for teenagers and against any civil rights for gays.
"sin is not taken into account where there is no law" -it is obvious Paul was not aware of the flood. The entire planet was condemned for breaking laws that did not exist at the time.
It's been a while but Job sounds like a good idea.
@RCSVirginia There is no reason at all why the LCMS can't respond to a decision in another church body.
"Sabbath for man not man for sabbath" -(IMHO) is one of the most revolutionary things Jesus ever said (besides "I and the father are one") - fully understood, it dislodges scripture, doctrine, and tradition from the circle of stars and places them under our feet. Keeping the sabbath is not merely part of the law -it's one of the commandments! However, I am persuaded that from a confessional perspective it's meaning may not be clear or is "very limited". How do you understand it?
I'm confused... Where in this message did Dr. Wenthe mention the government at all?
I find 1Cor 6, 1Tim 1, and Rom 1 confusing and maybe you can help me understand. They all support Lev 18:22. However, there are very few Old Testament laws that we Lutherans observe today. For example, not working on Saturdays, What is the criteria by which we ignore some and observe others?
Well, I am indeed a confessional Lutheran ™ but if as Paul says "sin is not taken into account where there is no law" by what standard was the world corrupt or violent?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 gives some interesting advice on marriage. However, I can't recall ever hearing of anyone getting married in this way. Can you?
Would you council marriage in a situation like this -(assuming the guilty party has enough silver)?
To answer your question -Of course Scripture is God's Word!
But it's just that I find too many immoral passages like this that you choose to ignore and I choose to defy.
I don't have a problem with "did God really say..." - My problem is -should I trust him for moral guidance? I mean after all, he institutes slavery (even for one's own children), capital punishment for just about every offense (collecting firewood on Saturday??), guilty not only of genocide (remember the Ammonites?) but he wiped out the entire planet! Oh and throw in eternal torture - I can't think of anyone less moral. Can you?
No, you seem to get confused with the sin versus the sinner. We are all sinners and in a Christian community, we are called to hold accountable each other through the Law given by God. We will not hold it perfectly, but we are called to believe, repent and as Jesus said, "Sin no more." Sin is dangerous, it separates us from God. All the ELCA is doing is ignoring sins that God himself will not forgive. You can love someone straight to hell! It all comes down to repentance!
So ceremonial laws are pretty much outdated curiosities but moral laws are still relevant?
I have no idea if Jesus was gay -although, anyone who would intentionally break the sabbath (a crime punishable by death) in order to teach compassion wouldn't think twice about taking a gay lover to teach 1john 4:16. I'm surprised they don't teach that in seminary.
@hillerm
That's an irrelevant argument. He is not making a civil argument. His criticism is not of a civil institution, it is of another Lutheran church body, thus scriptural references are more relevant than anything else. Why do you hate freedom? A church's choice to adhere to what the Bible says does not hurt you. Any attempt to block religious freedom is tyranny.
No, actually it's God's law: EX 31:15 " Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death".
However, Jesus teaches in Mark 2:27 that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" Therefore, I extend this revolutionary principle thus: "Scripture was made for man not man for Scripture!" -and so now I read those other verses...
Abraham married a half sister, Caine couldn't have possibly married anyone other than a daughter he got with his mother Eve. David and Solomon practiced polygamy? Ok, how exactly is scripture being "consistent" here in regards to marriage?
@PhantomF9 Are you stating fact or opinion? The definition of marriage hasn't changed, ever! Genesis 2:24, affirmed by Paul in Ephesians 5. Jesus didn't take up the issue because was homosexuality allowable under the Law? No, it was punishable by death! Jesus was preaching to a Jewish audience, not Gentiles. Divorce is a huge problem in every church. It is serious because an unrepentant divorced person is just as accountable as an unrepentant homosexual as this is outside the boundaries.
Polygamy is an acceptable model - the kings of Israel practiced it and there is no law forbidding it. My point is that scripture may be a excellent source for salvation but an inconsistent one in regards to marriage.
And since science now says alcoholism can be inherited, we should not try to help those who have this addiction? I dont care what science says, any sin that is instructed as such in the Bible is offensive to God. Go ahead and love people straight to hell, but out of love, I will help them see the error in their ways as fellow Christians show me the error in my own ways. The reason there are sins in the first place is the original sin of Adam and Eve. God didn't create us to sin!
God created me with both a free will and a conscience. It's unfair of you to say that I wear blinders. I pointed out for example that God's ideas on marriage are inconsistent, that instituting slavery was evil, that Jesus intentionally broke the sabbath. Blinders would have prohibited me from seeing any of this -I would instead have defended or excused them. And as for your three Pauline verses - I apologize that I have not yet responded. I'll go over them tonight.
You're defending slavery! Oh -because biblical slavery is not the horrible, nasty sort that we had here in America -then explain -"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21) According to the bible we can beat our slaves just so long as they survive a day or two.
