In dnd you resolve the cost of the spell slot by making them into scrolls. Also in dnd dungeoncrawl these spells are immediately useful for exploration. A better solution is that instead of trying to redesign a spell that does stuff you still aren't going to use that much, put areas into a dungeon that is easily accessible if you have these spells and difficult if you do not. These extra areas are not mandatory to a campaign, but they provide extra loot or monsters or lore about the world. Then players can come back to them later if they want to. A lot of spells in dnd are intended for dungeon crawling and require a similar playstyle to a dungeoncrawl. Lock and key is a good allegory and very fitting for a game about resource management. And if you want a more freeform design then it is more elegant to make it freeform from the start. Instead of a list of specific effects outline the degree of effect at each level and leave it up to players and gms to decide the details.
So correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Spell Scroll creating in 5e strictly an optional rule in addition it costs gold and in-game time, while also requiring you to have the spell prepared. This does make it a bit less niche sure, but doesn't help those that can't change out their spells. And if my memory serves it being an optional rule in another book, that makes it a band-aid fix that not everyone is aware of. Perhaps I am forgetting a rule though, I did a quick google search but came up short. Dungeon-crawling settings I 100% agree they are more useful and that is where the niche thrives, but newer editions aren't just dungeon-crawling. They're designed for different types and grander adventures. Many people people don't play it just going through a dungeon, clearing rooms and puzzles and traps, so a solution of just sprinkling in a metroidvania sort of option is a great solution for those that run those types of games, but it does not help those that do other sorts. As for more free-form rules, for a rules-lite game I am 100% in agreeance to that. But Ethereal isn't designed to be rules-lite, it's made to have parameters so an option list makes it very clear how the spell can or cannot be used
@@FineGroundCryptidsCreating Spell scrolls is a part of the game that players can do - they often just don’t for various reasons. Many optimizers and strategic players never miss this trick. However, it should be noted that the Order of Scribes Wizard can make extensive use of scrolls and some spells that are utility like Water Breathing are rituals so they are not using spells slots. Also, a player can find, purchase or Artificers can craft Spellwrought tattoos that operate like scrolls but no hands for lower level spells.
i like the format of presenting a problem in DnD and showing your solution to it. also looking forward to hearing more about the game's rules in general, maybe a quick primer video?
@@shieldgenerator7 thank-you! And love the way you think, it's on the schedule for early in the new year. We have been playtesting on the backend after a few major mechanic overhauls and just wanted those a bit more cemented, but the hope is to start doing rules videos very soon!
Thanks for the video, it's been very interesting even if i didn't like the solution. I mean, it's a good one, it's just my taste about magic that doesn't align with it.
While I think that niche spells are indeed wasted space in both the caster's spellbook and the game book, I also do not think that stacking them up carelessly into some kind of Swiss knife magic is the correct way to go for all of them. Take for example that effect that allows you to breathe underwater, speak underwater, swim and move freely underwater... That's not just a water-based spell, that's a polymorph spell that turns you into an aquatic creature. It modifies you, not the water, so it should go into the list of effects of a water-related polymorph spell instead. Feather fall, on the other end, could go into either some kind of control wind spell or some kind of telekinesis or levitation spell as one of the things you could do while the spell is active. It could go in all of them, actually, since you could achieve the same result in several different ways. Personally, I prefer to remove completely useless spells and turn the remaining niche spells into rituals or specific magic items, depending on the circumstances of each one specifically. It is not mandatory that spells should do whatever magical items do and vice versa. It also helps with classes such as alchemist and artificer.
