Runs on 3 Cylinders...ONCE A DAY? (Ford Explorer V6)
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- Опубликовано: 12 апр 2024
- Another CRAZY Auction vehicle...
2017 Ford Explorer V6, that randomly shuts off the Bank 1 cylinders...but only ONCE A DAY?!
This is probably why it ended up at the Auction to begin with!!
The owner tells me that some days it drives just fine, while other days it will randomly misfire on Cylinders 1, 2, and 3 while under load, but not every time.
Of course, it's refusing to act up for me, as expected.
A MONTH later, I get a call to come re-diagnose the Possessed Explorer as it just QUIT RUNNING on the new owner. Crank NO-START! HMMMM...
PHAD PRESSURE TRANSDUCER:
www.pinehollowdiagnostics.com/...
IVAN'S PICO WAVEFORMS:
drive.google.com/drive/folder...
THINKTOOL PROS:
www.amazon.com/dp/B08XXWHQVJ?...
Enjoy!
Ivan 
Авто/Мото
So did they pull the timing cover off the engine when they removed it? Did you get to find out if the chain was three teeth off after all? A great vid but sort of ends without outcome?
Engine was returned as a core. Mechanic said it made really bad sounds like a failed tensioner jumping teeth when he turned it over by hand 😅
That explains it all - chain stretched too far, throwing the timing off.@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
I also felt it was a poor ending with no real resolution. Like I wasted my time watching. If these keep ending like this it would make me not want to watch future videos. I watch for an answer to be found.
@@GNX157 Ivan does not own the vehicle and was diagnosing. Final decision was made by the dealer to replace the engine.
@@maxium4x4 I’m quite aware of how it all works. Ivan however makes the decision on what videos to post, and what not to, and I’m saying, if these are how the videos keep going down, I’ll be less inclined to watch, clear?
To be honest I like the sound of this dealer. They seemed willing to fix it before AND after the sale.
well making 10 - 12 grand off it, I guess they should.
Yes they want to keep their good reputation and will not sell a vehicle without a warranty 🙂
Well that.. and it's the law. So yeah
@@calhollinot everywhere. Some states allow AS IS, NO WARRANTY sales from dealers.
What law is t h at?
The absolute best diagnostic channel on the interwebs! You are a great teacher, Ivan. Thanks for doing your videos.
Thanks James, we all learn something new every day! 🙂
"Cars can be weird", Ivan PHAD. Sounds like a T-shirt to me 👍
At least that used car dealer seems to be honest? Most used car dealers near me would probably just clear the CEL and sell it.
A used car dealer (that doesn't exist anymore) in State College did that to me. Fortunately it was just a rusted fuel filler neck, but still a shady move 😬
On old junkers.. sure. but when you're selling for "new car" prices. You have to do more
I work at a dealership & we've had 2 of these Explorers come in for water pumps & found the woodruff keys half sheared causing timing codes
yep. Mine failed on my Lincoln MKX. Never a steady check engine light. Started just randomly misfiring, then back to normal. And one day woodruff key just gave out. Bad compression on 4 cylinders after :(
@@Innov8vMikeDid the piston hit the valves?
@@gregjohnson2073 sadly so
Who would have thought 30 years ago that replacing an engine would have been easier and less expensive than a timing job.
Probably not cheaper but it's a better bet that it wont come back for a second warranty repair that the dealer would have to pay for.
Sounds like it wasn't taken care of anyways. Shouldn't really have timing issues at 100k miles on these engines unless you ignore the oil.
The damage to valves, pistons, etc, can be catastrophic when an engine jumps time. This one still sounded good when turning over, but without a visual inspection, who knows what kind of carnage was beneath the covers?
Try a breaker bar on the crank pulley. Work the crank back and fourth. Usually you can feel and hear the slop in the chain.
Unless the old engine somehow ends up on 'I Do Cars', I guess we'll never know for sure...
