I main Black Orcs, have played them the most since they came. You have to think about the mass grab as the movement they lack. Instead of walking to the enemy, you pass them around. It is super fun at High TV. Strong Arm troll for easier one turn td, sneaky git dirty player goblin amonst 7 guard pieces for easy removal. They are difficult to play but they can win vs any team
Well, I would like to see you try it vs any speed team. Sure they 'can' win any match-up, but what are the actual odds? Looking at their statistics, they are in the same winning percentage as Stunties in tournaments and on FUMBBL.
@@JorisVDC they just play really differently than most teams and you need a different mindset. I have more trouble against bashier teams than agile teams. An agile team, you can't really stop them from getting a touchdown but you will play for the draw and have quite a few tools to grind them down and negate their agility. You grab them between your guys to force them to make bad dodges, you foul them to force them to stand up and risk the dodges. Always buy a bribe if you can afford it.
@@JorisVDC againts a speed team they score early because you are destroying their team (7 2/3 dice blocks, stadisticaly, destoys any team, and you can have that from turn 2, or force them to star throwing dodges until they fail) and then, you have a lot of time to score. Protect the ball, slowlly advance and just pass over. Purelly stadisticallly, you have grate posibilities of destroying them. and if you start, make sure they don't have a team to play in the second half, score at 8, and then eather they score fast (and you win 2-1) or they don't, anf you destroy them. Also you throw. i mean, People understimate BO. Being slow is the only thing they are bad at. I will say that, with the exeption of lizars, they can win if you know how to play them, quite probably, againts anyone. ON tabletop, i have a record of something like 70% victories. If they don't broke constantlly your BO line, they are fucked if you know how to play BO.
Black orcs are definitely much better than OWA. I think OWA might be the worst team in the whole of BB let alone BB3, to be fair I don't know what jank you can do with OWA with stars, or a skills package, but to me they just seem awful, whereas I think black orcs are OK.
The difference between running a bunch of Chaos Pact linemen and OWA linemen is that Chaos Pact linemen get better skill access since Mutations are primary for them, which can lead to some interesting options for them. Also Chaos Pact gets an AG 4 ball handler and somehow there are more players with Loner on OWA than on Chaos pact, even though you have 4 big guys to choose from on that team.
Yes! We need the skills guide that will get some discussion going. I broadly agree with you. It is very easy to get +MA for a DElf team and there are lots of good Strength skills to either just buy Guard or take a Random.
I' probably go S with Skaven (rookie/starter.) I would say there is an argument to be made that gutter runners are the current best unit in BB3. Even in BB2 they were likely 2nd only to wardancers. Skaven can pretty easily start with all 4 gutters and you really only have to give up the Rogre, which might be optimal anyways.
The Roger works well with a punching bag linemen who just follows him around. As long as you take your injured pos linemen you don't care about your guaranteed to always make your action.
If you're a rookie don't go for skaven. I played a loot but a rookie coach playing wont have a good time. Try human and orcs first or if you want to be agile try wood elves or dark elves. Look you can try once you had 5 games and only had to replace one linerat then you'll probably safe and start to see the plays you're expecting to see (and why you chose them😊
Only just found your RUclips channel but already this first vid I've watched has been so useful to frame the teams and to avoid unnecessary handicaps for very average gamers like me. Cheers for sharing.
I really appreciated your guide videos where you slowed down and used paint overlay. Watched all of your orc videos! I think more newer folks like me would benefit from more of those. Maximizing blocks, screening against dodge without tackle on offense and defense, caging against wizard, are some I can think of off the top.
Skaven consistently being A or S tier. If only Andy had a good record with skaven he might actually be able to win Challice when it (if) comes to BB3. For me I have always wanted to play rats, but I despise playing against them, maybe now will be the time. Maybe could have added a prefered team tier list, like how much fun you personally have playing a certain teams. Just for the fun, nothing serious would be taken out of your statements.
@@WoWisdeadtome And their Big Guy is not as useful as it lack prehensile tail. Sure it has Loner (3+) which is just a little better that Loner (4+), you are not wanting to rely on that and Projectile Vomit is better for when you want to deal with Stunties or dodge players in general, but I don't expect my opponents to leave these players next to my Troll anyways.
Heya Andy Cool video as always. Thanks for posting. Was just wondering if you had a road map for teams coming out in BB3? I can't seem to find anything anywhere. Although in comparison Total War Warhammer 3 has a road map for upcoming content. How long do you think it'll be until all the teams are out and what's coming next? :)
Disagree with your assessment on beginning tiers, Skaven, DE, Orc are tier S regardless of if you can purchase all stuff. Humans probably A or B, considering lack of str or AGI
Ogres are quite a bit better in this ruleset and Snotlings are actually pretty good. Riotous Rookies, Swarming, a very low TV with a ton of inducements to work with, and a lot of fouling is really good. Several Snotling teams went really deep into the FUMBBL Cup this year.
Thanks for the tier list Andy nice overview , but with a 1800 Black Orcs team with 6 block, MB, guard stand firm or tackle black Orcs, 1 guard stand firmTroll , 7 Gobbos sprinkeled with sidestep , defensive , sneacky git dirty player , kick , leader , blodge you are going to win games
Most teams want to start with 2 or 3. Every team should go up to 3 after a few games and a few teams like Skaven for example, want to maybe go up to 4 or 3 and a player with the leader skill, which gives you an extra reroll. And coaches and cheerleaders are not a good idea as far as I can see. They just increase your Teamvalue and don't do enough. When you're 1300 TV and facing an opponent with 1300 TV and you have cheerleaders and he has actual skills like block etc, you will wish you had those skills too :D
@@markfreenick At that point I would prefer to have less TV than my opponents and buy extra-rerolls in inducement. Also, if all your team have block (hypothetical), you'll burn less rerolls on blocking actions. The more skills you have, the less reroll you'll need. Buying a 5th reroll is increasing your TV, may give your opponent more inducement money so they could "even" the match by buying extra rerolls, and so you don't get any advantage. I usually turn around 3-4 reroll. 4reroll on nurgle teams is ridiculously costly, even if they need it at first :c
Really good and probably accurate representation... might disagree on the Black Orc and I would likely bump them up a notch on the lower tiers. They are just difficult to play with low movement. For me personally mostly playing the boardgame in leagues team values above 1500 is a rarity with 6-10 games a season depending on number of team in a division. I don't think the core game is really made for much higher team values than around 1500 to be honest. This is when the game starting to become more luck based than skill based to be honest and many teams loose their identity as most teams seem to be built very similar. The redraft after 6-10 games "fix" most problems I have had with the game for a long while and I have played this game since first edition, so a long time. I also think that the league system where you gain 3p for a win and inly 1p for a draw and extra points if you score 3 goals or manage to make 3 proper casualties also impact how games are played in a positive way, less 2-1 grinds (which essentially is playing for the draw) and gaining more money for each score also open up gameplay a bit more as well. This also make individual team rankings a bit different but overall I don't think they differ all that much. Dwarves certainly I think is strong, but in a league they still struggle a bit with actually winning and winning with at least 3 goals as well. As they can't rely so much on attrition over the course of several seasons, they drop a bit in my book. But for BB3 I think you are very accurate...
