I loved hearing so many of Lenore's comments. My generation, grew up with the opportunities for growth and independence Lenore advocates as necessary. T/his is one of the plus sides of being a baby boomer. I'm very thankful I had these opportunities which included so many opportunities to do my own problem solving. I hope our kids will begin to get more of these opportunities as we move forward. Something as simple as walking or riding to and from school would be a great beginning. This was one of the points I made at the press conference celebrating the opening of the first protected bike lane in Lakewood CO. Independence, problem solving, and ACTIVITY can be the rewards.
Damn: "You matter in that you're a delightful and endangered pet." The truth of that literally made me tear up. This was sooooo much more powerful than I expected.
I am 66 now but still remember half a century later my “dropping” when I was around 10 I think. We were with a group of four and had a compass, a map and a flashlight. We were trained before how to use them. The fact that I still remember tells how excited it was. I highly recommend parents to organize this for their kids and give them a memorable experience. By the way, we didn’t know that the parents were hiding in the distance to follow our movements … 😀
Fascinating content! What always strikes me as a Dutchman about your output is that The Netherlands is portrayed as this heaven on earth (which in some ways it is) when in reality we have tons of problems as a country ourselves. Nevertheless we seem to be serving as an example of excellence for other countries, a source of inspiration. This makes me proud on the one hand but also puzzles me greatly. Are we so smart or are the others so stupid? This observation not only applies to your informative site but also to many other channels run by Americans going to or living in Europe. The juxtapositioning of helicopter parenting versus free reign parenting is a marvellous example. How come these Americans don’t get it when scientific evidence clearly points in the same direction? Mind boggling!
Yes, it is mind-boggling, for sure. I hope my content will serve as inspiration for the general public and leaders in communities around the globe that have allowed the automobile to so profoundly undermine their quality of life to see that there is another way centered on people-oriented design. The Netherlands is not alone in providing these benchmarking examples, and as you mention, y'all are not perfect and do have your challenges... no place is, and everywhere does. That said, you should be proud of what y'all have achieved and want to strive for even better conditions for all. Thanks for tuning in. Always much appreciated. Cheers! John
Inspiring interview. My wife and I grew up in different continents/cultures, yet as children we both controlled the streets. In NYC we were Human Traffic Calmers. The street was our stickball field. My wife's first impression when moving to LA was, "where are the people on the streets?" A daughter, who grew up free range, is now in a SoCal suburb, forced, by the structure of her city to become a helicopter parent. I see this mainly as a dictatorship of the automobile. Even Stalin did not have such control over parenthood. A "kid-friendly urban fabric" is easy in NYC & Paris but only a profound structural revolution can make American suburbia kid friendly.
A profound structural revolution is undoubtedly what is needed in many of our car-dependent communities around the globe. Thanks so much for tuning in, Mark!
Happy surprise to hear about "droppings". Still remember the droppings I was part of in my life. We usually got dropped in the "middle" of a forest with a flashlight or 2 and a general direction of where a "major" road, street or path was. This was in the time before mobile phones. Besides self confidence and trust, for me a major part of the droppings was the fact that you learned how to cooperate with other people. Sometimes people you knew well, sometimes with "strangers". You learned that everyone had his/her strengths and weaknesses and you could accomplish more when you worked together. I think we see this in many situations in later life. The military uses these kind of methods as well to grow team spirit and trust. Many companies use team building events in more or less the same way. Very nice conversation about a, for me, very important topic.
Growing up in the 1960s, we were basically kicked out of the house by our moms and told to "be home by dinner". We were on our own and we had a blast! We biked everywhere and explored and had fun! I'm thrilled that there's a movement to get kids out there "free range". Such an inspiring video!
I'm 57, and the way our parents let us roam around the island building rafts, crabbing, fishing, and looking for pirate treasure would be unthinkable today. We didn't have cell phones, and we'd be gone from sunup until well after dark, and they didn't know what we were doing or where we were. I asked my mom how she could stand not knowing where we were all day, and she just said it was normal then. We were out there using our brains to make fish traps, kites to fly, and slingshots to shoot hackberry gauls (we were forbidden to shoot rocks). We made boomerangs to hunt rabbits with and set snares. We weren't sitting home scrolling on our phones or playing video games for hours and hours.
