The Engoodening of No Man's Sky | Paws Reacts to Internet Historian
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- #vtuber #reaction #internethistorian
This video was recorded during my birthday bash, hence the names on my model and the timer that is ongoing. Lots of fun both here and on Twitch, I am so happy to have such an amazing community. No Man's Sky is a game that had quite the redemption arc.
Thanks for watching The Engoodening of No Man's Sky | Paws Reacts to Internet Historian
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For those watching and wondering about my screen:
The model is my April's Fool joke, she's Pawppet, my soul is trapped inside of her until I beat Elden Ring
Timer is for an event on Twitch currently ongoing, celebrating 1 year of being a vtuber and my birthday (May 9th), with the promise to do daily streams while it runs as a way to thank everyone for the support
Names are pinned on me due to the event also from viewers
I hope you enjoy the video! 🧡Thanks as always for watching! Also for those that cba to watch the entire thing, I think the company redeemed themselves and I am looking forward to seeing what else they come up with in the future. 👍
Epic seven lezgooo, new bride senya is about to be launched
Aww but I like the model
"The model is my April's Fool joke, she's Pawppet, my soul is trapped inside of her until I beat Elden Ring"
I hope you never beat it then. Happy Birthday.
There really is no way to know if he was lying or not. If he truly believed that him and his team were gonna be able to do all the things he said in those interviews, then they weren’t lies. Being wrong and lying are two very different things.
That's a very fair point!
theres also the possibility that he was saying the truth
whitin development we often half implement all features we want and slowly polish them or remove them based on feedback and other things
and he often uses the term "Right now you can" which seems to match this
1) Planned features and implemented features are not the same thing. You cannot play with planned features. So it has a direct effect on people's experience and decision to purchase. When someone asks Sean what features they game has, and he responds with features that the game will have, that Is lying.
2) The only case that this wasn't lying is that all the promised features were implemented, but they decided at the last minute to delay more than a dozen major features. An honest person would announce the delay of certain features, but Sean did no such thing. That is lying by ommission.
Sean did lie, that is a completely certain statement. He wanted to mislead customers into buying an unfinished game. If he did not intend to mislead people he would have clarified which features are planned, delayed, and at launch. He had many opportunities to do this, but he didn't.
And in the end? They DID deliver their promises, even though its 7 years due. Unlike Todd that you can't deny were lying out of his ass especially on Fallout 3 endings and 76.
He's not a PR guy. He's the lead dev. And he was constantly asked "Is the feature you're literally trying to put into the game with your own two hands, going to be in the game?" He'd certainly hope so
In defense of NMS:
They could have taken the money and ran multiple times. But they did not, they put out updates and they eventually gave most if not all, (been years since I played) of what they promised.
he didnt lie though thats the point, you just couldnt get over your hate.
I just said he did lie in my opinion and then moved on with my life. Forgiving someone and forgetting the past are different things. Sounds like you didn't really bother listening to the video. Not only did I not know about any of his stuff prior to this video years in the future, but I couldn't care less either. No idea what hate you're envisioning lol
He's not a pathological liar. He is an introverted, anti-social game dev who hates talking but loves creating and he had no choice in the interviews.
Sure, you can make the argument about him taking the offer which caused him to be forced into those interviews, but that would literally be the equivalent of being visited by the owner of the lottery, being offered a multi-million dollar check for free, and declining. No one in their right mind would do that on the spot.
At the end of the day, he did accept it and he did fumble most if not all of the interviews that decision forced him into, but he redeemed all of those mistakes and went far above and beyond with the masterpiece he and his studio developed it into over time.
It hurt my soul when I heard that Sean Murray directed all hateful messages and feedback to him from other team members. After that, I couldn't be mad at him anymore (if I ever was).
Sean earned his forgiveness, and he and his team were ultimately small and shouldered the metaphorical burdens of atlas.
The difference between Hello Games/No Man's Sky and AAA studios is that the former repented and did right by their customers. The AAA companies have yet to show any remorse, and frankly I'm not sure I'd believe them if they did.
Honestly, I was never mad at him or kept up with any news when the game came out. I tried it out, found it boring, put it aside for a while and came back much later and it was fun. I feel for the guy having to go through all of the messages and do what is usually a QA job, it's a rough job. Probably worse since he was the face of the game and hate was directed towards him.
Looking at how the game is now, he more than earned forgiveness for the rocky start.
。😅
He took all that criticism and broke it down into usable data that’s still informing development decisions for the game to this day. No Man’s Sky is well beyond the promised game at this point and it’s still only getting better.
The funniest part of this video to me is that they had to remove a feature from the game because people were to dumb to figure out how planetary rotation works.
That is hysterically funny
What do you mean?
@@Aladius in the game each planet had a day/night cycle where the side that was pointed at the sun would often point away from the sun after the beta testers left the planet for a while and came back, the fools reported planetary rotation as a bug every... single... dang... time!
Flat earthers.
That still hurts my heart
Couldn't finish the last half hour, and I usually really like your vids.
The zero empathy and ignoring most of the video was pretty rough. Big holier than thou vibe as a result, unfortunately.
So, something you kept bringing up was that Sean is a liar. I think the thing you missed, though is that a lot of the questions Murry answered in early ntervews with a "yes" were done so because they had those features in development in the game initially. But they were short on developers and short on time to develop and make those features polished and work properly. Years later, those features had proven to be too difficult and ambitious to develop in time for the games deadline. So, they had to go to the scrap yard. After the game was released to the public, Murry and Hello Games started working on going back to that scrap yard and bringing those features back into the game.
She also wanted to say the 60 dollar price tag wasn't the biggest problem compared to the interviews. Then later on she talks about trust and goodwill and if a game is in early access or not. 1:16:10 If it came out as a 20 dollar game, it wouldn't have been hyped as much with features and etc. It'd have just been a janky indie game still getting hate, but not nearly as much.
Yeah! And to add, the media twist it all to maintain the hype.
Hello Games have patched things up with their community so much, some of the players are literally begging them to start charging for their DLC-sized updates. Those pleas are yet unanswered.
I believe that they are genuine, they aren't doing it to just for PR so that their next project won't be dead on arrival due to tarnished reputation. They've done WAY too much for WAY too long for that to be the reason.
They're working on something new, aren't they? I heard it was fantasy game leveraging their experience with procedural generation.