Always tempted to put Nurgle in S imo they suffer less attrition because of foul appearance and can control better with disturbing presence against the AG teams as well as being able to cause lots of pain, it just takes 40 games to get there sadly
@@JorisVDC yeah that’s true but rotters are meant for that being really cheap and at the higher team values you probably have a few spare for los or fouling, you definitely don’t want to foul with anything else
In my own experience, I see teams with great stats and low skill start get better with TV, and teams that starts with meh stats and positionals that rely on skills from the start to be strong out of the box but drop-off quickly. Other things enter into account ofc like skill access, and it's not a binary it's definetly a spectrum, look at slann who have average to mid-decent stats, and technically start with a butt load of skills, but those skills are not that useful at the start but actually get better with other skills, and ofc the incredible skill access, ending up with a team that generally struggles at low TV but has great potential.
Truth outside dwarf. Dwarfs have suck stats outside armor but rock in hight TV couse there tackle vs aglee teams and troll slaying vs high str become more helpful.
@@markfreenick I kinda disagree, I don't think dwarves have it easy at high TV. I think Andy should have dropped them a tier at mid TV and again at high. They're not bad, but there's just so little potential from their positional. Beards get guard and stand firm, and they're basically done. There's some other stuff you can put on them but it enters "is it worth the TV ?" territory. Blitzers have it a bit better, but you basically build them the same way, maybe juggernaut can be nice. Slayers are not that useful, as pointed out by Andy in his guide. You can take them, and they are probably better at low TV with all their starting skill, especially to counter strength 4 before you have guard. But then, they start to become a liability. The armour loss is felt, Frenzy is nice for surfing but the low mobility of the team makes much more vulnerable to traps. Unfortunatly the movement 5 isn't enough to boost the overall mobility of the team, as the slayers need to be protected. As for the runners, they're probably the biggest counter-argument for my point. They develop amazingly. One built as ball-carrier with block, dodge, on the ball, maybe sprint, safe hands, sure feet. One sacker/safety, with wrestle, strip ball, tackle, they really allow you to open up your game more at high tv, as you're not as worried about catchers infiltrating your backlines and you don't need to worry as much about babysitting your ball-carrier as heavily. Sorry for the long post.
@@windwalker7154 did not played as high tv dwarves but played vs them by old amazon team, it was one of the most painful match fore me ever. Cant run around couse tackle, cant fight vs them couse high armor, block and gard, literally no way to stop them from scoring and quiet hard to get touchdown myself. Maybe to team with better basic stats like str and dex it woud be more eazy, but human and even goblins is still on the board.
@@markfreenick at high TV a lot of team will have tackle spam. Now, I'm not arguing that dwarves aren't strong, and they are definitly top-tier at low TV, especially against amazon (ouch). But I do think they lose their top tier status at mid-high TV, where they are more middle of the pack. For your situation, as dwarf player myself, I would argue that you might try to outscore the dwarves with quick touchdowns. Dwarves are not as straight-forward as they may seem : against a competent opponent, you often need close to perfect positioning to keep the situation under control. On my larger opinion of dwarves, I do agree with Andy, they do deserve a nerf/rework.
Don’t forget at very high team values move up becomes more common on sweepers and ball handlers. After 1-2 skills a lot of initially “has the tools it needs to do it’s job” players may want to save for stat ups rather then add in second rate skills. Move +2 is pretty common on FUMBBL high team value ball carriers. That might elevate some teams held back by a lack of a one turner or difficulty dealing with other teams speed.
Now we have the first BB3 CCL with the top 16 teams, most of the high TV. Among those are 6 Dwarf Teams, 4 Orks, and one of Nurgle, Pro Elfes, Dark Elfs, Chaos Chosen, Black Ork and OWA. No Skaven Choach made the cut. Humans, Nobility and Renegades are missing too. I thik the took the first 16 Teams with no race cap in the first season.
Where do you get the win loss data? If it’s from the game snd it’s not excluding first half “nope” concessions it is going to greatly inflate teams like chaos or dwarves.
Nerves of Steel on Elven Union catchers feels undervalued in this list. Sure, if you're just talking raw "power" Union Elves are going to stuggle (as any elf team does). But they can score with impunity, especially against slow teams that lack reliable tackle/wrestle, even without fast elf linemen. I don't get the fixation on elf linemen. You end up only having a few anyway, for los/roster/bench upkeep. The linemen are there to get in the way and land fouls, while the catchers, blitzers, and throwers (6-8 players in a perfect world) stretch the field and play "keep away" with the opposing team. Throwers have MA6, but PA2+, while catchers and blitzers are MA8 and MA7, respectively. Another thing to remember is that the Blitzers are PA3+, which a lot of opposing coaches don't seem to realize, which means that quick pass/handoff long field plays with blitzers/catchers for (23-25 square distance) is literally the definition of running circles around the opposing team.
Blorcs murder at high tv I just took 6 cas on my orc team at 1600 tv bunch of mb guard spam with a sgdp goblin kicking everything. Lucky to get a draw do to getting a few lucky early removals on my drive after only having 4 orcs left while defending.
