The Iliad - What did Ancient Greek poetry sound like?
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Learn how to recite the first line of Homer's Iliad in six ancient Greek Pronunciations, from Classical Attic to Modern Greek pronunciation. In this video you'll learn how to recite dactylic hexameter, how to render pitch accent in song and in spoken recitation, and how to pronounce Ancient Greek in six different ways. These are skills you need to master if you want to appreciate Ancient Greek poetry, prose, indeed, all literature.
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Hear the first seven lines of the Iliad recited in EIGHT PRONUNCIATIONS on my other channel here: • The Iliad in 8 Greek P...
Sources: see below.
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Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart
00:00 Intro
00:32 Classical Attic Pronunciation
01:50 Dactylic hexameter
03:42 Stage 1: monotone
04:46 Stage 2: ditonal pitch accent
07:29 Stage 3: polytonal spoken pitch contour
08:20 Stage 4: variable spoken pitch prosody
08:50 Stage 5: performance
09:33 Romaic Lucian Pronunciation
10:05 Pompeian Lucian Pronunciation
10:25 Samosatene Lucian Pronunciation
10:37 Antiochene Lucian Pronunciation
10:55 Modern Greek Pronunciation
11:06 Conclusion
SOURCES
Vox Graeca, by w. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3FsiCT6
Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3WdPxSY
Greek: A History of the Language and its People, by Geoffrey Horrocks
amzn.to/3FXYedR
Medieval and Early Modern Greek, by David Holton et al.
amzn.to/3zkhgqO
The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, Edgar Howard Sturtevant
amzn.to/3W4nt45
The Pronunciation of New Testament Greek, Benjamin Kantor
amzn.to/3rBmRc6
A Short Guide to the Pronunciation of New Testament Greek, Benjamin Kantor
amzn.to/46yhNE9
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I would really love a course for ancient greek right know but the pricing of the ALI is ridiculous...I have no budget at all to pay such prices.
As a Greek, man am I so greatful for the work you do on archaic Greek pronunciation! Thanks Λούκας!
And thank you for watching! Ευχαριστώ
I wish my late Greek aunt were here to listen to this. Cheers.
I can still recite the first seven lines of the Iliad from memory, as part of my high school Ancient Greek class, and it’s been 16 years since I took said class.
I can recite a bit of Old Norse even though I don't always realized what I'm saying.
It's much easier than Ancient Greek though as it doesn't feature a pitch accent and the poetry is about alliteration on lifts. Much easier for a native Germanic speaker that is.
The* said class
Oh, I can already tell this video is going to get a lot of views.
I’ll be glad if that’s the case! Thanks for the well wishes
I always translated the first line as “Sing goddess, sing of the wrath of Achilles, Peleus’s son. I thought that fit the cadence best. My spoken Ancient Greek was appalling but I had a friend who spoke it beautifully. Years ago, I think it was in Ephesus, we were at the old theatre. He stood at that perfect place in the center and read for about 10 minutes. It carried easily to the top rows. He kind of chanted it. Beautiful.
Sing to me oh goddess ..... better than singing diva, because in these first verses Homer invokes the goddess, the muse ... sing to me that is, instill in me your spirit of Musa give me the ability to sing of the baleful wrath of the Pelide's son Achilles, who brought endless mourning to the Achaeans
I don't speak Ancient Greek, but Hungarian is very well suited for dactylic hexameter and poets used it at least since the 16th century. I remember how disappointed I was when I first read Iliad in English. It sounded tiresome and rigid after reading it in Hungarian. It took some time to realize that it was the meter that made it such an enjoyable read in Hungarian. After getting used to reading it, it was like riding the waves.
Absolutely, and Hungarians are also expert at Latin vowel length for this reason
Adam K. If you want to read the Iliad in English, check out Rodney merril. He arranges it in English dactylic hexameter. And is the prettiest English Iliad if you ask me.
You remind me one of my schoolteachers in high school, mr Pileas, only difference he was singing while reading in an extreme extent , ... we called him Pavaroti 😂
Χαίρε Ω Πολυμαθή 👋
could any language be more beautiful
-"Canta, Oh diosa! la Cólera del Pèlida Aquileo, Cólera funesta que precipitó al Hades muchas almas valerosas de héroes, a quienes hizo presa de perros y pasto de aves cuando se separaron disputando al Atrida Rey de hombres y el Divino Aquileo..."
