@leovaeg the marketing department I'm 100% sure doesn't play and have just a vague idea of the game. The other departments (game designer, painters, sculptures, writers) probably play, but in a very casual way.
feels like a very obvious loophole when even in 9th choosing a chaos war band (say Thousand Sons for instance) would give all your Heretic Astartes models the Thousand Sons keyword AND when you chose one of the cults it would confer a keyword for that too.
If they wanted to prevent divergent chapters from using it they should have put that "while running a * insert codex divergent army * all units in that army have the * Insert divergent chapter * Keyword. At least thats how I see it.
I'd say rather than "all units" it should to use a divergent detachment you must use at least one specific unit in the army" which gets rid of that boosted oath of moment, but doesn't stop people from taking some regular units
@mortenbrandtjensen6470 the challenge there is checking whether you're doing a Supplement or not. Currently the check is "do you have Divergent units". They could either make it so the supplement Detachments make your army all Divergent units, or they could word the OoM buff to be Detachment based, but in a way that also prevents Space Wolf Stormlance/Dark Angels Gladius from getting the benefits. The former is easier, in the Detachment Rule you just add the bullet point "All ADEPTUS ASTARTES units gain the Faction keyword " and it solves it. And if they go no Blood Angels units in a Codex Compliant Detachment , then they're just red painted Ultramarines.
@@JozzboGaming There's nothing stopping someone from a non-Codex chapter from taking units that aren't their special ones. I run Space Wolves and the list I'm currently playing with has Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, JPIs, Bladeguard, Scouts, a Judiciar, an Impulsor, Repulsor Ex and Gladiator. But I also have a bunch of SW specific units as well, so I don't get the boosted OoM. And that's perfectly fine.
To be fair, even before this change, my White Scars list used a Blood Angels detachment to make the bikes hit harder, and as there's only one "meh" character for the White Scars its not like I'm missing much fluff - I just ran the Kor'sarro Khan model as a Captain.
I kinda dont want that for a stupid reason sometimes i enjoy bringing a codex detatchement with my dark angels. Never knew i could get the new buffs, because that just seems against the spirit of the rule. I have played dark angels for years I will keep playing then so the thought wouldnt have crossed my mind to say "Well they are ultramarines now"
@@muellermat Trouble is, you wouldn't have thought to do it, some degenerate would and unfortunately you need to rule against that "common sense" etc always falls to the wayside of compettetive degeneracy. Though it would suck for you I'd have to agree that keywording divergent chapters is the only way and GW should juts make actual codexs for those chapters with all units to stop this double dipping two books.
Beyond it being an error or not, it certainly shows how strong of a change that is if all those people are going “you know, I don’t really need Thunderwolf Cavalry or Deathwing Knights in my list, +1 to wound is better” Maybe it was the wrong change to begin with, especially because you’re not really incentivized to play codex compliant, you’re incentivized to play UM with Guilliman
Completely agree. Now we just see genuinely strong UM. Meanwhile everyone else in the codex still isn't competitive due to their weird insistance on making them all separated, even within their own codex.
@@Payomeke I think ur full of shit. UM pays a premium of 345 to benefit from double army rule, which require UM to have at least 2 bricks of fire power after using 17% on a singular model. T9 4++ is not a good defensive stat and 3+ revive is not a guarantee
@@deamzhang7338yeah I think people just hate on the ultramarines still. For no real reason. The returned primarchs should be epic and game defining. I dont have him in my list. I don’t have calgar in either. I have both models. Actually I have all the epic hero’s for the ultras. I love them and wanted all the characters for my chapter but that doesn’t mean I need to use them all the time. I like to list build and come up with fun lists that arnt tournament level but that’s ok. Not everything has to be competitive level.
Space wolves already have access to lance for their thunder wolves, so the decision to not take them and go full codex space marine units is an entirely flavor choice imo. I think it’s cool for successor chapters and if +1 to wound on one unit 5 times per game is really such a big deal then maybe buff the other units to where it isn’t. Like it’s good, but if people are swapping units to get it it’s probably not entirely for meta reasons. This is for space wolves at least. Idk how it looks from the other divergent chapters POV.
I mean it is not always a 16% boost. I play chaos knights and damn does it hurt having a t12 or t13 model get wounded on 5s by some basic bolter fire. Literally doubled the damage I take from s6 and bellow weapons
The reliance on D6 is why resolving combat is so complicated. If you are used to playing other systems it is insane that to resolve a single shot you are rolling to hit, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, rolling to wound, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, then a save, probably modified, then maybe a FNP. For one shot! Madness...
the thing is, that sometimes an army's theme isn't tied into their unique units. you can still have a very on-theme blood angels army with just Jump intercessors, generic jump captains, Jump Chaplain, Vanguard Vets, etc. throw in some Tanks and Blood Angels Assault terminators(because rules-wise, they're just glammed up SM assault terminators) and you've got a still thematic BA list that can pull these shenanigans.
It's crazy to play systems with d20 like infinity after 40k. 20 sided dice stats are much more fine-tuned. Tbh, in 40k you sometimes roll for dozens of miniatures, so it makes sense to keep d6. But I can see your point very well
Non divergent divergent chapters. Its great for meta gamers and noone else. Codex marines still get shafted while divergent get their fluff taken away. Should have just been separate codexes imo
“Fluff taken away” only works for Black Templars who completely disregard the Codex or the Deathwatch for self explanatory reasons. Anyone looking at this saying “Red/Green Ultramarines are real!” don’t know what the 6th - 9th Companies are.
they are subfactions they do not need their own codexes but I agree there should be benefits for codex using codex compliant in codex complaint detachments
Astartes are winning more places at top tables than any other army. They've got a 52% win rate since this change. And 9:11ths of astartes armies going to the top table are ultramarines lists. So pretending this rules update is is somehow favoring divergent chapters OR hurting vanilla is laughable. ADDITIONALLY, it gives players whose chapters who lost all their rules moving from 9th to 10th the ability to actually represent those chapters the way they are represented in the fluff. For instance, I now have my counter-charging hyper-aggressive, melee-preference, siege army of the Minotaurs back as a playable presence on the field.
Spamming blade guard in blood angels for the +1 to wound is very powerful when you add +2 strength on the charge. It means even scouts with combat knives are wounding terminators on 2s
Flashbacks from good old days. I remember when in 8th you often spam troops with scouts cheaply in BA armies, and still they have wounded everything in game on a 5+.
and firestorm detachment means even infernus marines will wound terminators on 2s. I dont think blood angels get it any better than, say, Ultramarines if they decide to go the new oath rules over their named characters and unique units. Detachments specialize in different things, the BA one means your combat units are better, I see nothing wrong with that.
@ it’s a close one. I think blade guard with plus 1 to wound are stronger than sang guard just because they’re cheaper. Even S6 Reivers are brutal with the plus 1. I expect GW to close the loop hole soon
@@Chasemcloud5745 sang guard can get lance anyway though, plus they have significantly better movement. It all depends on the rest of your list, as everything
@ true. And I’m not saying this is a better option than LAG with BA units. Jsut saying there are some strong options for the 2 strength and plus 1 wound
If you don’t take any chapter specific datasheets then sure they should have access to the new oath of moment boost. The major advantage they had was being able to take usually just outright better datasheets than core marines. Detachments without chapter locked units are just a different rule set theoretically anyone can use. You have more options as a marine player to use these detachments. You choosing to not take it in a competitive environment is your decision especially since they aren’t particularly that strong comparatively.
@ except it always had access to all space marine units, these units could always be ran in the BA detachment and in general are usually worse on average than the BA specific units. Not including BA units or characters functionally means any space marine player can play the “blood angels” detachment. This edition has been very clear on making the rules agnostic from the paint scheme. If an ultramarine player wants to run the liberator assault force and not run any blood angels units then that should be fine. You impose quite a few restrictions on yourself to utilize these niche combos so allow the players who are clever enough to restrict themselves that much and still succeed to be rewarded for clever list building and playing.
@@TimeMaster0 Would you agree the main weakness of standard SM is the lack of strong melee options? I believe the problem stems from divergent marines being more melee capable by a large margin.
@ I think it’s part of the problem sure but I think marines have issues in both shooting and melee given their durability and points cost. Like terminators have decent melee but god awful shooting most marine units are no longer tactically flexible and can operate in both roles decently. BA, SW and BT certainly have some really solid melee which provides more options of play this is part of the reason I have no issues whit Liberator assault group receiving the oaths boost if they don’t take BA datasheets it fixes a problem that marines generally have of giving them solid melee at the cost of removing all named characters, and BA datasheets from your list.
Thank god you exist. I feel like I’ve been screaming this point into the void and haven’t found many who agree. I actually like that list building has a meaningful decision in do you want buff data sheets or buff OoM. Decisions in building are cool.
I feel like realistically people are mad at the wrong thing. Maybe I'm projecting but the bigger issue I think is that running the flavourful units as of right now is less appealing than not running them. There have been lists featured before on the channel that have had 1, maybe 2 unique units -- a lot of the Dark Angels lists for some time (as far as I recall) were almost exclusively Azrael with generic marines. When factions that have recently received nerfs that shot their winrates straight down are "performing" using none of their specific units it kind of feels like a slap in the face.
The simple fix would be to give all your Adeptus Astartes units the [whatever chapter] keyword when you chose it during list creation. it used to do that in 9th
Maybe, but “my Dark Angels aren’t as good as Raven Guard” is a pretty entitled complaint to me when my Raven Guard haven’t been as good as your Dark Angels for the entire edition prior to now, and basically every edition prior. You’re basically saying “we’re not the best chapters (along with BA, Wolves and BT) for the first time ever and I’m mad.
I cannot talk for others. As for myself, I am just annoyed that one of the best factions in the game currently, Blood Angels, gets to not only have +2S +1A but also +1 to wound by simply not running some specific units, and just running other very similar units, because the depth of the SM unit list is so large that you can even find duplicates of units for the same role. It is clearly an unintended consequence and it screws the balance even more with respect to the always hard to balance SM macrofaction.
As a son of Sanguinius, we should not be getting the +1 to wound if we’re taking LAG. This rule was designed to help out the codex compliant chapters in keeping them relevant and giving them a rules buff. We should only get this buff if we forego ALL our special toys. I could see making an exception for characters though as the divergent chapters do infact get those.
Yes, probably. It's pretty clearly a loophole going against the spirit of the change. I don't see it lasting long. I expect an Errata to specifically exclude divergent chapter detachments as a whole.
my FLGS already said for its tournament events if you are playing a Divergent detachment you will not get to use new Oath. They tend to do things in the spirit of changes as opposed to letting people be overly meta-gamey. Its why I love giving them my business.
