I thought the people shouting nonsense were extremely rude. Tony is one of Ireland's most respected traditional musicians and has a right to his opinion. He was asked for his opinion and he gave it. There are many in the trad community who would agree with him.
No better man to give an opinion about Irish music either !!a legend of Irish music..he knows what he's talking about....R.I.P tony MC mahon.. 💚💛❤️🍀🍀🍀💯💪💚💛❤️
@@waynerainsford2825 Well said. They WERE being rude. Tony McMahon was an AUTHORITY on Irish music and knew exactly what he was talking about. Irish music has changed enormously in the last 40-years. But it is what it is. New influences will constantly come in, young players will enjoy what they hear and will, accordingly, incorporate said influences into their own playing.
Tony McMahon is one of the best pure Irish musicians. He is absolutely right about what he says on the matter of innovation. It's just a pity he gets himslef into hot water on some matters that do not involve him but theres no takin away from him. . . A true legend in our music and one to be respected.
He is right. There are too many different international influences in Irish music these days. This clip is from a Late Late Show' river of sound special broadcast in 1995. Tony Mc'Mahon was talking about a piece of modern original music specially composed for the river of sound series. it was actually the river of sound theme tune. You can tell that he was trying to be nice about it' but it really got up his nose.
I find I agree with most of what Mr Macmahon says, though I know he has got it wrong sometimes when his passionate feelings do not translate well into words. I always admire his courage in stating unpopular opinions in the face of much rudeness and ridicule, and despite his own embarrassment at putting himself out there. Respect to him!
In defence of the (post) modern trends in Irish music, it is the fast playing rythmic virtuosic bands which attracted me to Trad. 25 years on I cannot stand backers and fast players and prefer the music without accompaniment. Tony McMahon is right Irish music is lyrical and contemplative in nature. After all it isn't an extrovert's music but very much an introvert's one.
@dancingfeetylem Well, I was predominantly referring to the music and dance traditions here, but traditions like storytelling, Sean-nos singing, kitchen sessions and others are slowly ebbing with the times. I'm a Singaporean learning Irish music by ear, and it puts me closer to the heart of the tradition. I'd love to learn Gaelic just to learn Sean-nos singing!
Great posts here Thanks We are having this very debate on Facebook in Traditional Irish Music group. Huge genius innovations then returning to the tunes traditional style if I'm even allowed to say that now
@UISTMAN59 The most important differences between an Irish and "Balkan" bouzouki are: 1.tuning. 2:bodyshape.(the Irish bouzouki has a flat body-back,while the other is bowl-shaped).
@spunnek75 Thanks for the reply. To take the second point first, I should think that the body shape doesn't affect the players ability to play tunes. If there's a difference in the tuning, does that mean that there are some tunes you can play on one and not the other? For example any fiddle can be tuned AEAE, is the same not true of bouzukis?
@dancingfeetylem I wholeheartedly believe in what Tony said. Nevertheless, I understand that modernisation is inevitable, and it isn't bad. Modernisation shows the changes in the way people express themselves in the tradition with the times, and I'm okay with it. What I'm not okay, however is that with modernisation, people are too caught up with the modern, many do not care for the older sound any more. Some don't even know about it.
@deterdettol well I'm glad that there are people holding up the torch for what they believe to be a less modern approach there has probably always been two camps (innovators traditionalists)in any style of music.look at the way the blues changed from the acoustic south to electric Chicago.I think a fiddle player from the turn of the century was probably not as aware of his own regional style as we would be!
@spunnek75 I think you are right . What are the differences between "Irish bouzouki" and "non-Irish bouzouki" or what are the differences between "Irish tenorbanjo" and "non-Irish tenorbanjo"please tell? O I see - it depends on whether they are playing Irish music or not! Bah Humbug!!!
A lot of modern Irish & Scottish music sounds too mechanical and polished to me. There's some very impressive technique but the perfection seems to have edged out the soul. It's not that I don't like impressive technique or modern arrangements, I just feel that older "modern" bands like Planxty, Ossian and Jock Tamson's Bairns always managed to combine impressive technique, modern arrangements AND soul. The best folk has a roughness around the edges. The subtle quirks and styles of each musician in the band creates beautiful textures, and a more carefree approach results in many a happy accident. I find that the older stuff has far more longevity because there's so much more to latch onto. You're always noticing new stuff in the music and it's very engaging. With a lot of modern Celtic music I find myself being impressed on the first listen but then on subsequent listenings I find my mind wandering.
The man is fuckin' right !! If I want to listen to Greek music I will listen to Greek music. If I want to listen to Irish music I will listen to Irish music. I don't want to hear a mix of them.
