@@TalesFromElsewhereGames thankyou! Yeah that was some feedback we got that the fortified wounds/soak took a moment for people to get used to but once they did it became second nature so hopefully that carries through with additional playtests!
Hmm... I dunno if I am sold on soak here. As far as I can see it doesn't have much of a purpose other than "making different armours feel different". But I can't imagine there not being a better armour choice between the 2 paths, once I know where the value ranges are. Doesn't help that difference between light and heavy armour also feels very gamey. So it adds very little yet also gives us a whole third phase to damage calculation (roll to hit -> roll damage -> calculate soak while checking wounds). Why not cut this and just give tanky things a bit more hitpoints? I do respect same-AC though - I did the same in my projects, and that was to great benefit.
@@flyfly376 hey thanks for the feed back. From a pure damage reduction standpoints I think Heavy armor would generally be seen as the better option statistically as it reducing damage possibly to 0 will likely always be more reliable. We have however taken that into account and there comes a cost of having reduced movement and also being less stealthy. With movement/positioning being crucial in fights, losing that speed can't be taken lightly. Curious how this comes off as gamey as armor reducing damage is not new, especially to varying degrees between light and heavy. Apologies if I misunderstood though. I do agree that it adds a bit of math, it's something we will keep a close eye on if it slows down combat or not. So far due to the numbers being single digits it hasn't affected us too much , but totally aware of this feedback Long ago in our old system we had tanky characters have more health to represent being tanky, but combined with the To Hit system, the feedback was you didn't actually feel tanky. Sure you had more health but your chance to get hit was the same and you still took the same amount of damage as everyone else. Yes you were tankier but because there was no barrier to damage, that thematic didn't really come across. Now that heavy armor feels like it's soaking up damage, we've had players really enjoy the feeling of being a tank. But of course, this is all in testing. Some of your concerns may shine through as we stress test more and more so we might need to pivot
@@FineGroundCryptids Thanks for responding. > Curious how this comes off as gamey as armor reducing damage is not new, especially to varying degrees between light and heavy. Gamey is more of a choice between light and heavy armour, not the soak itself (well, actually soak is also very gamey if you ask me, but that's a whole different conversation). In reality, people don't actually choose light armour over heavy armour. In history and reality the reason you would wear worse armour would be that you can't get better armour. There is no meaningful trade-off to going full-plate nor combat-armour, certainly not on the level of abstraction at which TTRPGs operate. (well, outside of social stealth at least - in some places it's too suspicious or forbidden to wear obvious body armour) Now you have mentioned stealth and movement - those are better for distinction if you ask me (though I find it that in practice movement penalties are very problematic, since in practice they once in a while forbid you from doing anything on your turn). Since you mentioned those distinctions I think it's even easier to remove the soak then! You won't even lose the heavy/light distinction. Your feedback on tankiness I can understand actually! It's something I struggled myself with. But you can make mechanics that are effectively personal exceptions for heavily armoured PCs rather than a whole 3rd phase for everyone. Especially if your goal is to resolve attacks faster.
@@flyfly376 ahh gotcha I see where you're coming from about the armor in this case, and yes you are right that armor came down to who could afford what. 100% agreeance here. I think the setting of 1900 and the fact you work for an agency can help alter the narrative or perspective here. The armor you wear should be seen as what your chara Tera preference is in using to fight cryptids. Do they like to wear the leather jacket (light armor) so they can be nimble or do they prefer to wear the Hidden Plating (Heavy). Also agree on the callout about the speed possibly being a negative impact on a turn, will keep a close eye on this in our tests. Will also keep your suggestions in mind in consideration for looking a world where Soak doesn't exist, and will fly this by some of our playtesters. Appreciate the convo and your interest 😊
Really interesting stuff! The interaction with the soak and wounds is something I still need to grokk in play, but looks pretty easy!
@@TalesFromElsewhereGames thankyou! Yeah that was some feedback we got that the fortified wounds/soak took a moment for people to get used to but once they did it became second nature so hopefully that carries through with additional playtests!
Hmm... I dunno if I am sold on soak here. As far as I can see it doesn't have much of a purpose other than "making different armours feel different". But I can't imagine there not being a better armour choice between the 2 paths, once I know where the value ranges are. Doesn't help that difference between light and heavy armour also feels very gamey. So it adds very little yet also gives us a whole third phase to damage calculation (roll to hit -> roll damage -> calculate soak while checking wounds). Why not cut this and just give tanky things a bit more hitpoints?
I do respect same-AC though - I did the same in my projects, and that was to great benefit.
@@flyfly376 hey thanks for the feed back. From a pure damage reduction standpoints I think Heavy armor would generally be seen as the better option statistically as it reducing damage possibly to 0 will likely always be more reliable. We have however taken that into account and there comes a cost of having reduced movement and also being less stealthy. With movement/positioning being crucial in fights, losing that speed can't be taken lightly. Curious how this comes off as gamey as armor reducing damage is not new, especially to varying degrees between light and heavy. Apologies if I misunderstood though.
I do agree that it adds a bit of math, it's something we will keep a close eye on if it slows down combat or not. So far due to the numbers being single digits it hasn't affected us too much , but totally aware of this feedback
Long ago in our old system we had tanky characters have more health to represent being tanky, but combined with the To Hit system, the feedback was you didn't actually feel tanky. Sure you had more health but your chance to get hit was the same and you still took the same amount of damage as everyone else. Yes you were tankier but because there was no barrier to damage, that thematic didn't really come across. Now that heavy armor feels like it's soaking up damage, we've had players really enjoy the feeling of being a tank.
But of course, this is all in testing. Some of your concerns may shine through as we stress test more and more so we might need to pivot
@@FineGroundCryptids Thanks for responding.
> Curious how this comes off as gamey as armor reducing damage is not new, especially to varying degrees between light and heavy.
Gamey is more of a choice between light and heavy armour, not the soak itself (well, actually soak is also very gamey if you ask me, but that's a whole different conversation). In reality, people don't actually choose light armour over heavy armour. In history and reality the reason you would wear worse armour would be that you can't get better armour. There is no meaningful trade-off to going full-plate nor combat-armour, certainly not on the level of abstraction at which TTRPGs operate.
(well, outside of social stealth at least - in some places it's too suspicious or forbidden to wear obvious body armour)
Now you have mentioned stealth and movement - those are better for distinction if you ask me (though I find it that in practice movement penalties are very problematic, since in practice they once in a while forbid you from doing anything on your turn). Since you mentioned those distinctions I think it's even easier to remove the soak then! You won't even lose the heavy/light distinction.
Your feedback on tankiness I can understand actually! It's something I struggled myself with. But you can make mechanics that are effectively personal exceptions for heavily armoured PCs rather than a whole 3rd phase for everyone. Especially if your goal is to resolve attacks faster.
@@flyfly376 ahh gotcha I see where you're coming from about the armor in this case, and yes you are right that armor came down to who could afford what. 100% agreeance here.
I think the setting of 1900 and the fact you work for an agency can help alter the narrative or perspective here. The armor you wear should be seen as what your chara Tera preference is in using to fight cryptids. Do they like to wear the leather jacket (light armor) so they can be nimble or do they prefer to wear the Hidden Plating (Heavy).
Also agree on the callout about the speed possibly being a negative impact on a turn, will keep a close eye on this in our tests. Will also keep your suggestions in mind in consideration for looking a world where Soak doesn't exist, and will fly this by some of our playtesters.
Appreciate the convo and your interest 😊