@@notcorrectwell Linux PC can have a bunch of different configurations while a Steam Deck is mostly the same besides the LCD and OLED version having different components but mostly run the same thing.
Right now, I don't have a problem with game developers testing that their game works with Proton and not providing a native Linux version. This is because Linux has only a 2% share of the market and Proton is currently the best way of increasing Linux market share without causing a lot of extra work for game devs. I do have an issue with new games releasing with a Windows and macOS version and not a Linux version though because there are now more Linux gamers on Steam than macOS gamers. Once Linux market share rises, we may indeed start to see more native Linux versions - it's very important that all the popular game engines fully support Linux (including any third-party plugins) otherwise we will indeed be stuck with Proton running Windows-only releases for a long time.
I think MS will be helping Linux gaming out pretty soon with the announcement of their Copilot program that will be logging everything you do on your PC... I for one am working on and getting comfy with Kubuntu at the moment on my gaming rig (games work great btw) and plan on moving over to Linux on my other systems soon. Win11, the trainwreck that it is, is now reduced to a VirtualBox window for me, where it belongs.
@@MrNickpeck36 Vista, 8 and 11 were fine with you up until now. Sad thing is people will tolerate garbage for so long and they'll tolerate more than even you because of ignorance or it being so much trouble for some to backup everything and install a different OS.
@@MrNickpeck36 Huh I didn't think of that. Thankfully I only use Windows in my works laptop. Personally I have a Steam Deck and use Apple products. Will be interesting to see if they allow companies to ditch copilot on business computers as I doubt they'll be comfortable with it recording every single thing their employees do!
The native ports will come back as Linux gaming hardware becomes yet more mainstream and developers have a practical reason for doing so. In the short term, I don't really see what's in it for the developers, especially when our archaic methods for handling libraries makes old stuff break all the time. I actually enjoy the fact that I'm running software I'm not supposed to -- it's a subversive thrill.
The thing is Proton being as good as it is also makes native linux support obsolete for at the very least fully offline games So proton support as a whole can freely replace native linux support
@@V2ULTRAKill Pretty much, but we'd all rather not say it out loud. ;-) I believe Microsoft want to move away from Windows, but I think their ageing platform has now become a kind of lingua franca, where we can use it as an intermediary language between different platforms. Does that mean _we_ did embrace, extend, extinguish?
Why wouldn't devs use Proton? They struggle to optimize for Windows, so adding Linux is more work, money, and support for a tiny number of people. Even if Linux gains market share, I don't see the major developers making native ports. They will just test Proton instead of leaving it to Valve to patch.
Not support for linux is not easy answer. There are many distros. I can guess it a lot of work? Arch Linux, Debian, ubuntu and others common popular. But I can guess it the HMDI there protection as it not update anymore. Well there is graphics drivers as well. It hard to trouble shoot when doing vulkan support. Example small pc or small boards. Just for got there is Arm and smart phone chips. It a lot of work. As people are crazy do some port all devices is not easy task and cost time and money.
funfact: Hotline Miami's Linux port is "double-native" - orginally they used GameMaker on Windows, which run internal game logic via interpreted scripts, but for Linux they made a pure C++ port just like Hotline Miami 2! It performs way better than the original Windows version.
Jonathan Blow, Braid dev, said that Linux and MacOS ports for Braid Anniversary Edition will come out, but later. Unless his plans have changed, of course.
90% of "native" games were just the Windows version put in a Wine wrapper. All that really changed is that the compatibility layer moved from being in the game, to Steam itself.
And running them these days is a mixed bag, often requiring workarounds just to run a version that never got any updates at worse performance than just forcing Proton will give you.
First class proton support would be nice but at least my game of choice, wow, was problematic to run smoothly. Sometimes it worked great, sometimes it stuttered badly.. and I doubt blizzard will invest any resources to make sure wow runs on proton well from one update to another. Debugging seems like it would be difficult if not impossible and you're talking a lot of added complexity to support the various ways it could be run. I suspect my issue is with my 12th Gen Intel p vs e cores but couldn't resolve by limiting to 6 or 12 cores within lutris so... Back to windows for me. Which "just works"
It's not perfect, but I do appreciate that some games run better in Linux than on Windows, even if it is just Windows emulation. For example, Grid runs better on Linux than Windows, despite being made for Windows. Although I could only get that game to run flawlessly on Win7, Win 10 and 11 would constantly crash after a few minutes and the developers weren't interested in fixing it.
@@qunas101I doubt it very much. It may still be the case that developers, even if using something like Unity, sometimes opt to wrap it that way anyway, but I find it dubious that 90% is accurate.
I honestly don't mind as long as I can play the game. And in my experience, playing via Proton is actually BETTER than playing some native ports. Because those are often broken or their support is dropped at some point and then you'll be using Proton anyway.
Honestly dropping native Linux support can be a real issue, I can see many publishers taking advantage of this to deny support service to there games as they can claim they never designed it for Linux so they can't provide support for the game (EA has done this already in the past). Plus it just allows companies to cut corners figuring someone else will get game running, or worse when the publisher decides to use an evasive DRM or Anti cheat tool that breaks compatibility tools.
The problem with native support is the ever changing Linux environment. A lot of games that had native support just doesn't work with new kernel versions, Saints Row Gat out of Hell, for example. Not only that, but proton games tend for some reason to perform better than the native versions
@@MrTcmartins I stated that it would allow companies to not provide support and gave an example. That doesn't mean that all companies don't provide support.
I don't care if its no longer native support for linux as long they make have "native proton support" because if optimize the game for proton then its native linux for me.
@@The-Cat thats untrue In fact, even without native proton support, running proton generally outperforms windows due to how efficient proton itself is, and how inefficient windows is with its inbuilt bloatware Native proton games generally run significantly better, and brute forced average equal to 5fps higher same settings
Linux support is just too messy,too many dependency issues. This is a nightmare already. Let's be honest here....now Linux support better windows apps than native ones...and i don't know what to think about it.
If a game works like it was native through Proton, then does it matter if it's not native? Sure, Proton is an extra step in the way of best performance, but to be honest it can work just as good as if it was native. If Proton was paywalled, then it would be a bigger deal, but I think it's fine if a dev only offer great Proton support instead of native since you can use it even without Steam.
When the Steam Deck first launched, Valve themselves actually recommended developers to use Proton over native Linux ports. I know it disgusted many Linux die-hards, but It simply makes more sense to support one build of the game rather than two native builds. It costs publishers less to maintain one release branch - they do not need developers with as much Linux specific expertise, and let's face it, the Linux versions are often forgotten and don't get the same updates, fixes, and TLC as the Windows versions do. Getting Over it with Bennett Foddy is one example - the end game reward did not work on the Linux version last I looked. Also Blasphemous had delayed free DLC releases for Linux, and cloud saves never worked between Windows and Linux ports of the game. The Games Kitchen certainly also realized this, as Blasphemous 2 does not even have a native Linux port. For me, forcing both games to use Proton instead just works with no fuss. Valve often has Proton fixes for games before publishers do, and so long as they keep Proton fully funded, there's no reason not to let publishers at best do some Proton testing. I get the concept and principle of heralding Linux native ports, but in reality it just works better with one version. With Vulcan, and Proton, I can see a future where games may not even run native on Windows anymore, but in a platform agnostic environment, perhaps something like Proton in Windows itself. It certainly increases compatibility with older games to have a highly compatible translation layer.
becouse valve tried with steam machine to push for native games. most devs just took wine and called it a port and normaly done terribly with the wine api itsself lacking as well. it failed hard. companys would also get crap hardware as well raise the price and slap steam machine on it. so valve learned from that. they nedded to controle the hardware and they nedded to help the wine project get good becouse game companys are not going to get off microsofts dick without a fight.
I have a Mac, and I'm curious how it has become "harder and harder to sideload software". I have 3 or 4 apps from the app store, and the rest are "sideloaded" and I didn't find it difficult in the slightest. This includes running a lot of Unix CLI apps through homebrew. There are a lot of annoying one-time access prompts, but app store mac apps aren't immune from that so it's not a sideloading difficulty. The process for "sideloading" apps on an Mac is the same as it has been for 20+ years.
the real answer (haven't watched the full ep yet, but the answer is obvious) is that thanks to proton, linux gamers get near or even better framerates than native windows gamers. As long as you give first class proton support, why would you want to fight for linux support? until linux' own infrastructure improves (and/or it becomes actually more popular) then unless you have the chance and see a noticeable improvement in native support (which now you really usually won't), why bother? it's not that linux isn't worth it, it's that proton is _so good_. this is something to be proud of, and I am eternally grateful that wine and proton have come so far.
I switched my home PC to linux (Garuda, but I still run a custom built kernal for gaming) all AMD and I get better performance in Linux than windows. Refuse to go back to windows at this point because the linux gaming community thanks to the deck has exploded.