I wish they had just given us the classic board game 3e races. We get 3 different kinds of Humans (if you count Old World Alliance), 3 different kinds of Chaos, but no Undead. No Wood or High Elves. No Chaos Dwarfs. It's a weird choice imo.
It's obvious they wanted to pad out the team list as much as possible with as few assets as possible and leave a lot of the most loved teams for latter to keep teh buzz going for their season passes.
I proved to my friends that dwarves were the best starting team. I asked my brother to lend me his dwarves and I will win the tournament we were going into. My friends and brother laughed at me. Anyways, I got the last laugh. Champion!
I think Black Orcs would be significantly better by simply subbing out 2 goblins for 2 blitzers, or even regular linemen. Being forced to field 4 goblins is a joke, they die instantly and then you have to try and defend runs with 4 movement...The only team I truly feel is outright unbalanced, even OWA has some wiggle room for success but playing Black Orcs is just masochistic.
I feel like giving them access to a new positional would be great... But it should be something fragile, think of something like a kicker with the hobgoblin statline. Turning black orcs into a slightly different orc team by adding more high armor pieces would be a huge waste.
I think the OWA actually could be maybe a B tier or even A tier at low team value, I built a 650,000TV OWA team, I've been able to bring at least griff with me in every match so far, and be an absolute gremlin at low TV. gonna keep playing them and see how good of a record I can do without going up in TV.
If you reallt know how to play nurgle, they are extremely efficient. Their strengths, if utilized properly, can take advantage of any other team's weaknesses. Also, if you know how to prevent the other team from taking advantage of your weaknesses, you have a counter for anything they try. Hint - 35:54 If you play as nurgle and take the rotspawn - expect to lose.
I love the guide but holy hell will this kind of analysis get complicated as new teams/meta emerge, though I guess TT experience can kind of help with this kind of analysis.
Skills guide version would be very helpful - but you might want to hold off until the game resolves most of it's issues. I'm not planning to buy until it seems like the product is a full release (instead of its current broken-beta vibe) and things might change on the road to that level of game doneness.
I think Nurgle is easily a C tier at 1360-1750. At this point Warriors all would have block or better, you will have a very solid ball carrier and safety with pestigors, guard stand firm beast, etc.
i disagree regarding Black Orcs. At 1300 TV they are not bad. Guard on all, a sneaky git and stand firm or guard troll. Yes, no block, but brawler makes up for that to some extent. After that a smattering of cheap str access. Stand firm and a few mighty blow. No skills needed on goblins, but they do have access to defensive. All that grab is extremely "controlly" and good in a brawl around the sidelines. Struggle against dwarves and good elf coaches of course. But chaos and renegades are not dangerous at around 1300. I would put them just below middle.
Most of my mid TV against black orcs with my nurgle team would be resumed to: Isolate the goblins, kill the goblins, out-paced the orcs. I still have a pretty hard time because their bashing game is far from bad and my team lacks a lot of skills at that TV, but the pestigors do the job once you get the goblins out of the way. Black orcs are absolutely not trash, but I agree with them beeing more a "middle of the pack" team because they rely on fragile players to do what their good players can't do (and with disturbing presence stacking, they really have a hard time picking up the ball without gobs). I'm not there yet, but I'm willing to face a Black orcs team once I get some claws on my team, to see if I can get more done by beeing agressive.
I don't understand why what a team is missing as a rookie team factors in? Who cares if you're missing player X? All that matters is the strength of the team you can get as rookies.
It's about how good the roster is at rookie level, vs how good it could have been. Dark elves are playing with 7 ma6, str3, ag2+ players, no skills. Not strong. They could of had 2 ma7 frenzy, dodge players, but cant afford it.
On hight team Value the Elfen Union get an incredible strong one turn. Mv+ Sprint sidestep on a Catcher... Thrower to bring him the ball... NoS kicks in too... Hard to win a game when the don't die
I'm a bit too late... But I think Chaos renegades should be on c and humies on b. Chaos renegades if your bg decide to be dumb... Nothing you can do, humans, at least, they have a thrower with 2+ pass sh and pass, catchers with ma8 and 4 beautifull blitzers. Also cheap rr vs 70k xD
I disagree humans are S tier, personally. I think orcs outclass them--they give up 1MA on a couple pieces, but gain a bunch of S4, still have AG3+ and sure hands, block, etc. I know your criteria might be different (ie what you give up, cant field everything).... But I think it's not super useful to categorize things exclusively on that. If orcs are a more powerful team at rookie TV, it doesn't really matter that they have to give up a troll or w/e. Just my opinion, love your presence in the BB community!
Thing is that Nurgle may not be able to afford all of their players on their roster, it will still be better than the Blorcs roster. I've played Blorcs, and they can afford all their toys only because they only have 3 toys.
Awesome guide, as always Andy, thank you. A skills guide would be great! Don’t hate on Dwarfs. The positioning challenges make them fun, plus their fluff (and beards)!
I play Elven Union and struggling with keeping my players alive as I’m almost always going against bashy teams!!! I saw that AndyDavo’s downgraded the EU because of armour yet Skaven and Dark Elves remained high. How does that work? I’m a newish player and I’m starting to think that Blood Bowl needs the high armour teams, sadly these teams feel boring to play (for me). I had levelled up an Orc team in campaign mode and that was super quick and fun!! But I think that’s because the AI was lacking quite a bit. I do think I’m struggling because of server stability too. Getting injuries and then the server kicks you out and you don’t have the gold to buy players back makes for a poor experience, not to mention the loss of the SPP you had earned along the way!!!
I'm no expert, but from what I gather. Stay away from them as much as possible.. Don't get into a bash war. Pick targets wisely. The last game I watched , he got crushed by a bash team that was rolling well. Sometimes, the dice are against you. The less you roll, the less they can screw you up. I'm still learning and played through all the races in BB2 and BB3. Most of the teams in 3 ATM aren't as well rounded IMHO as in 2 till they get released. Necro and Lizards are great because they have both bash and speed. Necro is getting change so not sure I'll still like it. The new rat ogre is decent. Just don't stand next to it. That adds a bit of bash, but you're probably not winning a bash war with it. My ultimate suggestion is..
