So did they pull the timing cover off the engine when they removed it? Did you get to find out if the chain was three teeth off after all? A great vid but sort of ends without outcome?
I also felt it was a poor ending with no real resolution. Like I wasted my time watching. If these keep ending like this it would make me not want to watch future videos. I watch for an answer to be found.
@@maxium4x4 I’m quite aware of how it all works. Ivan however makes the decision on what videos to post, and what not to, and I’m saying, if these are how the videos keep going down, I’ll be less inclined to watch, clear?
yep. Mine failed on my Lincoln MKX. Never a steady check engine light. Started just randomly misfiring, then back to normal. And one day woodruff key just gave out. Bad compression on 4 cylinders after :(
Did they pull the old engines timing cover off to see how far out it was? You did your usual great job, that dealer really cares about the customer after the sale!
Ivan, another great video. Thanks for always giving closure to these case studies. So many similar videos I’ve watched from other channels leave you wondering how the story ends. Not that I feel like I’m owed that but it’s frustrating. You and Eric O are gracious enough to give your viewers the “Paul Harvey - Rest of the Story” and I for one appreciate it. Thanks!
A used car dealer (that doesn't exist anymore) in State College did that to me. Fortunately it was just a rusted fuel filler neck, but still a shady move 😬
Look at the cam , solenoids, if they are sludged up , they will cause a stalling or rough idle . I have done a lot of the 3.5l timing chains and water pumps , the cam sprockets will come apart or become stuck due to sludge or debris also ...
Maybe when the ecu sees a correlation issue between the crank and cam sensors it defaults to only using the crank sensor, which would explain the wasted spark. If that is the case it's pretty poor not to throw some kind of error code.
@@rmr5740 I converted my classic bug to use a modern fuel injection setup. It has a trigger wheel but no cam sensor, so I set the injectors to run as a batched pair matching the wasted spark events. I'd imagine the same would happen in this case. Might also explain why the plugs where soaked in fuel.
When you were describing the wave form and said both cams were identical ,crank gear timing was what I was thinking also,,,see we learn from watching this channel !!! Great diag Ivan
Hyndai Getz 1.4 2008 year, I replaced the spark plugs, wires, ignition coil with new ones and still the revolutions fluctuated at idle. There was a misfire in the fourth cylinder. When it was warm, everything was perfect. I took the ECU off the car. I washed all the pins. I soldered the pins of the ECU that lead to the two ignition coils with tin and sprayed before installing With the WÜRTH contact spray, all the pins are in the connector and on the ECU as well. The result is good. When starting from cold, the revolutions are stable at 1200 minutes and then slowly drop. There are no more engine skips or error codes at all. It took me 5 hours to do this work. The car's ECU was under the left armature. and it was very difficult to get it from there.
Great video Ivan, nice to follow along with your thought process. So many vehicles are having timing issues these days. A small variation in timing will set fault codes to a otherwise smooth running engine.
It would be nice to have the original engine to look at. To look at the timing location. I think you are correct on the diagnose, I think it was out of time.
Part 2, the odd delayed start waveform - first thought is that it's not reading the cam sensor, or it's too out of sync with the crank to use, so it's relying on the crank and firing every rotation as a fallback system?
Great video Ivan. The 3.3/3.5/3.7 NA Cyclone engines have been very reliable and used in many applications since 2007. Failure at 107,000mi is not common. Previous usage/maintenance history would be interesting. Good on the dealer to make things right for the customer.
Worked on a Turbo Buick with the same symptoms. Both check/ purge valves in the PCV system were stuck wide open and it would intermittently foul the sparkplugs. It was only noticeable to the owner while getting on the highway. It was fairly repeatable by the time I saw it, but was driven like that for a year.
I think the testing and inspection was spot on here. But I would love to have seen a cam crank correlation on this vehicle next to a know good. Enjoying the videos Ivan, keep up the good work and ignore the negative comments.
Hi Ivan, I'm with you about the cam timing. the chain is very long and it is easy to stretch enough to cause it to jump time. the spark is most likely driven off the crank position. Rich
I've cared for several of these units with high miles/high hours in police service with no engine issues. They got regular service though. They actually didn't require much at all for repairs in general. They will need a wheel bearing or two usually however...
The damage to valves, pistons, etc, can be catastrophic when an engine jumps time. This one still sounded good when turning over, but without a visual inspection, who knows what kind of carnage was beneath the covers?
I had a 16 Explorer with the 3.7 with vvt codes causing a bank to misfire. Metal got up into the cam cap at the head and intermittently caused the issue. It looked like a very small curved piece of oil pickup tube piece of steel. Got a used engine and that was that.
I bought a 16 Explorer not long ago with no issues, a month goes by. Crank, but no start happen without no warning. She drove it home with no issues and the next morning it wouldn't start. I had thought it was a bad battery and wasn't. Got it towed to a local shop, they didn't know what the issue was so they said they will change just the spark plugs first... Got the car back... I still don't believe spark plugs was the caused...
The scope is a must for these cars, but how many dealers use one in their shops to find the problem instead of just remove and replace until the parts cannon in empty
The first thing I'd check is the spare tire pressure. EDIT: i honestly paused the vid at 16:53 Start with the super-basics: is there spark? is there fuel delivery?
