Dude .... there is no comparing a big box line array to a column personal line array system. They are personal systems designed for wide dispersion not a band PA. Maybe you are just trying to use a flat heat screwdriver for a Philips screw. One of the benefits of a personal line array is the elimination of monitor speakers on stage. I use the ip1000. I’m a solo act that plays smaller venues and some outdoor shows. It fits me perfectly. It’s the right tool for the right job. I would never think about mixing a whole band on an outside show with a personal line array system. It’s just the wrong tool for that job. Cheers man. Interesting thoughts. Keep up the good work.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, especially since you recognize that it depends on the nature of the gig what will sound better. My band used a PA consisting of a couple 18" Yorkville subs and several Mackie 3-ways. My Peavey subs I used more for getting the columns off the ground than sound reinforcement. Their performance was good, but spotty and sometimes smokey. My crossover point BTW was about 110 and the columns were happy receiving everything over that. We could be heard clear as a bell a half mile away at the outdoor events we specialized in doing. I am almost 70 now and hate having to trailer all that stuff, even the monitors were heavy as heck! I now have (in addition to a couple other conventional PA systems) a couple of Evolve 50s that I hook to a nice Mackie analog board and augment with a couple active 1000 watt 2-ways if the need arises. For small gigs up to hotel ball room size, these things are great, lightweight and compact. Many DJ operations I have heard seem to have particular problems with their bass frequencies. They sound tubby as heck. I have heard it happen enough that I am convinced they must be thinking that it sounds good! Those folks would definitely not like to use the Evolves in a large club situation playing techno (music?) due to the relatively low power available. I learned some stuff from your video! Thanks!
I appreciate you taking the time to watch. I've still got a couple column arrays in my inventory. I just make sure I use them where appropriate now. I think I had been expecting too much of column arrays when I was buying the big ones like the iP3000.
Good analysis. I am an electrical engineer and it's pretty obvious with all of the small form factor column array + mini-subs you are basically creating a heavily scooped mid system. Just looking and the drivers used makes that pretty obvious. But I would argue for smaller venues the form factor and the lower output midrange is a welcome trade-off taken with the superior portability of the systems and ease of setup, etc. This is precisely why I see these most often used in smaller venues for moderate to low volume applications.
Yeah. I don't mind them for small venues. We use a JBL Eon One every week for a trivia show and it works quite well. I like the iP500 as well. It's when you get to the bigger ones that cost a lot of $$ that I have issue with them. The iP3000 is just not worth it at all from the performance to the price point source is just better. And it's a heavy beast too. lol
@@TheAngrySoundTech I'm interested how the recent el-cheapo versions of these systems like the Gemini PA-300BT or the Behringer C200 sound in a small venue setting. Obviously they lack the bass of the bigger, more expensive systems but for $300-400 they may be usable and reliable enough for occasional use application.
I'm sure they would work well for smaller applications. My bet is the place they're lacking is in the system tuning. Because realistically even in the higher end column arrays the components are cheap. How much is a 2 inch speaker? $5? These things have crazy markup for the components that are in them. I was at an electro-voice event and they said one of their major brand name competitors actually used clock radio speakers for their column. They didn't say which brand but as an owner of the JBL Eon One I'm guessing it's that one. lol
So I haven't seen all of your videos, but I wonder what your thoughts are on the Bose L1 Model 2. If your supposition is that a longer array would be advantageous, those are about 6 .5 ft of speakers (24 drivers total per array, plus two 10" drivers in the B2 bass modules) In my experience with the Model 2s, I have done shows with as many as 12 performers (drums, 2 keys, 2 guitars, bass, and 6 vocals) with two Bose towers, two B2s, and two 18" powered subs) for 500 - 750 people. Freeing up the mains by routing more of the low end frequencies to the subs on an aux bus goes a long way to balancing the sound and allowing the mains to produce everything over 100hz. You are absolutely right about the column arrays needing to be above the crowd for best effect. Depending on the height of the stage I either put them at the corners of the stage risers or on top of the powered subs which is about a 2 ft lift. This works well by allowing some of the volume to be absorbed by the people on the dance floor while allowing some of the sound to radiate throughout the room. It works really well. PS, I'm not shilling for the Bose. It happens to be what I have and I know they have their weaknesses like all systems. For the types of gigs I do I'm considering the Evolve 50s for their light weight and simple set up! I borrowed a couple from a friend to demo and thew worked really well for smaller gigs.
I'll be honest I've never used the Bose L1 Model 2 so I can't comment much on it. Having a 6.5' array definitely helps focus the sound more at lower frequencies. I was personally looking at the HK Elements system for that exact reason. Hopefully sometime I'll get to take a listen to a System. As of right now I've only heard their Bose L1 Compact.
@@TheAngrySoundTech I have a series of 5 videos here on RUclips comparing the L1M2, Evolve 50, and a ZLX12P for reference. The tone characteristics are quite different but honestly I think one could get the same sound out of either product with EQ. Check out my vids and let me know what you think!
I agree with your video but having said that for a mobile dj with small to medium size gigs of weddings, parties and dive bars the throw of the column speakers is usually ideal because coupled with it's better dispersion you tend to get a sound that is ideal in that sweet spot (dance floor) but a sound in the room that is clear in larger area but allows guests who do not wish to be close to the floor to still hear a good sound they can talk over. It's just about the right gear for right event. I like the look and ease of the newer "stick" speakers but use traditional tripod horns where I need a bigger fill.
So….what would you use for a 5 piece band that plays small to medium size venues? I have the iP2000 and have liked them for some reasons, but agree with you on other reasons.
Thank you for your video. I enjoyed your thoughts and research. My concern with column arrays, in particular Bose L1 Model 2 which I used for 5 years. The overall frequency does not extend to the full 20k or beyond ? Maximum now is 14k as per specs. There are other brands in column array that don’t reproduce up to 20k also. The old Bose 802’s also (as per the specs) only go to 16k. Sure most people can’t hear too far above 16k most of the time. However there are overtones that make up the timbre of instruments that extend beyond 16k. I think if a speaker isn’t reproducing those high frequencies, instruments may sound odd. We may not be able to hear the higher frequencies but we would feel those that they’re not present in the sound reproduction from the speaker. Do you think that the ability for a speaker to produce frequencies above 16k is crucial for sound reproduction in live music instruments and audio playback? Also what was the online calculator you were using for calculating the cross over frequencies? I already have a Yamaha DBR12”. I’m considering getting a 2nd to use them with a 12”/15” sub. What’s your thoughts? Cheers Matt.
There is a good wavelength calculator here: www.omnicalculator.com/physics/Wavelength also read this www.soundonsound.com/techniques/line-arrays-explained Here's the snippet that matters: "to achieve directionality a sound source needs to be larger than the wavelength it is producing. To achieve focus, or near-zero dispersion, which is a more stringent requirement, it needs to be somewhere approaching four times the wavelength." To answer your question. Yes, if you're looking for the best sound possible you need a system that can reproduce the high notes. I know a sound tech that has a saying "No highs, No lows... Must be a Bose" lol Also I'd get the 15" sub to run with your DBR12's. I like my 12" subs but sometimes I wish I had 15" subs.
I've got a video where I compare the coverage pattern of a column array to the coverage pattern of a traditional point source speaker. It's quite eye opening and really shows why it sounds like the sound comes from everywhere with a column array.
@@TheAngrySoundTech I tested a few of these line array PA systems the other day in a store and the sound really does spread out so to say. I was particularly impressed with the quality of the sound coming from the Yamaha Stagepass 1K. I've also tested an EV Evolve 50 and that also sounded great.
I have not had a chance to test out the Yamaha StagePass 1K yet. They went with the smallest drivers of anyone for the column so I'm interested in hearing what that sounds like. One downside is I believe they also have the highest crossover point from sub to column. But my thoughts is I might upgrade my JBL Eon One to a StagePass 1K at some point in time. The EV does have good sound it's is definitely one of the better ones on the market. I don't mind column arrays for smaller events (speech or background music). But I'm not a fan when it comes to larger events.
@@TheAngrySoundTech thanks for the reply. I'm also looking at the LD Systems Maui 28 G2 as an option because I'm trying to avoid relying on tiny displays to change mixer settings due to being visually impaired. Both the Yamaha Stagepass 1K or Maui 28 G2 don't have on board LCDs. I've also heard some great things about the Maui systems.
Just came across this video. Excellent. Just to be candid I think RCF, db Tech have the best column “array” systems going at a premium for a reason. That being said using an additional seperate sub brings the systems response down to the lower sub frequencies more appropriately but most people wouldn’t go that far, kind of defeats the practical & hence portability aspects. The x-overs in these systems are too high towards the low mid freq band and that’s why they don’t have the bass response we’d expect. They sound wooly compared to a tradition point source set up. I wish someone would release a true mini line array that is affordable perhaps in around 3-4K for a stereo set up. Until then the Evox 12 and dB ES 1203 are the best bet, just my opinion. I think Bose’s F1 system is actually very good value atm. Also a pair of LD Systems Curve 500TS set ups are excellent value if on a budget. Just my opinion. Great video and thanks for all your perspectives. You have a new subscriber.