Play the team that gives you the most problems. You'll see it from their perspective and how they think. This may help in developing strategies when you see their weaknesses and strengths. Most of the time the weakness is probably going to be movement and agility. A black orc isn't going to catch a gutter runner even on a good day.
Perpetual League favors the bash teams for staying power. Doesn't stop me from playing Eleven Union though. Find wins to be 'easy' as long as you are careful at low to mid tiers. Spammed guard and mighty blow make it difficult at high tiers.
Im new to blood bowl but I made an OWA team because it reminded me of Lord of the rings for some reason. Now everything I see about them says they are terrible. Should've done my research 😞
And to a lesser extent High elves. Also there are none of the stunty teams, but Andy don't like those. Understandable that the teams of legend aren't in there.
I really hope you start playing black orcs because it's obvious you have no experience playing them. I'm not saying they deserve a higher rating or whatever but your analysis of the team is just non-existant. You're basically saying they suck and that's it. I guess it's clear now why your BO guide was the shortest and worst of the guide series aswell. Cheers.
It was 1st guide and it was based mostly on theory crafting, research talking to experienced coaches who have used them. They are factually worse than most other teams in bb3. Am I an expert with them, no, am I way off, I also think no. I'll accept I'm not bang on, sure
@@AndyDavoBloodBowl The changes to reduce damage combos and the reduction of the chance of players dying... probably saved the game for me. The passing thing was also good.
Don't agree on black orcs being a c tier team. B tier certainly. The thing is, they're a new-ish team and people have no idea on how to use them. They're like dwarves and grind their opposition down. you use grab to organise fouls and surf players, but when and how is a complicated question for new coaches. So they have an OK start, or actually a good start even with 3 rr and 6 BO, but they are not beginner friendly.
Oh, boy can't wait to see him say elfs are super weak..... despite having the best stats for Blood bowl, why do you think everyone and their mums want AG4 on their teams? (*Spoilers its not cause they hit harder, its cause it make the core aspect of the game a joke)
Im going to be the "as*hole" Around 3:00 you say Chaos Renegates, but you are pulling and talking about Chaos Chosen. ok.. im back to watching video...Sorry.. dont hate me. Btw i wonder if anyone can beat Nurgle at bottom at anypoint...Exiting! Nurgle with comeback at the end. Skill ranking would be cool.
Would love to get matches in against you Andy. I don't have the money to donate but wish I could thanks for the great vids man from one long time coach to another happy blocking 🙂
I would say chaos chosen should be a higher tier all their beastmen get ST4 on blitzing and have access to general strength and mutations making beastmen amazing ball carriers as soon as you get 6 spp chaos blockers having the same access is amazing deffo think you put chaos chosen in the wrong tier missed the mark on that one nobility are not A Tier by far they should be B Tier
the 4 Questions:
1. What Turn is it?
2. Is the ball safe?
3. Where is the Blitz?
4. Where are my 2D blocks?
Ever going to do a TT version of the list?
It's funny just how the 2nd, 3rd and 4th of those are second nature, but how many times I've forgotten number 1 and misdirected!
I main Black Orcs, have played them the most since they came. You have to think about the mass grab as the movement they lack. Instead of walking to the enemy, you pass them around. It is super fun at High TV. Strong Arm troll for easier one turn td, sneaky git dirty player goblin amonst 7 guard pieces for easy removal. They are difficult to play but they can win vs any team
Well, I would like to see you try it vs any speed team. Sure they 'can' win any match-up, but what are the actual odds?
Looking at their statistics, they are in the same winning percentage as Stunties in tournaments and on FUMBBL.
@@JorisVDC they just play really differently than most teams and you need a different mindset.
I have more trouble against bashier teams than agile teams. An agile team, you can't really stop them from getting a touchdown but you will play for the draw and have quite a few tools to grind them down and negate their agility. You grab them between your guys to force them to make bad dodges, you foul them to force them to stand up and risk the dodges.
Always buy a bribe if you can afford it.
@@JorisVDC againts a speed team they score early because you are destroying their team (7 2/3 dice blocks, stadisticaly, destoys any team, and you can have that from turn 2, or force them to star throwing dodges until they fail) and then, you have a lot of time to score. Protect the ball, slowlly advance and just pass over. Purelly stadisticallly, you have grate posibilities of destroying them.
and if you start, make sure they don't have a team to play in the second half, score at 8, and then eather they score fast (and you win 2-1) or they don't, anf you destroy them. Also you throw. i mean, People understimate BO. Being slow is the only thing they are bad at. I will say that, with the exeption of lizars, they can win if you know how to play them, quite probably, againts anyone. ON tabletop, i have a record of something like 70% victories. If they don't broke constantlly your BO line, they are fucked if you know how to play BO.
Black orcs are definitely much better than OWA. I think OWA might be the worst team in the whole of BB let alone BB3, to be fair I don't know what jank you can do with OWA with stars, or a skills package, but to me they just seem awful, whereas I think black orcs are OK.
You're looking a lot more comfortable in these videos. Great stuff
Cocaine is a hell of a drug
Thank you!
The difference between running a bunch of Chaos Pact linemen and OWA linemen is that Chaos Pact linemen get better skill access since Mutations are primary for them, which can lead to some interesting options for them. Also Chaos Pact gets an AG 4 ball handler and somehow there are more players with Loner on OWA than on Chaos pact, even though you have 4 big guys to choose from on that team.
Yes! We need the skills guide that will get some discussion going.
I broadly agree with you. It is very easy to get +MA for a DElf team and there are lots of good Strength skills to either just buy Guard or take a Random.
Great job as always, +1 for the skills tierlist.
I' probably go S with Skaven (rookie/starter.) I would say there is an argument to be made that gutter runners are the current best unit in BB3. Even in BB2 they were likely 2nd only to wardancers. Skaven can pretty easily start with all 4 gutters and you really only have to give up the Rogre, which might be optimal anyways.
The Roger works well with a punching bag linemen who just follows him around. As long as you take your injured pos linemen you don't care about your guaranteed to always make your action.