Excellent thought process on a difficult problem! Swapping the engine seems like the simplest solution - attempting to repair the faulty engine would be costly and an absolute gamble on possible other problems. I would have loved to see the timing cover off, but that's just curiosity and the time spent on that, wouldn't serve any purpose.
My old 2010 RAV4 2.5 exhibited some similar problems twice. We bought it knowing that it would need the intake cam phaser replaced eventually. What this one did was a severe shudder that lasted about 30 seconds, both times on an up hill grade. Neither incident caused a MIL. Power was slightly reduced for the rest of the drive cycle. When I eventually replaced both cam phasers, and the complete timing set (40k after the second incident) what I found was a lot of oil coking due to non synthetic oil usage by the previous original owner. When I replaced the timing set it was for a cam/crank correlation code. What I suspect caused the shudder was a loss of cam phasing control due to oil restrictions. I believe the fault shut the VVTi off but didn't set a code.
Grabbin a cam-crank with the pressure transducer would have been insightful, I’m sure. The way you dig and think, Ivan, I feel we are a lot alike in this area my man. It’s hard to “give up” so to speak. But I’m pretty sure in this case, cam-crank, and if necessary, grabbing a known good off IATN or the pico library would have taken you where you wanted to go.✌️🤜
Pity that there was no definitive answer after installing new engine. Could have checked with the scope on the new engine. However you may have to return back at some point, hopefully not.
interesting the engine was that far out of time without throwing a cam/crank correlation code... Great diagnostic work, you have almost convinced me to buy a pressure transducer and oscilloscope!
It was a good move economically to replace rather than repair. I suspect the car will rust apart before any engine issues occur. Thanks for the video. It's something to learn and remember.
I have a 2014 Explorer Sport (3.5 ecoboost) that threw P0021, P052C, P052A, P0018 and P0016. Engine still ran pretty good, but obviously had a problem. Front cover came off, and the chain had skipped some teeth. Full timing job. Engine now runs very smooth.
Someone was there before you. Water pump failed and they installed new pump and chain. Messed up the timing chain and then traded it in. Replace the timing chain and pump etc. Do the job right. However since it is an interference engine did this cause valve piston strikes. Yep might have to replace the engine. Good luck as replacement engines are hard to come by due to EV Government push.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Then you have timing failure. Time for water pump replacement. Hope that the bank two did not stretch or damage the valves. That happen to an engine 3.5 duratec that was replace with me and a friend. You can diagnose as much as you want. you are still replacing or repairing that engine. Bank 1 (against firewall) failed. ruclips.net/video/mIpobKIA_RI/видео.html
@@MACTFordEdge Did you not watch to the end. lol.. They replaced the engine.. I bet they could have just done a timing job and been fine, because they didn't completely loose timing, it just jumped a few teeth; meaning, I don't think it would have contacted the valves. So they took that engine in as a core-- and I bet they fixed it and resold it again. (or will)
@@calholli It was a catastrophic failure. Valves and pistons did hit. It was repaired by replacing the engine by me and a friend for a single mom with kids and cost her nothing.
That was very interesting. I'm surprised that there isn't a timing mark or visible keyway on the crank so one could check crank/valve timing without removing the front engine covers...just the front valve cover. Still...excellent diagnosis. You are a wizard with those scopes, Eric. The first time I saw you do an electrical load relative compression test...blew my mind.
1:58 That sounds like the PCM is being overloaded and/or too much traffic on the Canbus network suddenly. (usually a module breaking/gaining connection) Clocksprings also can have high resistance on the Canbus passthrough.
@@travissheehan6082 I initially wrote a neutral what if type of post, but I didnt want it to be misunderstood as an argument or personal attack. So the important bit is that sometimes you could fix the kind of problem accidentally with an engine swap just be deoxidizing the connectors (by just plugging them in aggressively), and that might be confusing to someone trying to learn the best practices. Until we get either better quality coding/programming from what bidder is outsourced to write that modules code, or more likely and better, more information on how cause and effect work inside the PCM, Canbus problems ruin a lot of customer wallets without fixing the source issue. I dont fault any mechanic for struggling with Canbus, not every mechanic should have to be a systems engineer. The flowchart isnt supposed to be the end all be all, its for when you are stuck. There is a strong possibility you are right, I just wanted to cover the bases just incase. Being a mechanic only gets harder every new model year unless your also a systems engineer. Kind of like when you see a specialist doctor and they try and say all your problems are caused by (whatever their specialty is here).
Ivan on you final explanation u said , that each tooth on the crank gear is 13 degrees. And it looks like was advanced 39 degrees, so the chain jumped 3 teeth?
Most Ford COP systems fire in a Waste Spark concept until the cam sensors sync the coils to a single firing event from my experience. It should run with a loss of cam signals. 15 degrees would sound about right as most fords ran at 10 degrees base timing but I'm not sure. waiting for the reveal...
Interesting case study, the rc test where the ignition fires every 3 'humps' is something i have seen before on other v6 cars with cop ignition, some sort of startup strategy perhaps? Thinking about this case, maybe a cam-crank capture might have given some more data, there are good captures available. Another idea is to perhaps use a 2nd transducer on the intake to monitor valve movements. Thank you Ivan for your efforts, i always appreciate your videos.
