i think something like this would generally benefit all long running series that have at least 2 major types of gameplay. monster hunter already does this switching between larger and slower-paced hunts i.e in world and quick fast-paced hunts in rise. fire emblem really comes to mind for me as a series that would benefit from doing this by switching between more open sandbox-y experiences like three houses and more on rails gameplay like the gba games and por.
Zelda is starting to remind me of a band that does a string of amazing albums that are each moderate successes, but then they release an album that is still good but has a very different sound, but completely blows all previous albums out of the water in terms of sales. And then that album becomes their sound from now on.
@@iggypop2026I would argue that Skyward Sword had a better story, better side quests, better characters, better dungeons, and arguably better combat (depending on how much you prefer motion control shenanigans over physics engine shenanigans) than BotW. If it wasn't for the fact that it was so linear, the Sky Islands so barren, and OG Fi being so intrusive, it would have held up just fine alongside the prior 3D Zelda games.
I really wish I could look at that quote with optimism, but when you recall the context of everything he's said the last few years, I believe he one BILLION percent took the wrong message and is still pushing ahead with this open ended design. I would just so infinitely rather he pour this energy into a new ip rather than dragging Zelda into it and insisting it's the same so we don't ever have to look back ever. I hate to say it but I really don't trust Aonuma with Zelda anymore, as long as he's making the main decisions I have no faith in the result going forward.
It feels like the Zelda team has always had a particular fondness for specifically ALttP and LA, and it's their attachment to those that have allowed 2D Zeldas to live. I really want something truly new, though. It doesn't have to be entirely unique or a return to form. But it'd be nice to have something take place in another kingdom again!
Wow, Arlo and I see perfectly eye-to-eye on Zelda. I don't think any of the bigger names in the Nintendo space have really said they were disappointed in BOTW/TOTK. I was. I enjoyed those two a lot, but they're not ALTTP. Echoes of Wisdom was honestly a step in the right direction. True dungeons, good bosses, okay music, and a story that doesn't have me getting the details in memories. It's much better. I hope we continue to see Zelda blend classic and more modern Zelda game designs. Maybe we'll see some of the more classic 3D games *truly* remade (like Ocarina of Time) in a modern engine (but not like the Unreal crap you see all over RUclips). Thanks for the video, Arlo. I stand by you on this!
random, but have you played Tunic? i dont even like 2D zelda that much, but i thought that game was incredible. nails that "puzzle box" appeal of 2D zelda perfectly imo, with some puzzle solutions that genuinely blew my mind
I don't think the open endedness is the problem, but that you can just cheeze the puzzles too easily. Open ended puzzles can be tricky and interesting.
I agree. Open-opened puzzles are very tricky. In echoes, I know players can cheese many of the puzzles by using the water blocks to essentially skip the puzzle. The same thing happened in TOTK. It kinda defeats the purpose of the puzzle, which is a shame
i think the issue is that nintendo wants to balance their games in a way where anyone can beat it, regardless of their approach. so they kinda have to create a bunch of potential solutions to puzzles, which inevitably leads to many puzzles that can just be solved the same way cuz certain solutions just have so much use. i think they just need to find that middle ground. allow for creative "outside the box" thinking in puzzles, but don't give the player a nearly infinitely sized toolbox like in Echoes
I'm glad 2D Zelda is getting another chance to shine, but I hope they don't go ALL in on freedom like they've done with 3D Zelda. Sad that the sales are so low compared to the recent 3D games. I imagine with how much people love the new open world style of Zelda, going back to a more linear 3D game would result in similarly low sales.
One thing I think people are ignoring are that yes, new people are buying switches, however not everyone who owns a switch is actively using it now. I’ve barely used my switch this year and have mostly been playing games through my computer and steam deck. So while the install base is growing, not all of those numbers are for people who are actively using their switches or are just waiting for the next system to come.
I agree. Another issue is that when they focus on doing something brand new, they neglect to Perfect ideas from earlier games. Twilight Princess is a good example of this, it is Not a perfect game. But it does so many things so well that many fans of the old style continue to praise it for "Perfecting Classic Zelda".
I mean its a series that has been going on for 20+ years from time to time they are allowed to try something different and new . Some of their best games have come from innovative gameplay and ideas
yeah nintendo does this way too much, even outside of zelda. f-zero and star fox have been dead for so long cuz nintendo thinks they need some crazy new idea. when really, people would be happy with a standard sequel as long as it's good. heck, even look at 3D mario. we easily could've gotten an odyssey sequel that refined on its many ideas that weren't fully fleshed out (smth like galaxy 2). but nah, nintendo wants to save 3D mario as a launch title. so the next game will inevitably be smth completely different from odyssey
I loved BotW. But I feel this new structure got stale already with Totk. I really hope they keep optimizing top down Zeldas without losing their essence.
Same I miss the dungeon item juice combo. The metroidvania if you will of Past Zelda's. And I feel like they never really Incorporated that part into the overworld all that well, there's a lot of room for improvement and I'm worried we'll never see it now
Wdym by the structure? There’s still tons of potential for open world zelda. We already know that the next one is going to have some big changes anyway, it’s not going to be botw 3 or anything.
I really liked Echoes of Wisdom, but I think a lot of my enjoyment stems from me not engaging 100% with every single gameplay possibility. I forgot about Reverse Bind immediately, didn’t realize you could use the spider to bypass the majority of the environmental obstacles and limited myself to a handful of echoes that weren’t overwhelmingly op (not on purpose, I just lost interest in trying out new echoes after my inventory was full of fifty thousand of them). I’m actually glad I did those things, since the limitations forced me to think creatively instead of taking the easiest solution. After a while, specifically after getting the water block, things do start to feel a little easy and stale, but for the most part the exerpience was neat and focused. I hope the Zelda team loses their aversion to limitations and realize that all the freedom isn’t always a good thing 😅
0:26 Only four days, actually. EoW released on September 26th and the report accounted for up to the 30th. Considering how Switch games don't really have legs anymore, I doubt that means it's going to sell a crap ton, I'm guessing this is still the majority of EoW's total sales. I'm guessing we're gonna get like 4 million total? Maybe a little less?
I think you’re a tad harsh on Echoes but I understand. Zelda should focus on the traditional style and just enhance story beats and combat. Personally would like to see a 3D imagining of the final level in Zelda 1. Labyrinth maze like dungeons (not like BotW) would be incredible.