As far as I'm concerned the point he makes here goes without saying. Everyone knows Flatley and the likes are just chancers. The point about the regional quality would be totally lost on a Late Late Show audience. Regional styles have been preserved in recordings and transcriptions so they won't be lost. I wouldn't define modern day players based on their regional background though.
No, his views did not stray out of context. Yes, everything in this world now is subjected to advancement. However, in this case traditional aspect are fast being lost. Tangible examples like the fading of regional styles and the introduction of polished clean, prim-and-proper, clinical playing of many of our current Irish folk music bands (which juxtapose against the rough, unpolished sounds of the old music tradition).
@dancingfeetylem Also, I'd like to address your reply, here is a quote by a very famous and awesome flute player, Seamus Tansey. Here, he was referring to Kerry slides and polkas: "Perhaps you thought they were not traditional. Well, they’re not. Authentically, they all came in from Scotland. But... would have been more authentic, and over the years it is more Irish now..." The way he expressed his quote might be a sweeping statement, but I guess I can understand what he meant by saying it.
@greymatter1984 I do remember the performance to which he was reacting and it's not the Eileen Ivers dance piece. It was a sort of vocal sonic thing, with a young boy of about 8 or 9 singing the lead. My feeling at the time was the people boo-ing his views were probably doing so because the lad sining in the main part was so young. I have this on video somewhere and if I can find it I'll put it up. Overall, I remember this as being a great episode (Late Late).
For me, the main problem about the modernization of the music is not the bands we have today. I feel the main problem is Riverdance and Lord of the Dance. They perpetuate the modernized sounds of Irish traditional music, rather than the traditional Irish traditional music (note my use of words here). Granted that they are commended for bringing Irish culture to the world, but still that's the modern ideas of traditional music and dance spread across the world.
In a transcribed speech delivered by Tony MacMahon (this very inteviewee in this video) at an Irish music conference in Dublin, circa 1996, he said this: "its quite another to railroad people in the public eye and the pop music business who know little or nothing about this music into speaking up for CHANGE and DEVELOPEMENT , when they clearly illustrate ignorance as to what it is that requires change.
After all, what person depending on being loved by the public in one way or another, would speak up against change, when presented with leading questions on TV ?"
Tony you are totally right this is not Irish traditional music by any stretch of the imagination, in fact its a different genre of music. Good music will stand the test of time. I think it says a lot more about the understanding Mr O Sullivan has about Irish traditional music
As Tony had said, modern music as he quoted, helps to portray Ireland to the world as a country with its unique and wonderful traits. However, now everybody thinks Irish dance consists of Riverdance-style dancing; ask your friend what is Sean-nos dancing and he'll probably don't know what is it (you'd probably not know either). The media knows in the present day and age, the modern sounds appeals to the modern taste, not the old styles. Thus, their deliberate selection of such to be aired.
@deterdettol Also, as part of my learning via listening, I also had my Lunasa listening material for me to learn about the new times, and yes they are very, very good! But to me, is it a holistic example of the tradition? Not really.
Does anyone know what performance Tony is referring to in this discussion? Personally I think he's right, he sees things changing at an alarming rate but it has come around somewhat. I dont think he sounds like a sad old man at all, it's understandable that he fears the loss of the tradition to a new evolved style. Lets not forget that he has played & worked with most of the great Irish traditional musicians of the past half-century so he knows more about the topic than any of us ever will.
Well it isn't as apparent to people in Ireland as it is outside of it. At sessions overseas you'll nearly never hear a setting that isn't on some record by the trendy names such as Bothy Band, Chieftains and the like. If you happen to have gotten your music in Ireland and start a tune that the locals have a different twist on you'll be overran with their way. It isn't anybody's fault, it's just the way things have turned out. But now people are tired of the fast playing and songs are back! :)
The modernization of Irish folk music is inevitable. However, what Tony is implying here is that the old traditions, which really clearly defines the folk music roots and what the music is all about, are being forgotten, forgotten fast.
@spunnek75 Nothing wrong with tenor banjo at all..one of my boyhood idols was the late Noel Strange (Banjo Mandolin). Music must develop/evolve ...bt there is much very conservative on the trad scene....try playing a Boehm flute!! Recently I was taken to task for playing a tune in a different key ...when I told my accuser I could also play it in his key ...there was a noticable silence!
Tony was entirely correct. And the watering down of the real irish tradition (as opposed to 'trad' the use of which has hastened the slide) has continued fast with the Commercialisation of Fleadh cheoil na hÉireann by allowing fleadh TV to rule the roost. I watched it happen and drew attention to it in my book Fawcett's fleadh.