Honestly, I'd rather have a first class Proton experience. It's basically the Windows version, that gets the Windows updates and extras on the same day (or at worst, a few days later if it breaks Proton day one.) Any port that isn't Windows or Console is going to be on the "Back Burner", even a Windows port can be bad, so why would I want a port a year later from a over worked team of maybe 10 people or fewer with minimum support? If it isn't broke, don't fix it.
I wouldn't say that Linux's infrastructure is lacking in any sort of way, it's just always evolving, unlike Windows, which has remained fairly the same under the hood since the switch from DOS to NT. Linux is in a constant state of change, which makes it difficult for corporations selling long-term products to keep up and leads to legacy software getting left behind unsupported.
@@Dr-CthulhuOfRlyehThe only way I could ever see making a native Linux version of a game as being a good idea would be if Windows died completely like I'm talking where it's market share would have to be in heavily last place. I'm talking something like less than 30% of PC users are on Windows type of deal. I think the death of Windows 10 will increase the Linux community user count but not buy enough to make it worth it.
In my experience, games on Proton more often works better than the native Linux version of a game. I can see game developers dropping Linux support if putting a bunch of work into it still doesn't get you as well as what you get from Proton.
I think it is better this way because I had few games which had native Linux Support, BUT the versions of the games would be different in Windows AND Linux, so when I played in one of those OS I would advance on the game, only to realize when trying to continue it on the other OS that the SAV versions were different and thus NOT COMPATIBLE most of the time (mainly when playing from the higher version in Windows to the lower version on Linux). Being able to configure everything as a same "Windows Version" but perfect Proton Support is way better IMHO these days, can't stress enough how much Valve has done for us gaming in Linux with the Steam Deck
Agreed. I hope Valve gets more people to work on Proton so more support comes faster down the road. I say this because with the direction MS is taking Windows, I have a feeling a big influx of Linux users will be coming lol. Valve has done an amazing job with Proton and I hope they can keep growing it.
I think it's a good thing if they stop with native support and instead start to work on their games instead saying you need to have photon version so and so. That way instead of making some one have to windows, mac or linux, they will instead have to have a machine that can run the version of photon that the game needs.
Jonathan Blow (the original creator/developer) said on his stream that Linux and macOS builds of Braid: Anniversary Edition are going to be coming down the line.
@@seansretroverse9082 True, though in this case, he said something along the lines of "there are just a few issues to be ironed out". They ported the game to iOS and is on Netflix as well, so they're definitely committed to bringing the game to other platforms.
@@seansretroverse9082 well if we could convert more people to Linux and get them to understand the spyware free performance boost in Linux is, we'd never have to worry about this "later down the line" problem.
Proton has kind of made everything better. I remember leaving a game to run natively with Linux and the save location is different so until I fetch it, I cannot use that save on my windows install. Not every game does that but if something as simple as a proton install can give you the leisure of never needing to worry about that again, then it's probably worth ignoring. As it is, I do feel like the bigger task is using proton on Windows since they've dropped support for so many operating systems this year. There are a few games that don't work well with modern windows and are delisted so devs and publishers have no reason to keep the game current.
the steam deck brought a whole handful of normies to Linux. for once I am happy some normies are in the picture, because normies bring demand. No one really ever cares what the weirdos want. proud weirdo, and I completely understand.
Yeah, calling them that is not a good idea. Most people already dislike the Linux community because they come across as abusive partners in a strange relationship. General users would be better.
@@V1CT1MIZED language police over here!! nah, im a weirdo, and to me they are normies. if that language makes them all sad, or bothered, then they are lost already and probably are mac users or something so it doesnt apply anyways. the normies have been calling us names our whole lives. at least normie is not really all that mean in comparison. I am sure they are strong enough to know they are basic. lol the world revolves around them typically. linux as i know it will never go away. I am not worried if the normies stay or go. just happy we can use them while they are around.
The PS5 runs a custom version of BSD, so porting to general Linux shouldn't be that difficult. I can see where supporting every distro can be resource-intensive. Then there's the ever-changing Linux landscape like the adoption of Wayland and the nightmare that can be video drivers. Simplifying support to Windows and consoles allows them the ability to pool resources into the actual game. I don't like it, but I understand it.
but console have a pre set hardware that never changes. in pc you use a mix os hardware brands. this is the major problem of PC worst than dealing with OS. thats why drivers exists
@@ryonagana Because it's BSD-based, I guarantee drivers exist in the PS5 OS. Replace those drivers and it can run on other hardware. BSD is versatile, but driver support is lacking. Drivers exist so we don't have to recompile the kernel after changing hardware. What you see as a problem for PC, isn't an issue. It's a strength. If I want to upgrade my CPU or GPU, I can. If I want a performance boost, I can change both the CPU and GPU and have a marked difference in gameplay and productivity. You can't do that on console.
Last week I had dropped a demo on Steam which was the Windows version, and it just ran on the Steam Deck without changing compatibility. It just works!!
Proton and Native don't seem that different since the only real difference is the layer for both ports since Proton support can also be implemented to the Windows port as well, making it easier to implement for Linux. There's definitely going to be Mac and Linux demands for better and broader support for both tools and games though now that Windows Recall is in the newest updates of WIndows
As long as Proton is open source, it's fine. If Valve ever decides to pull a Redis, then we're f*. That means the entire ecosystem depends on Valve's good will.
Yeah people cry about Microsoft but are happy to jump into bed with another corpo that could turn on us whenever they please. At least Microsoft only have the desktop PC in their grip. Valve could end up with not only PC gaming but the OS too. Which is even worse.
@@V1CT1MIZED I'm surprised so few people look at Valve and Proton through a critical lens. Their work with Wine is amazing, but they're still doing it for profit at the end of the day. Which explains why Proton can't run without Steam
@@pacifico4999 exactly. Valve aren't doing this for Linux users, it's for profit. They released proton a few years before the deck launch so people would beta test it for free. Obviously this has a side effect of benefiting Linux gamers, but it wasn't done for Linux gamers. I honestly think more people care about hating Microsoft than they do FOSS.
Proton killed native Linux support. As a game dev, why would you pay extra for a native Linux version when everyone can run the game on Linux using Proton? The big issue going forward is going to be the embracing of kernel level anti-cheat systems by game studios that will stop games working on Proton.
The only thing I’m worried about with games dropping native Linux support is if proton dies tomorrow which would sound like a possibility on windows but probably would never happen on Linux. Because it’s open source. Fellas can add to it modify it and make the design uniform so that it works just right which sounds perfect to me. If you really want the native Linux port just got to gog dude
Proton is based on Wine, and Wine feeds back into Proton, and Proton feeds back into Wine. There's no way to kill Proton -- it'll just be assimilated bit-by-bit into Wine.
The only thing I'm worried about is Windows 11 or 12 implementing something bad into msbuild that heavily violates privacy or breaks anything not running native windows aa part of "security" or something.
I paused the video after the intro to purchase Dudelings. I must have missed the announcement video. Well, I guess this way I don't have to worry about missing the giveaway either 😆
IDK why people don't understand native Linux games ARE NOT FEASIBLE, which has been tried 20 years ago and failed. The problem is ALL SOFTWARE must be freaking recompiled for every single OS update, and this is not possible for closed source. Linux dependencies are absolute trash for backwards compatibility, and they DON'T CARE to fix this. Flat pack is a modern workaround, but it's also pure bloat, and not 100% future proof. It's way easier to make a Windows version, and let the Linux compatibility layer do it's job, and also get it's own independent performance updates. Windows itself is a decade ahead of Linux feature support, with things like Wayland being beta. It's massively more efficient to emulate windows and let Linux do it's own feature progress independently than tying a game to outdated runtimes. This is also what every single Linux tuber blatantly omits when talking about Linux. They ALL showcase their distro by showing a DESKTOP THEME, instead of telling you what the OS can actually do, usually because their distro is outdated, and you should be running a rolling release distro instead of Debian stable. Those old distros are not meant to run on modern hardware, and while they run, you won't get full support for your hardware. Linux is also not truly open source, as most of the distros behave like a collection of dictatorships. Ubuntu for instance is run by a billionaire, and red hat is purely corporate. Most of them have zero interest in being a viable alternative to Windows, and their infighting hinders progress. This is why Arch has the biggest support from enthusiasts, and Valve created it's own distro, which locks software into flat pack, so the software doesn't break things. Valve is basically hiding how broken the OS is, and deck users think "oh this is like Windows", when it's nothing like it.