Sublime! Love in the Original sound
Video idea: how far back in time could a modern greek speaker go and still be able to communicate.
A video on medieval greek would also be very interesting.
Greeks can understand up until about 2000 bc without any real issues but this is partially because ancient greek is part of the school curriculum
The greek orthodox church basically is reading (or you can say singing) the testament every sunday, the way was written in ancient greek (1st to 2nd century), and most people understand at least the meaning. So I dare to say way back
I did some Ancient Greek (to O level) at school many years ago and have managed to read (or perhaps 'work out' would be more accurate) some everyday modern Greek, Wouldn't feel up to trying to speak it though.
As a native, I think I would have had trouble communicating with anyone who didn't speak koine greek, to be honest. Vocabulary and pronunciation differences would have made holding a conversation difficult. However, since modern Greek and ancient Greek are so connected, I think I would probably be able to make out 40 to 60 per cent of what would have been said.
@filthypeasant I'm also native. I don't really struggle with ancient greek but I was also a top student and relatively young so it's still fresh in my mind
We had to read in the Dactylic hexameter the Iliad and the Odyssey at school back in the 70s in Greece. It was not before the University I managed to read it!
Cowper translation
It’s pretty.
I have just finished Reading the Iliad So this video is GOLD!
Glad it’s useful!
you 're a time machine in flesh and bones my good man. When it comes to step by step guides, this is it.
Very kind, glad you liked it.
Absolutely incredible work, sir! You rekindle life back into Ancient language learning from all perspectives! Masterful!
Very kind! I’m just a voice in a chorus of enthusiasts and glad to share my passions
For me, the most natural pronunciation that is closest to the modern Greek one is the Pompeian Lucian Pronunciation. Once again, fantastic work Luke.
Thanks!
My Greek pronunciation is as good as Homer's! To be fair that's Homer Simpson, but still I'm making progress.
When you sang the verse It sounded so aggressive that It gave me a completely different impression than when I first read this passage. It gives It a completely different feel, less of a temper tantrum for being cheated a slave and more like a man vowing revenge against another who wronged him profoundly.
That's a really interesting interpretation! That's the great thing about exploring AG poetry like this (and Latin too); certain details become evident while going through the process of understanding the mechanics of the verse, which can lead to a better performance.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Very much so.
Please recite the whole thing!
I shall one day!
Based on this video, I now want to hear the entire Iliad read in Ancient Greek. I know the tale well enough that I don’t care if I don’t speak it-I just want to hear this beautiful language.
I’m very flattered! I shall have to record all of it some day. For now, I hope the first few lines are enough: ruclips.net/video/UQyJGmAn3g8/видео.htmlsi=zdlUJu6a1qqQhzuK
I recently found a sung recitation (with some musical backing) of book six on this platform, I can't remember the channel but it's worth searching yo will find it.
I'm a traditional, fixed verse poet and one of my favorite meters - adapted into English prosody, is dactylic hexameter. Learning its ancient metrical history was illuminating.
I strongly agree!
I am in awe of your linguistic accomplishments.
I'm very grateful for the generous contribution, Gregory! Thanks so much. I'm really glad you find it useful.
Great subject (as always)!
I just want to point out, as a fan of metal music, to all those who call it "angry" music and therefore empty of substance and art, that Iliad's centre theme is wrath. And Homer found it pretty inspiring for an epic poem...
Very fair, well said
I would buy a heavy metal rendition of the Iliad. Just saying...
As a teenager, my teacher had me recite Homer as part of learning the poetry. Scanning poetry was great fun.
That’s wonderful
Time travelling and travelling into different worlds is what language-learning allows, and which I enjoy wholeheartedly and avidly. Thank you for this timetravel!
as a lover of ancient greek and roman culture, i love your videos, i am a spaniard that goes every summer to greece and each time i change the place and learn a new thing (not only sunbathing) in every museum we visit...in the coliseum in rome i remember the feeling of imagining the gladiators in the arena , pompey what can i say abou pompey...... Greece is the brain and rome the body of our culture...being my self an engineer i admire what the romans achieved, but i love much more the greek mithology, their ancient culture... i also envy your knowledge of ancient greek and latin...thanks for your channel.. a spark of culture in a superficial world...
I have always wondered what ancient Attic Greek sounded like, not to be confused with Koine Greek.