The engine people took it as a core.. and I bet they will just do a timing job on it and resell it again.... But we do "know for sure": that compression waveform is definitive. He just didn't show a 'known good' so people understand the difference; but it was very obviously wrong.
I agree that the waveform evidence is compelling (notably the identical waveform on both banks - the whole valvetrain is offset by the same amount) - seeing a teardown would have made for a satisfying end to the video, but wasn't going to happen in the context of economical diagnosis and repair.
I love an Ivan mystery in the morning!
Morning in North Korea?
Ivan, another great video. Thanks for always giving closure to these case studies. So many similar videos I’ve watched from other channels leave you wondering how the story ends. Not that I feel like I’m owed that but it’s frustrating. You and Eric O are gracious enough to give your viewers the “Paul Harvey - Rest of the Story” and I for one appreciate it. Thanks!
If someone was not changing oil properly before, it could easily lead to both slow VVT solenoid and failed chain tensioner which caused chain to jump.
Hyndai Getz 1.4 2008 year, I replaced the spark plugs, wires, ignition coil with new ones and still the revolutions fluctuated at idle. There was a misfire in the fourth cylinder. When it was warm, everything was perfect. I took the ECU off the car. I washed all the pins. I soldered the pins of the ECU that lead to the two ignition coils with tin and sprayed before installing With the WÜRTH contact spray, all the pins are in the connector and on the ECU as well. The result is good. When starting from cold, the revolutions are stable at 1200 minutes and then slowly drop. There are no more engine skips or error codes at all. It took me 5 hours to do this work. The car's ECU was under the left armature. and it was very difficult to get it from there.
what does have to do with repair what is a left armature
Did they pull the old engines timing cover off to see how far out it was? You did your usual great job, that dealer really cares about the customer after the sale!
Maybe when the ecu sees a correlation issue between the crank and cam sensors it defaults to only using the crank sensor, which would explain the wasted spark.
If that is the case it's pretty poor not to throw some kind of error code.
Wow that’s an amazing deduction. I won’t forget that
Interesting. What would they do about injector timing?
@@rmr5740 I converted my classic bug to use a modern fuel injection setup.
It has a trigger wheel but no cam sensor, so I set the injectors to run as a batched pair matching the wasted spark events.
I'd imagine the same would happen in this case.
Might also explain why the plugs where soaked in fuel.
Great video Ivan, nice to follow along with your thought process. So many vehicles are having timing issues these days. A small variation in timing will set fault codes to a otherwise smooth running engine.
When you were describing the wave form and said both cams were identical ,crank gear timing was what I was thinking also,,,see we learn from watching this channel !!! Great diag Ivan
Didn’t change the oil or used cheap or poor quality oil❤great video Ivan!!!!😊
Well THAT escalated quickly.
Great video Ivan. The 3.3/3.5/3.7 NA Cyclone engines have been very reliable and used in many applications since 2007. Failure at 107,000mi is not common. Previous usage/maintenance history would be interesting. Good on the dealer to make things right for the customer.
I blame the alien warp drive causing the crank no start after Ivan & the Explorer get abducted. Lovin the video's extra length of playtime.
14:15 "Open the garage door, Hal." "I'm afraid I can't do that, Ivan."
I noticed that about the Taurus, visibility is even worse than Explorer with skinny windows and huge slanted A pillars.
I think the testing and inspection was spot on here. But I would love to have seen a cam crank correlation on this vehicle next to a know good. Enjoying the videos Ivan, keep up the good work and ignore the negative comments.
Hi Ivan, I'm with you about the cam timing. the chain is very long and it is easy to stretch enough to cause it to jump time. the spark is most likely driven off the crank position.