The engine people took it as a core.. and I bet they will just do a timing job on it and resell it again.... But we do "know for sure": that compression waveform is definitive. He just didn't show a 'known good' so people understand the difference; but it was very obviously wrong.
I agree that the waveform evidence is compelling (notably the identical waveform on both banks - the whole valvetrain is offset by the same amount) - seeing a teardown would have made for a satisfying end to the video, but wasn't going to happen in the context of economical diagnosis and repair.
Long, long time ago ... I was involved with the software for engine controls. One of the key things was to fire spark and fuel as soon as possible after the engine starts to crank. With the Ford 36 minus 1 crank position wheel it could take 2 revolutions before crank and cam were synchronized (this is BEFORE they added independent cam timing). The teeth are spaced at 10°, but you have to "detect" the "missing tooth" before you can do anything. Even then you can only do "waste spark" until you sync with the cam sensor.
The news somewhere had a guy with a Subaru the dealer threw parts at for years, and it never started right, or reliably. A TV station got involved, and they finally bought it back. Right away I thought, they are NOT diagnosing it, Ivan could have FIXED it.
Could the crankshaft sensor have been put in the mix? When I saw three humps between spark signals, I was sure that the bank 1 secondary chain had broken, but that's why we never assume off 1 data set.
Hi Ivan, I enjoy thinking through the diagnostics with you. If you had to purchase another scan tool today, would you stick with the Thinktool or lean towards a different brand? Thanks for the videos.
So will there be be an update when\if the shop checks the mechanical timing on that engine cuz you know inquiring minds want to know…it’s just what we mechanics do so the impulse to scratch the head goes away..
Ivan, I would have sure liked to have known how far out of time that engine was when you had your instruments hooked up. I am surprised the dealer repaired the car for the customer instead of telling them to pound sand. In that last video of that training session you attended, during the dinner scene, I could have sworn I saw Brandon Steckler sitting next to you. He's big into pressure wave forms. So, I am going to call you Brandon Steckler, Jr. from now on....GREAT VIDEO!
Well, they offer a warranty. If it's within the warranty window (could be 3 months, 3200 miles or something, or a shorter 1 month 600 miles, I don't know...) they HAVE to fix it or it's an easy easy lawsuit. Some states allow "as is, no warranty" sales from dealers, but this car didn't sound "as is" because Ivan said it had a warranty.
Had a 6.6L Chevrolet with an intermittent crank no start. Scan tool data said 30 degrees of variance between actual and desired cam position. Turns out it spit out a thrust bearing and the crank was moving to far from the sensor
This is interesting. Spark should occur at 2 to 4 degrees. Not 13 or more. Good call Ivan. It looks like the wave forms weren't lying. That main chain must have jumped a few teeth. And I'm willing to bet that the original complaint was a flopping timing chain. It all makes sense.
Fords are very popular in my area having 2 Ford plants within 25 miles of our city seems that’s what everyone drives 😂 I’ve seen on the 3.5 and older 3.7 the tensioners fail and skip time. Wonder if the waterpump had been replaced before that lot got the vehicle. Seen a lot of shady water pump replacements too!
Would have liked to know what happened with the original engine, I'm thinking mechanical timing is off due to worn timing chain guide caused by improper maintenance
Good diagnostic method. Win some lose some on the outcome. But good instructions on scope use and diagnostics, very useful to techs wishing to expand their knowlege base.
So how did we get from "timing is off" to replacing the whole engine? Is it actually cheaper to just swap the whole unit on these Fords rather than pull the timing cover?
Your pressure peak in cylinder is not a good reference to TDC with a timing issues. Using CKP with the Ignition strike is. Either way the engine covers need to come off. I feel bad for the customer who bought it. problems to the end! Nice diag my bro
Could all of this started from prior oner not changing oil ? With all the modern technology on these new automotive engines do they require oil pressure before starting or spark release to start ? Dirty oil could have caused trimming chain to jump from the tensioners worn out ?
Previous owner didn’t change the oil. That’s why the solenoid was acting funny until the new, clean oil cleared it up. But the stretched chain/bad guide/tensioner wasn’t gonna fix itself!
Tell me if you think this might work as a way of telling how worn out a timing chain might be. During a test drive and monitoring crank shaft position along with cam or cams and in this using a scope, moderately accelerate going up a hill holding steady speed and then releasing the throttle all the way, let the vehicle slowed down a little then began accelerating again but not enough to allow shifting. You should be able to see and come pair the position of the crank as compared to the cam, cams. They should shift (in degrees) keeping in mind the commands of the computer. Now note how great the shift (in degrees) there was between the cam, cams and the crankshaft. This should be able to tell you how far out the cams were compared to the crankshaft. Let me know if you would, if the chain was slapping you could actually see a comparison between the two cams. Interesting to say the least.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I have never used a scope the way you have so I'm sure you would know, I'm guessing it's how accurate the scope is. I was just thinking by slacking the chain and then tightening while running it would be able to be seen. In the olden days we could rock the crank back and forth watching the cam or a set-up liter and could tell if the chain was shot.
@@newnews3361 the tensioner should keep the chain tight while running. If it's making a racket, you don't need a scope to diagnose the problem... Maybe a stethoscope 😊
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics My point, more than likely you had a chain problem. Please no disrespect. I'm an old auto mechanic but I have, somewhat kept up with today systems. No more hands on for me. You're channel is fun for me. I'm an old has-been.