I think the echoes worked because I found a few I liked and THOSE felt like the dungeon items The Great Fairy made the game really fun, too. Some of those equippables REALLY felt like upgrades. The frog one? Changed the game.
i hope people can be a little nicer to fans who dont like open ended puzzles and the freedom paradigm now that even big popular youtubers are normalizing it... we arent all nostalgic and mean, its just taste
I think it’s the opposite, traditional fans are some of the worst people to interact with. Arlo even in this video comes off the same. The formula of older IPs change all the time but Zelda fans simply can’t accept it for whatever reason when everyone else points otherwise
Agreed. Its annoying to see people act like nuisances every time someone expresses their opinion that old zelda is better. I often hear them talking about open-world zelda as if its an objective improvement, when its really not. Both styles haves their pros and cons, its just awful for what is essentially a different type of game to completely subsume the older one. The open world games and traditional zelda can coexist; Metroid didnt abandon 2d after Prime came around.
In my case at least, when the switch came out, I was in high school and had a lot more time to play games. I bought most of the major releases. I am now college graduate and have a lot less time, and so I have skipped many games that looked appealing to me. Now I only really pick up switch games that are supposedly absolutely amazing instead of simply great.
@ As background noise while doing work, or when taking a break, yes. What I do not often have time to do is play every new game as they come out. I have a backlog now despite rarely buying games.
If there is more original new top down Zeldas in the future that pleases me. Despite any fault this game might have, the echo mechanic is so fun to me that this game is amongst my favorite Zelda games I’ve played, about 15-17 hours in
I really liked Echos of Wisdom, even though they have things to improve. The development team is very talented. I just hope they keep trying new things. The old formula was really stale for me. But not every game need to be like Echos of Wisdom. They can try new ways to hive freedom, like in A Link Between Worlds
This is really good news. I wonder if the top-down Zelda games will go back to having Link as the protagonist or continue to have Zelda as the protagonist. I suppose it will all depend on what core gameplay mechanic they come up with next; personally, I hope to see the return of something like Spirit Tracks, where the player controls both Link and Zelda.
Of course, Arlo posts this a day after I finally clear A Link Between Worlds (my first Zelda game). Absolutely wonderful game and what they did with Ravio was a clever reference back to Link to the Past.
Nintendo irks me with how they want to present new ideas, but don't have faith enough in their name alone to make a new IP, new experience. Breath of the Wild could have been a title to a new IP by itself, new characters, new stakes. Using the early film industry as an example, big directors wouldn't be the same if they had to use their best movies as a prop for their new projects...
It took the series back to its more seamlessly open-ended roots while expanding on the concept and adding a bunch of new ideas. It's progress and is necessary for older IP's to maintain relevancy.
@@DJWoozie That doesn’t make sense. It is obvious that BOTW was the Zelda game that the developers had wanted to make for a long time but couldn’t due to technological constraints.
Arlo, I say this without a hint of sarcasm - It sounds like you know exactly what you want from top down Zelda, why not see if you can actualize your vision in your own top down action-adventure game? I don't mean this as a "Don't criticize if you don't make" thing, I mean this as a "Spite can be a good motivator for creativity." - The Sapling seems to exist out of Frustration that EA didn't do Spore correctly, Super Dungeon Maker seems to exist because Nintendo won't make a Zelda Maker, and so forth. Obviously it wouldn't be easy, but... You might enjoy the process.
There have been a few top-down Zelda-like games: Ocean's Heart and Blossom Tales being two examples, and I'm currently making one in my spare time (though it's really more of a celebration of multiple old top-down games and it's far from finished); I think it would be neat to see more top-down Zelda-like games.
True for me too, at least when comparing EoW to TotK. TotK was just too big, and too much engineer simulator. Echoes at least was small enough that I could dip into the new system and really feel like I'm learning it, instead of just getting overwhelmed with the possibilities in TotK
The plan seems to have always been to have Grezzo take over 2D Zelda. Like how Mercury Steam took over 2D Metroid. Also Echoes of Wisdom does have item-based progression. Every object that you can turn into an echo is an item. You also mentioned that each game doesn't need to have a revolutionary new idea but then praised the wall-merging mechanic from A Link Between Worlds, that was their big idea for that game. Mario and Zelda games are primarily built upon new gameplay ideas that radically alters how players interact with the world. Like FLUDD from Sunshine or time travel in Oracle of Ages.
Honestly, I think that Nintendo just has some sort of grudge against the TP and SS UI designers, considering that they keep using ribbon menus in games that focus on quickswapping between tools/abilities despite having learned that a snappy quickswap ring works perfectly for that in those two games. Like, I'm pretty sure that putting the hand powers on a quickswap ring in TotK while leaving everything else on ribbon menues was specifically to give a middle finger to people (read: me) who had been begging to put everything on quickswap rings during BotW's era, to show that they could, but we're specifically costing not to. Especially with how they put the map on one of those permanent quickswap ring slots, even though you can usually access it with one button press most of the time.
3:10 If Nintendo wanted to encourage players to use different echoes, they really missed a good opportunity to just add in a quick-action button that randomly spawns one of your echoes, at least for offense. I know I would’ve used it, especially if it kept me active in the game rather than moving through a menu!
I suspect the new 3D Zelda game will be about building your own ships and sailing the seas. Also under water exploration. Wind waker on steroids. Where else can they take that botw formula to feel fresh? They've already done sky, land and caves.
I just hope Grezzo can keep making original Zelda titles. Even if EoW isn't everyone's thing, it clearly proved that these devs have talent and passion to do more than remakes.
While my college semester is still going, I’ve had more time and energy to just put towards this game to continue it, I love this game sm, still good to hear that it got that many sales at least! And yeah I agree that the form of using echos via scrolling isn’t great feeling, regardless of the gameplay design intent
Tbh, I think all echoes need (Zelda games with echo mechanics can be Zelda's "thing") is faster attack animations and not-shitty menus. I agree though, open-ended puzzles kinda suck. But I think Echoes did it WAY better than Tears.
I didn't even buy TotK cuz I just didn't like how open BotW's dungeons were. It just felt boring and with no progression. Not to mention the weapon system made me never wanna use stronger weapons that'd break quickly. I don't want open ended puzzles. I want a tighly designed Zelda game. And this doesn't make them linear. I would never call any of the 2D Zeldas linear, you still explored the world however you wanted to, but of course you needed the right items to keep moving forward, so eventually you'd realize "oh, I have to go to that dungeon first". That's called exploring.
I enjoyed Echoes of Wisdom for what it was. There was nothing spectacular about it. The one thing I remember most was towards the end of my playthrough, I had my energy full and I bought a bunch of smoothies that would refill energy. I just walked across the entire map in swordfighter form chugging smoothies. But, that's not what I should remember the game for. lol Like I don't even remember, were there accessories to reduce energy consumption? Or was that just for the particles? If I can't remember that much, then the game didn't make much of an impact on me. It passed the time though.