You're wrong, native support is perfectly feasible. Factorio managed to do it. The dependencies support is an old argument. Valve has made it extremely easy for games to be ported by fixing this issue, just target steam libraries and this issue is wholly fixed. And also, there's this thing called appimage that also solves this issue, but unfortunately it isn't well used. For the rest of it I agree, it is easier to just let wine do it's thing.
Tbh I think I much prefer proton any way because rather we want to admit it or not supporting a native Linux game is was more work then windows just due to the constant change Linux goes through.. with proton as long as proton runs on your system then games will that run through it will. we just need to get over ourselves and realize the amount off work to support native games that are not opensource games is way too much compared to our market size.. lost count of how many native games I have that I now play the game through proton because the performance is WAY better and two the native versions don't even work anymore without work arounds.
They are dropping support because Microsoft feels threatened. And they have control over the gaming companies. They already know that people are flocking to Linux.
Also the reality is, some games that are verified have issues, some of Steams own features like broadcasting doesn't work. Updates and progress have been slow 2 and half years since the release of the deck aside from the bug that was fixed, which caused issues with Switch emulation. i struggle to remember any notable updates.. yay we can increase vibrancy now which a plugin could already do.. Even content creators don't bother to cover the minimum, fixes anymore, instead we get "games dropping linux support" the fact is, games rarely supported linux or cares even before the Steam deck. As a games developer, why would you? Steams stats are made public. Many games devs whos released games on Linux said it's not worth it. And i understand some fanboys might get upset by my comment but you can ignore my comment same as you do facts.
Seeing as there is generally a stable update of the Steam Deck client once a month and there's a SteamOS upgrade once a quarter, I'd say the pace of development and innovation is strong. Valve *doesn't* make Steam's metrics public. Instead, the hardware survey results publish relative numbers. So what percentage of the hardware survey respondents had X hardware or Y software. We don't have any hard numbers for monthly active Steam users. We don't have total units sold for the Deck. The reality is, the Deck is the first stepping stone to a PC gaming ecosystem that's free from the meddling, cancerous reach of Microsoft. It's not perfect, but it's getting there.
@gardiner_bryant Innovation? The only innovation since the launch required you to purchase a new OLED Steam Deck. I have the OLED and an Aya Neo. While Windows sucks on the Aya Neo because of the form factor, more games work, and I've had zero software issues. My Deck always has some kind of problem, the most recent being that it won't boot, and I have to hard reset it. Or it takes ages for it to connect to my 6 GHz Wi-Fi network when other devices, including the Aya Neo, don't. Not a good look.
@@gardiner_bryant please consider making a video on where the steam deck needs to improve. I dont consider it a stepping stone into pc gaming, because people have done that with laptops and prebuilts. it's more of a stepping stone into using linux but the average consumer doesn't care about that. It needs to be better than windows and to simply say its faster. it doesn't matter if half your games don't work correctly or require some tweaks in desktop mode.
What happens if one day Valve becomes one of the bad guys or gets bought out, or goes out of business? Proton is created by Valve. What happens if future versions of Windows find a way to lock games to their OS with some kind of BS “security” check that renders Windows games unplayable on Linux. What about a future game store on Linux that doesn’t use Proton? This seems bad in a lot of scenarios. Windows having a monopoly on PC game development is not a good path for consumers. Another potential area for consumers to get locked into Windows even if more people start realizing they don’t want Windows as they keep adding in more advertising and spyware. But they have no choice because there are no alternatives.
I haven't had a working Windows PC for years, but I am perfectly fine with games supporting Proton but not native Linux. When a native Linux version is available, the Windows version on Proton often runs better anyway. Moreover, there is a tendency that Linux games stop working after a while due to changes in Linux. This is no different than what happens with Windows games; however, for Windows games you can just run them on an old version of Proton. For Linux it gets far more complicated, if it's even possible.
Linux support means incurring 100% additional support costs for 3% additional users (tops). Just not worth it. Plus, the developer tools on Windows are so, so much better. Until Linux gets the equivalent of Visual Studio (esp. its integrated debugger), it's a nonstarter.
It's all semantics. At the end of the day, Proton is a library, so what's the difference whether it's using the proton library or the SDL library. I have no issue with developers using proton instead of a 'native' linux port (whatever that means) - it makes sense with all the different linux distros out there.
If Proton becomes the docker of gaming I'm all for it, game compatibility breaks even between Windows releases and need tweaking a compatibility layer that could almost act like a virtual environment with minimal performance downgrade would be a game changer and simplify game development.
About the first topic: I agree, in the end I don't really care *How* a game is running on Linux, but that it actually does. Then it doesn't matter if its native or through proton, as long as it works well. In fact if the devs keep proton specifically in mind, that means they can focus on updating the game without wasting resources on a port that then wouldn't be updated later / as quickly.
Hi! I bought dudelings, mostly because I wanted to give you support, but honestly, it didn't jive with me , I'll keep trying tho. I think a video tutorial would be helpful? Keep up the good work man!😊
So, can you get some facts straight? I am with you that Apple is restrictive, but with MacOS - you mentioned that it's "getting harder and harder to side load." Ummm, since when? Apple has made zero moves in restricting (or even making things "harder") to side load. In fact most Mac users, barely use the Mac App Store. Again, I am with you on Apple's extreme restrictiveness, but at least get your facts correct.
As someone who has looked into publishing my game for macOS, I can tell you that the burden Apple places on the developer is just too damned high and it's not worth it.
I preffer games support wine/proton than support Linux directly 'cause theoretically proton will not change more than Linux stuff do (specially Gnome and their stupid decisions).
Damn I remember playing the demo of braid on the 360 and thinking it was cool but I never ended up purchasing it Yes that's how long ago we're talking about.
definitely a hot take, but it makes sense (at least for now). hopefully the linux market share will grow enough for devs to see linux as a more essential platform. good on the Braid devs to take extra care with their linux-friendly-windows-only approach.
it has grown its at like 5% now. it was at 2% forever. steamdeck relly pushed it and with windows 11 pretty mutch being you'r personal fbi agent now i think wee will see another surge.
Native support is conceptually counter to foss. Program your game nicely and it will find itself compatible with people's computers, and some of them may feel like paying
Some of you live in a dream world if you think people can work for free with only occasional donations. This is why most FOSS software is garbage compared to proprietary software, and the successful FOSS projects like Blender get sponsored by corporations.
I have been a linux advocate since the 90's. I have been professionally using linux since the 90's. I advice any publisher to focus only on proton. Not on windows, not on linux. They both get covered by proton. Make sure it works on proton, unless you are big enough or are 31337 enough to be a linux first game shop. As test I do advice an investment in a steam deck. As a matter of fact, I use my steam deck for 100% of my work, so it can never be seen as a bad investment.
We just need valve to release steam os for desktop PCs. Then hopefully more devs would jump on. Atm there no reason to make and support Linux version. I really wish I knew why official steam os hasn’t come pc yet. Some ppl say it’s cus anti consumer of Nvidia driver for Linux are horrible. others say GTX/RTX driver are starting get decent now. Ms has bullied out all other OS in mid 90’s except Mac OS and Linux. Ms has strangle hold on pc market. So of course devs are only going target window, Cus that is where majority of pc gamers are on. If that ever changes. Then hopefully we’d see more devs target steam os or Linux. Thanks Proton (Vulkan.Api) and steam deck has make gaming on Linux better.
@@V1CT1MIZED It’s way better now then what it was few yrs ago. I tired HaloISO few years ago and game mode was buggy as hell. At it was on my 2700x/16GB/1080ti/ssd. But of course that wasn’t the official version. I think that was ver 3.1 ish? There on v3.5 something now. Of course Nvidia gtx drivers were horrible then. You don’t see Microsoft pushing bug fixes or updates on weekly, sometime they doing updates every couple of days. Ms has NEVER done that. To say steam os is bad is bs. I suspect they getting mobile experience to be really good/very optimize. Then they start work on desktop version for steam os. And I hope Valve will have decent GTX/RTX drivers.
I want native linux ports because I want to see a linux port that is very optimized on linux to get the best performance and to see how that compares to the windows version. Also I don't think the libraries changing and breaking games will be an issue. Non-steam games should use Flatpak and Steam games can use Steam Linux Runtime (basically flatpak). I believe immutable distros are the future for normal users anyways, and flatpaks have the advantage of compatibility on any system
I have been an avid Linux gamer for 15+ years. Well before Valve released Steam for Linux. Many of my earliest purchases of native Linux games have ceased to function because of outdated dependencies. Even games I reviewed early on in my channel no longer work despite the Steam Linux Runtime. Furthermore, most game devs don't have the staff with the know-how to optimize their Linux ports to the same level of their Windows client and they couldn't justify the exorbitant cost of hiring sysadmins with the requisite skills... Especially when you consider that those folks could make more money doing similar work for hardware vendors developing drivers or fill other such positions. Economically, it just doesn't make sense for most studios to release a native Linux build unless the engine they're using handles all the heavy lifting for them.