Similar to my honda crv 1999, but misfire and shaking happen every 6 months, 3 months, sometimes, shaking with no check engine light, neither code stored, ( but it is cleare misfire), and somtimes flashing check engine light ( misfire on any cylinder) but no shaking, and other times, shaking with check engine light flashing. First problem was loose ignition wires after installing the start button system and connect electric wire with the quickdisconnect connector. I had to reerstablish a solide connection, this problem cause the car to shake from time to time but no check engine light or code. Second problem was, oil on two of the spark pkugs, which caused the check engine light to flash (misfire on any cylinder), but no shaking, Car runs normal, replace the valve cover gascket assemblly with spark plug tube seals, and i also remove the distributor cap and i cleanned the cap and the rotor from some corrusion on them, and also replace the spark plugs, i didnt really know what cause the check engine light to flash: cap and rotor corrussion or engine oil on the spark plug, or both. Third time, problem was bad quality distributor rotor and cap, that i did clean on the second problem, first they cause the car to shake for a few second after starting the car, but no check engine light and no code stored, and second time, after one night, i start the car, and check engine light start flashing(misfire on any cylinder) but no shaking, car runs and drives normal, i cleared the code, but when start the car again, the flashing check engine come back after 5 second, the distributor cap and rotor corrode fast less than 2 or 3 month. After cleaning them again and installing them back, i cleared the check engine and start the car the flashing check engine light goes away, no more, lucky me this time i have honda OEM cap and rotor bought from amazon, lomg time.after the second proble happ, ened, and i will install them sooner.
Question, if you have a break in the wiring going to a fuel injector, with a check engine light and running rough. Will that damage the non working cylinders or does it still get lubricated ? Would you drive it to the dealership for harness replacement ?
A classic analog compression check would be absolutely worthless here. However with the pressure transducer and an oscilloscope, we could see the advanced camshafts clear as day 😎👍
So did they pull the timing cover off the engine when they removed it? Did you get to find out if the chain was three teeth off after all? A great vid but sort of ends without outcome?
Engine was returned as a core. Mechanic said it made really bad sounds like a failed tensioner jumping teeth when he turned it over by hand 😅
That explains it all - chain stretched too far, throwing the timing off.@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
I also felt it was a poor ending with no real resolution. Like I wasted my time watching. If these keep ending like this it would make me not want to watch future videos. I watch for an answer to be found.
@@GNX157 Ivan does not own the vehicle and was diagnosing. Final decision was made by the dealer to replace the engine.
@@maxium4x4 I’m quite aware of how it all works. Ivan however makes the decision on what videos to post, and what not to, and I’m saying, if these are how the videos keep going down, I’ll be less inclined to watch, clear?
To be honest I like the sound of this dealer. They seemed willing to fix it before AND after the sale.
well making 10 - 12 grand off it, I guess they should.
Yes they want to keep their good reputation and will not sell a vehicle without a warranty 🙂
Well that.. and it's the law. So yeah
@@calhollinot everywhere. Some states allow AS IS, NO WARRANTY sales from dealers.
What law is t h at?
The absolute best diagnostic channel on the interwebs! You are a great teacher, Ivan. Thanks for doing your videos.
Thanks James, we all learn something new every day! 🙂
"Cars can be weird", Ivan PHAD. Sounds like a T-shirt to me 👍
I love an Ivan mystery in the morning!
Morning in North Korea?
Try a breaker bar on the crank pulley. Work the crank back and fourth. Usually you can feel and hear the slop in the chain.
I work at a dealership & we've had 2 of these Explorers come in for water pumps & found the woodruff keys half sheared causing timing codes
yep. Mine failed on my Lincoln MKX. Never a steady check engine light. Started just randomly misfiring, then back to normal. And one day woodruff key just gave out. Bad compression on 4 cylinders after :(
@@Innov8vMikeDid the piston hit the valves?
@@gregjohnson2073 sadly so
I blame the alien warp drive causing the crank no start after Ivan & the Explorer get abducted. Lovin the video's extra length of playtime.
Did they pull the old engines timing cover off to see how far out it was? You did your usual great job, that dealer really cares about the customer after the sale!
Ivan, another great video. Thanks for always giving closure to these case studies. So many similar videos I’ve watched from other channels leave you wondering how the story ends. Not that I feel like I’m owed that but it’s frustrating. You and Eric O are gracious enough to give your viewers the “Paul Harvey - Rest of the Story” and I for one appreciate it. Thanks!
At least that used car dealer seems to be honest? Most used car dealers near me would probably just clear the CEL and sell it.
A used car dealer (that doesn't exist anymore) in State College did that to me. Fortunately it was just a rusted fuel filler neck, but still a shady move 😬
On old junkers.. sure. but when you're selling for "new car" prices. You have to do more
Absolutely the best diagnostic channel.
Look at the cam , solenoids, if they are sludged up , they will cause a stalling or rough idle . I have done a lot of the 3.5l timing chains and water pumps , the cam sprockets will come apart or become stuck due to sludge or debris also ...
Maybe when the ecu sees a correlation issue between the crank and cam sensors it defaults to only using the crank sensor, which would explain the wasted spark.