No. Running a core chapter with a divergent chapter's detachment rules is rules as intended by the designers. The purpose of the buff to codex compliant chapters was to make up for their lack of access to divergent specific units. It was always intended that any Space Marine army could take any Space Marine detachment, regardless of if they are codex compliant or divergent. Not to say that there isn't an imbalance caused by the new rule that doesn't need to be corrected. I'm just pointing out that the current problem is not against the spirit of how Space Marines are supposed to be and that segregating the divergent chapters from the codex chapters is actually the move against the developers intentions. My solution, before GW unveiled the changes to oath of moment, to the power discrepancy between codex and divergent chapters would have been to have different points values for units depending on if they were taken in a core or divergent army.
If i take standard space Marines units and paint them pink I can play them as Blood Angels...is my choise. With standard blue space Marines you can also play any of Blood Angels or Dark Angels detachment since start of 10th edition. Since there is no rule how to paint your models, you can play what you want unless you take special units and characters.
@@falsehero2001 no Detachments are meant to be only used by the army that they where given to or else Tyranids should be able to use the New Genestealer detachment
*Raises hand* I play Lamenters, when I realized I get the wound bonus despite using Liberator I was quite happy as fluff wise, as a chapter the Lamenters are pretty much; a Sanguinius descended yellow Ultramarines successor, especially post penitent crusade with there being so few left from the Badab era still counted amongst the living. I did not realize however that what I thought was a neat little quirk would turn into an actual problem? Which is a shame.
It is a loophole. but at the same time it does allow people to represent the armies that are divergent from the core but don't have their own units. The main abuser of this is the blood angels liberator detachment. But at the same time if you wanted to do a Biker army you are limited to only using that Dark angels detachment and if a person just ran 3 chaplins on bikes and then 6 units of outriders and no DA units he should get the benefit .
I'm fine with compliant chapters using non-compliant detachments. My problem lies in that they get the best of both worlds for cheap victory. You can run a loyalist World Eaters army with LAG, but I draw the line at gaining compliant Oath.
@@LordCrate-du8zm they tend to be pretty basic marine centric. I’m a big fan of Sternguards so I try to find fun ways to make them work. My only real design flair is that I use a forge world Horus as a stand in for Guilliman. Been workshopping ideas to make an Abbadon or Loken out of other UM epics
As another Black Templars player, agreed. If there's going to be a point to having the divergent Chapters exist then there has to be differences. Let +1 to wound be the Codex Astartes buff and do something else for the divergent Chapters.
As a fellow Templars player, I see no problem with this and I honestly like not seeing Helbrecht in every single list ever fielded in this edition. Missing out on Sword Bros and Crusader Squads is a good trade off for "fluffiness" if it means that the chapter's leadership won't be fighting random ork mobs on some trashheap planet in every single game.
On one hand, it's nice for a divergent chapter player who doesn't have access to the chapter specific models (due to not a big collection) can get a buff. On the other hand, it makes every divergent chapter model need to be materially stronger than any default space marine unit to justify their existence in the face of the +1 wound bonus. Sangyinary Guard better be strong as hell to make up for the fact that if you took the generic alternative that fills a similar niche, your whole army gets a buff.
In most cases this is already true. Ever been bopped over the head by Mephiston or Dante and the boys? Those data sheets aren’t weak. I think it creates cool situation between choosing big data sheets or better oath. Meaningful decisions in list building are cool.
u just answered the problem....... Sanguinary guard better be strong... in the entire book there is a single unit that you care about. if Deathcompany, death company dread, baal pred, furiso dread and furiso Liberian were all strong units (and playable) you never consider giving up all that for +1w but right now you are just giving up a single unit SG which locking yourself out of 1 unit to buff the rest of your army is a no brainer.
@@getjinxed7354 my concern with this design philosophy is that then, you really have to go all or nothing. If all the BA units are good enough to pass on +1 to wound, then your BA list "should" be entirely BA exclusive datasheets. I dunno, seems fine as is now for... Giving Space Marines another way to play their army, poor them. I'm talking myself out of it.
Don't think of it as giving Divergent chapters acess to the new oath of moment, think of it as giving codex marines acess to the divergent chapter detachments.
I wonder if a good compromise would be requiring a divergent chapter to have a unique character. probably not, since the successor chapter "can't" have access to unique characters flavor wise. GW could require some amount of chapter specific units but I don't like that because I like how open list building is
@@geetr-weezerd yeah bit of an odd case if folks insist on the character being who they normally represent instead of suspiciously similar oc or something who just happens to have the same datasheet
Or perhaps to word that better you can choose between having acess to divergent chapter units and detachements but no boosted oath. Standard detachments and heroes and boosted oath, and no unique characters at all but all detachments and boosted oath
My inital thought to hearing people use the rule on divergent chapters was something like "Really? The rule is obviously only for codex-compliant chapters" so needless to say im good with this change
10:10 except the “”players”” will always constantly look to twist whatever GW tries to say and intend, requiring more and more from GW to us specific wording and slice up the rules and take away freedom until you’ve turned the game into a lifeless but “”functional and balanced”” husk. all because competitive players can’t fucking be normal with literally ANYTHING.
Correct. I watched competitive metaslaves ruin the commander format in mtg. A casual, social format to hang out and do silly things with the strange cards you found, instead now is a sweaty, grindy shithaus of metaslaves trying to end the game as quickly and efficiently as they can; doing so as insultingly as possible so they can get their jollies making others unhappy while denying their opponents from even playing the game. Competitive players ruin everything they touch.
@@jimmysmith2249to be fair to MtG’s player base it’s not entirely their fault. When wotc themselves went on to basically neglect and mistreat the other more competitive 60 card formats like Modern, Legacy and Vintage while simultaneously putting way more attention onto commander, it was inevitable that those refugees of the other formats would feel forced to either shift to edh or quit entirely
I agree with you. People can blame this rule or that rule, but ultimately 9/10 problems in the setting at any given time boil down to neck beards that need to win at any cost to feel good about themselves, and crying for rule change when anything works well against them. I recently switched to heresy and have found the community much more inviting as it has minimal to no meta chasing and focuses instead on fluffy narrative lists and immersive experience.
Seriously let tournaments suck ass fuck em. The like 5% of players going to tournaments and the 25% of that 5% are ruining the game for everybody else. 10th edition is a soulless husk just so the game can get abused anyways at tournaments. Let these players ruin tournaments I’m done caring
@@thegingerspacemarine until you go to a HH event and see that 85% of lists are March of the Ancients Contemptor spam unless the event pack specifically prohibits it
It's really ruined everything, it's quite common. Balancing a game based on the highest level of play usually has negative results for the average player
But they don't. If you compare the numbers they use for balancing Vs say, statcheck or goonhammer, gw are clearly using much broader categories to balance. And unfortunately competitive play is the best source of balance data.
Ya know, I will never understand why 40k players who don't care for comp 40k feel the need to come in comp focused spaces and loudly declare statements that can be boiled down to "your fun is wrong!" Like I'm perfectly fine with people who don't enjoy comp play when I see people playing casual/ narrative. I'm happy they are enjoying the hobby the way they want so why can't they extend the same kindness to us who do enjoy comp play.
I think so far it's less of an overarching issue but a single problem case, that being 'vanilla' Blood Angels. The combo of +1 to wound for a detachment that already improves wound rolls is just a bit much. Other divergent chapters have incentives that seem to outweigh all-vanilla builds, IE BT wanting 5+++ on 20 man bricks, Azrael and DWK for DA, etc.
Space Wolves also can do quite well running all non-SW units, especially now that Outriders are much closer to filling the Thunderwolf Cavalry role. A lot of their power comes from the detachment ever since losing a lot of their weapon customisation options.
@@ZaberFangATpreach. I've had mfs locally moan at me for not running unique SW units (many of which I never bought because I can see many of them getting pushed into legends in time), and I've had a deathguard player insist I play space marines constantly, despite the fact that space wolves *are* space marines.
this is just one more reason why i think it is time for the DIvergent chapters to split of from the main codex. make it so that the Divergent chapters can only use their own detachments and not able to use the improved Oath for a quick fix.
While I personally think this is a good change I think keeping codex attachments away from divergent would be good too. It’s a little drastic but it would probably help some of the animosity
I’ve been trying to figure out how to run my space wolf successor chapter, and this rule change really seemed like it was made for me so I’m hoping they don’t change that any time soon. At the start of 10th I said I wanted to use only new primaris units but with space wolf rules and this is literally exactly what I wanted. I just hope they can balance it to where I can still make it feel like I’m running my own primaris successor and not space wolves or ultra marines. The whole concept seems a lot more like how I was encouraged to make my own chapter in 9th, so I’m a fan.
They should really start doing space marines and divergent chapters the way they did with chaos space marines, each divergent chapter gets a small list of datasheets from the core codex but changed to that specific chapter, they can only use their own detachments and then while we are at it just give them a slight unique version of oath of moment that complements their identitiy. this way GW doesnt have to play 4d chess to balance space marines, they can release more plastic crack, divergent chapter players can't ruin it for core codex players and they wont have to buy 2 codexes that will be outdated by the time they actually have them.
I started playing in 10th with Salamanders. I used to lose most of my games, winning only once every three times or so with friends who had also just begun playing. I never meant that I wanted mine to be the strongest faction in the game, but I did want to feel like everyone in my group was around the same level aside from personal skill (you know, something balanced where choosing a certain army didn't automatically give you an edge). I'm happy the change came since now I feel like I can keep up with everyone better; though it did feel a bit bad when a friend of mine ran the BA + new OoM combo. It felt a bit bad because it looked like he was trying to twist the rules to get a piece of the cake too; except my army was given the cake because it was hypoglycemic I do like the idea of the new OoM being used as a way to run successor or homebrew chapters, but it's a bit sad that so many people would be willing to give away the fluff of their factions just to gain a little further edge to win. Everyone can have fun and enjoy the hobby their own way, of course; but sometimes it feels not like I'm playing Warhammer with someone, but rather, some sort of rules lawyer minigame with optimization elements
We shouldnt be shoehorned into not using the units we want, thats the “you dont have any BA units so you cant use LAG”. As someone who plays successors It should be this way so you’re not shoe horned into playing with units you dont want to use.
The Detachment is not balanced around this buff the Detachment is Balanced around Blood Angels no one is shoehorning you in to anything more then any other army goes thru
I play Angels Resplendent, BA rules don't help me. We simply don't get to keep getting the best of both worlds. If we are getting either BA units or detachments then we are BA, if we get neither then we are generic marines. As it should be.
@ if you can’t use the specialized units, it is not the best of both worlds. The angels list that he highlighted was built specifically to abuse oath of moment. Against a decent opponent LaG as melee will not as effective as that list, you cant move 3/4 melee units close enough on the boards how they are without them being shot to hell. The way GW does stuff now is bad for homebrew / successors that dont want to be diff colored blueberries.
This is the point I think divergent players just don’t get. It’s all LAG wasn’t meant for that and while LAG might be an outlier, I don’t want to play BAs but I wouldn’t mind playing LAG and not feeling like I need to play unique units to be viable.