If you're a rookie don't go for skaven. I played a loot but a rookie coach playing wont have a good time. Try human and orcs first or if you want to be agile try wood elves or dark elves. Look you can try once you had 5 games and only had to replace one linerat then you'll probably safe and start to see the plays you're expecting to see (and why you chose them😊
Only just found your RUclips channel but already this first vid I've watched has been so useful to frame the teams and to avoid unnecessary handicaps for very average gamers like me. Cheers for sharing.
I really appreciated your guide videos where you slowed down and used paint overlay. Watched all of your orc videos! I think more newer folks like me would benefit from more of those. Maximizing blocks, screening against dodge without tackle on offense and defense, caging against wizard, are some I can think of off the top.
"As an elf coach..."
Great joke, made me chuckle.
I
Am
An
Elf
Skaven consistently being A or S tier. If only Andy had a good record with skaven he might actually be able to win Challice when it (if) comes to BB3. For me I have always wanted to play rats, but I despise playing against them, maybe now will be the time. Maybe could have added a prefered team tier list, like how much fun you personally have playing a certain teams. Just for the fun, nothing serious would be taken out of your statements.
Haven't tried Blorcs yet, but I get the feeling that they'll have to rely on their troll to Strong Arm goblins into the end zone
When you got to rely on a troll you know you're going to have a rough go at it :D
@@Peremptor True, but they specifically made that troll more reliable. Part of why I think strong arm will be an early upgrade for him.
Yeah, they're a Blorc team but the Blorcs themselves don't feature into their playbook. They need to be reworked.
Blorcs are just worse lizardmen.
It's like playing a lizardman team except that every player is double move busted.
@@WoWisdeadtome And their Big Guy is not as useful as it lack prehensile tail. Sure it has Loner (3+) which is just a little better that Loner (4+), you are not wanting to rely on that and Projectile Vomit is better for when you want to deal with Stunties or dodge players in general, but I don't expect my opponents to leave these players next to my Troll anyways.
Bwahahaaaa!
Who is the other crazy Nurgle coach? Who will I be hanging out with on top of Mt Everest?
Loved the video!
/Hyperbrain
... this was a fantastic overview and explanation. I greatly appreciate it!
Thanks. That's very helpful for beginners. How would you put the Lizardmen into these tables?
Cool video thankyou very detailed as you have covered different TV
When we get the 4th team you going to revisit this?
yes
Heya Andy
Cool video as always. Thanks for posting. Was just wondering if you had a road map for teams coming out in BB3? I can't seem to find anything anywhere. Although in comparison Total War Warhammer 3 has a road map for upcoming content. How long do you think it'll be until all the teams are out and what's coming next? :)
Disagree with your assessment on beginning tiers, Skaven, DE, Orc are tier S regardless of if you can purchase all stuff. Humans probably A or B, considering lack of str or AGI
I chuckled when the Captions translated 'Blood Bowl' as 'Blob all'
Maybe an odd question on an old video but I play bloodbowl 2. How would you rank those teams?
You could break this down further into, private league play rankings, public matchmaking rankings, and rankings once redrafting is enabled.
Hi Rob - I think I could have gone much deeper, what stopped me really was time - It was already 35mins. Good point though!
Love this!
Would be cool to see this updated with the 5 teams added since launch
You will need another tier once Ogres and Snotlings come out.
Stunties!
@@jaybishop4224 S+++ sounds about right
Wait for the S+ Gobbos
Ogres are quite a bit better in this ruleset and Snotlings are actually pretty good. Riotous Rookies, Swarming, a very low TV with a ton of inducements to work with, and a lot of fouling is really good. Several Snotling teams went really deep into the FUMBBL Cup this year.
G tier, Garbage
Andy ? I'm curious to see where you put team like wood elves and undead 😊
high up
Would love an updated list
Thanks for the tier list Andy nice overview , but with a 1800 Black Orcs team with 6 block, MB, guard stand firm or tackle black Orcs, 1 guard stand firmTroll , 7 Gobbos sprinkeled with sidestep , defensive , sneacky git dirty player , kick , leader , blodge you are going to win games
Yeah I Definitely Think Black Orcs Aren’t D Tier
Yay Rankings!
Great Video! I agree with almost all in the rooky part. Nice to know that I was not wrong about it.
How many rerolls should you buy in each point of game? Is it good idea to buy coach helpers and cheerleaders in any point of game?
Most teams want to start with 2 or 3. Every team should go up to 3 after a few games and a few teams like Skaven for example, want to maybe go up to 4 or 3 and a player with the leader skill, which gives you an extra reroll.
And coaches and cheerleaders are not a good idea as far as I can see. They just increase your Teamvalue and don't do enough. When you're 1300 TV and facing an opponent with 1300 TV and you have cheerleaders and he has actual skills like block etc, you will wish you had those skills too :D
3-4 rr max. Cheerleaders and coach helpers are absolutely useless
@@dasglaubichnich so even in 1700 tv there is not god idea to increase you tv by 5th reroll?
Previously he's said that max 3 rerolls plus leader... maybe four at high enough TVs if you are a elf player for pulling off their shenanigans.
@@markfreenick At that point I would prefer to have less TV than my opponents and buy extra-rerolls in inducement. Also, if all your team have block (hypothetical), you'll burn less rerolls on blocking actions. The more skills you have, the less reroll you'll need. Buying a 5th reroll is increasing your TV, may give your opponent more inducement money so they could "even" the match by buying extra rerolls, and so you don't get any advantage.
I usually turn around 3-4 reroll. 4reroll on nurgle teams is ridiculously costly, even if they need it at first :c
Really good and probably accurate representation... might disagree on the Black Orc and I would likely bump them up a notch on the lower tiers. They are just difficult to play with low movement.
For me personally mostly playing the boardgame in leagues team values above 1500 is a rarity with 6-10 games a season depending on number of team in a division. I don't think the core game is really made for much higher team values than around 1500 to be honest. This is when the game starting to become more luck based than skill based to be honest and many teams loose their identity as most teams seem to be built very similar.