If that is the case it's pretty poor not to throw some kind of error code.
Wow that’s an amazing deduction. I won’t forget that
Interesting. What would they do about injector timing?
@@rmr5740 I converted my classic bug to use a modern fuel injection setup.
It has a trigger wheel but no cam sensor, so I set the injectors to run as a batched pair matching the wasted spark events.
I'd imagine the same would happen in this case.
Might also explain why the plugs where soaked in fuel.
When you were describing the wave form and said both cams were identical ,crank gear timing was what I was thinking also,,,see we learn from watching this channel !!! Great diag Ivan
These 3.5 chains are very prone to stretch because of the length , replaced a few.
Hyndai Getz 1.4 2008 year, I replaced the spark plugs, wires, ignition coil with new ones and still the revolutions fluctuated at idle. There was a misfire in the fourth cylinder. When it was warm, everything was perfect. I took the ECU off the car. I washed all the pins. I soldered the pins of the ECU that lead to the two ignition coils with tin and sprayed before installing With the WÜRTH contact spray, all the pins are in the connector and on the ECU as well. The result is good. When starting from cold, the revolutions are stable at 1200 minutes and then slowly drop. There are no more engine skips or error codes at all. It took me 5 hours to do this work. The car's ECU was under the left armature. and it was very difficult to get it from there.
what does have to do with repair what is a left armature
Great video Ivan, nice to follow along with your thought process. So many vehicles are having timing issues these days. A small variation in timing will set fault codes to a otherwise smooth running engine.
I noticed that about the Taurus, visibility is even worse than Explorer with skinny windows and huge slanted A pillars.
It would be nice to have the original engine to look at. To look at the timing location. I think you are correct on the diagnose, I think it was out of time.
14:15 "Open the garage door, Hal." "I'm afraid I can't do that, Ivan."
Part 2, the odd delayed start waveform - first thought is that it's not reading the cam sensor, or it's too out of sync with the crank to use, so it's relying on the crank and firing every rotation as a fallback system?
Great video Ivan. The 3.3/3.5/3.7 NA Cyclone engines have been very reliable and used in many applications since 2007. Failure at 107,000mi is not common. Previous usage/maintenance history would be interesting. Good on the dealer to make things right for the customer.
Worked on a Turbo Buick with the same symptoms. Both check/ purge valves in the PCV system were stuck wide open and it would intermittently foul the sparkplugs. It was only noticeable to the owner while getting on the highway. It was fairly repeatable by the time I saw it, but was driven like that for a year.
If someone was not changing oil properly before, it could easily lead to both slow VVT solenoid and failed chain tensioner which caused chain to jump.
I think the testing and inspection was spot on here. But I would love to have seen a cam crank correlation on this vehicle next to a know good. Enjoying the videos Ivan, keep up the good work and ignore the negative comments.
Hi Ivan, I'm with you about the cam timing. the chain is very long and it is easy to stretch enough to cause it to jump time. the spark is most likely driven off the crank position.
Rich
I've cared for several of these units with high miles/high hours in police service with no engine issues. They got regular service though.
They actually didn't require much at all for repairs in general. They will need a wheel bearing or two usually however...
Don’t the Police order their vehicles with special engines only they can order?
Who would have thought 30 years ago that replacing an engine would have been easier and less expensive than a timing job.
Probably not cheaper but it's a better bet that it wont come back for a second warranty repair that the dealer would have to pay for.
Sounds like it wasn't taken care of anyways. Shouldn't really have timing issues at 100k miles on these engines unless you ignore the oil.
The damage to valves, pistons, etc, can be catastrophic when an engine jumps time. This one still sounded good when turning over, but without a visual inspection, who knows what kind of carnage was beneath the covers?
30 years ago you never needed a "timing job" We never needed VVT either, it's just a troublesome unnecessary addition to an ICE.
I had a 16 Explorer with the 3.7 with vvt codes causing a bank to misfire. Metal got up into the cam cap at the head and intermittently caused the issue. It looked like a very small curved piece of oil pickup tube piece of steel. Got a used engine and that was that.
I bought a 16 Explorer not long ago with no issues, a month goes by. Crank, but no start happen without no warning. She drove it home with no issues and the next morning it wouldn't start. I had thought it was a bad battery and wasn't. Got it towed to a local shop, they didn't know what the issue was so they said they will change just the spark plugs first... Got the car back... I still don't believe spark plugs was the caused...
Ivan, love your videos but not enough to be forced to watch a 10 min unrelated commercial that can't be stopped!
10 minute forced commercial?? No way 😂
It's almost like you don't understand how RUclips works!!
The scope is a must for these cars, but how many dealers use one in their shops to find the problem instead of just remove and replace until the parts cannon in empty
The first thing I'd check is the spare tire pressure. EDIT: i honestly paused the vid at 16:53 Start with the super-basics: is there spark? is there fuel delivery?
Didn’t change the oil or used cheap or poor quality oil❤great video Ivan!!!!😊
31:56 He, why you don't do cam crack correlation?
Excellent thought process on a difficult problem! Swapping the engine seems like the simplest solution - attempting to repair the faulty engine would be costly and an absolute gamble on possible other problems. I would have loved to see the timing cover off, but that's just curiosity and the time spent on that, wouldn't serve any purpose.
Well THAT escalated quickly.