I’m glad this helped!
Thanks for your awesome work spreading the good news, Luke!
Thanks for all the work you’re during at ALI!
Thank you so much for this type of high quality / informative stuff out there. It’s so useful / interesting.
loving this, thanks for the great work
Glad you enjoy it!
Perfect subject.
Please more of this! Χαιρετίσματα από την Ελλάδα!
Ευχαριστώ! Ιδού ruclips.net/video/UQyJGmAn3g8/видео.htmlsi=Lm-px-uZmQSe1OgH
Of all your videos I love the ones you do on comparing pronunciation conventions the most. On top of that Homer is my favorite “secular “ Greek material so you can imagine how much I am loving these new videos ❤
That’s a huge compliment, Jason, thanks so much! In the next month or so will be the big Lucian Pronunciation variants video on polyMATHY.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Really looking forward to that video a lot!
I've been studying Greek at high school for about 1.5 years now, and it's so fun to learn how it's actually pronounced, since our school isn't gonna teach us any type of pronounciation sadly. I have a redo test in 3 days and I'm trying to get some motivation to study for it, and this did the trick for me. TYSM!
he mentioned my man Farya 🤗 this community is so rich
Farya is a good friend and colleague.
Meu deus , é uma maravilha isso!!!!!
I am missing the sound of an accompanying lyre. Beautifully done!
Very kind! See more soon at ScorpioMartianus
I've been waiting so long :~)
Great video!
Thanks!
Ευγε !
This is very cool. Can we get a longer recitation for us thay didn't study classics but are still interested?
Certainly. It’ll probably be on ScorpioMartianus
Ευχαριστούμε!
Ευχαριστώ πολύ, φίλε!
Gods I wanna study at the Ancient Language Institute 😭 they have a Homer camp this year 😭😭😭😭😭
I felt the urge to create multiple accounts... Just so I can like this video more than once .... Ευχαριστώ...
Very kind, sir!
Another amazing video Lucas! Thank you so much for your work ❤
Greetings from Greece
Ευχαριστώ πολύ!
This is super, super cool.
Now I want to hear you sing everything 🎉🎉
Great video as always! I'm about to start reading Αθήναζε, but I'm a little confused by the way it presents 5th century attic phonology. Could you make a video entirely about 5th century attic Greek pronunciation?
Ciao Simone! Are you using the Italian Athenaze? If you are, ignore the Italian Erasmian pronunciation guide at the beginning, which is odious; there is however a good description of the Classical Attic Pronunciation on p. 435 in the Grammatica di consultazione. Otherwise I have some Athenaze recordings on ScorpioMartianus from many years ago: ruclips.net/video/rsKhcHpYk00/видео.htmlsi=eLPZd1r-brxjq7zf
It's not my best work, but it may help.
And I'm sure I will make that video some day, hopefully soon. Thanks for the idea.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Yes, I'm using the Italian version; this will be very useful. Summās gratiās tibi agō!
Libenter!
I know nothing of Greek aside from the fact that it’s the most beautiful-badass language ever spoken or written.
Danke!
Und ich danke dir!
Daktylo is also the Modern Greek 🇬🇷 word for Finger as well! Cool 😃
¡Muchas gracias señor! 😁
This was fun.
Great! I’m a bit surprised that you didn’t try to reconstruct the Homeric pronunciation.
It’s not reconstructable, without taking enormous leaps. You can determine the sound of Ionic in the 8cBC, but much of the text is from different dialects and much older dialects, so in many places we have no idea.
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Thanks for your reply.
Another great first line to memorize: "Nel mezzo di cammin di nostra vita, mi ritrovai per una selva che la via dirrita era smaritta." And of course there's always "Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate"
Nel mezzo di cammin di nostra vita, ...mi ritrovai per una selva oscura ( pausa....) chè .... la diritta via era smarrita [In the middle of our life's journey, ... I found myself in a dark forest (pause....) because .... the straight path was lost]
anche : tityre tu patulae recubans sub tegmine fagi ( Bucolica Virgilius)
Really ingestuurd in the Ancient Language classes
Many years ago a friend demonstrated that this could be sung to the tune of Sousa's Stars and Stripes Forever -- fun!
Can you make a video like this explaining iambic trimeter in ancient Greek? I'm reading Antigone in Attic Greek now and I've been trying to figure out the best way to recite the lines in meter but finding it fairly difficult, I don't know if you've already made a video like this but if not it would be helpful!