@@cryw1092 that will be the big test for what they learned. If all they learned from NMS fiasco is that they can release half-baked trash and then patch it into a more playable state over the years, the public opinion on them will sour. I'm still hopeful though.
@@cryw1092 It's Called "Light No Fire" and will be a Survival MMO Type of Game with Procedural Generation why Hellogames needs the "No" in every of there Mainlie Releases is beyond me but it's hopefully going to be Finished on Release seeing as they are still going full steam on NMS and also do this all I ask is that they take there Time and Budget it better.
I disagree with him being a lair in the end. I believe he was talking about what they wanted in the game and the fact that they continued to work on the game and delivered on what they and the players wanted turned the lip service to truth. If they were the same greedy types we see all over AAA the major updates they have been releasing for free for EIGHT years would of ALL instead been paid DLC. And because of recent events with Helldivers 2 I think Sony is to blame for the early release. As the publisher they would have been the one to push the release date on the company even though the game wasn't complete. Hello Games would have been able to plead with Sony to let them keep working on it but it would have ultimately been Sony's call to release the game as is, which is why they only got to push it back six weeks.
Could very well be. In my eyes, never actually clarifying that it was about their vision and not what's in the game still remains, hence why I consider it lying.
Also to clarify, I don't hate the guy, the company or keep a grudge, I never even knew about most of his "promises" as they were advertised. I do agree Sony pretty much shafted them and released an early access / alpha title as a full priced finished game. Which is sad, since years later, this game is actually really cool and came into its own. I respect them for working on it and not asking for money as DLCs (despite my cynic perspective that I cannot know for sure their intent there)
@@pawsvtuber I'm still currently rewatching his old interviews, but so far he seems to giving either 'no' or 'sorta/maybe/could be' with very few straightforward 'yes' answers. I don't think IH put enough emphasis on how clickbaitey the journalism really was. Also, all those no's in the video were in fact DIFFERENT no's, not the same one; IH had to pull them from somewhere, no? Also, the interviewers I've seen so far were rather pushy and would try to be sneaky or reword questions to try and trip him up. But I might be biased. Dunno bout the tweets.
Anyway, there's few actual lies, just mostly vague possibilities that journos ran with, as journos do. He really should have hired a PR guy. Still, good react and standing by your convictions.
@@pawsvtuber Thats fair. Not knowing intent is a very valid reason for the perspective. And while I my be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt(mostly cause they were a tiny indie group and it was 8 years ago) with recent years of gaming bungles(looking at how Bethesda talked up starfield, i fell for that one too) I TOTALLY get not wanting to give gaming companies any slack. Cause now a days I don't want to either.
@@pawsvtuberActions speak louder than words. If the motive was to lie/scam people with fale promises they wouldnt have spent so much effort to fix it for this many years with no potential fananical gain in return.
To your point about him not being clear about what he thinks can be in the game vs what he promises will be in the game internett historian covered that pretty well. Sean is a textbook introvert that had never done press/media circus in his life. They couldnt afford to hire anyone strictly for PR so he was ulimatly the one who stepped up, he has since said that every interview and speaking situation was nerve wracking for him.
I would like to add that what he was is incompetent and not a liar. The only lie was the release date. In the end he delivered what he promised.
Still horrible how they handled the advertisement of the game.
In regards specifically to Paw's comment about saying that sitting down and fixing the game was "needed" or "required" versus out of the goodness of their hearts, it was in fact not required. As IH said, they could have just packed it up, taken their huge profits from opening day and retired if they wanted, they all go home as small time millionaires, but they didn't is the point and put a lot of that money back into the game. If they wanted to make new games to sell sure, they would have needed a redemption arc, but they also could have just lived their lives comfortable off that money instead.
Which is what most devs sadly do in their place.
And it seems like Hello Games has actually learned with the No Man's Sky's PR disaster. They announced their new game, Light no Fire, and beyond what they said during its announcement, they've been pretty silent about it as far as I know.
I just hope that LNF will let me play with friends on launch cross platform, so I could play as one of those rabbit guys, one of my friends could play as a skeleton or something. Either way, I hope that LNF has magic, magic items, and lore similar to Dark Souls.
I hope so, I look forward to seeing all they will do with it!
you are rather pessimistic. but i do think they did there best in all the circumstances they had and were rushed in development.
For me, I do not consider someone 'a liar' simply because they 'have lied.' I make a distinction there. A person can lie for any number of reasons. Corporate pressure, for example, could make someone claim the E3 presentation 'totally wasn't scripted', or have to make a follow-up statement to muddy the waters after making a clarifying statement "No Man's Sky is not multiplayer" to ensure that one doesn't "drive away potential sales".
Social pressure, to make sure the game as successful as possible for one's team, could lead one to claim that features that are currently only being dabbled with will end up being full features of the end product. Fear of disappointment could lead to one questioning if it's a good idea to make clarifying statements to big, important, professional reviewers and journalists, that 'no, actually, we're currently only tinkering with multiplayer and it's up in the air whether or not it will be ready on-release'. An introvert would question if that was the sort of thing only they felt the need to clarify, and others would simply - just understand, maybe not quite comprehending the sheer gulf between the developer and the audience.
Sean has definitely lied. But for me, is he a liar? I don't think so. I don't trust that his lies were purely self-serving, or self-motivated, or done simply for lying's sake. I think it was done because he was out of his element, ill-suited for the position he was thrust into, and trying to make the best of an uncomfortable situation. And while I won't claim that Sony explicitly told him to lie - I also wouldn't put that completely into the realm of impossibility, either. The corpos aren't exactly known for their iron-clad morals.
Love ya Paws, but you keep saying "he is a liar", he wasn't.
Those passing comments were things he believed they COULD do by 2016, that doesn't make you a liar, it makes you incorrect.
It's not like they barely made a game, they just made less than they thought they could, working tirelessly mind you, compare the 76 stuff to this and you'll see "liar" > I'm more just defending the "promises not being met" as not being "lies", but just him being wrong, as shown at the end, given time nearly all thje major stuff has been added that was "promised" before launch, it's just the scope of the game exceeded their capabilities, and while one could argue he "lied" about their capabilities, 3 years is a very long time, 3 years ago from now we was mid covid, so he likely thought they'd be able to implement most of the stuff, even if minimally, and it wasn't until a year out or maybe 6 months ouit he'd have been like "fuck", and he explicitly said he didn't wanna disappoint people.