I went back and forth on buying either the Evox 12 or ES1203 as I think they are the premium products in this category but I think I've spent too much money on column arrays. I'm a little burnt out for now (or I should say my wallet is. lol) . I may hop back in and test out the next generation when they come out. Although with that being said I was thinking about upgrading my JBL Eon One to Yamaha StagePas 1k or the Mackie SRM Flex. I like having at least one small column array with built in mixer in my inventory for small events because they are very handy.
The Angry Sound Tech That’s understandable! Yamaha and Mackies offerings will shake things based on the specs. I’m in the market for a small stereo rig and the Yamaha looks really good though Mackie are always good value and also sound great too. Hard choice!
I own 4 Bose F1's and I couldn't be happier. Some won't be willing to spend 2k per top and bottom set but I've blown people away with it's capabilities... Check out my channel.
thanks, good points delivered from a neutral guy who thinks about sound and working with sound and doesn't just try to sell stuff. I'm here because I have an LD Maui 5 for acoustic + voice (which is actually pretty good sounding for this purpose) and an LD Maui 28 G2 for electric solo gigs with full drums/bass/keys backing. Now I bought two Yamaha DXR 10 mkII for guitar modelling use (Helix) in the live band and they sound so good that I'm considering to get the DXS 12 sub for them and get rid of the Maui 28 G2 for solo gigs - but - it will be more boxes to carry, speakers stands (hate them!), lots more cables and a much uglier setup.
You know that's always the tough part. I recently bought two of the Mackie SRM-Flex column array systems. They sound pretty good and are compact. I plan to use it for wedding ceremonies, small karaoke events and as a small utility speaker to throw in corners for background music. It doesn't sound as good as point source with a sub but sometimes being compact and easy to setup/transport trumps premium sound quality. Also since we're in lockdown I've got the Mackie in my basement to practice singing karaoke and for background tunes. It's nice to have in the corner.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said! I do the same as you (live sound & DJ) and ended up just biting the bullet. I bought into the d&b audiotechnik 'ecosystem'. Q7 for long throw & dispersion control down to 400hz, E12-D for wide dispersion and E8 for DJing small/medium sized events (upto 200). B6, E15-X and E12-X subs makes everything very versatile. I usually use E8 tops with E15-X subs (and a D20 amp) at Weddings. 1x D20 amp is my main amp. 1x D12 and 2x D6 can run extra fills or monitors. Very expensive but when you're spending a decent amount of money on a Midas Mixing Console (albeit their entry level kit), you really need a decent speaker system for it to shine!
I uploaded a video that'll be available here so you can hear how well the sound throws at the back of the dancefloor at a 700+ person corporate event: ruclips.net/video/4DJPpqNKbVQ/видео.html
Thanks for the video I have a 5 piece rock band that is looking to play smaller venues (around 200 people) indoors and outdoors. I was thinking of getting 2 ev50 column arrays and eventually add an 18" sub. Is there a better setup you would suggest? Trying to stay at or below $3500
4 figure crowds with a point source, go 90's (and earlier) and use a horizontally splayed array. If you don't aim your boxes right there's definitely noticeable high end drop out, but set up right, you can get some impressive horsepower out of those systems.
I should also add that the J8 and Evolve 50 are new for me. I only have a few gigs with them so far. I think that they will get a lot of use for weddings and corporate parties. I don't do proms. I am keeping my larger system for the occasional outdoor cookout and block parties.
Definitely these units are not for an all-rounder sound supplier. I have always thought of e’m as appropriate for very small bands where portability is crucial.
I agree. I just bought two Mackie SRM-Flex column arrays and they seem to work nicely for small events, background music and wedding ceremonies. Some of my issues/complaints probably stemmed from trying to use them for events in which they just weren't suited for.
I now have the RCF J8 and the EV Evolve 50. I kept my main system which uses RCF 12A's over RCF subs. I think that each has it's place. When I used to do small gigs of say 50 people, I tried going out with just the 12 inch tops. They did ok but bass was lacking for dance music. But in a lot of instances the audience is drinking or whatever and never notices. But no doubt going out to a small gig that size with the J8 or Evolve 50 sounds much better. I get more thumb with the cabs on the floor. I also find that I can adjust the sound on the high end or mids using eq if I need to. It's not that big of a deal. When I get a gig up to 100 people or an outdoor dance oriented gig, I really like to take some bigger subs. In the end, I probably would be happy with just the 12 inch tops in maybe 10% of the gigs I do. Whereas now I would be happy 80% of the time using either the J8 or Evolve 50. As you can guess, 80% of my gigs are indoors with less than 100 people.
The J8 and Evolve 50 are definitely some of the best when it comes to column arrays. I agree they pack more low end much than just using a pair of 12's. Not quite up to the level of 12's and a sub though. I'm actually selling my JMIX8 and J8 this week. For now I'm calling it quits on column arrays and going back to point source. The scaleability of the HK Audio Elements system has caught my eye but it's got a hefty price tag so I don't think I'm going to buy it just to test it out. lol I saw it at Infocomm and unfortunately they just had it there to look at. Not to listen to.
@@TheAngrySoundTech you mentioned you are trying to build up to a bigger system and I see that you're buying the Yamaha dxr series. I have the same, so I'm wondering how you plan on chaining them together... will you be using anything to take care of the speaker delay like a dbx driverack?
Typically if I'm doing an event where I'll need to delay a set of speakers half way down a room I'll typically do that through my digital mixer. If I'm doing minor time alignments to match up subs and tops I'll do that on a driverack. The Driverack PA2 is the driverack I use. I actually have two of them in my road case. My DXR speakers will be used for small to medium sized events as well as larger corporate events that may require delayed speakers. If I'm doing a big rock show or larger DJ event I'll use the DZR series of speakers.
@@TheAngrySoundTech that's cool you can set delay straight from your digital mixer. I didn't know they had that option. Is the drive rack even really necessary if you have a digital mixer then? I'm thinking of putting together a small rack system with maybe a drive rack and / or a digital mixer and some wireless mics...
Thank you so much for your input, really helped to understand better this kind of systems, specially crossover points, omnidirectional vs focused sound, and dispersion. I´m interested on column arrays, because I'm planning on buying a small, portable, and loud system, to rent for small events, small bands, djs, and similar applications, I live in Mexico and I can see quite a potential market for this kind of soundsystems. So my question is, what would you choose between a pair of RCF J8's, and a pair of Turbosound's 2000? I tought that turbosounds having 16 drivers would be a decissive point, but after watching your video I'm quite unsure. Those models are my only options because after asking on a lot of local stores, they're the only ones available (and Mauis) that fit my budget. Thank you so much!
btw, after comparing prices, the best ones i have found so far are: $2536 USD for a pair of RCFs and $2726 USD for a pair of ip2000s. Quite a difference from retail prices at the US :(
While i think column arrays are dope in theory, they all suck the big one when it comes to bass! The wide dispersion is great for weddings but the low end drivers are all trash for the amount of money they charge for them. Bought a Turbosound Ip300 colomun array top and i am thinking of paring it with either yamaha dxs 15, or the rcf 705 asii
I have the Yamaha DXS12MKII and really like it. I can only imagine the DXS15MKII is even better. I was at a speaker expo recently and one of the speaker companies wouldn't name which company it was but they said one of the column arrays from a prominent speaker manufacturer uses the same speakers in their column as they put in a clock radio. Very cheap components go into these and they sell them for a premium.
@@TheAngrySoundTech I am a big fan of Yamaha I currently own to Yamaha DXR12s that I do most of my events with. The thing is oh, I want to go down to one column of sound which is why I bought the IP 300 to pair it with a single 15-inch sub. The ip300 will do great for speeches it'll do great for cocktail hour music with that wide dispersion and it'll do fine for the dance floor the sub will give me good chick base as well as a little bit of Rumble when I'm playing Mo Bamba Old Town Road and modern pop top 40 and dance music. Or at least that's what I'm hoping I did a video on my channel chronicling my use of the IP 300 and my extreme dislike of the majority of the column arrays on the market now they are too expensive for to little sound. I did not even go into the sound specifics you did as far as 100 Hertz and 80 Hertz and all that. I just looked at it from a practical use standpoint at all the events that I've done before and what I assume I'll be doing in the future for small weddings up to 250 people.