Maybe it is just because space wolf characters are way cooler, but I cannot imagine trading our unique models/units for a one unit +1 to wound. I think most of the SW community found it isn't worth trading our unique stuff for what we want to do in CoR or Stormlance.
Regular adepetus astartes have always been able to use any of the divergent detachments. I just don't remember at launch any space marines wanting to take the pre buffed Champions of Russ that started with no sagas and only accomplish one per battle round. Now it's a problem? The whole point of the detachment system was so your home brew chapter could use the rules they wanted. The vanilla chapters can drop their heroes to run divergent chapters anytime they want. I'm just now convinced vanilla adepetus astartes players can't help but find something to bitch about.
I think this funky balancing act with space marines could be avoided by just making divergent chapters their own codexes like 8th. So they'll have their own army rules and detachments, etc.
I really wish I hadn’t chosen Space Marines as my second army once my primary army became super op early edition. They have been an infuriating mess since day 1.
There problem is that in a lot of cases, the non-divergent units have been nerfed so hard that the only way to be competitive is to ignore unique units. What are the BT and DA win rates? Are they ripping it up or are they in fact bottom off the pile and players are finding that they are having to not play their favourite units in order to be competitive.
from a DA stand point, we are in the middle ground running, but the problem is that we are running gladius/ironstorm to get our wins as our detachments are kinda meh, compared to say black templars and blood angels which you can see in this video lol.
@Rikksmith from a BT standpoint, our unique units have been costed out of contention, so there is little encouragement to do anything other than look for the boosted oath. A couple of small points drops for Some unique units would solve this problem. If BT players (and I suspect DA players) could run unique units competitively, I'm pretty sure that's what we'd like to do.
Doing away with selectable subfaction keywords is what enabled this, along with putting all of the Loyalist Chapters in the same codex. I get that GW has spent the last decade trying to make progressively lighter rule sets for their games, but there has to be an absolute minimal point where the return on investment ceases.
Then again, the core design principle for the entire faction this edition was "Doesn't matter what your dudes look like, play any detachment you like". Punishing the random Iron Fist successor player for going with Dark Angel's biker detachment, because his dudes use a lot of bikes and he just likes using them, when most balance problems stem from divergent units instead of divergent detachments, is silly.
4:43 playing the Deathwatch detachment without Deathwatch specific units, is the same as playing without an army rule. The Deathwatch army rule only affects Deathwatch specific units, save for enhancements and 2-3 stratagems.
The whole point of 10th editions non chapter specific detachemnts was to encourage people to not be penalized for their army paint scheme. I feel this is a huge win, as much as i love melee and am a die hard blood angels fanboy, it's awesome to be able to field a shooty army once in a while if i want and/or run in crusade play. The grotmas detach/boosted oath makes you feel like it can really be a thing.
Exactly the same for me and my space wolves being able to field a snooty army or a mech army is a nice change without having to pay for an entirely new army
Should be handled like CSM & God dedicated CSM are at the point. They will never ever balance all those datasheets properly without making strict limits.
This is how it was for previous editions, and personally I liked it way more. There was still meta chasing but it wasn't as bad, and it made it more encouraging to make cool and fun themed lists instead of just spamming whatever was 'good'.
ya? so every faction should get a codex for their subfactions right? otherwise youre treating specifically loyalist space marine subfactions as more important than ENTIRE FACTIONS its already insane with space wolves having more unique models than some xenos and chaos factions (not counting knights) like its ridiculous. they are subfactions if we're changing anything it should be all space marines in one codex, one faction, one codex
If someone in my gaming group tried to bring this cheese to the table they'd be called a weedy git! "Technically" it's genius for a tourney player but for people who actually love the storytelling and lore of this setting it's just sad.
How is it sad ? I hate it when people twist the wording but this ain’t the case with this its clear as day what the meaning is and I don’t see the issue this allows us divergent chapters to play a different play style melee tank or snooty or a mix nothing worse than being stuck in a specific play style
GW did say they didn't want people to worry about their colour of space toys. Not every codex compliant chapter has the same strengths; some have wildly specific functions and skills. I could quite happily see a shock assault based Ultramarines successor having some really good melee strengths, giving rise to them taking the Blood Angels detachment but still only fielding codex compliant units. Although I was a fan of 9ths way of making Marine chapter rules, being able to pick and choose from two lists.
What no one is taking about is how you can’t take Deathwatch as an ally and get the +1 to wound but you can take ally Greyknights and still get the oath buff. GW never made a distinction between index or codex deathwatch units despite one not getting oath of moment rules and one that does.
As a new Blood Angel player, who just run an list without any blood angel units, I can say that the non-Bangel Bangel do have some competitive play but they are probably not good as the Ultramarine. To the people who are unhappy about it, please remeber that in the blood angel codex which only has 15 datasheets, about half (7) of them (DC with bolt rifle, DC on foot, DC jumppacks, DC captain on foot, DC captain jump pack, blood angel capatin, DC dreadnought) are just space marine units + upgrade. It is totally logical that the BA use +1 wound as they are just painted red.:D
In theory it could be prevented by adding a rule to divergent detachments along the lines of "this detachment confers the [divergent chapter] keyword to units" thereby preventing the loophole
I got to admit I miss the old days when divergent chapters got their own CODEX instead of a supplement. Sure, space wolves or blood angels wouldnt be able to take certain units, but that gave you reasons to play vanilla Marines, where they have basically removed all of that.
3:58 I swear I saw someone talking about this loophole RIGHT after the balance update was released and figuratively screaming at GW to update ALL divergent chapters' datasheets to fix this.
Ultramarines should be a codex non compliant ik that sounds dumb but the amount they have over literally every other codex compliant chapter is ridiculous
It all comes down to how many unique characters/units you have and how powerful they are. Ultramarines were strong *before* the change, now they're one of the best armies in the game.
@@Xynth25 and it’s gonna cause every other space marine chapter to be nerfed into the ground. It’s literally the same as what was happening w divergent chapters before the change
@ it’s not the same extent of a problem but it’s the same problem. Why tf would u take any other chapter that has literally a quarter of the unique datasheets
Some people in this thread are simultaneously claiming thst they do this "for the fluff because they want to represent their custom chapter" and that they cannot just play their divergent chapter as intended because then they would be at a disadvantage. Just say that you are trying to minmax like everybody else, but you are too coward to admit it, so you need to hide behind "fluff". Oh, yeah, you CERTAINLY need +1 to wound AND +2S to play your custom chapter based on BA. It has nothing to do with it being broken, you just want "the fluff". "But i dont want to use any of the named characters or spwcial units because... Eh.. reasons, it is not like i could simply change the name of the character to make it a different person, as that would break the immersion". So why dont you use codex detachments then, painting your minis in red, a d calling them wtf you want? Well, because you want the +2S +1A from liberators. Like, come on. You are just tricking yourself, the rest of us see past the BS easily.
I have my own order of Sisters. I just picked the rules that seemed the more appropiate and changed colour schemes, names, etc. I don't need to trick anyone by saying that i truly really need BoF detschment but also the effect of the penitent host and the enhancements and strats of Hallowd Martyrs because it is really the only way to represent the order how i envision it (broken af, that is)
I think its fair, literally just gives more flavor to both the divergent chapters and the core book, and will sell just as many 'normal' kits. For Black Templars players to take it, for example, they have to give up half their tanks, their named characters, their sword brethren, and their crusader squads. Ultramarines dont have to give up their named characters, nor do Salamanders. For that, we get to use our detachment rules, which are good and can combo well, but theyre hardly game breaking, and you lose a lot of stuff to be able to do that. There is a deliberate choice and a payoff to make. and I like that. Brings back some thought into designing a list!
Non-divergent chapters can also run LAG detachment so I really see no issue here balance-wise. In fact, a codex-compliant chapter running the BA detachement is probably the only way a generic chapter can compete with the Ultramarines who got all the toys, buff to Guilliman AND the OoM buff
It definitely helped my Anvil list out this past weekend. 3-2 with only one blowout loss (really bad matchup when you pick up 10 terminators before you even get your first turn).
i agree, there is so much to gain for that + helps the weaker detachments that lack “punch” like lost and host + easier balancing bc they act more independently + gives more identity as THE prime melee marines + no weird overlaps like oath and death company auto reroll hits
Hear me out. Outside of the tournament scene, this seems like a really cool way to field custom chapters. Imagine new BA successors with the doctrines, but no access to Baal armories. Or BT successors commissioned by High Lords, without doctrinal imput from BT. This could be amazing for special play. As a fun of non special character your own make fluff, this seems fun. OUTSIDE TOURNAMNETS. I have given up on GW balance.
Outside of tournaments you can do wtf you want, so whether they change this or not will not affect you at all. Also, you do not need rules to creatw your custom chapter, just take the normal rules and apply fluff to them. This has to be pathed because it is a balabce nightmare. It was intended to give non divergent chapters a boost to catch up with divergent chapters, not to increase the overall power level of SM, already the most powerful macrofaction in the game.
Dude, I gave uo on GW balance. I tried Sm, custards. Death guard. Every game in 10th felt like a gotcha, I won only one game and enjoyed none. I guess what you are saying, however, is that GW is incapable of balancing the game. It relies on shit balance to fuel impulse sales by competitive whales.
@@tomaskapel2287 What I am saying is that if you want to use this rule outside of tournaments (as you mentioned), there is nobody stopping you, no matter what GW does. You are the one mentioning "outside tournaments". Did you just forget or is this more like a labyrinth than a train of thought?
@@tomaskapel2287 If you have played that many games of 10th and you didn't enjoyed a single one, either you are the problem or you should just stop? Why are you putting yourself through this? Is GW holding you hostage? Go and play other edition, or other game. Not sure why you felt the need to tell us your sad story, but it doesn't change the point that I am trying to make: Small details of balance only matter for tournaments. For amateur games between friends, it is as simple as "Hey, let's not abuse this rule." "Ok bet". It is really that simple. We have plenty of house rules because we enjoyed the games more in that way. So far GW hasn't sent any squad to silence us.
Nah just wanted to share... i am used to having to bend the rules and rulesets to best match forces... like using greynight rules a long time ago to play 1ksons (before they had an army). I can understand tournament community frustrations. I share them, I have just given up. Considering that competitive armies change every 3months, and there is very little chance to model+paint+play and work and parent, I am clearly not the target demo for this game. I have fondness and nostalgia for it, that is why I stick to auxpex. Good luck guys and gals. See you at the OPR/firefight table...we got beer/pizza
Hi. Someone who voted it was a good change here. It makes no sense to be unhappy with this change. It opens the game up for more creative lists. It in no way means Divergent Chapter special units are bad, just because people are trying new things at the highest level doesn’t mean you have to. You now get to think about what matters more in list building individual unit power or OoM power. That’s cool.