@KevKli3 tradition will only survive outside of the museum if it is allowed to breathe Greek and Irish music have probably been bouncing of each other in an indirect way for the past thousand years long may they do so
journalofmusic com/article/217 An opnion regarding the tradtion vs. innovtion debate, by Martin Hayes, son of accomplished Clare fiddler P J Hayes and leader of the Tulla ceili band.
@KevKli3 Totally with you Kev. McMahon is a class antidote to the appalling Sharon Shannon school of trad. He and Tansey know something more. Fair fucks to you Kev.
@dancingfeetylem Also, I personally wouldn't call Tony MacMahon a 'custodian'. Granted he is trying to 'defend tradition' to the hills, but custodian? Not really. He is just trying to say what he feels, that tradition is being lost. And besides, why matter about him? He's one of the many 'hardcore' traditionalists but actually one of the few who speaks out. So with that saying, I prefer to call him an 'advocate'.
I play the button box just like Tony does right, i don't live in Ireland right i live in England i've played as a youngster in a ceili band at the all Ireland fleadh so i've been brought up with traditional Irish music but i will try and emulate from old tapes, CD's, DVD's whatever the artist or preformers that i like. So i am guilty according to Tony of not keeping tradition by not sticking to an area of Ireland and learning that style aren't i?
Hahah Tony is the Guardian of Irish Traditional music! This purist is a famed button accordeonplayer,and a criticaster with his ´subtile´way with words...calling Alec Finn a second rate musician...
I wasn't commenting on the music before but the dancing. The music is rough and harsh for the man's graceful steps, they don't quiet match up. I was only commenting on the dancing in the previous video. There definitely is a sweeter, gentler lilt to the music lost with the Bazuki and the Heavy skinned Bohdran, especially to match the dancing. The Bohdran player's hand was heavy as well. And Irish should stay Irish if it is to be portrayed that way. Though I do find beauty in all.
@deterdettol Also, I'm not sure as to your earlier discussions, that's why I'm finding it difficult to understand your point about Irish music loosing its 'softness'. Perhaps you can explain. Anyway, let me just say that through my experiences learning Irish music, I've been led to feel so much for the more traditional styles that I'm for the preservation of it. I also like Tony McMahon a lot, but I'm not as 'far right' as him.
There is much in what Mc is on about.....much can be lost ...he is not great on specifics ..tone, tempo , rhythm, sound colouring , appropriateness in ornamentation, use of dynamics etc ....but it is good to see development taking place ...the older playes talked about these things though generaly not in a systematic way.
@deterdettol I also have a lot of respect and admiration for Irish dance music Sean-nos singing etc, and would feel the loss if such things were to die out. but I do have a real problem with the self appointed custodians of any form of folk art.You may not like it but country music is as valid as a form of oral tradition in Ireland as Donegal fiddle music is.I personally hate most modern jazz but I am pleased people play it. Good music is always resilient. long may it evolve
@deterdettol I have no argument in people trying to keep alive the les commercial side of the music but as we not living in a pre modern society it is very difficult get into the mindset of where the tradition actually exists.I think to often the 'event' where player none player contribute to the party is lacking from the trad scene.musicians focusing a bit to much on the music and not the magic of the night.I feel that playing for dancing is the closest I get in touch with the old ways
@dancingfeetylem Don't mind that I comment further, because actually I didn't really want to continue in this discussion further but I find your comments quite interesting. I do not know what you mean by what you said that thanks to riverdance, Irish music has come a full circle, and sessions and national appropriation being the worst things to happen to it.
Well I hear and see quite a bit of Ireland in it but unquestionably it's a vast departure from the "tradition". Keep in mind that the elders of every society always lament the loss of old ways and MacMahon's comments are in part, an expression of that mindset. While I didn't fancy much the dancing or Eileen's playing (she is great though), ironically it's this kind of "innovation" that might actually help preserve the tradition.
@KevKli3 I don't think there is a form of music in Europe that is not informed or influenced by other kinds of music!and if we look for 'pure' Irish folk are we then to talk about a form of music based on binary improvisations on a harp from the early middle ages the sort of which is only now played in scotland on pipes and wales on harp because jigs reels hornpipes all can be sourced Quite clearly as dance styles outside of Ireland.
Wonder what he thinks of it now, load of bollocks if you ask me, it will be back again some day though, sure even the songs that the Clancy brothers sang were around for eons before them, and going over to America the songs got a new lease of life, a breath of fresh air, and i think thats what will happen again.