FWIW, I absolutely did find myself trying out certain echoes partly because of seeing them while scrolling through my options. I'm not saying that it was the right decision, I'm just saying that they also weren't 100% wrong.
10:05 I was worried about this when the first Ultrahand trailer released and I've been talking about it since. It really sucks seeing people slowly coming to the same conclusion. Also, I swear with every new interview it sounds like Aonuma is losing faith in the Zelda series more and more. First he didn't understand why people liked the linear 3D Zelda games, then he thought 2D Zelda had no place in the series anymore... While I'm happy he's starting to get his head back in the game, it doesnt exactly inspire confidence that the face of the Zelda series was thinking all of this in the first place
I agree. But the thing is with creative people like that, is they are their own biggest critics. They often think their earlier work is trash. I was just watching a video yesterday that listed the very few Beatles songs that John Lennon liked.
Creativity doesn’t grow on trees. If the team doesn’t know what else they can do with traditional Zelda, then we shouldn’t encourage them to make the same carbon copy repeatedly.
Speaking of people buying less games near the end of the switch, I think a big contributing factor is how much prices for things have risen so people are being very picky about the games they buy. I can see this being a big issue for the switch 2.
Here’s why as the install base grows sales don’t grow. 90% of people I know who own a switch bought it for a few specific games and it is now collecting dust in their living room. In the Nintendo bubble people think everyone with a switch plays it regularly but that is far from true
I really enjoyed Echoes of Wisdom, but the echoes really did become less and less relevant the more you got, because you got the one set of specific ones you used for everything and that was it, the UI was awful but i think the actual worst part was the lock on camera, because it was so inconsistent and would never lock on to what i wanted it to. EoW gets an 8 from me, most of that comes from the story and being able to play as zelda, i think I would prefer a more traditional 2D zelda game starring zelda where she just gets spells like link gets items.
They could make more Zeldas like ALTTP, Link's Awakening, Oracle of Ages/Seasons, Minish Cap, A Link Between Worlds and Echoes of Wisdom, or more non-top-down Zeldas like Adventure of Link, Wand of Gamelon, Zelda's Adventure and Link's Crossbow Training? Hmm, tough choice...
I think its kinda dumb that there should be any doubt about this. But at the same time, there was a decade gap between NSMB games and Wonder and top down Zelda between this and ALBW were multiplayer game, remake, indie developed rhythm game, so fair enough. Not to mention Mario Kart 9's eternal absence, things just...don't happen sometimes.
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, but I'm so sick of the open-ended puzzles. Whenever I solve a puzzle in a way that is clearly not how the developers intended, I don't feel like I outsmarted the developers, I feel like I cheated. It was fun for Breath of the Wild. It was a fresh new take and I enjoyed it. But it just doesn't work for me long-term. I crave the structure and tight design of older Zelda games.
I'm okay with another top-down Zelda. I do, however, do NOT want another Echoes of Wisdom. The echo and combat systems were far too frustrating for me. I didn't even finish EoW because I was too frustrated with it. Which is disappointing for Zelda's first solo adventure. I really wanted to like it. I really did. If another Echoes game comes out, I will not buy it, which is a shame since I've bought all the previous Zelda games that came out in the past 20 years
Not really. It seems like it's gonna be one of those "I say I really like the game but talk only about it's problems thus contradicting myself" kind of reviews. He gushed over the game in one video, then brushed it off at the end of a different video. I don't care whether people love the game or hate it, but just be consistent about your opinions.
@@mr.awesome6011 What are you doing here? Get out at this point. You can have nuianced opinions, if you can't handle it this isn't the channel for you fam.
As someone who has often struggled to enjoy topdown/2D Zelda because of the puzzle and progression structure (this also applies to most 3D titles in fairness, just less so), I felt like Echoes of Wisdom finally gave me what I wanted in a 2D Zelda. The open-endedness with easy ways to explore the map made navigating feel so much better, which was already a huge plus. The dungeons, usually a low point for me in these, were fantastic imo because the puzzles were structured in a way that I heavily preferred. Having one rigid solution to something has never been my cup of tea.
And god willing more vigorous lore connections are implemented :P I'm not demanding massive story, as they've recently said that's not the Zelda process, but connected narrative and lore would be so much better. Echoes of Wisdom expanding the very cosmology of the universe was such a sweet surprise.
Watching the gameplay footage here, those brief moments where you slashed enemies with your sword looked more fun than the rest. Straightforward and satisfying.
Yeah I saw no one day that about the menu. It was built intentionally. But of course gamers always know better. I've been saying for months people should consider that their thoughts on the menu just don't align with Nintendo's requirements for the menu. You may not like it but it's clear Nintendo had a design principle in mind with this.
Thought the same after TOtK, but EoW was surprisingly fun for me. So I‘ll for sure get the next 2D title, but for 3D I‘ll have to wait and see unfortunately.
@@chrislevack405 Aonuma literally said a few months ago in an interview that “open solution” is here to stay. You are setting yourself for disappointed by thinking otherwise.
I DO NOT agree that the echo list was only a small problem. I have not completed the game because of how awful it makes the experience for me. It was awful in totk, it's awful here, I'm tired of it. I genuinely don't know if this will be the first zelda game I don't beat. It's that bad for me. I love so much about this game. I love zelda. I'm not saying this to be a contrarian or special or whatever. It's genuinely that bad.
I hated it in totk too, this is why I didn't use the side scrolling list here at all. Pausing and selecting from the menu like I was selecting items in the old games in the pause menu actually worked really well for me and made it easier to find things
Here we go with the unnecessary hatred towards open world Zelda again smh... If anything, Echoes of Wisdom is the definitive blueprint of what Zelda should be going forward for both 3D and 2D while still maintaining the traditional elements that worked before and the game itself reflects that by fixing the problems that BotW and TotK had. The fact that you are so against good change and you want Zelda games to get worse and regressed just because "new bad" is so annoying and lame.
The funny thing is that open-ended exploration was the intention of the series from the beginning. The transition to 3D forced them into a more linear structure. And they have been trying to get back to that initial design philosophy for decades. So it's really ironic that people don't necessarily like it
It's not ironic at all. I'm also going to preface this by saying BotW is in my top 5 zelda games, and one of my most beloved games of all time. I'm not a hater of the new formula. But, regardless of the vision of early zelda devs, those were NOT the games that were made. Games with structure and linear puzzles were the games we got for decades. Those were the games people came to know and enjoy zelda as. It makes total sense that many of the zelda fans cultivated throughout those years don't like the new direction. That isn't how the old games were designed. They don't care what the devs had in mind at the beginning. They care about the kind of game they fell in love with.