Given what I know of GW and my historical experience with them, I would argue that there is no way this was intentional. First, GW would never push a playstyle that actively incentivizes NOT using chapter specific models. It's completely counter to their "sell, sell and sell some more" mentality. Second, let's be real: 10th has been a very mixed bag and nowhere else is this more evident than with rules failings like this. With the Q&A team effectively a thing of the past, more and more glaring things like this are slipping through the cracks. Can all but guarantee this is "patched" within the next 3 months.
Its totally fine. You sacrifice the cool models that make your faction. In some instances, you give up enhancements too (templar Gmas). No boosted oath if you bring shrike for your raven guard then. The real problem is Ultramarines get this with their dozen epic heroes.
If they want core codex chapters to be better, just give them more units to play with. The Horus Heresy has plenty of unique units they could pull from; - Every chapter has their own Terminators and Characters. - All the Heresy-Era vehicles could be turned into unique units, like the Baal Predator. A lazy option, sure, but so many chapters are forced to use generic Space Marine vehicles to get any Heavy Support. - Imperial Fists have Phalanx Warders. Though they could use some standard Breachers as well. - White Scars have Stormseers, Golden Keshig, Ebon Keshig, Falcon's Claws and Karaoghlanlar. They even have their own variant of Land Speeder, but GW would probably turn it into a Storm Speeder. - Salamanders have Pyroclasts and Sanctifier Squads. - Raven Guard have Mor Dythan and Dark Furies. But I think they could have a better Upgrade Kit too. They're the Navy Seals Marines, not the Edgy Emo Marines. That honorable title goes to the... - Iron Hands, who have Medusan Immortals, Helfathers, Morlocks, and several Iron Fathers besides Feirros. I also think there should be a "Bionics" Upgrade Kit, though it doesn't need to be Iron Hands-themed. Just a bunch of prosthetic arms and legs for Terminators, Gravis, Tacticus and Phobos Marines. Iron Hands would enjoy it the most, but any chapter could get some use out of it.
I assumed taking the divergent detachments gave the Marines the associated chapter keyword. Adding that would be better, I think. And I say that as someone who actually already didn't play any BA specific units
TL;DW Tying Chapter keywords to unique characters instead of the supplement they use was going to backfire from the start, and they’ve backed themselves into a corner using it because that’s how codex compliant chapters get their unique characters as well.
The change was a great move by GW to help the codex marines, but as per usual they only thought HALFWAY through it. If its supposed to be for codex marines, rule the others out. For any non-codex detachment all they had to do was add "All units in this detactment gain the *specific non-dex chapter here* when selected for this detachment" for each and every one.
I think it's more of an issue that GW have really been fleshing out the playstyles of only certain chapters. No one wants to build a ravenguard army when the most unique thing they get is Kayvon. "Codex compliant" Marines need 1 or 2 unique kits for each of the other original legions to give them proper flavor and if you want to bring those units you have to bring a certain detachment. Simplicity of army construction can unfortunately no longer co-exist with Space Marines because of how many different kits they have with some special colored ones having rules that are just better.
The conversation probably ended with "..yeah, I guess-but why would anyone do that?". I can imagine finding this sort of loophole just isn't on their minds when making changes.
I remember when I started 9th, I thought it was quite clever how my units already had the heretic astartes keyword, gained the thousand sons keyword when I chose them, and gained a cult keyword when I chose one of the cults. I'm honestly baffled to hear this isn't how it works elsewhere. you'd think that when you assemble your army list, upon choosing your chapter to gain access to its special rules, all your generic space marine units would also gain that chapter keyword
I was shocked how much of a difference the change has made. Playing as chaos knight against a list heavy with twin linked weapons, the amount of bolter and flamer damage going through was ridiculous
Marine winrate will always be skewed since its the "beginner army". So if you're only looking at winrates youneed to to add 5-10% to get a feel for their relative power.
It’s an easy fix tho.. they just have to rule that in order to take a divergent chapter detachment you must have at least one unit with that divergent chapters keyword.
Great video! Yes I agree this loophole needs closed immediately. The intention behind this rule is being manipulated. It needs to only be playable by the codex chapters using only the codex detachments.
Eh, I'm pretty sure we went into 10th Edition that you could paint your models how you want but it wouldn't affect detachments etc so I don't really see the issue with this rule. Not every divergent chapter needs to always need the unique characters or units but then you do also not get to run the models you potentially like or want in your list
The Detachments are made for the codex they are used for the rule the army rule is just that the codex army rule you cant be thinking its ok for Space Marines to swap between codexes and mix them up while not being fully ok whit Chaos to do the same
@ All subfactions being able to use any detachment is also what GW prouded themselves with on edition launch. Punishing people for doing it in Marines would be silly.
Quick fix should easily just be limited to when you select the army. If you select blood angels, the + 1 W automatically is gone. This loophole is nuts
I recall seeing a designers note from one of the non-codex chapter detachments stating that all Marines in said Detachment were considered to have the keyword of said non-codex chapter. If that was the design intent why DOUBLE DOWN on the loop hole?!
GW: how can we tweak the rules to sell more miniatures? Math Hammer guys: how can we sacrifice the lore and spirit of the game to min/max the hell out of rules to win, win, win!!! Everyone: WTF, dude???
#1 - either retract RG's power up, or increase his cost to reflect his interaction with OoM (and I'm saying this as a Smurf player) #2 - restrict the OoM buff to armors using the formations "of the Codex", as in just the ones from Space Marines. It limits this type of abuse AND is fluff compliant, since the Codex Astartes is supposed to be a work of tactical and strategic genius. That makes it so divergents can choose to be their unique snowflake selves with the attendant enhancements OR toe the Codex line and get the OoM buff, not both. These BOTH need done.
If it is intentional, it would be good for GW to confirm it's intentional so that we don't have to keep giving these lists the side eye. If it is an accident and they don't want it, then hopefully they correct it soon. They could also just let the divergent chapters have the buff inside of their own detachments potentially
I could see it get errata'd out. More codex-compliant chapters could also probably use more characters (outside of proxying as UM), though - even if just to carve out a niche.
Honestly, from a balance perspective, I say let it cook. If it turns out super Oath divergent chapters are running wild, it only proves that their detachment rules are inherently too strong on top of a more diverse selection of datasheets.
Me and a buddy played my World Eaters with Vessels of Wrath against his Black Templars (generic). Had he deployed a bit better it would’ve been closer, but Juggalord with VoW and 6 E8B is insane.
Ultramarines probably didn't need the oath boost. They're just as good as the divergent chapters in terms of unique datasheets. They're easily top of all the marine factions at the moment
I think it shouldn't be a thing. I think the way to fix it is to say that if you run a divergent chapter detachment OR if you run any divergent units, then you can't use it. It's probably a miss and I can't for the life of me believe that GW was sitting there going "yes, we should let Blood Angels get +1 to wound along with their shenanigans".
I can see how it would affect others negatively, but as a Raptors enjoyer, i like running generic lists anyway. gaining access to more detachments is not only more fun for me but also on brand for the strategically open-minded "sensible marines".
I see absolutely no issues with "codex compliant" divergent chapter armies. Its fine and its fun. The only change that is absolutely valid, is to lock out Ultramarines.
Auspex Tactics: "Was it intentional by GW or not?"
GW game designer at a tournament: "Wait, can they really do that?"
90% of GW probably doesnt even play the games they work on
@leovaeg the marketing department I'm 100% sure doesn't play and have just a vague idea of the game.
The other departments (game designer, painters, sculptures, writers) probably play, but in a very casual way.
GW: *writes specific rule*
Also GW: *writes commentary that completely undermines that specific rule*
feels like a very obvious loophole when even in 9th choosing a chaos war band (say Thousand Sons for instance) would give all your Heretic Astartes models the Thousand Sons keyword AND when you chose one of the cults it would confer a keyword for that too.
@@leovaeg Big Business in the west, what a joke
If they wanted to prevent divergent chapters from using it they should have put that "while running a * insert codex divergent army * all units in that army have the * Insert divergent chapter * Keyword. At least thats how I see it.
That's the easy fix. So, probably in 6 months
I'd say rather than "all units" it should to use a divergent detachment you must use at least one specific unit in the army" which gets rid of that boosted oath of moment, but doesn't stop people from taking some regular units
Or supply don't have the OoM to wound buff active in supplements.
@mortenbrandtjensen6470 the challenge there is checking whether you're doing a Supplement or not. Currently the check is "do you have Divergent units". They could either make it so the supplement Detachments make your army all Divergent units, or they could word the OoM buff to be Detachment based, but in a way that also prevents Space Wolf Stormlance/Dark Angels Gladius from getting the benefits.
The former is easier, in the Detachment Rule you just add the bullet point "All ADEPTUS ASTARTES units gain the Faction keyword " and it solves it.
And if they go no Blood Angels units in a Codex Compliant Detachment , then they're just red painted Ultramarines.
@@JozzboGaming There's nothing stopping someone from a non-Codex chapter from taking units that aren't their special ones.
I run Space Wolves and the list I'm currently playing with has Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, JPIs, Bladeguard, Scouts, a Judiciar, an Impulsor, Repulsor Ex and Gladiator. But I also have a bunch of SW specific units as well, so I don't get the boosted OoM. And that's perfectly fine.
To be fair, even before this change, my White Scars list used a Blood Angels detachment to make the bikes hit harder, and as there's only one "meh" character for the White Scars its not like I'm missing much fluff - I just ran the Kor'sarro Khan model as a Captain.
This is valid
It's nice to see people not getting mad at Dark Angels for once since none of our detachments are good enough to make this worth it 😂
GW should give us the updated OoM if we bring our own detachments as a favor /s
You never show anger towards the spesho people that are 1st legion, it makes you look bad.
Add "models in your army gain the blood angels keyword" for the unique blood angels detachment, same for dark angels, etc.
Another good thought
I kinda dont want that for a stupid reason sometimes i enjoy bringing a codex detatchement with my dark angels. Never knew i could get the new buffs, because that just seems against the spirit of the rule. I have played dark angels for years I will keep playing then so the thought wouldnt have crossed my mind to say "Well they are ultramarines now"
@@muellermat Trouble is, you wouldn't have thought to do it, some degenerate would and unfortunately you need to rule against that "common sense" etc always falls to the wayside of compettetive degeneracy. Though it would suck for you I'd have to agree that keywording divergent chapters is the only way and GW should juts make actual codexs for those chapters with all units to stop this double dipping two books.
Or just make the divergent chapters pick a Warlord from their own ranks like most armies have to. That solves the problem.