He couldn't BE more correct! There's a very fine divide now (and there's NOTHING wrong with saying so) between *Irish* traditional music, and *Celtic* music. Period. Irish traditional music is not Lunasa, it's not Michael Flatley, it's not these pre-arranged, flippity music that you hear from so many bands - and there's nothing wrong with that! Trad music is just what it says - TRADITIONAL. There's nothing traditional about Elleen Ivers players, end of discussion.
Gerard Lord commercialism has spread like a cancer through our music. You even look at the recitals at the last safe refuges for real trad music and their littered with people who have no comprehension of how to play Irish music and simply play the tune from start to finish. I may not be a very good musician myself but I'd like to think I respect the traditions better than the supposed good musicians around these days.
@@briancrehan9757 Muppa creeno, fancy seeing you here. it's a quarter to 4 of a Saturday in the morning and I'm half scuttered off an ogra call down a tony McMahon rabbit hole. You tell em with all that fandangled shite that do be put out now. Sure be the jaysus if auld Seamus Ennis was alive he'd whip the hoors with an ashplant untill they were shitting the smell of a trad session in quilty of a hot Summer's day. Mup the rearguard and Tony McMahon. Mup the C#/D and them Clare reels in E minor
If I get it correct I can see the good man his point of view,but I think he is taking this issue way out of proportion..obviously MacMahon hates the use of the Irish bouzouki in Irish trad. music.I play Irish tenorbanjo. The tenorbanjo is origine of Afro-America,and became famous in early jazz, so what in a sense makes an instrument typical Irish.? to me it is all evolution.
I don't think Tony McMahon would object to a bouzouki playing tunes. He doesn't seem to like backers even though I have seen him play with Steve Cooney. The banjo became part of the tradition probably to allow plucked string players to join in sessions and be heard - try playing a mandolin in a (large) session.
Audience wait your turn let the man speak ignorant feckers! just because you dont agree with his opinion have manners and wait your turn. I happen to agree with him most of what we have today isn't great and sounds very monotonous. Now i'm no fan of the old ITM snobbery which is everywhere with the snarky who you know and i'm better than you so you cant play with me in a session etc This is abound in Ireland and further afield you may not have encountered it yet but give it time you will. I love the music unfortunately not always the people who are playing it lol I also can see why various musical styles are coming into play as the music adapts to what is now worldwide and it is transcending the tradition due to the remarkable ease in which we can travel across borders today. Unfortunately to make money or to have a successful career in this type of music means now a days looks pulling these influences in is a modern necessity
So when did Irish music start to loose its 'softness'was it when flutes became affordable because classical players switched to the Boehm System ?or with the introduction of the box ?or with the recordings of Michael Coleman?was it when peasants could afford a fiddle? or when people stopped dancing at crossroads or the kitchen and it moved to the pub session?At what point does it start or stop being authentic?or regional?or national? amateur or pro?leave dogma to the taliban
don`t know what the fuss is all about. the most popular music in ireland by far is country and western...has been for years. the influence of the b western cowboy films in the 1940`s, 1950,s and 1960`s can`t be underestimated....mind you, it`s fairly awful stuff and fair play to the likes of tony and others who champion our native ,music.
@deterdettol see I'm not sure what the old sound is.but i think I can guess as to what the old feel of the happening was.I do have an issue with what he says because of the way he poo poos the music as commercial tinsel and links the innovators with the loss of the roots of the music.It may be that the roots he is talking about is something to do with his generation and locality.A 20 or a 80 year old may have a different experience of source authenticity.musicians die !
most of all my problem is that even now 2010 I am teaching kids trad music who would never have had the slightest interest if river dance hadn't happened! authentic Irish music of the sort Tony MacMahon plays was DANCE music a generation before he started to play and thanks to river dance it has come full circle! sessions and national appropriation were possibly the worst thing to happen to this music
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I thought the people shouting nonsense were extremely rude. Tony is one of Ireland's most respected traditional musicians and has a right to his opinion. He was asked for his opinion and he gave it. There are many in the trad community who would agree with him.
Exactly. RIP Tony
No better man to give an opinion about Irish music either !!a legend of Irish music..he knows what he's talking about....R.I.P tony MC mahon.. 💚💛❤️🍀🍀🍀💯💪💚💛❤️
@@waynerainsford2825 Well said. They WERE being rude. Tony McMahon was an AUTHORITY on Irish music and knew exactly what he was talking about. Irish music has changed enormously in the last 40-years. But it is what it is. New influences will constantly come in, young players will enjoy what they hear and will, accordingly, incorporate said influences into their own playing.