Great question. I will surely make such a video. The short answer is that, if you observe the short and long syllables, you'll acquire the sense of the rhythm just as a native speaker would.
There is the so-called Epic correption, where a final long vowel (or short diphthong) is shortened to a short syllable before another vowel, for example line 61 of the Iliad:
εἰ δὴ ὁμοῦ πόλεμός τε δαμᾷ καὶ λοιμὸ Ἀχαιούς
The δὴ is short.
Hopefully I'll get around to a trimeter video.
Hearing it sung like that is hype af. Makes it sounds like... well... an epic.
Che bello l’esametro! ❤ 👏
Χάριν σοι οἶδα, ὦ ἔρως μου! ❤️
Very intresting!
Now... LET'S DO MYCENAEAN GREEK
A worthy challenge
I can sense the roots of Orthodox church music.
Indeed, Farya Faraji would be the one to consult on that.
Yeah, that's what i heard exactly
now all we need is a full sung version of the entire iliad
This is the best recitation of Homer that I have ever heard. I was fascinated by your rendition in the different pronunciations. I am learning Modern Greek now and I find it difficult to switch back to Reconstructed which I never truly mastered. If I understand you correctly, I could use modern pronunciation and still preserve the meter. I have always been told that one loses the metric appreciation with the moder pronunciation. Is it legitimate for me to use modern pronunciation if I prefer it?
Hi there David, thanks for the compliment, and the comment; it’s a very good question.
The most important part of Ancient Greek poetry (and prose), as I mentioned, is indeed the meter, the long and short syllables, followed by pitch accent. Technically, as you have correctly surmised, since Modern Greek lacks phonemic vowel and syllable length contrast, pronouncing Ancient Greek as a Modern Greek speaker would equally rob any Ancient Greek text of these quantities. My contention is that Ancient Greek literature, just as Classical Latin literature, cannot be appreciated anywhere close enough to be worth the trouble of studying them without reciting the verses with correct rhythmic reading, as I demonstrate in this video.
The qualities of consonants and vowels, β that goes from /b/ to /v/, η that goes from /ɛː/ to /eː/ to /iː/, these changes occurred in antiquity, while phoneminc vowel and syllable length remained the fundamental building blocks of the words, the grammar, the literature. One can certainly use the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation for a Classical Latin poem, but the vowel lengths and syllable quantities must be maintained, otherwise it simly is not that poem anymore. One can also use Modern Greek pronunciation of the qualities of vowels and consonants for Ancient Greek literature, and only be slightly worse off than the Ecclesiastical user in Latin (this is because Modern Greek Pronunciation has underdone a vast number of changes, while Ecclesiastical Pronunciation is relatively conservative with respect to Classical Latin phonolgy).
A good analogy would be a song - any song you like is good. A few of my favorites include Mozart, The Beatles, and Queen. Let’s start with The Beatles: “Yesterday” is one of the more popular ones with most. Now imagine it without music, spoken as a statement, devoid of rhythm and melody. While its lyrics are charming, can you really imagine just the words conveying even 10% of the power of the original, devoid of its most important dimension?
Let’s imagine Queen’s masterpiece “Bohemian Rhapsody,” but just the words spoken as if a speech or a statement; they are quite fascinating, but without the harmonies, the melody, the “song” would be unrecognisable.
Could Mozart’s “Non più andrai” aria be of any value as a plain poem, as written by Lorenzo da Ponte, without the music that makes it transcend the page it was composed on?
So in this analogy, the music of a song are the quantites of a Homeric verse. Now, say you want to perform Yesterday, but you don’t have a Liverpool accent and can’t imitate it. If you have a really different accent, perhaps a stereotypical, strong Minnesota accent, you would sound pretty funny singing “Yesterday.” But it would still be the song, as the melody would be intact. That’s the equivalent of using Modern Greek Pronunciation for Homer. Indeed, a better example would be to sing “Yesterday” with a very strong French accent, or German, accent, or Japanese accent. The most foreign accent you can imagine for “Yesterday,” that’s what reciting Homer in Modern Greek Pronunciation is like. You would lose quite a lot of the subtleties that a native English speaker, especially one who can copy Paul McCartney’s vocal style, could bring to the performance. But it would still be the song.