@@karlnygren Fair just call it dark angel captain an be done with it
Beyond it being an error or not, it certainly shows how strong of a change that is if all those people are going “you know, I don’t really need Thunderwolf Cavalry or Deathwing Knights in my list, +1 to wound is better”
Maybe it was the wrong change to begin with, especially because you’re not really incentivized to play codex compliant, you’re incentivized to play UM with Guilliman
I think UM should also be excluded from this +1 wound Oath as the rest of divergent chapters, specially with our friend Guilliman
Completely agree. Now we just see genuinely strong UM. Meanwhile everyone else in the codex still isn't competitive due to their weird insistance on making them all separated, even within their own codex.
@@Payomeke I think ur full of shit. UM pays a premium of 345 to benefit from double army rule, which require UM to have at least 2 bricks of fire power after using 17% on a singular model. T9 4++ is not a good defensive stat and 3+ revive is not a guarantee
@@deamzhang7338yeah I think people just hate on the ultramarines still. For no real reason. The returned primarchs should be epic and game defining. I dont have him in my list. I don’t have calgar in either. I have both models. Actually I have all the epic hero’s for the ultras. I love them and wanted all the characters for my chapter but that doesn’t mean I need to use them all the time. I like to list build and come up with fun lists that arnt tournament level but that’s ok. Not everything has to be competitive level.
Space wolves already have access to lance for their thunder wolves, so the decision to not take them and go full codex space marine units is an entirely flavor choice imo. I think it’s cool for successor chapters and if +1 to wound on one unit 5 times per game is really such a big deal then maybe buff the other units to where it isn’t. Like it’s good, but if people are swapping units to get it it’s probably not entirely for meta reasons. This is for space wolves at least. Idk how it looks from the other divergent chapters POV.
It also shows again the weakness of the d6 system, where a 16% boost can make someone go "screw my army and its themes"
I mean it is not always a 16% boost. I play chaos knights and damn does it hurt having a t12 or t13 model get wounded on 5s by some basic bolter fire. Literally doubled the damage I take from s6 and bellow weapons
The reliance on D6 is why resolving combat is so complicated. If you are used to playing other systems it is insane that to resolve a single shot you are rolling to hit, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, rolling to wound, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, then a save, probably modified, then maybe a FNP. For one shot!
Madness...
It's more like a 50% boost when you go from wounding on 5 to wounding on 4
the thing is, that sometimes an army's theme isn't tied into their unique units. you can still have a very on-theme blood angels army with just Jump intercessors, generic jump captains, Jump Chaplain, Vanguard Vets, etc. throw in some Tanks and Blood Angels Assault terminators(because rules-wise, they're just glammed up SM assault terminators) and you've got a still thematic BA list that can pull these shenanigans.
It's crazy to play systems with d20 like infinity after 40k. 20 sided dice stats are much more fine-tuned.
Tbh, in 40k you sometimes roll for dozens of miniatures, so it makes sense to keep d6. But I can see your point very well
Non divergent divergent chapters. Its great for meta gamers and noone else. Codex marines still get shafted while divergent get their fluff taken away. Should have just been separate codexes imo
“Fluff taken away” only works for Black Templars who completely disregard the Codex or the Deathwatch for self explanatory reasons. Anyone looking at this saying “Red/Green Ultramarines are real!” don’t know what the 6th - 9th Companies are.
Means I get to play howling griffons. Space marines should be a single army.
they are subfactions they do not need their own codexes but I agree there should be benefits for codex using codex compliant in codex complaint detachments
@@voltix54 I mean the CSM divergents get their own...
Astartes are winning more places at top tables than any other army. They've got a 52% win rate since this change. And 9:11ths of astartes armies going to the top table are ultramarines lists. So pretending this rules update is is somehow favoring divergent chapters OR hurting vanilla is laughable.
ADDITIONALLY, it gives players whose chapters who lost all their rules moving from 9th to 10th the ability to actually represent those chapters the way they are represented in the fluff.
For instance, I now have my counter-charging hyper-aggressive, melee-preference, siege army of the Minotaurs back as a playable presence on the field.
Spamming blade guard in blood angels for the +1 to wound is very powerful when you add +2 strength on the charge. It means even scouts with combat knives are wounding terminators on 2s
Flashbacks from good old days. I remember when in 8th you often spam troops with scouts cheaply in BA armies, and still they have wounded everything in game on a 5+.
and firestorm detachment means even infernus marines will wound terminators on 2s. I dont think blood angels get it any better than, say, Ultramarines if they decide to go the new oath rules over their named characters and unique units. Detachments specialize in different things, the BA one means your combat units are better, I see nothing wrong with that.
@ it’s a close one. I think blade guard with plus 1 to wound are stronger than sang guard just because they’re cheaper. Even S6 Reivers are brutal with the plus 1. I expect GW to close the loop hole soon
@@Chasemcloud5745 sang guard can get lance anyway though, plus they have significantly better movement. It all depends on the rest of your list, as everything
@ true. And I’m not saying this is a better option than LAG with BA units. Jsut saying there are some strong options for the 2 strength and plus 1 wound
The local tournament I played in last Saturday had 2 Ultramarines in the Top 5. It’s made a major impact
For mcragge!
and only Ultramarines! good fix for the "codex chapters"
If you don’t take any chapter specific datasheets then sure they should have access to the new oath of moment boost. The major advantage they had was being able to take usually just outright better datasheets than core marines. Detachments without chapter locked units are just a different rule set theoretically anyone can use. You have more options as a marine player to use these detachments. You choosing to not take it in a competitive environment is your decision especially since they aren’t particularly that strong comparatively.
The Detachment is balanced around being used by Blood Angels not standard marines this is why standard marines got this buff and not blood angels
@ except it always had access to all space marine units, these units could always be ran in the BA detachment and in general are usually worse on average than the BA specific units. Not including BA units or characters functionally means any space marine player can play the “blood angels” detachment. This edition has been very clear on making the rules agnostic from the paint scheme. If an ultramarine player wants to run the liberator assault force and not run any blood angels units then that should be fine. You impose quite a few restrictions on yourself to utilize these niche combos so allow the players who are clever enough to restrict themselves that much and still succeed to be rewarded for clever list building and playing.
@@TimeMaster0 Would you agree the main weakness of standard SM is the lack of strong melee options? I believe the problem stems from divergent marines being more melee capable by a large margin.
@ I think it’s part of the problem sure but I think marines have issues in both shooting and melee given their durability and points cost. Like terminators have decent melee but god awful shooting most marine units are no longer tactically flexible and can operate in both roles decently. BA, SW and BT certainly have some really solid melee which provides more options of play this is part of the reason I have no issues whit Liberator assault group receiving the oaths boost if they don’t take BA datasheets it fixes a problem that marines generally have of giving them solid melee at the cost of removing all named characters, and BA datasheets from your list.
Thank god you exist. I feel like I’ve been screaming this point into the void and haven’t found many who agree.
I actually like that list building has a meaningful decision in do you want buff data sheets or buff OoM. Decisions in building are cool.
I feel like realistically people are mad at the wrong thing. Maybe I'm projecting but the bigger issue I think is that running the flavourful units as of right now is less appealing than not running them. There have been lists featured before on the channel that have had 1, maybe 2 unique units -- a lot of the Dark Angels lists for some time (as far as I recall) were almost exclusively Azrael with generic marines. When factions that have recently received nerfs that shot their winrates straight down are "performing" using none of their specific units it kind of feels like a slap in the face.
The simple fix would be to give all your Adeptus Astartes units the [whatever chapter] keyword when you chose it during list creation. it used to do that in 9th
Sorry not sorry. Codex Marines have been ass for two years before this. Literally over 700 days.
Maybe, but “my Dark Angels aren’t as good as Raven Guard” is a pretty entitled complaint to me when my Raven Guard haven’t been as good as your Dark Angels for the entire edition prior to now, and basically every edition prior. You’re basically saying “we’re not the best chapters (along with BA, Wolves and BT) for the first time ever and I’m mad.
I cannot talk for others. As for myself, I am just annoyed that one of the best factions in the game currently, Blood Angels, gets to not only have +2S +1A but also +1 to wound by simply not running some specific units, and just running other very similar units, because the depth of the SM unit list is so large that you can even find duplicates of units for the same role.
It is clearly an unintended consequence and it screws the balance even more with respect to the always hard to balance SM macrofaction.
@@JackDespero it completely ruins any potential to Balance the factions
There's really no problem with this. It's units vs Detachment. It's a choice and either way requires a sacrifice.
Preach
As a son of Sanguinius, we should not be getting the +1 to wound if we’re taking LAG. This rule was designed to help out the codex compliant chapters in keeping them relevant and giving them a rules buff. We should only get this buff if we forego ALL our special toys. I could see making an exception for characters though as the divergent chapters do infact get those.
Yes, probably. It's pretty clearly a loophole going against the spirit of the change. I don't see it lasting long. I expect an Errata to specifically exclude divergent chapter detachments as a whole.
my FLGS already said for its tournament events if you are playing a Divergent detachment you will not get to use new Oath. They tend to do things in the spirit of changes as opposed to letting people be overly meta-gamey. Its why I love giving them my business.
No. Running a core chapter with a divergent chapter's detachment rules is rules as intended by the designers. The purpose of the buff to codex compliant chapters was to make up for their lack of access to divergent specific units. It was always intended that any Space Marine army could take any Space Marine detachment, regardless of if they are codex compliant or divergent.
Not to say that there isn't an imbalance caused by the new rule that doesn't need to be corrected. I'm just pointing out that the current problem is not against the spirit of how Space Marines are supposed to be and that segregating the divergent chapters from the codex chapters is actually the move against the developers intentions.
My solution, before GW unveiled the changes to oath of moment, to the power discrepancy between codex and divergent chapters would have been to have different points values for units depending on if they were taken in a core or divergent army.
If i take standard space Marines units and paint them pink I can play them as Blood Angels...is my choise. With standard blue space Marines you can also play any of Blood Angels or Dark Angels detachment since start of 10th edition. Since there is no rule how to paint your models, you can play what you want unless you take special units and characters.
@@falsehero2001 no Detachments are meant to be only used by the army that they where given to or else Tyranids should be able to use the New Genestealer detachment
@mathiasschulze6148 your argument has nothing to do whit what he is saying
*Raises hand*
I play Lamenters, when I realized I get the wound bonus despite using Liberator I was quite happy as fluff wise, as a chapter the Lamenters are pretty much; a Sanguinius descended yellow Ultramarines successor, especially post penitent crusade with there being so few left from the Badab era still counted amongst the living.
I did not realize however that what I thought was a neat little quirk would turn into an actual problem? Which is a shame.
@@AlphaDingo990 just do it. It’s not a problem
I painted my marines as Luna Wolves and it’s been cool getting to play these detachments and not feel extra punished for it.
It is a loophole. but at the same time it does allow people to represent the armies that are divergent from the core but don't have their own units.
The main abuser of this is the blood angels liberator detachment.