@@gardiner_bryant I know it doesn't make sense economically right now. I was just stating my "wish list". However, Linux market share is growing, and with a general SteamOS release we could see a lot more people using Linux as their gaming device, whether it be a handheld or desktop. I have some games that have Linux native ports, and some only work when using the Steam linux runtime, however performance is sometimes way worse than the Windows version (Borderlands). I also think games would need to "target" the SLR dependencies to maintain compatibility, but don't quote me on that. I've been around since Ubuntu 10.10, and I know how terrible gaming was back then before steam even had a Linux client. So proton is absolutely amazing. I'm just thinking about the future and what options exist if game devs ever wanted to go beyond just proton compatibility. I'm also not a game dev so idk how much more performance you could get over proton with even the most optimized for linux game out there
Don't agree. Break Microsoft's monopoly as the PC platform. Aspects of society is increasingly owned and dependent corporations' offerings. Public options like Linux ought to be the default. It will NOT grow otherwise.
If someone were to build a game from the ground up to run on Linux, the Windows Subsystem for Linux would easily allow for the game to run on Windows itself, and would probably run better all things considered. Plus, at some point, Windows is going to fall apart with the way they have been going. If they don't get a handle on whoever is scraping their users' data, more and more people will switch to another OS. Making Linux based games would help to drive a push towards Linux.
Help me to understand this. In layman's terms proton is software rapper that pretends to be windows system ? If so then what I've been saying for like 3years is finally happening. We're at the point where hardware is powerful enough to run emulated computer and that is better since than native simply because it would become a dev environment. That is developers could focus on developing for the virtual console and hardware could focus on developing and optimizing running that virtual console. It's brilliant.
Did braid ever actually give a reason for dropping Linux? Because looking by the type of game it is, it just seems like a re-compiling. Though at the time it probably wasn't that simple.
I was hoping that Proton would simple entice players in coming to Linux and be a stop-gap to enable the Linux community to thrive a lot more, then Proton would be replaced by native support because there would be enough of a market share to make it worth while
Linux support is just too messy,too many dependency issues. This is a nightmare already. Let's be honest here....now Linux support better windows apps than native ones...and i don't know what to think about it.
If I can get equal to or better performance in proton as it would be on windows then I'm good. I don't need linux native, though it'd be nice, if the game just works with a click of a button.
There are more and more Linux users :) We need to make more kids and let them all use Linux :) they grow up and they teach their kids linux... so in 80years... Windows is doomed.
WTF is a boomer shooter? I was born in 1978 and have never heard of such a term. Seems kind of a jerk thing to say since most people are being jerks when they mention boomers.
Native or proton is wrong dichotomy, correct one is nothing or proton. Mb people have forgotten how it was before Proton came out, but there were few games with native support, and some of them were from developers who promoted Linux as a good gaming OS and are promoting Proton now.
for a lot of Linux Native games that don't load because they're too old, i just end up using the proton version anyway. Even when native is an option sometimes.
Sure nice with Native games, but honestly, supporting multiple platforms is more costly than making sure it works with proton. So I rather have it that studios can focus on making a good game that works with Proton than supporting a native version.
One big problem with native Linux ports was fragmentation of distros causing these ports to be broken on many of them while working only on a few. For example, The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth's controller interface...I'm not even sure what distro it DOES work on, but every single one I ever tried, it couldn't come up with the button labels for anything, and no default mappings, making it a nightmare to set up. Spelunky just flat-out didn't work with a controller on most distros. And these aren't exactly the most complex games out there, so you can imagine what sort of nightmares that would have been scaling up from there. Like it or not, Proton solved a lot of these problems, along with the developer mentality of "I don't want to make a Linux port because less than 1% of my userbase is chewing up 20% of my support time". I'm really not sure Linux ever really benefited from a hard-line stance of "we don't want to be compatible with Windows, you WILL make it for us". Turns out, when you don't have any real leverage of userbase, you can't really strongarm developers.
@@gogereaver349 Games don't tend to come in appimage or flatpak form, save for very, very basic ones. And games still working only on a select subset of distros is still a problem to this day with native Linux ports. Devs are constantly, to this day, expressing frustration with that. This, prior to Proton, was really the Achilles' Heel of gaming on Linux.
if proton will be part of the general game development and not something that Steam or someone else outside of the studio has to do, then this is fine I guess. Although native support is and will always be better than any emulation. Having said that, I cannot blame just the game devs for not supporting linux with all the mess there is, sooo.....
Wine Is Not Emulation. Proton is a translation layer, just like any other library. It's not emulating anything, it is just translating on the fly. The hardware is still mostly talking directly with the software.
My take: I think Proton should offer itself as a library. Hear me out: Recently, you can decompile N64 games and then have them recompiled. In the past, you used an emulator to run them, but this method more or less rebuilds the N64 ROM as an executable for x86 by adding its own libraries. So... what if you could do something similar for Proton? Instead of running the app through Proton, you compile it with Proton's libraries that more or less handle the same function calls it was going to operate anyway. This removes Proton as a layer and in effect turns the game into a Linux binary.
There's this myth that persists about Proton. People seem to think it's like an emulator. But the fact is, it's not. Proton already *is* a library. Er... It's a collection of libraries. Think about it: what does an emulator do? It converts binary CPU instructions for one system into compatible instructions for the current system. But your CPU doesn't change instruction sets on Linux vs Windows. Your PC knows how to run PC applications. It's just that the apps need to know how to talk to your hardware. Literally all proton is is a Windows-like API environment for Linux. So it literally is a bunch of libraries. It would actually degrade the effectiveness of Proton if developers had to bundle Proton with their games. Especially when we have already tried this (BioShock Infinite, Dirt Showdown, etc) and it would be on the devs to update the games if something in Linux userspace broke proton.
Honestly, I prefer Proton GE with the power of Vulkan API unless some troublesome engines gives particular issues anyway due to the developer incompetence :/
Never understood boomer shooters name... they have nothing to do with Boomers generational.... and boomer cannot be used to describe games with guns, cause that is just stupid.
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The steam deck kinda can have the console effect where devs can focus on optimizing for the "console" resulting in better performance.
This in turn optimizes for linux in general.
@@notcorrectwell Linux PC can have a bunch of different configurations while a Steam Deck is mostly the same besides the LCD and OLED version having different components but mostly run the same thing.
No devs on earth makes their games for the niche steamdeck market.
@@Thesavagesoulsi love steamdeck but you are right. Steamdeck sold way better than most people expected but handheld pc is still a very niche device
@@notcorrect not necessarily.
Right now, I don't have a problem with game developers testing that their game works with Proton and not providing a native Linux version. This is because Linux has only a 2% share of the market and Proton is currently the best way of increasing Linux market share without causing a lot of extra work for game devs. I do have an issue with new games releasing with a Windows and macOS version and not a Linux version though because there are now more Linux gamers on Steam than macOS gamers.
Once Linux market share rises, we may indeed start to see more native Linux versions - it's very important that all the popular game engines fully support Linux (including any third-party plugins) otherwise we will indeed be stuck with Proton running Windows-only releases for a long time.
I think MS will be helping Linux gaming out pretty soon with the announcement of their Copilot program that will be logging everything you do on your PC... I for one am working on and getting comfy with Kubuntu at the moment on my gaming rig (games work great btw) and plan on moving over to Linux on my other systems soon.
Win11, the trainwreck that it is, is now reduced to a VirtualBox window for me, where it belongs.
@@MrNickpeck36 Vista, 8 and 11 were fine with you up until now. Sad thing is people will tolerate garbage for so long and they'll tolerate more than even you because of ignorance or it being so much trouble for some to backup everything and install a different OS.
@@MrNickpeck36 Huh I didn't think of that. Thankfully I only use Windows in my works laptop. Personally I have a Steam Deck and use Apple products. Will be interesting to see if they allow companies to ditch copilot on business computers as I doubt they'll be comfortable with it recording every single thing their employees do!
@@marksapollo I hear ya and I’m wondering the same for my work workstations.
4%. You turned your back for a moment and we doubled
The native ports will come back as Linux gaming hardware becomes yet more mainstream and developers have a practical reason for doing so. In the short term, I don't really see what's in it for the developers, especially when our archaic methods for handling libraries makes old stuff break all the time. I actually enjoy the fact that I'm running software I'm not supposed to -- it's a subversive thrill.
The thing is
Proton being as good as it is also makes native linux support obsolete for at the very least fully offline games
So proton support as a whole can freely replace native linux support
@@V2ULTRAKill Pretty much, but we'd all rather not say it out loud. ;-) I believe Microsoft want to move away from Windows, but I think their ageing platform has now become a kind of lingua franca, where we can use it as an intermediary language between different platforms.