Reciting Homer without observing the syllable quantities in Modern Greek Pronunciation is just the lyrics of “Yesterday” spoken by a Japanese person with no talent for English phonolgy.
So that said, I want people to appreciate the soul of ancient poetry, so I accept and encourage them to do so in their preferred pronunciation variant; you will lose something, even a considerable amount of important aesthetic beauty, depending how far that pronunciation strays from that of the author. But lots of Japanese people love The Beatles and sing “Yesterday,” and they do it with very strong accents. Still, they know the song, not just the words.
Finally, I recommend learning at least one of the reconstructed pronunciations I presented in the video. Even the most innovative, Antiochene Lucian, retains enough of the ancient qualities to be of greater use when mastering the language as a whole. And the more you practice different pronunciation variants, the more you will appreciate all the things going on from Epic to Classical to Koine.
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Thank you so much for your very thorough response.
Mozart's piano concertos with just the lyrics makes for great ambient tracks though - really giving full emphasis to the piano.
Whew, I made a joke in partial Italian... and I can hear the fully emphasised piano laughter already! =')
@@polyMATHY_Luke
I just read the whole of the Ilyad a couple of months ago
No you gotta sing it lol
This reminds me a lot of ancient Sanskrit vedas :D
I have a random question Loukas. How is Evander or Evandros spelled in Latin Texts & what is the earliest source of his mention in Latin?
Would they have pronounced his name as Ewandros with a W sound like on all V’s.
When did the Greek U letter become a F or V sound when in the middle of word?
A non-Polemic Question for once, still waiting for answers to my other ones btw! :) Thanks in advance! 👍🏻
Salve Luke. I’m not getting why -δεω form just one syllable 2:15. According to the rule it must be 2 syllable -δε-ω. So why is that?
I’d appreciate you to answer my question. Thank you for your all your work.
Hi Nacho! That’s a great question. This a case of diphthongization of two vowels that are normally in hiatus (a hiatus means not a diphthong). This occurs with εω and some other vowel combinations normally in hiatus in Ancient Greek. Latin tends to be much more regular in this regard, with Lāvīniaque > Lāvīnjaque in the beginning of the Aeneid being one of the few exceptions (most of these happen in Vergil, who was the more experimental jazzy poet).
Effectively these are likely completely normal pronunciation variants that occurred in speech, probably with a comparable regularity to the habits of the speakers of the age in which they were writing.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I was looking for this in Pharr’s books and I read (paragraph 586 of phonology) about something called SYNIZESIS, I think it would be the same as diphthongization, because of the definition it’s quietly the same.
Thank you for your help, this language it’s the harder I’ve tried to learn but I love it! And sorry for my bad English…
I cannot believe how close I was with my own attempts before.
I love your videos! Can you teach us how to say the our father in the original greek?
The chief god "Dyeus Fater" (divine father) became "Zeus" in Ancient Greek.
So, we can logically deduce that Ancient Greek had lost the word for father.
Just kidding, it's "patḗr".
Edit: Oh, you meant the Lord's Prayer (Our father who art in heaven...)? X)
@@Meevious The Lord's Prayer as it is in the original koine Greek new testament.
The Iliad! One of my favorites. It is appropriate that this video begins with a translation of the first line, because that tells you what you need to know about The Iliad. It introduces the lesson of the poem.
The song is about Achilles" rage. Yes, there are warrior introductions, gods and goddesses, and battle scenes, but they all serve the song's primary message: Achilles' rage and the resolution of that rage.
The Iliad was no more about that war than 'Gone With The Wind' was about the Civil War, or 'From Here To Eternity' was about WW2; those were simply settings for a more universal theme.
One should consider that Homer's audience already knew the entire story. They didn't listen for any facts - they knew the story entirely. They listened to hear their local hero named in the roll-call , to hear their village named, to thrill at the descriptions of the battles, to excite their imaginations as the gods use their powers that had mere mortals in awe.
Renaissance painters knew their mythology, and knew what the key scene in the Iliad was. It was the moment when Achilles' rage finally melted, and he grants to Priam his son's body. Achilles is at peace with his fate. That was the lesson that the Greek listeners took away after a few nights of listening to the singing of The Iliad.
The Iliad was a confirmation for the audience of their cultural values Everyone should read The Iliad.