My old 2010 RAV4 2.5 exhibited some similar problems twice. We bought it knowing that it would need the intake cam phaser replaced eventually. What this one did was a severe shudder that lasted about 30 seconds, both times on an up hill grade. Neither incident caused a MIL. Power was slightly reduced for the rest of the drive cycle. When I eventually replaced both cam phasers, and the complete timing set (40k after the second incident) what I found was a lot of oil coking due to non synthetic oil usage by the previous original owner. When I replaced the timing set it was for a cam/crank correlation code. What I suspect caused the shudder was a loss of cam phasing control due to oil restrictions. I believe the fault shut the VVTi off but didn't set a code.
Grabbin a cam-crank with the pressure transducer would have been insightful, I’m sure. The way you dig and think, Ivan, I feel we are a lot alike in this area my man. It’s hard to “give up” so to speak. But I’m pretty sure in this case, cam-crank, and if necessary, grabbing a known good off IATN or the pico library would have taken you where you wanted to go.✌️🤜
Pity that there was no definitive answer after installing new engine.
Could have checked with the scope on the new engine.
However you may have to return back at some point, hopefully not.
Ivan I found your channel through Eric at South Main Auto.
Now I have 2 great diag people to watch
interesting the engine was that far out of time without throwing a cam/crank correlation code... Great diagnostic work, you have almost convinced me to buy a pressure transducer and oscilloscope!
Phenomenal video. I didn’t know if it had one chain or two so I was guessing one stretched rather than jumped teeth
Thanks Ivan!
I couldn't help but wonder if a bad crank sensor was giving bad data to the PCM...or maybe a reluctor wheel had somehow gone out of sync
It was a good move economically to replace rather than repair. I suspect the car will rust apart before any engine issues occur. Thanks for the video. It's something to learn and remember.
Could you scope the Crank position signal against the cam position signal?
I have a 2014 Explorer Sport (3.5 ecoboost) that threw P0021, P052C, P052A, P0018 and P0016. Engine still ran pretty good, but obviously had a problem. Front cover came off, and the chain had skipped some teeth. Full timing job. Engine now runs very smooth.
Someone was there before you. Water pump failed and they installed new pump and chain. Messed up the timing chain and then traded it in. Replace the timing chain and pump etc. Do the job right. However since it is an interference engine did this cause valve piston strikes. Yep might have to replace the engine. Good luck as replacement engines are hard to come by due to EV Government push.
Mechanic who did the engine swap said there were no signs of the timing cover ever being removed 👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Then you have timing failure. Time for water pump replacement. Hope that the bank two did not stretch or damage the valves. That happen to an engine 3.5 duratec that was replace with me and a friend. You can diagnose as much as you want. you are still replacing or repairing that engine. Bank 1 (against firewall) failed. ruclips.net/video/mIpobKIA_RI/видео.html
@@MACTFordEdge Did you not watch to the end. lol.. They replaced the engine.. I bet they could have just done a timing job and been fine, because they didn't completely loose timing, it just jumped a few teeth; meaning, I don't think it would have contacted the valves. So they took that engine in as a core-- and I bet they fixed it and resold it again. (or will)
@@calholli It was a catastrophic failure. Valves and pistons did hit. It was repaired by replacing the engine by me and a friend for a single mom with kids and cost her nothing.
That was very interesting. I'm surprised that there isn't a timing mark or visible keyway on the crank so one could check crank/valve timing without removing the front engine covers...just the front valve cover. Still...excellent diagnosis. You are a wizard with those scopes, Eric. The first time I saw you do an electrical load relative compression test...blew my mind.
1:58 That sounds like the PCM is being overloaded and/or too much traffic on the Canbus network suddenly. (usually a module breaking/gaining connection) Clocksprings also can have high resistance on the Canbus passthrough.
New engine wouldn’t have fixed that
@@travissheehan6082 I initially wrote a neutral what if type of post, but I didnt want it to be misunderstood as an argument or personal attack. So the important bit is that sometimes you could fix the kind of problem accidentally with an engine swap just be deoxidizing the connectors (by just plugging them in aggressively), and that might be confusing to someone trying to learn the best practices.
Until we get either better quality coding/programming from what bidder is outsourced to write that modules code, or more likely and better, more information on how cause and effect work inside the PCM, Canbus problems ruin a lot of customer wallets without fixing the source issue. I dont fault any mechanic for struggling with Canbus, not every mechanic should have to be a systems engineer. The flowchart isnt supposed to be the end all be all, its for when you are stuck.
There is a strong possibility you are right, I just wanted to cover the bases just incase. Being a mechanic only gets harder every new model year unless your also a systems engineer. Kind of like when you see a specialist doctor and they try and say all your problems are caused by (whatever their specialty is here).
Ivan on you final explanation u said , that each tooth on the crank gear is 13 degrees.
And it looks like was advanced 39 degrees, so the chain jumped 3 teeth?
Yup
Most Ford COP systems fire in a Waste Spark concept until the cam sensors sync the coils to a single firing event from my experience. It should run with a loss of cam signals. 15 degrees would sound about right as most fords ran at 10 degrees base timing but I'm not sure. waiting for the reveal...
So it's cheaper to replace the engine instead of repairing the old one?