But at the same time if you wanted to do a Biker army you are limited to only using that Dark angels detachment and if a person just ran 3 chaplins on bikes and then 6 units of outriders and no DA units he should get the benefit .
I actually liked this for custom chapters. Gives them more flavor while not using divergent units
As someone who plays Luna Wolves. Preach.
I'm fine with compliant chapters using non-compliant detachments. My problem lies in that they get the best of both worlds for cheap victory. You can run a loyalist World Eaters army with LAG, but I draw the line at gaining compliant Oath.
@@mercier390 Interesting. What kind of army list do you run?
@@LordCrate-du8zm they tend to be pretty basic marine centric. I’m a big fan of Sternguards so I try to find fun ways to make them work. My only real design flair is that I use a forge world Horus as a stand in for Guilliman. Been workshopping ideas to make an Abbadon or Loken out of other UM epics
@@mercier390 Fuck yeah, that's really cool.
Also, Loken's an easy stand in for Uriel Ventris
because that +1 to wound is bonkers! IMO should be dialed down to re-roll 1s to wound
but this would be to weak!
Nah, just don’t allow divergent chapters access.
@@morviummarv6390 the codex compliant space marines where fine. The +1 wound is very dumb it is absurdly powerful.
As a Black Templars player, yes please errata this out GW. I would have liked reroll 1s to wound on oath targets though.
As another Black Templars player, agreed. If there's going to be a point to having the divergent Chapters exist then there has to be differences. Let +1 to wound be the Codex Astartes buff and do something else for the divergent Chapters.
As a fellow Templars player, I see no problem with this and I honestly like not seeing Helbrecht in every single list ever fielded in this edition. Missing out on Sword Bros and Crusader Squads is a good trade off for "fluffiness" if it means that the chapter's leadership won't be fighting random ork mobs on some trashheap planet in every single game.
you get your multi-meltas, aren't you glad you're the vehicle specialists this edition? Iron Hands whomst?
I dont see the issue with this either. This way my guys can hit hard without having a ‘must-take’ unit in every list of every engagement size
@ and the codex chapters, who are lagging behind and who this fix was for, can just rot?
On one hand, it's nice for a divergent chapter player who doesn't have access to the chapter specific models (due to not a big collection) can get a buff.
On the other hand, it makes every divergent chapter model need to be materially stronger than any default space marine unit to justify their existence in the face of the +1 wound bonus. Sangyinary Guard better be strong as hell to make up for the fact that if you took the generic alternative that fills a similar niche, your whole army gets a buff.
In most cases this is already true. Ever been bopped over the head by Mephiston or Dante and the boys? Those data sheets aren’t weak. I think it creates cool situation between choosing big data sheets or better oath. Meaningful decisions in list building are cool.
u just answered the problem....... Sanguinary guard better be strong... in the entire book there is a single unit that you care about. if Deathcompany, death company dread, baal pred, furiso dread and furiso Liberian were all strong units (and playable) you never consider giving up all that for +1w but right now you are just giving up a single unit SG which locking yourself out of 1 unit to buff the rest of your army is a no brainer.
@@getjinxed7354 my concern with this design philosophy is that then, you really have to go all or nothing. If all the BA units are good enough to pass on +1 to wound, then your BA list "should" be entirely BA exclusive datasheets. I dunno, seems fine as is now for... Giving Space Marines another way to play their army, poor them. I'm talking myself out of it.
Don't think of it as giving Divergent chapters acess to the new oath of moment, think of it as giving codex marines acess to the divergent chapter detachments.
I wonder if a good compromise would be requiring a divergent chapter to have a unique character. probably not, since the successor chapter "can't" have access to unique characters flavor wise.
GW could require some amount of chapter specific units but I don't like that because I like how open list building is
@@geetr-weezerd yeah bit of an odd case if folks insist on the character being who they normally represent instead of suspiciously similar oc or something who just happens to have the same datasheet
Or perhaps to word that better you can choose between having acess to divergent chapter units and detachements but no boosted oath. Standard detachments and heroes and boosted oath, and no unique characters at all but all detachments and boosted oath
Preach
@ I like that choice a lot
My inital thought to hearing people use the rule on divergent chapters was something like "Really? The rule is obviously only for codex-compliant chapters" so needless to say im good with this change
10:10 except the “”players”” will always constantly look to twist whatever GW tries to say and intend, requiring more and more from GW to us specific wording and slice up the rules and take away freedom until you’ve turned the game into a lifeless but “”functional and balanced”” husk. all because competitive players can’t fucking be normal with literally ANYTHING.
Correct. I watched competitive metaslaves ruin the commander format in mtg. A casual, social format to hang out and do silly things with the strange cards you found, instead now is a sweaty, grindy shithaus of metaslaves trying to end the game as quickly and efficiently as they can; doing so as insultingly as possible so they can get their jollies making others unhappy while denying their opponents from even playing the game.
Competitive players ruin everything they touch.
@@jimmysmith2249to be fair to MtG’s player base it’s not entirely their fault. When wotc themselves went on to basically neglect and mistreat the other more competitive 60 card formats like Modern, Legacy and Vintage while simultaneously putting way more attention onto commander, it was inevitable that those refugees of the other formats would feel forced to either shift to edh or quit entirely
I agree with you. People can blame this rule or that rule, but ultimately 9/10 problems in the setting at any given time boil down to neck beards that need to win at any cost to feel good about themselves, and crying for rule change when anything works well against them.
I recently switched to heresy and have found the community much more inviting as it has minimal to no meta chasing and focuses instead on fluffy narrative lists and immersive experience.
Seriously let tournaments suck ass fuck em. The like 5% of players going to tournaments and the 25% of that 5% are ruining the game for everybody else. 10th edition is a soulless husk just so the game can get abused anyways at tournaments. Let these players ruin tournaments I’m done caring
@@thegingerspacemarine until you go to a HH event and see that 85% of lists are March of the Ancients Contemptor spam unless the event pack specifically prohibits it
Competitive 40k was the worst thing to happen to it... Scratch that second worst thing, number one will always be GW
Only if you lose
It's really ruined everything, it's quite common. Balancing a game based on the highest level of play usually has negative results for the average player
But they don't. If you compare the numbers they use for balancing Vs say, statcheck or goonhammer, gw are clearly using much broader categories to balance. And unfortunately competitive play is the best source of balance data.
Ya know, I will never understand why 40k players who don't care for comp 40k feel the need to come in comp focused spaces and loudly declare statements that can be boiled down to "your fun is wrong!" Like I'm perfectly fine with people who don't enjoy comp play when I see people playing casual/ narrative. I'm happy they are enjoying the hobby the way they want so why can't they extend the same kindness to us who do enjoy comp play.
Yeah,we should return to 7th edition for example .
I think so far it's less of an overarching issue but a single problem case, that being 'vanilla' Blood Angels. The combo of +1 to wound for a detachment that already improves wound rolls is just a bit much.
Other divergent chapters have incentives that seem to outweigh all-vanilla builds, IE BT wanting 5+++ on 20 man bricks, Azrael and DWK for DA, etc.
It's kinda weird though considering it's not hard to get Lance and Lethal hits.
Think so too. Three afe fine and BA is the problem boy here in the room.
Couldn’t they just faq BA with does not stack with oath?
Space Wolves also can do quite well running all non-SW units, especially now that Outriders are much closer to filling the Thunderwolf Cavalry role. A lot of their power comes from the detachment ever since losing a lot of their weapon customisation options.
@@ZaberFangATpreach. I've had mfs locally moan at me for not running unique SW units (many of which I never bought because I can see many of them getting pushed into legends in time), and I've had a deathguard player insist I play space marines constantly, despite the fact that space wolves *are* space marines.
this is just one more reason why i think it is time for the DIvergent chapters to split of from the main codex.
make it so that the Divergent chapters can only use their own detachments and not able to use the improved Oath for a quick fix.
but than they need an other Army rule !!!
While I personally think this is a good change I think keeping codex attachments away from divergent would be good too. It’s a little drastic but it would probably help some of the animosity
What they should do is disallow both divergent keyword units and divergent detachments
It would honestly easier just to make so the detachment gives you the faction keyword of the divergent chapter.
I’ve been trying to figure out how to run my space wolf successor chapter, and this rule change really seemed like it was made for me so I’m hoping they don’t change that any time soon. At the start of 10th I said I wanted to use only new primaris units but with space wolf rules and this is literally exactly what I wanted. I just hope they can balance it to where I can still make it feel like I’m running my own primaris successor and not space wolves or ultra marines. The whole concept seems a lot more like how I was encouraged to make my own chapter in 9th, so I’m a fan.
They should really start doing space marines and divergent chapters the way they did with chaos space marines, each divergent chapter gets a small list of datasheets from the core codex but changed to that specific chapter, they can only use their own detachments and then while we are at it just give them a slight unique version of oath of moment that complements their identitiy.
this way GW doesnt have to play 4d chess to balance space marines, they can release more plastic crack, divergent chapter players can't ruin it for core codex players and they wont have to buy 2 codexes that will be outdated by the time they actually have them.
Except that only happened for the cult chaos marine legions the rest of us got jack shit lol
I still think they should just make it so divergent chapters can’t use the codex detachments.
It’s the same problem with chaos. Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion get shafted.
"If you choose any of detachments all your units get Blood Angels/Black Templars/etc faction keyword" boom XD
I started playing in 10th with Salamanders. I used to lose most of my games, winning only once every three times or so with friends who had also just begun playing. I never meant that I wanted mine to be the strongest faction in the game, but I did want to feel like everyone in my group was around the same level aside from personal skill (you know, something balanced where choosing a certain army didn't automatically give you an edge). I'm happy the change came since now I feel like I can keep up with everyone better; though it did feel a bit bad when a friend of mine ran the BA + new OoM combo. It felt a bit bad because it looked like he was trying to twist the rules to get a piece of the cake too; except my army was given the cake because it was hypoglycemic
I do like the idea of the new OoM being used as a way to run successor or homebrew chapters, but it's a bit sad that so many people would be willing to give away the fluff of their factions just to gain a little further edge to win. Everyone can have fun and enjoy the hobby their own way, of course; but sometimes it feels not like I'm playing Warhammer with someone, but rather, some sort of rules lawyer minigame with optimization elements
Worlds smallest violin for DA, BA, BT, and SW players that the codex compliant chapters can compete with them for once.
Preach
They still lose thought that’s why everyone’s crying about this
We shouldnt be shoehorned into not using the units we want, thats the “you dont have any BA units so you cant use LAG”. As someone who plays successors It should be this way so you’re not shoe horned into playing with units you dont want to use.
The Detachment is not balanced around this buff the Detachment is Balanced around Blood Angels no one is shoehorning you in to anything more then any other army goes thru
I think GW agrees with you. I think they want you playing successors with this.
I play Angels Resplendent, BA rules don't help me. We simply don't get to keep getting the best of both worlds.