I really can't agree with you. I always dreaded dungeons in Zelda because they were the end of open-endedness. It use to be "do this, then do that, get a key, get the next key, etc... " Always hated that. I couldn't be happier with the new Zelda's approach to gameplay.
Attachrate goes down because once the console gets cracked. 3rd world Countries buy the console Which is why the console sales skyrocket At least 30% of sold consoles are from people who pirate all their games. You can tell all games released previously have a higher attach rate regardless of the kind of game
@QtheLaserDude you can check how any game sold prior to the system 1st exploit/cracked etc And how Many games sold afterwards. You wont be able to find any released games after 2021 with over 30 million sales regardless of quality Edit: Just checking wipedia. You can see a drop from a cliff in sales. Even though the installbase triple since 2020
Echoes of wisdom aged like milk. It went from being a solid experience to a game I don’t even think I’ll finish. The combat is appalling, the platforming sections are abhorrent, and the Echoes system feels gimmicky
I don’t think it’s aged poorly at all. I think it depends on the person. Lots of people really liked and lots of others were disappointed. Depends on how you played it. Personally I think it was very good but I understand the hate for it because the echoes are gimmicky I’ll agree with that.
It didn't age like milk at all. It has its problems, but the combat definitely isn't one of them. The combat is fantastic if you're patient and willing to experiment with different echoes and bind.
BotW has lack of story elements. TotK has the good amount of story elements. EoW has too much dialogues and story elements, and we expect more action (less dialogues) in top down than 3D.
it frustrates me a bit that something like this is enough to scare you.. like Breath of the wild and tears of the kingdome changed the formula way more than echos did XD
If Zelda going forward changes in a way that leaves you behind... Does that make you just like the 2D Zelda fans that were left behind when 3D Zelda took off? 2D Zelda fans felt bitter because 2D Zelda became the "B-list" after Link to the Past and honestly didn't get nearly as much attention as 3D. And they hated Ocarina of Time for *ruining* Zelda. But Ocarina of Time style Zelda sold more then ever.
How were 2D Zelda fans left behind after 3D Zelda took off? Nintendo continued to make 2D Zelda games for years after Ocarina of Time; often releasing at least two 2D Zelda games per 3D game. They only slowed down on making new 2D Zelda games after Breath of the Wild released.
Not for nothing, but you do know there are a ton of indie games that are just the same kinda old zelda you like right? At their core, they're likely leaning on approaching things as artists. They don't want to remain stagnant, so why should they make the same kinda game every time if it doesn't really scratch an itch for em? It would be very easy for them to craft a game that ticks all the boxes, but is that really satisfying as a creator? I can only recall this happening with the New Super Mario Bros games and people started hating them. I wouldn't want that to happen to Zelda.
NSMB isn’t a good example because the problem with those games was they had like no personality, and the games were mid for even Mario standards. At least Echoes had personality because of its story and theme. If future Zelda games do that then everything will be fine.
@@dpackerman4203 I don't disagree, but my assumption is that they'll start losing it if they do sorta just keep making more of em that play the same. The first NSMB game, after all, was received incredibly well. Then it was just diminishing returns right after.
Arlo, your refusal to use the targetting system in this attached footage is fucken KILLING me 🤣 That moblin and peahat shoulda gone done MUCH faster if only you targetted them. I'd also say that the terminology of a 'wrong decision' in relation to a subjective topic is inappropriate. I would say it was 'ineffective'. 'Wrong' implies a more element, where as the latter relates more to the technical aspect of a plan.
As long as the top-downs keep the classic formula, I don't mind if the 3D Zeldas are used to refine the open-world formula. Zelda has always been experimental.
see this is the way. Mario, Zelda and Metroid all ought to alternate between 2D and 3D entries, each made by different teams.
Kirby too. And I would like DK to be on that list too. Give him a second shot at 3D. (Or even just make another 2D one, it’s been 10 years…)
i think something like this would generally benefit all long running series that have at least 2 major types of gameplay. monster hunter already does this switching between larger and slower-paced hunts i.e in world and quick fast-paced hunts in rise.
fire emblem really comes to mind for me as a series that would benefit from doing this by switching between more open sandbox-y experiences like three houses and more on rails gameplay like the gba games and por.
Top down isn't 2D tho
@@vivi1649 Splitting hairs. We all know topdown is the more accurate term, but 2D is the common vernacular informed by the context.
Zelda is starting to remind me of a band that does a string of amazing albums that are each moderate successes, but then they release an album that is still good but has a very different sound, but completely blows all previous albums out of the water in terms of sales. And then that album becomes their sound from now on.
so BoTW is Zelda's equivalent of the Black Album by Metallica
I mean that how Zelda has been every time. Followed the ocarina of time game model until they found another avenue to tell their story
Botw beats skyward sword without even trying. That style got stale.
fucking nailed it
@@iggypop2026I would argue that Skyward Sword had a better story, better side quests, better characters, better dungeons, and arguably better combat (depending on how much you prefer motion control shenanigans over physics engine shenanigans) than BotW.
If it wasn't for the fact that it was so linear, the Sky Islands so barren, and OG Fi being so intrusive, it would have held up just fine alongside the prior 3D Zelda games.
I really wish I could look at that quote with optimism, but when you recall the context of everything he's said the last few years, I believe he one BILLION percent took the wrong message and is still pushing ahead with this open ended design. I would just so infinitely rather he pour this energy into a new ip rather than dragging Zelda into it and insisting it's the same so we don't ever have to look back ever. I hate to say it but I really don't trust Aonuma with Zelda anymore, as long as he's making the main decisions I have no faith in the result going forward.
Same, honestly.
Echoes of Wisdom was a solid 7/10 for me. It was ok, but.... i miss the Oracle games, Minish Cap, and even Link between Worlds
It feels like the Zelda team has always had a particular fondness for specifically ALttP and LA, and it's their attachment to those that have allowed 2D Zeldas to live.
I really want something truly new, though. It doesn't have to be entirely unique or a return to form. But it'd be nice to have something take place in another kingdom again!
Wow, Arlo and I see perfectly eye-to-eye on Zelda. I don't think any of the bigger names in the Nintendo space have really said they were disappointed in BOTW/TOTK. I was. I enjoyed those two a lot, but they're not ALTTP. Echoes of Wisdom was honestly a step in the right direction. True dungeons, good bosses, okay music, and a story that doesn't have me getting the details in memories. It's much better. I hope we continue to see Zelda blend classic and more modern Zelda game designs. Maybe we'll see some of the more classic 3D games *truly* remade (like Ocarina of Time) in a modern engine (but not like the Unreal crap you see all over RUclips).