The redraft after 6-10 games "fix" most problems I have had with the game for a long while and I have played this game since first edition, so a long time. I also think that the league system where you gain 3p for a win and inly 1p for a draw and extra points if you score 3 goals or manage to make 3 proper casualties also impact how games are played in a positive way, less 2-1 grinds (which essentially is playing for the draw) and gaining more money for each score also open up gameplay a bit more as well.
This also make individual team rankings a bit different but overall I don't think they differ all that much. Dwarves certainly I think is strong, but in a league they still struggle a bit with actually winning and winning with at least 3 goals as well. As they can't rely so much on attrition over the course of several seasons, they drop a bit in my book.
But for BB3 I think you are very accurate...
Always tempted to put Nurgle in S imo they suffer less attrition because of foul appearance and can control better with disturbing presence against the AG teams as well as being able to cause lots of pain, it just takes 40 games to get there sadly
Yeah, they can be good, yet with Rotters being only AG 4+, it limits the potential of the team a lot as they only have access to 4x AG3 players.
@@JorisVDC yeah that’s true but rotters are meant for that being really cheap and at the higher team values you probably have a few spare for los or fouling, you definitely don’t want to foul with anything else
In my own experience, I see teams with great stats and low skill start get better with TV, and teams that starts with meh stats and positionals that rely on skills from the start to be strong out of the box but drop-off quickly. Other things enter into account ofc like skill access, and it's not a binary it's definetly a spectrum, look at slann who have average to mid-decent stats, and technically start with a butt load of skills, but those skills are not that useful at the start but actually get better with other skills, and ofc the incredible skill access, ending up with a team that generally struggles at low TV but has great potential.
Truth outside dwarf. Dwarfs have suck stats outside armor but rock in hight TV couse there tackle vs aglee teams and troll slaying vs high str become more helpful.
@@markfreenick I kinda disagree, I don't think dwarves have it easy at high TV. I think Andy should have dropped them a tier at mid TV and again at high. They're not bad, but there's just so little potential from their positional. Beards get guard and stand firm, and they're basically done. There's some other stuff you can put on them but it enters "is it worth the TV ?" territory. Blitzers have it a bit better, but you basically build them the same way, maybe juggernaut can be nice. Slayers are not that useful, as pointed out by Andy in his guide. You can take them, and they are probably better at low TV with all their starting skill, especially to counter strength 4 before you have guard. But then, they start to become a liability. The armour loss is felt, Frenzy is nice for surfing but the low mobility of the team makes much more vulnerable to traps. Unfortunatly the movement 5 isn't enough to boost the overall mobility of the team, as the slayers need to be protected. As for the runners, they're probably the biggest counter-argument for my point. They develop amazingly. One built as ball-carrier with block, dodge, on the ball, maybe sprint, safe hands, sure feet. One sacker/safety, with wrestle, strip ball, tackle, they really allow you to open up your game more at high tv, as you're not as worried about catchers infiltrating your backlines and you don't need to worry as much about babysitting your ball-carrier as heavily.
Sorry for the long post.
@@windwalker7154 did not played as high tv dwarves but played vs them by old amazon team, it was one of the most painful match fore me ever. Cant run around couse tackle, cant fight vs them couse high armor, block and gard, literally no way to stop them from scoring and quiet hard to get touchdown myself. Maybe to team with better basic stats like str and dex it woud be more eazy, but human and even goblins is still on the board.
@@markfreenick at high TV a lot of team will have tackle spam. Now, I'm not arguing that dwarves aren't strong, and they are definitly top-tier at low TV, especially against amazon (ouch). But I do think they lose their top tier status at mid-high TV, where they are more middle of the pack.
For your situation, as dwarf player myself, I would argue that you might try to outscore the dwarves with quick touchdowns. Dwarves are not as straight-forward as they may seem : against a competent opponent, you often need close to perfect positioning to keep the situation under control.
On my larger opinion of dwarves, I do agree with Andy, they do deserve a nerf/rework.
OWA is my favourite but I agree with you. It suck on every tv rating. Animosity and Loner for half of players. Who the hell design this team rules. 😂
Don’t forget at very high team values move up becomes more common on sweepers and ball handlers. After 1-2 skills a lot of initially “has the tools it needs to do it’s job” players may want to save for stat ups rather then add in second rate skills. Move +2 is pretty common on FUMBBL high team value ball carriers. That might elevate some teams held back by a lack of a one turner or difficulty dealing with other teams speed.
I like OWA. The mixture of Dwarf sturdiness and Human ball handling is fun I think. Plus they start with skills unlike Chaos Renegades.
where i can find a vid with skills showcase, and synergies? or can you do a video abt it?
Couple of days time
@@AndyDavoBloodBowl 🥰🥰
Now we have the first BB3 CCL with the top 16 teams, most of the high TV. Among those are 6 Dwarf Teams, 4 Orks, and one of Nurgle, Pro Elfes, Dark Elfs, Chaos Chosen, Black Ork and OWA. No Skaven Choach made the cut. Humans, Nobility and Renegades are missing too. I thik the took the first 16 Teams with no race cap in the first season.
I've had a lot of fun with Imperial Nobility, I'm excited for Claw Mighty Blow to obliterate my joy later on
It's really not very prominent now because of how skill progression works and gw nerfed how they work together
You won't have to worry, this isn't BB2 so you are safe.
I love the point where you say: "as an Elf coach..."
Where do you get the win loss data? If it’s from the game snd it’s not excluding first half “nope” concessions it is going to greatly inflate teams like chaos or dwarves.
Nerves of Steel on Elven Union catchers feels undervalued in this list. Sure, if you're just talking raw "power" Union Elves are going to stuggle (as any elf team does). But they can score with impunity, especially against slow teams that lack reliable tackle/wrestle, even without fast elf linemen. I don't get the fixation on elf linemen. You end up only having a few anyway, for los/roster/bench upkeep. The linemen are there to get in the way and land fouls, while the catchers, blitzers, and throwers (6-8 players in a perfect world) stretch the field and play "keep away" with the opposing team. Throwers have MA6, but PA2+, while catchers and blitzers are MA8 and MA7, respectively. Another thing to remember is that the Blitzers are PA3+, which a lot of opposing coaches don't seem to realize, which means that quick pass/handoff long field plays with blitzers/catchers for (23-25 square distance) is literally the definition of running circles around the opposing team.
elven union are not put higher up because, simply, of their low AV and lower MA, but mostly because they explode
Blorcs murder at high tv I just took 6 cas on my orc team at 1600 tv bunch of mb guard spam with a sgdp goblin kicking everything. Lucky to get a draw do to getting a few lucky early removals on my drive after only having 4 orcs left while defending.