Tony McMahon is one of the best pure Irish musicians. He is absolutely right about what he says on the matter of innovation. It's just a pity he gets himslef into hot water on some matters that do not involve him but theres no takin away from him. . . A true legend in our music and one to be respected.
He is right. There are too many different international influences in Irish music these days. This clip is from a Late Late Show' river of sound special broadcast in 1995. Tony Mc'Mahon was talking about a piece of modern original music specially composed for the river of sound series. it was actually the river of sound theme tune. You can tell that he was trying to be nice about it' but it really got up his nose.
I agree with Tony as well. A very interesting clip!
I find I agree with most of what Mr Macmahon says, though I know he has got it wrong sometimes when his passionate feelings do not translate well into words. I always admire his courage in stating unpopular opinions in the face of much rudeness and ridicule, and despite his own embarrassment at putting himself out there. Respect to him!
Tony is Fabulous ❤️
In defence of the (post) modern trends in Irish music, it is the fast playing rythmic virtuosic bands which attracted me to Trad. 25 years on I cannot stand backers and fast players and prefer the music without accompaniment. Tony McMahon is right Irish music is lyrical and contemplative in nature. After all it isn't an extrovert's music but very much an introvert's one.
A master and inspiring and poetic thinker
Tony is spot on
Well spoken, Mr. MacMahon! Down with this sort of thing
@dancingfeetylem Well, I was predominantly referring to the music and dance traditions here, but traditions like storytelling, Sean-nos singing, kitchen sessions and others are slowly ebbing with the times. I'm a Singaporean learning Irish music by ear, and it puts me closer to the heart of the tradition. I'd love to learn Gaelic just to learn Sean-nos singing!
a true legend of Irish tradition
Great posts here Thanks We are having this very debate on Facebook in Traditional Irish Music group. Huge genius innovations then returning to the tunes traditional style if I'm even allowed to say that now
Glad to see you posted this!
I would love to hear what was being heard!
@UISTMAN59 The most important differences between an Irish and "Balkan" bouzouki are: 1.tuning. 2:bodyshape.(the Irish bouzouki has a flat body-back,while the other is bowl-shaped).
He is talking about the music/dance in the video response below the clip frame -Tradition v Innovation at the top of the page.
Good man Tony!
@spunnek75 Thanks for the reply. To take the second point first, I should think that the body shape doesn't affect the players ability to play tunes. If there's a difference in the tuning, does that mean that there are some tunes you can play on one and not the other? For example any fiddle can be tuned AEAE, is the same not true of bouzukis?
Here here!
I think that if anyone could make Tony laugh,
his smile would crack and burst the corners of his mouth..
Tony your 100% right
Agree; and said well.
@dancingfeetylem I wholeheartedly believe in what Tony said. Nevertheless, I understand that modernisation is inevitable, and it isn't bad. Modernisation shows the changes in the way people express themselves in the tradition with the times, and I'm okay with it. What I'm not okay, however is that with modernisation, people are too caught up with the modern, many do not care for the older sound any more. Some don't even know about it.
@deterdettol
well I'm glad that there are people holding up the torch for what they believe to be a less modern approach there has probably always been two camps (innovators traditionalists)in any style of music.look at the way the blues changed from the acoustic south to electric Chicago.I think a fiddle player from the turn of the century was probably not as aware of his own regional style as we would be!
Tony is correct!
@spunnek75 I think you are right . What are the differences between "Irish bouzouki" and "non-Irish bouzouki" or what are the differences between "Irish tenorbanjo" and "non-Irish tenorbanjo"please tell? O I see - it depends on whether they are playing Irish music or not! Bah Humbug!!!
A lot of modern Irish & Scottish music sounds too mechanical and polished to me. There's some very impressive technique but the perfection seems to have edged out the soul. It's not that I don't like impressive technique or modern arrangements, I just feel that older "modern" bands like Planxty, Ossian and Jock Tamson's Bairns always managed to combine impressive technique, modern arrangements AND soul. The best folk has a roughness around the edges. The subtle quirks and styles of each musician in the band creates beautiful textures, and a more carefree approach results in many a happy accident. I find that the older stuff has far more longevity because there's so much more to latch onto. You're always noticing new stuff in the music and it's very engaging. With a lot of modern Celtic music I find myself being impressed on the first listen but then on subsequent listenings I find my mind wandering.
The man is fuckin' right !!
If I want to listen to Greek music I will listen to Greek music.
If I want to listen to Irish music I will listen to Irish music.
I don't want to hear a mix of them.
Fair play. Who had just played before this, does anyone know?