I feel like the reason IH and myself would want you to cut him slack is his genuine care, whilst big games devs (Bethesda) just doubled down withj the middle finger
Precisely, she said that what Sean and Hello Games did in fixing their game is their obligation for "lying". Like gurl, you watched the fall of 76 video, you even said in one of the comments here how awful it is to buy an un-unfinished game and still missed the point. Gaming studios, publishers have NO OBLIGATION to the players who bought the game on fixing their game and delivering on their promises after profiting. She's doubling down but never saw her irony.
Time will tell? It's been nearly a decade, how much time do you need?
I don't need any time since I don't care or have a stance on the game. I bought it on launch, played a bit, moved on, played a bit years later, moved on, will probably play a bit more soon. I've never cared for the drama of it, this video showed me what happened on the media and most of this was something that I, as a consumer, never knew.
Sony pigeonholed a team to release an early access title that took years to be what the team wanted it to be and they did it. That's all I took from this video. Sean's behavior, despite imo being bad, is not something unforgiveable, we're all human. Time will tell what lesson they learned, how much their relationship changed with the publisher, what will happen next. I am more referring to their new game than anything, that's where you can see how the lessons they learned here are applied.
Hope that clarifies it!
The "time will tell" got me too, like at a certain point in the video she just started seeing red and might as well have not even been watching anymore, lmao
they just put out another update like a few weeks ago :D theyve added so so much
Welp this backfired, I was one of the many people that wanted to see your reaction to this Internet Historian video, little did I know I would actually be disappointed with just how many times you pause to rant about Sean Murray lying 😅
I think people miss one bit: as IH said those "promises" were what they THINK they can do. Many interviews were done WAY before actual release. Most things were ether on the list or they been working on it.
Game was unfinished on release. Maybe they didn't make it on time. Maybe some things didn't work aš intended. But I do not considet it as "Lies". Lie is something i consider intensional.
I think the actual "lying" that can't be excused was the damage control after the game was released, however, it just seems so out of character for Sean to pull fast ones like this. It makes me wonder if the original tweet saying it's NOT a multiplayer experience was seen by SONY as a bad PR move, and they told him to fix it..
Yeah, most of those interviews were in 2013 and 2014
Thats minimum 2 years to drop features that you didnt even realize were seen as "promises", and, with how Sony is, they likely wouldve been fucky about actively going back on those offhand comments
56:38 someone living paycheck to paycheck won't even have time and luxury to buy games, just saying lol
Ah yes, Sony and fucking up game studios, I'm glad to see the tradition still holds true to this day.
You seem like one of those people who wont give someone a second chance if they mess up. Not a very nice way to live. People make mistakes, thats how they learn, demonizing people for everything they do wrong is what divides us as a society.
Nah, I entirely disagree on him being a liar.
I don't know, I feel I am an extraordinarily (pardon my french) anal person about misunderstandings, because in general one of the things I most hate under the sun are misunderstandings. What makes them exist, their complexities, and the issues that seem to slip into people's radars about why a misunderstanding ever happened and what role they may have played into it, among other things.
Lies, as a topic, also kind of fall into that. And as far as I care, this just cannot be classified as a lie. At least, not with the information available. There is no intent to deceive, there is no misdirection, there's no omission of information; there's simply no example of truth being manipulated. There's a dude that doesn't know how to speak well, giving his ideas of what he expects should be doable regardless of whether that will happen or not, which is why he's not unilaterally saying yes or of course to everything. My biggest gripe and problem when saying this, and this extends to a lot of other things when it comes to pining the blame on people for their actions, is that this is not an excuse. It is certainly a lesser offense, because a failure to deliver is not something I'd ever put on the same ballpark as a deliberate scam (seriously, there's no other way to describe it if he had been lying on purpose). But he still screwed it up, "well it wasn't lying" shouldn't be taken immediately as a deflection of wrongdoing. You can certainly think, on a personal level, that is not as bad as I do, but blame is still blame.
Basically, what I've gathered from this video is that Ms. perfect vtuber here (who has a history with pr training) has a preconceived notion of how pr should be done without realizing pr takes a certain type of personality and tons of training. Then she refuses to set that aside to have a non biased view on things and consistently spouts how he's just a liar when almost everything hes said was never a lie just press doing what press does and twist things for thier own benefit. The only thing that was an overt lie was multiplayer.
She's also being very holier than thou with lying. I highly doubt she has never lied in her life. If she has, she is a complete hypocrite with her labeling him a compulsive liar when she doesn't understand the meaning of the term.
Basically, another im totally better than everyone else type of person that's cropped up everywhere on the internet.
Hope you learn how to have a non biased view of things in the future and learn not to stick to an argument that can be proven false easily just cause you dont want to actually pay attention to the video. Have a good day.
I liked the video... up until you started the whole "filthy liar" arc.
I think your views on people are pessimistic. I really hate your views on his struggles. He was doing something he wanted to achieve and for people to enjoy. Circumstances, or lack of experience, make plans go different ways. You calling him a pathological liar is just unfair. I couldn't finish this video. Your close minded views on him were hard to listen to.
introvert = liar
Me: ok I guess I'm a liar when my gf cheated on me~
Who hurt you, cold hearted woman?)
How about you actually HEAR the entire story before laughing
47:00 The prices of games do set expectations, but the people involved with the development of the game also set expectations. Bethesda has a fairly negative reputation, so people already expect anything they develop to be terrible. Pair that expectation with a AAA price tag, and now you have a game that people consider to be a waste of money and that it would be dumb to expect it to be anything else.
I'd agree with both Paws and you :
Game prices DID set expectations, I don't think they do anymore with triple AAA studio taking massive Ls for the last few years and most really good (or popular) games now being released at lower price points by indie studios.
But we have to remember that this was almost 10 years ago, and the game industry was very different.
I think a sticking point to me, even with how Internet Historian presented this, was that tweet about multiplayer. Sean very bluntly says it's not a multiplayer game, there's no question. The follow-up doesn't say "because…", it's not blurring the lines, it's saying that the way the game is built it so large it would be difficult to ever encounter one another aka that's why they didn't bother. People who were hyped up, intentionally mislead themselves to interpret all of that they way they WANTED to hear it, the way they wanted the game to be, instead of actually taking him at his word when he overtly said it wasn't a multiplayer game.
