Episode 1: Dear Madison | FT
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- Опубликовано: 22 янв 2024
- Madison Marriage receives an email from a desperate father named Stephen. Over the past five years, he says, his twin daughters have changed drastically. They were bright and outgoing, with exciting plans for their future. But over their early twenties, they became increasingly distressed, struggling to eat or sleep and disassociating from normal life. Stephen believes the root of his daughters’ problems is a particular network of intensive meditation retreats.
For support or more information about adverse meditation experiences, take a look at the Cheetah House website (www.cheetahhouse.org).
If you are in need of urgent mental health support, please contact your local emergency services or reach out to a mental health helpline, such as the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline (988lifeline.org) in the US or Samaritans (www.samaritans.org) in the UK.
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Goenk retreats are given freely. No charges are made. Donations are accepted.
I've sat 16 goenka retreats and they are mostly positive experiences.
It's a ten day meditation boot camp. But they don't allow people wirh serious mental health issues to attend as it can be an intense experience. Nobody onsite is trained in mental health. Some people lie on their application firms hiding mental health issues. The majority of people benefit from the meditation.
I agree. I too know people who have largely benefited from these retreats, but they go to them after learning meditation from other teachers - so they have a very good understanding of meditation (what to do, etc.), before going for these retreats. I guess if one goes to these retreats thinking of learning meditation for the first-time, then they would feel lost (and may spend their time ruminating alone on their stressors).
As someone who left on day one! A lot of it resonates. Cults are all similar
I had a similar experience a couple years ago when I took Transcendental Meditation. Fortunately I have the kind of personality that said "screw this" and stopped, but I did go through the five worst days of my life.
At the risk of sounding arrogant I believe I have learned something that may answer both the questions of what happened to the girls and why this organization, and all others involved in meditation, will not address their failings. While I enjoyed the podcast and certainly see valid causes that added to the tragedies such as sleep deprivation, I believe the most important issue was missed.
"You get what you concentrate upon" (Seth material).
I think we are all aware of the power of the mind, placebo effect biometric feedback etc., are but a few examples.
We would expect a child who's been continually belittled and berated by his parents to grow up to have insecurities and possible suicidal thoughts. What would happen to a person if these ideas are presented by the self to the self in powerful concentrated form over hours and hours. Put someone into a situation in which they're basically asked to highlight to themselves over and over they're unworthiness. Even if it's wrapped in the package of identifying certain physical parts of your body and looking to remove "impurities"
What we are talking about here is the power of the mind to create the image and the beliefs that it's being fed. The core of the problem doesn't rest with this particular organizations it doesn't even rest totally with the idea of meditation or eastern mysticism. It rests in a very powerful prevalent belief that invade all religions. That the flesh is inherently evil, bad, wrong and needs to be eradicated.
This can only be countered by refusing to believe in that statement and believing in the inherent goodness of us all. Asking this organization to admit to its faults is like asking the Catholic Church to admit to the errors in its theology. I believe what I said can be somewhat supported and hinted at when we take a look at what the girls said when they were in psychosis. "I'm killing the universe", "I have done something horribly wrong". These are not words of somebody who simply spent time quietly in their mind. They come from a set of beliefs that are being reinforced over and over and over.
I believe the best approach for those suffering with this is to spend 10 or 15 minutes a day in positive affirmation of their own worth. This needs to be supported with people around them reinforcing that worth.
My heart goes out to those families that have been impacted by this. I say to them what I wish I could say to the girls. If you look within, without the thoughts and words of others, you will find the true goodness and the true peace that you are worthy of. That goodness and peace that the girls now enjoy.
This episode could be compared to a hypothetical (but truly scandalous) story of a person who got herself a, let's say, COVID vaccination and had heart problems afterwards. Would this be due to causality, coincidence or even despite the vaccine (or mediation practice)?
I miss the perspective of a single second person who ever attended a retreat - or, god-forbid, the authors attending a retreat themselves as part of their so-called research...
It's interesting to read the majority of comments here are people defending this style of retreats, but I think having an alternative perspective is important especially if it's literally hurt people like the ones interviewed in this episode.
Why does the FT want to circulate this scare-mongering story? What's the motive? Of course Vipassana is tough. Yes - there may be some casualties - in spite of careful safeguarding - just as there will be with any difficult endeavour. Just check other youtube videos to learn about Vipassana. It is an ancient, powerful and life changing practice.