Thanks for the video, Arlo. I stand by you on this!
random, but have you played Tunic? i dont even like 2D zelda that much, but i thought that game was incredible. nails that "puzzle box" appeal of 2D zelda perfectly imo, with some puzzle solutions that genuinely blew my mind
I don't think the open endedness is the problem, but that you can just cheeze the puzzles too easily. Open ended puzzles can be tricky and interesting.
I agree. Open-opened puzzles are very tricky. In echoes, I know players can cheese many of the puzzles by using the water blocks to essentially skip the puzzle. The same thing happened in TOTK. It kinda defeats the purpose of the puzzle, which is a shame
i think the issue is that nintendo wants to balance their games in a way where anyone can beat it, regardless of their approach. so they kinda have to create a bunch of potential solutions to puzzles, which inevitably leads to many puzzles that can just be solved the same way cuz certain solutions just have so much use. i think they just need to find that middle ground. allow for creative "outside the box" thinking in puzzles, but don't give the player a nearly infinitely sized toolbox like in Echoes
I'm glad 2D Zelda is getting another chance to shine, but I hope they don't go ALL in on freedom like they've done with 3D Zelda. Sad that the sales are so low compared to the recent 3D games. I imagine with how much people love the new open world style of Zelda, going back to a more linear 3D game would result in similarly low sales.
One thing I think people are ignoring are that yes, new people are buying switches, however not everyone who owns a switch is actively using it now. I’ve barely used my switch this year and have mostly been playing games through my computer and steam deck. So while the install base is growing, not all of those numbers are for people who are actively using their switches or are just waiting for the next system to come.
The bit about not being inspired to try new Echoes- Fair enough if it didn’t work, but that is something that should be encouraged.
I can't stand the way they think they have to reinvent the wheel with each release. they leave so many experiences on the table by being stubborn
I agree. Another issue is that when they focus on doing something brand new, they neglect to Perfect ideas from earlier games.
Twilight Princess is a good example of this, it is Not a perfect game. But it does so many things so well that many fans of the old style continue to praise it for "Perfecting Classic Zelda".
I mean its a series that has been going on for 20+ years from time to time they are allowed to try something different and new . Some of their best games have come from innovative gameplay and ideas
yeah nintendo does this way too much, even outside of zelda. f-zero and star fox have been dead for so long cuz nintendo thinks they need some crazy new idea. when really, people would be happy with a standard sequel as long as it's good.
heck, even look at 3D mario. we easily could've gotten an odyssey sequel that refined on its many ideas that weren't fully fleshed out (smth like galaxy 2). but nah, nintendo wants to save 3D mario as a launch title. so the next game will inevitably be smth completely different from odyssey
I loved BotW. But I feel this new structure got stale already with Totk. I really hope they keep optimizing top down Zeldas without losing their essence.
Nah. It hasn’t gotten stale. There is still so much more they can do.
@@alecamp5369 i played hundreds of hours of botw, but could not for the life of me even complete the story of totk.
@@EmilAhvenainenhundreds of hours of both 💪💪
Same I miss the dungeon item juice combo. The metroidvania if you will of Past Zelda's. And I feel like they never really Incorporated that part into the overworld all that well, there's a lot of room for improvement and I'm worried we'll never see it now
Wdym by the structure? There’s still tons of potential for open world zelda. We already know that the next one is going to have some big changes anyway, it’s not going to be botw 3 or anything.
I really liked Echoes of Wisdom, but I think a lot of my enjoyment stems from me not engaging 100% with every single gameplay possibility. I forgot about Reverse Bind immediately, didn’t realize you could use the spider to bypass the majority of the environmental obstacles and limited myself to a handful of echoes that weren’t overwhelmingly op (not on purpose, I just lost interest in trying out new echoes after my inventory was full of fifty thousand of them). I’m actually glad I did those things, since the limitations forced me to think creatively instead of taking the easiest solution. After a while, specifically after getting the water block, things do start to feel a little easy and stale, but for the most part the exerpience was neat and focused. I hope the Zelda team loses their aversion to limitations and realize that all the freedom isn’t always a good thing 😅
0:26 Only four days, actually. EoW released on September 26th and the report accounted for up to the 30th. Considering how Switch games don't really have legs anymore, I doubt that means it's going to sell a crap ton, I'm guessing this is still the majority of EoW's total sales. I'm guessing we're gonna get like 4 million total? Maybe a little less?
I think you’re a tad harsh on Echoes but I understand.
Zelda should focus on the traditional style and just enhance story beats and combat. Personally would like to see a 3D imagining of the final level in Zelda 1. Labyrinth maze like dungeons (not like BotW) would be incredible.
Think of it like a pendulum. Hopefully it has reached its crux and will start swinging in a new direction.
I think the echoes worked because I found a few I liked and THOSE felt like the dungeon items
The Great Fairy made the game really fun, too. Some of those equippables REALLY felt like upgrades. The frog one? Changed the game.
i hope people can be a little nicer to fans who dont like open ended puzzles and the freedom paradigm now that even big popular youtubers are normalizing it... we arent all nostalgic and mean, its just taste
I think it’s the opposite, traditional fans are some of the worst people to interact with. Arlo even in this video comes off the same. The formula of older IPs change all the time but Zelda fans simply can’t accept it for whatever reason when everyone else points otherwise
Agreed. Its annoying to see people act like nuisances every time someone expresses their opinion that old zelda is better. I often hear them talking about open-world zelda as if its an objective improvement, when its really not. Both styles haves their pros and cons, its just awful for what is essentially a different type of game to completely subsume the older one. The open world games and traditional zelda can coexist; Metroid didnt abandon 2d after Prime came around.
Wish there was more 3D OoT style Zelda coming.
Somehow, that is basically how I read the title! But alas, no.
They should remake the Oracle games and then finish the trilogy.
As someone currently fighting my fourth-ever bout with Covid, I am HERE for all the Arlo content this week!!!
Get well soon!
In my case at least, when the switch came out, I was in high school and had a lot more time to play games. I bought most of the major releases. I am now college graduate and have a lot less time, and so I have skipped many games that looked appealing to me.
Now I only really pick up switch games that are supposedly absolutely amazing instead of simply great.
Yet you have time to watch topic arlo?
@ As background noise while doing work, or when taking a break, yes. What I do not often have time to do is play every new game as they come out. I have a backlog now despite rarely buying games.
If there is more original new top down Zeldas in the future that pleases me. Despite any fault this game might have, the echo mechanic is so fun to me that this game is amongst my favorite Zelda games I’ve played, about 15-17 hours in
I really liked Echos of Wisdom, even though they have things to improve. The development team is very talented.