Does that mean _we_ did embrace, extend, extinguish?
Why wouldn't devs use Proton? They struggle to optimize for Windows, so adding Linux is more work, money, and support for a tiny number of people. Even if Linux gains market share, I don't see the major developers making native ports. They will just test Proton instead of leaving it to Valve to patch.
Not support for linux is not easy answer. There are many distros. I can guess it a lot of work? Arch Linux, Debian, ubuntu and others common popular. But I can guess it the HMDI there protection as it not update anymore. Well there is graphics drivers as well. It hard to trouble shoot when doing vulkan support. Example small pc or small boards. Just for got there is Arm and smart phone chips. It a lot of work. As people are crazy do some port all devices is not easy task and cost time and money.
funfact: Hotline Miami's Linux port is "double-native" - orginally they used GameMaker on Windows, which run internal game logic via interpreted scripts, but for Linux they made a pure C++ port just like Hotline Miami 2! It performs way better than the original Windows version.
Jonathan Blow, Braid dev, said that Linux and MacOS ports for Braid Anniversary Edition will come out, but later. Unless his plans have changed, of course.
90% of "native" games were just the Windows version put in a Wine wrapper. All that really changed is that the compatibility layer moved from being in the game, to Steam itself.
Is this actually true? Is exporting, say, a Unity game for Linux just produces an exe wrapped in wine?
And running them these days is a mixed bag, often requiring workarounds just to run a version that never got any updates at worse performance than just forcing Proton will give you.
First class proton support would be nice but at least my game of choice, wow, was problematic to run smoothly. Sometimes it worked great, sometimes it stuttered badly.. and I doubt blizzard will invest any resources to make sure wow runs on proton well from one update to another. Debugging seems like it would be difficult if not impossible and you're talking a lot of added complexity to support the various ways it could be run. I suspect my issue is with my 12th Gen Intel p vs e cores but couldn't resolve by limiting to 6 or 12 cores within lutris so... Back to windows for me. Which "just works"
It's not perfect, but I do appreciate that some games run better in Linux than on Windows, even if it is just Windows emulation. For example, Grid runs better on Linux than Windows, despite being made for Windows. Although I could only get that game to run flawlessly on Win7, Win 10 and 11 would constantly crash after a few minutes and the developers weren't interested in fixing it.
@@qunas101I doubt it very much. It may still be the case that developers, even if using something like Unity, sometimes opt to wrap it that way anyway, but I find it dubious that 90% is accurate.
I honestly don't mind as long as I can play the game.
And in my experience, playing via Proton is actually BETTER than playing some native ports. Because those are often broken or their support is dropped at some point and then you'll be using Proton anyway.
Honestly dropping native Linux support can be a real issue, I can see many publishers taking advantage of this to deny support service to there games as they can claim they never designed it for Linux so they can't provide support for the game (EA has done this already in the past).
Plus it just allows companies to cut corners figuring someone else will get game running, or worse when the publisher decides to use an evasive DRM or Anti cheat tool that breaks compatibility tools.
The problem with native support is the ever changing Linux environment. A lot of games that had native support just doesn't work with new kernel versions, Saints Row Gat out of Hell, for example.
Not only that, but proton games tend for some reason to perform better than the native versions
Maybe, but Larian officially supports bg3 on the Steam Deck through proton.
@@MrTcmartins I stated that it would allow companies to not provide support and gave an example. That doesn't mean that all companies don't provide support.
They should just support proton officially
We do not need native support, we need Proton support. That is all there is too it.
I don't care if its no longer native support for linux as long they make have "native proton support" because if optimize the game for proton then its native linux for me.
Even brute forcing it to work with proton is fine with me
As long as it doesnt run worse than windows
@@V2ULTRAKill It always runs less optimal than windows... That's the problem with non-native software, it's the inherent overhead.
@@The-Cat thats untrue
In fact, even without native proton support, running proton generally outperforms windows due to how efficient proton itself is, and how inefficient windows is with its inbuilt bloatware
Native proton games generally run significantly better, and brute forced average equal to 5fps higher same settings
Made for Windows❌
Made for Proton✅
With how fast linux changes, I'm all for devs just developing for Proton.
Laughs in Debian
@sean7221 you'll have to tell us how big the meteor that killed the dinosaurs is when it hits :P
i mean, you can still use unupdated programa from 1 decade ago without problems in any linux distro (if it was madre for ir)
Linux support is just too messy,too many dependency issues. This is a nightmare already. Let's be honest here....now Linux support better windows apps than native ones...and i don't know what to think about it.
@@Tailslol you don’t know what your talking about
If a game works like it was native through Proton, then does it matter if it's not native? Sure, Proton is an extra step in the way of best performance, but to be honest it can work just as good as if it was native. If Proton was paywalled, then it would be a bigger deal, but I think it's fine if a dev only offer great Proton support instead of native since you can use it even without Steam.
When the Steam Deck first launched, Valve themselves actually recommended developers to use Proton over native Linux ports. I know it disgusted many Linux die-hards, but It simply makes more sense to support one build of the game rather than two native builds. It costs publishers less to maintain one release branch - they do not need developers with as much Linux specific expertise, and let's face it, the Linux versions are often forgotten and don't get the same updates, fixes, and TLC as the Windows versions do. Getting Over it with Bennett Foddy is one example - the end game reward did not work on the Linux version last I looked. Also Blasphemous had delayed free DLC releases for Linux, and cloud saves never worked between Windows and Linux ports of the game. The Games Kitchen certainly also realized this, as Blasphemous 2 does not even have a native Linux port. For me, forcing both games to use Proton instead just works with no fuss. Valve often has Proton fixes for games before publishers do, and so long as they keep Proton fully funded, there's no reason not to let publishers at best do some Proton testing. I get the concept and principle of heralding Linux native ports, but in reality it just works better with one version. With Vulcan, and Proton, I can see a future where games may not even run native on Windows anymore, but in a platform agnostic environment, perhaps something like Proton in Windows itself. It certainly increases compatibility with older games to have a highly compatible translation layer.
becouse valve tried with steam machine to push for native games. most devs just took wine and called it a port and normaly done terribly with the wine api itsself lacking as well. it failed hard. companys would also get crap hardware as well raise the price and slap steam machine on it. so valve learned from that. they nedded to controle the hardware and they nedded to help the wine project get good becouse game companys are not going to get off microsofts dick without a fight.
I have a Mac, and I'm curious how it has become "harder and harder to sideload software". I have 3 or 4 apps from the app store, and the rest are "sideloaded" and I didn't find it difficult in the slightest. This includes running a lot of Unix CLI apps through homebrew. There are a lot of annoying one-time access prompts, but app store mac apps aren't immune from that so it's not a sideloading difficulty.
The process for "sideloading" apps on an Mac is the same as it has been for 20+ years.
Yea I am not sure where those claim are coming from, if we’re talking about IOS sure. But MacOS has been the same as usual.
the real answer (haven't watched the full ep yet, but the answer is obvious) is that thanks to proton, linux gamers get near or even better framerates than native windows gamers. As long as you give first class proton support, why would you want to fight for linux support? until linux' own infrastructure improves (and/or it becomes actually more popular) then unless you have the chance and see a noticeable improvement in native support (which now you really usually won't), why bother? it's not that linux isn't worth it, it's that proton is _so good_. this is something to be proud of, and I am eternally grateful that wine and proton have come so far.
I switched my home PC to linux (Garuda, but I still run a custom built kernal for gaming) all AMD and I get better performance in Linux than windows. Refuse to go back to windows at this point because the linux gaming community thanks to the deck has exploded.
Honestly, I'd rather have a first class Proton experience. It's basically the Windows version, that gets the Windows updates and extras on the same day (or at worst, a few days later if it breaks Proton day one.)
Any port that isn't Windows or Console is going to be on the "Back Burner", even a Windows port can be bad, so why would I want a port a year later from a over worked team of maybe 10 people or fewer with minimum support?
If it isn't broke, don't fix it.
I wouldn't say that Linux's infrastructure is lacking in any sort of way, it's just always evolving, unlike Windows, which has remained fairly the same under the hood since the switch from DOS to NT. Linux is in a constant state of change, which makes it difficult for corporations selling long-term products to keep up and leads to legacy software getting left behind unsupported.
@@Dr-CthulhuOfRlyehThe only way I could ever see making a native Linux version of a game as being a good idea would be if Windows died completely like I'm talking where it's market share would have to be in heavily last place. I'm talking something like less than 30% of PC users are on Windows type of deal.
I think the death of Windows 10 will increase the Linux community user count but not buy enough to make it worth it.
more and more windows games are using open source apis like vulkin anyways. so making them work on linux is a simple task.