I'm not in the USA. We got to play outside on the streets. There was barely any traffic and by the time I was around 8 we would take ourselves to school without an adult after having some earlier years with a carer who had taken us to school which made us familiar with the route. We also had shop errands. Every Sunday one of my siblings or I would be sent to fetch the Sunday newspaper from a corner shop. By the time I got to 11 I could travel further by bus when needed. We moved from the city to a quieter area and rode bicycles all holidays and after schools. Since we kept going to school in the same area from where we moved we needed the bus for the trip more than 30km so cycling was for fun when we got home. Sometimes errands would be to go to the supermarket and collect the family's weekly/monthly shopping. We'd take a long walk then get a taxi back with the groceries. Had we considered using panniers or a trailer at that time we could have just cycled there and back with the groceries LOL. Holidays were split up with maybe a trip away, going for a week to holiday camps and just being left to our own devices. That time was spent going on cycling outings, long walks, visiting rivers, shopping malls, markets etc. After attending the holiday camps the first few times we were expected to take ourselves there and come back after the week was done.
In Netherlands there is the term 'Free range (biological) chicken' . The term 'free range kids' has a strange connotation to me ...🤔 18:00 Afaik droppings are typically for boyscouts (I did it myself) or for youth clubs or school classes at a excusion camp. Never heard of individual parents organizing a dropping by themselves. More common (also for birthday parties) is the activity 'vossenjacht' ('fox hunt'). With a route description paper or direction arrows you orientate with a group of 3-5 for a route thru a city or area with quiz questions (optionally with dressed 'strangers' who you have to ask a question). 17:00 The cycling exam is important because from age 12 children go to highschool which is usually further away and bike skills are essential. (Unfortunately there is a number of kids nowadays that lack the reflex to react to a fall, and break limbs with it !). On a belgian podcast I heard a interesting reason/hypothesis for the urgency dutch give to cycling, that is the traditional 'pillarisation' ('verzuiling', see wikipedia) of dutch society in the past. Life and society went along (non) religious affiliation. Political parties, schools, Universities, trade unions, hospitals , public tv ,youth & sports clubs were organized along the line of being protestant, catholic , non-religious. In my village there were 4 grammar schools (2 catholic, a boys Joseph- and girls Maria School , a protestant school and a 'bible belt' Calvinistic school) . As catholics you'd go to a catholic highschool etc. Aside from that Highschool types (12 to 16-18 yr) were split : HAVO/VWO ('lyceum, gymnasium' ), 'middle' highschool, technical highschool, farmer highschool .. The school landscape was very fragmented so to say. So contrary to other countries there would not be 'a highschool' in a small town where all kids of town would go to, but in NL children would go all directions to towns further away. My siblings and I would go to school in 4 directions at 10-15 km away for example. A cousin of mine had to go 19km in the then barren wind swept polder in the new Flevoland province, where no trees grew yet. It is very hard to serve that by buses. So cycling to school was essential, what could not be lobbyed away for the car. Even in the days of the Jokinen plan for Amsterdam in NL bike paths kept being planned and built , in my rural region, thru the 60s and 70s. Going to school by bike was an underlying urgency for the 'Stop de kindermoord' movement...( I know 2 villages down the road school children had to cross a road for school, which caused a lot of children fatalities at one junction ! ).
Clearly an insider in this field who talks from first-hand experience. I tend to agree that pillarisation (verzuiling) is a characteristic that sets Dutch society apart from other comparable (Western) countries. Its influence on Dutch social fabric is enormous to this very day, although the phenomenon itself disintegrated like 60 years ago.
Let's start with saying that I am happy that such a project as Let Grow exists. I would almost say that it came about due to what I would call a typical American problem. Kids can't do anything unsupervised when it is outdoors. (You are a bad parent if you let your kid walk the next street over to visit a friend. Getting cops or CPS called on you for doing so.) Lenore says she let her 9 year old travel home alone by public transit, and the boy felt some type of achievement for having accomplished that little mission. Here in Europe (The Netherlands) the first reaction to that news would be, 9??? My kid did that at age 5. However, as it is the US, there are several other things to take into consideration, like ZONING laws. Over here, you can sent your kid to a supermarket to buy a few groceries. It is safe, it can be done. But in the US, having to travel 6 miles to a say Walmart that is next to the freeway is not exactly safe. First and foremost because it is next to a freeway, but zoning would not allow said supermarket to be in the suburb where the kid is living. Thus you don't allow a kid to ride his/her bike to get some groceries done. It is an aspect that needs to be drastically addressed. When it comes to all kinds of dangers, if which most are only on or minds, prepare and warn your children. Stranger danger is a nice thing, but teach kids what it means. The person at the cash register of a shop, might be a stranger but is not likely to be a danger to the kid. The "dump" story is funny, as I remember it even from my childhood. It was a boyscout thingy hehehe. However it is a great experience, the thing is you only need a few things that are important, knowing the emergency number. (In the US 911, UK 999, Europe 112 etc etc) But also remember, it is group of kids, not 1 kid alone that is dumped at a location trying to find their way back. As a group, you will see that team work is required, so it improves certain social skills. Now I also think again that bike trains/busses are a good thing to implement in the whole of activities of initiatives like Let Grow. It teaches children on road safety, rules of the road, and it can point out the more dangerous parts of a town/city. And it is leading by example. Because what you learns as a kid, you will more likely still do as an adult. Also you need to approach things with a few positive things for the adults, if you want to convince them to make certain changes. What if kids can go to, their sports or other activities by themselves ?? All of a sudden soccer moms are not so much required, giving them time for some other things, saving of the cost of fuel, etc etc etc So not only the kid improves his/her skill set, but there are advantages to the parents as well.