Hey thanks for the feedback. I think in this system it's not about just 'carelessly' adding spells. It's important to stick to a thematic, you wouldn't just throw in any niche spell to make it work and certainly would need to cut some out. Like Knock would not work. But the spells here are all water based. I see where you're coming from about the grouping some of this as a polymorph spell. I believe that comes more from the perspective of how the spell functions. I can see that working as a polymorph spell, but I also think thematically tying it as part of being a master of water also makes sense thematically based on how the player flavours it. As for the rest turning into rituals or items, in those cases I would just axe them. Turning it into an item is the same as just making it a key and handing it to the player. Even the smallest amount of agency of having something like 'water breathing' and giving the player any freedom of choice to use it goes out the window as soon as the player is handed an item that lets them breathe under water, that basically assures the player 'well there's a water level coming up'. At least as a spell, you feel a tad clever having it ready and 'out-thinking' the GM.
@FineGroundCryptids About giving the players "a key", isn't even worse to give them a whole bundle of them, only thematically sorted? Instead of having to deal with just one problem-skipping spell, you would have to think about all the others too. That's what I intended by saying "carelessly". In the example in the video, for the cost of a single learned spell, you gave the players a way to bypass almost any trouble that water can give to the characters. That's a lot of keys for a very little investment in resources. The only thing the caster has to do is selecting the level of the slot to use. The "theme" should not be this broad and generic. To make a spell more interesting, but not going overboard with too many different effects, it may be sufficient to make it less specific. For example, having an "aquakinesis" spell that allows the caster to move, shape, or manipulate water as long as he concentrates would give a player a spell that is very versatile, but not as much as to solve troubles completely. It could be a tool, it could be a weapon, it could be a defense, and so on, but it would still require the presence of enough water and some level of concentration on the part of the caster. And there will still be a lot of problems it could not help to solve. Having the players to find some magical trinket to overcome a specific endeavor may not actually be like giving them a key. They have to find it, not just being given it. This is usually one of the best ways to create side quests or switch the main quest to a different place to use some otherwise unrelated adventures you had in mind. Since I mostly use the sandbox method as a DM, this escamotage has served me quite well in the past. And it is also a quite common narrative tool in any kind of story: the protagonist has to find an object to be able to proceed.
I am happy you enjoyed making your game but your game of “Etherial” is not D&D so it is loosing the plot by 7:30 to turn the video about this small issue. (Mind you I have played MANY MANY RPGs so no issue with other games) I do want to point out that some DMs will aim issues at the players but many more will not. It is common to let the players getting trouble and let them find their way out. If the plot has them going say into Atlantis typically the players will work that out and get what they need in game. It is the niche events like sudden falling that cause low use support spells to be hanging around spell lists. Often a player or two will use scrolls or magic items (Like the feather token in this case event) as a backup plan just in case. This is not a major issue and there are solutions within the D&D game. (Other games of course don’t use Vancian Magic and often have other options that can be used so I totally get your desire to talk about your game. I know I said that before but I want you to understand it is cool this is friendly critique.)
Hey thanks for the reply! You are right, Ethereal is not D&D. The connection trying to be made here is trying to find common ground with a system that people are more familiar with and linking it back to how we handle something like water breathing in our system. We love D&D, this was just an area that our dev team all had a pain point with so wanted to tackle in a different way. I agree there are solutions within D&D, and also agree its not a major issue, but I personally believe the solutions provided aren't the most reliable as they require work and forethought from the GM & players such as the GM needing to hand out these particular items. I think it also needs to be considered how bloated a spell list becomes when there are a bunch of niche spells that don't often come up. For veteran players, its fine, they have a similar mindset where they know they can eventually prod the DM to buy an item or make it into a scroll. New players don't. They need to read through 100's of spells and try to find the value, and with every niche spell, that is 1 more spell to weigh against other options. I really appreciate the feedback, in future videos I will be more mindful of how we're doing the comparison to other systems.
Good design. This makes it feel more like Water Bending than having a lvl 1 spell in D&D.
Thanks! And as you level it will feel like you become more competent with that spell as you can upcast it to higher levels, and more frequently.
In dnd you resolve the cost of the spell slot by making them into scrolls.
Also in dnd dungeoncrawl these spells are immediately useful for exploration.
A better solution is that instead of trying to redesign a spell that does stuff you still aren't going to use that much, put areas into a dungeon that is easily accessible if you have these spells and difficult if you do not. These extra areas are not mandatory to a campaign, but they provide extra loot or monsters or lore about the world.