Maravilloso, Luke! 😍 Gracias por compartir con nosotros este vídeo ! El griego antiguo parece élfico (en realidad la influencia es a la inversa) : misterioso, lleno de raíces nuestras y significados ocultos, y bellísimo. Espero poder aprender pronto! La pronunciación que me gusta más es la Ática del siglo V aC (me da igual que sea reconstruida ☺️) es la más bella en mi opinión, y además es la pronunciación de Pericles y Fidias (o más bien debería ser Feidías?), de sus estatuas, de la Athena Lemnia, la Promachos, y la Parthenos. Aunque quizás no fuese ni la de Homero ni la de Alejandro Magno. Se sabe cuál era la pronunciación de éstos últimos? Los griegos no usan símbolos para señalar dónde va la fuerza en la palabra, como en español? Es algo muy útil que, por ejemplo, aventaja al español frente al italiano y eso que el italiano también es en cierta manera “reconstruido”.
Thanks! Pardon my responding in English, as I don't have a lot of time at the moment to write in polished Spanish. The pronunciation that would have been current in the late 4cBC when Alexander was conquering Asia would have been very similar to Classical Attic, with a few modifications, which I note here: ruclips.net/video/UkXLAe2-DLY/видео.htmlsi=FCcfL8lWefUFnQAv
6:54 - In what language December is written? 🙂 Thanks for the awesome content!
Yes, it’s a typo
What is your outlook on the pitched accent reconstructions? I have heard many different interpretations of how strong the pitched accent is meant to be pronounced, some very strong, some with very little of a pitched accent at all. Do you have any particular reasoning on why you choose to pronounce the pitched accent to the extent that you do?
Very good question; the answer is my experience as a Japanese speaker. But that said this video is also highly pedagogical in the sense that it’s not a “casual” way of reciting, and meant to point out the important parts so they’re sufficiently audible (I hope). Hearing pitch accent in action for many years, I know it can be quite variable, so many possibilities exist for Ancient Greek. Thus I encourage people to try their best, to use it, to keep learning and practicing, so that together we find equitable ways of expressing pitch accent.
I don't know why should I care but I do. It's free info and a peek into the past. 🙂 Cool video.
I cannot help but recite it with reconstructed digammas, just like Stratakis has done.
And he does very well!
How do you break down the syllable lengths into dactylic hexameter? I’m trying to do the whole first sentence, but I’m having a lot of trouble figuring out which syllables are supposed to be long and which are short since they’re not all “long-short-short” but sometimes “long-long” is it to do with the accent marks?
I really wish my people had poetry, maybe when I learn the language I’ll write some
Hey, I want to ask something of you. I studied some attic Greek in high school, but i feel didn't learn much. Did Old Greeks write from left to right or different? Did they use spaces between words? I heard bustafedon writing was used in early text, and that medieval Irish monks invented spaces between words. Is this true?
Hi there. Really good questions. Boustrophedon had fallen out of favor by Classical Greek times, where most wrote from left to right. Spaces were uncommon in antiquity; instead, an interpunct was often used in inscriptions and in handwriting: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpunct#:~:text=An%20interpunct%20⟨·⟩%2C%20also,interword%20separation%20in%20Classical%20Latin.
tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/2008/06/interpunct-illustrated-and-explained.html?m=1
7:06 “Decemeber” 😂
Deserves 350 million views, minimum.
Very kind!
You should dub a clip from the movie Troy into classical attic Greek…I suggest the lines before the start of the battle Achilles vs Hector. I think you’ll get plenty of views from that clip haha.
Could be fun. If I do, it’ll be on ScorpioMartianus. Thanks
@@polyMATHY_Luke Awesome!
This just makes me so excited to study Classics at uni 😊😊😊
Your gonna be let down lol. It ain't nothing like this. All you do is soullessly parse grammar.
@@Laocoon283 Exactly exciting 🤣
@@jasentra hahah
ancient greek civilization is the greatest of all !