Same question - Did they pull the front timing cover off? Nice to verify it jumping time was the issue! You can't leave us in such suspense!
Do you use anything special to clean the green crusties from out of the electrical sockets? What's you method?
Interesting case study, the rc test where the ignition fires every 3 'humps' is something i have seen before on other v6 cars with cop ignition, some sort of startup strategy perhaps? Thinking about this case, maybe a cam-crank capture might have given some more data, there are good captures available. Another idea is to perhaps use a 2nd transducer on the intake to monitor valve movements. Thank you Ivan for your efforts, i always appreciate your videos.
Unless the old engine somehow ends up on 'I Do Cars', I guess we'll never know for sure...
The engine people took it as a core.. and I bet they will just do a timing job on it and resell it again.... But we do "know for sure": that compression waveform is definitive. He just didn't show a 'known good' so people understand the difference; but it was very obviously wrong.
I agree that the waveform evidence is compelling (notably the identical waveform on both banks - the whole valvetrain is offset by the same amount) - seeing a teardown would have made for a satisfying end to the video, but wasn't going to happen in the context of economical diagnosis and repair.
Long, long time ago ... I was involved with the software for engine controls. One of the key things was to fire spark and fuel as soon as possible after the engine starts to crank. With the Ford 36 minus 1 crank position wheel it could take 2 revolutions before crank and cam were synchronized (this is BEFORE they added independent cam timing). The teeth are spaced at 10°, but you have to "detect" the "missing tooth" before you can do anything. Even then you can only do "waste spark" until you sync with the cam sensor.
These are also known for having cam phaser issues. The pin on the back side of the phaser that's supposed to lock it wears.
usually the phasers will make a rattle on a cold start
@@arnoldm889 Yes. Usually. But not always.
That hammer rash on your left thumb isn't going away anytime soon, is it? 👍🤣
Great diag.
That will need to actually "grow out." It will be a long time for that to happen.
Took my thumb nail the best part of a year to grow all the way back.
The news somewhere had a guy with a Subaru the dealer threw parts at for years, and it never started right, or reliably. A TV station got involved, and they finally bought it back.
Right away I thought, they are NOT diagnosing it, Ivan could have FIXED it.
Just saw that. Sounds like it had a parasitic draw killing the battery
@@mph5896 Yes, Ivan woulda NAILED it. Or Eric O too.
I also thought Ivan could have easily solved that problem.
When using the crank gear to cakculate valve timing, don't you need to consider that the valve gear rotates 1 time for every 2 crank rotations.
I wonder was it the Dreaded P0420 code that made the dealer change the cat. I am going thru the same issue with my tucson.
Could the crankshaft sensor have been put in the mix? When I saw three humps between spark signals, I was sure that the bank 1 secondary chain had broken, but that's why we never assume off 1 data set.
Hi Ivan, I enjoy thinking through the diagnostics with you. If you had to purchase another scan tool today, would you stick with the Thinktool or lean towards a different brand? Thanks for the videos.
The exhaust note or the inside sound of the engine sounds so weird when you accelerate or press the gas
So will there be be an update when\if the shop checks the mechanical timing on that engine cuz you know inquiring minds want to know…it’s just what we mechanics do so the impulse to scratch the head goes away..
See pinned comment 👍
Minute 25:13 the tower looks leaning to the side or is just the angle of the camera?
What problem was discovered that the engine has to be replaced? Please inform.
Ivan, I would have sure liked to have known how far out of time that engine was when you had your instruments hooked up. I am surprised the dealer repaired the car for the customer instead of telling them to pound sand. In that last video of that training session you attended, during the dinner scene, I could have sworn I saw Brandon Steckler sitting next to you. He's big into pressure wave forms. So, I am going to call you Brandon Steckler, Jr. from now on....GREAT VIDEO!
Well, they offer a warranty. If it's within the warranty window (could be 3 months, 3200 miles or something, or a shorter 1 month 600 miles, I don't know...) they HAVE to fix it or it's an easy easy lawsuit.
Some states allow "as is, no warranty" sales from dealers, but this car didn't sound "as is" because Ivan said it had a warranty.
@@volvo09 Apparently I missed that during the video. My state is one that allows "as is; no warranty." Thanks for pointing that out.
Had a 6.6L Chevrolet with an intermittent crank no start. Scan tool data said 30 degrees of variance between actual and desired cam position. Turns out it spit out a thrust bearing and the crank was moving to far from the sensor
This is interesting. Spark should occur at 2 to 4 degrees. Not 13 or more. Good call Ivan. It looks like the wave forms weren't lying. That main chain must have jumped a few teeth. And I'm willing to bet that the original complaint was a flopping timing chain. It all makes sense.
Thank you for making this video.
Anything on identifiX on this
Could it have been just a bad or slipped reluctor wheel for the sensor.
Fords are very popular in my area having 2 Ford plants within 25 miles of our city seems that’s what everyone drives 😂 I’ve seen on the 3.5 and older 3.7 the tensioners fail and skip time. Wonder if the waterpump had been replaced before that lot got the vehicle. Seen a lot of shady water pump replacements too!
Would have liked to know what happened with the original engine, I'm thinking mechanical timing is off due to worn timing chain guide caused by improper maintenance
Good diagnostic method. Win some lose some on the outcome. But good instructions on scope use and diagnostics, very useful to techs wishing to expand their knowlege base.