I don't think at any point Sean was trying to trick people. I think at every step, he was describing things that were, at that time, in the game in some form (if unfinished), or else things they were actively working on for the game. But cuts have to be made as you start to see what you can actually execute in time. You might think "well he should've come out and clarified everything he ever said about the game for the prior 3 years", but all these PR things were short distractions pulling him away from actually working on the game, which was still his full-time responsibility. He wasn't camped out in Reddit getting a feel for what people's bloated expectations were, he was head down working on the game like the other devs. It's extremely easy, from where he was positioned, to not be able to see what other people are anticipating for the game from a string of comments given over several years, to know what to correct the record on. Not until the game releases, and now everyone is going out of their way to send that feedback directly at you out of anger.
I'm not going to call him a liar, or agree with an assertion that he is one, because I don't think what he was saying was a lie when he said it, apart from maybe some stumbling responses on Colbert or somewhere else way too high above his ability to keep his head straight. That's misspeaking under pressure, where a lie requires an intent to mislead; lying means you have to be aware of what your saying and the truth of it, and I don't think panicking to reply to an interviewer without going silent to think or otherwise looking like an idiot counts.
I agree with IH. The fuck-up was presenting the game as if it were a bigger deal than it was, including the price tag. Everything else was the audience filling in blanks with every scrap they could find and then letting their imaginations run away with it. And I remember feeling that way about it at the time too, which is why I didn't pick the game up. Because just looking at it, and not taking in other people's imagination of what the game might be, what I could see of the actual game didn't look like much of anything.
Yes. Prices really do.
You have lied before, so you're a liar too...indefinitely right?
by her logic, yep.
i wonder if sean was actually lying though
because often whitin development, especially game development its very common if not standard practice to half implement all the features and then slowly polishing them up or removing them as balancing or fun determines
this is something i do in practically all my projects too and so will be honest in saying that 'yes the feature exist' even though its just the barebones skeleton, saying it didnt would be the actual lie
and the way he talks seem to indicate this because he often uses the phrase "Right now you can" which is his subconcious telling people that this is potentially a temporary feature
They still releasing new content for their 8 year old game. It's actually crazy.
Dang 53 likes? That's the most I've ever gotten! Thank ya everyone!
them and 7 days to die, it's really nice to see honestly
@pawsvtuber 7 days to die? Do you mean in Alpha Limbo for 10 years simulator? 😂 nah but for real they spent so long fine tuning its good stuff 👌
Have another like
Do you thank people in real life when they laugh at your jokes?
@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051 I do sometimes, yes.
you put a lot of bad will in this reaction against sean and hello games jeez
What I got from this reaction is that people don't know what "pathological liar" means...
Yeah it’s sad to see since the definitions of words matter. Sean was most definitely not a compulsive or obsessive liar.
I thought it just meant unhealthy lying, since I just translated it directly. And it's unhealthy not to clarify on stuff. I don't think he is a pathological liar, just a dreamer who was too excited to talk about what could be rather than what is.
@@pawsvtuber still liked your reaction Paws!^^ it was refreshing to see.
People sure do love pointing at and hating on other people for supposed moral reasons though, ESPECIALLY if it's a 100% hypocritical thing to rage about. Hence why you see some people react to this by going on rants about how Murray is "still a liar" and so on. Like this other vtuber whose name I can't remember, I thing "smug" + some name or something, who went on a psycho rant about him being an evil liar over this IH video and then insulted everyone who pointed out what she said was ridiculous in the comments.
@@dontshanonau1335 well SmugWhatsherface is literally brainless, so it's kind of expected
Most (like 90%) of the "lies" were features that were in the game at the time or that they planned to put into the game or hoped to put in the game. A bit more (about 5 to 9%) was the media taking what he did say and turning it into something more. The only flat out lie was the not meeting because it was too big instead of the truth that they had removed multi-player or had not been able to implement it yet so there was no multi-player and that is why you wont/can't meet.
Love youre reactions, but there were some L takes from you.
For example: 55:07
I love how you choose to timestamp the part where I said "I'm making an exaggerated joke" 😭 , what happened to listening to the whole paragraph instead of nitpicking on words out of context?
I was genuinely surprised by how hard Paws went into Sean here... like zero sympathy.
Like she said, it was her cynical take on it as she probably had seen stuff like this happen one too many times before, and there will always be the few with this way of thinking.
My only criticism I guess, is that in regards to "People should recognize when they aren't suited for something", I would counter that argument with a simple "Hindsight is 20/20" as it can be hard to recognize when you should do something unless you have been in that situation before and obviously this is Sean's first time being a PR head for a massively marketed game...
Anyway this is one of my favorite IH videos thanks for giving me an excuse to rewatch! :D
Wtf do you mean "they're no the good guys", did you just block the detail of them being sued most of the time they had to make the game?
Guess ill start with a disclaimer here: no hate to Paws or anyone who shares her opinions on this video but i must disagree on whether or not Sean lied.
I find it interesting how someone can watch this video and be like "well i still FEEL like he lied". Try to stay objective and if you have a background in PR or public speaking put that to the side for a moment because we're talking about someone who didn't have that experience. I'm not saying that HG didn't make mistakes, they definitely did, but i could only see one true lie from Sean and that was about the multi-player. Everything else was either misconstrued, misunderstood, or was a result of people jumping to their own conclusions and HG couldn't correct them because of sony. This video by Internet Historian is great but i especially like watching reactions to it because this video is, in part, about people jumping to their own conclusions and when people react to it we get to see peoples varying willingness to accept that their preconceived notions were wrong. Like some people will say "I've done marketing and public speaking before, it's not that hard" and I'm like, if a brain surgeon with 30 years of experience said that open brain surgery isnt that difficult because HE can do it easily what would you say to him? (Or any profession you know nothing about but you get the point.) Just because a person with experience in a field thinks that field is easy, doesn't mean that field is ACTUALLY easy.
Again; no hate or shade to anyone (i sometimes feel like i gotta say that multiple times to avoid starting a war in the comments)
Well there is another lie other than the multiplayer he says and thats about the E3 demo where he says it's a procedurally generated planet when in fact, it was a linear experience
Hundred percent agree. Like it irks me to no end whenever I hear people say its so easy. I mean if I knew what was about to happen or was well equipped and experienced then yeah the situation is manageable. But based on IH’s video Sean HAD to step up.