As far as I'm concerned the point he makes here goes without saying. Everyone knows Flatley and the likes are just chancers. The point about the regional quality would be totally lost on a Late Late Show audience.
Regional styles have been preserved in recordings and transcriptions so they won't be lost. I wouldn't define modern day players based on their regional background though.
No, his views did not stray out of context.
Yes, everything in this world now is subjected to advancement. However, in this case traditional aspect are fast being lost. Tangible examples like the fading of regional styles and the introduction of polished clean, prim-and-proper, clinical playing of many of our current Irish folk music bands (which juxtapose against the rough, unpolished sounds of the old music tradition).
@dancingfeetylem Also, I'd like to address your reply, here is a quote by a very famous and awesome flute player, Seamus Tansey. Here, he was referring to Kerry slides and polkas:
"Perhaps you thought they were not traditional. Well, they’re not. Authentically, they all came in from Scotland. But... would have been more authentic, and over the years it is more Irish now..."
The way he expressed his quote might be a sweeping statement, but I guess I can understand what he meant by saying it.
@greymatter1984 I do remember the performance to which he was reacting and it's not the Eileen Ivers dance piece. It was a sort of vocal sonic thing, with a young boy of about 8 or 9 singing the lead. My feeling at the time was the people boo-ing his views were probably doing so because the lad sining in the main part was so young. I have this on video somewhere and if I can find it I'll put it up. Overall, I remember this as being a great episode (Late Late).
For me, the main problem about the modernization of the music is not the bands we have today. I feel the main problem is Riverdance and Lord of the Dance. They perpetuate the modernized sounds of Irish traditional music, rather than the traditional Irish traditional music (note my use of words here). Granted that they are commended for bringing Irish culture to the world, but still that's the modern ideas of traditional music and dance spread across the world.
Hate all that river shit music . Can't even pick out the melodies. Bollocks
Amen.
In a transcribed speech delivered by Tony MacMahon (this very inteviewee in this video) at an Irish music conference in Dublin, circa 1996, he said this: "its quite another to railroad people in the public eye and the pop music business who know little or nothing about this music into speaking up for CHANGE and DEVELOPEMENT , when they clearly illustrate ignorance as to what it is that requires change.
Click on the clip entitled "Tradition vs. Innovation" and you'll see what Tony was talking about here.
I have to agree.
After all, what person depending on being loved by the public in one way or another, would speak up against change, when presented with leading questions on TV ?"
Tony you are totally right this is not Irish traditional music by any stretch of the imagination, in fact its a different genre of music. Good music will stand the test of time. I think it says a lot more about the understanding Mr O Sullivan has about Irish traditional music
@deterdettol
do you mean Sean-nos singing?
Anyone know what act he was asked about?
As Tony had said, modern music as he quoted, helps to portray Ireland to the world as a country with its unique and wonderful traits. However, now everybody thinks Irish dance consists of Riverdance-style dancing; ask your friend what is Sean-nos dancing and he'll probably don't know what is it (you'd probably not know either). The media knows in the present day and age, the modern sounds appeals to the modern taste, not the old styles. Thus, their deliberate selection of such to be aired.
Have you got a clip of the music his comments were about? This must have been a while ago with Gay Byrne as the presenter.
What band/artist is he talking about?
what went before this?
@deterdettol Also, as part of my learning via listening, I also had my Lunasa listening material for me to learn about the new times, and yes they are very, very good! But to me, is it a holistic example of the tradition? Not really.
Who does he speak about amongst the modern musicians?
Does anyone know what performance Tony is referring to in this discussion? Personally I think he's right, he sees things changing at an alarming rate but it has come around somewhat. I dont think he sounds like a sad old man at all, it's understandable that he fears the loss of the tradition to a new evolved style. Lets not forget that he has played & worked with most of the great Irish traditional musicians of the past half-century so he knows more about the topic than any of us ever will.
Well it isn't as apparent to people in Ireland as it is outside of it. At sessions overseas you'll nearly never hear a setting that isn't on some record by the trendy names such as Bothy Band, Chieftains and the like. If you happen to have gotten your music in Ireland and start a tune that the locals have a different twist on you'll be overran with their way.
It isn't anybody's fault, it's just the way things have turned out.
But now people are tired of the fast playing and songs are back!
:)
Tony is right.
The modernization of Irish folk music is inevitable. However, what Tony is implying here is that the old traditions, which really clearly defines the folk music roots and what the music is all about, are being forgotten, forgotten fast.