In my experience, games on Proton more often works better than the native Linux version of a game. I can see game developers dropping Linux support if putting a bunch of work into it still doesn't get you as well as what you get from Proton.
I think it is better this way because I had few games which had native Linux Support, BUT the versions of the games would be different in Windows AND Linux, so when I played in one of those OS I would advance on the game, only to realize when trying to continue it on the other OS that the SAV versions were different and thus NOT COMPATIBLE most of the time (mainly when playing from the higher version in Windows to the lower version on Linux).
Being able to configure everything as a same "Windows Version" but perfect Proton Support is way better IMHO these days, can't stress enough how much Valve has done for us gaming in Linux with the Steam Deck
Agreed. I hope Valve gets more people to work on Proton so more support comes faster down the road. I say this because with the direction MS is taking Windows, I have a feeling a big influx of Linux users will be coming lol. Valve has done an amazing job with Proton and I hope they can keep growing it.
I think it's a good thing if they stop with native support and instead start to work on their games instead saying you need to have photon version so and so. That way instead of making some one have to windows, mac or linux, they will instead have to have a machine that can run the version of photon that the game needs.
Jonathan Blow (the original creator/developer) said on his stream that Linux and macOS builds of Braid: Anniversary Edition are going to be coming down the line.
Therein lies one of the issues I have. Native Linux ports always come "down the line" or "later"...
@@seansretroverse9082 True, though in this case, he said something along the lines of "there are just a few issues to be ironed out".
They ported the game to iOS and is on Netflix as well, so they're definitely committed to bringing the game to other platforms.
Blow finally figured out how to install Linux correctly.
That or he just bought a Steam Deck.
@@seansretroverse9082 well if we could convert more people to Linux and get them to understand the spyware free performance boost in Linux is, we'd never have to worry about this "later down the line" problem.
@@ActionGamerAaron making fun of people who annoyed you with their opinions on the internet, what a sad life you have
Proton has kind of made everything better. I remember leaving a game to run natively with Linux and the save location is different so until I fetch it, I cannot use that save on my windows install. Not every game does that but if something as simple as a proton install can give you the leisure of never needing to worry about that again, then it's probably worth ignoring.
As it is, I do feel like the bigger task is using proton on Windows since they've dropped support for so many operating systems this year. There are a few games that don't work well with modern windows and are delisted so devs and publishers have no reason to keep the game current.
Native windows games run better on Steam OS anyway
the steam deck brought a whole handful of normies to Linux. for once I am happy some normies are in the picture, because normies bring demand. No one really ever cares what the weirdos want. proud weirdo, and I completely understand.
fr, if there's one thing normies can do very well it's definitely bringing high demand to the market
Yeah, calling them that is not a good idea. Most people already dislike the Linux community because they come across as abusive partners in a strange relationship. General users would be better.
@@V1CT1MIZED language police over here!! nah, im a weirdo, and to me they are normies. if that language makes them all sad, or bothered, then they are lost already and probably are mac users or something so it doesnt apply anyways. the normies have been calling us names our whole lives. at least normie is not really all that mean in comparison. I am sure they are strong enough to know they are basic. lol the world revolves around them typically. linux as i know it will never go away. I am not worried if the normies stay or go. just happy we can use them while they are around.
That couple million steam decks sold definitely brought attention to linux gaming.
The PS5 runs a custom version of BSD, so porting to general Linux shouldn't be that difficult. I can see where supporting every distro can be resource-intensive. Then there's the ever-changing Linux landscape like the adoption of Wayland and the nightmare that can be video drivers. Simplifying support to Windows and consoles allows them the ability to pool resources into the actual game. I don't like it, but I understand it.
but console have a pre set hardware that never changes. in pc you use a mix os hardware brands. this is the major problem of PC worst than dealing with OS. thats why drivers exists
@@ryonagana Because it's BSD-based, I guarantee drivers exist in the PS5 OS. Replace those drivers and it can run on other hardware. BSD is versatile, but driver support is lacking.
Drivers exist so we don't have to recompile the kernel after changing hardware. What you see as a problem for PC, isn't an issue. It's a strength. If I want to upgrade my CPU or GPU, I can. If I want a performance boost, I can change both the CPU and GPU and have a marked difference in gameplay and productivity. You can't do that on console.
Last week I had dropped a demo on Steam which was the Windows version, and it just ran on the Steam Deck without changing compatibility. It just works!!
who cares about "native support" as long as the game works i'm happy.
Proton and Native don't seem that different since the only real difference is the layer for both ports since Proton support can also be implemented to the Windows port as well, making it easier to implement for Linux. There's definitely going to be Mac and Linux demands for better and broader support for both tools and games though now that Windows Recall is in the newest updates of WIndows
prton takes windows calls and makes them linux ones.
As long as Proton is open source, it's fine. If Valve ever decides to pull a Redis, then we're f*. That means the entire ecosystem depends on Valve's good will.
At least we're safe until at least Gabe retires or Valve is bought by some mega corporates
Yeah people cry about Microsoft but are happy to jump into bed with another corpo that could turn on us whenever they please. At least Microsoft only have the desktop PC in their grip. Valve could end up with not only PC gaming but the OS too. Which is even worse.
@@V1CT1MIZED I'm surprised so few people look at Valve and Proton through a critical lens. Their work with Wine is amazing, but they're still doing it for profit at the end of the day. Which explains why Proton can't run without Steam
@@pacifico4999 exactly. Valve aren't doing this for Linux users, it's for profit. They released proton a few years before the deck launch so people would beta test it for free. Obviously this has a side effect of benefiting Linux gamers, but it wasn't done for Linux gamers. I honestly think more people care about hating Microsoft than they do FOSS.
@@V1CT1MIZED though I do hate Microsoft lol
Proton killed native Linux support. As a game dev, why would you pay extra for a native Linux version when everyone can run the game on Linux using Proton? The big issue going forward is going to be the embracing of kernel level anti-cheat systems by game studios that will stop games working on Proton.
The only thing I’m worried about with games dropping native Linux support is if proton dies tomorrow which would sound like a possibility on windows but probably would never happen on Linux. Because it’s open source. Fellas can add to it modify it and make the design uniform so that it works just right which sounds perfect to me. If you really want the native Linux port just got to gog dude
Proton is based on Wine, and Wine feeds back into Proton, and Proton feeds back into Wine. There's no way to kill Proton -- it'll just be assimilated bit-by-bit into Wine.
theirs so many versions of proton that someone just needs fork it. its open source.
@@Sunrise-d819i2 Proton GE
The only thing I'm worried about is Windows 11 or 12 implementing something bad into msbuild that heavily violates privacy or breaks anything not running native windows aa part of "security" or something.
proton is wine everything from proton makes it way to the main wine branch.
I'll always support native Linux releases! #foss #opensource
Most native Linux releases aren't FOSS or open source...
@@fairphoneuser9009 unfortunately, I hope more game devs see the way 👀
@@lorddeus369 That wont happen and its honestly for the best. FOSS games never go far because funding doesn't exist for 99% of them.
Native support doesn't really matter nowadays... Unless Microsoft pulls some sort of DRM/rootkit shenanigans with DirectX/Xbox
I paused the video after the intro to purchase Dudelings. I must have missed the announcement video. Well, I guess this way I don't have to worry about missing the giveaway either 😆
IDK why people don't understand native Linux games ARE NOT FEASIBLE, which has been tried 20 years ago and failed. The problem is ALL SOFTWARE must be freaking recompiled for every single OS update, and this is not possible for closed source. Linux dependencies are absolute trash for backwards compatibility, and they DON'T CARE to fix this. Flat pack is a modern workaround, but it's also pure bloat, and not 100% future proof. It's way easier to make a Windows version, and let the Linux compatibility layer do it's job, and also get it's own independent performance updates. Windows itself is a decade ahead of Linux feature support, with things like Wayland being beta. It's massively more efficient to emulate windows and let Linux do it's own feature progress independently than tying a game to outdated runtimes. This is also what every single Linux tuber blatantly omits when talking about Linux. They ALL showcase their distro by showing a DESKTOP THEME, instead of telling you what the OS can actually do, usually because their distro is outdated, and you should be running a rolling release distro instead of Debian stable. Those old distros are not meant to run on modern hardware, and while they run, you won't get full support for your hardware. Linux is also not truly open source, as most of the distros behave like a collection of dictatorships. Ubuntu for instance is run by a billionaire, and red hat is purely corporate. Most of them have zero interest in being a viable alternative to Windows, and their infighting hinders progress. This is why Arch has the biggest support from enthusiasts, and Valve created it's own distro, which locks software into flat pack, so the software doesn't break things. Valve is basically hiding how broken the OS is, and deck users think "oh this is like Windows", when it's nothing like it.