Christ on a bike! You have him on the Colbert show, multiple media outlets hounding him and placed center stage on E3. Movie Stars and even professionals in the PR industry have flopped in events like these. You put a technical lead with no proper comms or PR experience then yeah he’ll get eaten alive.
Did they make mistakes, absolutely. A PR lead should have been hired or Sony should have supported them more. The backlash was justified except for the death threats and stalking. Those people need help or a restraining order.
But that being said, I’m not going to pretend like I know everything that went on in the company during those times. I’m not going to assume intent or sit on a high horse, claiming I could have done a better job. I also don’t agree with just waiving off the pressure that Sean and HG faced. I think that take was a severe underestimation of how problematic that situation was, cynical view or not.
Sure trying to survive from check to check is tough, its a hellish and demoralising grind that I can attest to. But that doesn’t mean having corporate executives breathing down your neck and millions of people tearing down your image is any less difficult to deal with. I’ve seen people crack for much less. But hey if you have no sympathy for someone like that, you have the right to feel that way. No judgement.
Her biggest peeve seems to be the multi-player scandal, and that one I think she's justified. At face value, Sean absolutely lied and even seemed to double down on the lie after it was confirmed to be one. That is especially hard to forgive. That and the data-mined confirmation that the demo was scripted is also a pretty big indicator that he was lying. So, as much as we may want to forgive him for the PR nightmare, there is some degree of accountability he has to have.
But, he did lie. That's just true. Like, you can believe he made up for it later. That's a pretty sensible take. But he certainly wasn't being entirely truthful, now was he?
@@GamePlayuh9510 He hoped they could get those features in the game and overestimated what they could do and couldnt just say it wasn't happening after the press over promised based on what he said were maybes.
I am under the impression that you decided to ignore the parts of the video that clearly explain that Sean wasn't lying and decided to listen to how you felt about the story instead.
Well said, in many of her reacts I get the impression that she ignores 80% of the context around certain things and use the remaining 20% to confirm biases she already holds
It was more being incompetent at talking about the game than lying in my opinion.
Sean was inexperienced, not a liar. There's a difference between promising a feature you never planned on implementing, and talking about your vision of what you see the game being on launch months or years from now.
They were planning on adding in the features, but couldn't at the time do to time constraints and have to scrap them to prioritize important features with only 6 weeks.
Murray was at fault for being incompetent due to not having experience with pitching a game to consumers.
They are the good guys for fixing the game with no profit motive behind it, which is already something not heard of.
54:37 Well, Sony could beat their ass to hell and back if they refuse to take the interviews. Rejecting a marketing chance? Not on publisher watch
1:04:08 Nah, they finally let to shut up by their publisher Lmao
Honestly tho, everything was their fault, yes. The fault is to accept Sony as their publisher. Because when they become Sony's, they are not in control for everything that went wrong. The delay that's too short, the interviews that must hype, etc etc
There is a difference between lying and being wrong.
As stated he was a very introverted guy which couldn't deal well with pressure, heck he literally said that being in a interview like that was a nightmare for him, he literally sold his damn house to pursue his dream, is obvious that stuff that didn't end up in the game but was promised was just because he was a guy passionately talking about his dream and like internet historian said didn't understand that features planned early does not mean they would be implemented later, to make matters worse being introverted in a situation like this also causes you to have the mindset of "i not want to disappoint people with my words" which made matters even worse , not to mention of course the huge journalists and shit twisting his words and causing a bunch of misinformation all around when he tried to calm down expectations.
Not to mention that is obvious the team DID want to delay the game to make it not a disappointing failure, to give either the stuff they mentioned or different more interesting stuff but sony probably said no and just allowed the small very delay they could have, you really think that if he was a liar and just wanted to create false expectations to scam people or something else negatively, he would still be updating the game EIGHT YEARS later? especially with all of it being FOR FREE.
Personally i think even if he got a pr team, expectations were set low and etc, the game would still have ended bad thanks to sony rushing them, it would just have been less disappointing, he was not a "pathological liar" he was just a introverted guy that tried to be honest and follow expectatons of people while still trying to lower down them, but that sadly didn't knew how to handle the situation well and ended up being wrong, once more being wrong does not mean it's a lie.
I, in my opinion, dont think he's a liar as much as the media took what he said and twisted it, like with the customization in the video, but i can understand why people may see him that way
Ah, so your opinion... is the one stated in the video?
@frenchynoob basically, to be fair, im very optimistic, so, yeah, I could see how people could see him as a liar, even when he meant well and didn't intend to be seen as one
Agreed. The intent wasn’t there. He answered honestly it just didn’t work out.
A lot of it is perspective and my only real context is what was presented in this video about the situation. And ya, I can see your perspective and I mostly agree with it, media does have a way to twist words. I think Sean was a man who spoke as a passionate developer about his dream, rather than speak as a PR person about what is available. I personally consider it lying since it was never clarified (like the multiplayer ordeal), but I don't hold it over his head or hate the guy. If anything, I hope their new game succeeds from the start
"I don't excuse the lies" but that's the thing, a lot those lies were, as explained in the video, things that either were scrapped, changed or could be done at a small scale or with more time, but that's the stuff The Media amplify via clickbait while Sony locked them with a date of release a price tag and made mandatory press conferences, it wasn't that they needed to "learn to shut up" as if it was for them, the interviews wouldn't even be done or at least not at the scope they were, so keep dismissing the dude as an outright liar is unfair, the one that I would say is the big offense is the multiplayer tweet, but in the end the feature was added, so I would still classify that one in the "yeah this can be done, just needs more time" category for promised features which then technically means is not an outright lie.
Also "don't say that just because he is an introvert he is incapable of lying" wasn't what IH said, he said that the body language and speech patters of Sean are common for someone who is lying which didn't helped the situation.
I would also disagree with the position that they only did it because they had no goodwill to burn, as they had all that hype-train happening, that was the goodwill of the expectations which made the crash and burn so spectacular. I also think is important to remember that in examples for Bethesta, Blizzard, Ubisoft and the like, the talent that made those companies great has left said companies long ago, so they are burning goodwill that never actually belong to them and that's important when keeping that cynical look, because then you know from the very start what you can give the benefit of the doubt. For Bethesta and how people defend the bugs on Starfield because is Bethesta, well, there you go, the price sets an expectation but then a buggy mess is also expected from that company, and after 76, Starfield proofed that even with little goodwill, reputation and marketing can get you far, like, look at Blizzard, people are still playing Overwatch 2, even if they treat the consumers (and developers) like garbage.