Rich
Grabbin a cam-crank with the pressure transducer would have been insightful, I’m sure. The way you dig and think, Ivan, I feel we are a lot alike in this area my man. It’s hard to “give up” so to speak. But I’m pretty sure in this case, cam-crank, and if necessary, grabbing a known good off IATN or the pico library would have taken you where you wanted to go.✌️🤜
Look at the cam , solenoids, if they are sludged up , they will cause a stalling or rough idle . I have done a lot of the 3.5l timing chains and water pumps , the cam sprockets will come apart or become stuck due to sludge or debris also ...
Phenomenal video. I didn’t know if it had one chain or two so I was guessing one stretched rather than jumped teeth
It would be nice to have the original engine to look at. To look at the timing location. I think you are correct on the diagnose, I think it was out of time.
Wow so many questions left me hanging but love ya vids thanks
Worked on a Turbo Buick with the same symptoms. Both check/ purge valves in the PCV system were stuck wide open and it would intermittently foul the sparkplugs. It was only noticeable to the owner while getting on the highway. It was fairly repeatable by the time I saw it, but was driven like that for a year.
That was very interesting. I'm surprised that there isn't a timing mark or visible keyway on the crank so one could check crank/valve timing without removing the front engine covers...just the front valve cover. Still...excellent diagnosis. You are a wizard with those scopes, Eric. The first time I saw you do an electrical load relative compression test...blew my mind.
The news somewhere had a guy with a Subaru the dealer threw parts at for years, and it never started right, or reliably. A TV station got involved, and they finally bought it back.
Right away I thought, they are NOT diagnosing it, Ivan could have FIXED it.
Just saw that. Sounds like it had a parasitic draw killing the battery
@@mph5896 Yes, Ivan woulda NAILED it. Or Eric O too.
I also thought Ivan could have easily solved that problem.
Ivan, love your videos but not enough to be forced to watch a 10 min unrelated commercial that can't be stopped!
10 minute forced commercial?? No way 😂
It's almost like you don't understand how RUclips works!!
Thank you PHAD
Good diagnostic method. Win some lose some on the outcome. But good instructions on scope use and diagnostics, very useful to techs wishing to expand their knowlege base.
These 3.5 chains are very prone to stretch because of the length , replaced a few.
It was a good move economically to replace rather than repair. I suspect the car will rust apart before any engine issues occur. Thanks for the video. It's something to learn and remember.
Thanks for another episode!
Thank you for making this video.
Someone was there before you. Water pump failed and they installed new pump and chain. Messed up the timing chain and then traded it in. Replace the timing chain and pump etc. Do the job right. However since it is an interference engine did this cause valve piston strikes. Yep might have to replace the engine. Good luck as replacement engines are hard to come by due to EV Government push.
Mechanic who did the engine swap said there were no signs of the timing cover ever being removed 👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Then you have timing failure. Time for water pump replacement. Hope that the bank two did not stretch or damage the valves. That happen to an engine 3.5 duratec that was replace with me and a friend. You can diagnose as much as you want. you are still replacing or repairing that engine. Bank 1 (against firewall) failed. ruclips.net/video/mIpobKIA_RI/видео.html
@@MACTFordEdge Did you not watch to the end. lol.. They replaced the engine.. I bet they could have just done a timing job and been fine, because they didn't completely loose timing, it just jumped a few teeth; meaning, I don't think it would have contacted the valves. So they took that engine in as a core-- and I bet they fixed it and resold it again. (or will)
@@calholli It was a catastrophic failure. Valves and pistons did hit. It was repaired by replacing the engine by me and a friend for a single mom with kids and cost her nothing.
I have a 2014 Explorer Sport (3.5 ecoboost) that threw P0021, P052C, P052A, P0018 and P0016. Engine still ran pretty good, but obviously had a problem. Front cover came off, and the chain had skipped some teeth. Full timing job. Engine now runs very smooth.
Long, long time ago ... I was involved with the software for engine controls. One of the key things was to fire spark and fuel as soon as possible after the engine starts to crank. With the Ford 36 minus 1 crank position wheel it could take 2 revolutions before crank and cam were synchronized (this is BEFORE they added independent cam timing). The teeth are spaced at 10°, but you have to "detect" the "missing tooth" before you can do anything. Even then you can only do "waste spark" until you sync with the cam sensor.