@@TheAngrySoundTech as for the company using clock radio speakers I would not be surprised if it was several companies that are using them! I totally agree on the Evolve 50s. I think $3,000 for two of those things is absolutely positively ridiculous. In my opinion you hit the nail on the head when you said not to spend $4,000 on two turbosound ip3000s. So one things a Yamaha rig you can buy with that for Grand would completely annihilate to ip3000s for starters.
@@TheAngrySoundTechcan't wait to see your vid whit the Yamaha dxs18 xlf in action. Also it would be super cool if you do a series of vídeo opening some of your boxes (like de dxsxlf) to show the insides , speaker and other components. :)
This info is all very eye-opening. I use an IP 300 with a cheap sub ($200 12in Kustom) and it sounds great for smaller engagements. (For bigger events, I have point source speakers, the Yamaha dxr series 10's, 12's and 15 inch sub). I was thinking about upping my game and getting a more expensive column array system, but it sounds like the drawbacks to their frequency coverage, with the subwoofer covering part of the mid-range, coupled with the fact that they are using cheap drivers would make that pointless for me. I have much more control over the low and mid end by using an actual sub, cheap as it may be, and the separate ip300 which has mid drivers and high-frequency drivers. I just use a mixer and aux feed to the sub so that I control what channels get the low end, which is perfect for live sound. My hybrid column array speaker system cost me only $600.. A few hundred dollars more if I account for the mixer and the upgraded hydraulic speaker sub pole I bought. Thanks for the info!
What do think of the HK Polar 12 ? It has 6 x 3’’ Mids & 1 x 1’’ Tweeter and measures in all 33’’ .. 12’’ Woofer ... 2000 watts ... Would that be enough to replace 12’’ PA Speakers at 2000 watts ? Thanks !!
I thought about getting the Polar 10 when it came out but after finding out it was just a tweaked and rebranded Sound King speaker I decided not too. Now HK says they completely rebuilt the speaker and it's not just some Chinese design but I'm not sure if I believe it. Most everyone else that has speakers made in China at least designs them from the ground up... I might change my tune if I hear it and I'm impressed but I can never find HK speakers around here to listen to.
I watched your video to the end and I am totally agreed with you that J8 failed in mid-range sound projection of in comparison with DB Tech DVX 8 HP speaker.I heard the J8 sound but I did not feel it was coming from the speaker in front of me standing 15 feet away. You described as sound coming from everywhere is the description that I am looking for. I also compared one DVX 8 HP with a 15 inch sub (Mackie SWA1501) aganst 2 J8 and the High and Mid sounds were much better the J8 ones. For point source system which speaker & sub that you would recommend. My setup would be for 200 ppl in a 80 x 35 feet room and focusing on a best vocal sound speaker system. My mics are 865 Sennheiser. Thanks in advance.
Is comparing a column array application (small party, DJ, mobile) a fair comparison with line array applications (like concerts, full production, shows)? Seems odd to hold column arrays with line arrays.... completely different application use cases.
I talk about both because column arrays are using line array technology on a smaller scale. But most are so small you don't actually receive any of the benefits of having an array of speakers.
Could you run a DXR10 mkii and link out to an IP300 (which likely only arrays above 2kHz)? Would there be issues if you don't run a cross over between them?
I really enjoyed the content in this video! I perform at restaurants and smallish lounge/ bar situations..keyboard, vocals, occasional drum machine.Directivity and projection is not at the top of my list but good sound quality is. I almost prefer a sound everywhere effect and want to keep the sound somewhat in a localized area. I often do fine with one Mackie srm 10. Do you think a Collumn speaker like a Mackie flex or Turbo Sound 500 would work well for my application?? (I use an xr 12 digital mixer)
A buddy of mine demoed a Bose L1 Pro8 for me a few weeks back and we compared it to my Mackie SRM-Flex. There was no comparison... The Bose got louder, sounded better and had better bass response. Eventually I'll be putting my SRM-Flex's up for sale and swapping over to the Bose speakers. I wasn't as big of a fan of the Pro16. I thought the bass in that one sounded a little muddy but the Pro8 is probably the best sounding and loudest in the small column class. It's worth the extra money. But if budget is an issue I would get the SRM-Flex over the Turbosound iP500. I do like both of them but the SRM-Flex will have a little better bass because of the 10" driver instead of an 8" that the Turbosound has. Although since you have a digital mixer you might want to also consider the RCF J8.
What do you recommend for smaller rooms? Say 20’x20k or 20’x30’? I don’t need portability and I’m looking for the best quality sound I can get for the money. Budget around $1500.
If you don't need portability I'd get a set of point source 12's or 15's. That will have the best sound quality. You should be able to get a nice pair for $1500.
The only column array I can solidly recommend right now is the RCF EVOX 12. I've been testing it out for the last few months at all my gigs and I can say this is the one column array that I find myself liking more and more with each gig I use it at. With other column arrays I always ended up finding things I didn't like about them the more I used them. But the RCF EVOX 12: gets loud (so it can cover big venues), rejects feedback (I really haven't had any issues with feedback like I did with other column arrays), projects audio in the direction you point the speakers (other column arrays tend to blast audio in every direction (these have the most focused dispersion I've seen so far in a column array). I'm going to have to do another update video on my RCF EVOX 12's soon.
Where did you get the idea that collumn arrays create a straight beam? What I understand is that one of the strong points of a collumn array is that it disperses sound wider and more evenly/homogeneously than traditional point source speakers. For instance my two LD Systems Maui 11 G2 systems have a horizontal dispersion of 120 degrees horizontal and only 20 degrees verticaly. That makes it easier to fill a room with sound 'everywhere' and with less interference from floors and ceilings. These also make it possible to replace floor monitors and mic feedback has never been an issue. These type of PA's are AFAIK designed with singer-songwriters, entertainers, small bands and allround music and speech in mind. They are compact and lightweight, easier to handle, carry and setup. I never have to lift them over my head. They're also very inobtrusive, even elegant in any setting and with a small footprint. Those bulky heavy tops on tripods, with or without scrimms, often look very clumsy and intrusive imho. Having said that, these two active 11G2's with integrated mixers and bluetooth cost me about 666 Euros each and work very well for the smaller to medium sized gigs, with 50-100 guests and pop, tango and wedding-music. I know many mobile/wedding DJ's use (a pair of) the bigger brother, the Maui 28 G2 and are very happy with them. Whenever I do serious disco-night and feel the need for more chess-pounding low end bass however, I rent one or two 18" active subs. If a basic PA-set would 've consisted of two 12" fullrange tops, you would need to do that as well. Now, if most of the events are more like loud disco/dance and/or playing for 100+ people, than a pair of 12" tops and one or two 15/18" subs would be better suited.
For the most part I think we're in agreement. I do own a JBL Eon One that I use for wedding ceremonies, trivia shows and other random smaller events. I've been thinking about picking up a couple of the battery powered Maui 5's as well. Under 100 people, low to mid volume levels I have no issue with column arrays. Over 100 people with loud volume levels I prefer point source. I do have another video on my channel where I compare the coverage pattern by frequency of the RCF Evox 12 and a similarly priced point source speaker. It's pretty interesting.
Long/ large arrays do this well over a broad freq spectrum if their drivers are big enough, but as he said in the video, most of these shorter arrays with tiny drivers only actually do this with the higher frequencies and thats ok if you just need low-level background music but when you need more volume it becomes a bit "thin" in the mids. This has been my experience too.
I’m also surprised you didn’t speak on the Bose L1 model 2. I was hoping to trade in or sell my Bose and pick up the J8 and Jmix8 to use most for weddings
I've never used any bose systems before. I recently came very close to buying the new Bose L1 Pro16 but after seeing a few videos on wobbly columns and a buzzing I chose not to. I also almost bought the J8 and JMix8 again. I know I was a little rough on it in my review but dang I missed the portability... I ended up spending more and getting the EVOX 12. But at some point I'll probably get a smaller system too. Either evox 8, J8 or FBT cs1000. Some days I feel like I'm all over the place 🤣 but I've spend most of COVID downsizing so I think columns fit better now.
Thank you for your reviews very helpful. I’m pretty sure I’m going to move forward with the J8 and Jmix8. Although my Bose L1 model 2 is nice. When I have done weddings with just the one stack I have had several people ask is that all you have for a sound system. I believe they felt they were getting cheated with just one stack. Although there was more than enough power to cover the room it was about appearance.