Yes! All excellent points. Brings me back to the key tenets I talk about creating an environment that supports a Culture of Activity, the hardware and software. Hardware as in the infrastructure such as safe, inviting and convenient mobility networks and, as you mentioned, the land uses. And software as in programs such as Let Grow to help enhance awareness and educate about the benefits associated with more childhood independence. Thanks so much for tuning in and for the thoughtful comments. Cheers! John
Talking about free range and about motoric reflexes.. I just came from a visit to Malmö in Sweden. What is remarkble there are strollers and buggies. You see them all over. With one seat or two seats..Baffling to me is that they carry kids up to 5-7. At that age kids should walk and run , not sit with folded knees in a small buggy ! Really strange...
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Excellent podcast! I hope more parents learn to let their children have more freedom to grow and learn.
Thank you so much for tuning in! I hope so, too.
I loved hearing so many of Lenore's comments. My generation, grew up with the opportunities for growth and independence Lenore advocates as necessary. T/his is one of the plus sides of being a baby boomer. I'm very thankful I had these opportunities which included so many opportunities to do my own problem solving. I hope our kids will begin to get more of these opportunities as we move forward. Something as simple as walking or riding to and from school would be a great beginning. This was one of the points I made at the press conference celebrating the opening of the first protected bike lane in Lakewood CO. Independence, problem solving, and ACTIVITY can be the rewards.
Thanks, Gary! Keep on keeping on 🙌
Damn: "You matter in that you're a delightful and endangered pet." The truth of that literally made me tear up. This was sooooo much more powerful than I expected.
Thank you so much for tuning in and for sharing your reaction. It was that way for me as well. Cheers! John
I am 66 now but still remember half a century later my “dropping” when I was around 10 I think. We were with a group of four and had a compass, a map and a flashlight. We were trained before how to use them. The fact that I still remember tells how excited it was.
I highly recommend parents to organize this for their kids and give them a memorable experience.
By the way, we didn’t know that the parents were hiding in the distance to follow our movements … 😀
Fantastic! Lasting memories indeed. I really appreciate you sharing this experience with us. Cheers! John
Fascinating content! What always strikes me as a Dutchman about your output is that The Netherlands is portrayed as this heaven on earth (which in some ways it is) when in reality we have tons of problems as a country ourselves. Nevertheless we seem to be serving as an example of excellence for other countries, a source of inspiration. This makes me proud on the one hand but also puzzles me greatly. Are we so smart or are the others so stupid? This observation not only applies to your informative site but also to many other channels run by Americans going to or living in Europe. The juxtapositioning of helicopter parenting versus free reign parenting is a marvellous example. How come these Americans don’t get it when scientific evidence clearly points in the same direction? Mind boggling!
Yes, it is mind-boggling, for sure. I hope my content will serve as inspiration for the general public and leaders in communities around the globe that have allowed the automobile to so profoundly undermine their quality of life to see that there is another way centered on people-oriented design. The Netherlands is not alone in providing these benchmarking examples, and as you mention, y'all are not perfect and do have your challenges... no place is, and everywhere does. That said, you should be proud of what y'all have achieved and want to strive for even better conditions for all. Thanks for tuning in. Always much appreciated. Cheers! John
Inspiring interview. My wife and I grew up in different continents/cultures, yet as children we both controlled the streets. In NYC we were Human Traffic Calmers. The street was our stickball field. My wife's first impression when moving to LA was, "where are the people on the streets?" A daughter, who grew up free range, is now in a SoCal suburb, forced, by the structure of her city to become a helicopter parent. I see this mainly as a dictatorship of the automobile. Even Stalin did not have such control over parenthood. A "kid-friendly urban fabric" is easy in NYC & Paris but only a profound structural revolution can make American suburbia kid friendly.