Then players can come back to them later if they want to.
A lot of spells in dnd are intended for dungeon crawling and require a similar playstyle to a dungeoncrawl. Lock and key is a good allegory and very fitting for a game about resource management.
And if you want a more freeform design then it is more elegant to make it freeform from the start. Instead of a list of specific effects outline the degree of effect at each level and leave it up to players and gms to decide the details.
So correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Spell Scroll creating in 5e strictly an optional rule in addition it costs gold and in-game time, while also requiring you to have the spell prepared. This does make it a bit less niche sure, but doesn't help those that can't change out their spells. And if my memory serves it being an optional rule in another book, that makes it a band-aid fix that not everyone is aware of. Perhaps I am forgetting a rule though, I did a quick google search but came up short.
Dungeon-crawling settings I 100% agree they are more useful and that is where the niche thrives, but newer editions aren't just dungeon-crawling. They're designed for different types and grander adventures. Many people people don't play it just going through a dungeon, clearing rooms and puzzles and traps, so a solution of just sprinkling in a metroidvania sort of option is a great solution for those that run those types of games, but it does not help those that do other sorts.
As for more free-form rules, for a rules-lite game I am 100% in agreeance to that. But Ethereal isn't designed to be rules-lite, it's made to have parameters so an option list makes it very clear how the spell can or cannot be used
@@FineGroundCryptidsCreating Spell scrolls is a part of the game that players can do - they often just don’t for various reasons. Many optimizers and strategic players never miss this trick.
However, it should be noted that the Order of Scribes Wizard can make extensive use of scrolls and some spells that are utility like Water Breathing are rituals so they are not using spells slots.
Also, a player can find, purchase or Artificers can craft Spellwrought tattoos that operate like scrolls but no hands for lower level spells.
Very good points about that cost of having utility and combat spells being in competition of each other.
Thanks Peter!
I once designed a pretty similar system. I think it's great.
i like the format of presenting a problem in DnD and showing your solution to it. also looking forward to hearing more about the game's rules in general, maybe a quick primer video?
@@shieldgenerator7 thank-you! And love the way you think, it's on the schedule for early in the new year. We have been playtesting on the backend after a few major mechanic overhauls and just wanted those a bit more cemented, but the hope is to start doing rules videos very soon!
@@FineGroundCryptids sounds good, looking forward to it!
This is how DC 20 does spells.
Oh I'm not familiar with DC20 very heavily, I'll look into it!
Thanks for the video, it's been very interesting even if i didn't like the solution.
I mean, it's a good one, it's just my taste about magic that doesn't align with it.
Totally makes sense, I can see it not being for everyone :) Thanks for the support!
While I think that niche spells are indeed wasted space in both the caster's spellbook and the game book, I also do not think that stacking them up carelessly into some kind of Swiss knife magic is the correct way to go for all of them.
Take for example that effect that allows you to breathe underwater, speak underwater, swim and move freely underwater... That's not just a water-based spell, that's a polymorph spell that turns you into an aquatic creature. It modifies you, not the water, so it should go into the list of effects of a water-related polymorph spell instead.
Feather fall, on the other end, could go into either some kind of control wind spell or some kind of telekinesis or levitation spell as one of the things you could do while the spell is active. It could go in all of them, actually, since you could achieve the same result in several different ways.
Personally, I prefer to remove completely useless spells and turn the remaining niche spells into rituals or specific magic items, depending on the circumstances of each one specifically. It is not mandatory that spells should do whatever magical items do and vice versa. It also helps with classes such as alchemist and artificer.
Hey thanks for the feedback. I think in this system it's not about just 'carelessly' adding spells. It's important to stick to a thematic, you wouldn't just throw in any niche spell to make it work and certainly would need to cut some out. Like Knock would not work. But the spells here are all water based.