@@TheAngrySoundTech that’s the thing. There are people making a mountain over a mole hill about the wobble on the Bose column. I’ve seen the videos, there are only a few videos about this compared to the significantly more positive reviews on the Bose, yet people have chosen to listen the a minority opinion. I might add is that the minority opinion is further amplified by people that have never used or seen the offending product and/or validating their buying decisions When I saw the videos, it gave me a lot of angst mainly because the form factor is ideal but much was being made about the so called wobble. So I’ve spent months looking at all Line arrays and jiggling their columns and this whole wobble thing is absolute nonsense. Yes there is a sway and all line arrays sway the JBLs sway far more than the Bose, the Yamahas are about the same etc. The point Is reviews on RUclips need to be taken with a grain of salt and you need to take the information that a reviewer says and check it out for yourself. As for wanting longer columns, they exist, the Bose L1 Pro16 and the even longer Bose L1 Pro32 The last point is don’t listen to a DJs about sound quality (controversial) as they want an over hyped bottom end which I get but if you’re a musician it becomes mud.
I'd love to try them out and really give them a good test run to formulate an opinion. The fact that the compression drivers break the array worries me a bit but with how low the crossover point is from the compression driver to the 6" drivers it might not matter. I've only heard DB Technologies IG4T and IG3T and those were just short speaker demos. The RCF NXL24 and NXL44 I've only been able to touch at InfoComm they were not in the demo room to listen to. Also I will say I do think the fact that these have compression drivers with horns probably puts them a step above the EVOX series in terms of dispersion control over the higher frequencies. I wish they were a little cheaper I'd buy four and make a proper video discussing them.
Well done. I think the proliferation of these is mostly a response to Bose. With Bose's marketing prowess, they have been able to sell lot's of inferior speakers to uninformed consumers. All the other manufacturers have jumped in the game to get some of the sales. Why let Bose get all the action? I completely agree with your assessment of these types of devices. NO projection or focus.
I have a 5 piece funk band I have 3 ip2000 everywhere we play people tell us how punchy and tight the bass is so I'm very pleased Crystal clear and only 65 pounds and I have a Dodge journey I can fit all of the gear in it that's what I'm talking about ..
I'd love to review an iP300. I've had many people in the comments section say they use it quite successfully but I haven't had a chance to use one yet. I do not own the iP300 right now so I'll have to add it to my list of things to buy!
And for that note I will not buy a Columns array. I find them overpriced dollar per spl or dollar per number of guest. That’s my 2C I will keep my rcf 422a and get a pair of subs. They will blow any column array at that price point. Thanks for your video mate keep it. Subscribed before this video
I agree. The big reason why I kept trying them out was I thought even though we were getting less SPL with them I thought they would have the line array effect where sound would diminish by 3db per doubling of distance instead of 6db per doubling of distance. But the arrays are just to short to gain any meaningful benefit. Point source is still king of the castle in my book.
Hello mister Angry, i was planning to by two IP 2000 but you make me doubt. I give concerts for around 20 to 40 people, it's more a relaxing concert, where people are lying down on a yogamat. I play ethnical instruments, and the most used is didgeridoo. after listening to your video, i suppose the IP 2000 will not be sufficient enough to bring the very low base sound. Can you advice me what the "best" system i could use to do the job. thank you Best regards Peter
There will always be something bigger and better that you could use but in all honesty I think you'd be just fine with a pair of iP2000's for your concerts. It's not going to have earth shaking low end but it should provide a nice full range sound. My main recommendation would be to have the speakers at least 10' away from your audience. This way there is less of a chance of shooting the audio over people's heads.
I was looking for one EON 618S - Actief 18" PA-subwoofer in the middle and two JBL EON 615 would that be more suitable? (didgeridoo is in the range of 20hz)
The Eon 618S with Eon tops would definitely be better than the Turbosound system. It won't get you down to 20 Hz but will get you down to around 40Hz. I will warn you that we had the Eon 500 series in our rental inventory once and I had trouble with the amps in more than one speaker. It's possible that they fixed that issue with the 600 series. I typically steer people towards the Electro-Voice ZLX-12P or ZLX-15P when they are looking for something in the Eon price range. But they do not make a ZLX sub and when you bump up to the ELX200-18SP subwoofer it doesn't go as low as the EON 618S.
I did the opposite, from Regular to Line array then back to Regular. The problem with line array, the tops are diffendent to buttoms, unlike traditional, you have option to bring just the tops for small event or with subsfor bigger vents. Just my 2 cent.
my QSC K8.2 and Electro-Voice ELX200 sub sound way better than the J8 and evolve 50... gets louder and still looks elegant. I sold my RCF J8 and JMIX8 they looked nice but i couldnt stand the sound
I agree! Standard point source speakers will always sound better than columns. I recently bought the EVOX 12 to test out a high end column. Even with it I think you'd have better sound if you spend $5k on a standard system.
at the start of the video, but i can guess... all of them have no balls. Nothing beats a quality 15" sub and 12" / 1" mid top properly crossed over and running at twice the RMS of the drivers with separate amplification . These column arrays sounds compressed and usually running flat out with no headroom and struggle with SPL.
to add - check out the HK elements where the signal to the 2" drivers is the same and you can have up to 24 2" drivers which is 3x E835 model number would be interesting to calculate the wavelength projection
Sound quality wise I don't think any column array will beat a traditional point source/sub combo. I just bought some RCF EVOX 12's to give a test run. I was considering getting the HK Audio Elements Big Bass system because of it's expandability and that fact that it's the only one that is a true line array. I've only seen the elements system on display at infocomm and they wouldn't let me listen to it. So I wasn't willing to drop that much cash on something I've never heard. Maybe one day I'll get to listen to them!
I'm pretty sure I said this in the video but I'll just add that I think the only real benefit of a column array is how clean looking the form factor is. I bought the EVOX 12's because I'm updating the gear I use for DJing weddings. I might also use them at an acoustic festival I'm running sound for in May (just to see how they are in a live setting).
@@TheAngrySoundTech Agree, I have used elements over a couple of years in all different configurations , to my ears it lacks that high end sparkle that a compression driver gives but at the same time when loud thats a good thing as compression drivers distort and a harsh on the ears more so than a paper cone. I have used big base with 2x e835 a side , it sounded great but all the elements stuff really lacks proper low end even the big base does compared to other cabinets of the same size like a DSR15 it also is missing 40hz if your playing RnB/Hiphop type music. The action starts at 50hz. There are 2 amps inside the big base and E110AS version and they dont even active crossover the signal so each amp is sending the full bandwidth signal to the sub and the mid /top. That to me is bad design , the crossover in the sub gets red hot with extended use and I have had the PTC protection device on the crossover fail in a few of the subs, litrally just cut them out to get it working again. They do the same with the tops sending full range and using a capcitor inline to roll off the bottom end - very hifi but i dont see why the tops need to get 50hz -130hz , just reduces headtoom. Yet to hear an EVOX 12 but I imagine its like a hk elemets with 1 E835 a side but more beef with the 15" sub.
also if the elements subs get near any water they expand, they are made from MDF! So any chips on the paint and some drink on the floor and its bye bye cabinet!
Am I too late to the party? You didnt mention the Bose L1 Mod 2. I need a line array comparable to the Bose, as far as output. My L1 Mod 2 with the B2 is getting aged and I want to replace it .
I haven't owned any of the Bose systems so I can't comment much on them or give you an opinion as to what might be good to replace it with that performs similar or better. The only one I've heard in person is the small one and that was just background music at InfoComm. They had a bunch of them set up in the hallways playing music.
Get the Bose F1 system. They best. Bose F1 Model 812 | Flexible Array Dual System Loudspeaker and Subwoofer www.amazon.com/dp/B013ILY8FA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_lP00Db4CP303Z
I actually ran sound for an acoustic festival recently and the stage I used had Mackie Thumps installed 🤣 It didn't sound the best and one of the floor monitors was already dead when I got there... Cheap junk.
Dude .... there is no comparing a big box line array to a column personal line array system. They are personal systems designed for wide dispersion not a band PA. Maybe you are just trying to use a flat heat screwdriver for a Philips screw. One of the benefits of a personal line array is the elimination of monitor speakers on stage. I use the ip1000. I’m a solo act that plays smaller venues and some outdoor shows. It fits me perfectly. It’s the right tool for the right job. I would never think about mixing a whole band on an outside show with a personal line array system. It’s just the wrong tool for that job. Cheers man. Interesting thoughts. Keep up the good work.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, especially since you recognize that it depends on the nature of the gig what will sound better. My band used a PA consisting of a couple 18" Yorkville subs and several Mackie 3-ways. My Peavey subs I used more for getting the columns off the ground than sound reinforcement. Their performance was good, but spotty and sometimes smokey. My crossover point BTW was about 110 and the columns were happy receiving everything over that. We could be heard clear as a bell a half mile away at the outdoor events we specialized in doing. I am almost 70 now and hate having to trailer all that stuff, even the monitors were heavy as heck! I now have (in addition to a couple other conventional PA systems) a couple of Evolve 50s that I hook to a nice Mackie analog board and augment with a couple active 1000 watt 2-ways if the need arises. For small gigs up to hotel ball room size, these things are great, lightweight and compact. Many DJ operations I have heard seem to have particular problems with their bass frequencies. They sound tubby as heck. I have heard it happen enough that I am convinced they must be thinking that it sounds good! Those folks would definitely not like to use the Evolves in a large club situation playing techno (music?) due to the relatively low power available. I learned some stuff from your video! Thanks!