From regional areas
@spunnek75 Nothing wrong with tenor banjo at all..one of my boyhood idols was the late Noel Strange (Banjo Mandolin). Music must develop/evolve ...bt there is much very conservative on the trad scene....try playing a Boehm flute!! Recently I was taken to task for playing a tune in a different key ...when I told my accuser I could also play it in his key ...there was a noticable silence!
Tony was entirely correct. And the watering down of the real irish tradition (as opposed to 'trad' the use of which has hastened the slide) has continued fast with the
Commercialisation of Fleadh cheoil na hÉireann by allowing fleadh TV to rule the roost. I watched it happen and drew attention to it in my book Fawcett's fleadh.
@KevKli3
tradition will only survive outside of the museum if it is allowed to breathe Greek and Irish music have probably been bouncing of each other in an indirect way for the past thousand years long may they do so
journalofmusic com/article/217
An opnion regarding the tradtion vs. innovtion debate, by Martin Hayes, son of accomplished Clare fiddler P J Hayes and leader of the Tulla ceili band.
@KevKli3 Totally with you Kev. McMahon is a class antidote to the appalling Sharon Shannon school of trad. He and Tansey know something more. Fair fucks to you Kev.
@dancingfeetylem Also, I personally wouldn't call Tony MacMahon a 'custodian'. Granted he is trying to 'defend tradition' to the hills, but custodian? Not really. He is just trying to say what he feels, that tradition is being lost. And besides, why matter about him? He's one of the many 'hardcore' traditionalists but actually one of the few who speaks out. So with that saying, I prefer to call him an 'advocate'.
I play the button box just like Tony does right, i don't live in Ireland right i live in England i've played as a youngster in a ceili band at the all Ireland fleadh so i've been brought up with traditional Irish music but i will try and emulate from old tapes, CD's, DVD's whatever the artist or preformers that i like.
So i am guilty according to Tony of not keeping tradition by not sticking to an area of Ireland and learning that style aren't i?
Hahah Tony is the Guardian of Irish Traditional music!
This purist is a famed button accordeonplayer,and a criticaster
with his ´subtile´way with words...calling Alec Finn a second rate
musician...
I wasn't commenting on the music before but the dancing. The music is rough and harsh for the man's graceful steps, they don't quiet match up. I was only commenting on the dancing in the previous video. There definitely is a sweeter, gentler lilt to the music lost with the Bazuki and the Heavy skinned Bohdran, especially to match the dancing. The Bohdran player's hand was heavy as well. And Irish should stay Irish if it is to be portrayed that way. Though I do find beauty in all.
@deterdettol Also, I'm not sure as to your earlier discussions, that's why I'm finding it difficult to understand your point about Irish music loosing its 'softness'. Perhaps you can explain.
Anyway, let me just say that through my experiences learning Irish music, I've been led to feel so much for the more traditional styles that I'm for the preservation of it. I also like Tony McMahon a lot, but I'm not as 'far right' as him.
There is much in what Mc is on about.....much can be lost ...he is not great on specifics ..tone, tempo , rhythm, sound colouring , appropriateness in ornamentation, use of dynamics etc ....but it is good to see development taking place ...the older playes talked about these things though generaly not in a systematic way.
@deterdettol I also have a lot of respect and admiration for Irish dance music Sean-nos singing etc, and would feel the loss if such things were to die out.
but I do have a real problem with the self appointed custodians of any form of folk art.You may not like it but country music is as valid as a form of oral tradition in Ireland as Donegal fiddle music is.I personally hate most modern jazz but I am pleased people play it.
Good music is always resilient.
long may it evolve
@deterdettol I have no argument in people trying to keep alive the les commercial side of the music but as we not living in a pre modern society it is very difficult get into the mindset of where the tradition actually exists.I think to often the 'event' where player none player contribute to the party is lacking from the trad scene.musicians focusing a bit to much on the music and not the magic of the night.I feel that playing for dancing is the closest I get in touch with the old ways
@dancingfeetylem Don't mind that I comment further, because actually I didn't really want to continue in this discussion further but I find your comments quite interesting.
I do not know what you mean by what you said that thanks to riverdance, Irish music has come a full circle, and sessions and national appropriation being the worst things to happen to it.
Well I hear and see quite a bit of Ireland in it but unquestionably it's a vast departure from the "tradition". Keep in mind that the elders of every society always lament the loss of old ways and MacMahon's comments are in part, an expression of that mindset. While I didn't fancy much the dancing or Eileen's playing (she is great though), ironically it's this kind of "innovation" that might actually help preserve the tradition.