The experience of the family described in the podcast is very unfortunate indeed. However it’s a pity the FT did not present a full picture. Students are request to fill a form about their mental and Priscila condition before starting. Some may not know they have a problem, perhaps. Thousands of people have been benefiting from this Burmese Buddhist meditation tradition ( which was not created by Goenka). Some of these people are well known, such as Yuval Noah Harari (the FT should seek to interview him on his experience with Vipassana). It was not Goenka who created “global network”, but his students, who voluntarily organized themselves to build new centers. I have been practicing Vipassana for 20 years and have seen the benefits it brought to me and so many people. Vipassana is not a “cult”. During the retreats, Goenka advises students not to turn it into a sect and he calls it just a “technique”. Please FT, do your homework!
I agree with Luis Balduino. Extreme care is taken by the Vipassana organization ( which by the way does not accept government grants as stated here) to screen people who want to meditate but for whom this technique may not be the best choice. Thousands of students are benefitted all over the world by these teachings. But the requirements may be too hard for some. Mr Goenka was a teacher and not a guru in the sense here implied. It is very sad to see his beautiful work twisted this way😮.
There is plenty of positive coverage, and definitely not enough of the opposite. Does anyone ever go on the positive reviews and ask for the "full picture"? If we take the internet as a whole, there is an overwhelming positive picture, and if I'd wager to say this is not reflective of the real picture.
Yeah and goenka isn’t the only Vipassana. It comes within the context of Buddhist modernisation that sought to teach Buddhism to laypeople in Burma in order to preserve the teachings in the face of British colonialism. There are many “schools” of which Sayagyi/Goenka lineage is one.
I know some people who have had very positive experiences at vipassana retreats and credit it with changing their life for the better. These are people who truly embody buddha nature or Christlike love or whatever you'd like to call it.
I also had a meditation teacher who went to a vipassana retreat and left early! He felt like it was too "woo".
The thing that jumps out at me the most is that she expresses feeling like she "failed" in some way at the end of her first retreat because she didn't have the same experience as others or the same experience she was hoping for. I feel like this kind of flies in the face of some of the basic tenants of Buddhism which teaches not to be attached to certain outcomes. Which makes me wonder if the Goeka network(spelling?) is not teaching true Buddhism.
I've studied Buddhism for about 15 years and have practiced meditation for about half that time. I still don't feel remotely ready to tackle something like a vipassana retreat because I think I probably would go crazy because I know a bit about what are some of the things that would probably come up for me.
When I first found this podcast release, it brought up a gross sensation. I smiled, acknowledged the experience, and continued to listen with compassion.. The Goenka method is just another tool in my toolbox that offers support in managing day to day experience
Nicely put
I've studied Vipassana under this guy who once was a city trader and then turned to meditation after exploring other avenues for self constructing. He did a couple months in a Thailand monastery, most of it was living in isolation in a tent in the jungle, under conditions barely encountered this side of the meridians. I never did the full retreat though, yet for what I understood Vipassana is pretty useful, real, and self-realizing. Of course, it's a bloody chore; it's a day's job almost.
For what he told me, the professor I mean, during the retreats he provided, there were cases of people going bonkers. Remember one specific instance of some lad who used to play a lot of FPS games, and the extreme meditation kind of made all the fantasy killing way too real; psychiatric interjection was required there.
There's this saying, "butter ain't for cats" (or some like that). Vipassana is pretty awesome, but it's hard, it's a chore, it's emaciating, very few people can provide the guidance required, most modern life-styles don't allow for such practices. And considering our modern lives here in this side of the globe, it can be pretty dangerous a task to dabble into.
As a PS, my experience, no retreat no extremes, was pretty positive. Yet, the practice is very time intensive, which became a no-no for my current circumstances. And the things you unearthen from those "trips" can be pretty cumbersome (not in my case, gladfully; everything coming from that down-under was pretty awesome to me), if not dangerous. In my case, it helped me sleep without falling into a bad case of bruxism - it pretty much cleared my buffer. It's not a life-long solution though, it's a practice. Yet, there can be things to be learned from that without devoting your time and existance to the practice. Many tasks in daily life I can now process pretty much as Vipassana structures, and after the toil, my mind is refreshed.