You're wrong, native support is perfectly feasible. Factorio managed to do it.
The dependencies support is an old argument. Valve has made it extremely easy for games to be ported by fixing this issue, just target steam libraries and this issue is wholly fixed.
And also, there's this thing called appimage that also solves this issue, but unfortunately it isn't well used.
For the rest of it I agree, it is easier to just let wine do it's thing.
Tbh I think I much prefer proton any way because rather we want to admit it or not supporting a native Linux game is was more work then windows just due to the constant change Linux goes through.. with proton as long as proton runs on your system then games will that run through it will. we just need to get over ourselves and realize the amount off work to support native games that are not opensource games is way too much compared to our market size.. lost count of how many native games I have that I now play the game through proton because the performance is WAY better and two the native versions don't even work anymore without work arounds.
They are dropping support because Microsoft feels threatened. And they have control over the gaming companies. They already know that people are flocking to Linux.
Also the reality is, some games that are verified have issues, some of Steams own features like broadcasting doesn't work.
Updates and progress have been slow 2 and half years since the release of the deck aside from the bug that was fixed, which caused issues with Switch emulation. i struggle to remember any notable updates.. yay we can increase vibrancy now which a plugin could already do.. Even content creators don't bother to cover the minimum, fixes anymore, instead we get "games dropping linux support" the fact is, games rarely supported linux or cares even before the Steam deck. As a games developer, why would you? Steams stats are made public. Many games devs whos released games on Linux said it's not worth it. And i understand some fanboys might get upset by my comment but you can ignore my comment same as you do facts.
Seeing as there is generally a stable update of the Steam Deck client once a month and there's a SteamOS upgrade once a quarter, I'd say the pace of development and innovation is strong.
Valve *doesn't* make Steam's metrics public. Instead, the hardware survey results publish relative numbers. So what percentage of the hardware survey respondents had X hardware or Y software. We don't have any hard numbers for monthly active Steam users. We don't have total units sold for the Deck.
The reality is, the Deck is the first stepping stone to a PC gaming ecosystem that's free from the meddling, cancerous reach of Microsoft. It's not perfect, but it's getting there.
@gardiner_bryant Innovation? The only innovation since the launch required you to purchase a new OLED Steam Deck. I have the OLED and an Aya Neo. While Windows sucks on the Aya Neo because of the form factor, more games work, and I've had zero software issues. My Deck always has some kind of problem, the most recent being that it won't boot, and I have to hard reset it. Or it takes ages for it to connect to my 6 GHz Wi-Fi network when other devices, including the Aya Neo, don't. Not a good look.
@@gardiner_bryant please consider making a video on where the steam deck needs to improve.
I dont consider it a stepping stone into pc gaming, because people have done that with laptops and prebuilts. it's more of a stepping stone into using linux but the average consumer doesn't care about that. It needs to be better than windows and to simply say its faster. it doesn't matter if half your games don't work correctly or require some tweaks in desktop mode.
What happens if one day Valve becomes one of the bad guys or gets bought out, or goes out of business? Proton is created by Valve.
What happens if future versions of Windows find a way to lock games to their OS with some kind of BS “security” check that renders Windows games unplayable on Linux.
What about a future game store on Linux that doesn’t use Proton?
This seems bad in a lot of scenarios. Windows having a monopoly on PC game development is not a good path for consumers. Another potential area for consumers to get locked into Windows even if more people start realizing they don’t want Windows as they keep adding in more advertising and spyware. But they have no choice because there are no alternatives.
I haven't had a working Windows PC for years, but I am perfectly fine with games supporting Proton but not native Linux. When a native Linux version is available, the Windows version on Proton often runs better anyway.
Moreover, there is a tendency that Linux games stop working after a while due to changes in Linux. This is no different than what happens with Windows games; however, for Windows games you can just run them on an old version of Proton. For Linux it gets far more complicated, if it's even possible.
Linux support means incurring 100% additional support costs for 3% additional users (tops). Just not worth it.
Plus, the developer tools on Windows are so, so much better. Until Linux gets the equivalent of Visual Studio (esp. its integrated debugger), it's a nonstarter.
It's all semantics. At the end of the day, Proton is a library, so what's the difference whether it's using the proton library or the SDL library. I have no issue with developers using proton instead of a 'native' linux port (whatever that means) - it makes sense with all the different linux distros out there.
If Proton becomes the docker of gaming I'm all for it, game compatibility breaks even between Windows releases and need tweaking a compatibility layer that could almost act like a virtual environment with minimal performance downgrade would be a game changer and simplify game development.
About the first topic: I agree, in the end I don't really care *How* a game is running on Linux, but that it actually does. Then it doesn't matter if its native or through proton, as long as it works well. In fact if the devs keep proton specifically in mind, that means they can focus on updating the game without wasting resources on a port that then wouldn't be updated later / as quickly.
F****** cloud gaming, I will NEVER use it I will go retro and likely not play new games then want to support it willingly.
Proton is all well and good until Microsoft change DirectX in future and lock out Linux going forward
Hi! I bought dudelings, mostly because I wanted to give you support, but honestly, it didn't jive with me , I'll keep trying tho. I think a video tutorial would be helpful? Keep up the good work man!😊
I already did! ruclips.net/video/TOMuuenbdXM/видео.html
They will want native support for increased performance.
So, can you get some facts straight? I am with you that Apple is restrictive, but with MacOS - you mentioned that it's "getting harder and harder to side load." Ummm, since when? Apple has made zero moves in restricting (or even making things "harder") to side load. In fact most Mac users, barely use the Mac App Store.
Again, I am with you on Apple's extreme restrictiveness, but at least get your facts correct.
As someone who has looked into publishing my game for macOS, I can tell you that the burden Apple places on the developer is just too damned high and it's not worth it.
I appreciate native linux support, but if there’s decent proton compatibility I don’t mind not having it. Th
I preffer games support wine/proton than support Linux directly 'cause theoretically proton will not change more than Linux stuff do (specially Gnome and their stupid decisions).
lol, why use gnome
And here was i thinking game developers were using milti-platform engines
Damn I remember playing the demo of braid on the 360 and thinking it was cool but I never ended up purchasing it Yes that's how long ago we're talking about.
I was just hoping Linux would keep gaining support so I could leave Microsoft behind for good.
It is. Proton is making it so
i want steam os on my pc windows 11 is cancer in software
definitely a hot take, but it makes sense (at least for now). hopefully the linux market share will grow enough for devs to see linux as a more essential platform. good on the Braid devs to take extra care with their linux-friendly-windows-only approach.
it has grown its at like 5% now. it was at 2% forever. steamdeck relly pushed it and with windows 11 pretty mutch being you'r personal fbi agent now i think wee will see another surge.
Native support is conceptually counter to foss. Program your game nicely and it will find itself compatible with people's computers, and some of them may feel like paying
Some of you live in a dream world if you think people can work for free with only occasional donations. This is why most FOSS software is garbage compared to proprietary software, and the successful FOSS projects like Blender get sponsored by corporations.
I have been a linux advocate since the 90's. I have been professionally using linux since the 90's.
I advice any publisher to focus only on proton. Not on windows, not on linux. They both get covered by proton. Make sure it works on proton, unless you are big enough or are 31337 enough to be a linux first game shop.
As test I do advice an investment in a steam deck. As a matter of fact, I use my steam deck for 100% of my work, so it can never be seen as a bad investment.
You guys do know Apple has a proton alternative right?
lol, apple and gaming will not happen, let it go
We just need valve to release steam os for desktop PCs. Then hopefully more devs would jump on. Atm there no reason to make and support Linux version. I really wish I knew why official steam os hasn’t come pc yet. Some ppl say it’s cus anti consumer of Nvidia driver for Linux are horrible. others say GTX/RTX driver are starting get decent now.
Ms has bullied out all other OS in mid 90’s except Mac OS and Linux. Ms has strangle hold on pc market. So of course devs are only going target window, Cus that is where majority of pc gamers are on. If that ever changes. Then hopefully we’d see more devs target steam os or Linux. Thanks Proton (Vulkan.Api) and steam deck has make gaming on Linux better.
If steamOS released how it is now. People would bounce off it so hard and hate linux on desktop.
@@V1CT1MIZED
It’s way better now then what it was few yrs ago. I tired HaloISO few years ago and game mode was buggy as hell. At it was on my 2700x/16GB/1080ti/ssd. But of course that wasn’t the official version. I think that was ver 3.1 ish? There on v3.5 something now. Of course Nvidia gtx drivers were horrible then.
You don’t see Microsoft pushing bug fixes or updates on weekly, sometime they doing updates every couple of days. Ms has NEVER done that. To say steam os is bad is bs. I suspect they getting mobile experience to be really good/very optimize. Then they start work on desktop version for steam os. And I hope Valve will have decent GTX/RTX drivers.