If we are getting either BA units or detachments then we are BA, if we get neither then we are generic marines.
As it should be.
@ if you can’t use the specialized units, it is not the best of both worlds. The angels list that he highlighted was built specifically to abuse oath of moment. Against a decent opponent LaG as melee will not as effective as that list, you cant move 3/4 melee units close enough on the boards how they are without them being shot to hell.
The way GW does stuff now is bad for homebrew / successors that dont want to be diff colored blueberries.
This is the point I think divergent players just don’t get.
It’s all LAG wasn’t meant for that and while LAG might be an outlier, I don’t want to play BAs but I wouldn’t mind playing LAG and not feeling like I need to play unique units to be viable.
If you chase every new rule or Meta list you’ll learn how to win but you’ll forget how to have fun.
Maybe it is just because space wolf characters are way cooler, but I cannot imagine trading our unique models/units for a one unit +1 to wound. I think most of the SW community found it isn't worth trading our unique stuff for what we want to do in CoR or Stormlance.
nah bro YOU'RE just not having fun. Comp players love this stuff.
What if I told you some people only have fun when they're winning?
What if I told you I’m actually having more fun now that I can play LAG and it’s not just clearly bad.
@@Cillipuddi It's a hollow kind of love. They endlessly chase victory because it's the only thing that makes them happy.
Regular adepetus astartes have always been able to use any of the divergent detachments. I just don't remember at launch any space marines wanting to take the pre buffed Champions of Russ that started with no sagas and only accomplish one per battle round. Now it's a problem?
The whole point of the detachment system was so your home brew chapter could use the rules they wanted. The vanilla chapters can drop their heroes to run divergent chapters anytime they want. I'm just now convinced vanilla adepetus astartes players can't help but find something to bitch about.
I think this funky balancing act with space marines could be avoided by just making divergent chapters their own codexes like 8th. So they'll have their own army rules and detachments, etc.
I really wish I hadn’t chosen Space Marines as my second army once my primary army became super op early edition. They have been an infuriating mess since day 1.
There problem is that in a lot of cases, the non-divergent units have been nerfed so hard that the only way to be competitive is to ignore unique units. What are the BT and DA win rates? Are they ripping it up or are they in fact bottom off the pile and players are finding that they are having to not play their favourite units in order to be competitive.
from a DA stand point, we are in the middle ground running, but the problem is that we are running gladius/ironstorm to get our wins as our detachments are kinda meh, compared to say black templars and blood angels which you can see in this video lol.
@Rikksmith from a BT standpoint, our unique units have been costed out of contention, so there is little encouragement to do anything other than look for the boosted oath. A couple of small points drops for Some unique units would solve this problem. If BT players (and I suspect DA players) could run unique units competitively, I'm pretty sure that's what we'd like to do.
Definitely will be, and thats a good thing. Another instance of tournament players ruining the spirit of the game by exploiting rules.
Doing away with selectable subfaction keywords is what enabled this, along with putting all of the Loyalist Chapters in the same codex. I get that GW has spent the last decade trying to make progressively lighter rule sets for their games, but there has to be an absolute minimal point where the return on investment ceases.
Then again, the core design principle for the entire faction this edition was "Doesn't matter what your dudes look like, play any detachment you like". Punishing the random Iron Fist successor player for going with Dark Angel's biker detachment, because his dudes use a lot of bikes and he just likes using them, when most balance problems stem from divergent units instead of divergent detachments, is silly.
@@Zakading so take that Tyranid army and use Spear head detachment got you i shall do that in my next game
@@viktorgabriel2554 Bro, you goal posts aren't meant to be loaded into drop pods and launched from orbit. Use your brain and common sense.
4:43 playing the Deathwatch detachment without Deathwatch specific units, is the same as playing without an army rule.
The Deathwatch army rule only affects Deathwatch specific units, save for enhancements and 2-3 stratagems.
The whole point of 10th editions non chapter specific detachemnts was to encourage people to not be penalized for their army paint scheme. I feel this is a huge win, as much as i love melee and am a die hard blood angels fanboy, it's awesome to be able to field a shooty army once in a while if i want and/or run in crusade play. The grotmas detach/boosted oath makes you feel like it can really be a thing.
Exactly the same for me and my space wolves being able to field a snooty army or a mech army is a nice change without having to pay for an entirely new army
Should be handled like CSM & God dedicated CSM are at the point. They will never ever balance all those datasheets properly without making strict limits.
Sounds like GW needs to make all chapters their own codex with characters and rules strictly for them.
Spacemarines should be a single army with a single codex. Characters suck.
This is how it was for previous editions, and personally I liked it way more. There was still meta chasing but it wasn't as bad, and it made it more encouraging to make cool and fun themed lists instead of just spamming whatever was 'good'.
ya? so every faction should get a codex for their subfactions right? otherwise youre treating specifically loyalist space marine subfactions as more important than ENTIRE FACTIONS its already insane with space wolves having more unique models than some xenos and chaos factions (not counting knights) like its ridiculous. they are subfactions if we're changing anything it should be all space marines in one codex, one faction, one codex
Haha no. Big 4 will get their rules and you'll be maybe an alternative list in codex marines. They will never go down that road again after 8th.
@@kdhlkjhdlkthis guy hates flavor
I like this, it's perfect for OC chapters that don't want named characters
I wish we had chapter relics though
If someone in my gaming group tried to bring this cheese to the table they'd be called a weedy git! "Technically" it's genius for a tourney player but for people who actually love the storytelling and lore of this setting it's just sad.
How is it sad ? I hate it when people twist the wording but this ain’t the case with this its clear as day what the meaning is and I don’t see the issue this allows us divergent chapters to play a different play style melee tank or snooty or a mix nothing worse than being stuck in a specific play style
GW did say they didn't want people to worry about their colour of space toys. Not every codex compliant chapter has the same strengths; some have wildly specific functions and skills. I could quite happily see a shock assault based Ultramarines successor having some really good melee strengths, giving rise to them taking the Blood Angels detachment but still only fielding codex compliant units. Although I was a fan of 9ths way of making Marine chapter rules, being able to pick and choose from two lists.
What no one is taking about is how you can’t take Deathwatch as an ally and get the +1 to wound but you can take ally Greyknights and still get the oath buff.
GW never made a distinction between index or codex deathwatch units despite one not getting oath of moment rules and one that does.
As a new Blood Angel player, who just run an list without any blood angel units, I can say that the non-Bangel Bangel do have some competitive play but they are probably not good as the Ultramarine. To the people who are unhappy about it, please remeber that in the blood angel codex which only has 15 datasheets, about half (7) of them (DC with bolt rifle, DC on foot, DC jumppacks, DC captain on foot, DC captain jump pack, blood angel capatin, DC dreadnought) are just space marine units + upgrade. It is totally logical that the BA use +1 wound as they are just painted red.:D
In theory it could be prevented by adding a rule to divergent detachments along the lines of "this detachment confers the [divergent chapter] keyword to units" thereby preventing the loophole
Make divergent chapters their own armies again!
Thousand sons, dearhguard, world eaters and emperors children agree with you
@jaimevilacastro4614 I mean, if we're talking about them, give them their own vehicles/monsters, not just the normal chaos tanks and daemon machines.
I got to admit I miss the old days when divergent chapters got their own CODEX instead of a supplement.
Sure, space wolves or blood angels wouldnt be able to take certain units, but that gave you reasons to play vanilla Marines, where they have basically removed all of that.
3:58 I swear I saw someone talking about this loophole RIGHT after the balance update was released and figuratively screaming at GW to update ALL divergent chapters' datasheets to fix this.
Ultramarines should be a codex non compliant ik that sounds dumb but the amount they have over literally every other codex compliant chapter is ridiculous
It all comes down to how many unique characters/units you have and how powerful they are. Ultramarines were strong *before* the change, now they're one of the best armies in the game.
@@Xynth25 and it’s gonna cause every other space marine chapter to be nerfed into the ground. It’s literally the same as what was happening w divergent chapters before the change
They have 4 special characters, and you compare it to whole supplement book with rules and like 30 datasheets?
@Klierowski When those characters are as strong as Guilliman, Calgar, and Uriel Ventris are? Yes.
@ it’s not the same extent of a problem but it’s the same problem. Why tf would u take any other chapter that has literally a quarter of the unique datasheets
Some people in this thread are simultaneously claiming thst they do this "for the fluff because they want to represent their custom chapter" and that they cannot just play their divergent chapter as intended because then they would be at a disadvantage.
Just say that you are trying to minmax like everybody else, but you are too coward to admit it, so you need to hide behind "fluff".
Oh, yeah, you CERTAINLY need +1 to wound AND +2S to play your custom chapter based on BA. It has nothing to do with it being broken, you just want "the fluff".
"But i dont want to use any of the named characters or spwcial units because... Eh.. reasons, it is not like i could simply change the name of the character to make it a different person, as that would break the immersion".
So why dont you use codex detachments then, painting your minis in red, a d calling them wtf you want?
Well, because you want the +2S +1A from liberators.
Like, come on. You are just tricking yourself, the rest of us see past the BS easily.
I have my own order of Sisters. I just picked the rules that seemed the more appropiate and changed colour schemes, names, etc.
I don't need to trick anyone by saying that i truly really need BoF detschment but also the effect of the penitent host and the enhancements and strats of Hallowd Martyrs because it is really the only way to represent the order how i envision it (broken af, that is)
I think its fair, literally just gives more flavor to both the divergent chapters and the core book, and will sell just as many 'normal' kits. For Black Templars players to take it, for example, they have to give up half their tanks, their named characters, their sword brethren, and their crusader squads. Ultramarines dont have to give up their named characters, nor do Salamanders. For that, we get to use our detachment rules, which are good and can combo well, but theyre hardly game breaking, and you lose a lot of stuff to be able to do that. There is a deliberate choice and a payoff to make. and I like that. Brings back some thought into designing a list!
Non-divergent chapters can also run LAG detachment so I really see no issue here balance-wise. In fact, a codex-compliant chapter running the BA detachement is probably the only way a generic chapter can compete with the Ultramarines who got all the toys, buff to Guilliman AND the OoM buff
It definitely helped my Anvil list out this past weekend. 3-2 with only one blowout loss (really bad matchup when you pick up 10 terminators before you even get your first turn).
As a BA player, get rid of Oath army wide, and Give us Strength and Attacks buff for all detachments
i agree, there is so much to gain for that
+ helps the weaker detachments that lack “punch” like lost and host
+ easier balancing bc they act more independently
+ gives more identity as THE prime melee marines
+ no weird overlaps like oath and death company auto reroll hits
Hear me out. Outside of the tournament scene, this seems like a really cool way to field custom chapters. Imagine new BA successors with the doctrines, but no access to Baal armories. Or BT successors commissioned by High Lords, without doctrinal imput from BT. This could be amazing for special play. As a fun of non special character your own make fluff, this seems fun. OUTSIDE TOURNAMNETS. I have given up on GW balance.