I am curious what we will find out once we get a ladder and more hight TV games
I wish they had just given us the classic board game 3e races. We get 3 different kinds of Humans (if you count Old World Alliance), 3 different kinds of Chaos, but no Undead. No Wood or High Elves. No Chaos Dwarfs. It's a weird choice imo.
We actualy have 4 kinds of chaos with no undead
It's obvious they wanted to pad out the team list as much as possible with as few assets as possible and leave a lot of the most loved teams for latter to keep teh buzz going for their season passes.
@@Player-sz8jk Chosen, Renegades, Nurgle. Which one do you count as the 4th?
@@NisGaarde skaven
@@Player-sz8jk In BB meta no way are skaven a chaos team, I don't care what the fluff says
Skills list! Yes please.
Welcome to twitch too
I proved to my friends that dwarves were the best starting team. I asked my brother to lend me his dwarves and I will win the tournament we were going into. My friends and brother laughed at me.
Anyways, I got the last laugh.
Champion!
for dwarves to be the best they would need a favourable ruleset.
@@AndyDavoBloodBowl I don’t think the rule set should favour any team.
Great analysis! Your videos rock!! +1 for a skills tier list video
I think Black Orcs would be significantly better by simply subbing out 2 goblins for 2 blitzers, or even regular linemen. Being forced to field 4 goblins is a joke, they die instantly and then you have to try and defend runs with 4 movement...The only team I truly feel is outright unbalanced, even OWA has some wiggle room for success but playing Black Orcs is just masochistic.
I feel like giving them access to a new positional would be great... But it should be something fragile, think of something like a kicker with the hobgoblin statline. Turning black orcs into a slightly different orc team by adding more high armor pieces would be a huge waste.
I think they should have had snotlings instead of underworld from a balance perspective. Maybe not fluff wise though .
Where would you put lizards now they are out?
I think the OWA actually could be maybe a B tier or even A tier at low team value, I built a 650,000TV OWA team, I've been able to bring at least griff with me in every match so far, and be an absolute gremlin at low TV. gonna keep playing them and see how good of a record I can do without going up in TV.
Please do a tabletop version 🙏
If you reallt know how to play nurgle, they are extremely efficient.
Their strengths, if utilized properly, can take advantage of any other team's weaknesses. Also, if you know how to prevent the other team from taking advantage of your weaknesses, you have a counter for anything they try.
Hint - 35:54 If you play as nurgle and take the rotspawn - expect to lose.
I love the guide but holy hell will this kind of analysis get complicated as new teams/meta emerge, though I guess TT experience can kind of help with this kind of analysis.
Skills guide version would be very helpful - but you might want to hold off until the game resolves most of it's issues. I'm not planning to buy until it seems like the product is a full release (instead of its current broken-beta vibe) and things might change on the road to that level of game doneness.
Skills Tier please Andy.
I think Nurgle is easily a C tier at 1360-1750. At this point Warriors all would have block or better, you will have a very solid ball carrier and safety with pestigors, guard stand firm beast, etc.
basing tiers on "giving up stuff: in the beginning doesn't make sense, it should be based on how effective they are (ie, win rate).
The win rate is the consideration, impacted by roster balance, which is, in essence, giving up stuff or not.
i disagree regarding Black Orcs. At 1300 TV they are not bad. Guard on all, a sneaky git and stand firm or guard troll. Yes, no block, but brawler makes up for that to some extent. After that a smattering of cheap str access. Stand firm and a few mighty blow. No skills needed on goblins, but they do have access to defensive. All that grab is extremely "controlly" and good in a brawl around the sidelines. Struggle against dwarves and good elf coaches of course. But chaos and renegades are not dangerous at around 1300. I would put them just below middle.
Most of my mid TV against black orcs with my nurgle team would be resumed to: Isolate the goblins, kill the goblins, out-paced the orcs. I still have a pretty hard time because their bashing game is far from bad and my team lacks a lot of skills at that TV, but the pestigors do the job once you get the goblins out of the way.
Black orcs are absolutely not trash, but I agree with them beeing more a "middle of the pack" team because they rely on fragile players to do what their good players can't do (and with disturbing presence stacking, they really have a hard time picking up the ball without gobs).
I'm not there yet, but I'm willing to face a Black orcs team once I get some claws on my team, to see if I can get more done by beeing agressive.
I don't understand why what a team is missing as a rookie team factors in? Who cares if you're missing player X? All that matters is the strength of the team you can get as rookies.
It's about how good the roster is at rookie level, vs how good it could have been. Dark elves are playing with 7 ma6, str3, ag2+ players, no skills. Not strong.
They could of had 2 ma7 frenzy, dodge players, but cant afford it.
On hight team Value the Elfen Union get an incredible strong one turn. Mv+ Sprint sidestep on a Catcher... Thrower to bring him the ball... NoS kicks in too... Hard to win a game when the don't die
Now that you can pick skills wouldn't most agility team be able to make one turn catchers and accurate passers?
Rabble! Rabble rabble!
What do you suggest we name the new tier above S for Khorne?
I'm a bit too late... But I think Chaos renegades should be on c and humies on b. Chaos renegades if your bg decide to be dumb... Nothing you can do, humans, at least, they have a thrower with 2+ pass sh and pass, catchers with ma8 and 4 beautifull blitzers. Also cheap rr vs 70k xD
Where would you place lizardmen 🦎 🦎 🦎
Ooih, I'll do a new power rankings after the next team is out.
Nice 1
I disagree humans are S tier, personally. I think orcs outclass them--they give up 1MA on a couple pieces, but gain a bunch of S4, still have AG3+ and sure hands, block, etc. I know your criteria might be different (ie what you give up, cant field everything).... But I think it's not super useful to categorize things exclusively on that. If orcs are a more powerful team at rookie TV, it doesn't really matter that they have to give up a troll or w/e. Just my opinion, love your presence in the BB community!