I appreciate you taking the time to watch. I've still got a couple column arrays in my inventory. I just make sure I use them where appropriate now. I think I had been expecting too much of column arrays when I was buying the big ones like the iP3000.
I love these videos. Useful feedback from a real world use from someone who understands what they are listening for.
Good analysis. I am an electrical engineer and it's pretty obvious with all of the small form factor column array + mini-subs you are basically creating a heavily scooped mid system. Just looking and the drivers used makes that pretty obvious. But I would argue for smaller venues the form factor and the lower output midrange is a welcome trade-off taken with the superior portability of the systems and ease of setup, etc. This is precisely why I see these most often used in smaller venues for moderate to low volume applications.
Yeah. I don't mind them for small venues. We use a JBL Eon One every week for a trivia show and it works quite well. I like the iP500 as well. It's when you get to the bigger ones that cost a lot of $$ that I have issue with them. The iP3000 is just not worth it at all from the performance to the price point source is just better. And it's a heavy beast too. lol
@@TheAngrySoundTech I'm interested how the recent el-cheapo versions of these systems like the Gemini PA-300BT or the Behringer C200 sound in a small venue setting. Obviously they lack the bass of the bigger, more expensive systems but for $300-400 they may be usable and reliable enough for occasional use application.
I'm sure they would work well for smaller applications. My bet is the place they're lacking is in the system tuning. Because realistically even in the higher end column arrays the components are cheap. How much is a 2 inch speaker? $5? These things have crazy markup for the components that are in them. I was at an electro-voice event and they said one of their major brand name competitors actually used clock radio speakers for their column. They didn't say which brand but as an owner of the JBL Eon One I'm guessing it's that one. lol
This makes a lot of sense, thank you very much for taking so much time and trouble to give your thoughts on this
You're welcome. I've spent a lot of time thinking about column arrays over the last couple years!
So I haven't seen all of your videos, but I wonder what your thoughts are on the Bose L1 Model 2. If your supposition is that a longer array would be advantageous, those are about 6 .5 ft of speakers (24 drivers total per array, plus two 10" drivers in the B2 bass modules)
In my experience with the Model 2s, I have done shows with as many as 12 performers (drums, 2 keys, 2 guitars, bass, and 6 vocals) with two Bose towers, two B2s, and two 18" powered subs) for 500 - 750 people. Freeing up the mains by routing more of the low end frequencies to the subs on an aux bus goes a long way to balancing the sound and allowing the mains to produce everything over 100hz.
You are absolutely right about the column arrays needing to be above the crowd for best effect. Depending on the height of the stage I either put them at the corners of the stage risers or on top of the powered subs which is about a 2 ft lift. This works well by allowing some of the volume to be absorbed by the people on the dance floor while allowing some of the sound to radiate throughout the room. It works really well.
PS, I'm not shilling for the Bose. It happens to be what I have and I know they have their weaknesses like all systems. For the types of gigs I do I'm considering the Evolve 50s for their light weight and simple set up! I borrowed a couple from a friend to demo and thew worked really well for smaller gigs.
I'll be honest I've never used the Bose L1 Model 2 so I can't comment much on it. Having a 6.5' array definitely helps focus the sound more at lower frequencies. I was personally looking at the HK Elements system for that exact reason. Hopefully sometime I'll get to take a listen to a System. As of right now I've only heard their Bose L1 Compact.
@@TheAngrySoundTech I have a series of 5 videos here on RUclips comparing the L1M2, Evolve 50, and a ZLX12P for reference. The tone characteristics are quite different but honestly I think one could get the same sound out of either product with EQ. Check out my vids and let me know what you think!
I agree with your video but having said that for a mobile dj with small to medium size gigs of weddings, parties and dive bars the throw of the column speakers is usually ideal because coupled with it's better dispersion you tend to get a sound that is ideal in that sweet spot (dance floor) but a sound in the room that is clear in larger area but allows guests who do not wish to be close to the floor to still hear a good sound they can talk over.
It's just about the right gear for right event. I like the look and ease of the newer "stick" speakers but use traditional tripod horns where I need a bigger fill.
So….what would you use for a 5 piece band that plays small to medium size venues? I have the iP2000 and have liked them for some reasons, but agree with you on other reasons.
Thank you for your video. I enjoyed your thoughts and research. My concern with column arrays, in particular Bose L1 Model 2 which I used for 5 years. The overall frequency does not extend to the full 20k or beyond ? Maximum now is 14k as per specs. There are other brands in column array that don’t reproduce up to 20k also.
The old Bose 802’s also (as per the specs) only go to 16k. Sure most people can’t hear too far above 16k most of the time. However there are overtones that make up the timbre of instruments that extend beyond 16k.
I think if a speaker isn’t reproducing those high frequencies, instruments may sound odd. We may
not be able to hear the higher frequencies but we would feel those that they’re not present in the sound reproduction from the speaker.
Do you think that the ability for a speaker to produce frequencies above 16k is crucial for sound reproduction in live music instruments and audio playback? Also what was the online calculator you were using for calculating the cross over frequencies?
I already have a Yamaha DBR12”. I’m considering getting a 2nd to use them with a 12”/15” sub. What’s your thoughts?
Cheers Matt.
There is a good wavelength calculator here: www.omnicalculator.com/physics/Wavelength also read this www.soundonsound.com/techniques/line-arrays-explained
Here's the snippet that matters: "to achieve directionality a sound source needs to be larger than the wavelength it is producing. To achieve focus, or near-zero dispersion, which is a more stringent requirement, it needs to be somewhere approaching four times the wavelength."
To answer your question. Yes, if you're looking for the best sound possible you need a system that can reproduce the high notes. I know a sound tech that has a saying "No highs, No lows... Must be a Bose" lol
Also I'd get the 15" sub to run with your DBR12's. I like my 12" subs but sometimes I wish I had 15" subs.
Heard am EV EVOLVE 50 tonight with female voice and plugged acoustic guitar, you're totally right about the sound coming from everywhere.
I've got a video where I compare the coverage pattern of a column array to the coverage pattern of a traditional point source speaker. It's quite eye opening and really shows why it sounds like the sound comes from everywhere with a column array.
@@TheAngrySoundTech I tested a few of these line array PA systems the other day in a store and the sound really does spread out so to say. I was particularly impressed with the quality of the sound coming from the Yamaha Stagepass 1K. I've also tested an EV Evolve 50 and that also sounded great.
I have not had a chance to test out the Yamaha StagePass 1K yet. They went with the smallest drivers of anyone for the column so I'm interested in hearing what that sounds like. One downside is I believe they also have the highest crossover point from sub to column. But my thoughts is I might upgrade my JBL Eon One to a StagePass 1K at some point in time. The EV does have good sound it's is definitely one of the better ones on the market. I don't mind column arrays for smaller events (speech or background music). But I'm not a fan when it comes to larger events.
@@TheAngrySoundTech thanks for the reply. I'm also looking at the LD Systems Maui 28 G2 as an option because I'm trying to avoid relying on tiny displays to change mixer settings due to being visually impaired. Both the Yamaha Stagepass 1K or Maui 28 G2 don't have on board LCDs. I've also heard some great things about the Maui systems.
If you get the LD Systems Maui 28G2 let me know what you think about it. I've wondered if they sound better than the Turbosound column arrays.
Just came across this video. Excellent.
Just to be candid I think RCF, db Tech have the best column “array” systems going at a premium for a reason. That being said using an additional seperate sub brings the systems response down to the lower sub frequencies more appropriately but most people wouldn’t go that far, kind of defeats the practical & hence portability aspects.
The x-overs in these systems are too high towards the low mid freq band and that’s why they don’t have the bass response we’d expect. They sound wooly compared to a tradition point source set up.
I wish someone would release a true mini line array that is affordable perhaps in around 3-4K for a stereo set up.
Until then the Evox 12 and dB ES 1203 are the best bet, just my opinion.
I think Bose’s F1 system is actually very good value atm. Also a pair of LD Systems Curve 500TS set ups are excellent value if on a budget. Just my opinion.
Great video and thanks for all your perspectives. You have a new subscriber.
I went back and forth on buying either the Evox 12 or ES1203 as I think they are the premium products in this category but I think I've spent too much money on column arrays. I'm a little burnt out for now (or I should say my wallet is. lol) . I may hop back in and test out the next generation when they come out. Although with that being said I was thinking about upgrading my JBL Eon One to Yamaha StagePas 1k or the Mackie SRM Flex. I like having at least one small column array with built in mixer in my inventory for small events because they are very handy.