Watch the interviews, you'll see how media manipulated these and spread clickbait titles for an overhyped game, fully knowing like 1% of the people who these reach will read past the headers.
Damn alot of my tubers been throwing out L takes lately
An unfortunate L take from Paws on this one.
I don't think he lied per se. Lying implies a malicious intent. He had a vision and likely talked about features he wanted to have, but due to his lack of experience in publicity or public speaking, he failed to explain the nuance of "it's one of hundreds of features that we may or may not have on release, or it may get scrapped entirely if plans change in the coming years".
Isn’t there a saying like “little white lies”? Would that be a more softer way of saying the situation?
@@rarinrecruit3150 No, what he did was say too much and fail to deliver by the deadline.
White lies refer to things you tell people to make them feel better or to have a better impression of you, but that you don't actually believe in or that aren't true. But, they're still lies.
If you say you'll meet someone in 15 minutes, but get stuck in traffic and get there in 30 minutes, are you a liar? Or are you just late?
What if i ate my mom chocolate when she asking me am telling her that i didn't . I didn't have any malicious intent so am not lying right ?
@@nabelias8991 You had the intent to hide that you did it. That's malicious.
@Ignas_ I see even if you you young didn't know right or wrong you still intent right ?
I don't expect much more than the bare minimum from reaction-based youtubers, but come on now. At some point anything stated in the video just got ignored in favour of your already formed opinion.
Honestly, liar or not, Sean and Hello Games are probably one of the GOATs of our time. Almost nobody actually sticks to their guns like they have. They said "we're gonna give them the best space game ever, even if it takes years" and haven't deviated since. Who else does that anymore? What devs, particularly smaller studios, stay with one game for as long as they have, continually improving it without asking anything in return? What other studio has that level of integrity these days?
A good person can mean different things to different people, for me personally a good person is not someone who doesnt do wrong but, but takes thier mistakes with sincerity and earnestness to do better.
Sean Murray has been working on NMS for 8 years, and i gotta ask...why? Who is he trying to do right by now? everyone who cared to, has forgiven him, or will never forgive them no matter what he does. The conclusion i come to is that he genuinely cares about what he makes, and probably would of released NMS the way he promised if he had the ability to do so.
Point is i trust Sean more than i would trust a new triple AAA studio. One is untested and Marred by capitalism, the other still a relatively Indie studio who KNOWS the dangers of overpromising to people.
And to be clear I respect your view on the matter even if people dont agree. you seem like a very principled person
I agree that Sean did lie in some instances, but I can't side with the harshaness of this take either. They didn't have the means to afford someone to do the PR for the game, so it was up to one of them to do so, could've been anyone, but Sean took one for the team. Interviews and latter articles were blown massively out of proportion, sparing no interest on what was honestly said. The OG trailer was the main problem and media was thrown into a mad dash to get the hottest newest bit about the game. When you pair all these with an outrageus way of framing questions seeking confirmation bias, you might see how a guy unexperienced and completely unprepared for facing propperly these situations flopped. With hind sight it's very easy to see what and how it went wrong, but with the preasure of leading a game launch, dealing all by yourself (bc there's no other way) with the media/PR and balancing all with your personal life I think it's just fair we concede it wasn't by any means a nice place to be in.
Things could've been done way better all along the way and that's true, but to go as hard on it... It's short-sighted and unreasinable too.
It's not a a big studio fumbling a launch due to greed, you could fit the whole HG during No Man's Sky development in a small room. Also, since the 'liberation' from their publisher, it was just up to them what to do, no third parties pressing on, just their true selfs, and they just worked and continue doing so in their passion project.
In fact, this case was, if all, a blessing in disguise. They helped set the biggest example to indie developers of what not to do in relation to PR, and since them I can't think of a better indie game scene we could've asked for, many following ont he footsteps on what was done after launch. For me it was also the moment I quit paying any atention to joirnalists and PR stunts. In fact, if a game is being so overblown on the media you just know something went horribly wrong and they are overcompensating; Cyberpunk, BF2042, and a long list of big studios releases (wich fall far far off what they could and should do)
1:02:06 yeah but also they could just have taken the money and worked on something else, you know how people are, they get mad for like two seconds and then they forget who did what / they stop caring about it, case in point "what did you expect, it's a Bethesda game" / they're like "I don't care if the company killed 6 orphans to make the game, I'm having fun :smile: "
If you're thinking "oh but this one sounds bad to have with 0 good experiences, Bethesda has Skyrim and they bought fall out" let me remind you that to this day when peter molineaux says shit, there's people who believe him, those can be new people who don't know about him, it doesn't matter, because unlike peter molineux they actually produce games, they just had to make a good one and nobody would give fuck about them being dirty liers with no remorse
1:15:00 called it
2024 and still more free updates with no paid dlc, Hello Games earned back my respect a while ago.
i sympathyse with murray a lot, i also used to just lie when i was nervous and admit to it later on, just the fear of how some percieve you is daunting and it took years for me to let go of that bad habit
But he didn't constantly tell people in interviews the features were going to be in. He said in one interview in 2013 that the game will have x feature and then implemented on the beta in 2015, saw it caused issues and scrapped it...
This is very much different from Todd Howard saying that Skyrim will have completely unlimmited quests in Skyrim in mid 2011 when he knew it was just the same 3 quests repeated constantly.
i think it's wrong to assume he had the intention of lying and taking people's money rather than to give the benefit of the doubt. He was just saying what he knew at the time at each interview, and if that happened to change down the line, it's wrong to say he did that on purpose and that he was a pathological liar. From the evidence shown, I think it supports that he wasn't trying to do that. You can blame him for being inexperienced and not knowing how to handle interviews better, but that's just unfair at that point because they were such a small team.
I don’t understand not giving it another shot. The company showed that they cared about their trash so much, that they forged a gem out of it. If that doesn’t garner respect idk what does. Much better to follow a team that gives as much of a shit as they do, than to submit to a corporation that releases a slightly better product at launch and forces you to pay extra for the rest of the game, over the course of multiple years just to milk you…
These are the devs that I want to support. Call him a liar all you want, HE DID deliver. They all did, and for free
Cmon now, if you want to said someone a liar, don't just cap it on Murray... Cap it on the whole team. Poor Murray for being always the person to take the hates.