Thank you.
I would say Nurgle are better than BO at lower TVs. 🤷🏻♂️
whats better, a chocolate teapot or a snowman in the dessert?
Thing is that Nurgle may not be able to afford all of their players on their roster, it will still be better than the Blorcs roster.
I've played Blorcs, and they can afford all their toys only because they only have 3 toys.
good list, i think black elves get a little better as they go on but solid list
Awesome guide, as always Andy, thank you.
A skills guide would be great!
Don’t hate on Dwarfs. The positioning challenges make them fun, plus their fluff (and beards)!
I play Elven Union and struggling with keeping my players alive as I’m almost always going against bashy teams!!!
I saw that AndyDavo’s downgraded the EU because of armour yet Skaven and Dark Elves remained high. How does that work? I’m a newish player and I’m starting to think that Blood Bowl needs the high armour teams, sadly these teams feel boring to play (for me).
I had levelled up an Orc team in campaign mode and that was super quick and fun!! But I think that’s because the AI was lacking quite a bit.
I do think I’m struggling because of server stability too. Getting injuries and then the server kicks you out and you don’t have the gold to buy players back makes for a poor experience, not to mention the loss of the SPP you had earned along the way!!!
I'm no expert, but from what I gather. Stay away from them as much as possible.. Don't get into a bash war. Pick targets wisely. The last game I watched , he got crushed by a bash team that was rolling well. Sometimes, the dice are against you. The less you roll, the less they can screw you up. I'm still learning and played through all the races in BB2 and BB3.
Most of the teams in 3 ATM aren't as well rounded IMHO as in 2 till they get released. Necro and Lizards are great because they have both bash and speed.
Necro is getting change so not sure I'll still like it.
The new rat ogre is decent. Just don't stand next to it. That adds a bit of bash, but you're probably not winning a bash war with it. My ultimate suggestion is..
Play the team that gives you the most problems. You'll see it from their perspective and how they think. This may help in developing strategies when you see their weaknesses and strengths.
Most of the time the weakness is probably going to be movement and agility. A black orc isn't going to catch a gutter runner even on a good day.
Perpetual League favors the bash teams for staying power. Doesn't stop me from playing Eleven Union though. Find wins to be 'easy' as long as you are careful at low to mid tiers. Spammed guard and mighty blow make it difficult at high tiers.
One of the reasons Blorcs are so bad is because they're a stunty team that's trying not to be one. They need to be reworked.
Im new to blood bowl but I made an OWA team because it reminded me of Lord of the rings for some reason. Now everything I see about them says they are terrible. Should've done my research 😞
"not really a black orc coach"
I give it until the first "what team should I play" vote when BB3 is fixed!
Looks like you fully missed the Wood elves Andy.
This video was accurate as of time of release. Its missing the races releasd since; Woodies, undead, lizards and Underworld.
And to a lesser extent High elves. Also there are none of the stunty teams, but Andy don't like those. Understandable that the teams of legend aren't in there.
@@AndyDavoBloodBowl Would be cool to see another of these tier lists somewhere around the end of 2024 when most of the teams should be present.
I really hope you start playing black orcs because it's obvious you have no experience playing them. I'm not saying they deserve a higher rating or whatever but your analysis of the team is just non-existant. You're basically saying they suck and that's it. I guess it's clear now why your BO guide was the shortest and worst of the guide series aswell. Cheers.
It was 1st guide and it was based mostly on theory crafting, research talking to experienced coaches who have used them.
They are factually worse than most other teams in bb3. Am I an expert with them, no, am I way off, I also think no. I'll accept I'm not bang on, sure
You are sure really productive.
thank you
@@AndyDavoBloodBowl The changes to reduce damage combos and the reduction of the chance of players dying... probably saved the game for me. The passing thing was also good.
And now dwarfs can sage their points To get counter gaurd
Don't agree on black orcs being a c tier team. B tier certainly.
The thing is, they're a new-ish team and people have no idea on how to use them. They're like dwarves and grind their opposition down. you use grab to organise fouls and surf players, but when and how is a complicated question for new coaches. So they have an OK start, or actually a good start even with 3 rr and 6 BO, but they are not beginner friendly.
where is the lizardmen?
Oh, boy can't wait to see him say elfs are super weak..... despite having the best stats for Blood bowl, why do you think everyone and their mums want AG4 on their teams? (*Spoilers its not cause they hit harder, its cause it make the core aspect of the game a joke)
Im going to be the "as*hole" Around 3:00 you say Chaos Renegates, but you are pulling and talking about Chaos Chosen. ok.. im back to watching video...Sorry.. dont hate me. Btw i wonder if anyone can beat Nurgle at bottom at anypoint...Exiting! Nurgle with comeback at the end. Skill ranking would be cool.
big brain
I don’t understand how the orcs are just better than black orcs
Best starting team is no doubt Undead, but BB3 has not it and will charge extra $ for it.
It will be obtainable for free
gotta get that Battlepass money, it's the future of gaming y'know! (since lootboxes are Illegal)
@@書けるクマ How?
Free in a year, possibly sooner
A greenskins alliance would be amazing team BO O G S
Nobility twam is s they can Stop a lot of teams with skills
Khemri. Settled. Comments off.
Dwarf teams are still s late game you dont know how good they are i already have a good teamm with 2 runners and a piledriver steaky git slayer
Would love to get matches in against you Andy. I don't have the money to donate but wish I could thanks for the great vids man from one long time coach to another happy blocking 🙂
Delighted you watch! Maybe we will play some day
@@AndyDavoBloodBowl that would be great fun
My brother started playing BB3 recently and he was matched up with Andy yesterday!! Obviously Andy destroyed him 😢😂😂
I would say chaos chosen should be a higher tier all their beastmen get ST4 on blitzing and have access to general strength and mutations making beastmen amazing ball carriers as soon as you get 6 spp chaos blockers having the same access is amazing deffo think you put chaos chosen in the wrong tier missed the mark on that one nobility are not A Tier by far they should be B Tier