The Angry Sound Tech That’s understandable! Yamaha and Mackies offerings will shake things based on the specs. I’m in the market for a small stereo rig and the Yamaha looks really good though Mackie are always good value and also sound great too. Hard choice!
I own 4 Bose F1's and I couldn't be happier. Some won't be willing to spend 2k per top and bottom set but I've blown people away with it's capabilities... Check out my channel.
Check out the FBT CS-1000. You can stack two of the columns and negate some of the issues mentioned here.
they have HF drivers that break the array up though
thanks, good points delivered from a neutral guy who thinks about sound and working with sound and doesn't just try to sell stuff.
I'm here because I have an LD Maui 5 for acoustic + voice (which is actually pretty good sounding for this purpose) and an LD Maui 28 G2 for electric solo gigs with full drums/bass/keys backing. Now I bought two Yamaha DXR 10 mkII for guitar modelling use (Helix) in the live band and they sound so good that I'm considering to get the DXS 12 sub for them and get rid of the Maui 28 G2 for solo gigs - but - it will be more boxes to carry, speakers stands (hate them!), lots more cables and a much uglier setup.
You know that's always the tough part. I recently bought two of the Mackie SRM-Flex column array systems. They sound pretty good and are compact. I plan to use it for wedding ceremonies, small karaoke events and as a small utility speaker to throw in corners for background music. It doesn't sound as good as point source with a sub but sometimes being compact and easy to setup/transport trumps premium sound quality. Also since we're in lockdown I've got the Mackie in my basement to practice singing karaoke and for background tunes. It's nice to have in the corner.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said! I do the same as you (live sound & DJ) and ended up just biting the bullet. I bought into the d&b audiotechnik 'ecosystem'. Q7 for long throw & dispersion control down to 400hz, E12-D for wide dispersion and E8 for DJing small/medium sized events (upto 200). B6, E15-X and E12-X subs makes everything very versatile. I usually use E8 tops with E15-X subs (and a D20 amp) at Weddings.
1x D20 amp is my main amp.
1x D12 and 2x D6 can run extra fills or monitors.
Very expensive but when you're spending a decent amount of money on a Midas Mixing Console (albeit their entry level kit), you really need a decent speaker system for it to shine!
I uploaded a video that'll be available here so you can hear how well the sound throws at the back of the dancefloor at a 700+ person corporate event: ruclips.net/video/4DJPpqNKbVQ/видео.html
Thanks for the video I have a 5 piece rock band that is looking to play smaller venues (around 200 people) indoors and outdoors. I was thinking of getting 2 ev50 column arrays and eventually add an 18" sub. Is there a better setup you would suggest? Trying to stay at or below $3500
4 figure crowds with a point source, go 90's (and earlier) and use a horizontally splayed array. If you don't aim your boxes right there's definitely noticeable high end drop out, but set up right, you can get some impressive horsepower out of those systems.
I should also add that the J8 and Evolve 50 are new for me. I only have a few gigs with them so far. I think that they will get a lot of use for weddings and corporate parties. I don't do proms. I am keeping my larger system for the occasional outdoor cookout and block parties.
If you see the evox 12 or evox 8.
As a 2 way speaker. It has better bass and better throw than most 15 inch tops.
I agree with that!
Definitely these units are not for an all-rounder sound supplier. I have always thought of e’m as appropriate for very small bands where portability is crucial.
I agree. I just bought two Mackie SRM-Flex column arrays and they seem to work nicely for small events, background music and wedding ceremonies. Some of my issues/complaints probably stemmed from trying to use them for events in which they just weren't suited for.
I now have the RCF J8 and the EV Evolve 50. I kept my main system which uses RCF 12A's over RCF subs.
I think that each has it's place. When I used to do small gigs of say 50 people, I tried going out with just the 12 inch tops. They did ok but bass was lacking for dance music. But in a lot of instances the audience is drinking or whatever and never notices. But no doubt going out to a small gig that size with the J8 or Evolve 50 sounds much better. I get more thumb with the cabs on the floor.
I also find that I can adjust the sound on the high end or mids using eq if I need to. It's not that big of a deal.
When I get a gig up to 100 people or an outdoor dance oriented gig, I really like to take some bigger subs.
In the end, I probably would be happy with just the 12 inch tops in maybe 10% of the gigs I do. Whereas now I would be happy 80% of the time using either the J8 or Evolve 50. As you can guess, 80% of my gigs are indoors with less than 100 people.
The J8 and Evolve 50 are definitely some of the best when it comes to column arrays. I agree they pack more low end much than just using a pair of 12's. Not quite up to the level of 12's and a sub though. I'm actually selling my JMIX8 and J8 this week. For now I'm calling it quits on column arrays and going back to point source. The scaleability of the HK Audio Elements system has caught my eye but it's got a hefty price tag so I don't think I'm going to buy it just to test it out. lol I saw it at Infocomm and unfortunately they just had it there to look at. Not to listen to.
For hip hop and house a traditional setup hits harder.
@@TheAngrySoundTech you mentioned you are trying to build up to a bigger system and I see that you're buying the Yamaha dxr series. I have the same, so I'm wondering how you plan on chaining them together... will you be using anything to take care of the speaker delay like a dbx driverack?
Typically if I'm doing an event where I'll need to delay a set of speakers half way down a room I'll typically do that through my digital mixer. If I'm doing minor time alignments to match up subs and tops I'll do that on a driverack. The Driverack PA2 is the driverack I use. I actually have two of them in my road case. My DXR speakers will be used for small to medium sized events as well as larger corporate events that may require delayed speakers. If I'm doing a big rock show or larger DJ event I'll use the DZR series of speakers.
@@TheAngrySoundTech that's cool you can set delay straight from your digital mixer. I didn't know they had that option. Is the drive rack even really necessary if you have a digital mixer then? I'm thinking of putting together a small rack system with maybe a drive rack and / or a digital mixer and some wireless mics...
Thank you so much for your input, really helped to understand better this kind of systems, specially crossover points, omnidirectional vs focused sound, and dispersion.
I´m interested on column arrays, because I'm planning on buying a small, portable, and loud system, to rent for small events, small bands, djs, and similar applications, I live in Mexico and I can see quite a potential market for this kind of soundsystems. So my question is, what would you choose between a pair of RCF J8's, and a pair of Turbosound's 2000? I tought that turbosounds having 16 drivers would be a decissive point, but after watching your video I'm quite unsure. Those models are my only options because after asking on a lot of local stores, they're the only ones available (and Mauis) that fit my budget. Thank you so much!
btw, after comparing prices, the best ones i have found so far are: $2536 USD for a pair of RCFs and $2726 USD for a pair of ip2000s. Quite a difference from retail prices at the US :(
While i think column arrays are dope in theory, they all suck the big one when it comes to bass! The wide dispersion is great for weddings but the low end drivers are all trash for the amount of money they charge for them.
Bought a Turbosound Ip300 colomun array top and i am thinking of paring it with either yamaha dxs 15, or the rcf 705 asii
I have the Yamaha DXS12MKII and really like it. I can only imagine the DXS15MKII is even better.
I was at a speaker expo recently and one of the speaker companies wouldn't name which company it was but they said one of the column arrays from a prominent speaker manufacturer uses the same speakers in their column as they put in a clock radio. Very cheap components go into these and they sell them for a premium.
@@TheAngrySoundTech I am a big fan of Yamaha I currently own to Yamaha DXR12s that I do most of my events with. The thing is oh, I want to go down to one column of sound which is why I bought the IP 300 to pair it with a single 15-inch sub. The ip300 will do great for speeches it'll do great for cocktail hour music with that wide dispersion and it'll do fine for the dance floor the sub will give me good chick base as well as a little bit of Rumble when I'm playing Mo Bamba Old Town Road and modern pop top 40 and dance music. Or at least that's what I'm hoping I did a video on my channel chronicling my use of the IP 300 and my extreme dislike of the majority of the column arrays on the market now they are too expensive for to little sound.
I did not even go into the sound specifics you did as far as 100 Hertz and 80 Hertz and all that. I just looked at it from a practical use standpoint at all the events that I've done before and what I assume I'll be doing in the future for small weddings up to 250 people.
@@TheAngrySoundTech as for the company using clock radio speakers I would not be surprised if it was several companies that are using them! I totally agree on the Evolve 50s. I think $3,000 for two of those things is absolutely positively ridiculous. In my opinion you hit the nail on the head when you said not to spend $4,000 on two turbosound ip3000s. So one things a Yamaha rig you can buy with that for Grand would completely annihilate to ip3000s for starters.