If you want a liar, look no further than Todd from Bethesda.
Terrible take. 👎
I was wondering why you got so many dislikes and finally learned why.
Paws... If you think you can do something and end up not being able to do it... you overestimated yourself... you didn't lie...
Even by your definition... most of the stuff promised is in the game now. They still aren't liars. I think this is very crucial because I personally hate false allegations on people that are not that thing because you have a very black and white way of looking at things or just seem to underestimate (look down upon) the work it takes to build these types of games. You also seemed to know little about being an introvert.
You still lie if you OMIT details or never correct people. Letting others believe there's multiplayer when there is none is lying. The marketing for the game was not sincere and an early access product was received by consumers.
I don't see why you'd try to erase the past and change the narrative unless you think that lying makes you unforgiveable. Which is a you problem quite frankly. I find it funny that you say my perspective is black and white, yet you see lying as a black and white act. He lied, it's not the end of the world, guy doesn't deserve death threats or to never be trusted again or be cancelled for it. But the fact remains that he lied. What he did after that shows that he cared for his product and wanted to deliver on what he spoke about (his dream and ambitions). It's good for him that he didn't just cash out as many others do. Does this change that he lied? No. Does it mean he redeemed his lie? For me, there was nothing to redeem, because I don't hold a grudge over it. I didn't even know about his stories or interviews until this video, I bought the game, played it, was meh, came back years later, was fun, tried it again recently, was great. 👍
Also underestimating something and looking down upon something are two different things, if you want to insult me by saying that I am arrogant or have "superior airs" , then say it, don't mask it as something else. I know the work that goes into making these games, I've worked in the industry enough to know the hardships. But I also know the work that goes into being able to buy the games. It seems to me you don't seem to care that people who have little money were sold an incomplete product, as long as you like the person who sold it to them.
@@pawsvtuber Okay, let's talk about him "lying" about the multiplayer. How many times did he say there was NOT a multiplayer game? What was on the box of the game? How did he not OMIT or correct people even with all of that?
Now, let's talk about lying. Lying is when you say something knowing that it is false. He did not do that. He believed they could get it in the game by release. It's an overestimation of your abilities... but it is NOT lying. If you say today, "I will put a video out tomorrow," and then you get sick and can't put out that video... you didn't lie. That's my point. That's different from you knowing that you wouldn't put a video out tomorrow.
For you... that would be lying. You assume the worst when the truth could be a lot more nuanced. That's why I called your logic black and white.
You're jumping to a lot of conclusions when it comes to my critiques, I watch your videos all the time and I like you. I would never say something like you're "arrogant" but possibly misunderstanding how working on a game works, looking down upon it or underestimating the work. They were still a very indie game developer at the time. Underestimate or looked down upon wasn't meant to mean the same thing... I was suggesting that you may have been doing either. I didn't type it clear so that's on me. Maybe I came off too aggressive and I didn't mean for it to be that potent.
I dunno how this got to me not appreciating the money spent to buy games. I was just trying to correct that he didn't lie, he overestimated their abilities. I think it's pretty proven because he did get the features in the game. The point was that you were wrong about him deliberately lying.
While I disagree with some of your points and think you went way too hard
1- Sony would of forced someone to do PR on the team - He was most likely the only one really available to do it, there is a good chance Sony scheduled the interviews for him
2 - A lot of his lies were not lies , looking back at a lot of old interviews most of the features were NEVER confirmed just a lot of maybes , yet most of them were reported as confirmed
3- He is a liar , just not a pathological one, I can count two big lies, The Demo and there being Multiplayer at launch (I see it as a more of a cover up)
Also that one chatter always has a massive hateboner for whatever your watching lol kind of annoying
There is always that one really obnoxious person in chat.
If it's that Excel whatever person, they had such an insufferable hate boner for Sean it's wild.
@@Racerboy215 That person is just a miserable prick in general. I've seen several of Paws videos where Excel is just being a miserable hateful person about whatever Paws is reacting to.
Personally, I'm not really concerned about whether he was lying or not, although I will say I don't think his actions were malicious.
More so I think he failed to set proper expectations, and then to manage those expectations as the situation developed. In the absense of specificity people will usually create their own expectations, and when those expectations aren't met, that person is 'lied to', regardless of the original intentions.
Gotta say her constantly calling a him a pathological lier is pretty rude and disheartening to repeatedly hear.. every time the internet historian video showed why things happened the way they did in regards to his interviews she says i feel bad for him but then craps on him in the same sentence, taking too very opportunity to call him a lier and laugh about it...not exactly a great way of presenting yourself as a streamer... unless she's just always like this?
The end of the video, you said you wanted to read more fan fiction. Lucky you, internet historian animated the fan fiction My Immortal. I think you would enjoy watching it on the stream
The funniest part of this video to me is that they had to remove a feature from the game because people were too dumb to figure out how planetary rotation works.
As i see it i don't think sean lied at the times when he did the interviews. But that might because it happens all the time in the field i work in. I'm a mechanic in a military equipment company and the things that the ceo promises aren't talked about with the engeneers first. So it often happens that something gets "promised" and we do actually integrate it in to the prototyp but the next meeting something else gets added in and that thing causes something from befor to not work anymore. So it wasn't a lie when he said it, but it became a lie later. For example with the planet rotating around its axis. It was in the game but they had to take it out because players reported it as a bug. I do however think they should have communicated better what the game currently can and can't do. When they took out a feature they should have told the public that they did and why they did it.
Yes he should have known that he wasn't the right guy to do the interviews but they might not have had the budget to hire someone for pr. And when you work with a big publisher you also can't not give interviews because the contract probably demands a certain level of pr around the game espacially if the publisher features it as a main title like it happened with no mans sky
They are the good guys because they have no pay2win and they have no loot box and they have no battle pass.
He did lie, a prime example being the multiplayer part. But calling him a pathological liar isn't quite right. He was foolish, but not malicious. I would say the majority of the missing features lies are from his vision of the game and how the crowd immediately assumes whatever he says is a guarantee promise. The majority of the problem stems from inexperience (the interviews), signing up for Sony without realizing they are forced into a tight schedule, and some panicked effort to stall for time (actual lie about multiplayer). A lot of the damage was caused by the internet and journos.