Careful Ivan. If someone on the local board sees this video they might take your "used car sales" pitch seriously. :) :) :) 🤣
Excellent thought process on a difficult problem! Swapping the engine seems like the simplest solution - attempting to repair the faulty engine would be costly and an absolute gamble on possible other problems. I would have loved to see the timing cover off, but that's just curiosity and the time spent on that, wouldn't serve any purpose.
Hi Ivan, I enjoy thinking through the diagnostics with you. If you had to purchase another scan tool today, would you stick with the Thinktool or lean towards a different brand? Thanks for the videos.
Thanks Ivan!
The scope is a must for these cars, but how many dealers use one in their shops to find the problem instead of just remove and replace until the parts cannon in empty
My old 2010 RAV4 2.5 exhibited some similar problems twice. We bought it knowing that it would need the intake cam phaser replaced eventually. What this one did was a severe shudder that lasted about 30 seconds, both times on an up hill grade. Neither incident caused a MIL. Power was slightly reduced for the rest of the drive cycle. When I eventually replaced both cam phasers, and the complete timing set (40k after the second incident) what I found was a lot of oil coking due to non synthetic oil usage by the previous original owner. When I replaced the timing set it was for a cam/crank correlation code. What I suspect caused the shudder was a loss of cam phasing control due to oil restrictions. I believe the fault shut the VVTi off but didn't set a code.
I had a 16 Explorer with the 3.7 with vvt codes causing a bank to misfire. Metal got up into the cam cap at the head and intermittently caused the issue. It looked like a very small curved piece of oil pickup tube piece of steel. Got a used engine and that was that.
I bought a 16 Explorer not long ago with no issues, a month goes by. Crank, but no start happen without no warning. She drove it home with no issues and the next morning it wouldn't start. I had thought it was a bad battery and wasn't. Got it towed to a local shop, they didn't know what the issue was so they said they will change just the spark plugs first... Got the car back... I still don't believe spark plugs was the caused...
Come on Ivan my itch has not been scratched. The hardest part about this trade is sometimes we don’t get clarity and closure
I had one of those little Chevy cars that would start and barely pull off. Unplugged the VVT solenoid and it ran good! Except for the check engine light. I just left it unplugged and he hauled ass.
Those cars isn't even worth fixing! If they didn't install a new water pump, it's gone happen again soon!
All used engines have low miles 😳 I remember a local performance shop owner back around 1991 he looked like Steven Seagal. This dude looked 7 foot tall. An old lady brought in a GM FWD car to his shop. He said I'm sorry lady, we don't work on pure junk! That's what we have today, pure junk.
As it turned out, he never had to work on front wheel drives. A couple of years later, he dropped dead one Saturday chopping firewood. I remember him because he drove a mint black 70s Chevy Nova with a SB 400. Now that was a car worth having.
And worked on it more than anything else😂
That hammer rash on your left thumb isn't going away anytime soon, is it? 👍🤣
Great diag.
That will need to actually "grow out." It will be a long time for that to happen.
Took my thumb nail the best part of a year to grow all the way back.
Interesting case study, the rc test where the ignition fires every 3 'humps' is something i have seen before on other v6 cars with cop ignition, some sort of startup strategy perhaps? Thinking about this case, maybe a cam-crank capture might have given some more data, there are good captures available. Another idea is to perhaps use a 2nd transducer on the intake to monitor valve movements. Thank you Ivan for your efforts, i always appreciate your videos.
Do you use anything special to clean the green crusties from out of the electrical sockets? What's you method?
I have customers who buy fords I told them not to buy in the first place. Then they cry to me cause they still owe 18k on a vehicle that needs 10 k to only be worth 3 k or scrap at the end of the day.