There are some movies which depict the state of mind to be acquired by devotion to this practice, like "The Burmese Harp", or that other Japanese movie about the priest Dougen. Yet, this practice is no silver bullet. It surely is a chore, cumbersome, even dangerous. It can help you alleviate suffering or stress, but it's just a tool and the real issue isn't really there in the practice. The real issues are inside and maybe have to be attended by medical professionals rather than meditation instructors. Always keep that in mind.
I've sat 13 Goenka retreats over 15 years, and I have nothing but positive things to report.
If anyone is engaging in manipulation and brainwashing, it's this podcast.
Yeah - I agree
Constant care is needed. Is it that they put too much stress to themselves on meditation? seek help if needed. Overall try enjoy life as it is.
I am a complementary therapist and have seen how therapy-based cults cause mental health issues to clients who either came to me for help after being damaged by a cult or whom I have lost to a cult. By saying lost, I mean those clients' mental health seriously was ruined, they lost their minds, their livelihoods, and more. Sadly, one of these cults have non-profit status and are referred clients to by police victim support. Such an organisation has taken a dear very close relative of mine and split my beloved family. The heartbreak never stops, and I had to go no-contact with the most vulnerable affected members of the family in order to save myself. When they are 16 and legally free, I do not know if they will be mentally free. I do not know if I will ever get that part of my family back from that cult's clutches.
Vipassana is not a cult.
Which therapy-based cults are you referring to? I'd love to hear more.
@adamj2683 I don't want to be sued, and I don't want to push victims to take action. I also am protecting family members. Sorry. But if someone gets a group of people to feel unnecessary fear, gives a solution to do something unusual to allay this fear, and gets the group into a frenzy whilst they do it, on at least one occasion but usually on many, it's probably a cult.
I went on 1 about 8 yrs ago left after 1 night sleep devipration and starvation . Was so terrified it would trigger my epilepsy because of lack of sleep knew i had to leave
I really liked Freakeconomics audio book, it somehow give me the same vibes in a way
I am a lay person but what I think is happening is that Madison is trying to reach some goal. However, since experience varies from person to person and especially the judgement of such experience, it is unclear for Madison whether or not she reached the goal. Then tie expectations of bliss and happiness on a goal you can’t control (the teachers will tell you that you reached it) and you’ve placed your happiness in someone elses hands. It is now external happiness and not internal happiness anymore.
Starting meditation from very little to a 10 day retreat is like learning how to swim by jumping in the deep end. Everybody’s an individual. Some will thrive, some will react badly. Their decision.
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sack newton leng
What in the Saltburn is this?
Meditation should be on the same level as brushing your teeth: mandatory and done daily, ideally twice. its a pity it has been commodified. I have never heard of Goenka and have been sitting for 20 years.
This is such a below average reporting (please watch other channels). Understand Hindusim and what underlying logic. Vipassana (self discovery path) is not a cult. Meditation techniques are not cults. This is slandering- especially ‘leading analysis’ on experience of two girls from same family- not a good sample.
This podcast is so full of false and misleading information.
What a bunch of nonsense! Vipassana is not a cult. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend the retreat or stopping them from leaving anytime. There is some psychological problems with these two sisters and they should not have attended in the first place. It is like saying a mountain climbing club is a cult because someone fell off a cliff.
But it is also true that extended periods of meditation (outside the retreat) are not good for everyone. You should go to such a retreat at most once in six months and outside the retreat do not meditate more than an hour a day.
There are cult elements to this organisation.
@@articleresearch7305 There are cult elements to all 'spiritual' or religious organizations including the Catholic Church. Far more people have committed suicide because of the Church's policies towards LGBTQ+ people than this so-called 'cult'
Cult
Most irresponsible reporting ever. Drunk with confirmation bias against psychology and meditation. Emily clearly is suffering from bipolar disorder. (Godlike mania/suicidal depression/prone to addiction). Bipolar appears around 15-25 revealed by stress (dropped out of college) and went at just 18 BUT they refuse to get her to a psychologist these 7 years. Barbaric! Instead the parents invent free meditation as a cult to avoid psychologists. Why no psychologists interviewed about mental health in the podcast? The other poor souls are suffering with depression and anxiety and probably lied on their intake forms every time the go. Finally, vipassana is buddha's teaching and is adamant about NOT getting into hallucinations and trips. They must have lied to the teachers and hidden that they were fantasizing.