@KevKli3
I don't think there is a form of music in Europe that is not informed or influenced by other kinds of music!and if we look for 'pure' Irish folk are we then to talk about a form of music based on binary improvisations on a harp from the early middle ages the sort of which is only now played in scotland on pipes and wales on harp
because jigs reels hornpipes all can be sourced Quite clearly as dance styles outside of Ireland.
Wonder what he thinks of it now, load of bollocks if you ask me, it will be back again some day though, sure even the songs that the Clancy brothers sang were around for eons before them, and going over to America the songs got a new lease of life, a breath of fresh air, and i think thats what will happen again.
He couldn't BE more correct! There's a very fine divide now (and there's NOTHING wrong with saying so) between *Irish* traditional music, and *Celtic* music. Period.
Irish traditional music is not Lunasa, it's not Michael Flatley, it's not these pre-arranged, flippity music that you hear from so many bands - and there's nothing wrong with that!
Trad music is just what it says - TRADITIONAL. There's nothing traditional about Elleen Ivers players, end of discussion.
Fortunately traditional music is stronger than ever, even its purest form. That's my belief and I'm a musician.
Gerard Lord commercialism has spread like a cancer through our music. You even look at the recitals at the last safe refuges for real trad music and their littered with people who have no comprehension of how to play Irish music and simply play the tune from start to finish. I may not be a very good musician myself but I'd like to think I respect the traditions better than the supposed good musicians around these days.
@@briancrehan9757 Muppa creeno, fancy seeing you here. it's a quarter to 4 of a Saturday in the morning and I'm half scuttered off an ogra call down a tony McMahon rabbit hole. You tell em with all that fandangled shite that do be put out now. Sure be the jaysus if auld Seamus Ennis was alive he'd whip the hoors with an ashplant untill they were shitting the smell of a trad session in quilty of a hot Summer's day. Mup the rearguard and Tony McMahon. Mup the C#/D and them Clare reels in E minor
If I get it correct I can see the good man his point of view,but I think he is taking this issue way out of proportion..obviously MacMahon hates the use of the Irish bouzouki in Irish trad. music.I play Irish tenorbanjo.
The tenorbanjo is origine of Afro-America,and became famous in early jazz,
so what in a sense makes an instrument typical Irish.?
to me it is all evolution.
Tony did a programme called the green linnet with Barney McKenna. He liked the banjo
I don't think Tony McMahon would object to a bouzouki playing tunes. He doesn't seem to like backers even though I have seen him play with Steve Cooney. The banjo became part of the tradition probably to allow plucked string players to join in sessions and be heard - try playing a mandolin in a (large) session.
Audience wait your turn let the man speak ignorant feckers! just because you dont agree with his opinion have manners and wait your turn. I happen to agree with him most of what we have today isn't great and sounds very monotonous. Now i'm no fan of the old ITM snobbery which is everywhere with the snarky who you know and i'm better than you so you cant play with me in a session etc This is abound in Ireland and further afield you may not have encountered it yet but give it time you will. I love the music unfortunately not always the people who are playing it lol I also can see why various musical styles are coming into play as the music adapts to what is now worldwide and it is transcending the tradition due to the remarkable ease in which we can travel across borders today. Unfortunately to make money or to have a successful career in this type of music means now a days looks pulling these influences in is a modern necessity
So when did Irish music start to loose its 'softness'was it when flutes became affordable because classical players switched to the Boehm System ?or with the introduction of the box ?or with the recordings of Michael Coleman?was it when peasants could afford a fiddle? or when people stopped dancing at crossroads or the kitchen and it moved to the pub session?At what point does it start or stop being authentic?or regional?or national? amateur or pro?leave dogma to the taliban
don`t know what the fuss is all about. the most popular music in ireland by far is country and western...has been for years. the influence of the b western cowboy films in the 1940`s, 1950,s and 1960`s can`t be underestimated....mind you, it`s fairly awful stuff and fair play to the likes of tony and others who champion our native ,music.
@deterdettol see I'm not sure what the old sound is.but i think I can guess as to what the old feel of the happening was.I do have an issue with what he says because of the way he poo poos the music as commercial tinsel and links the innovators with the loss of the roots of the music.It may be that the roots he is talking about is something to do with his generation and locality.A 20 or a 80 year old may have a different experience of source authenticity.musicians die !
most of all my problem is that even now 2010 I am teaching kids trad music who would never have had the slightest interest if river dance hadn't happened!
authentic Irish music of the sort Tony MacMahon plays was DANCE music a generation before he started to play and thanks to river dance it has come full circle! sessions and national appropriation were possibly the worst thing to happen to this music
All innovation and not much tradition...
On the ball back then .. Irish music is a game and fame process. The amount of shit out there is increasing.