Hey, polyMATHY, I enjoy your videos immensely. I apologize if this is an inappropriate place to ask this, but I was hoping if you could give me an answer to this question. I've read a lot of Roman and Ancient Greek works translated into English, but I'm always left wanting in regard to the spectacularity that would have impelled their preservation. Was their preservation because the non-translated texts' prose/verse much like our language's great writers, e.g., Shakespeare, Melville, Milton, Donne, Poe, etc.? I ask because I can't see what was so special and unique about some of the works. I'll add context by listing the ones I've read and asterisk the ones I'm confused about:
-All three Greek tragedians
-Menander
-Aristophanes* (I just have a hard time reading obscene humor)
-A book of Greek lyrical poetry from various authors*
-Hesiod*
-Theognis*
-Homer (including "his" hymns)
-Thucydides
-Herodotus
-Livy
-Apollonius
-Callimachus
-Apollodorus
-Arrian
-Quintus Curtius Rufus
-Some but not all of Ovid
-Virgil (I'm not too fond of his Eclogues and Georgics, for some reason pastoral poetry bores me)
-Pindar*
-Theocritus (I strangely liked Theocritus)
-Martial* (Really hit or miss)
-Juvenal* (I can't get into satire from different periods Donne wrote a satiric poem and I didn't get what he was satirizing at all)
-Catullus**
-Propertius**
-Tibullus** (These three with the double asterisk [**] I'm ambivalent about)
-Lucretius
-Presocratic philosophical fragments from various including Thales, Anaximander, Heraclitus, Parmenides, etc.)
-Horace* (currently reading and although I'm enjoying I still can't see what was so special about his thoughts)
Thank you.
It sounded like Ancient Greek. Obviously
I wish any one had written down something old dutch, closest you can get is reading Beowulf :( Or old Saxon..
Yes, it’s tragic what has been lost
Registration closes "Decemeber 16th!" If I knew which ancient language Decemeber was, I'd sign up.
Yes, you’ll find typos in virtually every video on RUclips. Sadly they do happen, despite one’s best efforts. Have you ever made a video to then realize after publishing that it had a typographical error, even though you checked every letter in the video twenty times?
Easy for the first sentence, i don't know if i could make it throughout all the book with this tho..
What about the original Homeric pronunciation? It would be [awe:de] instead of [ae:de], but are there other differences?
Absolutely right about the digamma. As for the rest, it’s an extremely complicated argument, since Homeric Greek is a mix of numerous dialects stretching back four centuries from the time they were written down. Thus, does one attempt 8cBC Ionic, when even Homer likely recited the non-Ionic parts in different pronunciations appropriate to the lines? It starts to become more a question of aesthetics than authentic reconstruction. Perhaps it’s doable, though I have seen anyone really explore it. One day.
Since I guess that the ablauting ἀοιδή shows that the ει in ἀείδω is not a lengthened ε, but a diphthong, it could have been more like [áwei̯de]. But then again, since we have so little material from this time, who knows? Was υ still [u] or already [y]?
How does the final syllable count as 'long' since it has a short vowel (omicron)?
In Ancient Greek and Latin poetry, when a word at the end of a line ends with a short syllable, that syllable has to be lengthened to the equivalent of a long syllable for rhythmic consistency.
Hi, Luke! I've noticed that Sidney Allen didn't exactly have the opinion you attributed to him about the classical pronunciation of ει.
He concluded instead (at page 79, in my edition): "These developments are most easily understood if one assumes that in the classical period ει before vowels, unlike before consonants (see p. 67), stands for [eyy], in which only later does the [ey] portion develop to monophthongal [ẹ̅] (with the second [y] then becoming an automatic glide)."
So, contrary to your reconstruction/spreadsheet, according to Allen ει + V in the classical period would have been pronounced [eyy].
Would you like to discuss these alternative conclusions of Allen, maybe in your channel Polymathy+?
Thanks!
Ciao Riccardo! That is indeed a very good topic. You'll notice that I'm not using Allen's reconstruction for Classical Attic in this video - for example, Allen makes a big deal on p.60 that short ε ο are not closed vowels /e o/ but open /ɛ ɔ/, a notion that is based on their result in Modern Greek. Allen also concludes that ου is best rendered as /uː/ rather than /oː/. Teodorrson has a much more nuanced, and I think much better, interpretation of the data here, which you've probably seen, since you're a fan of polýMATHY+ (thanks for that, by the way). Allen conflates, as he does with Latin, the data available of the centuries that follow in order to establish the pronunciation of certain letters, like ε ο ου, which in Classical Roman times doubtless had the qualities he ascribes (hence the Romaic Lucian Pronunciation), as Teodorsson confirms for 1cBC Attic.