I just hope they keep trying new things. The old formula was really stale for me. But not every game need to be like Echos of Wisdom. They can try new ways to hive freedom, like in A Link Between Worlds
This is really good news. I wonder if the top-down Zelda games will go back to having Link as the protagonist or continue to have Zelda as the protagonist. I suppose it will all depend on what core gameplay mechanic they come up with next; personally, I hope to see the return of something like Spirit Tracks, where the player controls both Link and Zelda.
Of course, Arlo posts this a day after I finally clear A Link Between Worlds (my first Zelda game). Absolutely wonderful game and what they did with Ravio was a clever reference back to Link to the Past.
Nintendo irks me with how they want to present new ideas, but don't have faith enough in their name alone to make a new IP, new experience. Breath of the Wild could have been a title to a new IP by itself, new characters, new stakes. Using the early film industry as an example, big directors wouldn't be the same if they had to use their best movies as a prop for their new projects...
Well, I doubt using the old formula everutime is all that good either.
Frankly, as long as the games are good, eh
It took the series back to its more seamlessly open-ended roots while expanding on the concept and adding a bunch of new ideas. It's progress and is necessary for older IP's to maintain relevancy.
@@DJWoozie That doesn’t make sense. It is obvious that BOTW was the Zelda game that the developers had wanted to make for a long time but couldn’t due to technological constraints.
Yes, don’t let the classic style of Zelda die Anouma. Just cause these games aren’t as big and open as BOTW/TOTK doesn’t mean they don’t have value.
Arlo, I say this without a hint of sarcasm - It sounds like you know exactly what you want from top down Zelda, why not see if you can actualize your vision in your own top down action-adventure game? I don't mean this as a "Don't criticize if you don't make" thing, I mean this as a "Spite can be a good motivator for creativity." - The Sapling seems to exist out of Frustration that EA didn't do Spore correctly, Super Dungeon Maker seems to exist because Nintendo won't make a Zelda Maker, and so forth. Obviously it wouldn't be easy, but... You might enjoy the process.
There have been a few top-down Zelda-like games: Ocean's Heart and Blossom Tales being two examples, and I'm currently making one in my spare time (though it's really more of a celebration of multiple old top-down games and it's far from finished); I think it would be neat to see more top-down Zelda-like games.
I think a factor that's contributing to releases getting less sales later in a console generation is because there's more options to choose from
EoW connected with me more than BoTW so I don’t mind this.
True for me too, at least when comparing EoW to TotK. TotK was just too big, and too much engineer simulator. Echoes at least was small enough that I could dip into the new system and really feel like I'm learning it, instead of just getting overwhelmed with the possibilities in TotK
The plan seems to have always been to have Grezzo take over 2D Zelda. Like how Mercury Steam took over 2D Metroid. Also Echoes of Wisdom does have item-based progression. Every object that you can turn into an echo is an item.
You also mentioned that each game doesn't need to have a revolutionary new idea but then praised the wall-merging mechanic from A Link Between Worlds, that was their big idea for that game. Mario and Zelda games are primarily built upon new gameplay ideas that radically alters how players interact with the world. Like FLUDD from Sunshine or time travel in Oracle of Ages.
Honestly, I think that Nintendo just has some sort of grudge against the TP and SS UI designers, considering that they keep using ribbon menus in games that focus on quickswapping between tools/abilities despite having learned that a snappy quickswap ring works perfectly for that in those two games.
Like, I'm pretty sure that putting the hand powers on a quickswap ring in TotK while leaving everything else on ribbon menues was specifically to give a middle finger to people (read: me) who had been begging to put everything on quickswap rings during BotW's era, to show that they could, but we're specifically costing not to. Especially with how they put the map on one of those permanent quickswap ring slots, even though you can usually access it with one button press most of the time.
You fool, you wonderful man and fool! You could have called the video "O Glorious Day, It Sounds Like More Top-Down Zelda Is On It's Way!"
The immediate backpedal at 10:34 was hilarious, I don't know if it was intentional or not.
He said enjoy them that much anymore and then enjoy to a degree, it makes sense
3:10 If Nintendo wanted to encourage players to use different echoes, they really missed a good opportunity to just add in a quick-action button that randomly spawns one of your echoes, at least for offense.
I know I would’ve used it, especially if it kept me active in the game rather than moving through a menu!
I suspect the new 3D Zelda game will be about building your own ships and sailing the seas. Also under water exploration. Wind waker on steroids. Where else can they take that botw formula to feel fresh? They've already done sky, land and caves.
I just hope Grezzo can keep making original Zelda titles. Even if EoW isn't everyone's thing, it clearly proved that these devs have talent and passion to do more than remakes.
While my college semester is still going, I’ve had more time and energy to just put towards this game to continue it, I love this game sm, still good to hear that it got that many sales at least! And yeah I agree that the form of using echos via scrolling isn’t great feeling, regardless of the gameplay design intent
Tbh, I think all echoes need (Zelda games with echo mechanics can be Zelda's "thing") is faster attack animations and not-shitty menus.
I agree though, open-ended puzzles kinda suck. But I think Echoes did it WAY better than Tears.
I didn't even buy TotK cuz I just didn't like how open BotW's dungeons were. It just felt boring and with no progression. Not to mention the weapon system made me never wanna use stronger weapons that'd break quickly.
I don't want open ended puzzles. I want a tighly designed Zelda game. And this doesn't make them linear. I would never call any of the 2D Zeldas linear, you still explored the world however you wanted to, but of course you needed the right items to keep moving forward, so eventually you'd realize "oh, I have to go to that dungeon first". That's called exploring.
I enjoyed Echoes of Wisdom for what it was. There was nothing spectacular about it. The one thing I remember most was towards the end of my playthrough, I had my energy full and I bought a bunch of smoothies that would refill energy. I just walked across the entire map in swordfighter form chugging smoothies.
But, that's not what I should remember the game for. lol Like I don't even remember, were there accessories to reduce energy consumption? Or was that just for the particles? If I can't remember that much, then the game didn't make much of an impact on me. It passed the time though.
FWIW, I absolutely did find myself trying out certain echoes partly because of seeing them while scrolling through my options. I'm not saying that it was the right decision, I'm just saying that they also weren't 100% wrong.
These sales only took in consideration the last few days of the month it released. Something like 5 days. So EoW had an amazing start
1:00 especially with Backwards compatibility confirmed
10:05 I was worried about this when the first Ultrahand trailer released and I've been talking about it since. It really sucks seeing people slowly coming to the same conclusion.