Let me ask you this, would you be ok with your pastor being an adulator? How about an extorter? Child molester? Alcoholic? We all have sins and are all sinners. Pastors carry out the public worship of a congregation. Scriptures require a pastor "to be above reproach." Not openly sinning against God. Any public impenitent, immoral sin should bar someone from being a pastor. I don't care how long the list. The list of questions above is only the beginning of that list.
You've indulged in a non-sequitor.
The discussion is *not* about whether a homosexual marriage has a direct impact on mine. Is *is* about the ELCA - a Christian body failing to be faithful to the Word of God by normalizing what is clearly sinful behavior - and leading their flock astray in the process.
Clearly you think that people should be allowed to marry whomever - and perhaps WHATEVER they desire. But God's word is clear. And that's the "opinion" that matters.
Sorry petrakid, my mistake I meant 1Sam 20:41 -I'll try to be more careful. This is the passage where David and Jonathan cry with one another while making out. Their love is definitely is not "godly love between two of God's children"- David describes it as "passing the love of women". And I'm not overlooking those other texts. You asked for an example of homosexuality acceptable by God. David is Isreal's greatest rulers and here he is in scripture professing an erotic love with Jonathan.
No a kiss among friends (not particularly in this culture) is innocent. However, kissing couples coupled (did you like that?) with an affection "passing the love of women" is suspect. And yes, I'm guilty at all times (if I can help it) of blatant eisegesis. The word of God is far too important to let others interpret it for me.
Jesus! What does above reproach mean in the context of 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1? Are we talking about public sins or private sins? The office of the overseer is a public office thus we must be talking about public sins. And yes, weve all broken Gods commandments, every single one of us, except for Jesus Christ. So youre saying because we all sin we should have a sin fest? Paul answered that question when he says By no means to the question Should we continue to sin so grace may increase.
I find your instruction to look at scripture from "God's perspective" to be presumptuous and dangerous. For example, if we looked at slavery from God's perspective we are are not only permitted to buy them and treat them as property (Lev 25:44-46) but we're even allowed to sell our own children as slaves (Ex 21:7-11). Do you really believe it is "God's design" that we own slaves? If not then why should "God's definition" of marriage be any less misguided?
@lykan21 Nice try, but wrong! Before you argue from an OT Law perspective, which is a difficult subject, let's look at creation. God created them male and female so that the two shall become one flesh (Matthew 19:3-5). Homosexuality goes against God's created order. You don't even need a Bible (special revelation), but only natural revelation to figure it out. That is why Paul uses homosexuality as his poster child for one following their own lustful desires, being their own God over God's will.
I know where youre going with Leviticus and you're getting your laws all mixed up, but hey when you've got a liberal, revisionist theology to push, why not. To me, 6 times seems like God is making a point. No different than other sins such as adultery or pride, or fill in the blank. If you chose to not hold a fellow Christian to account for Gods law, go for it! ITS A SIN in God's eyes. If it weren't than God would be a liar.
As hieronomy has recommended one good video on family values, I shall recommend another one. To fully understand what a biblical marriage is that fundamentalists should be fighting for, take a look at "Mrs. Betty Bowers Explains Traditional Marriage To Everyone Else" by Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian. It's far more enjoyable to watch than this video.
Wow, your true feelings were expressed there! The "scandal of particularity" might come into play. If God said it, it doesn't matter what I THINK OF IT! You seem to believe the Bible is just a human experience. That places us at odds. I believe the Bible is the very Word of God which was given to the writers of the Bible. This of course was not a problem until the enlighten period where pin heads like you thought they knew more than God. There are different types of law for different purposes!
How many references are in the Bible about homosexuality? And of those how many in the NT? Answer those questions before you place your own judgment over God's. That is if you are serious about the Word of God and the truth God proclaims from it.
My only point is that scripture is an excellent source for salvation. It's a terrible science book, guide to marriage, phone book, etc. However, I will take your advice. My opinions are not important. Blessings petrakid.
Did you really just frame this argument?
@pilot4321 lol you cannot disproves the flying spaghetti monster either, does that make him true too in your eyes?
@pilot4321 ever wore to different types of fabric at the same time? ever ate seafoods? Because that would be an error of your ways according to your beloved bible!
@pilot4321 the very same authority that gives your scriptures its power: None!
Quick question: how do you scared a child with thoughts of the bogeyman if the child has stopped believing in any sort metaphysical non-sense a long time ago?!
In my mind your imaginary friend has just as much power as Santa!
**(funny how i dont spell god with a capital letter but i do it for Santa!)
@lykan21 Well, I'm truly disheartened by your stance. I pray that one day, God (with the capital G) would bring you to understand His (with a capital H) grace and mercy through Christ (with a capital C).
In the end I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't. But science is not my god, so I don't much care. In the end faith is trust, and if you want to place your trust in the things of this world, go ahead!
@lykan21 Well, if you think the flying spaghetti monster will save you, well go for it! So, I think you just want to do what you want to do, no surprise, you're on this post trying to tear it down. So do it, and the consequences, whatever they are yours! Have a good life. . .