A profound structural revolution is undoubtedly what is needed in many of our car-dependent communities around the globe. Thanks so much for tuning in, Mark!
Happy surprise to hear about "droppings". Still remember the droppings I was part of in my life. We usually got dropped in the "middle" of a forest with a flashlight or 2 and a general direction of where a "major" road, street or path was. This was in the time before mobile phones. Besides self confidence and trust, for me a major part of the droppings was the fact that you learned how to cooperate with other people. Sometimes people you knew well, sometimes with "strangers". You learned that everyone had his/her strengths and weaknesses and you could accomplish more when you worked together. I think we see this in many situations in later life. The military uses these kind of methods as well to grow team spirit and trust. Many companies use team building events in more or less the same way. Very nice conversation about a, for me, very important topic.
Yay! Fantastic. Thank you so much for watching and for this meaningful context. Much appreciated. Cheers! John
Growing up in the 1960s, we were basically kicked out of the house by our moms and told to "be home by dinner". We were on our own and we had a blast! We biked everywhere and explored and had fun! I'm thrilled that there's a movement to get kids out there "free range". Such an inspiring video!
Thanks so much! I'm thrilled as well and hope this message gets out and the movement continues to grow. 🙏
I'm 57, and the way our parents let us roam around the island building rafts, crabbing, fishing, and looking for pirate treasure would be unthinkable today. We didn't have cell phones, and we'd be gone from sunup until well after dark, and they didn't know what we were doing or where we were. I asked my mom how she could stand not knowing where we were all day, and she just said it was normal then. We were out there using our brains to make fish traps, kites to fly, and slingshots to shoot hackberry gauls (we were forbidden to shoot rocks). We made boomerangs to hunt rabbits with and set snares. We weren't sitting home scrolling on our phones or playing video games for hours and hours.
Yeah, the same for me, and it's interesting how common this narrative is. Thanks so much for tuning in. Cheers! John
I'm not in the USA. We got to play outside on the streets. There was barely any traffic and by the time I was around 8 we would take ourselves to school without an adult after having some earlier years with a carer who had taken us to school which made us familiar with the route. We also had shop errands. Every Sunday one of my siblings or I would be sent to fetch the Sunday newspaper from a corner shop. By the time I got to 11 I could travel further by bus when needed.
We moved from the city to a quieter area and rode bicycles all holidays and after schools. Since we kept going to school in the same area from where we moved we needed the bus for the trip more than 30km so cycling was for fun when we got home. Sometimes errands would be to go to the supermarket and collect the family's weekly/monthly shopping. We'd take a long walk then get a taxi back with the groceries. Had we considered using panniers or a trailer at that time we could have just cycled there and back with the groceries LOL.
Holidays were split up with maybe a trip away, going for a week to holiday camps and just being left to our own devices. That time was spent going on cycling outings, long walks, visiting rivers, shopping malls, markets etc. After attending the holiday camps the first few times we were expected to take ourselves there and come back after the week was done.
Love it! Thanks so much for sharing and for watching. I really appreciate it. Cheers! John
Interesting show. All i can say is: Build those cycle tracks! That could solve a lot of issues.
Indeed! 🙌 It sure can't hurt. That's for darn sure. Thanks for watching. Cheers! John
This was interesting! Thank you!!!
Yay! You are quite welcome. Thank you for tuning in. Let's spread the word. Cheers! John
In Netherlands there is the term 'Free range (biological) chicken' . The term 'free range kids' has a strange connotation to me ...🤔
18:00 Afaik droppings are typically for boyscouts (I did it myself) or for youth clubs or school classes at a excusion camp. Never heard of individual parents organizing a dropping by themselves.
More common (also for birthday parties) is the activity 'vossenjacht' ('fox hunt'). With a route description paper or direction arrows you orientate with a group of 3-5 for a route thru a city or area with quiz questions (optionally with dressed 'strangers' who you have to ask a question).
17:00 The cycling exam is important because from age 12 children go to highschool which is usually further away and bike skills are essential. (Unfortunately there is a number of kids nowadays that lack the reflex to react to a fall, and break limbs with it !).
On a belgian podcast I heard a interesting reason/hypothesis for the urgency dutch give to cycling, that is the traditional 'pillarisation' ('verzuiling', see wikipedia) of dutch society in the past. Life and society went along (non) religious affiliation. Political parties, schools, Universities, trade unions, hospitals , public tv ,youth & sports clubs were organized along the line of being protestant, catholic , non-religious.