@cjrock4096 Yeah, government regulations are hurting a lot too, but I'd also say there's a mindset that they want to save as much money as possible, so they decide to cut corners and make things super cheap-quality just for that reason alone. I'd love to see a modern push rod single overhead cam design again. Those engines were tried and true, but unfortunately like you said, EPA regs and whatnot.
I am wanting to say those Ecoboost engines are notorious for stretched timing chains.
@cjrock4096 Bingo!
Yeah German cars are much better 😂
Dumb comment
Same question - Did they pull the front timing cover off? Nice to verify it jumping time was the issue! You can't leave us in such suspense!
Hello state college. I maybe there in august for the amazing Billy strings concert!
Part 2, the odd delayed start waveform - first thought is that it's not reading the cam sensor, or it's too out of sync with the crank to use, so it's relying on the crank and firing every rotation as a fallback system?
This sounds like a good used car dealership that cares about selling cars that have no issues.
I've cared for several of these units with high miles/high hours in police service with no engine issues. They got regular service though.
They actually didn't require much at all for repairs in general. They will need a wheel bearing or two usually however...
Don’t the Police order their vehicles with special engines only they can order?
Pity that there was no definitive answer after installing new engine.
Could have checked with the scope on the new engine.
However you may have to return back at some point, hopefully not.
Could the crankshaft sensor have been put in the mix? When I saw three humps between spark signals, I was sure that the bank 1 secondary chain had broken, but that's why we never assume off 1 data set.
All that and then...waa waa, installed new engine. 😅
It seemed like just a timing thing.
Could you scope the Crank position signal against the cam position signal?
Its hard to believe that it's cheaper to change a engine than it is to change a timming chain. Great diagnosis.
It's the safe and most effective repair. Remember, almost guaranteed this is a zero clearance engine. When valves/pistons get out of time, very bad things can happen.
This is interesting. Spark should occur at 2 to 4 degrees. Not 13 or more. Good call Ivan. It looks like the wave forms weren't lying. That main chain must have jumped a few teeth. And I'm willing to bet that the original complaint was a flopping timing chain. It all makes sense.
I never would have guessed that you are a country music fan. I expected techno dance music.
Could all of this started from prior oner not changing oil ? With all the modern technology on these new automotive engines do they require oil pressure before starting or spark release to start ? Dirty oil could have caused trimming chain to jump from the tensioners worn out ?
Good morning!
These are also known for having cam phaser issues. The pin on the back side of the phaser that's supposed to lock it wears.
usually the phasers will make a rattle on a cold start
@@arnoldm889 Yes. Usually. But not always.
Ivan, I would have sure liked to have known how far out of time that engine was when you had your instruments hooked up. I am surprised the dealer repaired the car for the customer instead of telling them to pound sand. In that last video of that training session you attended, during the dinner scene, I could have sworn I saw Brandon Steckler sitting next to you. He's big into pressure wave forms. So, I am going to call you Brandon Steckler, Jr. from now on....GREAT VIDEO!
Well, they offer a warranty. If it's within the warranty window (could be 3 months, 3200 miles or something, or a shorter 1 month 600 miles, I don't know...) they HAVE to fix it or it's an easy easy lawsuit.
Some states allow "as is, no warranty" sales from dealers, but this car didn't sound "as is" because Ivan said it had a warranty.
@@volvo09 Apparently I missed that during the video. My state is one that allows "as is; no warranty." Thanks for pointing that out.
Question, if you have a break in the wiring going to a fuel injector, with a check engine light and running rough. Will that damage the non working cylinders or does it still get lubricated ? Would you drive it to the dealership for harness replacement ?
I couldn't help but wonder if a bad crank sensor was giving bad data to the PCM...or maybe a reluctor wheel had somehow gone out of sync
I wonder what mode 6 VVT monitor numbers looked like before and after.
How many hours did you spend on that vehicle?