At the end of the day, dude isn't a bad guy out for your money. He just messed up big time (inexperience + stricter schedule = become lies). The important part is the intent of the person. They apologized, went back to fix their mistakes, and delivered a satisfying product. That's more than okay to me.
True, what I wanted to say with the lying part is that it felt like he was lying to cover his ass instead of clarifying things (like the multiplayer part, as you mentioned). For me, English isn't my first language, pathological just means unhealthy, so when I read the chat comment, I agreed since it is unhealthy lying, it doesn't do him any favors to not clarify. I don't hate the guy, I also never knew about him or the interviews personally. He did mess up big time, but also I'd blame Sony more for not providing an actual PR team.
@@pawsvtuber Pathological liar is a very specific term, I'm not a native speaker either, but I kinda understand that it means someone that lie and manipulate others constantly, like someone who can't live without lying. I think this is what rubs people the wrong way about your reaction.
So something else you have to keep in mind about him constantly doing interviews is that he didnt really have the choice of whether or not to walk away from the interviews sony kinda forced it onto him then shoved him under the bus when things went south thus not tarnishing their own reputation
You have a very werid understanding on of the word "liar"
imo they're the good guys
You have quite a cynical view of the world. Yikes.
I think you were a bit too harsh in a few points but i appreciate that you were at least open to the fact that he was willing to improve the game honestly and sincerely.
Really shows they weren't huge liars if they were willing to do everything else for free, they just needed time to put it all off. The multiplayer tweet thing is the most iffy part.
I cant believe i watched almost the whole video for such an L take. How do you call it lying and then doubling it down when in fact all of the features were planned to be on the game? You even said they underestimated and they dont know the market. Is it their fault for telling it despite not knowing the hurdles? Is it even lying?
The real evidence here that they werent lying was the fact that they did deliver all of their promises and more. It's like saying "see we didnt lie, we just have dont have the time and resources back then" i feel sad for IH and for Hello Games for your take. I hope this wouldn't get traction.
unrelated to the IH video and what anyone concludes (it's fine to like or dislike HG), this reaction is something else...
full of edgy statements that are contradicted minutes later, expecting unreasonable things that are straight up hypocritical and make her sound childish and arrogant, even if she were as flawless as she projects to be here. maybe she just channeled the abyss of twitch chat because i am astonished that someone actually thinks this way, or maybe talking like that simply results in more clicks, idk but it's kinda distrubing to listen to.
Also i'm sorry but the "don't hold introverted people as people that can't handle those types of situations" fucking piss me off.
I'm literally a introverted, and i'm telling you that if i was there on shawn place, me looking at the guy face at all would been a miracle, SOME INTROVERTED PEOPLE REALLY CAN'T HANDLE THOSE TYPES OF SITUATIONS, yes there is exceptions everywhere, but they're not the rule.
It's easy to say "you should have acted like this on that situation" when you're not the one suffering through it on real time.
Calling someone a pathological liar and then proceeding to ignore everything else that states the contrary just to hold a bias. Toxic much?
Doubling down when the video said they could've gotten away with all the money they've earned. Saying things like "its their job to fix the game blah blah blah" No dimwit. She even said in one of the comments here that it is awful to buy an unfinished game and saw the fall of 76 video; the game developer has NO OBLIGATION to fix their game or deliver what they promised after profiting. 🤦♂️
Watching this one after the Fallout 76 one truly is a wild ride.
Honestly i just think if they had time they would've been actually able to put those things in.
But hey Sean is a liar.
I wasn't there when they were in a badlight but I feel like time has more than told that they are good people it's been 8 years since launch and they continue to give free massive updates, I don't feel like they have anymore to prove
I think a lot of people forget that back in the time when No Man’s Sky was coming out AAA games actually had standards beyond cash grab.
The only outright lie he said was still not clearly saying multiplayer even after the game was out, which was bad. He should have just bluntly told players multiplayer was cut for the time.
Everything else checks out for me as not lying in the interviews, just a combination of game journalism and the pains of developing a game for a big publisher while being an indie.
You need to be more conscious of using extreme terms like claiming he's a pathological liar. He did lie about some things, whatever his intentions were or what circumstances existed. Calling him a pathological liar, however, is unfair and comes across not as hyperbole for a joke but as a genuine accusation.
He was basically blackmailed by Sony to lie.
Tough to hate him with that context.
just another holier-than-thou yapper
She must have gotten like, legit conned or something at some point in her life to be going so hard on Sean even after I think IH made a pretty good case for him. Like saying "he's a pathological liar" WOAH, slow down with the armchair diagnoses, Paws.
I honestly don't understand why she still sees Sean as a liar. Simply put, if I myself think and want to have some features in my game, but am forced to release the game early, that's not lying. It's the early release that's the main problem. At least that's how I see it, and I feel like most of the people who wantech and reacted to this video do as well. Just because I myself believe something that isn't true doesn't mean I'm lying about the subject matter. Especially if I follow through on all my promises, which Hello Games eventually did.
You should see Internet Historian's My Immortal :D
I think that when he said that its not multiplayer because its too big, he meant that as in "we didn't make it multiplayer because the world is too big anyway". He didn't contradict himself, he just gave an excuse as to why they didn't put multiplayer in. Which doesn't make it any better really but i think that is what he meant with those tweets. I could be wrong tho
This is sidetracking but also relevant to a field we're familiar with -
Notice something about their redemption strat? It's the same thing with corporate vtuber situations. It's the reason I do not condone giving the masses information when the company is resolving issues silently bts -
People _will_ take your updates and skew it to create more outrage and false narratives instead.
Stay quiet, keep going, but let the system/company resolve the situation, and then everyone can open their windows and breathe once a resolution or plan has been laid out for everyone to stand on two feet again.
I think you are absolutely 100 percent wrong on this one. A liar would have taken the money and run, Sean failed, those are two different things.
Compare NMS and the whole story of how it went from launch to today ....
to how Concord was handled, from launch to now.
After that ... try to appreciate the sheer SIZE of balls needed to keep a disappointing game on the market, when CLEARLY the option to pull the game, is available.
So given that perspective, NMS looks even BETTER by comparison to specifically Concord.
unless the interview question asked if the feature would be in the game at launch sean wouldnt technically be lying as long as they added the feature in the game later.
And if someone is a liar or not is pretty much irrelevant as every single person capable of thought has lied at somepoint.
There is also a difference between lying on purpose and lying because you dont know something for sure yet. I dont think sean lied on purpose in this case