Come on Ivan my itch has not been scratched. The hardest part about this trade is sometimes we don’t get clarity and closure
Thanks for another episode!
So how did we get from "timing is off" to replacing the whole engine? Is it actually cheaper to just swap the whole unit on these Fords rather than pull the timing cover?
Your pressure peak in cylinder is not a good reference to TDC with a timing issues. Using CKP with the Ignition strike is. Either way the engine covers need to come off. I feel bad for the customer who bought it. problems to the end!
Nice diag my bro
I have a 2011 , the blind spot from the A pillars are horrible.
I'm guessing the injection was occurring after spark, leaving the plugs wet, but not making any power.
Could all of this started from prior oner not changing oil ? With all the modern technology on these new automotive engines do they require oil pressure before starting or spark release to start ? Dirty oil could have caused trimming chain to jump from the tensioners worn out ?
I was confused and scratching my head from beginning to end. I wonder what the actual problem was.
Previous owner didn’t change the oil. That’s why the solenoid was acting funny until the new, clean oil cleared it up. But the stretched chain/bad guide/tensioner wasn’t gonna fix itself!
@@travissheehan6082 That's too bad if true. Easy to prevent with 5K or under OCI
Tell me if you think this might work as a way of telling how worn out a timing chain might be.
During a test drive and monitoring crank shaft position along with cam or cams and in this using a scope, moderately accelerate going up a hill holding steady speed and then releasing the throttle all the way, let the vehicle slowed down a little then began accelerating again but not enough to allow shifting.
You should be able to see and come pair the position of the crank as compared to the cam, cams. They should shift (in degrees) keeping in mind the commands of the computer. Now note how great the shift (in degrees) there was between the cam, cams and the crankshaft. This should be able to tell you how far out the cams were compared to the crankshaft. Let me know if you would, if the chain was slapping you could actually see a comparison between the two cams. Interesting to say the least.
Sounds inconclusive at best...
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I have never used a scope the way you have so I'm sure you would know, I'm guessing it's how accurate the scope is. I was just thinking by slacking the chain and then tightening while running it would be able to be seen.
In the olden days we could rock the crank back and forth watching the cam or a set-up liter and could tell if the chain was shot.
@@newnews3361 the tensioner should keep the chain tight while running. If it's making a racket, you don't need a scope to diagnose the problem... Maybe a stethoscope 😊
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics My point, more than likely you had a chain problem. Please no disrespect. I'm an old auto mechanic but I have, somewhat kept up with today systems. No more hands on for me. You're channel is fun for me. I'm an old has-been.
I wonder if someone tried to change the water pump and didn’t get the timing right
Similar to my honda crv 1999, but misfire and shaking happen every 6 months, 3 months, sometimes, shaking with no check engine light, neither code stored, ( but it is cleare misfire), and somtimes flashing check engine light ( misfire on any cylinder) but no shaking, and other times, shaking with check engine light flashing.
First problem was loose ignition wires after installing the start button system and connect electric wire with the quickdisconnect connector. I had to reerstablish a solide connection, this problem cause the car to shake from time to time but no check engine light or code.
Second problem was, oil on two of the spark pkugs, which caused the check engine light to flash (misfire on any cylinder), but no shaking, Car runs normal, replace the valve cover gascket assemblly with spark plug tube seals, and i also remove the distributor cap and i cleanned the cap and the rotor from some corrusion on them, and also replace the spark plugs, i didnt really know what cause the check engine light to flash: cap and rotor corrussion or engine oil on the spark plug, or both.
Third time, problem was bad quality distributor rotor and cap, that i did clean on the second problem, first they cause the car to shake for a few second after starting the car, but no check engine light and no code stored, and second time, after one night, i start the car, and check engine light start flashing(misfire on any cylinder) but no shaking, car runs and drives normal, i cleared the code, but when start the car again, the flashing check engine come back after 5 second, the distributor cap and rotor corrode fast less than 2 or 3 month. After cleaning them again and installing them back, i cleared the check engine and start the car the flashing check engine light goes away, no more, lucky me this time i have honda OEM cap and rotor bought from amazon, lomg time.after the second proble happ,
ened, and i will install them sooner.
Hello state college. I maybe there in august for the amazing Billy strings concert!
Careful Ivan. If someone on the local board sees this video they might take your "used car sales" pitch seriously. :) :) :) 🤣
Isnt cylinder deactivation a symptom for modern vehicles
Question, if you have a break in the wiring going to a fuel injector, with a check engine light and running rough. Will that damage the non working cylinders or does it still get lubricated ? Would you drive it to the dealership for harness replacement ?
Is one tooth on primary chain = 30 degs?
Wow so many questions left me hanging but love ya vids thanks
I wonder what mode 6 VVT monitor numbers looked like before and after.
How many hours did you spend on that vehicle?
I'm a shade tree mechanic. So did you do a compression check. Might have shorten this dia.
A classic analog compression check would be absolutely worthless here. However with the pressure transducer and an oscilloscope, we could see the advanced camshafts clear as day 😎👍
With this many miles it probably needs timing set. If one could see how far the tensioner is extended possibly it would be a good indicator.
Ivan in the beginning you kind of glazed over the long term fuel trim that was high. Any reason not to investigate that further?