Also, I swear with every new interview it sounds like Aonuma is losing faith in the Zelda series more and more. First he didn't understand why people liked the linear 3D Zelda games, then he thought 2D Zelda had no place in the series anymore... While I'm happy he's starting to get his head back in the game, it doesnt exactly inspire confidence that the face of the Zelda series was thinking all of this in the first place
I agree. But the thing is with creative people like that, is they are their own biggest critics. They often think their earlier work is trash.
I was just watching a video yesterday that listed the very few Beatles songs that John Lennon liked.
@PalaeoJoe I know that feeling all too well
You’re awesome papa Arlo
How about… more Traditional Zelda
Regardless of perspective… I don’t want every Zelda to be a BotW clone
Creativity doesn’t grow on trees. If the team doesn’t know what else they can do with traditional Zelda, then we shouldn’t encourage them to make the same carbon copy repeatedly.
Echoes of Wisdom is the second Zelda game I’ve ever beaten! (the first being BOTW) and I LOVED IT!
Speaking of people buying less games near the end of the switch, I think a big contributing factor is how much prices for things have risen so people are being very picky about the games they buy. I can see this being a big issue for the switch 2.
hopefully we won't have to wait 11 more years for the next one, either :')
(No, I do not count Triforce Heroes.)
Here’s why as the install base grows sales don’t grow. 90% of people I know who own a switch bought it for a few specific games and it is now collecting dust in their living room. In the Nintendo bubble people think everyone with a switch plays it regularly but that is far from true
Its no wrong i prefer this style of selecting echoes
I really enjoyed Echoes of Wisdom, but the echoes really did become less and less relevant the more you got, because you got the one set of specific ones you used for everything and that was it, the UI was awful but i think the actual worst part was the lock on camera, because it was so inconsistent and would never lock on to what i wanted it to.
EoW gets an 8 from me, most of that comes from the story and being able to play as zelda, i think I would prefer a more traditional 2D zelda game starring zelda where she just gets spells like link gets items.
They could make more Zeldas like ALTTP, Link's Awakening, Oracle of Ages/Seasons, Minish Cap, A Link Between Worlds and Echoes of Wisdom, or more non-top-down Zeldas like Adventure of Link, Wand of Gamelon, Zelda's Adventure and Link's Crossbow Training? Hmm, tough choice...
I think its kinda dumb that there should be any doubt about this. But at the same time, there was a decade gap between NSMB games and Wonder and top down Zelda between this and ALBW were multiplayer game, remake, indie developed rhythm game, so fair enough. Not to mention Mario Kart 9's eternal absence, things just...don't happen sometimes.
Well, Mario Kart 9 is guaranteed a Switch 2 title.
Mario Kart 9 was likely a moble game. The next console game may be called Mario Kart 10
I truly hope for all our sakes that Echoes becomes the backbone for a genuine Zelda Dungeon Maker like Mario Maker 🙏🙏🙏💪🤣💪
Yeahs I’m saving my money for the next console tbh
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, but I'm so sick of the open-ended puzzles. Whenever I solve a puzzle in a way that is clearly not how the developers intended, I don't feel like I outsmarted the developers, I feel like I cheated. It was fun for Breath of the Wild. It was a fresh new take and I enjoyed it. But it just doesn't work for me long-term. I crave the structure and tight design of older Zelda games.
I miss the 2000's, when we got numerous 2d Zelda games, in between the big 3d games
I hope Xenoblade X doesn’t suffer diminished sales due to the end-of-lifetime dropoff effect
Switch 2 is backwards compatible so no. Hell, it will probably have enhanced graphics/performance on Switch 2.
Butternut Squash? Yes Please!
So much topic these days.🤗
I'm okay with another top-down Zelda. I do, however, do NOT want another Echoes of Wisdom. The echo and combat systems were far too frustrating for me. I didn't even finish EoW because I was too frustrated with it. Which is disappointing for Zelda's first solo adventure. I really wanted to like it. I really did. If another Echoes game comes out, I will not buy it, which is a shame since I've bought all the previous Zelda games that came out in the past 20 years
Somewhere Arin Hanson is celebrating
My only request is you give it a distinct art/graphical style and traditional combat, and make it its own game 😢 not a remake
Who is dying waiting for Arlo's Tears of the Kingdom?
Not really. It seems like it's gonna be one of those "I say I really like the game but talk only about it's problems thus contradicting myself" kind of reviews. He gushed over the game in one video, then brushed it off at the end of a different video. I don't care whether people love the game or hate it, but just be consistent about your opinions.
@@mr.awesome6011
It's called having complex opinions, not "contradicting" yourself.
You can like something and still dislike certain things about it.
@@mr.awesome6011 What are you doing here? Get out at this point. You can have nuianced opinions, if you can't handle it this isn't the channel for you fam.
Mr awesome, because everything has to be black and white huh?
As someone who has often struggled to enjoy topdown/2D Zelda because of the puzzle and progression structure (this also applies to most 3D titles in fairness, just less so), I felt like Echoes of Wisdom finally gave me what I wanted in a 2D Zelda. The open-endedness with easy ways to explore the map made navigating feel so much better, which was already a huge plus. The dungeons, usually a low point for me in these, were fantastic imo because the puzzles were structured in a way that I heavily preferred. Having one rigid solution to something has never been my cup of tea.
Uploaded 18 seconds ago, im glad to be here 🙂
And god willing more vigorous lore connections are implemented :P I'm not demanding massive story, as they've recently said that's not the Zelda process, but connected narrative and lore would be so much better. Echoes of Wisdom expanding the very cosmology of the universe was such a sweet surprise.
NSMBUD and TLOZLA are better than SMBW and TLOZEOW
BGFRT & CMBTT are better than FOANFGD & SLAWBDHSX
More Arlo? Yessssss
Once they stop adding that annoying depth of field and can get the game running at 60 is the day I stop dumping and modding it out.
I smell some oracle remakes coming. Would love a continuation of this story in a link-focused game too!
Copium delusional 🗿
No!!!! I want more like BOTW and TOTK.
it will
As long as Greezo isn't involved. I've had enough of their inability to set a framerate cap. They should be dismissed.
O Glorious Day, it sounds like more TopicArlo videos are here!
Watching the gameplay footage here, those brief moments where you slashed enemies with your sword looked more fun than the rest. Straightforward and satisfying.
Arlo I made a website with square space recently and used your code 😂 I just want you to know this bs is working
And Zelda fans still won't be satisfied until every game is a tired rehash of TP
Yeah I saw no one day that about the menu. It was built intentionally. But of course gamers always know better.