I want native linux ports because I want to see a linux port that is very optimized on linux to get the best performance and to see how that compares to the windows version.
Also I don't think the libraries changing and breaking games will be an issue. Non-steam games should use Flatpak and Steam games can use Steam Linux Runtime (basically flatpak). I believe immutable distros are the future for normal users anyways, and flatpaks have the advantage of compatibility on any system
I have been an avid Linux gamer for 15+ years. Well before Valve released Steam for Linux. Many of my earliest purchases of native Linux games have ceased to function because of outdated dependencies. Even games I reviewed early on in my channel no longer work despite the Steam Linux Runtime.
Furthermore, most game devs don't have the staff with the know-how to optimize their Linux ports to the same level of their Windows client and they couldn't justify the exorbitant cost of hiring sysadmins with the requisite skills... Especially when you consider that those folks could make more money doing similar work for hardware vendors developing drivers or fill other such positions.
Economically, it just doesn't make sense for most studios to release a native Linux build unless the engine they're using handles all the heavy lifting for them.
@@gardiner_bryant I know it doesn't make sense economically right now. I was just stating my "wish list". However, Linux market share is growing, and with a general SteamOS release we could see a lot more people using Linux as their gaming device, whether it be a handheld or desktop.
I have some games that have Linux native ports, and some only work when using the Steam linux runtime, however performance is sometimes way worse than the Windows version (Borderlands). I also think games would need to "target" the SLR dependencies to maintain compatibility, but don't quote me on that.
I've been around since Ubuntu 10.10, and I know how terrible gaming was back then before steam even had a Linux client. So proton is absolutely amazing. I'm just thinking about the future and what options exist if game devs ever wanted to go beyond just proton compatibility.
I'm also not a game dev so idk how much more performance you could get over proton with even the most optimized for linux game out there
FAQ or F A Q meaning Frequently Asked Questions. Great video lots of great news keep up the awesome work!
I liked the smash button 😂
Don't agree. Break Microsoft's monopoly as the PC platform.
Aspects of society is increasingly owned and dependent corporations' offerings. Public options like Linux ought to be the default. It will NOT grow otherwise.
If someone were to build a game from the ground up to run on Linux, the Windows Subsystem for Linux would easily allow for the game to run on Windows itself, and would probably run better all things considered.
Plus, at some point, Windows is going to fall apart with the way they have been going. If they don't get a handle on whoever is scraping their users' data, more and more people will switch to another OS. Making Linux based games would help to drive a push towards Linux.
Would be interesting to see a comparison between sunshine server + moonlight vs netris.
If it's easier for developers to support proton than Linux, I think not supporting native Linux is acceptable.
i dont think we need native builds for linux anymore. pick a version of proton and support that. two oss with half the work.
Help me to understand this. In layman's terms proton is software rapper that pretends to be windows system ? If so then what I've been saying for like 3years is finally happening. We're at the point where hardware is powerful enough to run emulated computer and that is better since than native simply because it would become a dev environment. That is developers could focus on developing for the virtual console and hardware could focus on developing and optimizing running that virtual console. It's brilliant.
Did braid ever actually give a reason for dropping Linux? Because looking by the type of game it is, it just seems like a re-compiling. Though at the time it probably wasn't that simple.
I was hoping that Proton would simple entice players in coming to Linux and be a stop-gap to enable the Linux community to thrive a lot more, then Proton would be replaced by native support because there would be enough of a market share to make it worth while
Linux can run EXE's just fine, especially if you know how the tools work... BOOP! I'm In...
Lately, i'm not worried if there's no native linux support at all.
Infact, it might even run BETTER on linux, with less support.
Linux support is just too messy,too many dependency issues. This is a nightmare already. Let's be honest here....now Linux support better windows apps than native ones...and i don't know what to think about it.
If I can get equal to or better performance in proton as it would be on windows then I'm good. I don't need linux native, though it'd be nice, if the game just works with a click of a button.
There are more and more Linux users :) We need to make more kids and let them all use Linux :) they grow up and they teach their kids linux... so in 80years... Windows is doomed.
Honestly, I sometimes had more luck with getting the windows version to run without problems, while the native version just wouldn't work.
WTF is a boomer shooter? I was born in 1978 and have never heard of such a term. Seems kind of a jerk thing to say since most people are being jerks when they mention boomers.
Native or proton is wrong dichotomy, correct one is nothing or proton. Mb people have forgotten how it was before Proton came out, but there were few games with native support, and some of them were from developers who promoted Linux as a good gaming OS and are promoting Proton now.
for a lot of Linux Native games that don't load because they're too old, i just end up using the proton version anyway. Even when native is an option sometimes.
Native Linux support would be cool, but not needed. But I think Valve could do better by making ABI more stable for developers
Current Shenanigans in Windows will drive millions of users to Linux. Keep an eye glued to the Steam Charts.
Sure nice with Native games, but honestly, supporting multiple platforms is more costly than making sure it works with proton. So I rather have it that studios can focus on making a good game that works with Proton than supporting a native version.
the temperature of the orange pi neo IS HORRENDOUS
One big problem with native Linux ports was fragmentation of distros causing these ports to be broken on many of them while working only on a few. For example, The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth's controller interface...I'm not even sure what distro it DOES work on, but every single one I ever tried, it couldn't come up with the button labels for anything, and no default mappings, making it a nightmare to set up. Spelunky just flat-out didn't work with a controller on most distros. And these aren't exactly the most complex games out there, so you can imagine what sort of nightmares that would have been scaling up from there. Like it or not, Proton solved a lot of these problems, along with the developer mentality of "I don't want to make a Linux port because less than 1% of my userbase is chewing up 20% of my support time". I'm really not sure Linux ever really benefited from a hard-line stance of "we don't want to be compatible with Windows, you WILL make it for us". Turns out, when you don't have any real leverage of userbase, you can't really strongarm developers.
in the old days this was true. but stuff like appimage and flatpak fixed that.
@@gogereaver349 Games don't tend to come in appimage or flatpak form, save for very, very basic ones. And games still working only on a select subset of distros is still a problem to this day with native Linux ports. Devs are constantly, to this day, expressing frustration with that. This, prior to Proton, was really the Achilles' Heel of gaming on Linux.
I liked the smash button, but now my screen is cracked. I don't think I did that quite right
Excited for the orange pi noe. Hopefully its a decent device, I would hate for it to fail.
i would see that why macos is being dropped is because of apple’s game porting toolkit
Factorio is the only game that supports Linux everything else you might as well use proton
So many linux ports are so badly made that proton ends up making them run better than native.
All they have to do is port it to proton natively and by doing that it ports to linux
if proton will be part of the general game development and not something that Steam or someone else outside of the studio has to do, then this is fine I guess.
Although native support is and will always be better than any emulation. Having said that, I cannot blame just the game devs for not supporting linux with all the mess there is, sooo.....
Wine Is Not Emulation. Proton is a translation layer, just like any other library. It's not emulating anything, it is just translating on the fly. The hardware is still mostly talking directly with the software.
Linux still useless for anything that has a anti-cheat these days...
your silly advert made me buy all those games!!! help !!!
My take: I think Proton should offer itself as a library.
Hear me out: Recently, you can decompile N64 games and then have them recompiled. In the past, you used an emulator to run them, but this method more or less rebuilds the N64 ROM as an executable for x86 by adding its own libraries.
So... what if you could do something similar for Proton? Instead of running the app through Proton, you compile it with Proton's libraries that more or less handle the same function calls it was going to operate anyway. This removes Proton as a layer and in effect turns the game into a Linux binary.
There's this myth that persists about Proton. People seem to think it's like an emulator. But the fact is, it's not.
Proton already *is* a library. Er... It's a collection of libraries. Think about it: what does an emulator do? It converts binary CPU instructions for one system into compatible instructions for the current system. But your CPU doesn't change instruction sets on Linux vs Windows. Your PC knows how to run PC applications. It's just that the apps need to know how to talk to your hardware. Literally all proton is is a Windows-like API environment for Linux. So it literally is a bunch of libraries.
It would actually degrade the effectiveness of Proton if developers had to bundle Proton with their games. Especially when we have already tried this (BioShock Infinite, Dirt Showdown, etc) and it would be on the devs to update the games if something in Linux userspace broke proton.
Honestly, I prefer Proton GE with the power of Vulkan API unless some troublesome engines gives particular issues anyway due to the developer incompetence :/
Normal Proton uses Vulkan, too
Did you say like that smash button on purpose?
Never understood boomer shooters name... they have nothing to do with Boomers generational.... and boomer cannot be used to describe games with guns, cause that is just stupid.
I take it to mean "boomer" is synonymous "old"
Forsaken Remastered is really great, recommend it