Moreover, if Teodorsson is right, then there were at least two subsystems in Attic in the 5cBC, meaning that Allen's attempt to resolve certain contradictions, as you mentioned, are probably unnecessary. His assertion that the glide would occur in all αι οι αυ ευ and thus also ει before vowels is interesting and an acceptable reconstruction, but also, I think, unnecessary if we understand there to have been more than one competing subsystem in the dialect.
Competing subsystems could be an explanation. But this hypothetical subsystem is not listed in your updated spreadsheet (you provide /eː/ as the only conservative variant even for the 6th century BC). Have you changed your mind in the meantime or do you think that an "Allen's variant" is actually improbable?
There is another question I would like to ask you. As you know, there is no Ancient Greek version of Wikipedia. That would have been a great didactic tool and also a means of language revival (and even a nice proper nouns repository). Actually a Wikipedia incubator project with almost 2000 articles exists since many years, but it is not going to be approved and published because the policy of Wikipedia as of now denies eligibility of "dead" languages. Latin, old English and Sanskrit among others were approved before this policy change (apparently Classical Greek did not reach that goal tightly: the policy changed while it was going to be published). This is pathetic but there is no easy solution. There was a petition on Wikipedia, most commentators were in favour of enabling Ancient Greek but the proposal was rejected by the "Language Committee", which apparently is one person (or at least just one commented), who seems to have ideological prejudices against it. Did you ever take an interest in this issue? Do you think there could be something we could do to change things? Thanks!
Another Question Loukas. Your name is believed to come from Lucania, Ive heard theories that it’s ultimate etymology may be from Leukania = White Place in Greek [Perhaps there are white Rocks & Soil there idk], what is your opinion on that, have you ever researched it? Of course, we know that Lucania [in Italy] had its own people: the Lucani, not necessarily Greeks but may have been named by the Greeks…do we know?
Loukas is the Greek Name given in the NT of a follower of Paul. It signifies that he may had an origin from Lucania. In the Greek Language, we also get our name for Sausages from there, the Loukaniko. I think they were known for making them in antiquity & the Greeks ran into them.
Thanks in advance! 👍🏻
How certain are we of the accuracy of these reconstructions?
Very. See the sources in the description.
I've noticed that you pronounce the /T/ sound aspirated just like in English. Is this how it was pronounced in ancient Greek too?
I'm pretty sure that Attic Greek has an alveolar aspirated t for θ.
@@Brandon55638 Ok. Thanks!
That's right. You'll see it in the IPA transcription.
How much do you think turning archaic words into song form altered the original words? For example Achilleos in the song was originally a-ki-re-u or a-ki-re-we in Linear B texts. Was Achilleos a true evolution of akireu in everyday language or just invented because it fit in the poetry?
Linear B is not a good representation of the phonology of the language in that period; the orthography doesn’t distinguish L from R, and doesn’t show geminates or final consonants. Horrocks has a good IPA transcription model in his book. That’s where you can find the answer.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I barely speak one language so all those words went over my head, but thank you for the suggestion! :)
❤❤❤❤
Did you just translate "menis" as "anger"? Do you want to bring out the *wrath* of Homer nerds?
Very useful video though, I don't have the ear for poetry, so it's nice to have this spelled out really slowly.
Hehe I suppose I used a very simple translation, to be as non-obtuse as possible. Glad you liked the video.
Listening to the ancient Greek pronunciation of Achilles, it kinda sounds similar to a commom Indian name Akhilesh. Even the meaning of the name in in Hindi is synonymous with 'immortal' or 'indestructible' (characteristics often attributed to Achilles) and is considered one of the many names of Lord Shiva. Given the rich history between ancient India and Greece, and also the fact that the name Sikandar (the persian name for Alexander, meaning defender or warrior) has been made a popular name as well, I wonder if it is a similar case for the origins of the name Akhilesh? Maybe ancient Indians were enamoured by the Greek epic enough to adopt the name? I am genuinely curious.
Interesting idea. They don’t seem to be connected: en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ἀχιλλεύς#Ancient_Greek
en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/अखिलेश?searchToken=816588r70ekqosz1jk2j47hez
Given that the Greek etymology is unknown, it's not impossible, right?
If "a-" meant "not" both in Greek and in Sanskrit, we just need Greek "ki-re-u/ki-re-we" to be a cognate for Sanskrit "khila" for the whole names to be cognate. We're half way there! =p
@@polyMATHY_Luke