I've been saying for months people should consider that their thoughts on the menu just don't align with Nintendo's requirements for the menu. You may not like it but it's clear Nintendo had a design principle in mind with this.
More delicious than 8 burgers put together.
In my case, I'm just not buying any Nintendo games except Used until they drop, or at least lose, their PalWorld lawsuit.
I'm done with these freeform Zelda games personally. If the next one is like Tears and Echoes I might skip it for the first time in my life.
Thought the same after TOtK, but EoW was surprisingly fun for me. So I‘ll for sure get the next 2D title, but for 3D I‘ll have to wait and see unfortunately.
Think of it like a pendulum. Hopefully it has reached its crux and will start swinging in a new direction.
@@chrislevack405 Aonuma literally said a few months ago in an interview that “open solution” is here to stay. You are setting yourself for disappointed by thinking otherwise.
Who cares…I will buy it with my damn money 😂
I say, let the Zelda team do whatever they want. They’ve earned the right to have full creative freedom with the series
B-b-but muh lore😱
10 seconds ago. Hell yeah more 2d Zelda
I say let them cook.
I DO NOT agree that the echo list was only a small problem. I have not completed the game because of how awful it makes the experience for me. It was awful in totk, it's awful here, I'm tired of it. I genuinely don't know if this will be the first zelda game I don't beat. It's that bad for me. I love so much about this game. I love zelda. I'm not saying this to be a contrarian or special or whatever. It's genuinely that bad.
I hated it in totk too, this is why I didn't use the side scrolling list here at all. Pausing and selecting from the menu like I was selecting items in the old games in the pause menu actually worked really well for me and made it easier to find things
@enecofan888 I might go back and try this. Thank you!
Here we go with the unnecessary hatred towards open world Zelda again smh...
If anything, Echoes of Wisdom is the definitive blueprint of what Zelda should be going forward for both 3D and 2D while still maintaining the traditional elements that worked before and the game itself reflects that by fixing the problems that BotW and TotK had.
The fact that you are so against good change and you want Zelda games to get worse and regressed just because "new bad" is so annoying and lame.
@@Nintenguy128 the Zelda team knows what they are doing. I trust them completely with the IP
The funny thing is that open-ended exploration was the intention of the series from the beginning. The transition to 3D forced them into a more linear structure. And they have been trying to get back to that initial design philosophy for decades. So it's really ironic that people don't necessarily like it
It's not ironic at all. I'm also going to preface this by saying BotW is in my top 5 zelda games, and one of my most beloved games of all time. I'm not a hater of the new formula.
But, regardless of the vision of early zelda devs, those were NOT the games that were made. Games with structure and linear puzzles were the games we got for decades. Those were the games people came to know and enjoy zelda as. It makes total sense that many of the zelda fans cultivated throughout those years don't like the new direction. That isn't how the old games were designed. They don't care what the devs had in mind at the beginning. They care about the kind of game they fell in love with.
I really can't agree with you. I always dreaded dungeons in Zelda because they were the end of open-endedness. It use to be "do this, then do that, get a key, get the next key, etc... " Always hated that. I couldn't be happier with the new Zelda's approach to gameplay.
But I thought everybody wanted the non-linear stuff 🤷♂️
Attachrate goes down because once the console gets cracked. 3rd world Countries buy the console
Which is why the console sales skyrocket
At least 30% of sold consoles are from people who pirate all their games. You can tell all games released previously have a higher attach rate regardless of the kind of game
Almost 1 in 3 people? Could you support your statements with a source?
@QtheLaserDude you can check how any game sold prior to the system 1st exploit/cracked etc
And how Many games sold afterwards. You wont be able to find any released games after 2021 with over 30 million sales regardless of quality
Edit: Just checking wipedia. You can see a drop from a cliff in sales. Even though the installbase triple since 2020
Echoes of wisdom aged like milk. It went from being a solid experience to a game I don’t even think I’ll finish. The combat is appalling, the platforming sections are abhorrent, and the Echoes system feels gimmicky
I don’t think it’s aged poorly at all. I think it depends on the person. Lots of people really liked and lots of others were disappointed. Depends on how you played it. Personally I think it was very good but I understand the hate for it because the echoes are gimmicky I’ll agree with that.
It didn't age like milk at all. It has its problems, but the combat definitely isn't one of them. The combat is fantastic if you're patient and willing to experiment with different echoes and bind.
BotW has lack of story elements.
TotK has the good amount of story elements.
EoW has too much dialogues and story elements, and we expect more action (less dialogues) in top down than 3D.
it frustrates me a bit that something like this is enough to scare you.. like Breath of the wild and tears of the kingdome changed the formula way more than echos did XD
If Zelda going forward changes in a way that leaves you behind...
Does that make you just like the 2D Zelda fans that were left behind when 3D Zelda took off?
2D Zelda fans felt bitter because 2D Zelda became the "B-list" after Link to the Past and honestly didn't get nearly as much attention as 3D.
And they hated Ocarina of Time for *ruining* Zelda.
But Ocarina of Time style Zelda sold more then ever.
They should do like in the old days have 2d zelda come out while they are making 3d zelda games
How were 2D Zelda fans left behind after 3D Zelda took off? Nintendo continued to make 2D Zelda games for years after Ocarina of Time; often releasing at least two 2D Zelda games per 3D game. They only slowed down on making new 2D Zelda games after Breath of the Wild released.
Not for nothing, but you do know there are a ton of indie games that are just the same kinda old zelda you like right? At their core, they're likely leaning on approaching things as artists. They don't want to remain stagnant, so why should they make the same kinda game every time if it doesn't really scratch an itch for em? It would be very easy for them to craft a game that ticks all the boxes, but is that really satisfying as a creator? I can only recall this happening with the New Super Mario Bros games and people started hating them. I wouldn't want that to happen to Zelda.
NSMB isn’t a good example because the problem with those games was they had like no personality, and the games were mid for even Mario standards. At least Echoes had personality because of its story and theme. If future Zelda games do that then everything will be fine.
@@dpackerman4203 I don't disagree, but my assumption is that they'll start losing it if they do sorta just keep making more of em that play the same. The first NSMB game, after all, was received incredibly well. Then it was just diminishing returns right after.
Arlo, your refusal to use the targetting system in this attached footage is fucken KILLING me 🤣 That moblin and peahat shoulda gone done MUCH faster if only you targetted them.
I'd also say that the terminology of a 'wrong decision' in relation to a subjective topic is inappropriate. I would say it was 'ineffective'. 'Wrong' implies a more element, where as the latter relates more to the technical aspect of a plan.
As long as the top-downs keep the classic formula, I don't mind if the 3D Zeldas are used to refine the open-world formula. Zelda has always been experimental.