I see where you're coming from about the grouping some of this as a polymorph spell. I believe that comes more from the perspective of how the spell functions. I can see that working as a polymorph spell, but I also think thematically tying it as part of being a master of water also makes sense thematically based on how the player flavours it.
As for the rest turning into rituals or items, in those cases I would just axe them. Turning it into an item is the same as just making it a key and handing it to the player. Even the smallest amount of agency of having something like 'water breathing' and giving the player any freedom of choice to use it goes out the window as soon as the player is handed an item that lets them breathe under water, that basically assures the player 'well there's a water level coming up'. At least as a spell, you feel a tad clever having it ready and 'out-thinking' the GM.
@FineGroundCryptids About giving the players "a key", isn't even worse to give them a whole bundle of them, only thematically sorted? Instead of having to deal with just one problem-skipping spell, you would have to think about all the others too.
That's what I intended by saying "carelessly". In the example in the video, for the cost of a single learned spell, you gave the players a way to bypass almost any trouble that water can give to the characters. That's a lot of keys for a very little investment in resources.
The only thing the caster has to do is selecting the level of the slot to use. The "theme" should not be this broad and generic.
To make a spell more interesting, but not going overboard with too many different effects, it may be sufficient to make it less specific.
For example, having an "aquakinesis" spell that allows the caster to move, shape, or manipulate water as long as he concentrates would give a player a spell that is very versatile, but not as much as to solve troubles completely.
It could be a tool, it could be a weapon, it could be a defense, and so on, but it would still require the presence of enough water and some level of concentration on the part of the caster. And there will still be a lot of problems it could not help to solve.
Having the players to find some magical trinket to overcome a specific endeavor may not actually be like giving them a key. They have to find it, not just being given it. This is usually one of the best ways to create side quests or switch the main quest to a different place to use some otherwise unrelated adventures you had in mind.
Since I mostly use the sandbox method as a DM, this escamotage has served me quite well in the past. And it is also a quite common narrative tool in any kind of story: the protagonist has to find an object to be able to proceed.
I am happy you enjoyed making your game but your game of “Etherial” is not D&D so it is loosing the plot by 7:30 to turn the video about this small issue. (Mind you I have played MANY MANY RPGs so no issue with other games)
I do want to point out that some DMs will aim issues at the players but many more will not. It is common to let the players getting trouble and let them find their way out. If the plot has them going say into Atlantis typically the players will work that out and get what they need in game. It is the niche events like sudden falling that cause low use support spells to be hanging around spell lists. Often a player or two will use scrolls or magic items (Like the feather token in this case event) as a backup plan just in case. This is not a major issue and there are solutions within the D&D game.
(Other games of course don’t use Vancian Magic and often have other options that can be used so I totally get your desire to talk about your game. I know I said that before but I want you to understand it is cool this is friendly critique.)
Hey thanks for the reply! You are right, Ethereal is not D&D. The connection trying to be made here is trying to find common ground with a system that people are more familiar with and linking it back to how we handle something like water breathing in our system. We love D&D, this was just an area that our dev team all had a pain point with so wanted to tackle in a different way.
I agree there are solutions within D&D, and also agree its not a major issue, but I personally believe the solutions provided aren't the most reliable as they require work and forethought from the GM & players such as the GM needing to hand out these particular items.
I think it also needs to be considered how bloated a spell list becomes when there are a bunch of niche spells that don't often come up. For veteran players, its fine, they have a similar mindset where they know they can eventually prod the DM to buy an item or make it into a scroll. New players don't. They need to read through 100's of spells and try to find the value, and with every niche spell, that is 1 more spell to weigh against other options.
I really appreciate the feedback, in future videos I will be more mindful of how we're doing the comparison to other systems.
Anything derived from d&d is d&d, unless you believe 5e d&d isn't d&d since it's completely unrelated to 1e d&d...
@@armorclasshero2103 i disagree, if you have to explain hours worth of rule changes, its no longer D&D, but a game inspired by D&D
@@shieldgenerator7 you just described every single new edition of d&d