In my village there were 4 grammar schools (2 catholic, a boys Joseph- and girls Maria School , a protestant school and a 'bible belt' Calvinistic school) .
As catholics you'd go to a catholic highschool etc. Aside from that Highschool types (12 to 16-18 yr) were split : HAVO/VWO ('lyceum, gymnasium' ), 'middle' highschool, technical highschool, farmer highschool .. The school landscape was very fragmented so to say.
So contrary to other countries there would not be 'a highschool' in a small town where all kids of town would go to, but in NL children would go all directions to towns further away.
My siblings and I would go to school in 4 directions at 10-15 km away for example. A cousin of mine had to go 19km in the then barren wind swept polder in the new Flevoland province, where no trees grew yet.
It is very hard to serve that by buses. So cycling to school was essential, what could not be lobbyed away for the car. Even in the days of the Jokinen plan for Amsterdam in NL bike paths kept being planned and built , in my rural region, thru the 60s and 70s.
Going to school by bike was an underlying urgency for the 'Stop de kindermoord' movement...( I know 2 villages down the road school children had to cross a road for school, which caused a lot of children fatalities at one junction ! ).
Hehe, I used to raise "free-range" chickens, so yeah that's a little funny for me too.
Thank you so much for these helpful insights.
Cheers! John
Clearly an insider in this field who talks from first-hand experience. I tend to agree that pillarisation (verzuiling) is a characteristic that sets Dutch society apart from other comparable (Western) countries. Its influence on Dutch social fabric is enormous to this very day, although the phenomenon itself disintegrated like 60 years ago.
Let's start with saying that I am happy that such a project as Let Grow exists. I would almost say that it came about due to what I would call a typical American problem. Kids can't do anything unsupervised when it is outdoors. (You are a bad parent if you let your kid walk the next street over to visit a friend. Getting cops or CPS called on you for doing so.) Lenore says she let her 9 year old travel home alone by public transit, and the boy felt some type of achievement for having accomplished that little mission.
Here in Europe (The Netherlands) the first reaction to that news would be, 9??? My kid did that at age 5. However, as it is the US, there are several other things to take into consideration, like ZONING laws. Over here, you can sent your kid to a supermarket to buy a few groceries. It is safe, it can be done. But in the US, having to travel 6 miles to a say Walmart that is next to the freeway is not exactly safe. First and foremost because it is next to a freeway, but zoning would not allow said supermarket to be in the suburb where the kid is living. Thus you don't allow a kid to ride his/her bike to get some groceries done. It is an aspect that needs to be drastically addressed.
When it comes to all kinds of dangers, if which most are only on or minds, prepare and warn your children. Stranger danger is a nice thing, but teach kids what it means. The person at the cash register of a shop, might be a stranger but is not likely to be a danger to the kid.
The "dump" story is funny, as I remember it even from my childhood. It was a boyscout thingy hehehe. However it is a great experience, the thing is you only need a few things that are important, knowing the emergency number. (In the US 911, UK 999, Europe 112 etc etc) But also remember, it is group of kids, not 1 kid alone that is dumped at a location trying to find their way back. As a group, you will see that team work is required, so it improves certain social skills.
Now I also think again that bike trains/busses are a good thing to implement in the whole of activities of initiatives like Let Grow. It teaches children on road safety, rules of the road, and it can point out the more dangerous parts of a town/city. And it is leading by example. Because what you learns as a kid, you will more likely still do as an adult.
Also you need to approach things with a few positive things for the adults, if you want to convince them to make certain changes. What if kids can go to, their sports or other activities by themselves ?? All of a sudden soccer moms are not so much required, giving them time for some other things, saving of the cost of fuel, etc etc etc So not only the kid improves his/her skill set, but there are advantages to the parents as well.
Yes! All excellent points. Brings me back to the key tenets I talk about creating an environment that supports a Culture of Activity, the hardware and software. Hardware as in the infrastructure such as safe, inviting and convenient mobility networks and, as you mentioned, the land uses. And software as in programs such as Let Grow to help enhance awareness and educate about the benefits associated with more childhood independence. Thanks so much for tuning in and for the thoughtful comments. Cheers! John
@@ActiveTownsI couldn’t agree more!
Talking about free range and about motoric reflexes.. I just came from a visit to Malmö in Sweden. What is remarkble there are strollers and buggies. You see them all over. With one seat or two seats..Baffling to me is that they carry kids up to 5-7. At that age kids should walk and run , not sit with folded knees in a small buggy ! Really strange...
Wow, that is strange. I wonder what is going on there that is prompting this.