Thanks for the info you give out😂😂😂
My friends dad. A mechanic would say things like just don’t drive on that hill. 😂
Had a 6.6L Chevrolet with an intermittent crank no start. Scan tool data said 30 degrees of variance between actual and desired cam position. Turns out it spit out a thrust bearing and the crank was moving to far from the sensor
Fords are very popular in my area having 2 Ford plants within 25 miles of our city seems that’s what everyone drives 😂 I’ve seen on the 3.5 and older 3.7 the tensioners fail and skip time. Wonder if the waterpump had been replaced before that lot got the vehicle. Seen a lot of shady water pump replacements too!
With these I always start with clearing codes, keep alive memory and start from scratch. I'm pretty sure it's direct injected. And has variable timing. And turbocharged there's a laundry list of preliminary checks. Including the basics like oil level and condition.
I don't think this was EcoBoost.
@@kevin9c1 Yeah never really gets addressed. Just stating that if it was there are more reasons that you could get intermittent misfires.
Probably time for that infamous water pump anyway.
Always amazed me how the old mod V8 and the 3.8 and 4.2 V6 water pumps would last the life of the engine but as soon as Ford throws one behind the timing cover requiring massive amounts of labor to get at and it fails prematurely.
Side note-I do a lot of Ford work and every one I've seen with a stetched timing chain/broken tensioner seems to throw the timing off on that bank first.
I wonder was it the Dreaded P0420 code that made the dealer change the cat. I am going thru the same issue with my tucson.
So how did we get from "timing is off" to replacing the whole engine? Is it actually cheaper to just swap the whole unit on these Fords rather than pull the timing cover?
31:56 He, why you don't do cam crack correlation?
If the intake cam was off far enough, it's possible the engine had almost zero intake vacuum, preventing the injected fuel from being drawn into the cylinders properly. I think that combined with the slightly over-advanced spark explains why the engine wasn't even attempting to start.
Ivan on you final explanation u said , that each tooth on the crank gear is 13 degrees.
And it looks like was advanced 39 degrees, so the chain jumped 3 teeth?
Yup
Your pressure peak in cylinder is not a good reference to TDC with a timing issues. Using CKP with the Ignition strike is. Either way the engine covers need to come off. I feel bad for the customer who bought it. problems to the end!
Nice diag my bro
Ove had this happen to me due to bad connection at the injectors. Took me a while to find it.
Would have liked to know what happened with the original engine, I'm thinking mechanical timing is off due to worn timing chain guide caused by improper maintenance
The first thing I'd check is the spare tire pressure. EDIT: i honestly paused the vid at 16:53 Start with the super-basics: is there spark? is there fuel delivery?
So it's cheaper to replace the engine instead of repairing the old one?
Ivan in the beginning you kind of glazed over the long term fuel trim that was high. Any reason not to investigate that further?
Well, you're getting better at least you didn't destroy a rod. lol
it is a brain buster for sure. I Think you are on the right track too bad the data isn't more definitative. Poor / no maintenance by the previous owner. New vehicle are very complex and maintenance schedules need to be followed. I'd hate to own this money pit
I'm guessing the injection was occurring after spark, leaving the plugs wet, but not making any power.
You would think Ford would catch on that driving the water pump with the timing chain is not a good idea. They should have figured that out from the early eighties Escorts. The fact that they haven't figured that out after 45 years would make you think they do it on purpose for planned obsolescence.
Oh these are the fun ones.
So will there be be an update when\if the shop checks the mechanical timing on that engine cuz you know inquiring minds want to know…it’s just what we mechanics do so the impulse to scratch the head goes away..
See pinned comment 👍
Most Ford COP systems fire in a Waste Spark concept until the cam sensors sync the coils to a single firing event from my experience. It should run with a loss of cam signals. 15 degrees would sound about right as most fords ran at 10 degrees base timing but I'm not sure. waiting for the reveal...
When using the crank gear to cakculate valve timing, don't you need to consider that the valve gear rotates 1 time for every 2 crank rotations.