Outside of tournaments you can do wtf you want, so whether they change this or not will not affect you at all.
Also, you do not need rules to creatw your custom chapter, just take the normal rules and apply fluff to them.
This has to be pathed because it is a balabce nightmare. It was intended to give non divergent chapters a boost to catch up with divergent chapters, not to increase the overall power level of SM, already the most powerful macrofaction in the game.
Dude, I gave uo on GW balance. I tried Sm, custards. Death guard. Every game in 10th felt like a gotcha, I won only one game and enjoyed none. I guess what you are saying, however, is that GW is incapable of balancing the game. It relies on shit balance to fuel impulse sales by competitive whales.
@@tomaskapel2287 What I am saying is that if you want to use this rule outside of tournaments (as you mentioned), there is nobody stopping you, no matter what GW does.
You are the one mentioning "outside tournaments". Did you just forget or is this more like a labyrinth than a train of thought?
@@tomaskapel2287 If you have played that many games of 10th and you didn't enjoyed a single one, either you are the problem or you should just stop? Why are you putting yourself through this? Is GW holding you hostage? Go and play other edition, or other game. Not sure why you felt the need to tell us your sad story, but it doesn't change the point that I am trying to make: Small details of balance only matter for tournaments. For amateur games between friends, it is as simple as "Hey, let's not abuse this rule." "Ok bet". It is really that simple. We have plenty of house rules because we enjoyed the games more in that way. So far GW hasn't sent any squad to silence us.
Nah just wanted to share... i am used to having to bend the rules and rulesets to best match forces... like using greynight rules a long time ago to play 1ksons (before they had an army). I can understand tournament community frustrations. I share them, I have just given up. Considering that competitive armies change every 3months, and there is very little chance to model+paint+play and work and parent, I am clearly not the target demo for this game. I have fondness and nostalgia for it, that is why I stick to auxpex. Good luck guys and gals. See you at the OPR/firefight table...we got beer/pizza
13:46 THIS is why you can guarantee it will be patched 😂
Gabriel Seth was right
Hi. Someone who voted it was a good change here. It makes no sense to be unhappy with this change. It opens the game up for more creative lists. It in no way means Divergent Chapter special units are bad, just because people are trying new things at the highest level doesn’t mean you have to.
You now get to think about what matters more in list building individual unit power or OoM power. That’s cool.
Given what I know of GW and my historical experience with them, I would argue that there is no way this was intentional. First, GW would never push a playstyle that actively incentivizes NOT using chapter specific models. It's completely counter to their "sell, sell and sell some more" mentality. Second, let's be real: 10th has been a very mixed bag and nowhere else is this more evident than with rules failings like this. With the Q&A team effectively a thing of the past, more and more glaring things like this are slipping through the cracks. Can all but guarantee this is "patched" within the next 3 months.
Its totally fine. You sacrifice the cool models that make your faction. In some instances, you give up enhancements too (templar Gmas). No boosted oath if you bring shrike for your raven guard then.
The real problem is Ultramarines get this with their dozen epic heroes.
They better rewrite every bloody dark angels detachment soon, they suck
I think Lions Blade is a very good detachment with alot of utility
Damn. Company of Hunters is great now
As someone who fluffed BA as loyalist World Eaters in earlier editions but never ran unique units, I'm a big fan of this quirk personality.
If they want core codex chapters to be better, just give them more units to play with. The Horus Heresy has plenty of unique units they could pull from;
- Every chapter has their own Terminators and Characters.
- All the Heresy-Era vehicles could be turned into unique units, like the Baal Predator. A lazy option, sure, but so many chapters are forced to use generic Space Marine vehicles to get any Heavy Support.
- Imperial Fists have Phalanx Warders. Though they could use some standard Breachers as well.
- White Scars have Stormseers, Golden Keshig, Ebon Keshig, Falcon's Claws and Karaoghlanlar. They even have their own variant of Land Speeder, but GW would probably turn it into a Storm Speeder.
- Salamanders have Pyroclasts and Sanctifier Squads.
- Raven Guard have Mor Dythan and Dark Furies. But I think they could have a better Upgrade Kit too. They're the Navy Seals Marines, not the Edgy Emo Marines. That honorable title goes to the...
- Iron Hands, who have Medusan Immortals, Helfathers, Morlocks, and several Iron Fathers besides Feirros. I also think there should be a "Bionics" Upgrade Kit, though it doesn't need to be Iron Hands-themed. Just a bunch of prosthetic arms and legs for Terminators, Gravis, Tacticus and Phobos Marines. Iron Hands would enjoy it the most, but any chapter could get some use out of it.
I assumed taking the divergent detachments gave the Marines the associated chapter keyword. Adding that would be better, I think. And I say that as someone who actually already didn't play any BA specific units
TL;DW
Tying Chapter keywords to unique characters instead of the supplement they use was going to backfire from the start, and they’ve backed themselves into a corner using it because that’s how codex compliant chapters get their unique characters as well.
The change was a great move by GW to help the codex marines, but as per usual they only thought HALFWAY through it. If its supposed to be for codex marines, rule the others out. For any non-codex detachment all they had to do was add "All units in this detactment gain the *specific non-dex chapter here* when selected for this detachment" for each and every one.
I don't see anything stopping folk making generic armies with different detachment rules regardless of the paint job. They can just be successors.
Super freaking awesome video. I kind weary like dis. keep It up!
divergent chapters should just have different army rules and give good oath to standard ones
40k players can't decide if they love or hate soup after all
I think it's more of an issue that GW have really been fleshing out the playstyles of only certain chapters. No one wants to build a ravenguard army when the most unique thing they get is Kayvon. "Codex compliant" Marines need 1 or 2 unique kits for each of the other original legions to give them proper flavor and if you want to bring those units you have to bring a certain detachment. Simplicity of army construction can unfortunately no longer co-exist with Space Marines because of how many different kits they have with some special colored ones having rules that are just better.
The conversation probably ended with "..yeah, I guess-but why would anyone do that?". I can imagine finding this sort of loophole just isn't on their minds when making changes.
I remember when I started 9th, I thought it was quite clever how my units already had the heretic astartes keyword, gained the thousand sons keyword when I chose them, and gained a cult keyword when I chose one of the cults.
I'm honestly baffled to hear this isn't how it works elsewhere. you'd think that when you assemble your army list, upon choosing your chapter to gain access to its special rules, all your generic space marine units would also gain that chapter keyword
I was shocked how much of a difference the change has made. Playing as chaos knight against a list heavy with twin linked weapons, the amount of bolter and flamer damage going through was ridiculous
Serves you right for playing such a trash army as chaos knights
Marine winrate will always be skewed since its the "beginner army". So if you're only looking at winrates youneed to to add 5-10% to get a feel for their relative power.
I am a little sad that I agree it should go away.
Ive been playing Unforgiven Task Force with it. And it's the only thing keeping me above water.
It’s an easy fix tho.. they just have to rule that in order to take a divergent chapter detachment you must have at least one unit with that divergent chapters keyword.
Easy fix with a single errata. Just update the detachments to grant the chapter keyword to all units when you use it.
Great video! Yes I agree this loophole needs closed immediately. The intention behind this rule is being manipulated. It needs to only be playable by the codex chapters using only the codex detachments.
Eh, I'm pretty sure we went into 10th Edition that you could paint your models how you want but it wouldn't affect detachments etc so I don't really see the issue with this rule.
Not every divergent chapter needs to always need the unique characters or units but then you do also not get to run the models you potentially like or want in your list
I honestly think having fewer named chars fielded is great for fluff and immersion
The Detachments are made for the codex they are used for the rule the army rule is just that the codex army rule you cant be thinking its ok for Space Marines to swap between codexes and mix them up while not being fully ok whit Chaos to do the same
@ All subfactions being able to use any detachment is also what GW prouded themselves with on edition launch. Punishing people for doing it in Marines would be silly.
Exactly someone gets it
Quick fix should easily just be limited to when you select the army. If you select blood angels, the + 1 W automatically is gone. This loophole is nuts
I recall seeing a designers note from one of the non-codex chapter detachments stating that all Marines in said Detachment were considered to have the keyword of said non-codex chapter.
If that was the design intent why DOUBLE DOWN on the loop hole?!
GW: how can we tweak the rules to sell more miniatures?
Math Hammer guys: how can we sacrifice the lore and spirit of the game to min/max the hell out of rules to win, win, win!!!
Everyone: WTF, dude???
#1 - either retract RG's power up, or increase his cost to reflect his interaction with OoM (and I'm saying this as a Smurf player)
#2 - restrict the OoM buff to armors using the formations "of the Codex", as in just the ones from Space Marines. It limits this type of abuse AND is fluff compliant, since the Codex Astartes is supposed to be a work of tactical and strategic genius. That makes it so divergents can choose to be their unique snowflake selves with the attendant enhancements OR toe the Codex line and get the OoM buff, not both.
These BOTH need done.
If you are imperial fists and use anvil gets new oath? I buy this concept yes
Oh boy more loopholes… this is why I don’t miss playing tabletop 40k.
It’s not a loophole it’s a rule working as intended and nobody is seriously mad about it.
If it is intentional, it would be good for GW to confirm it's intentional so that we don't have to keep giving these lists the side eye.
If it is an accident and they don't want it, then hopefully they correct it soon.
They could also just let the divergent chapters have the buff inside of their own detachments potentially
I could see it get errata'd out. More codex-compliant chapters could also probably use more characters (outside of proxying as UM), though - even if just to carve out a niche.
Honestly, from a balance perspective, I say let it cook. If it turns out super Oath divergent chapters are running wild, it only proves that their detachment rules are inherently too strong on top of a more diverse selection of datasheets.
Blood angels player here, GW should buff our unique units and remove the option of using divergent detachments w/ Super Oath.
Also, bring back my librarian dread!
Me and a buddy played my World Eaters with Vessels of Wrath against his Black Templars (generic). Had he deployed a bit better it would’ve been closer, but Juggalord with VoW and 6 E8B is insane.
Ultramarines probably didn't need the oath boost. They're just as good as the divergent chapters in terms of unique datasheets. They're easily top of all the marine factions at the moment
I think it shouldn't be a thing. I think the way to fix it is to say that if you run a divergent chapter detachment OR if you run any divergent units, then you can't use it. It's probably a miss and I can't for the life of me believe that GW was sitting there going "yes, we should let Blood Angels get +1 to wound along with their shenanigans".
I can see how it would affect others negatively, but as a Raptors enjoyer, i like running generic lists anyway. gaining access to more detachments is not only more fun for me but also on brand for the strategically open-minded "sensible marines".
I see absolutely no issues with "codex compliant" divergent chapter armies. Its fine and its fun. The only change that is absolutely valid, is to lock out Ultramarines.