@@TheAngrySoundTechcan't wait to see your vid whit the Yamaha dxs18 xlf in action. Also it would be super cool if you do a series of vídeo opening some of your boxes (like de dxsxlf) to show the insides , speaker and other components. :)
This info is all very eye-opening. I use an IP 300 with a cheap sub ($200 12in Kustom) and it sounds great for smaller engagements. (For bigger events, I have point source speakers, the Yamaha dxr series 10's, 12's and 15 inch sub). I was thinking about upping my game and getting a more expensive column array system, but it sounds like the drawbacks to their frequency coverage, with the subwoofer covering part of the mid-range, coupled with the fact that they are using cheap drivers would make that pointless for me. I have much more control over the low and mid end by using an actual sub, cheap as it may be, and the separate ip300 which has mid drivers and high-frequency drivers. I just use a mixer and aux feed to the sub so that I control what channels get the low end, which is perfect for live sound. My hybrid column array speaker system cost me only $600.. A few hundred dollars more if I account for the mixer and the upgraded hydraulic speaker sub pole I bought. Thanks for the info!
What do think of the HK Polar 12 ? It has 6 x 3’’ Mids & 1 x 1’’ Tweeter and measures in all 33’’ .. 12’’ Woofer ... 2000 watts ... Would that be enough to replace 12’’ PA Speakers at 2000 watts ? Thanks !!
I thought about getting the Polar 10 when it came out but after finding out it was just a tweaked and rebranded Sound King speaker I decided not too. Now HK says they completely rebuilt the speaker and it's not just some Chinese design but I'm not sure if I believe it. Most everyone else that has speakers made in China at least designs them from the ground up... I might change my tune if I hear it and I'm impressed but I can never find HK speakers around here to listen to.
I watched your video to the end and I am totally agreed with you that J8 failed in mid-range sound projection of in comparison with DB Tech DVX 8 HP speaker.I heard the J8 sound but I did not feel it was coming from the speaker in front of me standing 15 feet away. You described as sound coming from everywhere is the description that I am looking for. I also compared one DVX 8 HP with a 15 inch sub (Mackie SWA1501) aganst 2 J8 and the High and Mid sounds were much better the J8 ones.
For point source system which speaker & sub that you would recommend. My setup would be for 200 ppl in a 80 x 35 feet room and focusing on a best vocal sound speaker system. My mics are 865 Sennheiser.
Thanks in advance.
Is there a word missing here ? "and the High and Mid sounds were much better (missing word) ?? the J8 ones.
Is comparing a column array application (small party, DJ, mobile) a fair comparison with line array applications (like concerts, full production, shows)? Seems odd to hold column arrays with line arrays.... completely different application use cases.
I talk about both because column arrays are using line array technology on a smaller scale. But most are so small you don't actually receive any of the benefits of having an array of speakers.
There's another issue with having the subs seperated. The alleys the create where there's no bass.
Could you run a DXR10 mkii and link out to an IP300 (which likely only arrays above 2kHz)? Would there be issues if you don't run a cross over between them?
I wouldn't recommend mixing full range cabinets that are different models.
I really enjoyed the content in this video! I perform at restaurants and smallish lounge/ bar situations..keyboard, vocals, occasional drum machine.Directivity and projection is not at the top of my list but good sound quality is. I almost prefer a sound everywhere effect and want to keep the sound somewhat in a localized area. I often do fine with one Mackie srm 10. Do you think a Collumn speaker like a Mackie flex or Turbo Sound 500 would work well for my application?? (I use an xr 12 digital mixer)
A buddy of mine demoed a Bose L1 Pro8 for me a few weeks back and we compared it to my Mackie SRM-Flex. There was no comparison... The Bose got louder, sounded better and had better bass response. Eventually I'll be putting my SRM-Flex's up for sale and swapping over to the Bose speakers. I wasn't as big of a fan of the Pro16. I thought the bass in that one sounded a little muddy but the Pro8 is probably the best sounding and loudest in the small column class. It's worth the extra money. But if budget is an issue I would get the SRM-Flex over the Turbosound iP500. I do like both of them but the SRM-Flex will have a little better bass because of the 10" driver instead of an 8" that the Turbosound has. Although since you have a digital mixer you might want to also consider the RCF J8.
Learned heaps thanks man
What do you recommend for smaller rooms? Say 20’x20k or 20’x30’? I don’t need portability and I’m looking for the best quality sound I can get for the money. Budget around $1500.
If you don't need portability I'd get a set of point source 12's or 15's. That will have the best sound quality. You should be able to get a nice pair for $1500.
What do think about HK audio Polar 10?
Btw, thanks for your content. Very informative.
Don't know if you saw it but I did upload a Polar 10 video for you. It's got all my rambling thoughts on it. lol
What one would be good for a large karaoke venue
The only column array I can solidly recommend right now is the RCF EVOX 12. I've been testing it out for the last few months at all my gigs and I can say this is the one column array that I find myself liking more and more with each gig I use it at. With other column arrays I always ended up finding things I didn't like about them the more I used them. But the RCF EVOX 12: gets loud (so it can cover big venues), rejects feedback (I really haven't had any issues with feedback like I did with other column arrays), projects audio in the direction you point the speakers (other column arrays tend to blast audio in every direction (these have the most focused dispersion I've seen so far in a column array). I'm going to have to do another update video on my RCF EVOX 12's soon.
Where did you get the idea that collumn arrays create a straight beam? What I understand is that one of the strong points of a collumn array is that it disperses sound wider and more evenly/homogeneously than traditional point source speakers.
For instance my two LD Systems Maui 11 G2 systems have a horizontal dispersion of 120 degrees horizontal and only 20 degrees verticaly. That makes it easier to fill a room with sound 'everywhere' and with less interference from floors and ceilings. These also make it possible to replace floor monitors and mic feedback has never been an issue. These type of PA's are AFAIK designed with singer-songwriters, entertainers, small bands and allround music and speech in mind.
They are compact and lightweight, easier to handle, carry and setup. I never have to lift them over my head. They're also very inobtrusive, even elegant in any setting and with a small footprint. Those bulky heavy tops on tripods, with or without scrimms, often look very clumsy and intrusive imho.
Having said that, these two active 11G2's with integrated mixers and bluetooth cost me about 666 Euros each and work very well for the smaller to medium sized gigs, with 50-100 guests and pop, tango and wedding-music. I know many mobile/wedding DJ's use (a pair of) the bigger brother, the Maui 28 G2 and are very happy with them.
Whenever I do serious disco-night and feel the need for more chess-pounding low end bass however, I rent one or two 18" active subs. If a basic PA-set would 've consisted of two 12" fullrange tops, you would need to do that as well.
Now, if most of the events are more like loud disco/dance and/or playing for 100+ people, than a pair of 12" tops and one or two 15/18" subs would be better suited.
For the most part I think we're in agreement. I do own a JBL Eon One that I use for wedding ceremonies, trivia shows and other random smaller events. I've been thinking about picking up a couple of the battery powered Maui 5's as well. Under 100 people, low to mid volume levels I have no issue with column arrays. Over 100 people with loud volume levels I prefer point source.
I do have another video on my channel where I compare the coverage pattern by frequency of the RCF Evox 12 and a similarly priced point source speaker. It's pretty interesting.
Long/ large arrays do this well over a broad freq spectrum if their drivers are big enough, but as he said in the video, most of these shorter arrays with tiny drivers only actually do this with the higher frequencies and thats ok if you just need low-level background music but when you need more volume it becomes a bit "thin" in the mids. This has been my experience too.
What's your opinion on the Bose F1 System. I have 4 total. (4tops and 4 bottoms) it project's very well
That's a system I haven't gotten to hear yet. I hope to one day tho!
I’m also surprised you didn’t speak on the Bose L1 model 2. I was hoping to trade in or sell my Bose and pick up the J8 and Jmix8 to use most for weddings
I've never used any bose systems before. I recently came very close to buying the new Bose L1 Pro16 but after seeing a few videos on wobbly columns and a buzzing I chose not to. I also almost bought the J8 and JMix8 again. I know I was a little rough on it in my review but dang I missed the portability... I ended up spending more and getting the EVOX 12. But at some point I'll probably get a smaller system too. Either evox 8, J8 or FBT cs1000. Some days I feel like I'm all over the place 🤣 but I've spend most of COVID downsizing so I think columns fit better now.
Thank you for your reviews very helpful. I’m pretty sure I’m going to move forward with the J8 and Jmix8. Although my Bose L1 model 2 is nice. When I have done weddings with just the one stack I have had several people ask is that all you have for a sound system. I believe they felt they were getting cheated with just one stack. Although there was more than enough power to cover the room it was about appearance.
@@TheAngrySoundTech that’s the thing. There are people making a mountain over a mole hill about the wobble on the Bose column. I’ve seen the videos, there are only a few videos about this compared to the significantly more positive reviews on the Bose, yet people have chosen to listen the a minority opinion. I might add is that the minority opinion is further amplified by people that have never used or seen the offending product and/or validating their buying decisions
When I saw the videos, it gave me a lot of angst mainly because the form factor is ideal but much was being made about the so called wobble. So I’ve spent months looking at all Line arrays and jiggling their columns and this whole wobble thing is absolute nonsense. Yes there is a sway and all line arrays sway the JBLs sway far more than the Bose, the Yamahas are about the same etc.
The point Is reviews on RUclips need to be taken with a grain of salt and you need to take the information that a reviewer says and check it out for yourself.
As for wanting longer columns, they exist, the Bose L1 Pro16 and the even longer Bose L1 Pro32
The last point is don’t listen to a DJs about sound quality (controversial) as they want an over hyped bottom end which I get but if you’re a musician it becomes mud.
any thoughts about RCF NXL24?
I'd love to try them out and really give them a good test run to formulate an opinion. The fact that the compression drivers break the array worries me a bit but with how low the crossover point is from the compression driver to the 6" drivers it might not matter. I've only heard DB Technologies IG4T and IG3T and those were just short speaker demos. The RCF NXL24 and NXL44 I've only been able to touch at InfoComm they were not in the demo room to listen to. Also I will say I do think the fact that these have compression drivers with horns probably puts them a step above the EVOX series in terms of dispersion control over the higher frequencies. I wish they were a little cheaper I'd buy four and make a proper video discussing them.
Db technologies es1002... 8x4" fullrange.
Crossover 180 hz
Well done. I think the proliferation of these is mostly a response to Bose. With Bose's marketing prowess, they have been able to sell lot's of inferior speakers to uninformed consumers. All the other manufacturers have jumped in the game to get some of the sales. Why let Bose get all the action? I completely agree with your assessment of these types of devices. NO projection or focus.
I know a sound tech that has a saying "No Highs, No Lows... Must be a Bose" lol
I have a 5 piece funk band I have 3 ip2000 everywhere we play people tell us how punchy and tight the bass is so I'm very pleased Crystal clear and only 65 pounds and I have a Dodge journey I can fit all of the gear in it that's what I'm talking about ..
Review the turbosound ip300 please. =)
I'd love to review an iP300. I've had many people in the comments section say they use it quite successfully but I haven't had a chance to use one yet. I do not own the iP300 right now so I'll have to add it to my list of things to buy!
@@TheAngrySoundTech thank you so much for replying, love your videos I'm learning so much from you, keep up the good work.
And for that note I will not buy a Columns array. I find them overpriced dollar per spl or dollar per number of guest. That’s my 2C
I will keep my rcf 422a and get a pair of subs. They will blow any column array at that price point.
Thanks for your video mate keep it. Subscribed before this video
I agree. The big reason why I kept trying them out was I thought even though we were getting less SPL with them I thought they would have the line array effect where sound would diminish by 3db per doubling of distance instead of 6db per doubling of distance. But the arrays are just to short to gain any meaningful benefit. Point source is still king of the castle in my book.
Hello mister Angry, i was planning to by two IP 2000 but you make me doubt. I give concerts for around 20 to 40 people, it's more a relaxing concert, where people are lying down on a yogamat. I play ethnical instruments, and the most used is didgeridoo. after listening to your video, i suppose the IP 2000 will not be sufficient enough to bring the very low base sound. Can you advice me what the "best" system i could use to do the job. thank you Best regards Peter
There will always be something bigger and better that you could use but in all honesty I think you'd be just fine with a pair of iP2000's for your concerts. It's not going to have earth shaking low end but it should provide a nice full range sound. My main recommendation would be to have the speakers at least 10' away from your audience. This way there is less of a chance of shooting the audio over people's heads.
I was looking for one EON 618S - Actief 18" PA-subwoofer in the middle and two JBL EON 615 would that be more suitable? (didgeridoo is in the range of 20hz)
The Eon 618S with Eon tops would definitely be better than the Turbosound system. It won't get you down to 20 Hz but will get you down to around 40Hz. I will warn you that we had the Eon 500 series in our rental inventory once and I had trouble with the amps in more than one speaker. It's possible that they fixed that issue with the 600 series. I typically steer people towards the Electro-Voice ZLX-12P or ZLX-15P when they are looking for something in the Eon price range. But they do not make a ZLX sub and when you bump up to the ELX200-18SP subwoofer it doesn't go as low as the EON 618S.
Sounds to me like you know what you’re talking about cruise where you sold you’re equipment
Totally love the j8 rcf but each his own I’ll never go back to regular speakers
I did the opposite, from Regular to Line array then back to Regular. The problem with line array, the tops are diffendent to buttoms, unlike traditional, you have option to bring just the tops for small event or with subsfor bigger vents. Just my 2 cent.
my QSC K8.2 and Electro-Voice ELX200 sub sound way better than the J8 and evolve 50... gets louder and still looks elegant. I sold my RCF J8 and JMIX8 they looked nice but i couldnt stand the sound
I agree! Standard point source speakers will always sound better than columns. I recently bought the EVOX 12 to test out a high end column. Even with it I think you'd have better sound if you spend $5k on a standard system.
Go Look at the LD Curve
at the start of the video, but i can guess... all of them have no balls. Nothing beats a quality 15" sub and 12" / 1" mid top properly crossed over and running at twice the RMS of the drivers with separate amplification . These column arrays sounds compressed and usually running flat out with no headroom and struggle with SPL.
to add - check out the HK elements where the signal to the 2" drivers is the same and you can have up to 24 2" drivers which is 3x E835 model number would be interesting to calculate the wavelength projection
Sound quality wise I don't think any column array will beat a traditional point source/sub combo. I just bought some RCF EVOX 12's to give a test run. I was considering getting the HK Audio Elements Big Bass system because of it's expandability and that fact that it's the only one that is a true line array. I've only seen the elements system on display at infocomm and they wouldn't let me listen to it. So I wasn't willing to drop that much cash on something I've never heard. Maybe one day I'll get to listen to them!
I'm pretty sure I said this in the video but I'll just add that I think the only real benefit of a column array is how clean looking the form factor is. I bought the EVOX 12's because I'm updating the gear I use for DJing weddings. I might also use them at an acoustic festival I'm running sound for in May (just to see how they are in a live setting).
@@TheAngrySoundTech Agree, I have used elements over a couple of years in all different configurations , to my ears it lacks that high end sparkle that a compression driver gives but at the same time when loud thats a good thing as compression drivers distort and a harsh on the ears more so than a paper cone. I have used big base with 2x e835 a side , it sounded great but all the elements stuff really lacks proper low end even the big base does compared to other cabinets of the same size like a DSR15 it also is missing 40hz if your playing RnB/Hiphop type music. The action starts at 50hz. There are 2 amps inside the big base and E110AS version and they dont even active crossover the signal so each amp is sending the full bandwidth signal to the sub and the mid /top. That to me is bad design , the crossover in the sub gets red hot with extended use and I have had the PTC protection device on the crossover fail in a few of the subs, litrally just cut them out to get it working again. They do the same with the tops sending full range and using a capcitor inline to roll off the bottom end - very hifi but i dont see why the tops need to get 50hz -130hz , just reduces headtoom. Yet to hear an EVOX 12 but I imagine its like a hk elemets with 1 E835 a side but more beef with the 15" sub.
also if the elements subs get near any water they expand, they are made from MDF! So any chips on the paint and some drink on the floor and its bye bye cabinet!
I think ip 300 + sub will be ok with u
That's one I would be interested in trying. Unfortunately I can no longer get Turbosound at dealer cost.
@@TheAngrySoundTech Thoman web site gives you good price I’ll pay 4 ip3000 for wedding also I have 8 nexo mon
Am I too late to the party? You didnt mention the Bose L1 Mod 2. I need a line array comparable to the Bose, as far as output. My L1 Mod 2 with the B2 is getting aged and I want to replace it .
I haven't owned any of the Bose systems so I can't comment much on them or give you an opinion as to what might be good to replace it with that performs similar or better. The only one I've heard in person is the small one and that was just background music at InfoComm. They had a bunch of them set up in the hallways playing music.
Get the Bose F1 system. They best.
Bose F1 Model 812 | Flexible Array Dual System Loudspeaker and Subwoofer www.amazon.com/dp/B013ILY8FA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_lP00Db4CP303Z
the Mackie Thumps used to be the fad, nobody wants them now
I actually ran sound for an acoustic festival recently and the stage I used had Mackie Thumps installed 🤣 It didn't sound the best and one of the floor monitors was already dead when I got there... Cheap junk.
Carvin audio column arrays are totally worth it. Check out my videos at Alpha Audio Productions here on RUclips. I absolutely love my columns!!!
I hate line array, all hype